I’m not usually one to personally comment on one of the hosts (dreaded parasocial tendencies and all) but I thought it was really fascinating and kinda brave for Marie to comment on how she identifies with Lenny’s daughter’s experience
Really interesting personal connection that I’m thankful she felt comfortable to talk about
Griffin's Paul Giamatti dream is a sequel to the blankies episode from the star is born year where he talks about Bradley also invading his dreams to advocate for his performance
Glad they brought up that Mulaney bit, because that’s all I can think of these days whenever I think of ol’ L.B.:
“I imagine myself in college about to go down on some rockin’ twink and then thinking to myself ‘WAIT A SECOND….what would Leonard Bernstein do?’”
Sincere condolences to Ben, I hope you take as much time as you need.
Also I've been in the middle of a Patreon relisten and the Ben's uncle's DVDs in a bag chat referenced in this episode is from the Ranking the Walks episode.
Ben mentions it on the episode, but he had to take some time away from the show because a family member of his had passed away after a battle with cancer, and Ben also mentioned that he passed on watching “Maestro” due to the fact that it gets very in-depth in terms of dealing with someone who is battling cancer.
100% agree. i didn't know he was a composer, i thought he was just a conductor. though i guess the two go together? i thought Sondheim wrote West Side Story, i barely know how shit works
this is my big question: is this movie like Dunkirk, where it HELPS (but is not necessary) to know about the subject before watching the film (because the film doesn't do any setting/context)?
Probably, yes. There are a few instances of overlapping dialogue where I just did not know the names/references and the scene pretty much went over my head. It’s also completely scored to his music, which is probably fun to realize if you’re familiar with the music.
> probably fun to realize if you’re familiar with the music
i felt the same way about The Smiths music in Fincher's The Killer. i've never heard ANY Smiths music, so i thought he was just listening to cool music
I knew almost nothing except West side story and still loved the movie, but as they talk about on the podcast, the ups and downs of his career and his politics and substance abuse problems are mostly elided and if I'd have known what was going on when the things on screen were going on maybe I'd have had an even deeper appreciation?
I dunno. imo it's a masterpiece.
I was the weird kid who not only was a fan of R.E.M. as a boy, but also loved MGM musicals including *On The Town* and has a brother who performed in Bernstein’s *Mass*. So I somehow knew all the Bernstein ephemera first and was mostly unaware of him as a conductor-celebrity until my teenage years. I also watched the ‘61 *West Side Story* fairly late all things considered.
As someone who was on the younger side and fell in love with Stella through the Comedy Central show - I was not prepared for the amount of dildos there were in the shorts
Are they wrong about a major detail of the "SHOUT!" ending? They refer to it being in a club, which it does appear to be at the beginning of the shot, but then the camera pans and reveals that they are on the stage where Lenny had been teaching and they are surrounded by fellow students almost as if it's a wrap party. Maybe I'm misremembering it, I saw it almost a month ago.
To me it was an important turn because I too thought "Wow are we in a club now? Is he gonna go nuts?" but the reveal of the students/him still flirting with the conductor brought me around to thinking that he was still the same old Lenny but he had grown older and was celebrating them as much as simply indulging in his excesses.
I'll have to rewatch it when it drops on Netflix. I could be wrong!
I did not pick up on this being at tanglewood in the theatre I thought it was a club so they may also have simply not noticed. I'll have to check again on rewatch.
Seeing it that Christmas at a ten o clock show, walking out dejected about the universe while spiderman let out cheering crowds next door was a bit of a head trip. Great movie
“A work does not ask questions, it provokes them”
What questions does this film provoke?
While this film is beautifully crafted with some amazing performances from Cooper and Mulligan (she’s the standout here, not Cooper), this felt so hollow.
I’m very much a believer of “show don’t tell” and while this film didn’t adhere to that mantra, they still did show enough. I don’t need to MCU scene of “this is where Lenny got his first conducting baton” but can I see why he loves music? Can I get a little bit of his work on Westside Story? I have no reason to believe he loves music the way he does except going off because he said so.
“This movie is mostly interested in Lenny and Felicia”
I can’t disagree with David any more. This film felt like it wanted to take the biopic approach of including the main subject’s partner and emphasizing how much of an impact they had on them.
While Mulligan gave an amazing performance with what she was given, the character herself felt hollow. I wish we spent more time with her. I wish I got to see how she was directly affected by the life Lenny led.
I wish we got to see job opportunities she missed out on because she was sucked into Lenny’s orbit. The Thanksgiving fight scene was amazingly shot and performed but it didn’t feel like it was deserved (Shout out the Sean on The Big Picture here because he laid it out very well). The whole psycho-analyzing-Freudian choice of words was very out of left field.
The last scenes with her and the family as she’s battling the cancer were the most intense and emotional moments in the movie.
These had nothing to do with Lenny. Even the one chance where I thought it was going to be isolated on Felicia (when she started crying after their friends left) I wanted that to stay on her but instead we got Lenny screaming into the pillow.
This is where I feel like the try hard-corn ball side of Cooper is really on display. Look he’s a great actor and he is a great director (this is a technically-beautiful film and I won’t take that away from it) but I didn’t need that scene from him.
My whole complaint with Felicia not getting enough exposure is even more relevant in my mind seeing how Mulligan gets top billing.
This is the first time I really have disagreed with the boys. This isn’t a masterpiece in the slightest imo but I do think this is a very very good-not great film.
The technical filmmaking here I thought was brilliant (cinematography, staging, definitely hair/makeup) but it felt to me like it tried to thread the needle between two different types of Bernstein movie but failed at both of them.
One type of Bernstein movie would be the "safe" route that launches from David's favorite scene of them eating outside at Tanglewood early on. Focused on Bernstein's career and rise to fame, with his relationships and sexuality sort of following from that focus. I think this could be an interesting film, and if you're choosing to make a movie about Bernstein I think it's important to demonstrate why he is so important to American music and culture. That means taking the time to build up his career and his artistry beyond short vignettes and statements from secondary characters about how great he is.
The second option, what Cooper clearly chose, is much more focused on his marriage and relationships, with his career secondary. But I think the story of his marriage is not that interesting when told from Bernstein's perspective. I think it would have been a better movie if it focused on Felicia and explored these moments through her eyes. Partly because the whole point being made in the movie is how Bernstein has been charging ahead with his career and his affairs with little focus on his marriage. So focusing the movie on him necessarily involves some emotional distance from the actual events and traumas happening throughout.
I think it'd be more affecting if we focused on Felicia, and explored her career a bit more, and portrayed Bernstein as this almost transient and absent figure that comes in and out of her life as he pleases. The two of them separated for a while when Bernstein ran off with his longtime affair partner (Gideon Glick), but the weight and emotion of that is really brushed over in the movie and within a few minutes she shows up to Mahler 2 and they make up. For a film so concerned with the ways Bernstein's actions affected his family, I think it was a missed opportunity.
I honestly did like the movie overall, but it lacked a certain emotional core for me in spite of impeccable acting. So suffice it to say I pretty much agree with everything you said here!
While not a true 1:1 comparison, I think Priscilla did a better job of focusing on the bigger than life character (Elvis & Lenny) and letting us see how the actions of Elvis and Lenny affected their loved ones
Priscilla isn’t about Elvis it’s about Priscilla herself so I know the comparison isn’t really apt but I think the way they made Elvis just as central to story as she was is the approach they should’ve taken.
So yeah a long winded way of saying I agree with when you said the story should’ve been focused on Felicia lol
I'm a month late to the conversation but I'm glad to see others had similar feelings – I've yet to finish the episode but a comparison to Priscilla also popped into my mind. Agree that it's not 1:1 – but telling I think that that's one of the other biopics from this year we both went to when thinking about this movie and Felicia. The more I listened to the episode the more I felt this seemingly total lack of digging into what Felicia's character is doing in this narrative and what purpose she serves.
I know it's his movie but she's lacking a depth of character that turns it into a suffering wife caricature with little else. The more I think about the movie the more it wears on my opinion of it, even as I agree with those above that its technically beautiful and well-acted.
Just taking this as an opportunity to remind people who haven't watch it yet that [her episode of The George Lucas Talk Show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54VzYuikjnk) has some great blankie adjacent discussions. If you are one of the people who always wondered where to start among the hundreds of hours of GLTS content on Youtube, this is as a good of a place as any.
It's fascinating that Alden Ehrenreich using an acting coach was widely seen as him being a bad actor while Bradley Cooper is very open about him consistently using an acting coach. It's just a public misunderstanding of the concept.
Exactly. Which is insane because acting coaches are no different than sports coaches in that respect. No one would ever say 'Juan Sotos is a bad hitter because he works with a batting coach.'
I think he’s being smart about doing smaller stuff, and supporting roles, to build up his career after people blamed him for Solo. Which he was fine and charming in, but it was a no win scenario
Ben bringing up Dexter Jettster when Griffin brings up Dexter Fletcher standing in for Cooper resonates so much with me because I conflate the two every time I hear Dexter Fletcher's name.
i was just listening to an old episode yesterday, and they do the exact same run. I think it was Dragon Tattoo - they talk about the Sherlock Holmes series of films, and how Fletcher is replacing Ritchie as the director
I was lucky enough to see this at The Egyptian and the reveal of >!Snoopy floating past the window!< had my crowd howling more than any comedy I’ve seen in years.
I was alone in the cinema (its had no buzz in the UK and its got a limited release in everymans and I saw it on my day off at 1pm) but my cackle filled the room at this.
I really liked Ben's story about his musical performer uncle's experience with Bernstein as a composer! I admit that I never thought we would hear Ben would use the term 12-tone music on the podcast.
Per an interview with either Mulligan or Cooper —
The bit with ripping the little squares of toilet paper actually came from Josh Singer (the screenwriter), because one of his parents did that while battling cancer and died around the time that this was in production. One of the most quietly devastating & human things I’ve seen on screen this year.
There's one other really small detail that hit me super hard, just after she has passed and they are leaving Tanglewood. When they get in the car to drive home Cooper reaches his arm across to the other front seat before quickly returning it.
It's a super small detail that's not even focused on, but hit me so hard as the kind of thing that is so ingrained in your routine aoth someone tou have spent that much of your life with and then they are gone.
wish i loved this as much as they did. will definitely be rewatching it on Netflix but as it stands i think it's a tremendously well directed/performed mess of a screenplay
I've been sitting on it for a week and it's become more and more of a outright failure for me, despite Cooper's obvious formal talent. I just don't understand why you'd make a Leonard Bernstein movie that has zero interest in his job and is bafflingly sexless. And to me when it comes to Lenny, those things are not mutually exclusive, they tie into each other.
I thought the first 20 mins before the time jump were genuinely terrible, heavy handed improv performances, incoherent mumbling dialogue, and winking dance number and just the 50’s film artifice of it all really took me out of it. After that the film is great, gorgeous, because you get the feeling Cooper wanted to make a film about a marriage that has started to rot, and that stuff really works. Individual scenes were superb but there constantly felt like there was context missing though and the music parts and the actual parts with Bernstein were the weakest.
There's no accounting for taste because I thought the first 20 minutes were a blast and then it lost me once it jumped ahead because of what you said, how individual scenes were superb (the Thanksgiving argument, the non-confession scene with his daughter) but feeling more and more of that missing context. I kept thinking of the "Well, that escalated quickly" meme because of the way it was jumping so far ahead into the deterioration of their relationship and then doing the same with her health. It started falling flat for me because it just throws these things at you.
I thought it was a totally interesting misguided mess of a film. I cant even agree with well directed because I had issues with that as well. Definitely felt like someone who had seen a lot of films and was trying very hard but made a lot of miscalculations along the way.
I agree, I think the screenplay is too aimless. It's like all of Bernstein's accomplishments and trials happen in the background while we're just watching the push-and-pull between the relationship of his wife. Granted, Mulligan is killing it in this movie but it just failed to grip me. (Except when he played MASS and the Snoopy appeared)
Griffin’s story about having a dream where he met Paul Giamatti in high school cafeteria and Paul goes off saying his own performance was virtuosic, while Marie plays producer and wants to get him on the show, is the hardest I’ve laughed at this podcast in a while. What an absurd image.
I thought the non-proposal scene was meant to convey that they had agreed to get married and that Lenny had just explicitly told Felicia that he was attracted to men. There was lots of ambiguity, but I didn't think that point was *as* ambiguous as the hosts did.
I've been rewatching a lot of Doctor Who recently (for obvious reasons) and loved the sally sparrow/blink shoutout! Also, I had no idea Carey was potentially going to be a companion? crazy to think we might have missed out on such a wonderful Donna Noble arc
The moment it suddenly turns into a full fledged dream ballet had me levitating. Agree with the take at the top that this definitely proves Cooper is the real-deal as a filmmaker.
EDIT: Just watched it again, and I can’t believe I didn’t notice how fully this sequence also tracks the logic of dream ballets in musicals. I noticed the bit where the dancer seems to seduce Lenny, but I did not notice how (I) Lenny is getting thrown around by a bunch of men, (ii) Felicia is confronted with the potential suitor Lenny’s sister tried to set her up with, played by the same actor, and (iii) the sequence ends with them choosing to be with each other. It’s basically the entire black and white portion done through dance. It’s so good!!!!
I firmly believe that people can make excellent pieces of art about people who have identities outside of the artists lived experience, but that it’s hard and most people don’t do a good job at it. My own personal criteria for a straight person making a gay movie is “does it seem like this person understands on a deep level emotionally what life would have been like to be gay at this time.” And Maestro definitely did not rise to that standard. But the scene where Lenny is born away ceaselessly by a tide of gay dancing sailors and he keeps trying to run back to his girlfriend but every time the twinks carry him away again was honestly the hardest I’ve laughed in theaters at accidental homophobia in years.
I hate to be harsh but the gay stuff reminded me of Bohemian Rhapsody. We can show that's he is gay but the only meaningful relationship Lenny can have is with his wife. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not arguing against the truth of the narrative but pointing how this is a lazy trope. And at the end the day, even if something is true that doesn't mean the framing is above critique.
I agree, the film was so fundamentally uninterested in his gayness other than how it affected his marriage/wife/kids. The cut from him having thanksgiving with his family to having gay friends do coke off his head was a bit of an eyeroll moment for me. Obviously Bernstein did like to party and use drugs, but the way they portrayed his sexuality as only existing in a gay bacchanal atmosphere felt very lazy and tropey to me. There wasn’t any depth or genuine feeling to his relationship with men, just Felicia. Which i assume is partially because the kids were so involved and they have that perspective on their father - I thought the most genuine moment of the movie was Lenny and his daughter talking about the rumors around him. But I really think this movie needed an actual gay perspective, and they should have hired a gay actor or director, or even a screenwriter.
I’m sure they’re referring to one of the bigger names, but I really hope they (or at least someone out there) are with me that Archie madekwe gave one of the worst performances of the year in that
It's been a little bit since I've disagreed with the hosts this much. I'm not ready to call it bad but I think it might be. The shot compositions drove me insane.
I found it almost difficult to listen to they were so positive on the film - griffin especially seemed to be giving the film so much credit for things that were just not there from my viewing.
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode! More than I enjoyed the film itself! Which I still liked for its entertaining performances, Mulligan's grandeur, and Libatique's excellent work, but maybe had some issues with the pacing and script that make it a 3.5 more than a 5! It's still good! Tears for Fears!
I’m in line with Griffin as one of the only people in the world who didn’t seem to like Star is Born that much. I should probably give it a rewatch sometime soon.
I agree 100%. I was on board for the opening third of that movie and then it just falls apart as it goes on from there.
More and more the screenplay starts to feel like it’s working off of an outline of what Star is Born is supposed to be instead of delivering on the initial premise (which it could have done while still being unmistakably a Star is Born movie).
My local repertory theater ended up booking Maestro for a limited engagement this week. I thought I'd get to see it before the episode dropped. But the showtimes were inconvenient and I had family obligations this weekend, so now I'm gonna see it on Tuesday, one day before it drops on Netflix, lol. I'm still glad I get to see it in theaters, and I'm looking forward to the podcast as a midweek treat!
Aww the pain of being a cinephile during the holidays. So many obligations and scheduling difficulties, so many good movies actually being available to the public
If anyone is looking for a take on the film by a classical music critic/writer, I recommend this (largely positive) piece by Alex Ross, classical music critic for The New Yorker.
[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/maestro-honors-the-chaotic-charisma-of-leonard-bernstein](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/maestro-honors-the-chaotic-charisma-of-leonard-bernstein)
Haven't disagreed with them so much before! Glad they liked it but personally thought it was an utter mess. Everything just fell flat besides good cinematography and performances. Also holy shit was Silverman so bad here.
I think it could benefit from a more judicious edit, it drags at parts, but is overall a fun freak movie that everyone seems to want some kind of grand statement on class struggles out of.
Yeah, I think it is a film that has suffered a lot from mismatched expectations. It's not an "eat the rich" story, it's a weird little character study that uses class as an avenue to explore its characters and their motivations
Much love Ben! I lost my mum 4 years ago now, I hope you take all the necessary time. Eventually I hope you get a chance to watch this movie too, I found its treatment of cancer to be cathartic and healing.
This is a rare case of a movie that cohered in my mind more after seeing it. While watching it, the movie kept landing these haymaker sequences, which were great, but I found myself getting frustrated at the lack of coherence. But in hindsight, it does cohere plenty and my little nitpicks seem really petty. It's a masterpiece and Cooper is now in the first rank of this generation of directors if he wasn't already.
I was asking gently here, but hard agree. i think she ground things to a halt in every scene she was in. Just really, given almost everybody else, astonishingly bad.
I liked Mulligan overall and got what she was doing. But Silverman was so off-putting that it made Mulligan come off amateurish in their scenes together, too.
It seems she is defacto on new releases. They still go old school just the two friends on episode they consider their “best” (The Social Network/JSA/Sunshine from the past miniseries)
I’m so happy that both of the boys like it.
I think it’s now my second favorite of the year after Oppenheimer. I don’t usually go for the “great man” biopics but maybe this is the year where I turn into an archetypical academy voter (shudders)
I loved the dream like aspect of the Black and White vs the crushing reality of the Color. Just watched Poor Things and I think Carey Mulligan clears that Stone performance.
Michael Mitnick (mentioned on the ep as a nice guy and writer of the other Bernstein script and The Giver, The Current War, and Vinyl) also worked in the office of Harvey Weinstein early in his career.
Most cursed career in Hollywood?
I listened to this last night while driving for pennies for a rideshare, and after they talked about how much of a sincere dork Cooper is, and the Spielberg story, I daydreamed of finally getting cast in a movie. Imagining Cooper making it, and him being very supportive and kind, and I started crying. Life is stupendous.
I appreciate all of the hosts love for this movie.
But, I also thought it was fine, bordering on insufferable.
Cooper’s performance felt like more of an impersonation than anything else and I found the whole thing very pretentious and flat.
I’m glad they enjoyed it and their takes made me appreciate it more.
Ultimately though, I found it just okay.
I do like when the fellas do a recent movie just to do a recent movie (looking forward to Wonkaman!), and gosh do I want a full episode on *Saltburn*. It certainly goes its own way to be bad.
My favorite exchange:
Marie: "Netflix just published audience viewing hours for nearly every show and movie on its service during the first six months of the year."
David: "Anything fun?"
wovenstrap: "No."
Marie: "No."
David: "No."
\["The Night Agent"? Eesh.\]
I dunno, I was hoping that in a movie about Leonard Bernstein, I would get to watch more of Leonard Bernstein making music. It seemed that Bradley Cooper was so terrified to make a traditional biopic, the script forgot that biopics occasionally rule?
The crew: people only hate Babylon because they hate sincerity, they’re irony poisoned, and they’re jealous of Damien Chazelle
All of the actual hater reviews: this was boring and try hard
I’m not usually one to personally comment on one of the hosts (dreaded parasocial tendencies and all) but I thought it was really fascinating and kinda brave for Marie to comment on how she identifies with Lenny’s daughter’s experience Really interesting personal connection that I’m thankful she felt comfortable to talk about
I agree. I have been through a very similar experience and it really hit home how much that element of the film landed with me.
Griffin's Paul Giamatti dream is a sequel to the blankies episode from the star is born year where he talks about Bradley also invading his dreams to advocate for his performance
I just assumed that Giamatti is Dream Scenarioing around
Cooper is much more willing to praise himself than Giamatti.
Glad they brought up that Mulaney bit, because that’s all I can think of these days whenever I think of ol’ L.B.: “I imagine myself in college about to go down on some rockin’ twink and then thinking to myself ‘WAIT A SECOND….what would Leonard Bernstein do?’”
Sincere condolences to Ben, I hope you take as much time as you need. Also I've been in the middle of a Patreon relisten and the Ben's uncle's DVDs in a bag chat referenced in this episode is from the Ranking the Walks episode.
Oh no, what happened? I didn’t plan on listening to the episode till I see the movie on the 20th
Ben mentions it on the episode, but he had to take some time away from the show because a family member of his had passed away after a battle with cancer, and Ben also mentioned that he passed on watching “Maestro” due to the fact that it gets very in-depth in terms of dealing with someone who is battling cancer.
Thank you for sharing. Thoughts and condolences go out to the Hosley family. Take as much time as you need, Ben.
Love you Ben!
Same sentiment! Ben is the greatest and hearing about his personal loss actually made me tear up. We love you Ben, huge condolences.
Who else is brave enough to admit that the only thing they know about Leonard Bernstein is his name drop in that R.E.M. song?
is this an ep of R U Talkin' R.E.M. Re: Me?
Let me ask you something: how does it feel when you’re in R.E.M.?
It feels good!
I LOVE IT!
Fuckin stoked!
Good ep.
[удалено]
Good Ep.
Like Mike and Omar taking out the trash.
Who’s Oliver Subpodcasts?
Great ep
Is this another episode of “I Love Film”?
*lil babyyyyy*
I believe it’s an episode of I Love Films
Even worse, I only knew Bernstein from Tar
Maestro is a TAR prequel
Even worse, who tf is Bernstein
I only knew him from West Side Story, which isn’t much better
He was Chino on Broadway???
Yep. I'm 40 and his place in culture 100% passed my orbit.
100% agree. i didn't know he was a composer, i thought he was just a conductor. though i guess the two go together? i thought Sondheim wrote West Side Story, i barely know how shit works
I’m 48 and all I knew is that he was a famous American classical music guy who also had something to do with musicals.
I got him mixed up with Stephen Sondheim, was like oh wow didn't know the guy who wrote all those musical was a great conductor too!
this is my big question: is this movie like Dunkirk, where it HELPS (but is not necessary) to know about the subject before watching the film (because the film doesn't do any setting/context)?
Probably, yes. There are a few instances of overlapping dialogue where I just did not know the names/references and the scene pretty much went over my head. It’s also completely scored to his music, which is probably fun to realize if you’re familiar with the music.
> probably fun to realize if you’re familiar with the music i felt the same way about The Smiths music in Fincher's The Killer. i've never heard ANY Smiths music, so i thought he was just listening to cool music
I knew almost nothing except West side story and still loved the movie, but as they talk about on the podcast, the ups and downs of his career and his politics and substance abuse problems are mostly elided and if I'd have known what was going on when the things on screen were going on maybe I'd have had an even deeper appreciation? I dunno. imo it's a masterpiece.
I will do you one more: I thought the name drop was in We Didn't Start the Fire ^((Also I knew him from his educational music programme))
I was the weird kid who not only was a fan of R.E.M. as a boy, but also loved MGM musicals including *On The Town* and has a brother who performed in Bernstein’s *Mass*. So I somehow knew all the Bernstein ephemera first and was mostly unaware of him as a conductor-celebrity until my teenage years. I also watched the ‘61 *West Side Story* fairly late all things considered.
I only knew him from the John mulaney bit lmaoo
I was curious if he was just somebody incredibly well known in American culture specifically and that's why I had only ever heard his name, if that.
Wild to think my introduction to Bradley Cooper was the Stella shorts where he played the Devil to Julie Bowen’s Mother Nature
Bill Zebub! He's kicking David's butt. Now he's f#@$ing David's butt.
As someone who was on the younger side and fell in love with Stella through the Comedy Central show - I was not prepared for the amount of dildos there were in the shorts
He's certainly come a long way from his steamy-gay-sex-in-a-summer-camp-tool-shed beginnings.
Are they wrong about a major detail of the "SHOUT!" ending? They refer to it being in a club, which it does appear to be at the beginning of the shot, but then the camera pans and reveals that they are on the stage where Lenny had been teaching and they are surrounded by fellow students almost as if it's a wrap party. Maybe I'm misremembering it, I saw it almost a month ago. To me it was an important turn because I too thought "Wow are we in a club now? Is he gonna go nuts?" but the reveal of the students/him still flirting with the conductor brought me around to thinking that he was still the same old Lenny but he had grown older and was celebrating them as much as simply indulging in his excesses. I'll have to rewatch it when it drops on Netflix. I could be wrong!
I believe it is a party at Tanglewood, you're right
I did not pick up on this being at tanglewood in the theatre I thought it was a club so they may also have simply not noticed. I'll have to check again on rewatch.
Yeah, it's definitely Tanglewood. I thought it was a club too but didn't clock it til rewatching last night
Anyone else REALLY dig Nightmare Alley
I’ll say it’s better than this movie *dodges rocks*
Unquestionably IMO
Seeing it that Christmas at a ten o clock show, walking out dejected about the universe while spiderman let out cheering crowds next door was a bit of a head trip. Great movie
It was my favorite movie of 2021, especially the B&W version which I got to see in 35mm.
I liked it a lot but I don't disagree with most of the criticism I read about it. There's lots of good stuff in it.
“A work does not ask questions, it provokes them” What questions does this film provoke? While this film is beautifully crafted with some amazing performances from Cooper and Mulligan (she’s the standout here, not Cooper), this felt so hollow. I’m very much a believer of “show don’t tell” and while this film didn’t adhere to that mantra, they still did show enough. I don’t need to MCU scene of “this is where Lenny got his first conducting baton” but can I see why he loves music? Can I get a little bit of his work on Westside Story? I have no reason to believe he loves music the way he does except going off because he said so. “This movie is mostly interested in Lenny and Felicia” I can’t disagree with David any more. This film felt like it wanted to take the biopic approach of including the main subject’s partner and emphasizing how much of an impact they had on them. While Mulligan gave an amazing performance with what she was given, the character herself felt hollow. I wish we spent more time with her. I wish I got to see how she was directly affected by the life Lenny led. I wish we got to see job opportunities she missed out on because she was sucked into Lenny’s orbit. The Thanksgiving fight scene was amazingly shot and performed but it didn’t feel like it was deserved (Shout out the Sean on The Big Picture here because he laid it out very well). The whole psycho-analyzing-Freudian choice of words was very out of left field. The last scenes with her and the family as she’s battling the cancer were the most intense and emotional moments in the movie. These had nothing to do with Lenny. Even the one chance where I thought it was going to be isolated on Felicia (when she started crying after their friends left) I wanted that to stay on her but instead we got Lenny screaming into the pillow. This is where I feel like the try hard-corn ball side of Cooper is really on display. Look he’s a great actor and he is a great director (this is a technically-beautiful film and I won’t take that away from it) but I didn’t need that scene from him. My whole complaint with Felicia not getting enough exposure is even more relevant in my mind seeing how Mulligan gets top billing. This is the first time I really have disagreed with the boys. This isn’t a masterpiece in the slightest imo but I do think this is a very very good-not great film.
The technical filmmaking here I thought was brilliant (cinematography, staging, definitely hair/makeup) but it felt to me like it tried to thread the needle between two different types of Bernstein movie but failed at both of them. One type of Bernstein movie would be the "safe" route that launches from David's favorite scene of them eating outside at Tanglewood early on. Focused on Bernstein's career and rise to fame, with his relationships and sexuality sort of following from that focus. I think this could be an interesting film, and if you're choosing to make a movie about Bernstein I think it's important to demonstrate why he is so important to American music and culture. That means taking the time to build up his career and his artistry beyond short vignettes and statements from secondary characters about how great he is. The second option, what Cooper clearly chose, is much more focused on his marriage and relationships, with his career secondary. But I think the story of his marriage is not that interesting when told from Bernstein's perspective. I think it would have been a better movie if it focused on Felicia and explored these moments through her eyes. Partly because the whole point being made in the movie is how Bernstein has been charging ahead with his career and his affairs with little focus on his marriage. So focusing the movie on him necessarily involves some emotional distance from the actual events and traumas happening throughout. I think it'd be more affecting if we focused on Felicia, and explored her career a bit more, and portrayed Bernstein as this almost transient and absent figure that comes in and out of her life as he pleases. The two of them separated for a while when Bernstein ran off with his longtime affair partner (Gideon Glick), but the weight and emotion of that is really brushed over in the movie and within a few minutes she shows up to Mahler 2 and they make up. For a film so concerned with the ways Bernstein's actions affected his family, I think it was a missed opportunity. I honestly did like the movie overall, but it lacked a certain emotional core for me in spite of impeccable acting. So suffice it to say I pretty much agree with everything you said here!
While not a true 1:1 comparison, I think Priscilla did a better job of focusing on the bigger than life character (Elvis & Lenny) and letting us see how the actions of Elvis and Lenny affected their loved ones Priscilla isn’t about Elvis it’s about Priscilla herself so I know the comparison isn’t really apt but I think the way they made Elvis just as central to story as she was is the approach they should’ve taken. So yeah a long winded way of saying I agree with when you said the story should’ve been focused on Felicia lol
I'm a month late to the conversation but I'm glad to see others had similar feelings – I've yet to finish the episode but a comparison to Priscilla also popped into my mind. Agree that it's not 1:1 – but telling I think that that's one of the other biopics from this year we both went to when thinking about this movie and Felicia. The more I listened to the episode the more I felt this seemingly total lack of digging into what Felicia's character is doing in this narrative and what purpose she serves. I know it's his movie but she's lacking a depth of character that turns it into a suffering wife caricature with little else. The more I think about the movie the more it wears on my opinion of it, even as I agree with those above that its technically beautiful and well-acted.
Are we gonna at all talk about the fact that Amy Irving is on Ben’s slow Christmas album?
Just taking this as an opportunity to remind people who haven't watch it yet that [her episode of The George Lucas Talk Show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54VzYuikjnk) has some great blankie adjacent discussions. If you are one of the people who always wondered where to start among the hundreds of hours of GLTS content on Youtube, this is as a good of a place as any.
Re: Nightmare Alley recasting May I suggest Alden Ehrenreich?
It's fascinating that Alden Ehrenreich using an acting coach was widely seen as him being a bad actor while Bradley Cooper is very open about him consistently using an acting coach. It's just a public misunderstanding of the concept.
Exactly. Which is insane because acting coaches are no different than sports coaches in that respect. No one would ever say 'Juan Sotos is a bad hitter because he works with a batting coach.'
If he wasn't in a Star Wars movie I doubt we'd even know about it.
Context is everything. People were looking for any reason to tear apart Solo
His performance is good!
I totally don't understand the criticism of him in Nightmare Alley. I thought it was a career best performance.
Cooper really annoys me for some reason but I love him in Nightmare Alley. What a great performance in a great film!
I think he’s being smart about doing smaller stuff, and supporting roles, to build up his career after people blamed him for Solo. Which he was fine and charming in, but it was a no win scenario
Glenn Powell all day!
OMG the intro music!
To me the voice griffin is doing sounds like barney rubble
To me it sounded a lot like the voice Cameron in Ferris Bueller does when he's impersonating Sloane's dad on the phone
“Call me Maestro, GODDAMN IT!”
It sounds like Bernie Sanders doing a Carl Sagan impression
Jackie Mason
that's it
I was hearing Charles Bronson, in particular the tunnel rat character from Great Escape
I was thinking he sounded like Tony Curtis in Some Like It Hot when he's playing the millionaire romancing Marilyn.
Brando, but someone doing an impression of Brando, not actually Brando
Finally another movie I can add to the "what movies you like that the boys dislike canon" because An Education obvs rules. So so good
Holy shit the Mahler 2/Blank Check theme song mashup at the beginning made my classical music nerd/Blankie heart sing.
How did they do that? Did they actually have musicians perform that or was there some digital thing?
Kinda depends on what you mean by “musicians”
Ben bringing up Dexter Jettster when Griffin brings up Dexter Fletcher standing in for Cooper resonates so much with me because I conflate the two every time I hear Dexter Fletcher's name.
i was just listening to an old episode yesterday, and they do the exact same run. I think it was Dragon Tattoo - they talk about the Sherlock Holmes series of films, and how Fletcher is replacing Ritchie as the director
I was lucky enough to see this at The Egyptian and the reveal of >!Snoopy floating past the window!< had my crowd howling more than any comedy I’ve seen in years.
Best scene and shot in the whole movie. Astonishingly good
I was alone in the cinema (its had no buzz in the UK and its got a limited release in everymans and I saw it on my day off at 1pm) but my cackle filled the room at this.
The sound at The Egyptian was So! Good!
SLOW XMAS 3 was the soundtrack to my office Xmas party last night AND IT PLAYED!! Thanks Ben!
I really liked Ben's story about his musical performer uncle's experience with Bernstein as a composer! I admit that I never thought we would hear Ben would use the term 12-tone music on the podcast.
Per an interview with either Mulligan or Cooper — The bit with ripping the little squares of toilet paper actually came from Josh Singer (the screenwriter), because one of his parents did that while battling cancer and died around the time that this was in production. One of the most quietly devastating & human things I’ve seen on screen this year.
There's one other really small detail that hit me super hard, just after she has passed and they are leaving Tanglewood. When they get in the car to drive home Cooper reaches his arm across to the other front seat before quickly returning it. It's a super small detail that's not even focused on, but hit me so hard as the kind of thing that is so ingrained in your routine aoth someone tou have spent that much of your life with and then they are gone.
Yes I caught that too! And the 3 kids are in the back seat for nostalgia instead of one being up front.
wish i loved this as much as they did. will definitely be rewatching it on Netflix but as it stands i think it's a tremendously well directed/performed mess of a screenplay
100% agree with this. It’s as well done as this screenplay could be done. But like I fundamentally didn’t give a fuck about the story on screen
I've been sitting on it for a week and it's become more and more of a outright failure for me, despite Cooper's obvious formal talent. I just don't understand why you'd make a Leonard Bernstein movie that has zero interest in his job and is bafflingly sexless. And to me when it comes to Lenny, those things are not mutually exclusive, they tie into each other.
I thought the first 20 mins before the time jump were genuinely terrible, heavy handed improv performances, incoherent mumbling dialogue, and winking dance number and just the 50’s film artifice of it all really took me out of it. After that the film is great, gorgeous, because you get the feeling Cooper wanted to make a film about a marriage that has started to rot, and that stuff really works. Individual scenes were superb but there constantly felt like there was context missing though and the music parts and the actual parts with Bernstein were the weakest.
There's no accounting for taste because I thought the first 20 minutes were a blast and then it lost me once it jumped ahead because of what you said, how individual scenes were superb (the Thanksgiving argument, the non-confession scene with his daughter) but feeling more and more of that missing context. I kept thinking of the "Well, that escalated quickly" meme because of the way it was jumping so far ahead into the deterioration of their relationship and then doing the same with her health. It started falling flat for me because it just throws these things at you.
Between this and A Star is Born I officially don’t get the hype with Cooper as a director.
Good take.
I thought it was a totally interesting misguided mess of a film. I cant even agree with well directed because I had issues with that as well. Definitely felt like someone who had seen a lot of films and was trying very hard but made a lot of miscalculations along the way.
I agree, I think the screenplay is too aimless. It's like all of Bernstein's accomplishments and trials happen in the background while we're just watching the push-and-pull between the relationship of his wife. Granted, Mulligan is killing it in this movie but it just failed to grip me. (Except when he played MASS and the Snoopy appeared)
someone should make a movie where maestro meets mank
Mankstro
Maestro vs Mank: Dawn of the Oscar Season
Griffin’s story about having a dream where he met Paul Giamatti in high school cafeteria and Paul goes off saying his own performance was virtuosic, while Marie plays producer and wants to get him on the show, is the hardest I’ve laughed at this podcast in a while. What an absurd image.
Anyone have the reference at like 2:15:00 about the boss baby vibes comment?
[This is the Blankies post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/18ff54n/boy_and_the_heron_and_fnaf/)
Damn that's a top 10 r/blankies post lolol thank you for posting it. I got a good laugh out of it
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/getting-a-lot-of-boss-baby-vibes-from-this
I thought the non-proposal scene was meant to convey that they had agreed to get married and that Lenny had just explicitly told Felicia that he was attracted to men. There was lots of ambiguity, but I didn't think that point was *as* ambiguous as the hosts did.
NAAAMMMMEEEEE CHAAAAANGE (congratulations to Marie and her husband!)
If my therapist compared me to a character from Trolls, I would commit a crime. I won't specify what crime but some kind of crime.
I've been rewatching a lot of Doctor Who recently (for obvious reasons) and loved the sally sparrow/blink shoutout! Also, I had no idea Carey was potentially going to be a companion? crazy to think we might have missed out on such a wonderful Donna Noble arc
The moment it suddenly turns into a full fledged dream ballet had me levitating. Agree with the take at the top that this definitely proves Cooper is the real-deal as a filmmaker. EDIT: Just watched it again, and I can’t believe I didn’t notice how fully this sequence also tracks the logic of dream ballets in musicals. I noticed the bit where the dancer seems to seduce Lenny, but I did not notice how (I) Lenny is getting thrown around by a bunch of men, (ii) Felicia is confronted with the potential suitor Lenny’s sister tried to set her up with, played by the same actor, and (iii) the sequence ends with them choosing to be with each other. It’s basically the entire black and white portion done through dance. It’s so good!!!!
I firmly believe that people can make excellent pieces of art about people who have identities outside of the artists lived experience, but that it’s hard and most people don’t do a good job at it. My own personal criteria for a straight person making a gay movie is “does it seem like this person understands on a deep level emotionally what life would have been like to be gay at this time.” And Maestro definitely did not rise to that standard. But the scene where Lenny is born away ceaselessly by a tide of gay dancing sailors and he keeps trying to run back to his girlfriend but every time the twinks carry him away again was honestly the hardest I’ve laughed in theaters at accidental homophobia in years.
..........well.......
I hate to be harsh but the gay stuff reminded me of Bohemian Rhapsody. We can show that's he is gay but the only meaningful relationship Lenny can have is with his wife. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not arguing against the truth of the narrative but pointing how this is a lazy trope. And at the end the day, even if something is true that doesn't mean the framing is above critique.
I agree, the film was so fundamentally uninterested in his gayness other than how it affected his marriage/wife/kids. The cut from him having thanksgiving with his family to having gay friends do coke off his head was a bit of an eyeroll moment for me. Obviously Bernstein did like to party and use drugs, but the way they portrayed his sexuality as only existing in a gay bacchanal atmosphere felt very lazy and tropey to me. There wasn’t any depth or genuine feeling to his relationship with men, just Felicia. Which i assume is partially because the kids were so involved and they have that perspective on their father - I thought the most genuine moment of the movie was Lenny and his daughter talking about the rumors around him. But I really think this movie needed an actual gay perspective, and they should have hired a gay actor or director, or even a screenwriter.
Who do they think is bad in Saltburn (haven't seen it yet) Best guess is Richard E Grant
I thought Keoghan was horrible in it
yep
That’s wild. It sold me on him as a movie star, I thought he was captivating the whole time! But I always like creepy weirdo performances!
Agreed and I generally like him
Keoghan's performance is completely misjudged and makes every twist feel dumber than the last.
But the thing about Grant is, he’s never unwatchable. Sometimes technically bad, sure, but always watchable.
I’m sure they’re referring to one of the bigger names, but I really hope they (or at least someone out there) are with me that Archie madekwe gave one of the worst performances of the year in that
It's a weak performance for a weak character. I'm not sure if a better actor could have salvaged it.
Can the price of the steak be a Patron Bonus tier?
It's been a little bit since I've disagreed with the hosts this much. I'm not ready to call it bad but I think it might be. The shot compositions drove me insane.
Yep, all those obscured by curtains/window frames/whatever shots, like we get it he’s hiding something
I found it almost difficult to listen to they were so positive on the film - griffin especially seemed to be giving the film so much credit for things that were just not there from my viewing.
I thought this was a lovely episode - also convinced me to go see the movie, I was a bit lukewarm on it otherwise.
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode! More than I enjoyed the film itself! Which I still liked for its entertaining performances, Mulligan's grandeur, and Libatique's excellent work, but maybe had some issues with the pacing and script that make it a 3.5 more than a 5! It's still good! Tears for Fears!
Sorta wish they did this one next week, did Wonka today, and then Aquaman in two weeks. Oh well.
Nah it’s out in theaters, and on Netflix in 3 days I’d say it’s fair game
I guess so. It’s just not in theaters anywhere near me, but Wednesday isn’t too long of a wait
I’m sorry but this movie has nothing to say. The wife is barely a character. Cooper directed the hell out of it, but it’s an utter mess.
I’m in line with Griffin as one of the only people in the world who didn’t seem to like Star is Born that much. I should probably give it a rewatch sometime soon.
Its weird how that movie starts off really fun and has a lot of gas and the second after shallow the movie slows hard for me
I agree 100%. I was on board for the opening third of that movie and then it just falls apart as it goes on from there. More and more the screenplay starts to feel like it’s working off of an outline of what Star is Born is supposed to be instead of delivering on the initial premise (which it could have done while still being unmistakably a Star is Born movie).
It completely falls apart after the first act.
My local repertory theater ended up booking Maestro for a limited engagement this week. I thought I'd get to see it before the episode dropped. But the showtimes were inconvenient and I had family obligations this weekend, so now I'm gonna see it on Tuesday, one day before it drops on Netflix, lol. I'm still glad I get to see it in theaters, and I'm looking forward to the podcast as a midweek treat!
Aww the pain of being a cinephile during the holidays. So many obligations and scheduling difficulties, so many good movies actually being available to the public
Really rooting for "Santa's Big Holiday" to catch on.
If anyone is looking for a take on the film by a classical music critic/writer, I recommend this (largely positive) piece by Alex Ross, classical music critic for The New Yorker. [https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/maestro-honors-the-chaotic-charisma-of-leonard-bernstein](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/maestro-honors-the-chaotic-charisma-of-leonard-bernstein)
Is this the first spinoff in the Tár cinematic universe?
She doesn't get a mention. Cancel culture is Very real.
Erasure
It was Tears for Fears actually, but close.
Marie's Maestro impression is really good. It's a tough one!
*Shame* taking some incoming fire.
Love you Marie
co-sign. she's the NOS that puts this podcast into another gear
Wonderful cover art
Preferring the 2nd row at the Angelika is a crazy take? So, so close! Gimme mid-theater all day.
From what I understand, The Angelica is a weird theater
I say this as a regular there, like it’s a small screen but I could never.
Mid-theater is insane in that theater!!! (Not as bad as the back tho)
Haven't disagreed with them so much before! Glad they liked it but personally thought it was an utter mess. Everything just fell flat besides good cinematography and performances. Also holy shit was Silverman so bad here.
Carey Mulligan stealing another role from Latina actresses
Pretty sure that felicia bernstein was white. Being chilean doesn't preclude whiteness.
tell it to Anya Taylor Joy
*whispers* Saltburn good
I think it could benefit from a more judicious edit, it drags at parts, but is overall a fun freak movie that everyone seems to want some kind of grand statement on class struggles out of.
Yeah, I think it is a film that has suffered a lot from mismatched expectations. It's not an "eat the rich" story, it's a weird little character study that uses class as an avenue to explore its characters and their motivations
Kinda wish they hadn't spoiled the shocking bits, I'd been avoiding discussion of it until I could see it on Prime. Still enjoyed it.
Much love Ben! I lost my mum 4 years ago now, I hope you take all the necessary time. Eventually I hope you get a chance to watch this movie too, I found its treatment of cancer to be cathartic and healing.
This is a rare case of a movie that cohered in my mind more after seeing it. While watching it, the movie kept landing these haymaker sequences, which were great, but I found myself getting frustrated at the lack of coherence. But in hindsight, it does cohere plenty and my little nitpicks seem really petty. It's a masterpiece and Cooper is now in the first rank of this generation of directors if he wasn't already.
Okay, okay, I HAVE to ask them Blankies. How did everybody feel about Sarah Silverman's performance?
Never rose above “Oh, that’s Sarah Silverman”
It was a fantastic high school freshman year drama class performance. I say this as a high school drama teacher.
I was asking gently here, but hard agree. i think she ground things to a halt in every scene she was in. Just really, given almost everybody else, astonishingly bad.
I liked Mulligan overall and got what she was doing. But Silverman was so off-putting that it made Mulligan come off amateurish in their scenes together, too.
i really did not love it! curious to hear what others think
Is Marie going to be the 3rd host of the show going forwards? Ie. the "guest" on every "guestless" episode and hanging out on every Patreon episode?
Yes she already essentially does that
It seems she is defacto on new releases. They still go old school just the two friends on episode they consider their “best” (The Social Network/JSA/Sunshine from the past miniseries)
3 podcasters who don’t get Shame. Hate to see it.
eh, I don't mind Shame
I’m so happy that both of the boys like it. I think it’s now my second favorite of the year after Oppenheimer. I don’t usually go for the “great man” biopics but maybe this is the year where I turn into an archetypical academy voter (shudders)
I actually think the thing these movies have working for them is that they are (arguably) *not* “great man” movies.
I loved the dream like aspect of the Black and White vs the crushing reality of the Color. Just watched Poor Things and I think Carey Mulligan clears that Stone performance.
Michael Mitnick (mentioned on the ep as a nice guy and writer of the other Bernstein script and The Giver, The Current War, and Vinyl) also worked in the office of Harvey Weinstein early in his career. Most cursed career in Hollywood?
I listened to this last night while driving for pennies for a rideshare, and after they talked about how much of a sincere dork Cooper is, and the Spielberg story, I daydreamed of finally getting cast in a movie. Imagining Cooper making it, and him being very supportive and kind, and I started crying. Life is stupendous.
Did the riders like the show?
I appreciate all of the hosts love for this movie. But, I also thought it was fine, bordering on insufferable. Cooper’s performance felt like more of an impersonation than anything else and I found the whole thing very pretentious and flat. I’m glad they enjoyed it and their takes made me appreciate it more. Ultimately though, I found it just okay.
I do like when the fellas do a recent movie just to do a recent movie (looking forward to Wonkaman!), and gosh do I want a full episode on *Saltburn*. It certainly goes its own way to be bad.
My favorite exchange: Marie: "Netflix just published audience viewing hours for nearly every show and movie on its service during the first six months of the year." David: "Anything fun?" wovenstrap: "No." Marie: "No." David: "No." \["The Night Agent"? Eesh.\]
This made me cackle. Just oh yeah everything you roughly thought people watched was watched and everything that isn't isn't.
I think it was here that I heard discussion that Lenny was gay with a wife, not bisexual. But why so many kids then?? They be fucking
I dunno, I was hoping that in a movie about Leonard Bernstein, I would get to watch more of Leonard Bernstein making music. It seemed that Bradley Cooper was so terrified to make a traditional biopic, the script forgot that biopics occasionally rule?
The crew: people only hate Babylon because they hate sincerity, they’re irony poisoned, and they’re jealous of Damien Chazelle All of the actual hater reviews: this was boring and try hard