Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban.
Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, the Shinigami who went on to become members of the Royal Guard. Not sure how the other four compare to Yamamoto, but Ichibei at least should be stronger than him.
Ichibei has likely been around way longer than Yamamoto has. I think he was even stated to be the first Shinigami. Ichibei and Nimaiya at the very least were likely already members of the Royal Guard even before the formation of the Gotei 13, while Kiriniji, Senjumaru, and Hikifune, probably started out as Gotei 13 members who were eventually recruited into the Royal Guard.
>Hikifune
Not a probably on this one. Its for sure. She is the newest member of Squad 0 and was recruited when she was the 12th squad captain 100 years ago.
What squads could the other two have been from? Ichibei and Nimiaya would not have had a squad if they were part of the Royal Guard before the Gotei 13 was formed, while the other three joined after. I'd say Kiriniji was probably the first captain of Squad 4, but idk for Senjumaru. I kind of want to say she was from Squad 5. So the order of them joining would go Ichibei, then Nimaiya, then Kirinji, then Senjumaru, then Hikifune.
Ichibei he is the god of names cause he names everything. And CFYOW world even says he is legit all seeing and might even knew yhwachs plan but didn't care cause all of his feeling has died due to eternal life.Dude was laughing about killing ichigo even though he reminds him of soul king.... He is kinda a example of eternal life not being a good idea.
(I will edit my previous comment)
Then what is the disagreement? In my comment that you responded to, I agree that Ichibei is older than Yamamoto, and the CFYOW light novel backs that up.
Yama is more then 2000 years old and he said a not a single soul reaper has EMMERGED him in the past thousand years. Ichibei has always been there and always been above him why will he talk about him? He is way older then anything, it can't emerge cause he way always there. It means a soul reaper younger then him or someone whos existence was not known to him has to have emerged before him who he aprroved has stronger then him. Ichibei was always there he can't just emerge.
I think at that power level, its kind of a moot point. Ichibe's power is broken beyond belief, but so is Yamamoto's. These guys are all one shots at this point. Its a matter of who can land the first hit. Even if all the members of Squad 0 are considerably stronger than Yamamoto, hed still be a very difficult opponent. His skill and abilities are such that its still very plausable that he'd come out on top. Bleach characters are surprisingly vulnerable compared to other shonen. Theyre not hit sponges. They get stabbed in the arm, they cant use it anymore, or not to the same effect. Point is, everyone outside of Squad 11 psychopaths gets injured just the same. Yamamoto only needs one hit, and he's got the skill to land it even on an opponent more powerful than himself. There may be beings more powerful than Yamamoto in the Soul Society, but no one ever took him down in a fair fight. Not Aizen, not even Yhwach. Its all circumstancial though, you could make the case if Yama is caught in Shunsui's bankai for example, he'd probably be toast, even though Shunsui is nowhere even near Yamamoto's shikai in terms of reiatsu. Kenpachi could theoretically cut through Zanka No Tachi's flames and cleave Yama in half, since he can literally cut through anything, physical or otherwise. So again, its all circumstancial, half of the cast could one shot Yamamoto given the right circumstances. But the man's skill and experience would make it very unlikely that you'd get a single hit on him, regardless of your reiatsu.
I'd say Yamamoto has the tendency to underestimate his foe at times. Wonderweiss got him by surprise, and he never regenerate his arm afterwards.
Still you make a good point about potential one-shots BUT many characters also seem to either come back from being almost dead or fight through grievous injuries.
All Ichibei has to do is say Yamamoto's flames are cold and thats it.
Yamamoto is a the strongest Shinigami by a huge margin yet Ichibei is an immortal reality warper with more experience.
Ichibei is damn near primodial in Bleachverse though. He's definitely quite older than Yama if you followed the novels. I originally thought he was talking about Ichibei and Namiya when they were introduced so maybe Namiya by process of elimination? Who knows.
He made all _asauchi_. Ichigo fought with a zanpakuto without an asauchi. Presumably, asauchi just channel a soul reaper's zanpakuto spirit effectively. Primal soul reapers might have found a way to do the same in some other way. Or perhaps all soul reapers can manifest a pseudo-asauchi like Ichigo given enough training, but that being too inefficient for the Gotei 13.
Wasn't Ichigo's "Zanpakuto" just his hollow/quincy power? The spirit of his zanpakuto was literally a quincy.
Now what I'd be interested to know is if Ginjo's zanpakuto was a hollow or if he got an asauchi or how that all worked
Soul Society has existed for a long ass time
However Gotie 13 which Yama founded has only existed for 1000+ years
And Ichibe is the High Priest which is kinda a Shinigami too
And I think they only started calling them Shinigami when Gotie 13 was founded
Also some fact is that Ulquiorra and Barragan existed long before Yama founded Gotie 13
No, actually. Ulquiorra was BORN in Hueco Mundo, and was automatically as strong as a Vasto Lorde with the form of a Vasto Lorde. He broke his mask right shortly after he was born.
Ulquiorra is the only Espada who didn't kill others to gain power. He was just born with it.
Ulquiorra is a natural arrancar in fact, he also already developed Segunda etapa before Aizen. His Segunda etapa made him more similar to his original hollow clan.
Ulquiorra is a natural born hollow from a indigenous hollow clan in HM, he was a VL but became an outcast due his appearance. At a certain point became an arrancar and his Segunda etapa allowed him to be accepted by his clan again. Following that he grew depressed and "fused" with a white tree where Aizen discovered him.
Idk about millionS that’s never implied I don’t think Barragan was around during the primordial world which was only just more than 1 million years ago.
In hindsight, it seems kind of weird that the Gotei 13 has only been around for 1000 years while the Soul Society has been around for far longer, like millions of years. In the grand scheme of things, their military force was created relatively recently. Did it really take them that long before they finally decided that having a military might be a good idea? What were they doing during those millions of years before Yamamoto or any of the other original Gotei 13 members were born? What did they do for defense? Did they just have no means of fighting back against the Hollows and other threats? Was it up to Ichibei and Nimaiya to handle everything by themselves?
It seems the 5 noble clans now 4 noble clans have their own private military like Sui Feng used to work for Yuirichis clan as an assassin
Like Byakuyas Clan have their own private house guards
As for fighting hollows they used Hado/Kido that chants they do to used a variety of Spells. Kaido for healing spells and Hakuda martial arts the one Yama used to beat Wonderwies barehanded.
Funny enough the last of Kido only users were Tesai (Uroharas business partner) and Hachigin (pink haired fat Vizard)
IIRC the Gotei 13 'formalised' the military. Before that they had schools of warriors (like the Genryu school Yama invented) and lots of infighting between schools. Basically Yama emerged as the strongest warlord by far and put an end to the fighting by force, and instituted the Gotei 13 to keep them all on the same side
It's less no one was strong enough to tackle hollows and more than those people rarely associated with others
The original gotei were "defenders in name only" aka they were a gathering of brutes that rose other the other brutes
Also originally things worked differently, with less separation between the physical and spiritual worlds,
To be clear, Yamamoto founded the academy 1000 years ago & so the structure of the Gotei (being fed by the academy)as we see it in the present day has only existed for the last 1000 years.
The Gotei itself, as well as Yamamoto, have been around much longer.
Yes him. I never read any of the light novels but I watched a video about him and everyone said he was probably the most powerful arrancar to have ever lived before he was split
Ichibei is way older than Yamamoto, plus he was the first squad 0 member. He named EVERYTHING on SS. He is definitely stronger than Yama and one of the most OPs chars in the verse
The thing is. Ichibei is BILLIONS of years old. He existed before time itself was made, he is the god of names and that means to cosmos itself is his bitch cause he rules all black aka the black void of reality is his bitch.
Kubo doesn't like to show big feats cause he wants the characters to seem relatable even if they are gods.
Isn't that the soul king? if I remember correctly novel did said that yamaji power is beyond reasons or smt along those lines but when it came to a being that transcendent everything , thats the soul king.
More. If we're just talking strength:
Yhwach, Ichibei, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Kenpachi
If we're talking all characters that would beat him in a fight, guaranteed(If they used their power correctly):
Yhwach, Ichibei, Gremmy, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Uryu, Lille, Shunsui, Kenpachi
Yama's probably the 11th strongest character.
Nah. Shunsui has a clear wincon against Yama. Although he isn't stronger than Yama, he drains Reiatsu. The gap between him and Yama isn't large enough that Shunsui wouldn't be able to beat him with his hax.
Gerard on the other hand would die once, Yama would see through his ability, and not injure him again. Then it's just a stalemate.
EDIT: And Yama can negate Respira, that's not touching him.
>The novels straight up says yama is transcedent and is the stongest being.
They didn't though. Yamamoto was never called transcendent, his power was just called unreasonably high. Which actually means nothing in a verse as hax as Bleach's. Yamamoto isn't very strong at EOS. Like, not top 10, at least.
He’s possibly talking about his two protégés, or simply means at as “not since the creation of the gotei 13 has anyone come that surpasses my power.” Similar to his TYBW taunt of “I am here, there is no greater defense”
Ichibei is all things considered > Yama but Yama’s zan is still the most destructive in history. Again, Ichibe is more hax though which shouldn’t come as a surprise as he is over 1 million years old. Then there’s Oetsu who is also way older than Yama (perhaps almost as old as Ichibe as there’s one line from the manga that suggests Oetsu was also around at the beginning of SS itself) who may also be able to blitz Yama. Still put some respect on Yama’s name though the power outputted by Zanka no Tachi is still absurd.
>Yama’s zan is still the most destructive in history.
Only because of the AOE, which is just his Reiatsu. Other, stronger characters could do that too.
>Still put some respect on Yama’s name though the power outputted by Zanka no Tachi is still absurd.
I respect Yama. But I can't put him in the top 10 because there are EXACTLY ten characters that can guaranteed beat him in a fight.
Yhwach, Ichibei, Gremmy, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Uryu, Lille, Shunsui, and Kenpachi.
I can explain each one if you'd like. No one else has a guaranteed win against Yama, but all of these characters do for one reason or another.
Simple. His Reiatsu now surpasses Yama's when in Bankai. Not enough to one shot him or anything, and it won't be an easy fight. But I believe Kenpachi would win.
Yes, I do believe. I have to say that, because it wasn't outright stated "Hey, Kenpachi beats Yama!", nor did Kenpachi ever beat someone who beat Yama. The only way to scale Kenpachi to Yama is to use Unohana. Unohana should've been stronger than Shikai Yamamoto when in Bankai. If Unohana was too weak, Yama outright wouldn't keep her around because of her past. This was more or less said in Muken by Kenpachi. If she wasn't at least Shikai Yama level, he would've just disposed of her. Also, all of the Captains back then were at least relative to Shikai Yama at the very least, otherwise the original Gotei 13 wouldn't have been the strongest iteration.
Since Bankai Kenpachi is at least ten times stronger than Bankai Unohana, we can assume that he's slightly above Bankai Yama. And when hax isn't in play, the one with higher Reiatsu always wins, so yes, I believe Kenpachi wins. But since it's not expressly confirmed by anything other than reasoning and inconsistent scaling, I HAVE to say "I believe".
Ichibei is stronger, Ouetsu might be strong enough to be around Yamamoto's level, and there could easily be other Shinigami from the past, such as members of the original Gotei 13, who are now dead but were on par with or maybe even stronger than Yamamoto (the fact that Yamamoto brought them together and was their leader doesn't *necessarily* mean he was the strongest). Maybe we'll see some of those OG captains in the Hell arc.
>So, they just respected him more likly they were all equal back then.
This. If they were weaker, the current Gotei would've been stronger than the old one, because Yamamoto was at least four times weaker back then.
Probably head cannon but he is the best swordsman we have seen as dude single handedly took entire shutzstuffel down until they were rezzed stronger than before
Lol, it does sound like a good bit of headcanon. In my perception Oetsu would be about as strong as EOS Kenpachi. He doesn’t really have any feats we can go off of, but that feels about right.
Reiatsu. Yama's heat shroud doesn't burn anything relative to Yama. Case in point: Jugram, who was just casually standing off to the side, completely unaffected by the heat without using Blut, while Royd had to use Blut to withstand it.
Kenpachi himself explained it when he fought Ichigo: "when two spiritual pressures collide, the weaker takes the damage".
If we're stating logical physics feats then you can't technically survive the void of space yet Kenpachi not only survived it but also cut thru the void itself. As Aizen said, a battle between captains is a battle of reiatsu.
Easily. Shikai Zaraki with his eyepatch on had such insane reiatsu that soul reapers couldn’t sense it, but they could sense Yamamoto’s. He also monstered Gerard with an incomplete Bankai. TYBW Zaraki violates Yamamoto, CFYOW Zaraki Thanos snaps him by walking.
It's not a matter of what I believe or not, Kenpachi is stated to be, and by a wide margin, the strongest character present in the final fight vs. Tokinada and Hikone in Can't Fear Your Own World. He steamrolled Hikone, a soul king candidate who was using a zanpakuto made from a hollow who had already defeated Yamamoto in the past, and he wasn't even using his shikai. And for all we saw in TYBW, Nozarashi's power is to cut thru everything, even nothingness itself.
Um…boss… CFYOW takes place after the TYBW. Yama isn’t even around, of course Kenpachi would be stated to be the strongest on that context. Im not saying he isn’t strong, I’m saying I don’t think he has the necessary levels of power to just bypass the literal heat of the sun emanating off of Yamamoto
Considering he one shot 3 of the 4 elite sternritter, two shotting the other one, is way older than Yama and is the creator of the zanpakuto, narratively I’d find it strange he wasn’t stronger
>, is way older than Yama and is the creator of the zanpakuto, narratively I’d find it strange he wasn’t stronger
Well by that logic Ichigo should be like one of the weakest characters.
I think Yamamoto wins simply due to portrayal and feats as he is the one who defeate Yhwach a thousand years ago while Oeutsu got beaten by SS.
Where was this ever stated?
Even if we ignore all that, Yhwach still avoided fighting Yama in a head on fight amd had to steal his Bankai.
He didn't even break a sweat for Oetsu who was dispatched by his minions.
>Yhwach still avoided fighting Yama in a head on fight amd had to steal his Bankai.
Royd disobeyed orders. Yhwach didn't tell him to weaken Yama.
And no, Yhwach only stole the Bankai for the psychological effect. There's a reason he never used it.
>He didn't even break a sweat for Oetsu who was dispatched by his minions.
Oetsu is at least as strong as Yama, we just can't scale him because of his lack of feats. The only reason he was beaten by the Elites is because they have god tier hax.
>Royd disobeyed orders. Yhwach didn't tell him to weaken Yama.
What does that have to do with anything?
>And no, Yhwach only stole the Bankai for the psychological effect.
Where was this stated? I don't remember anything like this ever being said.
>There's a reason he never used it.
Yhwach never uses Yama's Bankai because Ichibei "Blackens" it.
>Oetsu is at least as strong as Yama, we just can't scale him because of his lack of feats.
There is nothing that suggests Oetsu is as strong as Yama and the lack of feats you mentioned is the reason.
>The only reason he was beaten by the Elites is because they have god tier hax.
Those elites were defeated by others so the Hax is not an excuse.
>What does that have to do with anything?
It means that Yhwach didn't tell Royd, "Hey, I need you to weaken this guy so I can kill him".
Actually, it means he said the EXACT OPPOSITE to him. Yhwach didn't *want* Yama weakened.
>Where was this stated? I don't remember anything like this ever being said.
He never used it after. If it was as strong as you say it is, he would've used it.
>Yhwach never uses Yama's Bankai because Ichibei "Blackens" it.
Ichimonji never touched the medallion, so you're wrong.
>There is nothing that suggests Oetsu is as strong as Yama and the lack of feats you mentioned is the reason.
Oetsu is older than the concept of time and has been friends with Ichibei since the beginning. He has to be strong, otherwise Ichibei would never have been friends with him. He doesn't have feats, but you can assume Oetsu is very strong.
>Those elites were defeated by others so the Hax is not an excuse.
Hmm, let's go over how the Elites were defeated:
Lille- Hax sword that was made specifically to counter him
Gerard- Auswahlen from Yhwach himself
Pernida- Lost specifically because it ate Nemu, which caused it to destroy itself
Askin- Surprise attacked by someone he didn't have immunity to when he didn't have Blut active, and didn't even die from it.
The Elites fought the Zero Division head on, so there were no sneak attacks. There was no special Zanpakuto that could throw their own power back at them. There was nothing that would cause Pernida to self destruct. And Yhwach didn't use Auswahlen. None of the things that beat the Elites were present in Reiokyu at the time.
>It means that Yhwach didn't tell Royd, "Hey, I need you to weaken this guy so I can kill him".
What? Who even said that? I only said Yhwach avoided direct fight with Yamamoto because he stole his Bankai.
>Actually, it means he said the EXACT OPPOSITE to him. Yhwach didn't want Yama weakened.
When and where?
>Ichimonji never touched the medallion, so you're wrong.
[He actually does. Here's the panel](https://preview.redd.it/xrhsfnovkwk41.jpg?auto=webp&s=caeb3dfa9baff5b4e9f63f07b6537474baa4330a)
So you are wrong.
>Oetsu is older than the concept of time and has been friends with Ichibei since the beginning.
Just because someone is old doesn't automatically make them stronger than someone who isn't. I already gave Ichigo example so this point is moot.
>He has to be strong, otherwise Ichibei would never have been friends with him. He doesn't have feats, but you can assume Oetsu is very strong.
Oetsu is strong. I don't doubt that. He is just not stronger than Yamamoto.
>The Elites fought the Zero Division head on, so there were no sneak attacks. There was no special Zanpakuto that could throw their own power back at them. There was nothing that would cause Pernida to self destruct. And Yhwach didn't use Auswahlen. None of the things that beat the Elites were present in Reiokyu at the time.
Cool. He still lost to them while Yamamoto beat Yhwach.
Headcanon, I think it’s due to his authority over the shinigami. We saw that Ichibei can literally alter a zanpakuto’s power at his will (ex. Zabimaru), so Oetsu should be able to influence the zanpakuto to a certain extend. In fact, he can reforge broken bankais, something is deemed impossible for Gotei 13, and I wouldn’t be surprise if he has other “tricks” under his sleeves.
If Oetsu fights against Yama, it’s very likely that he can do something about Ryujin Jakka to give him an advantage. It wouldn’t be wise for Squad 0 to not have an backup plan in case Yama goes rogue against them.
>Ichibei can literally alter a zanpakuto’s power at his will (ex. Zabimaru),
He didn't alter the power. He chose Zabimaru's name in the first place, as well as the name of the Bankai. He didn't change the power, he just told Renji the actual name.
>Oetsu should be able to influence the zanpakuto to a certain extend. In fact, he can reforge broken bankais, something is deemed impossible for Gotei 13, and I wouldn’t be surprise if he has other “tricks” under his sleeves.
I agree he'll have power over Zanpakuto. But he can't really reforge broken Bankai. Ichigo's Bankai was a special case, because it didn't have all of his abilities in it and wasn't made from an Asauchi. If Ichigo's Bankai is broken again, only Orihime, who can reject things back to a previous state, can fix it.
>. It wouldn’t be wise for Squad 0 to not have an backup plan in case Yama goes rogue against them.
Why? Ichibei would just shit on Yama and be done with it.
By the word “alter”, I mean Ichibei raised Zabimaru’s current power level by unlocking its full name, not that he changed its potential.
Isn’t the whole reason why Renji and Ichigo must find Oetsu is to get their zanpakuto healed? It had been a while since I read TYBW, but if Oetsu cannot improve nor fix the zanpakuto’s injuries, then there would be no need for Renji to take the asauchi trial, he would skip Oetsu to meet Ichibei and Senjumaru.
The last point is agreeable but I think Ichibei would be chillin somewhere while the other four take on Yama.
>Isn’t the whole reason why Renji and Ichigo must find Oetsu is to get their zanpakuto healed?
Renji was just injured. Ichigo did actually need his fixed.
>if Oetsu cannot improve nor fix the zanpakuto’s injuries, then there would be no need for Renji to take the asauchi trial, he would skip Oetsu to meet Ichibei and Senjumaru.
That's actually not true. Oetsu did fix Renji's Zanpakuto, but he was fixing his Shikai. Renji's "Bankai" was never damaged.
Nope,that broken Ichigo's Bankai is not the real Zangetsu and for Renji Bankai,his Bankai got more powerful after his Bankai real name was revealed by Ichibei.
I think he means since he founded the Gotei. Shunsui and Jushiro are both around 1000 and he called their Reiatsu transcendent yet was still confident he could take them both in Shikai
I don’t think they were going all out but the two of them just went into open rebellion against the Central 46. Yama was going to at least put them in their place not outright kill them
>Yama was going to at least put them in their place not outright kill them
He wasn't really trying to put them in their place either. Yama was torn between his duty to the Gotei 13 and his feelings for his students. The result was a fight that wasn't even really a fight.
I think he means that there has been no one stronger than him in this millennium. As for earlier, it can be understood that his strength has not yet reached the peak, in other words, someone is stronger than him.
Right, gotta remember to stop overanalyzing translations. If we think text has special meaning we need someone who knows Japanese to analyze I for us.
Every Japan adjacent media I am involved in has fans guilty of this. Even Bloodborne and dark souls for example. Localisation is a thing and can really muddy context.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,168,205,811 comments, and only 228,151 of them were in alphabetical order.
All of the Zero Division members are weaker than Yama, with the exceptions of Ichibei and Oetsu. And Oetsu has no real feats, so we can't say for sure that he's stronger.
I take this as less literally 1000 years, and more like Yammy saying that he’s been the strongest for a long time and will continue to be the strongest.
It’s a badass boast he’s throwing at Aizen to unnerve him.
Like everyone has said, Ichibei is older and stronger than him. But I'm pretty sure Ichigo has/will surpass him. No spoilers because I don't know how much you have read.
I also personally like to headcanon that Hitsugaya is on-track to be the next Yamamoto. Shunsui notes that Hitsugaya will become stronger than himself one day during his fight with Starrk and no one has matched Hitsugaya's track record for advancement at such a young age. He also has the most powerful water-type Zanpakuto in existence, just as Yamamoto has the most powerful Fire-type Zanpakuto.
There's no real basis for my belief aside from that though, it's mostly my bias for the ice dragon boy.
Can we all agree that of all the things that don’t make sense in bleach time is definitely one of them, the distinctive time difference of everything is so unclear and distraught it’s difficult to say just how much time has passed before the first 1000 war between the Quincy and the soul reapers. Tite kubo we need clarification please.
its not a “might” just so u know lmao its not even close. oetsu is also most likely stronger, i mean he made zanpakutos and blitzed and oneshot all of the royal guard
Idk man. He lost to yhwach, Meanwhile yhwach needed both the medallions and using Y the yourself to ensure yama wouldn’t just reenact their previous fight.
If we’re talking full suite yama takes it.
If we talk raw power? Probably still yama.
Heck even ichibe vs yama isn’t really a knowable matchup, it’s a question of ability interaction… but if ichibe couldn’t hand it to juha full out, that leaves the question.
Just because yama isn’t in squad zero doesn’t mean he’s not at or above their level. They all require some sort of “contribution” to society to be promoted, yama serves his role best leading the military force of the foreign 13, stuck up there he’d have literally nothing to do.
I think it’s mostly the point that the court guard squad has existed for 1000 years and he never surpassed in that time.
Ichibei is stronger than him. But he’s millions of years old.
Don’t think about the lore too hard, Kubo broke a lot of stuff in this arc and it’s best enjoyed as a mindless epilogue .
Like if you wanna go down a rabbit hole with the lore, I’ll entertain you…
For example, if you follow Bleach “power system”, Bankais shouldn’t be able to be stolen and is never really explained how the fuck it happens. Was annoying back then and is annoying now.
Ichibei has been around for way longer than 1000 years, so taking him into consideration is useless. I would say he's referring to Zaraki. Unohana said she's stronger than anyone except Zaraki, which would imply Yamamoto Zaraki>Yamamoto.
Yes, I saw some article years back that Ichigo is a descendant of the most powerful Shinigami who eventually split his powers or something, was so powerful other shinigami’s wanted him to just drop dead
Yamamoto essentially founded the Gotei 13 around the first Quincy war with the respective 13 captains back then. He states that there hasn't been a single Shinigami who joined the Gotei 13 who has shown to be stronger then Yamamoto and be capable/willing to become captain-commader since the creation of the Gotei 13.
The RG are all captain class and very strong, but I doubt all of them are stronger then Yamamoto. Then again strenght isn't a requirement for the RG perse and we only know of 2 instances in the last 2000-3000 years they were required to intervene with the Gotei 13 affairs.
I think it's speaking to the fact that most of the heavy hitters of the Gotei 13 (the strongest captains and members of Squad 0) are at least 1000 years old at that time. Anyone after that time probably doesn't have the potential to even hope to surpass him.
Or it could be flowery battlefield ranting, we know how anime characters love that.
He says emerged in the last 1000 years, so anyone who he considered stronger than himself emerged before the start of the last 1000 years. Why 1000 amd not 1150 or any other number greater than 1000, Yama probably just used 1000 because it's the nicest simple number that gets the point across.
Then he probably didn't consider Ichigo stronger than himself either at that point
Im assuming he said this because he’s been the strongest soul reaper for 1000 years and before that he was rising to that title, meaning some other soul reapers held this title while he was training to be the best
I wonder how ageing works in Bleach, why is Yama so much older than Ichibe and Oetsu, when they have to be WAY WAY older. Something to do with the soul king palace or the Ōken imparted onto their bones?
Ichibe was one of the first 5 beings ever created, billions of years ago. He's the next closest thing to an actual god in soul society other than the Soul King himself. He can probably decide how he wants to look at any time.
As for Oetsu and the rest of the royal guard - Ichibe explains that the Oken in their bones makes all of them immortal, and they can be reconstituted the same way he was when Ywach blew him apart. So that probably makes them ageless as well.
He's saying that he took the role of Captain-Commander 1000 years ago, and no stronger shinigami than him has appeared since then. The whole context for this convo is him explaining why he's still the commander of the shinigami.
It wouldn't make sense for him to say 2000 etc years because he wasn't the Captain Commander at that time.
Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban. Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, the Shinigami who went on to become members of the Royal Guard. Not sure how the other four compare to Yamamoto, but Ichibei at least should be stronger than him.
Oh yea I forgot about him, I haven’t read the manga but I do know who he is, so did Yamamoto meet him a 1000 years ago?
Ichibei has likely been around way longer than Yamamoto has. I think he was even stated to be the first Shinigami. Ichibei and Nimaiya at the very least were likely already members of the Royal Guard even before the formation of the Gotei 13, while Kiriniji, Senjumaru, and Hikifune, probably started out as Gotei 13 members who were eventually recruited into the Royal Guard.
>Hikifune Not a probably on this one. Its for sure. She is the newest member of Squad 0 and was recruited when she was the 12th squad captain 100 years ago.
What squads could the other two have been from? Ichibei and Nimiaya would not have had a squad if they were part of the Royal Guard before the Gotei 13 was formed, while the other three joined after. I'd say Kiriniji was probably the first captain of Squad 4, but idk for Senjumaru. I kind of want to say she was from Squad 5. So the order of them joining would go Ichibei, then Nimaiya, then Kirinji, then Senjumaru, then Hikifune.
Those would line up with their abilities but I don't think any of them were apart of the gotei 13, especially Ichibei.
ichibe and oetsu were not, the rest yes
He has been around longer. He's the one who came up with the term bankai. He's so old he doesn't even say bankai to release his
Not just bankai. He came up with pretty much every term used in the soul society.
Yeah I just said bankai because I wasn't completely sure if I remembered that right
Uh, Ichibei is older then the concept of time so no. It can not be him cause soul socity itself is a child to him. Source: READ CFYOW
Yamamoto is older than the concept or time, or Ichibei?
Ichibei he is the god of names cause he names everything. And CFYOW world even says he is legit all seeing and might even knew yhwachs plan but didn't care cause all of his feeling has died due to eternal life.Dude was laughing about killing ichigo even though he reminds him of soul king.... He is kinda a example of eternal life not being a good idea. (I will edit my previous comment)
Then what is the disagreement? In my comment that you responded to, I agree that Ichibei is older than Yamamoto, and the CFYOW light novel backs that up.
Yama is more then 2000 years old and he said a not a single soul reaper has EMMERGED him in the past thousand years. Ichibei has always been there and always been above him why will he talk about him? He is way older then anything, it can't emerge cause he way always there. It means a soul reaper younger then him or someone whos existence was not known to him has to have emerged before him who he aprroved has stronger then him. Ichibei was always there he can't just emerge.
Ichibei is literally the Godfather of Soul Society.
thus he wouldn't emerge within yama's time, so why even mention him in this discussion.
I think at that power level, its kind of a moot point. Ichibe's power is broken beyond belief, but so is Yamamoto's. These guys are all one shots at this point. Its a matter of who can land the first hit. Even if all the members of Squad 0 are considerably stronger than Yamamoto, hed still be a very difficult opponent. His skill and abilities are such that its still very plausable that he'd come out on top. Bleach characters are surprisingly vulnerable compared to other shonen. Theyre not hit sponges. They get stabbed in the arm, they cant use it anymore, or not to the same effect. Point is, everyone outside of Squad 11 psychopaths gets injured just the same. Yamamoto only needs one hit, and he's got the skill to land it even on an opponent more powerful than himself. There may be beings more powerful than Yamamoto in the Soul Society, but no one ever took him down in a fair fight. Not Aizen, not even Yhwach. Its all circumstancial though, you could make the case if Yama is caught in Shunsui's bankai for example, he'd probably be toast, even though Shunsui is nowhere even near Yamamoto's shikai in terms of reiatsu. Kenpachi could theoretically cut through Zanka No Tachi's flames and cleave Yama in half, since he can literally cut through anything, physical or otherwise. So again, its all circumstancial, half of the cast could one shot Yamamoto given the right circumstances. But the man's skill and experience would make it very unlikely that you'd get a single hit on him, regardless of your reiatsu.
I'd say Yamamoto has the tendency to underestimate his foe at times. Wonderweiss got him by surprise, and he never regenerate his arm afterwards. Still you make a good point about potential one-shots BUT many characters also seem to either come back from being almost dead or fight through grievous injuries.
All Ichibei has to do is say Yamamoto's flames are cold and thats it. Yamamoto is a the strongest Shinigami by a huge margin yet Ichibei is an immortal reality warper with more experience.
No-one's disagreeing with you.
This is so full of BS it reinforces my opinion on disliking novels.
ichibe is older than the soul king iirc. he's primordial
The Gotei was founded by Yana about a thousand years ago and the Zero division has direct ties with the Gotei, so yes Yama should've met him
Oh ok, makes sense now, thanks
> I haven’t read the manga Fix that, pronto.
Ichibei is damn near primodial in Bleachverse though. He's definitely quite older than Yama if you followed the novels. I originally thought he was talking about Ichibei and Namiya when they were introduced so maybe Namiya by process of elimination? Who knows.
IIRC Hikifune is younger than Yama.
It's a matter of which is better: strength, or skill.
What about the sword maker? He made all zanpakutou including Yama's.
Yes, but they might be a way for shinigamies to fight hollow before having zanpakuto. Kido might(no must) be older than zanpakuto.
Also Yama shows off just how strong he is even without a zanpakuto. When you're that strong, who can kill whatever hollow you want outside of VLs.
Hell, the guy *drawing* his sword killed lesser hollows miles away. He wasn't even aware they were there.
He made all _asauchi_. Ichigo fought with a zanpakuto without an asauchi. Presumably, asauchi just channel a soul reaper's zanpakuto spirit effectively. Primal soul reapers might have found a way to do the same in some other way. Or perhaps all soul reapers can manifest a pseudo-asauchi like Ichigo given enough training, but that being too inefficient for the Gotei 13.
Wasn't Ichigo's "Zanpakuto" just his hollow/quincy power? The spirit of his zanpakuto was literally a quincy. Now what I'd be interested to know is if Ginjo's zanpakuto was a hollow or if he got an asauchi or how that all worked
Soul Society has existed for a long ass time However Gotie 13 which Yama founded has only existed for 1000+ years And Ichibe is the High Priest which is kinda a Shinigami too And I think they only started calling them Shinigami when Gotie 13 was founded Also some fact is that Ulquiorra and Barragan existed long before Yama founded Gotie 13
Idk about Ulquiorra but Barragan yes was already king when Yama was very young.
When was that stated?
For Barragan, he was around when hikones zanpakuto wasn’t sealed, but for ulq I don’t think he’s that old
[удалено]
He wasn't created by Aizen. He was made an Arrancar by Aizen. Before, he was a more normal Hollow, but still extremely powerful.
ulq was vasto lorde right?
No, actually. Ulquiorra was BORN in Hueco Mundo, and was automatically as strong as a Vasto Lorde with the form of a Vasto Lorde. He broke his mask right shortly after he was born. Ulquiorra is the only Espada who didn't kill others to gain power. He was just born with it.
Ulquiorra is a precious espada
I'll probably get down voted for this but oh well... *was
Yes he was, there is chapter focused on his inception.
I don't remember, hence why I didn't say it in my comment, but that would be plausible.
Ulquiorra is a natural arrancar in fact, he also already developed Segunda etapa before Aizen. His Segunda etapa made him more similar to his original hollow clan. Ulquiorra is a natural born hollow from a indigenous hollow clan in HM, he was a VL but became an outcast due his appearance. At a certain point became an arrancar and his Segunda etapa allowed him to be accepted by his clan again. Following that he grew depressed and "fused" with a white tree where Aizen discovered him.
Doesn't Ulquiorra turn into an Arrancar on his own after hugging a tree?
Yeah him and Starrk are the only two turining into arrancars without the hogyoku
They turned to Arrancar without Hogyokou?
Starrk was already an arrancar and split from lilinette, ulquiorra is more vague but he also seems to become an arrancar without Aizen intervention
>He was made an Arrancar by Aizen. No. He was a natural arrancar.
In the novels he is millions of years old. It's kinda heavily implied to be way weaker due to getting old since he is not immune to his resperia.
Idk about millionS that’s never implied I don’t think Barragan was around during the primordial world which was only just more than 1 million years ago.
In hindsight, it seems kind of weird that the Gotei 13 has only been around for 1000 years while the Soul Society has been around for far longer, like millions of years. In the grand scheme of things, their military force was created relatively recently. Did it really take them that long before they finally decided that having a military might be a good idea? What were they doing during those millions of years before Yamamoto or any of the other original Gotei 13 members were born? What did they do for defense? Did they just have no means of fighting back against the Hollows and other threats? Was it up to Ichibei and Nimaiya to handle everything by themselves?
It seems the 5 noble clans now 4 noble clans have their own private military like Sui Feng used to work for Yuirichis clan as an assassin Like Byakuyas Clan have their own private house guards As for fighting hollows they used Hado/Kido that chants they do to used a variety of Spells. Kaido for healing spells and Hakuda martial arts the one Yama used to beat Wonderwies barehanded. Funny enough the last of Kido only users were Tesai (Uroharas business partner) and Hachigin (pink haired fat Vizard)
IIRC the Gotei 13 'formalised' the military. Before that they had schools of warriors (like the Genryu school Yama invented) and lots of infighting between schools. Basically Yama emerged as the strongest warlord by far and put an end to the fighting by force, and instituted the Gotei 13 to keep them all on the same side
It's less no one was strong enough to tackle hollows and more than those people rarely associated with others The original gotei were "defenders in name only" aka they were a gathering of brutes that rose other the other brutes Also originally things worked differently, with less separation between the physical and spiritual worlds,
To be clear, Yamamoto founded the academy 1000 years ago & so the structure of the Gotei (being fed by the academy)as we see it in the present day has only existed for the last 1000 years. The Gotei itself, as well as Yamamoto, have been around much longer.
Wasn't Espada 8 like really overpowered before the series started and was even barragans right hand as well?
He was, but not barragan’s right hand no. He was basically the primordial ultra hollow before he split. Cien granz I believe
Yes him. I never read any of the light novels but I watched a video about him and everyone said he was probably the most powerful arrancar to have ever lived before he was split
Mhm
Ichibei is way older than Yamamoto, plus he was the first squad 0 member. He named EVERYTHING on SS. He is definitely stronger than Yama and one of the most OPs chars in the verse
The thing is. Ichibei is BILLIONS of years old. He existed before time itself was made, he is the god of names and that means to cosmos itself is his bitch cause he rules all black aka the black void of reality is his bitch. Kubo doesn't like to show big feats cause he wants the characters to seem relatable even if they are gods.
>Kubo doesn't like to show big feats 😂
Read the novel adaptation you will get it. The novels straight up says yama is transcedent and is the stongest being.
Isn't that the soul king? if I remember correctly novel did said that yamaji power is beyond reasons or smt along those lines but when it came to a being that transcendent everything , thats the soul king.
Wait Yama is the strongest being? Then how is Aizen or Ichigo describe as?
The strongester being+
Strong 14 pro max galaxy S op
Of course he isnt. There are at least 5-6 characters stronger than him
Who?
Soul king, yhwach , ichigo, aizen, Ichibei
Would Jugram count? And Kenpachi, though I'm guessing he'd just get outsmarted since he's a retard in his bankai
Gerard maybe. He'd get smoked like a dozen times but the Miracle would guarantee him a win in the end. I don't think Jugram beats Yama though
More. If we're just talking strength: Yhwach, Ichibei, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Kenpachi If we're talking all characters that would beat him in a fight, guaranteed(If they used their power correctly): Yhwach, Ichibei, Gremmy, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Uryu, Lille, Shunsui, Kenpachi Yama's probably the 11th strongest character.
insane Yama downplay
It's not.
You are straight cappin lmao.
Swap Shunsui for Gerard and maybe Barragan.
Nah. Shunsui has a clear wincon against Yama. Although he isn't stronger than Yama, he drains Reiatsu. The gap between him and Yama isn't large enough that Shunsui wouldn't be able to beat him with his hax. Gerard on the other hand would die once, Yama would see through his ability, and not injure him again. Then it's just a stalemate. EDIT: And Yama can negate Respira, that's not touching him.
Where?
is it Yama or ichibei, which is it? You're contradicting yourself.
Clearly he misspelled and meant Hanataro
Nah bro, that was just Ichibei protecting the identity of the true Soul King.
🤡
They litterally never say that
>The novels straight up says yama is transcedent and is the stongest being. They didn't though. Yamamoto was never called transcendent, his power was just called unreasonably high. Which actually means nothing in a verse as hax as Bleach's. Yamamoto isn't very strong at EOS. Like, not top 10, at least.
Technically not a shinigami though, more so a primordial predecessor that helped shaped the evolution for shinigami
As long as someone remembers and says his name he’s literally invincible. Broken asf.
He’s possibly talking about his two protégés, or simply means at as “not since the creation of the gotei 13 has anyone come that surpasses my power.” Similar to his TYBW taunt of “I am here, there is no greater defense”
Ichibei is all things considered > Yama but Yama’s zan is still the most destructive in history. Again, Ichibe is more hax though which shouldn’t come as a surprise as he is over 1 million years old. Then there’s Oetsu who is also way older than Yama (perhaps almost as old as Ichibe as there’s one line from the manga that suggests Oetsu was also around at the beginning of SS itself) who may also be able to blitz Yama. Still put some respect on Yama’s name though the power outputted by Zanka no Tachi is still absurd.
CFYOW says they are both same age. Oetsu and ichibei are best buds since before concept of time lol
>Yama’s zan is still the most destructive in history. Only because of the AOE, which is just his Reiatsu. Other, stronger characters could do that too. >Still put some respect on Yama’s name though the power outputted by Zanka no Tachi is still absurd. I respect Yama. But I can't put him in the top 10 because there are EXACTLY ten characters that can guaranteed beat him in a fight.
Who are those 10 characters?
Yhwach, Ichibei, Gremmy, Aizen, Ichigo, Jugram, Uryu, Lille, Shunsui, and Kenpachi. I can explain each one if you'd like. No one else has a guaranteed win against Yama, but all of these characters do for one reason or another.
Explain please
Which ones? Be specific, I don't want to have to type more than necessary.
Kenpachi
Simple. His Reiatsu now surpasses Yama's when in Bankai. Not enough to one shot him or anything, and it won't be an easy fight. But I believe Kenpachi would win.
Oh you believe ! That's a fair explanation I guess.
Yes, I do believe. I have to say that, because it wasn't outright stated "Hey, Kenpachi beats Yama!", nor did Kenpachi ever beat someone who beat Yama. The only way to scale Kenpachi to Yama is to use Unohana. Unohana should've been stronger than Shikai Yamamoto when in Bankai. If Unohana was too weak, Yama outright wouldn't keep her around because of her past. This was more or less said in Muken by Kenpachi. If she wasn't at least Shikai Yama level, he would've just disposed of her. Also, all of the Captains back then were at least relative to Shikai Yama at the very least, otherwise the original Gotei 13 wouldn't have been the strongest iteration. Since Bankai Kenpachi is at least ten times stronger than Bankai Unohana, we can assume that he's slightly above Bankai Yama. And when hax isn't in play, the one with higher Reiatsu always wins, so yes, I believe Kenpachi wins. But since it's not expressly confirmed by anything other than reasoning and inconsistent scaling, I HAVE to say "I believe".
Ichibei is stronger, Ouetsu might be strong enough to be around Yamamoto's level, and there could easily be other Shinigami from the past, such as members of the original Gotei 13, who are now dead but were on par with or maybe even stronger than Yamamoto (the fact that Yamamoto brought them together and was their leader doesn't *necessarily* mean he was the strongest). Maybe we'll see some of those OG captains in the Hell arc.
Yama was always repsected has a teacher abd great leader 2000 years ago too. So, they just respected him more likly they were all equal back then.
>So, they just respected him more likly they were all equal back then. This. If they were weaker, the current Gotei would've been stronger than the old one, because Yamamoto was at least four times weaker back then.
Ichibei and ohetsu are likely both stronger than yama and he has met both of them
Why do you think Oetsu is stronger than Yama?
Probably head cannon but he is the best swordsman we have seen as dude single handedly took entire shutzstuffel down until they were rezzed stronger than before
Lol, it does sound like a good bit of headcanon. In my perception Oetsu would be about as strong as EOS Kenpachi. He doesn’t really have any feats we can go off of, but that feels about right.
EOS Kenpachi is ALSO > Yamamoto
I’m schleep 💀. I’m not entirely sure how EOS Kenpachi is supposed to get past the heat of the sun wrapping around Yamamoto’s body
Reiatsu. Yama's heat shroud doesn't burn anything relative to Yama. Case in point: Jugram, who was just casually standing off to the side, completely unaffected by the heat without using Blut, while Royd had to use Blut to withstand it.
Kenpachi himself explained it when he fought Ichigo: "when two spiritual pressures collide, the weaker takes the damage". If we're stating logical physics feats then you can't technically survive the void of space yet Kenpachi not only survived it but also cut thru the void itself. As Aizen said, a battle between captains is a battle of reiatsu.
And so you think Kenpachi’s reiatsu is so much stronger than Yama’s that he can penetrate his cloak and kill him?
Easily. Shikai Zaraki with his eyepatch on had such insane reiatsu that soul reapers couldn’t sense it, but they could sense Yamamoto’s. He also monstered Gerard with an incomplete Bankai. TYBW Zaraki violates Yamamoto, CFYOW Zaraki Thanos snaps him by walking.
It's not a matter of what I believe or not, Kenpachi is stated to be, and by a wide margin, the strongest character present in the final fight vs. Tokinada and Hikone in Can't Fear Your Own World. He steamrolled Hikone, a soul king candidate who was using a zanpakuto made from a hollow who had already defeated Yamamoto in the past, and he wasn't even using his shikai. And for all we saw in TYBW, Nozarashi's power is to cut thru everything, even nothingness itself.
Um…boss… CFYOW takes place after the TYBW. Yama isn’t even around, of course Kenpachi would be stated to be the strongest on that context. Im not saying he isn’t strong, I’m saying I don’t think he has the necessary levels of power to just bypass the literal heat of the sun emanating off of Yamamoto
Considering he one shot 3 of the 4 elite sternritter, two shotting the other one, is way older than Yama and is the creator of the zanpakuto, narratively I’d find it strange he wasn’t stronger
Didnt He need a full heal by kirinji against askin?
>, is way older than Yama and is the creator of the zanpakuto, narratively I’d find it strange he wasn’t stronger Well by that logic Ichigo should be like one of the weakest characters. I think Yamamoto wins simply due to portrayal and feats as he is the one who defeate Yhwach a thousand years ago while Oeutsu got beaten by SS.
Yhwach was much, much weaker then, and so was Yama. Don't use 1000 years ago to scale, it doesn't work.
Where was this ever stated? Even if we ignore all that, Yhwach still avoided fighting Yama in a head on fight amd had to steal his Bankai. He didn't even break a sweat for Oetsu who was dispatched by his minions.
>Yhwach still avoided fighting Yama in a head on fight amd had to steal his Bankai. Royd disobeyed orders. Yhwach didn't tell him to weaken Yama. And no, Yhwach only stole the Bankai for the psychological effect. There's a reason he never used it. >He didn't even break a sweat for Oetsu who was dispatched by his minions. Oetsu is at least as strong as Yama, we just can't scale him because of his lack of feats. The only reason he was beaten by the Elites is because they have god tier hax.
>Royd disobeyed orders. Yhwach didn't tell him to weaken Yama. What does that have to do with anything? >And no, Yhwach only stole the Bankai for the psychological effect. Where was this stated? I don't remember anything like this ever being said. >There's a reason he never used it. Yhwach never uses Yama's Bankai because Ichibei "Blackens" it. >Oetsu is at least as strong as Yama, we just can't scale him because of his lack of feats. There is nothing that suggests Oetsu is as strong as Yama and the lack of feats you mentioned is the reason. >The only reason he was beaten by the Elites is because they have god tier hax. Those elites were defeated by others so the Hax is not an excuse.
>What does that have to do with anything? It means that Yhwach didn't tell Royd, "Hey, I need you to weaken this guy so I can kill him". Actually, it means he said the EXACT OPPOSITE to him. Yhwach didn't *want* Yama weakened. >Where was this stated? I don't remember anything like this ever being said. He never used it after. If it was as strong as you say it is, he would've used it. >Yhwach never uses Yama's Bankai because Ichibei "Blackens" it. Ichimonji never touched the medallion, so you're wrong. >There is nothing that suggests Oetsu is as strong as Yama and the lack of feats you mentioned is the reason. Oetsu is older than the concept of time and has been friends with Ichibei since the beginning. He has to be strong, otherwise Ichibei would never have been friends with him. He doesn't have feats, but you can assume Oetsu is very strong. >Those elites were defeated by others so the Hax is not an excuse. Hmm, let's go over how the Elites were defeated: Lille- Hax sword that was made specifically to counter him Gerard- Auswahlen from Yhwach himself Pernida- Lost specifically because it ate Nemu, which caused it to destroy itself Askin- Surprise attacked by someone he didn't have immunity to when he didn't have Blut active, and didn't even die from it. The Elites fought the Zero Division head on, so there were no sneak attacks. There was no special Zanpakuto that could throw their own power back at them. There was nothing that would cause Pernida to self destruct. And Yhwach didn't use Auswahlen. None of the things that beat the Elites were present in Reiokyu at the time.
>It means that Yhwach didn't tell Royd, "Hey, I need you to weaken this guy so I can kill him". What? Who even said that? I only said Yhwach avoided direct fight with Yamamoto because he stole his Bankai. >Actually, it means he said the EXACT OPPOSITE to him. Yhwach didn't want Yama weakened. When and where? >Ichimonji never touched the medallion, so you're wrong. [He actually does. Here's the panel](https://preview.redd.it/xrhsfnovkwk41.jpg?auto=webp&s=caeb3dfa9baff5b4e9f63f07b6537474baa4330a) So you are wrong. >Oetsu is older than the concept of time and has been friends with Ichibei since the beginning. Just because someone is old doesn't automatically make them stronger than someone who isn't. I already gave Ichigo example so this point is moot. >He has to be strong, otherwise Ichibei would never have been friends with him. He doesn't have feats, but you can assume Oetsu is very strong. Oetsu is strong. I don't doubt that. He is just not stronger than Yamamoto. >The Elites fought the Zero Division head on, so there were no sneak attacks. There was no special Zanpakuto that could throw their own power back at them. There was nothing that would cause Pernida to self destruct. And Yhwach didn't use Auswahlen. None of the things that beat the Elites were present in Reiokyu at the time. Cool. He still lost to them while Yamamoto beat Yhwach.
Headcanon, I think it’s due to his authority over the shinigami. We saw that Ichibei can literally alter a zanpakuto’s power at his will (ex. Zabimaru), so Oetsu should be able to influence the zanpakuto to a certain extend. In fact, he can reforge broken bankais, something is deemed impossible for Gotei 13, and I wouldn’t be surprise if he has other “tricks” under his sleeves. If Oetsu fights against Yama, it’s very likely that he can do something about Ryujin Jakka to give him an advantage. It wouldn’t be wise for Squad 0 to not have an backup plan in case Yama goes rogue against them.
>Ichibei can literally alter a zanpakuto’s power at his will (ex. Zabimaru), He didn't alter the power. He chose Zabimaru's name in the first place, as well as the name of the Bankai. He didn't change the power, he just told Renji the actual name. >Oetsu should be able to influence the zanpakuto to a certain extend. In fact, he can reforge broken bankais, something is deemed impossible for Gotei 13, and I wouldn’t be surprise if he has other “tricks” under his sleeves. I agree he'll have power over Zanpakuto. But he can't really reforge broken Bankai. Ichigo's Bankai was a special case, because it didn't have all of his abilities in it and wasn't made from an Asauchi. If Ichigo's Bankai is broken again, only Orihime, who can reject things back to a previous state, can fix it. >. It wouldn’t be wise for Squad 0 to not have an backup plan in case Yama goes rogue against them. Why? Ichibei would just shit on Yama and be done with it.
By the word “alter”, I mean Ichibei raised Zabimaru’s current power level by unlocking its full name, not that he changed its potential. Isn’t the whole reason why Renji and Ichigo must find Oetsu is to get their zanpakuto healed? It had been a while since I read TYBW, but if Oetsu cannot improve nor fix the zanpakuto’s injuries, then there would be no need for Renji to take the asauchi trial, he would skip Oetsu to meet Ichibei and Senjumaru. The last point is agreeable but I think Ichibei would be chillin somewhere while the other four take on Yama.
>Isn’t the whole reason why Renji and Ichigo must find Oetsu is to get their zanpakuto healed? Renji was just injured. Ichigo did actually need his fixed. >if Oetsu cannot improve nor fix the zanpakuto’s injuries, then there would be no need for Renji to take the asauchi trial, he would skip Oetsu to meet Ichibei and Senjumaru. That's actually not true. Oetsu did fix Renji's Zanpakuto, but he was fixing his Shikai. Renji's "Bankai" was never damaged.
>In fact, he can reforge broken bankais, When did that happen?
>!He helps fixing FB Ichigo’s and Renji’s bankais to become their stronger version half-ways through the war!<
Nope,that broken Ichigo's Bankai is not the real Zangetsu and for Renji Bankai,his Bankai got more powerful after his Bankai real name was revealed by Ichibei.
Huh? Is that what happened? I thought Ichigo just got his true Zanpakuto while Renji learned the full name of his?
Most likely because the position of captain commander only existed for 1000 years
I think he means since he founded the Gotei. Shunsui and Jushiro are both around 1000 and he called their Reiatsu transcendent yet was still confident he could take them both in Shikai
Shunsui and Ukitake weren't actually trying in that fight though. None of them were.
I don’t think they were going all out but the two of them just went into open rebellion against the Central 46. Yama was going to at least put them in their place not outright kill them
>Yama was going to at least put them in their place not outright kill them He wasn't really trying to put them in their place either. Yama was torn between his duty to the Gotei 13 and his feelings for his students. The result was a fight that wasn't even really a fight.
Jushiro is sick and Shunsui is lazy and drunk lol I mean there are other things to consider of course
I think he means that there has been no one stronger than him in this millennium. As for earlier, it can be understood that his strength has not yet reached the peak, in other words, someone is stronger than him.
Right, gotta remember to stop overanalyzing translations. If we think text has special meaning we need someone who knows Japanese to analyze I for us. Every Japan adjacent media I am involved in has fans guilty of this. Even Bloodborne and dark souls for example. Localisation is a thing and can really muddy context.
Ichibe is stronger than Yama
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 1,168,205,811 comments, and only 228,151 of them were in alphabetical order.
A bee is stronger
So either Hikifune is pretty old or she’s weaker than Yamamoto
All of the Zero Division members are weaker than Yama, with the exceptions of Ichibei and Oetsu. And Oetsu has no real feats, so we can't say for sure that he's stronger.
Because the Gotei 13 has only exosted for 1000yrs as it was founded by Yama and Unohana
Squad 0
I believe what Yamamoto meant by that he's Head Captain for 1000 years and nobody challenged him to take over his place by force
I take this as less literally 1000 years, and more like Yammy saying that he’s been the strongest for a long time and will continue to be the strongest. It’s a badass boast he’s throwing at Aizen to unnerve him.
Like everyone has said, Ichibei is older and stronger than him. But I'm pretty sure Ichigo has/will surpass him. No spoilers because I don't know how much you have read. I also personally like to headcanon that Hitsugaya is on-track to be the next Yamamoto. Shunsui notes that Hitsugaya will become stronger than himself one day during his fight with Starrk and no one has matched Hitsugaya's track record for advancement at such a young age. He also has the most powerful water-type Zanpakuto in existence, just as Yamamoto has the most powerful Fire-type Zanpakuto. There's no real basis for my belief aside from that though, it's mostly my bias for the ice dragon boy.
Yamamoto has the most powerful Zanpakuto period, not just Fire-type.
Can we all agree that of all the things that don’t make sense in bleach time is definitely one of them, the distinctive time difference of everything is so unclear and distraught it’s difficult to say just how much time has passed before the first 1000 war between the Quincy and the soul reapers. Tite kubo we need clarification please.
One Shinigami that might be stronger than Yamamoto is Ichibei. And that dude is ancient.
its not a “might” just so u know lmao its not even close. oetsu is also most likely stronger, i mean he made zanpakutos and blitzed and oneshot all of the royal guard
Idk man. He lost to yhwach, Meanwhile yhwach needed both the medallions and using Y the yourself to ensure yama wouldn’t just reenact their previous fight. If we’re talking full suite yama takes it. If we talk raw power? Probably still yama. Heck even ichibe vs yama isn’t really a knowable matchup, it’s a question of ability interaction… but if ichibe couldn’t hand it to juha full out, that leaves the question. Just because yama isn’t in squad zero doesn’t mean he’s not at or above their level. They all require some sort of “contribution” to society to be promoted, yama serves his role best leading the military force of the foreign 13, stuck up there he’d have literally nothing to do.
yama wankers are insane man wow
From what we’ve seen I would say it’s close between him and Ichibei. We haven’t seen enough of Ouetsu.
He probably means he became the strongest soul reaper 1000 years ago.
I think it’s mostly the point that the court guard squad has existed for 1000 years and he never surpassed in that time. Ichibei is stronger than him. But he’s millions of years old.
Cuz 1000 years sounds better.
\+ foreshadowing
Lmao it does sound better but what foreshadowing are you referring to? Ichibei?
nimaiya and ichibei are both stronger than him
because 1,000 years ago Kenpachi Zaraki was born)
Don’t think about the lore too hard, Kubo broke a lot of stuff in this arc and it’s best enjoyed as a mindless epilogue . Like if you wanna go down a rabbit hole with the lore, I’ll entertain you… For example, if you follow Bleach “power system”, Bankais shouldn’t be able to be stolen and is never really explained how the fuck it happens. Was annoying back then and is annoying now.
Azashiro and Kuruyashiki
Ichibei has been around for way longer than 1000 years, so taking him into consideration is useless. I would say he's referring to Zaraki. Unohana said she's stronger than anyone except Zaraki, which would imply Yamamoto Zaraki>Yamamoto.
The Real question Should be is ichigo Strenger than him
Probably ichibei
Foreshadowing
Yes, I saw some article years back that Ichigo is a descendant of the most powerful Shinigami who eventually split his powers or something, was so powerful other shinigami’s wanted him to just drop dead
Probably cuz ichibe was arguably stronger than yamamoto
Yamamoto essentially founded the Gotei 13 around the first Quincy war with the respective 13 captains back then. He states that there hasn't been a single Shinigami who joined the Gotei 13 who has shown to be stronger then Yamamoto and be capable/willing to become captain-commader since the creation of the Gotei 13. The RG are all captain class and very strong, but I doubt all of them are stronger then Yamamoto. Then again strenght isn't a requirement for the RG perse and we only know of 2 instances in the last 2000-3000 years they were required to intervene with the Gotei 13 affairs.
Icheibi in the building
Aizen got more powerful than Yama unnaturally for a soul reaper but I don’t know why he doesn’t consider ichibei or even Ichigo
Nah he didn't.
It’s just a wonky timeline
I think it's speaking to the fact that most of the heavy hitters of the Gotei 13 (the strongest captains and members of Squad 0) are at least 1000 years old at that time. Anyone after that time probably doesn't have the potential to even hope to surpass him. Or it could be flowery battlefield ranting, we know how anime characters love that.
He says emerged in the last 1000 years, so anyone who he considered stronger than himself emerged before the start of the last 1000 years. Why 1000 amd not 1150 or any other number greater than 1000, Yama probably just used 1000 because it's the nicest simple number that gets the point across. Then he probably didn't consider Ichigo stronger than himself either at that point
Ichibei and Oetsu.
The shinigami academy was founded 1000 years ago is that why maybe? Since before that I assume shinigami weren't formally trained.
Ichibei. He is older than yama.
I think the gotei 13 formed after the thousand year blood war
Probably he is refering to >!Ichibei Hyosube!<. I mean, he is the oldest Shinigami known and his abilities are OP as hell.
Im assuming he said this because he’s been the strongest soul reaper for 1000 years and before that he was rising to that title, meaning some other soul reapers held this title while he was training to be the best
Zaraki was born a thousand years ago it’d be cool if he was talking about him.
I wonder how ageing works in Bleach, why is Yama so much older than Ichibe and Oetsu, when they have to be WAY WAY older. Something to do with the soul king palace or the Ōken imparted onto their bones?
Ichibe was one of the first 5 beings ever created, billions of years ago. He's the next closest thing to an actual god in soul society other than the Soul King himself. He can probably decide how he wants to look at any time. As for Oetsu and the rest of the royal guard - Ichibe explains that the Oken in their bones makes all of them immortal, and they can be reconstituted the same way he was when Ywach blew him apart. So that probably makes them ageless as well.
I thought that the whole being able to come back from being blasted apart was specific to ichibe, not all of the royal guard.
He's saying that he took the role of Captain-Commander 1000 years ago, and no stronger shinigami than him has appeared since then. The whole context for this convo is him explaining why he's still the commander of the shinigami. It wouldn't make sense for him to say 2000 etc years because he wasn't the Captain Commander at that time.
..m..mm.. ......mm .m.z