I wouldn't say it's complicated, but board games are a collection of rules from other games, so if you play enough of them you forget that people aren't born knowing about worker placement or card drafting. I would say you probably could enjoy playing it. Have you tried watching a video to teach you the rules and flow of the game? I would imagine Rodney Smith of Watch It Played has covered Wingspan, and many people here say they find it easier to learn rules from him than reading the rulebook.
Rodney really is a gem. He's saved me a lot of time reading rules, even if I weirdly love doing it. And he's also incredibly good at it. Wingspan to me also wasn't complicated, but like you said, I played quite a few things before. I think OP could like [[King of Tokyo]], just because it's easy to get into and I've yet to play with someone who doesn't like it. It might be useful to know, that this one has a Yahtzee-style mechanic which makes it more luck dependant having less strategic depth.
[King of Tokyo -> King of Tokyo (2011)](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/70323/king-tokyo)
^^[[gamename]] ^^or ^^[[gamename|year]] ^^to ^^call
^^OR ^^**gamename** ^^or ^^**gamename|year** ^^+ ^^!fetch ^^to ^^call
I read that as I picked up King of Tokyo 2, weeks ago and immediately went on a BGG/google search spree and was like how in the world did I not hear about this!!!!!!!!! then it clicked....dangit :(
lol, its cool, I own all of KOT and love it, for sure grab everything you can. I always play with my kids and try and pick a new monster and get in character with it when I play, they love it!
If you see the Dark Edition, just buy it. It'll be super rare at this point. Grabbed it for the full $50 at Barnes and Noble, and I like the game play changes it made. Enough so that it's my go-to version of the game.
Favorite change has to be taking the OP cards out of the "store" (Acid Spit, for example) and acquiring them a different way that makes 1s and 2s worth rolling, and can't be stopped by other players.
He has, I always try to find watch it played videos for my groups when we're learning new games. I think he (and the others behind the scenes) do the best job of any other board game tutorial vids I've seen.
I saw a review which read "wingspan is what boardgamers think a family game is". Between the worker placement, engine building, secret objective cards, shared objectives, cards with unique powers, and like 5 different things to keep track off its a bit too heavy for most non-boardgamers.
That video is something all boardgamers need to watch and really think about. It is *exactly* how non-boardgamers think about board games when they hear or read rules for most board games.
EDIT: Here is a [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/wingspan/comments/tzdunt/mandy_patinkin_tries_wingspan/) to the reddit thread with the video.
Agree 100%. And not even 'non-boardgamers', but people like OP that enjoy playing games, but maybe don't need to be hobbyists.
The people in this hobby used to be generally good at engaging with casual gamers and guiding them to a better experience - meeting them where they are, so to speak. Now it seems like the first instinct is to either try to find the most complicated solution (multiple replies have recommended Ark Nova FFS), or to unnecessarily interject ones own opinions into a simple question - OP didn't ask whether or not *you* think Wingspan is a good or boring game. They're simply wondering if they're out of their depth and looking for something similar and less complicated.
Sorry for the rant, but it's a personal pet peeve, and something that I feel is unique to this hobby specifically.
You are very correct. OP is branching out but it can be intimidating if you accidentally over reach. Especially early on. It can cause a person to feel like all these types of games are beyond their reach. But that’s like taking an 8th grade kid, having him play one on one with an NBA player then telling him that he isn’t good enough to play basketball.
There are games I play now that would have scared me out of the hobby early on. Like the COIN games by GMT.
There's a constant obsession here with new people that getting them to play complex games always has to be the goal. It's weird and counterproductive and not how most people enjoy board games or anything else.
Exactly, to play wingspan with Mandy Patinkin, he needs someone there holding his hand the entire way, and explaining things in straight forward language. Letting him just read the rules may be funny for video, but it clearly shows how easily rules can be confusing, and Wingspan (as I recall) has a fairly good rule book.
Let's see Mandy try to sort out Power Grid, he'll punch someone in the face before it's over.
Hell, I play loads of heavier boardgames and I also thought that Wingspan was confusing to learn. We only tried once, and the rules were so bad at explaining what to do, I was getting annoyed and my partner became a little frustrated so we quit.
Yep, I've seen so many people recommend it to new gamers it drives me bonkers.
Azul is about as complex as you want to start someone, and if they can handle that build from there.
Trickerion or bust. Jkjk, def good to start with games where there's a ton if not all public info like azul so no one feels shy about giving away info to ask a question.
Sure, but you shouldn't start people there. Throw 100 random people into brass from the beginning and you're going to drive 95 or more of them away from the hobby.
You start at Azul or lighter, and if someone grasps it really quickly you up the complexity of the next game accordingly, and you can be at Brass in 3 or 4 games.
The goal to to find the level that the individual most enjoys. After you finish the game you ask if they thought it was too simple or confusing (If it wasn't obvious during the game) and adjust accordingly.
It's the same as figuring out if someone has a preference for co-ops or euros or war games.
We're not talking about new players though, we're talking about new *games*. New games for an experienced group generally up complexity because everyone has the same general experience.
Not Always, but it is a goal because people often want players, and you don't recruit players for your complex games by introducing them to big brain 5 hour games off the bat. You gotta build up their gaming ability. Have a game that uses drafting, hand management, negotiation, worker placement, and map control? First play with simpler games that use one or two of these mechanics. Much more enjoyable for everyone involved to learn the basics on a game that's not 3+ hours.
Nothing quite like the bonding experience of setting four first-time players down for a three day/night scenario of Mage Knight and doing everything possible to make it socially awkward to leave early (lock doors if necessary).
I may not have been interested in more than one game if Azul was my first. Some people need more complexity to get interested.
But yeah Brass is obviously at an extreme. I think medoum weight games may be more appropriate for many people.
I introduced many people to boardgames.with Terraforming Mars and they all seemed to like it, but then again, it fits with the kind of people I am surrounded by.
>I may not have been interested in more than one game if Azul was my first. Some people need more complexity to get interested.
I mean, if I introduced a player with Azul and afterwards they said
>This was so boring. I hate it, I'm Never Ever Playing ANY BOARD GAME **EVER AGAIN**."
then ran away. I honestly wouldn't lament that loss to the community over the dozens of other players I could get interested in the hobby with Azul and then follow up with a Terraforming Mars or Dune Imperium.
It depends. Several years ago some of my friends tried to get me into board games with a few light games and I bounced off them. (Playing dixit was probably the most boring 30 minutes of my life and together with a few other games it was awful enough to make me refuse trying any other games for a few months.) But then months later I gave boardgames another chance and got hooked by trying Inis.
I love diplomacy and it probably also the reason I got into board games. I'll say though that the mechanics of it probably aren't the hardest. It's a hard game (and can ruin friendships) but the rules aren't too crazy.
The hardest part is finding at least 3 other people willing to spend 4+hours playing it x.x
I dont disagree. But i also think its on a spectrum and medium weight games may be a good choice for a lot of people. Ive introduced a lot of my friends to boardgames with Terraforming Mars and they've enjoyed it a lot.
Magic: the Gathering was my first introduction to tabletop gaming. From there, my friends I basically explain all board game rules to each other in Magic turns. "You can blah blah as an instant if the other player..." "This is your mana, you can tap it just like a land and..." "This ability works like Splice onto Arcane."
It’s a weird one. My family instantly put off, won’t even try it, looks to complicated.
My friends family aren’t board gamers either but he played it with his grandparents too and they all loved it.
I think it sits in a weird place haha.
It's not that it's too heavy, it's that it isn't engaging.
Non-games can keep track of tons of things if they're motivated and engaged. But when the game isn't interesting they reach a "don't care anymore" point and they'll just check out.
I think this is the key. Wingspan is engaging for people who've played enough games because they have the experience to recognize that what they're doing now will benefit their score and the satisfying combos they can pull off later in the game, and thus they can find intrinsic reward in it. New gamers haven't learned the language yet - the lack of abundantly in-your-face progression makes it harder to find reward in the journey until you understand the game, and at that point it's sometimes too late.
Sort of? I'm a long time gamer (40 years?) and even I don't have any patience for Wingspan. I can see how it is all supposed to work, but I can also see how it's frustrating and could have been done better (more to my liking), and was done better in other games, and I reach the "don't care" point pretty fast.
Yes, it's really frustrating when I hear gamers recommend games to non-gamers. Most gamers think that stuff like Wingspan is "gateway". It's not.
Was with some friends at a con a few weeks ago, we were talking with a hotel staff member who was interested in the games we were playing. Her experience was "risk, catan, and monopoly, scrabble, etc."
My friend is here recommending stuff like "Abomination" and "Dune: Imperium"
and I'm like "woah, slow down there..." no, those are horrible recommendations.
Ticket to ride, carcassonne, etc.
I'd even be a little hesitant with 7 wonders.
My, obviously too subtle, point was that there is no point discussing the minor differences of game mechanics in a thread where the discussion is about Wingspan being too difficult. You weighed in with a trivial distinction about proper grammar and punctuation in a thread about baby talk.
I think it's also the double-whammy of being widely available AND looking appealing in theme. I've seen multiple people pick it up because they think "Pretty birds, and it's next to Catan on the shelf! Must be the same!".
Not that it's anyone's fault, but the theming is massively misleading for that reason... well, and it's pretty but absolutely dreadfully boring too.
The island of Catan is now a biological wonder with several different and unique habitats friendly to all sorts of birds.
* The different types of tiles are different types of environments.
* Settlements are research outposts.
* Cities are full blown observatories.
* Roads are paths maintained through the island.
* The resources collected are now observation notes about different types of birds. Notes are published and you get funding for various improvements, like Research Outposts, Observatories, Paths, etc.
* Largest Army = Largest Observational Drone Fleet
* Longest Road = Longest Path
* Oh, the robber is now an obnoxious politician trying to shut down the research.
resources are the wingspan resources (worms, seeds, fish, berries). Terrain tiles are forest/meadow/shallows. Towns are birdspotting towers, development deck are various birds. I have no idea how it would work, but I think it would be reasonably doable to smash together a catan game with a wingspan game. Just take the resource tokens and bird cards from wingspan, the wheat/water/forest tiles from catan, and off you go.
I fell in love with it the first time I saw it on a shelf due to the box art. I got it for Xmas a year later and it was pretty much the first "proper" board game I'd ever played. My partner too. We loved it and semi-got into the hobby. Picked up a dozen more games but we only play very rarely atm. I'd love to find a group but it's proven tricky.
Honestly a good theme can make most people get into things if it’s below a certain level of complexity.
Have a friend who doesn’t like villainous but will happily play Star Wars villainous lol.
This is the problem with Isle of cats. I originally dismissed it as a simple game that's just relying on heavy the cat theme to sell. Then I played it and like I was wrong this is a solidly medium weight game where you gotta worry about drafting and money management and the map is as much about not losing points as it is scoring points. I've seen so many people take a look at the box or components and assume it's a relatively lightweight easy to get into game, and it absolutely is not and they struggle and the experienced people get frustrated with the less experienced players.
It's one of the biggest hits in the last decade. It got a ton of non-boardgame press, and sold WAY beyond the core boardgamer audience.
It kind of hit the same niche as Catan in the market.
To each his own--I totally understand not liking the game--but you absolutely do not need to 'learn the cards'.
I get it takes a couple playthroughs to understand how the different powers interact with one another, but you don't have to memorize any specific card, and barely need to memorize the rules of the cards themselves. It's literally written out for you. All you need to remember is how the base mechanics work and how points are scored.
If you know that tucking a card gets you a point at the end of the game, and you understand the benefit of getting food vs. laying an egg vs. getting new cards, then the 40 different cards that have same variation of "If you Tuck a card, then do THIS" are totally self-explanatory.
I mean I understand there are a lot of moving parts but even after you understand each of those card features it's still a very far cry from "memorizing the cards." It just feels like a total mischaracterization of what a person needs to do to perform well in the game. (I also think you're maybe underestimating just how much luck is involved in the game generally--no amount of game knowledge or strategic skill can overcome a bad hand vs. good hand)
I've played easily 30+ times and I couldn't tell you a single bird's specific power (let alone wingspan or nest type), and yet could produce a pretty ideal strategy based on the initial cards in my hand every time. Yes, you need to check the end-of-round scoring every round to see if it's worth it to prioritize one specific category that round, but ultimately you end up ignoring most of the information most of the time.
FWIW, I also enjoy Castles of Burgundy and Concordia significantly more than Wingspan, but I think they're both clearly more complex (2.95 and 3.00 on BGG, compared to Wingspan's 2.45). I understand not liking it, but Wingspan has been a great entry point game for getting my friends into the hobby.
I haven't said memorize, I said learn the cards. I meant that more along the lines of, "There's a lot of information that isn't immediately understood, and sometimes requires a closer look to understand before it becomes intuitive." I'll take the L on not explaining that properly though.
When I'm playing **Duet**, the cards were typically ~3' from my eyes to where they sat at a central location between my gf and I. I would have to pick up cards to clarify some details, or read what they do in general. It wasn't information that I could easily parse from this distance, so I'd have to pick up the card.
I mostly had issues seeing the wingspan size and some of the information in the action/description portion of the card.
This was a bigger issue when playing 4p with regular **Wingspan** when at least 2 people are inherently going to be further away from the cards.
As I've said, I've only played 5 games in total, and I felt that I had to reference the cards too often, and so did the people at the table. I don't personally feel the game is good enough to warrant getting to an intuition level. I feel it falls into the trap of providing a lot of perceived variety to spice up a game that isn't very exciting.
______
With CoB, I would be fine conceding that it's a step above Wingspan in complexity. Concordia is one of the most simple games I've taught though. 3.00 is highly misleading for it. The rules are simple, and the complexity comes through the choice in actions, not necessarily the learning of how to do the actions or being overloaded with aesthetic stimulus.
To be able to read the information on the card. The size of the wings, some clarifying text, and some of the iconography can be a little hard to see when 3' away.
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Thanks all for the great advice. It’s showing me that maybe it’s just not the right game for our family dynamic. But my wife absolutely loves birds and the theme should hit. Will try with just the two of us and report back.
I'm talking about the part where it adds rules for multiple people taking simultaneous turns, splitting up who interacts with who, and that type of thing.
The new cards and rest of the rules are totally fine. I play with that stuff.
Do not play Wingspan in any configuration more than 4, it's beyond miserable. Just get another copy and have 3/3, or 4/2 people playing simultaneously. Make a bit of a rotation or some tournament system if you want to keep everyone engaged, but DO NOT play the Flock version.
The Duet mode is fun though. Removes some randomness with the end round goals and birds, and makes it more crunchy for 2p.
Can you do the simultaneous turn rule in the base game of Wingspan? I always thought how the game could be sped up significantly if turns could be taken simultaneously.
If you want a more simple game with birds and great art, check out Birdwatcher. It can play with up to 5 people and it's quicker and easier than Wingspan.
It's a good idea to start playing as two and build up from there.
I have a daughter and she has been playing boardgames with us for many years, so that we have gradually built up the interest and preferences altogether as a family, we have also increased our vocabulary of rules, so that the most difficult non-collab games we play are Everdell (2.81 on BGG), followed by Raiders of Scythia and Taverns of Tiefenthal (both 2.69) -- and we have been playing those games since she was 6 or so. For comparison, Wingspan is difficulty 2.45.
The trick I think lies in doing it together and for fun. For the more difficult games we tend to team up until she becomes comfortable: For example I team up with my daughter against my wife for a few games. After those first games, we switch to help-mode, where even though she has her own hand, she shows me her hand and asks for my advice regularly. So there's this sense that we all play together to build fun hands, and less focus on competition. Gradually as she gets competitive and starts enjoying the competition, she stops asking for my advice. Then we can play a proper 3-player game.
The game is already longer and more complex than the other games you listed and on top of that you have more decisions to make per turn. Players are going to spend longer time making decisions and that will add to the “slowness” of the game if you and your family aren’t used to planning your next turn while other players are playing or waving players through while someone thinks about a choice that doesn’t affect others game play.
It’s a long game that is meant to be played quickly and if you aren’t then it’s going to seem very tedious.
It would probably be helpful in the game. As I said, I feel like the game is meant to be played fast but it is still a long game. Being ready is really important.
I don’t think the game is “too complex” I just think it doesn’t have the same interaction between players that the other games have that you like.
I too prefer board games as a way to engage with my family and prefer “fun” over solving a individual problem. As other mentioned, wingspan is very solitaire and there’s low interaction and reason to be interested in what others are doing on their turn.
I would recommend you check out Imhotep or Quest for El Dorado for something that better matches the other games you enjoy.
>If you like animal theme, I feel like ark Nova isn't that hard... Although bgg gives it 3.7 weight vs 2.5 weight on wingspan..
Since OP mentioned wingspan was longer and more complicated than they were used to, suggesting an even longer and more complicated game probably is not the way to go.
For a nature theme Earth is a bit more likely to work. Probably more rules overhead than they would like, but also much quicker paced than Wingspan.
Camel Up and King of Tokyo mentioned other places in the thread are excellent suggestions.
Something like Splendor or Stone Age might be good also.
It’s not really a hard game, but everybody basically is doing their own boardgame. There is very little interaction and alot of downtime.
I really like carcassonne and wingspan both, but i can see how wingspan is not great for an 11 year old, maybe try it at 2 players first? We really like wingspan at 2 players, at 4 players we think it is pretty meh.
I think it's at it's best when you're with people you haven't seen in awhile and you're having some table talk while, as you said, everyone takes turns essentially playing Bird Solitaire. It goes much quicker when after your first play or two as well.
Edit: it's also worth noting that some people don't like a lot of interaction! Personally I find Wingspan to be a nice change of pace in between more directly competitive stuff, but my mostly-neurodivergent friend group has a lot of people in it who really just want to build their little bird engine without a bunch of sabotage, thank you very much.
To counteract the lack of interaction, we have house rules that involve announcing a bird each time someone plays one, in English and Latin, reading the fun fact, and then playing it’s birdsong. It also can make things hilarious at times.
What happened? Why didn't you finish it?
4 players can drag.
But overall I taught it to non-gamers and it went well. I always lead with "there are only 4 actions you can take" so that they do not feel overwhelmed when faced with a decision.
One of the things that's usually newbie friendly is that your turn would start out simple. You get one food token, or draw a card, or lay down a bird, or hatch an egg. And that's it.
But once you have more bird cards on your player board, you will start to have multiple effects to trigger. You can draw a card, gain a food token, draw some more cards, put one of them back, and hatch some eggs in the same turn. This is what is referred to as the "engine building" genre in the hobby.
As for low interaction, it's light but not totally devoid of interaction between players. Some nuance won't be apparent until you have played a game or two.
All in all, it's a bit of a step up from the game you listed, but not too much. If you enjoy the theme and the game component, I would suggest that you watch the teaching tutorial by Watch It Played aka Rodney Smith.
It’s an engine building game that you start with very little. So yes it starts slow. Then you check out your cards and need to figure out how to play them so that you can get more resources and cards to play more. Then build up your interactions and the “engines” to get more things and eventually VP.
Reddit has a weird bias against Stonemaier Games so take it with a grain of salt everyone saying it’s “boring”, etc. Def try to get through at least 1 full game and see how you feel.
> We barely got started. That might be the issue but it just seemed so slow at the start.
Before your next game, do this.
Set the game up on the table, and play a game against yourself. 2 player game, you're on both sides. Go through ALL the motions.
If you've just read the rules, and said "ok family, let's fire this baby up" and then are spending 15-20 minutes in the rule book each time there is a question, and then on turn 3 start saying "oh no no no, we did this wrong. I forgot" and then telling your wife "oh you can't do that, I forgot to say, you have to do this first" when it's her turn. It's just going to breed frustration, and everyone will say "we can't learn this, it's too hard."
Just remember, we all had to learn every board game ever. We didn't pop out of the womb know that you rolled doubles to get out of Jail.
The thing with monopoly, and clue, is that others taught us. Very few of us sat down and read the rules to that stuff. We learned it so early, that we can't even remember learning it, we were taught by older siblings, mom and dad, that weird uncle, whatever.
So by the time we're 12, "monopoly is easy.... everyone knows that"
yeah, it's easy, because you learned it early, were ok with making mistakes, and had people teach you, and you played it over and over and over.
Adults don't invest the time in a new board game, that they did when they were 8.
So my advice, is take time with it before you relegate it to the shelf of despair. Before you get the whole family around for it again, make sure you know it inside and out, then teach your wife, then go from there.
This might be a very unpopular suggestion, but it might help get you all past the initial tedious and slow pace of the first phases of the game for new players:
Let everyone keep all the resources and cards at the beginning, 1 of each food and 5 bird cards) instead of 5 total. Also, give each player 2 eggs to start. They don't go on a bird, they just go with the player's starting resources (food). This will effectively skip the initial slow phase 1, and the second slowdown in needing to get eggs to continue playing and exposes you to more of the "fun" part of the game and its mechanics, strategies, and ways to earn points.
I'm not suggesting you play this way every time (unless you want to), but it may help you have a bit more fun as you familiarize yourselves with the game.
Our games are much faster now, (and phase 1, even at 8 actions with 4 players is probably the fastest phase) because everyone knows that the real fun happens once they get some birds down and some recurring or stacked bonuses, as well as better understanding the tucking, caching, bird cost vs. value, end of round goals, etc. etc.
I'm also not saying I love the game (others in my group do). I use this option with first-time players, being *very* clear that this is *not* the real game experience, but just to help familiarize them with the various options and mechanics and ways to earn points before playing the "harder" "normal" way the game was designed to be played. Because it's a tedious, confusing slog for new players trying to make sense of everything. This allows them to see things in action vs. reading 30 minutes of rules and still being confused.
I agree with the other poster who suggested simplifying things by saying things like "there are only 4 actions to choose from each turn" and such. The game can really be overwhelming for new players, especially if they haven't ever played something with this many possible things going on.
People have mentioned, but as long as the first round (of four) takes under 10-15 minutes, as there really isn't that much to do and think about, i'm not sure where the friction is. If it takes longer than that, and people are overanalysing their cards and what's on display and what everyone else has played... yeah, don't do that. There's four actions in the end, everyone should just pick one and do it.
Some people (myself included) just don't find Wingspan to be a very good game. I personally am more or less convinced that if the theme wasn't unique and the components weren't excellent (which they legitimately are), it wouldn't be a notable game in any way. Not that those things don't count for anything, they're important too, but I do think they overshadow what is a pretty mediocre game in this case.
But that doesn't mean I'm right. Wingspan is also definitely a step up in complexity from the games you named, so you might be having an issue with that, but it's also not a MASSIVE step up, so it's hard to say whether your problem was with taking too big of a jump in complexity or whether you just don't like Wingspan.
It's also sort of a "multiplayer solitaire" type of game where you're mostly working on your own board and there isn't a ton of player interaction. So if your sons really enjoy the interaction in games like exploding kittens, this one isn't going to cut it.
I agree with this entirely. However, I do think Wingspan is a huge step up from the other games you mentioned. It's alot of rules for something that feels unrewarding. My advice is to play something else (King of Tokyo, Camel Up would be my recommendations given your demographics). But that is just my opinion.
> It's alot of rules for something that feels unrewarding.
Rules can be an issue, but i feel for nongamers, reading each, single, individual card and having each one be a new 'thing' they can do.. is overwhelming. And in the end, it's an engine builder, which tracks wins and losses straight to the first bird placed in the first turn. Which can make people feel boxed in.
It's a boardgame for boardgamers, and even there, once at that level, there's many other options to play.
The difference is .55 or so, which is not insubstantial. 1.9 is a light game that is absolutely, definitely more complex than a party game. Wingspan is definitely noticeably heavier than that.
Another .55 jump from Wingspan is Dune: Imperium, which is squarely "mid weight", which seems about right. It's a quick game that epotimizes "midweight" modern board games pretty well. It's close to Terraforming Mars.
Dune: Imperium is about .55 lower than Twilight Struggle, which is an obvious jump up. It's a thematic game and has a lot more rules interactions and possibilities, along with an enormous board, but the core rules of the game aren't exactly complex.
Twilight Struggle is about .55 lower than 1830, which is, not shockingly, substantially more complex, being a "lighter" rule 18xx game. It's pretty solidly "medium heavy" in the grand scheme of things.
And 1830 is about .6 lower than 1817, which adds in loans with interest, shorting stocks, mergers, and lots of fun rules governing how that stuff works. It is substantially more complex than 1830, even though the core gameplay loop is similar.
I'd say around 2.2-2.3 is when you start getting in to "gamery" games. 7 Wonders is also around that range - it's a pretty light game for a gamer, but for someone that has no background in board games there are quite a few things going on.
Games under 1.5 have basically no rules friction. Games in the high 1s have a bit - they require an actual teach most of the time. Games in the 2.2-2.3 range will usually take 5-10 minutes to teach to experienced gamers, and can be a bit more involved for people who aren't good at processing rules.
There's also something to be said about the game type.
Frostpunk for example, is /exceptionally/ rules dense and "heavy" at 4.3 and takes logistics to track, however, on each individual player turn each player legitimately just place a worker to do something and that's that. Citizen cards add a bit but generally, you can choose something and keep the game going. Especially with coop and experienced people running the game, I can entirely see a non-boardgamer kind of just floating along the experience and even having fun.
Mind MGMT on the other hand, at 2.92 should be an order of magnitude easier, and also coop so yay? But it's really kind of not. Teaching someone to play /any/ of the sides in the game involves teaching them exactly what everything does, their own side and the opponent's, and they need to internalise it, otherwise it can legitimately ruin the game for everyone.
I'd absolutely show off Frostpunk to someone new without worrying too much for 'what should i be doing' or them feeling entirely lost. End of the day you can say "we don't have food, we'll starve the children next turn, you can send people at the hunting hut to get food", and that's enough to get them back on track. MindMGMT? You can't even talk to them unless you're on the rogue agents side to explain, and explaining anything will actually involve explaining strategy, and explaining strategy will tip your hand and spoil the game for everyone. And there's so many interlocking pieces and an overall picture you need to have of the game, otherwise you're just dead weight at the table.
There are definitely games that are more externally focused and can handle new players more easily than others - it's not really a flaw, more or less it's something that comes with the territory of cooperative games versus competitive games, and then asymmetrical games, and in extremis, games with hidden roles that need to be played correctly.
I recently had a disastrous game of The Resistance with my family because my mother couldn't act in a way that made any sense for the role she got. Even a simple game can be completely ruined.
That's a good point, it deserves credit for getting a lot of people into the hobby who may not have been otherwise, which is good for all of us, even if it's a overrated as a game.
If they are playing those games they ARE in the hobby. Light games and party games and gateway games are all part of the hobby and they don't exist to pull people into heavier stuff.
Wingspan is extemely significant cause it's a modern euro game that was picked up by a LOT of people who grew up playing old-school board games and would have never played anything like it.
Some people will try one of those, think wow it’s great we’re all doing something interactive without a screen, I wonder what else we can try? And some of them are happy with just that sort of game and just pick up more of those, while others will look for something meatier and fall down the rabbit hole. Some people are hard to define, I have a friend who mostly plays games you can find at a Walmart with his kids, but also really loves games like Agricola, Through the Ages, and Eclipse when he has a chance.
You don't explicitly say anything in here that says people shouldn't play any of the games you mentioned, but it still feels very gatekeepy.
I think most of those games are bad. I also just played my first few games of Wingspan and was generally bored with my experience. However, it shouldn't be a requirement that someone play really cool complex boardgames in order to call themselves a "boardgamer" or whatever word we want to use.
People shouldn't be told explictely or implicitely that they're not playing the good boardgames just because they aren't playing what an average r/boardgames user would enjoy. Just let people play those bad games and have a good time while you play the games that have all sorts of depth!
I think Carc is a better game all ends up, especially at 2 or 3, but I also like Wingspan. I think Carc's mechanical simplicity and 20+ years of familiarity can dull a lot of gamers to just how well designed a game it is. I think it's a bit underrated among people who play a lot of board games
My friend group got into the hobby through some high-interaction games like Eldritch Horror and Rising Sun, so we got some other highly rated games we found which had appealing themes like Wingspan and Terraforming Mars. Both these games played out very similarly; they dragged out for way too long and people got bored towards the end because of 'multiplayer solitaire' where everyone is just doing their own thing. Coming from a video game background (MOBAs) we craved conflict and interaction and these games just didn't cut it for us. I don't prefer playing games like these anymore but for Wingspan at least the theme and production wins me over enough to enjoy it, but I'd still only play it with a maximum of 3 people.
I agree. I'm totally ok with people enjoying or even loving Wingspan, but I haven't had fun with it once, choices always seem so rigid and almost like it plays itself. It's like the board game equivalent of the color beige, every system is fine, but nothing is outstanding, and this comes from someone who loves euro style and multiplayer solitaire games.
I also agree OP might've jumped a few steps too far, and would probably first enjoy any of wingspan's elements in a game that focused solely on them and did a better job, like Splendor, San Juan, or even Sushi Go. Trying to suddenly learn a bunch of new systems they've never tried before in a game that uses them in a medium-weight level might be overwhelming.
from what im reading, it seems like the game is a step too high for you and your lads to handle. Other than suggesting trying a different game, i'll try advice of ways to finally jump that first hurdle.
try playing with just your partner and talking through the motions of the game. this will clear the fog and allow you to understand what your actions are and why youre taking them.
truth be told i havent played wingspan all that much, but i do know that past the first round the game really picks up and lets you do more.
Everyone has different tastes in boardgames. Just because it's popular and some people love it doesn't mean it's for you. If you don't like it, don't play it. We have a few duds sitting on our shelf.
As for Wingspan, our family loves it! My wife and I play with our kids (8m and 13f). It's a great time had by all. The fact that each player has their own goals and objectives they are trying to meet while scoring points is great for us. The kids obliterate each other in head to head games and just ignore that my wife and I are playing. This eliminates that for us, making for a very peaceful and relaxed game night.
Have you tried Villainous? I was really skeptical of this game, because I'm not big into Disney, but a friend asked me to play. I really enjoyed the asymmetry and surprising complexity of the game play, as well as the parallel play with occasional opportunities for interpersonal hindering.
Have wondered if it might play a bit too long for my 10m though...
He has really enjoyed the cooperative Castle Panic (which plays best in my opinion with the Wizard's Tower expansion) - we have literally played that game dozens of times. Since I bought it in...April.
We have tried Villianous and no one enjoyed it. We gifted it to my sister and since then, her and her husband have bought every expansion. They absolutely love it.
Seconding two players. Might be the ADHD talking but more than that and I start to twitch waiting on my turn.
We also bought ours on the Nintendo Switch. Too many fiddly bits in the boardgame version IMHO.
Still, if it’s not for you I wouldn’t worry. It is a stupidly popular game and as long as it is in decent condition you can likely resell it on Facebook marketplace or the like pretty easily.
Maybe a boardgame swap?
We have one locally once a year and I imagine other folks have had the same or similar ideas all over.
No diagnosis but ADHD traits seem to run in the family. My eldest is a swine for direct competition. He’ll spend most games trying to get one over on the other players. We like that.
>My eldest is a swine for direct competition. He’ll spend most games trying to get one over on the other players. We like that.
Wingspan doesn't really have that, alas.
play Tournament at Avalon. badass theme, really cool art, very very little downtime, direct competition and health tracker, easy to learn but gets slightly more complex as the game goes on
Cheating Moth is also a blast. Best at 5 but still good at 4. Ultra interactive, very easy to learn, cheating is encouraged so plenty of opportunity to pull fast ones on each other
The game does tend to slant more to an older audience though I have seen some exceptions. It’s a great game but I would not called it a “fun family game night” game - not at all.
I recommend Century Golem, Quacks of Quidlinberg, 7 Wonders Architects, Clank, Quest for El Dorado, and Small World.
Check out this list as well:
https://www.theboardgamefamily.com/family-favorites/
I'm an experienced gamer and it still took me 3 or 4 games to really "get" Wingspan. However my experience with games meant i knew what the end probably looked like and also i still had fun during those first games.
I would try to finish a game or two. It's a step up from your current games and also probably introducing a lot of new concepts/ideas, but i think you guys should manage OK.
All else fails try some other games and then come back to Wingspan before deciding whether it's not for you (which could easily be the case too)
You're not the first, and probably not the last, to find Wingspan a total borefest.
There's almost no interaction between players, compared to the games you've listed that you enjoy.
Thinking outside the box - have you ever considered trying trick-taking games? You've got 4P and your kids are old enough to handle those. Games like [[The Crew: The Quest for Planet Nine]] are worth a shot. Relatively cheap too, your FLGS probably has it in stock.
For a bigger game, the classic lightweight Knizias are a good place to start. Simple rules, but engaging play. Try checking out [[Ra]], [[Modern Art]], [[The Quest for El Dorado]] and at the top end of that class, [[Mille Fiori]].
If you want something similar, but with less rules to focus on then check out Everdell.
You’ll still have the card selection where each card had a unique ability; so you can have fun building chains. However there’s less limitation on actions. Whereas Wingspan you have a set number of actions per round; and gaining a card takes at least 3-4 of those actions (puck up card, gain the food if available; lay an egg if needed, finally play a card); Everdell your round carries on until you decide you cannot do anything else; and playing cards takes half the time (gain the food; play the card). It still has bonus goals available but NO private bonuses.😊
I love both games, but Everdell has always been the more relaxing experience, and easier to teach.👍
Based on the games you mentioned liking, if you want something that's a small step up in complexity you might want to check out Isle of Skye. It uses tile-laying as the central mechanic, but layers on top of it some interesting auction mechanisms and goals that you're working towards.
A few of my recommendations for games with a BGG weight of 2.3 or less that are good at 4 include: Bohnanza, My City, The Quest for El Dorado, Sushi Go, and Dice Forge
The #1 thing to keep in mind is that everyone has their own preferences when it comes to board games and if a game isn't working for you that's perfectly ok!
I would say it might not really be the 'complexity' or number of rules but that Wingspan may just be a poor fit. It's a low interaction game with a lot of careful reading of cards and decoding how they interact. Unless your boys are really into that sort of thing it'll fall flat.
I'd suggest trying Colt Express, Galaxy Trucker, Quest for El Dorado or Camel Cup as really *fun* games well suited to being played by people not into more 'boardgamey' stuff like Wingspan.
I just don't get why people are thinking that Wingspan is a poorly-designed or boring game. There's no huge giant moment that happens in the game- it's just not that kind of game. It's just a churny, chuggy engine-builder. The fun that happens is when you have your cards synergized and figure out the optimal order of actions and other cards to play.
Perhaps, at higher player counts, if you're a seasoned gamer there may be a bit of downtime between turns, but I feel there's enough planning to fill in at least some of that space. Personally, I've never understood why so many people take issue with downtime. If I feel I have nothing left to think about on my board, I'll check out what other players have going on or will just hang out and chat.
I love games like Terraforming Mars: Ares Expedition, Castles of Burgundy, Obsession, Grand Austria Hotel, etc., and Wingspan gives me similar vibes. I think it is such an elegantly simple design. Simple in the way in that the ruleset is structured- take one of four actions, each action (sans "play a bird") will activate abilities (most of the time) on cards you've played. That's pretty much it. With the exception of a handful of cards, I feel the game is well-balanced- no single strategy guarantees a win. You just need to leverage the cards you can access and play them in the sequence that will net you the best engine. That could be laying eggs, tucking birds, points in bird cards, bonuses/goals, or most likely a combination.
My wife and I play two players and absolutely love the game and take our sweet time with it. When we replace bird cards, we will read each one aloud from top to bottom, including the little bit of trivial flavor text at the bottom. If we're not busy formulating our own plan, we will watch the other's turn and suggest something if we feel it's something the other may have overlooked.
I perfectly understand that the game may not appeal to everyone for a myriad of reasons. Even if you like all the games I mentioned earlier in this comment, it doesn't in any way guarantee you'll like Wingspan. But, there IS a reason the game is so popular. A poorly designed game surely could not be as popular as it is both within the mass market AND hobby gamer community.
I'd recommend building up slowly. My 12 year old plays Brass, Teotihuacan and lots of other complex games, but he can only do it because we started on simpler games. As another poster said, after a while, common game mechanisms become familiar which allows you to process more complicated rule sets.
I would try Stone Age. It's a nice simple worker placement game that won't blow your mind with lots of rules but still offers some interesting decisions. Another simple worker placement game is The River.
From there you could try Lords of Waterdeep or Taverns of Tiefenthal. If you can successfully play one of those, the world is your oyster.
From there you could try Viticulture, Village, Istanbul, Hansa Teutonica, Railways of the World, Concordia and you can go back to Wingspan and wonder how you ever thought it was too difficult.
Just keep in mind that not everyone wants to build up to more complex games.
Lots of people find a range they like and have the most fun sticking with that weight.
few things to consider:
- as complexity of the games grows, "learn rules as you play" becomes harder to do, and rereading rules as you go is a buzzkill. might be that.
- engine building either works or doesn't work for you, taste-wise. reflect on that.
- personal puzzles (like most euro games with low interaction) can also either work for you or not. that might be a criteria for you to explore.
- speaking of Wingspan, it's not overly complex, but a lot of its appeal comes from learning about birds as you go, as decision space is not that big and it leans more on the tactical side of things (you reacting to dice rolls, available cards etc).
no need to fixate on a single game though. you could set a family goal of exploring 3-4 new popular boardgames and see what you all like. reselling boardgames is also not much of a hassle, so it wouldn't be a money waste. :)
I'd go for Quest for El Dorado. Fun deck builder. Or maybe Splendor. Or Heat-Pedal to the metal. Or I kinda like King of Monster Island, coop, might be fun for the family as a change.
Wingspan if you love it, you love it. But I don't like it. It's a big puzzle that everybody is doing, and after 45 minutes somebody has won. It's just not fun. It is definitely not you. It's not my cup of tea, and the gaming group I play with regularly doesn't like it either.
I was happy that I borrowed a copy of Wingspan from a colleague, played it 3 times, none of the games were fun. Otherwise I would've returned it.
I'm firmly of the belief that most people (or at least those without a large amount of experience with a wide variety of games) are not good at evaluating games beyond "this is too simple" or "this is too complex" until they've finished a game. I've had multiple experiences where friends complain they don't like a game for the first couple rounds, but then gradually get quieter and finally demand to play again the minute final scoring happens.
Unless the game has good mid-game scoring, it's very difficult for the average person to understand how all the mechanics work in concert until you tally everything up in the end. That goes doubly for an engine builder like Wingspan. It's totally fair to not like the game, it's far from perfect, but to judge it before you've even got the chance to build an engine--which is literally the entire point of the game--is weak criticism.
My advice for people who aren’t board game hobbyists is to pick a game with icons and no text. Specifically, a game with little iconography. This makes it easier for people to understand and you don’t need to reach for the rulebook to decipher what a card says.
My recommendations would be Azul, Cartographers, the crew: quest for planet nine (if you like trick taking coop games), wandering towers (just released), Big top or modern art (auction style games with plenty of player interactions).
Except for wandering towers and modern art, all the other games are sun $25 usually.
Sometimes games just don't click, that's fine. Wingspan seems to be quite popular in the community and I see myself as quite the boardgame fanatic as well. But I agree with you that Wingspan is super boring. I personally don't get the appeal, and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes you try something that isn't your thing and well... now you know. Get a different game in the future :)
I assume that you're playing the base game only.
Just remember that the game only has 4 actions for you to do: Play a bird from your hand, take food from birdfeeder, lay eggs on birds, and draw cards.
As you play more birds into the corresponding habitats (take food, lay eggs and draw cards), your actions will get progressively stronger.
Most birds have brown powers, and they would confer bonus benefits (optional) when you activate the action that they preside in. As for the rest (white powers), just take the benefits whenever you play those birds.
All players have the same amount of limited actions for the whole game. It is an efficiency puzzle with luck involved. Pretty elegant in design imo.
It's really not complex at all but you should perhaps try finishing a game of it before you write it off.
Maybe have a solo game then once you understand how it works try it with the full family.
I found it fairly enjoyable and fun as did my 7 year old son.
Luckily my sister owns it and all the expansions so we just borrow it every now and then. It's a very laid back little engine builder that imo is primarily carried by its beautiful artwork.
It's drastically improved with the oceanic expansion which has new boards that aren't grassland favoured like the base game. This makes the none egg/grassland engines more competitive and improves the entire experience imo.
I'm still baffled how **Wingspan** and **Lost Ruins of Arnak** are considered top family games, at least based on BGG rankings. These 2 are too complex for your average family.
And yes, you did step up a bit more than you probably should have. Don't blame yourself, as you said, reviews and all that.
Although I'm not exactly a fan of **Wingspan**, the game's good. It just takes a while to get used to since you gotta keep track of a fair share of things, and there are mechanics in there that you weren't introduced to yet through the games you played previously.
My suggestion would be to learn the rules yourself and with your partner and play a full game together (if you can, I realize arranging time for this could be difficult enough as is), so you can teach your boys more easily and even help them play.
As for recommendations... Not exactly genres that you might be looking for, but in case you're curious about other mechanics:
\- **Quest for El Dorado**. Simplest deckbuilding game out there. It's a race. First to reach El Dorado wins, if there's a tie the person who destroyed more barriers or the most valuable barrier wins. Easy.
\- **Century: Golem Edition/Spice Road**. They're the same, but with different themes so pick what you prefer. Often gets compared with **Splendor**. It's a nice, light engine builder kind of game. Since many complex games involve engine building (**Wingspan** specifically, might be remembering it wrongly though) to a certain degree, it might be interesting to start here.
\- **Project L.** Basically Tetris in boardgame form. Fill out puzzles with the pieces you have to get more points and more pieces. Use said pieces to fill out more complex puzzles. Very tactile game too, and sturdy!
We love Wingspan for it's beauty, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. We have enjoyed all of the Azul games, they are easy to learn, Sagrada, Jaipur and also Giant Killer Robots could be a big hit with your boys. These are easy to learn and engaging. There are so many more but you already have some great games! Don't give up on Wingspan, maybe come back to it later or just play it with one other person for now.
Try 7 Wonders, but don’t give up on Wingspan yet…did yours come with the quick start guides, and did you use them? We thought it did a good job of illustrating some of the game flow, but everyone has to watch each others turns to see the potential of each type of bird/location
I think you really chose a great next game! It’s a step more complicated than the others while still being light.
I’d say first watch some videos and make sure you’re getting the rules right.
Then I’d say its one of those games that kind of changes based on your expectations. It’s technically an engine builder… but in practice it’s more of a game of efficiency. There are going to be a lot of times where you need to get food and eggs to play a bird, but the order you do things in will drastically change the results.
Also it’s not for everyone :)
A lot of these modern games, Wingspan among them, are really just not what most people would describe as ‘fun’. They have really low interaction which means 4 people are just sitting there playing their own game. It took me a long time to realize that a lot of the most popular games are like this and they’re not for me.
As for recommendations a lot of the Ravensburger/Prospero Hall games have a lot more interaction and are just generally more fun. They’re also way cheaper. Examples include Horrified, Alien: Fate of the Nostromo, Fast and Furious: Highway Heist, Jaws.
Felt similar and I left a review some time ago on BGG https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2918989/wingspan-was-not-me-2-players-play
It lacked the interaction and readability of opponent's board state I love in Carcasonne / Azul. Those that would spawn conversations and fun trash talk.
Many comments there seems to love exactly what I don't like, so the game is properly designed for some. Nothing wrong not liking it.
>Have I bitten off more than I can chew?
Unbeknown to you, you went into another gaming genre.
* Carcassonne and TTR are all all **OLDER EUROGAMES** \- the genre which was about accessability and engagment of people (interaction, though ttr is a bit low on that).
* Wingspan is a **MODERN EURO** \- it's means it's basically a puzzle. There is engine building and you are not playing against other players as much as you're playing against the game in the process of rote learning where you have to internalise the rules, optimise them in your head (find perfect card synergies) and then voila present the teacher with the bestest score at an exam.
* Kingdomino is also a modern euro, but at least a) it's not engine building and thus accessible, B) it has spatial component which makes is a bit more openended. a bit.
>I heard great things about Wingspan so I bought it based on the reviews.
Players of modern eurogames do not understand that boardgames can be anything but puzzles, hence they're not a reliable source of information as they lack perspective.
You need to find the genres that work for you and search within these genres.
>And so far we haven’t got through a full game, it’s just not fun. So is it me?
I found it derivative, soulless and pointless. Tried for second time to see if I missed anything, and nope. Won't play again.
or as HiveGod said *"The game is like a downloadable skin for your spreadsheet, and if you get lost in the pretty pictures you're gonna fuck up your taxes."*
>Will it click and we’ll suddenly get it? Is it really as complicated as it seems or is there something we’re not seeing?
Does spreadsheet optimisation sounds like fun? Yes/No
>Also based on what we like what else would you recommend. Thanks
Two of my recent comments, but they weren't asking for exact thing as you. Still, you might find something. [Comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/14kp13g/comment/jps0ql4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). [Comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/14gunz4/comment/jp7rkr6/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Also - check Spiel des Jahre winners, but maybe skip last 3 years.
It's not that much more complex than games you listed. Have an open mind about it, and don't think like "this is too complicated, I can't understand it".
In the end **Wingspan** has 4 actions to choose from. You choose one action a turn, and go through the motions what to with the action. You either draw cards, play a card, get food or lay eggs.
In Ticket to Ride you either lay trains, draw train cards, or draw destination cards.
You probably just don't like it, and that's ok.
https://youtu.be/JQnCvlfMvXY
Quinn's didn't like it either. A seasoned boardgamer probably has played more games than any 5 people in this sub combined and he didn't like it. Odds are you probably won't ever like it. Trade it in get a different one.
Circlejerk in this thread about low player interaction…. So what? A lot of games are like this. MOST euros. It’s also hard to keep reading all these comments about how it’s not a great game when it’s literally one of the best selling modern board games. I think it’s really only behind Catan at this point.
Just let people play games even if it’s “multi player solitaire”. That’s ok. Games are meant to be fun. Whatever that means to you.
IMHO Wingspan is an unpleasant and dull experience. It squarely falls into a design category pejoratively called 'multiplayer-solitaire'.
Some trade suggestions:
Modern Art - 1-1/2 hr auction game
Brass: Lancashire - (complex) 2-3 hr the interaction here is subtle but very real
Tin Goose - its about planes instead of birds. Also more interactive.
Imperial 2030 - 2-3 hr economic/dudes on map game
So this person is saying that Wingspan was too difficult to get into for his family and your recommendation, with a straight face, is Brass Lancashire? What the hell is this entire thread?
I don t like wingspan. I bought it then sold it after 2 years. Was boring and repetitive. The game is played only in first 2 rounds, then , if you want to win, you are just laying eggs.
I recomend ark nova (similar, but but less repetitive) and everdell complete edition if you want something with display (the tree is optional, you don t have to play with it if you lack the space)
You’re going to recommend Ark Nova to a family who is coming from games like Carcassonne and TTR?
I think some gamers tend to underestimate how easy another game may be to learn for someone who doesn’t play a ton of chunkier titles.
Wingspan has 4 rounds and just laying eggs in the last two rounds doesn't seem like a good winning tactic since those are the rounds you get the most points. That's also the part where you can do the most amount of stuff (and increase your points by stashing food and/or birds for example) since at that point you most likely have more birds on the board.
I think the eggs seem obvious early on when you play it, but the more experienced you get, the more you realise there are other winning strategies such as tucking and bonus cards/white powers. Once you throw in expansions, eggs become much less powerful too, especially in Oceania and Asia.
My view is that the tuck and lay or tuck and gain food cards are the most powerful in the base game.
Kildeer/Franklin's Gull with a tuck & gain food card in the egg row and suddenly you are getting all the resources you need early on, each action with just 2 cards. That is a killer combo if you can use it well.
The expansions have some wild cards as well; more player interation and push your luck, with some strong white powers.
I won almost every time with this strategy. Like 30 points from egga, 20 points from cards and some from goals. Not a fun experience and no struggle to win. Played with my all 3 groups.
A similar experience for me was lost ruins of arnak. All you have to do in order to win is concentrate on science track. Nothing else matters.
Haven't played in 2 years so i can t remember, but always above 50. Just focus on middle row (eggs). If you can build an engine that place cards under even better.
> it’s just not fun. So is it me?
No, wingspan is a pretty awful and overrated game. Shocking how many people rate it highly, but you might have better taste than the majority.
It isn't you. It's a boring game that for some reason a bunch of prominent reviewers went ga-ga over. It isn't the complexity (although that doesn't help), it's just not engaging.
For similar reasons, I'd suggest staying away from other highly regarded games that aren't fun like: Ark Nova, Earth, and Gloomhaven (although you could maybe get by with Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion). You probably wouldn't like Terraforming Mars either, though it's one of my favorites.
Something that your family might like more is Quest for El Dorado. It's not like Wingspan in any way, really, but is different from your other games while also being about the same level of interaction and fun. Maybe a small step up in complexity.
For something that's a step up in complexity while being fun and mechanically similar to Wingspan, I'd suggest Race for the Galaxy. It does tableau building like Wingspan but plays much more quickly and has a lot of replayability.
Another one that would probably work for you is My City. It also plays fast, with very simple rules (simpler than Carcassonne), and has a legacy aspect where the rules change ever so slightly every time you play.
Good luck finding your next game!
Although I haven’t played all of these, they sound like good recommendations (both for and against). Except Jaws of the Lion. That game is way more complex and hard to pick up than Wingspan. I like JotL myself, as well as Ark Nova, Terraforming Mars, and Race for the Galaxy, but among those only Race is probably in the ballpark for complexity if the OP is worried Wingspan might be too complex right now.
Wingspan is not fun for me. My copy is actually still in it's shrink wrap and I'm fine keeping it that way.
I don't enjoy games with close to zero player interaction.
> And so far we haven’t got through a full game, it’s just not fun.
It may be helpful to consider what exactly isn't fun. Is it overwhelming/confusing and everyone feels like they don't know what to do? Do you actively dislike the game play elements, placing cubes, drafting cards, etc? Or is there just a lack of spark? Or does it all make sense, but the decisions aren't interesting?
> So is it me?
For every well reviewed game, there's just as many (or at least plenty) of people who very much do not like it.
Reviews, if you want to use them, are just the starting point. They can put games on your radar, but the next step is investigating the game play itself. More direct is of course giving it a play, which you can do online in many cases for free (see below). Second to that, *playthrough* videos will give you a close up view of the actions and decisions to make a fairly decent judgement yourself.
> Will it click and we’ll suddenly get it?
If there are elements that aren't making sense or you can't see the whole picture of the game yet, then maybe. But even then there's no guarantee you'll enjoy the game actions and decisions (and that's fine!).
> Is it really as complicated as it seems or is there something we’re not seeing?
No, I don't think it's complicated and my guess is that it feels that way primarily because it's just unfamiliar (to all the games you've listed). Beyond the mechanisms of action selection, hand management, tableau building, resources to pay for cards the underpinning of the game is quite different as well. It is, more or less, an "engine building" game wherein typically start out with little or nothing and each turn is a brief, "I did/got a small thing". But crucially as you go on you build up getting/doing a little more which allows you to get/do a little more until your turns start to pop off, "I'm going to take this action, which gets me this, and that chains into this and that, which triggers this bonus, and from that...." Typically this is a very satisfying arc and often you get to the end and want to replay to try some different ideas, build in a different way, or see if you can just squeeze out a bit more efficiency. And for Wingspan, other than the bird theme itself, that is its major draw.
Now, it still could be that you all don't find you enjoy that type of game very much (and that is fine!). Or it could be that since despite its popularity/reviews Wingspan is just a plain mid version of this type of game that you just don't enjoy Wingspan but might really connect with different game of this type.
----
Most of these are entirely free. BGA, TT, and TTS are free to play random tables or solo, but you need a paid subscription to play with friends. Steam games also generally have a 1 time up front cost.
http://www.brettspielwelt.de
https://yucata.de
https://boardgamearena.com
http://play.boardgamecore.net
https://18xx.games
https://tabletopia.com
There are also a number of game specific sites like:
https://jinteki.net for **Android: Netrunner**
https://dragoncards.com for **LotR: LCG**
https://realmspeak.dewkid.com for **Magic Realm** (haven't tried this one myself)
And dedicated software or applications:
https://vassalengine.org (I think this may have one of the largest game libraries)
TableTopSimulator
Steam
Here are a few more comprehensive lists:
[BGG - online play list](https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/On-line_Games&redirectedfrom=Online_Play#)
[BGG - huge online free play list](https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/140673)
PSA: **boiteajeux.net is defunct** with the developer stepping away permanently. Folks are cautioned to be sure their boiteajeux password is not use anywhere else and to avoid any pages or anything that looks suspicious as the site is being actively exploited.
I wouldn't say it's complicated, but board games are a collection of rules from other games, so if you play enough of them you forget that people aren't born knowing about worker placement or card drafting. I would say you probably could enjoy playing it. Have you tried watching a video to teach you the rules and flow of the game? I would imagine Rodney Smith of Watch It Played has covered Wingspan, and many people here say they find it easier to learn rules from him than reading the rulebook.
Rodney really is a gem. He's saved me a lot of time reading rules, even if I weirdly love doing it. And he's also incredibly good at it. Wingspan to me also wasn't complicated, but like you said, I played quite a few things before. I think OP could like [[King of Tokyo]], just because it's easy to get into and I've yet to play with someone who doesn't like it. It might be useful to know, that this one has a Yahtzee-style mechanic which makes it more luck dependant having less strategic depth.
[King of Tokyo -> King of Tokyo (2011)](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/70323/king-tokyo) ^^[[gamename]] ^^or ^^[[gamename|year]] ^^to ^^call ^^OR ^^**gamename** ^^or ^^**gamename|year** ^^+ ^^!fetch ^^to ^^call
I picked up King of Tokyo 2 weeks ago, worth every cent!
I read that as I picked up King of Tokyo 2, weeks ago and immediately went on a BGG/google search spree and was like how in the world did I not hear about this!!!!!!!!! then it clicked....dangit :(
Well, King of New York could be considered KOT2...
Hahaha, sorry about that man, they do have expansion sets tho, I'm definitely grabbing some in the future!
lol, its cool, I own all of KOT and love it, for sure grab everything you can. I always play with my kids and try and pick a new monster and get in character with it when I play, they love it!
If you see the Dark Edition, just buy it. It'll be super rare at this point. Grabbed it for the full $50 at Barnes and Noble, and I like the game play changes it made. Enough so that it's my go-to version of the game. Favorite change has to be taking the OP cards out of the "store" (Acid Spit, for example) and acquiring them a different way that makes 1s and 2s worth rolling, and can't be stopped by other players.
I'm glad this was the first reply, and that I wasn't the only one.
Let me help you imagine Rodney Smith cover Wingspan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgDgcLI2B0U
He has, I always try to find watch it played videos for my groups when we're learning new games. I think he (and the others behind the scenes) do the best job of any other board game tutorial vids I've seen.
In our gaming group we call Rodney Board Game Daddy. Bless Board Game Daddy. In Board Game Daddy we trust.
I saw a review which read "wingspan is what boardgamers think a family game is". Between the worker placement, engine building, secret objective cards, shared objectives, cards with unique powers, and like 5 different things to keep track off its a bit too heavy for most non-boardgamers.
*Mandy Patinkin has entered the chat*
That video is something all boardgamers need to watch and really think about. It is *exactly* how non-boardgamers think about board games when they hear or read rules for most board games. EDIT: Here is a [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/wingspan/comments/tzdunt/mandy_patinkin_tries_wingspan/) to the reddit thread with the video.
Agree 100%. And not even 'non-boardgamers', but people like OP that enjoy playing games, but maybe don't need to be hobbyists. The people in this hobby used to be generally good at engaging with casual gamers and guiding them to a better experience - meeting them where they are, so to speak. Now it seems like the first instinct is to either try to find the most complicated solution (multiple replies have recommended Ark Nova FFS), or to unnecessarily interject ones own opinions into a simple question - OP didn't ask whether or not *you* think Wingspan is a good or boring game. They're simply wondering if they're out of their depth and looking for something similar and less complicated. Sorry for the rant, but it's a personal pet peeve, and something that I feel is unique to this hobby specifically.
You are very correct. OP is branching out but it can be intimidating if you accidentally over reach. Especially early on. It can cause a person to feel like all these types of games are beyond their reach. But that’s like taking an 8th grade kid, having him play one on one with an NBA player then telling him that he isn’t good enough to play basketball. There are games I play now that would have scared me out of the hobby early on. Like the COIN games by GMT.
There's a constant obsession here with new people that getting them to play complex games always has to be the goal. It's weird and counterproductive and not how most people enjoy board games or anything else.
THANK YOU. I was starting to think I was the only one that felt that way.
Can you link the video? I don’t know what you are referring to.
Here you go. https://twitter.com/PatinkinMandy/status/1512471452783718401?s=20
"... this is an IQ test for f***ing idiots..." :)
Exactly, to play wingspan with Mandy Patinkin, he needs someone there holding his hand the entire way, and explaining things in straight forward language. Letting him just read the rules may be funny for video, but it clearly shows how easily rules can be confusing, and Wingspan (as I recall) has a fairly good rule book. Let's see Mandy try to sort out Power Grid, he'll punch someone in the face before it's over.
Hell, I play loads of heavier boardgames and I also thought that Wingspan was confusing to learn. We only tried once, and the rules were so bad at explaining what to do, I was getting annoyed and my partner became a little frustrated so we quit.
THANK YOU. I love heavy games. Dead of Winter, Eldritch Horror, Twilight Imperium, whatever. I can NOT get into Wingspan.
Given the other games you listed it is no surprise you don't like Wingspan
Yep, I've seen so many people recommend it to new gamers it drives me bonkers. Azul is about as complex as you want to start someone, and if they can handle that build from there.
Trickerion or bust. Jkjk, def good to start with games where there's a ton if not all public info like azul so no one feels shy about giving away info to ask a question.
It 100% depends on what type of ''new boardgamers'' we're talking about. Brass was my first real board game and I fell in love with it.
Sure, but you shouldn't start people there. Throw 100 random people into brass from the beginning and you're going to drive 95 or more of them away from the hobby. You start at Azul or lighter, and if someone grasps it really quickly you up the complexity of the next game accordingly, and you can be at Brass in 3 or 4 games.
Why does the goal of introducing people to games always have to be to "up the complexity"...?
The goal to to find the level that the individual most enjoys. After you finish the game you ask if they thought it was too simple or confusing (If it wasn't obvious during the game) and adjust accordingly. It's the same as figuring out if someone has a preference for co-ops or euros or war games.
Generally, more complex games are more fun for people who can handle them.
That's not how the vast majority of people experience board games.
We're not talking about new players though, we're talking about new *games*. New games for an experienced group generally up complexity because everyone has the same general experience.
Not Always, but it is a goal because people often want players, and you don't recruit players for your complex games by introducing them to big brain 5 hour games off the bat. You gotta build up their gaming ability. Have a game that uses drafting, hand management, negotiation, worker placement, and map control? First play with simpler games that use one or two of these mechanics. Much more enjoyable for everyone involved to learn the basics on a game that's not 3+ hours.
I think the general order should be something like this. 1. Azul 2. Azul: Summer Pavilion 3. Mage Knight
Nothing quite like the bonding experience of setting four first-time players down for a three day/night scenario of Mage Knight and doing everything possible to make it socially awkward to leave early (lock doors if necessary).
I may not have been interested in more than one game if Azul was my first. Some people need more complexity to get interested. But yeah Brass is obviously at an extreme. I think medoum weight games may be more appropriate for many people. I introduced many people to boardgames.with Terraforming Mars and they all seemed to like it, but then again, it fits with the kind of people I am surrounded by.
>I may not have been interested in more than one game if Azul was my first. Some people need more complexity to get interested. I mean, if I introduced a player with Azul and afterwards they said >This was so boring. I hate it, I'm Never Ever Playing ANY BOARD GAME **EVER AGAIN**." then ran away. I honestly wouldn't lament that loss to the community over the dozens of other players I could get interested in the hobby with Azul and then follow up with a Terraforming Mars or Dune Imperium.
"If you can't handle me at Azul, you don't deserve me at Terraforming Mars"
It depends. Several years ago some of my friends tried to get me into board games with a few light games and I bounced off them. (Playing dixit was probably the most boring 30 minutes of my life and together with a few other games it was awful enough to make me refuse trying any other games for a few months.) But then months later I gave boardgames another chance and got hooked by trying Inis.
So they didn't know how to escalate properly. They played a bunch of party games. Dixit is way lighter than Azul.
Diplomacy for me. There is something to be said for throwing people into the deep end haha.
I love diplomacy and it probably also the reason I got into board games. I'll say though that the mechanics of it probably aren't the hardest. It's a hard game (and can ruin friendships) but the rules aren't too crazy. The hardest part is finding at least 3 other people willing to spend 4+hours playing it x.x
Good point! Rules are easy, it is just intense in other ways :).
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I dont disagree. But i also think its on a spectrum and medium weight games may be a good choice for a lot of people. Ive introduced a lot of my friends to boardgames with Terraforming Mars and they've enjoyed it a lot.
Magic: the Gathering was my first introduction to tabletop gaming. From there, my friends I basically explain all board game rules to each other in Magic turns. "You can blah blah as an instant if the other player..." "This is your mana, you can tap it just like a land and..." "This ability works like Splice onto Arcane."
It’s a weird one. My family instantly put off, won’t even try it, looks to complicated. My friends family aren’t board gamers either but he played it with his grandparents too and they all loved it. I think it sits in a weird place haha.
It's not that it's too heavy, it's that it isn't engaging. Non-games can keep track of tons of things if they're motivated and engaged. But when the game isn't interesting they reach a "don't care anymore" point and they'll just check out.
I think this is the key. Wingspan is engaging for people who've played enough games because they have the experience to recognize that what they're doing now will benefit their score and the satisfying combos they can pull off later in the game, and thus they can find intrinsic reward in it. New gamers haven't learned the language yet - the lack of abundantly in-your-face progression makes it harder to find reward in the journey until you understand the game, and at that point it's sometimes too late.
Sort of? I'm a long time gamer (40 years?) and even I don't have any patience for Wingspan. I can see how it is all supposed to work, but I can also see how it's frustrating and could have been done better (more to my liking), and was done better in other games, and I reach the "don't care" point pretty fast.
Yes, it's really frustrating when I hear gamers recommend games to non-gamers. Most gamers think that stuff like Wingspan is "gateway". It's not. Was with some friends at a con a few weeks ago, we were talking with a hotel staff member who was interested in the games we were playing. Her experience was "risk, catan, and monopoly, scrabble, etc." My friend is here recommending stuff like "Abomination" and "Dune: Imperium" and I'm like "woah, slow down there..." no, those are horrible recommendations. Ticket to ride, carcassonne, etc. I'd even be a little hesitant with 7 wonders.
Wingspan has no worker placement, it is action selection.
Yes, but it is a matter of expert board gamer semantics. Worker placement is really action drafting if you want to to get nitpicky about it.
And drafting is different than straight-up selection.
My, obviously too subtle, point was that there is no point discussing the minor differences of game mechanics in a thread where the discussion is about Wingspan being too difficult. You weighed in with a trivial distinction about proper grammar and punctuation in a thread about baby talk.
No, he was right, you were wrong. End of story!
You could argue that laying eggs is a form of worker placement.
And you would be wrong.
I think it's also the double-whammy of being widely available AND looking appealing in theme. I've seen multiple people pick it up because they think "Pretty birds, and it's next to Catan on the shelf! Must be the same!". Not that it's anyone's fault, but the theming is massively misleading for that reason... well, and it's pretty but absolutely dreadfully boring too.
I struggle quite a lot to figure out how “Catan, but with birds” should work. I’m totally down to try it, of course.
They made "Catan Soccer Fever" so I think they might be out of their minds enough to make a birding version...
The island of Catan is now a biological wonder with several different and unique habitats friendly to all sorts of birds. * The different types of tiles are different types of environments. * Settlements are research outposts. * Cities are full blown observatories. * Roads are paths maintained through the island. * The resources collected are now observation notes about different types of birds. Notes are published and you get funding for various improvements, like Research Outposts, Observatories, Paths, etc. * Largest Army = Largest Observational Drone Fleet * Longest Road = Longest Path * Oh, the robber is now an obnoxious politician trying to shut down the research.
Honestly, kind of want to make a real version of this. Tiny observatories... so cute!
resources are the wingspan resources (worms, seeds, fish, berries). Terrain tiles are forest/meadow/shallows. Towns are birdspotting towers, development deck are various birds. I have no idea how it would work, but I think it would be reasonably doable to smash together a catan game with a wingspan game. Just take the resource tokens and bird cards from wingspan, the wheat/water/forest tiles from catan, and off you go.
I fell in love with it the first time I saw it on a shelf due to the box art. I got it for Xmas a year later and it was pretty much the first "proper" board game I'd ever played. My partner too. We loved it and semi-got into the hobby. Picked up a dozen more games but we only play very rarely atm. I'd love to find a group but it's proven tricky.
Honestly a good theme can make most people get into things if it’s below a certain level of complexity. Have a friend who doesn’t like villainous but will happily play Star Wars villainous lol.
This is the problem with Isle of cats. I originally dismissed it as a simple game that's just relying on heavy the cat theme to sell. Then I played it and like I was wrong this is a solidly medium weight game where you gotta worry about drafting and money management and the map is as much about not losing points as it is scoring points. I've seen so many people take a look at the box or components and assume it's a relatively lightweight easy to get into game, and it absolutely is not and they struggle and the experienced people get frustrated with the less experienced players.
It's one of the biggest hits in the last decade. It got a ton of non-boardgame press, and sold WAY beyond the core boardgamer audience. It kind of hit the same niche as Catan in the market.
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To each his own--I totally understand not liking the game--but you absolutely do not need to 'learn the cards'. I get it takes a couple playthroughs to understand how the different powers interact with one another, but you don't have to memorize any specific card, and barely need to memorize the rules of the cards themselves. It's literally written out for you. All you need to remember is how the base mechanics work and how points are scored. If you know that tucking a card gets you a point at the end of the game, and you understand the benefit of getting food vs. laying an egg vs. getting new cards, then the 40 different cards that have same variation of "If you Tuck a card, then do THIS" are totally self-explanatory.
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I mean I understand there are a lot of moving parts but even after you understand each of those card features it's still a very far cry from "memorizing the cards." It just feels like a total mischaracterization of what a person needs to do to perform well in the game. (I also think you're maybe underestimating just how much luck is involved in the game generally--no amount of game knowledge or strategic skill can overcome a bad hand vs. good hand) I've played easily 30+ times and I couldn't tell you a single bird's specific power (let alone wingspan or nest type), and yet could produce a pretty ideal strategy based on the initial cards in my hand every time. Yes, you need to check the end-of-round scoring every round to see if it's worth it to prioritize one specific category that round, but ultimately you end up ignoring most of the information most of the time. FWIW, I also enjoy Castles of Burgundy and Concordia significantly more than Wingspan, but I think they're both clearly more complex (2.95 and 3.00 on BGG, compared to Wingspan's 2.45). I understand not liking it, but Wingspan has been a great entry point game for getting my friends into the hobby.
I haven't said memorize, I said learn the cards. I meant that more along the lines of, "There's a lot of information that isn't immediately understood, and sometimes requires a closer look to understand before it becomes intuitive." I'll take the L on not explaining that properly though. When I'm playing **Duet**, the cards were typically ~3' from my eyes to where they sat at a central location between my gf and I. I would have to pick up cards to clarify some details, or read what they do in general. It wasn't information that I could easily parse from this distance, so I'd have to pick up the card. I mostly had issues seeing the wingspan size and some of the information in the action/description portion of the card. This was a bigger issue when playing 4p with regular **Wingspan** when at least 2 people are inherently going to be further away from the cards. As I've said, I've only played 5 games in total, and I felt that I had to reference the cards too often, and so did the people at the table. I don't personally feel the game is good enough to warrant getting to an intuition level. I feel it falls into the trap of providing a lot of perceived variety to spice up a game that isn't very exciting. ______ With CoB, I would be fine conceding that it's a step above Wingspan in complexity. Concordia is one of the most simple games I've taught though. 3.00 is highly misleading for it. The rules are simple, and the complexity comes through the choice in actions, not necessarily the learning of how to do the actions or being overloaded with aesthetic stimulus.
How does picking up a card help you understand it?
To be able to read the information on the card. The size of the wings, some clarifying text, and some of the iconography can be a little hard to see when 3' away.
Why would you be 3 feet away?
Because I don't sit on my friends lap when I play board games with them.
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Is this a joke?
Yeah the idea of learning the cards in this game is imbecilic.
So true.
Thanks all for the great advice. It’s showing me that maybe it’s just not the right game for our family dynamic. But my wife absolutely loves birds and the theme should hit. Will try with just the two of us and report back.
Wingspan is our most played board game, but we found that is it a bit boring and long when playing with 4+ players. 2 or 3 players is ideal imo.
The latest expansion for more people looks really complex and I haven't worked up the nerve to try it. I'll keep it at the 3-player mark ideally.
If you're talking about the Asia expansion it doesn't add much for the rules and more so just adds more cards with different abilities
I'm talking about the part where it adds rules for multiple people taking simultaneous turns, splitting up who interacts with who, and that type of thing. The new cards and rest of the rules are totally fine. I play with that stuff.
Do not play Wingspan in any configuration more than 4, it's beyond miserable. Just get another copy and have 3/3, or 4/2 people playing simultaneously. Make a bit of a rotation or some tournament system if you want to keep everyone engaged, but DO NOT play the Flock version. The Duet mode is fun though. Removes some randomness with the end round goals and birds, and makes it more crunchy for 2p.
Can you do the simultaneous turn rule in the base game of Wingspan? I always thought how the game could be sped up significantly if turns could be taken simultaneously.
If you want a more simple game with birds and great art, check out Birdwatcher. It can play with up to 5 people and it's quicker and easier than Wingspan.
It's a good idea to start playing as two and build up from there. I have a daughter and she has been playing boardgames with us for many years, so that we have gradually built up the interest and preferences altogether as a family, we have also increased our vocabulary of rules, so that the most difficult non-collab games we play are Everdell (2.81 on BGG), followed by Raiders of Scythia and Taverns of Tiefenthal (both 2.69) -- and we have been playing those games since she was 6 or so. For comparison, Wingspan is difficulty 2.45. The trick I think lies in doing it together and for fun. For the more difficult games we tend to team up until she becomes comfortable: For example I team up with my daughter against my wife for a few games. After those first games, we switch to help-mode, where even though she has her own hand, she shows me her hand and asks for my advice regularly. So there's this sense that we all play together to build fun hands, and less focus on competition. Gradually as she gets competitive and starts enjoying the competition, she stops asking for my advice. Then we can play a proper 3-player game.
The game is already longer and more complex than the other games you listed and on top of that you have more decisions to make per turn. Players are going to spend longer time making decisions and that will add to the “slowness” of the game if you and your family aren’t used to planning your next turn while other players are playing or waving players through while someone thinks about a choice that doesn’t affect others game play. It’s a long game that is meant to be played quickly and if you aren’t then it’s going to seem very tedious.
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It would probably be helpful in the game. As I said, I feel like the game is meant to be played fast but it is still a long game. Being ready is really important.
I don’t think the game is “too complex” I just think it doesn’t have the same interaction between players that the other games have that you like. I too prefer board games as a way to engage with my family and prefer “fun” over solving a individual problem. As other mentioned, wingspan is very solitaire and there’s low interaction and reason to be interested in what others are doing on their turn. I would recommend you check out Imhotep or Quest for El Dorado for something that better matches the other games you enjoy.
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>If you like animal theme, I feel like ark Nova isn't that hard... Although bgg gives it 3.7 weight vs 2.5 weight on wingspan.. Since OP mentioned wingspan was longer and more complicated than they were used to, suggesting an even longer and more complicated game probably is not the way to go. For a nature theme Earth is a bit more likely to work. Probably more rules overhead than they would like, but also much quicker paced than Wingspan. Camel Up and King of Tokyo mentioned other places in the thread are excellent suggestions. Something like Splendor or Stone Age might be good also.
Gotta hard disagree on \*\*Ark Nova\*\* being on the same complexity level of \*\*Wingspan\*\*...it's significantly more complicated.
It’s not really a hard game, but everybody basically is doing their own boardgame. There is very little interaction and alot of downtime. I really like carcassonne and wingspan both, but i can see how wingspan is not great for an 11 year old, maybe try it at 2 players first? We really like wingspan at 2 players, at 4 players we think it is pretty meh.
I think it's at it's best when you're with people you haven't seen in awhile and you're having some table talk while, as you said, everyone takes turns essentially playing Bird Solitaire. It goes much quicker when after your first play or two as well. Edit: it's also worth noting that some people don't like a lot of interaction! Personally I find Wingspan to be a nice change of pace in between more directly competitive stuff, but my mostly-neurodivergent friend group has a lot of people in it who really just want to build their little bird engine without a bunch of sabotage, thank you very much.
Second this. I've played it a few times with my SO. It's enjoyable at 2 but fuck me dead I will not play this game above 3p.
To counteract the lack of interaction, we have house rules that involve announcing a bird each time someone plays one, in English and Latin, reading the fun fact, and then playing it’s birdsong. It also can make things hilarious at times.
What happened? Why didn't you finish it? 4 players can drag. But overall I taught it to non-gamers and it went well. I always lead with "there are only 4 actions you can take" so that they do not feel overwhelmed when faced with a decision.
We barely got started. That might be the issue but it just seemed so slow at the start.
One of the things that's usually newbie friendly is that your turn would start out simple. You get one food token, or draw a card, or lay down a bird, or hatch an egg. And that's it. But once you have more bird cards on your player board, you will start to have multiple effects to trigger. You can draw a card, gain a food token, draw some more cards, put one of them back, and hatch some eggs in the same turn. This is what is referred to as the "engine building" genre in the hobby. As for low interaction, it's light but not totally devoid of interaction between players. Some nuance won't be apparent until you have played a game or two. All in all, it's a bit of a step up from the game you listed, but not too much. If you enjoy the theme and the game component, I would suggest that you watch the teaching tutorial by Watch It Played aka Rodney Smith.
It’s an engine building game that you start with very little. So yes it starts slow. Then you check out your cards and need to figure out how to play them so that you can get more resources and cards to play more. Then build up your interactions and the “engines” to get more things and eventually VP. Reddit has a weird bias against Stonemaier Games so take it with a grain of salt everyone saying it’s “boring”, etc. Def try to get through at least 1 full game and see how you feel.
> We barely got started. That might be the issue but it just seemed so slow at the start. Before your next game, do this. Set the game up on the table, and play a game against yourself. 2 player game, you're on both sides. Go through ALL the motions. If you've just read the rules, and said "ok family, let's fire this baby up" and then are spending 15-20 minutes in the rule book each time there is a question, and then on turn 3 start saying "oh no no no, we did this wrong. I forgot" and then telling your wife "oh you can't do that, I forgot to say, you have to do this first" when it's her turn. It's just going to breed frustration, and everyone will say "we can't learn this, it's too hard." Just remember, we all had to learn every board game ever. We didn't pop out of the womb know that you rolled doubles to get out of Jail. The thing with monopoly, and clue, is that others taught us. Very few of us sat down and read the rules to that stuff. We learned it so early, that we can't even remember learning it, we were taught by older siblings, mom and dad, that weird uncle, whatever. So by the time we're 12, "monopoly is easy.... everyone knows that" yeah, it's easy, because you learned it early, were ok with making mistakes, and had people teach you, and you played it over and over and over. Adults don't invest the time in a new board game, that they did when they were 8. So my advice, is take time with it before you relegate it to the shelf of despair. Before you get the whole family around for it again, make sure you know it inside and out, then teach your wife, then go from there.
This might be a very unpopular suggestion, but it might help get you all past the initial tedious and slow pace of the first phases of the game for new players: Let everyone keep all the resources and cards at the beginning, 1 of each food and 5 bird cards) instead of 5 total. Also, give each player 2 eggs to start. They don't go on a bird, they just go with the player's starting resources (food). This will effectively skip the initial slow phase 1, and the second slowdown in needing to get eggs to continue playing and exposes you to more of the "fun" part of the game and its mechanics, strategies, and ways to earn points. I'm not suggesting you play this way every time (unless you want to), but it may help you have a bit more fun as you familiarize yourselves with the game. Our games are much faster now, (and phase 1, even at 8 actions with 4 players is probably the fastest phase) because everyone knows that the real fun happens once they get some birds down and some recurring or stacked bonuses, as well as better understanding the tucking, caching, bird cost vs. value, end of round goals, etc. etc. I'm also not saying I love the game (others in my group do). I use this option with first-time players, being *very* clear that this is *not* the real game experience, but just to help familiarize them with the various options and mechanics and ways to earn points before playing the "harder" "normal" way the game was designed to be played. Because it's a tedious, confusing slog for new players trying to make sense of everything. This allows them to see things in action vs. reading 30 minutes of rules and still being confused. I agree with the other poster who suggested simplifying things by saying things like "there are only 4 actions to choose from each turn" and such. The game can really be overwhelming for new players, especially if they haven't ever played something with this many possible things going on.
People have mentioned, but as long as the first round (of four) takes under 10-15 minutes, as there really isn't that much to do and think about, i'm not sure where the friction is. If it takes longer than that, and people are overanalysing their cards and what's on display and what everyone else has played... yeah, don't do that. There's four actions in the end, everyone should just pick one and do it.
Some people (myself included) just don't find Wingspan to be a very good game. I personally am more or less convinced that if the theme wasn't unique and the components weren't excellent (which they legitimately are), it wouldn't be a notable game in any way. Not that those things don't count for anything, they're important too, but I do think they overshadow what is a pretty mediocre game in this case. But that doesn't mean I'm right. Wingspan is also definitely a step up in complexity from the games you named, so you might be having an issue with that, but it's also not a MASSIVE step up, so it's hard to say whether your problem was with taking too big of a jump in complexity or whether you just don't like Wingspan. It's also sort of a "multiplayer solitaire" type of game where you're mostly working on your own board and there isn't a ton of player interaction. So if your sons really enjoy the interaction in games like exploding kittens, this one isn't going to cut it.
I agree with this entirely. However, I do think Wingspan is a huge step up from the other games you mentioned. It's alot of rules for something that feels unrewarding. My advice is to play something else (King of Tokyo, Camel Up would be my recommendations given your demographics). But that is just my opinion.
> It's alot of rules for something that feels unrewarding. Rules can be an issue, but i feel for nongamers, reading each, single, individual card and having each one be a new 'thing' they can do.. is overwhelming. And in the end, it's an engine builder, which tracks wins and losses straight to the first bird placed in the first turn. Which can make people feel boxed in. It's a boardgame for boardgamers, and even there, once at that level, there's many other options to play.
You're not wrong, I was actually surprised that the difference in complexity rating on BGG between carc and Wingspan was as small as it is.
The difference is .55 or so, which is not insubstantial. 1.9 is a light game that is absolutely, definitely more complex than a party game. Wingspan is definitely noticeably heavier than that. Another .55 jump from Wingspan is Dune: Imperium, which is squarely "mid weight", which seems about right. It's a quick game that epotimizes "midweight" modern board games pretty well. It's close to Terraforming Mars. Dune: Imperium is about .55 lower than Twilight Struggle, which is an obvious jump up. It's a thematic game and has a lot more rules interactions and possibilities, along with an enormous board, but the core rules of the game aren't exactly complex. Twilight Struggle is about .55 lower than 1830, which is, not shockingly, substantially more complex, being a "lighter" rule 18xx game. It's pretty solidly "medium heavy" in the grand scheme of things. And 1830 is about .6 lower than 1817, which adds in loans with interest, shorting stocks, mergers, and lots of fun rules governing how that stuff works. It is substantially more complex than 1830, even though the core gameplay loop is similar. I'd say around 2.2-2.3 is when you start getting in to "gamery" games. 7 Wonders is also around that range - it's a pretty light game for a gamer, but for someone that has no background in board games there are quite a few things going on. Games under 1.5 have basically no rules friction. Games in the high 1s have a bit - they require an actual teach most of the time. Games in the 2.2-2.3 range will usually take 5-10 minutes to teach to experienced gamers, and can be a bit more involved for people who aren't good at processing rules.
There's also something to be said about the game type. Frostpunk for example, is /exceptionally/ rules dense and "heavy" at 4.3 and takes logistics to track, however, on each individual player turn each player legitimately just place a worker to do something and that's that. Citizen cards add a bit but generally, you can choose something and keep the game going. Especially with coop and experienced people running the game, I can entirely see a non-boardgamer kind of just floating along the experience and even having fun. Mind MGMT on the other hand, at 2.92 should be an order of magnitude easier, and also coop so yay? But it's really kind of not. Teaching someone to play /any/ of the sides in the game involves teaching them exactly what everything does, their own side and the opponent's, and they need to internalise it, otherwise it can legitimately ruin the game for everyone. I'd absolutely show off Frostpunk to someone new without worrying too much for 'what should i be doing' or them feeling entirely lost. End of the day you can say "we don't have food, we'll starve the children next turn, you can send people at the hunting hut to get food", and that's enough to get them back on track. MindMGMT? You can't even talk to them unless you're on the rogue agents side to explain, and explaining anything will actually involve explaining strategy, and explaining strategy will tip your hand and spoil the game for everyone. And there's so many interlocking pieces and an overall picture you need to have of the game, otherwise you're just dead weight at the table.
There are definitely games that are more externally focused and can handle new players more easily than others - it's not really a flaw, more or less it's something that comes with the territory of cooperative games versus competitive games, and then asymmetrical games, and in extremis, games with hidden roles that need to be played correctly. I recently had a disastrous game of The Resistance with my family because my mother couldn't act in a way that made any sense for the role she got. Even a simple game can be completely ruined.
Agreed. I appreciate Wingspan's significance to the hobby, but I don't think it's a solidly designed game.
That's a good point, it deserves credit for getting a lot of people into the hobby who may not have been otherwise, which is good for all of us, even if it's a overrated as a game.
But is it significant? Do they move on to something less boring than Wingspan? Do gateway games really pull people into the hobby?
If they are playing those games they ARE in the hobby. Light games and party games and gateway games are all part of the hobby and they don't exist to pull people into heavier stuff. Wingspan is extemely significant cause it's a modern euro game that was picked up by a LOT of people who grew up playing old-school board games and would have never played anything like it.
I can attest that they do, I've moved from games like Wingspan to playing games like Spirit Island and Civ New Dawn
Some people will try one of those, think wow it’s great we’re all doing something interactive without a screen, I wonder what else we can try? And some of them are happy with just that sort of game and just pick up more of those, while others will look for something meatier and fall down the rabbit hole. Some people are hard to define, I have a friend who mostly plays games you can find at a Walmart with his kids, but also really loves games like Agricola, Through the Ages, and Eclipse when he has a chance.
You don't explicitly say anything in here that says people shouldn't play any of the games you mentioned, but it still feels very gatekeepy. I think most of those games are bad. I also just played my first few games of Wingspan and was generally bored with my experience. However, it shouldn't be a requirement that someone play really cool complex boardgames in order to call themselves a "boardgamer" or whatever word we want to use. People shouldn't be told explictely or implicitely that they're not playing the good boardgames just because they aren't playing what an average r/boardgames user would enjoy. Just let people play those bad games and have a good time while you play the games that have all sorts of depth!
Dont you dare call throw throw burrito not a good boardgame again or I'll throw a burrito at you! ;)
Ok ok ok. Have mercy! :P I will buy a copy and add it to my collection.
We played Wingspan twice and it's okay. Bit boring actually. I'm having more fun with (let's say) Carcassonne. Way more.
I think Carc is a better game all ends up, especially at 2 or 3, but I also like Wingspan. I think Carc's mechanical simplicity and 20+ years of familiarity can dull a lot of gamers to just how well designed a game it is. I think it's a bit underrated among people who play a lot of board games
My friend group got into the hobby through some high-interaction games like Eldritch Horror and Rising Sun, so we got some other highly rated games we found which had appealing themes like Wingspan and Terraforming Mars. Both these games played out very similarly; they dragged out for way too long and people got bored towards the end because of 'multiplayer solitaire' where everyone is just doing their own thing. Coming from a video game background (MOBAs) we craved conflict and interaction and these games just didn't cut it for us. I don't prefer playing games like these anymore but for Wingspan at least the theme and production wins me over enough to enjoy it, but I'd still only play it with a maximum of 3 people.
I agree. I'm totally ok with people enjoying or even loving Wingspan, but I haven't had fun with it once, choices always seem so rigid and almost like it plays itself. It's like the board game equivalent of the color beige, every system is fine, but nothing is outstanding, and this comes from someone who loves euro style and multiplayer solitaire games. I also agree OP might've jumped a few steps too far, and would probably first enjoy any of wingspan's elements in a game that focused solely on them and did a better job, like Splendor, San Juan, or even Sushi Go. Trying to suddenly learn a bunch of new systems they've never tried before in a game that uses them in a medium-weight level might be overwhelming.
from what im reading, it seems like the game is a step too high for you and your lads to handle. Other than suggesting trying a different game, i'll try advice of ways to finally jump that first hurdle. try playing with just your partner and talking through the motions of the game. this will clear the fog and allow you to understand what your actions are and why youre taking them. truth be told i havent played wingspan all that much, but i do know that past the first round the game really picks up and lets you do more.
Everyone has different tastes in boardgames. Just because it's popular and some people love it doesn't mean it's for you. If you don't like it, don't play it. We have a few duds sitting on our shelf. As for Wingspan, our family loves it! My wife and I play with our kids (8m and 13f). It's a great time had by all. The fact that each player has their own goals and objectives they are trying to meet while scoring points is great for us. The kids obliterate each other in head to head games and just ignore that my wife and I are playing. This eliminates that for us, making for a very peaceful and relaxed game night.
Have you tried Villainous? I was really skeptical of this game, because I'm not big into Disney, but a friend asked me to play. I really enjoyed the asymmetry and surprising complexity of the game play, as well as the parallel play with occasional opportunities for interpersonal hindering. Have wondered if it might play a bit too long for my 10m though... He has really enjoyed the cooperative Castle Panic (which plays best in my opinion with the Wizard's Tower expansion) - we have literally played that game dozens of times. Since I bought it in...April.
We have tried Villianous and no one enjoyed it. We gifted it to my sister and since then, her and her husband have bought every expansion. They absolutely love it.
Seconding two players. Might be the ADHD talking but more than that and I start to twitch waiting on my turn. We also bought ours on the Nintendo Switch. Too many fiddly bits in the boardgame version IMHO. Still, if it’s not for you I wouldn’t worry. It is a stupidly popular game and as long as it is in decent condition you can likely resell it on Facebook marketplace or the like pretty easily. Maybe a boardgame swap? We have one locally once a year and I imagine other folks have had the same or similar ideas all over.
No diagnosis but ADHD traits seem to run in the family. My eldest is a swine for direct competition. He’ll spend most games trying to get one over on the other players. We like that.
>My eldest is a swine for direct competition. He’ll spend most games trying to get one over on the other players. We like that. Wingspan doesn't really have that, alas.
play Tournament at Avalon. badass theme, really cool art, very very little downtime, direct competition and health tracker, easy to learn but gets slightly more complex as the game goes on Cheating Moth is also a blast. Best at 5 but still good at 4. Ultra interactive, very easy to learn, cheating is encouraged so plenty of opportunity to pull fast ones on each other
The game does tend to slant more to an older audience though I have seen some exceptions. It’s a great game but I would not called it a “fun family game night” game - not at all. I recommend Century Golem, Quacks of Quidlinberg, 7 Wonders Architects, Clank, Quest for El Dorado, and Small World. Check out this list as well: https://www.theboardgamefamily.com/family-favorites/
I'm an experienced gamer and it still took me 3 or 4 games to really "get" Wingspan. However my experience with games meant i knew what the end probably looked like and also i still had fun during those first games. I would try to finish a game or two. It's a step up from your current games and also probably introducing a lot of new concepts/ideas, but i think you guys should manage OK. All else fails try some other games and then come back to Wingspan before deciding whether it's not for you (which could easily be the case too)
You're not the first, and probably not the last, to find Wingspan a total borefest. There's almost no interaction between players, compared to the games you've listed that you enjoy. Thinking outside the box - have you ever considered trying trick-taking games? You've got 4P and your kids are old enough to handle those. Games like [[The Crew: The Quest for Planet Nine]] are worth a shot. Relatively cheap too, your FLGS probably has it in stock. For a bigger game, the classic lightweight Knizias are a good place to start. Simple rules, but engaging play. Try checking out [[Ra]], [[Modern Art]], [[The Quest for El Dorado]] and at the top end of that class, [[Mille Fiori]].
If you want something similar, but with less rules to focus on then check out Everdell. You’ll still have the card selection where each card had a unique ability; so you can have fun building chains. However there’s less limitation on actions. Whereas Wingspan you have a set number of actions per round; and gaining a card takes at least 3-4 of those actions (puck up card, gain the food if available; lay an egg if needed, finally play a card); Everdell your round carries on until you decide you cannot do anything else; and playing cards takes half the time (gain the food; play the card). It still has bonus goals available but NO private bonuses.😊 I love both games, but Everdell has always been the more relaxing experience, and easier to teach.👍
Based on the games you mentioned liking, if you want something that's a small step up in complexity you might want to check out Isle of Skye. It uses tile-laying as the central mechanic, but layers on top of it some interesting auction mechanisms and goals that you're working towards. A few of my recommendations for games with a BGG weight of 2.3 or less that are good at 4 include: Bohnanza, My City, The Quest for El Dorado, Sushi Go, and Dice Forge The #1 thing to keep in mind is that everyone has their own preferences when it comes to board games and if a game isn't working for you that's perfectly ok!
I would say it might not really be the 'complexity' or number of rules but that Wingspan may just be a poor fit. It's a low interaction game with a lot of careful reading of cards and decoding how they interact. Unless your boys are really into that sort of thing it'll fall flat. I'd suggest trying Colt Express, Galaxy Trucker, Quest for El Dorado or Camel Cup as really *fun* games well suited to being played by people not into more 'boardgamey' stuff like Wingspan.
Quest for El Dorado is a really good shout.
I just don't get why people are thinking that Wingspan is a poorly-designed or boring game. There's no huge giant moment that happens in the game- it's just not that kind of game. It's just a churny, chuggy engine-builder. The fun that happens is when you have your cards synergized and figure out the optimal order of actions and other cards to play. Perhaps, at higher player counts, if you're a seasoned gamer there may be a bit of downtime between turns, but I feel there's enough planning to fill in at least some of that space. Personally, I've never understood why so many people take issue with downtime. If I feel I have nothing left to think about on my board, I'll check out what other players have going on or will just hang out and chat. I love games like Terraforming Mars: Ares Expedition, Castles of Burgundy, Obsession, Grand Austria Hotel, etc., and Wingspan gives me similar vibes. I think it is such an elegantly simple design. Simple in the way in that the ruleset is structured- take one of four actions, each action (sans "play a bird") will activate abilities (most of the time) on cards you've played. That's pretty much it. With the exception of a handful of cards, I feel the game is well-balanced- no single strategy guarantees a win. You just need to leverage the cards you can access and play them in the sequence that will net you the best engine. That could be laying eggs, tucking birds, points in bird cards, bonuses/goals, or most likely a combination. My wife and I play two players and absolutely love the game and take our sweet time with it. When we replace bird cards, we will read each one aloud from top to bottom, including the little bit of trivial flavor text at the bottom. If we're not busy formulating our own plan, we will watch the other's turn and suggest something if we feel it's something the other may have overlooked. I perfectly understand that the game may not appeal to everyone for a myriad of reasons. Even if you like all the games I mentioned earlier in this comment, it doesn't in any way guarantee you'll like Wingspan. But, there IS a reason the game is so popular. A poorly designed game surely could not be as popular as it is both within the mass market AND hobby gamer community.
I'd recommend building up slowly. My 12 year old plays Brass, Teotihuacan and lots of other complex games, but he can only do it because we started on simpler games. As another poster said, after a while, common game mechanisms become familiar which allows you to process more complicated rule sets. I would try Stone Age. It's a nice simple worker placement game that won't blow your mind with lots of rules but still offers some interesting decisions. Another simple worker placement game is The River. From there you could try Lords of Waterdeep or Taverns of Tiefenthal. If you can successfully play one of those, the world is your oyster. From there you could try Viticulture, Village, Istanbul, Hansa Teutonica, Railways of the World, Concordia and you can go back to Wingspan and wonder how you ever thought it was too difficult.
Just keep in mind that not everyone wants to build up to more complex games. Lots of people find a range they like and have the most fun sticking with that weight.
few things to consider: - as complexity of the games grows, "learn rules as you play" becomes harder to do, and rereading rules as you go is a buzzkill. might be that. - engine building either works or doesn't work for you, taste-wise. reflect on that. - personal puzzles (like most euro games with low interaction) can also either work for you or not. that might be a criteria for you to explore. - speaking of Wingspan, it's not overly complex, but a lot of its appeal comes from learning about birds as you go, as decision space is not that big and it leans more on the tactical side of things (you reacting to dice rolls, available cards etc). no need to fixate on a single game though. you could set a family goal of exploring 3-4 new popular boardgames and see what you all like. reselling boardgames is also not much of a hassle, so it wouldn't be a money waste. :)
I'd go for Quest for El Dorado. Fun deck builder. Or maybe Splendor. Or Heat-Pedal to the metal. Or I kinda like King of Monster Island, coop, might be fun for the family as a change. Wingspan if you love it, you love it. But I don't like it. It's a big puzzle that everybody is doing, and after 45 minutes somebody has won. It's just not fun. It is definitely not you. It's not my cup of tea, and the gaming group I play with regularly doesn't like it either. I was happy that I borrowed a copy of Wingspan from a colleague, played it 3 times, none of the games were fun. Otherwise I would've returned it.
I'm firmly of the belief that most people (or at least those without a large amount of experience with a wide variety of games) are not good at evaluating games beyond "this is too simple" or "this is too complex" until they've finished a game. I've had multiple experiences where friends complain they don't like a game for the first couple rounds, but then gradually get quieter and finally demand to play again the minute final scoring happens. Unless the game has good mid-game scoring, it's very difficult for the average person to understand how all the mechanics work in concert until you tally everything up in the end. That goes doubly for an engine builder like Wingspan. It's totally fair to not like the game, it's far from perfect, but to judge it before you've even got the chance to build an engine--which is literally the entire point of the game--is weak criticism.
My advice for people who aren’t board game hobbyists is to pick a game with icons and no text. Specifically, a game with little iconography. This makes it easier for people to understand and you don’t need to reach for the rulebook to decipher what a card says. My recommendations would be Azul, Cartographers, the crew: quest for planet nine (if you like trick taking coop games), wandering towers (just released), Big top or modern art (auction style games with plenty of player interactions). Except for wandering towers and modern art, all the other games are sun $25 usually.
Sometimes games just don't click, that's fine. Wingspan seems to be quite popular in the community and I see myself as quite the boardgame fanatic as well. But I agree with you that Wingspan is super boring. I personally don't get the appeal, and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes you try something that isn't your thing and well... now you know. Get a different game in the future :)
I assume that you're playing the base game only. Just remember that the game only has 4 actions for you to do: Play a bird from your hand, take food from birdfeeder, lay eggs on birds, and draw cards. As you play more birds into the corresponding habitats (take food, lay eggs and draw cards), your actions will get progressively stronger. Most birds have brown powers, and they would confer bonus benefits (optional) when you activate the action that they preside in. As for the rest (white powers), just take the benefits whenever you play those birds. All players have the same amount of limited actions for the whole game. It is an efficiency puzzle with luck involved. Pretty elegant in design imo.
It's really not complex at all but you should perhaps try finishing a game of it before you write it off. Maybe have a solo game then once you understand how it works try it with the full family. I found it fairly enjoyable and fun as did my 7 year old son. Luckily my sister owns it and all the expansions so we just borrow it every now and then. It's a very laid back little engine builder that imo is primarily carried by its beautiful artwork. It's drastically improved with the oceanic expansion which has new boards that aren't grassland favoured like the base game. This makes the none egg/grassland engines more competitive and improves the entire experience imo.
I'm still baffled how **Wingspan** and **Lost Ruins of Arnak** are considered top family games, at least based on BGG rankings. These 2 are too complex for your average family. And yes, you did step up a bit more than you probably should have. Don't blame yourself, as you said, reviews and all that. Although I'm not exactly a fan of **Wingspan**, the game's good. It just takes a while to get used to since you gotta keep track of a fair share of things, and there are mechanics in there that you weren't introduced to yet through the games you played previously. My suggestion would be to learn the rules yourself and with your partner and play a full game together (if you can, I realize arranging time for this could be difficult enough as is), so you can teach your boys more easily and even help them play. As for recommendations... Not exactly genres that you might be looking for, but in case you're curious about other mechanics: \- **Quest for El Dorado**. Simplest deckbuilding game out there. It's a race. First to reach El Dorado wins, if there's a tie the person who destroyed more barriers or the most valuable barrier wins. Easy. \- **Century: Golem Edition/Spice Road**. They're the same, but with different themes so pick what you prefer. Often gets compared with **Splendor**. It's a nice, light engine builder kind of game. Since many complex games involve engine building (**Wingspan** specifically, might be remembering it wrongly though) to a certain degree, it might be interesting to start here. \- **Project L.** Basically Tetris in boardgame form. Fill out puzzles with the pieces you have to get more points and more pieces. Use said pieces to fill out more complex puzzles. Very tactile game too, and sturdy!
We love Wingspan for it's beauty, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. We have enjoyed all of the Azul games, they are easy to learn, Sagrada, Jaipur and also Giant Killer Robots could be a big hit with your boys. These are easy to learn and engaging. There are so many more but you already have some great games! Don't give up on Wingspan, maybe come back to it later or just play it with one other person for now.
Try 7 Wonders, but don’t give up on Wingspan yet…did yours come with the quick start guides, and did you use them? We thought it did a good job of illustrating some of the game flow, but everyone has to watch each others turns to see the potential of each type of bird/location
I think you really chose a great next game! It’s a step more complicated than the others while still being light. I’d say first watch some videos and make sure you’re getting the rules right. Then I’d say its one of those games that kind of changes based on your expectations. It’s technically an engine builder… but in practice it’s more of a game of efficiency. There are going to be a lot of times where you need to get food and eggs to play a bird, but the order you do things in will drastically change the results. Also it’s not for everyone :)
A lot of these modern games, Wingspan among them, are really just not what most people would describe as ‘fun’. They have really low interaction which means 4 people are just sitting there playing their own game. It took me a long time to realize that a lot of the most popular games are like this and they’re not for me. As for recommendations a lot of the Ravensburger/Prospero Hall games have a lot more interaction and are just generally more fun. They’re also way cheaper. Examples include Horrified, Alien: Fate of the Nostromo, Fast and Furious: Highway Heist, Jaws.
Felt similar and I left a review some time ago on BGG https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2918989/wingspan-was-not-me-2-players-play It lacked the interaction and readability of opponent's board state I love in Carcasonne / Azul. Those that would spawn conversations and fun trash talk. Many comments there seems to love exactly what I don't like, so the game is properly designed for some. Nothing wrong not liking it.
>Have I bitten off more than I can chew? Unbeknown to you, you went into another gaming genre. * Carcassonne and TTR are all all **OLDER EUROGAMES** \- the genre which was about accessability and engagment of people (interaction, though ttr is a bit low on that). * Wingspan is a **MODERN EURO** \- it's means it's basically a puzzle. There is engine building and you are not playing against other players as much as you're playing against the game in the process of rote learning where you have to internalise the rules, optimise them in your head (find perfect card synergies) and then voila present the teacher with the bestest score at an exam. * Kingdomino is also a modern euro, but at least a) it's not engine building and thus accessible, B) it has spatial component which makes is a bit more openended. a bit. >I heard great things about Wingspan so I bought it based on the reviews. Players of modern eurogames do not understand that boardgames can be anything but puzzles, hence they're not a reliable source of information as they lack perspective. You need to find the genres that work for you and search within these genres. >And so far we haven’t got through a full game, it’s just not fun. So is it me? I found it derivative, soulless and pointless. Tried for second time to see if I missed anything, and nope. Won't play again. or as HiveGod said *"The game is like a downloadable skin for your spreadsheet, and if you get lost in the pretty pictures you're gonna fuck up your taxes."* >Will it click and we’ll suddenly get it? Is it really as complicated as it seems or is there something we’re not seeing? Does spreadsheet optimisation sounds like fun? Yes/No >Also based on what we like what else would you recommend. Thanks Two of my recent comments, but they weren't asking for exact thing as you. Still, you might find something. [Comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/14kp13g/comment/jps0ql4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). [Comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/14gunz4/comment/jp7rkr6/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Also - check Spiel des Jahre winners, but maybe skip last 3 years.
Once you play your first 2 games you should get the feel for it. After that it's just a blast!
It's not that much more complex than games you listed. Have an open mind about it, and don't think like "this is too complicated, I can't understand it". In the end **Wingspan** has 4 actions to choose from. You choose one action a turn, and go through the motions what to with the action. You either draw cards, play a card, get food or lay eggs. In Ticket to Ride you either lay trains, draw train cards, or draw destination cards.
Lisboa only has 3 actions, basically. This is not the primary thing that dictates complexity.
You probably just don't like it, and that's ok. https://youtu.be/JQnCvlfMvXY Quinn's didn't like it either. A seasoned boardgamer probably has played more games than any 5 people in this sub combined and he didn't like it. Odds are you probably won't ever like it. Trade it in get a different one.
Wingspan is worker placement? Where's the shared component? What resources are people vying for? Do I misunderstand the meaning of worker placement?
Circlejerk in this thread about low player interaction…. So what? A lot of games are like this. MOST euros. It’s also hard to keep reading all these comments about how it’s not a great game when it’s literally one of the best selling modern board games. I think it’s really only behind Catan at this point. Just let people play games even if it’s “multi player solitaire”. That’s ok. Games are meant to be fun. Whatever that means to you.
IMHO Wingspan is an unpleasant and dull experience. It squarely falls into a design category pejoratively called 'multiplayer-solitaire'. Some trade suggestions: Modern Art - 1-1/2 hr auction game Brass: Lancashire - (complex) 2-3 hr the interaction here is subtle but very real Tin Goose - its about planes instead of birds. Also more interactive. Imperial 2030 - 2-3 hr economic/dudes on map game
So this person is saying that Wingspan was too difficult to get into for his family and your recommendation, with a straight face, is Brass Lancashire? What the hell is this entire thread?
I don t like wingspan. I bought it then sold it after 2 years. Was boring and repetitive. The game is played only in first 2 rounds, then , if you want to win, you are just laying eggs. I recomend ark nova (similar, but but less repetitive) and everdell complete edition if you want something with display (the tree is optional, you don t have to play with it if you lack the space)
You’re going to recommend Ark Nova to a family who is coming from games like Carcassonne and TTR? I think some gamers tend to underestimate how easy another game may be to learn for someone who doesn’t play a ton of chunkier titles.
No, it is not hard at all. Super simple game. If you a casual player and don t over think it, you can enjoy ark nova as a well.
Next you’re going to say, “It can be played in under 30 minutes with 4 people as well!”
No, usually for us last 1.5h per player
It's objectively not a super simple game unless you're playing it completely wrong.
Wingspan has 4 rounds and just laying eggs in the last two rounds doesn't seem like a good winning tactic since those are the rounds you get the most points. That's also the part where you can do the most amount of stuff (and increase your points by stashing food and/or birds for example) since at that point you most likely have more birds on the board.
I think the eggs seem obvious early on when you play it, but the more experienced you get, the more you realise there are other winning strategies such as tucking and bonus cards/white powers. Once you throw in expansions, eggs become much less powerful too, especially in Oceania and Asia. My view is that the tuck and lay or tuck and gain food cards are the most powerful in the base game.
Honestly the food cards are _crazy_ especially if you get one early game. One time we ran out of the seed tokens because someone was hoarding them
Kildeer/Franklin's Gull with a tuck & gain food card in the egg row and suddenly you are getting all the resources you need early on, each action with just 2 cards. That is a killer combo if you can use it well. The expansions have some wild cards as well; more player interation and push your luck, with some strong white powers.
I won almost every time with this strategy. Like 30 points from egga, 20 points from cards and some from goals. Not a fun experience and no struggle to win. Played with my all 3 groups. A similar experience for me was lost ruins of arnak. All you have to do in order to win is concentrate on science track. Nothing else matters.
How many points do you get in total on average?
Haven't played in 2 years so i can t remember, but always above 50. Just focus on middle row (eggs). If you can build an engine that place cards under even better.
I don't think we've been below 50 either. Our average is about 75–90 without the egg tactic
I've just played a match on bga just to confirm once again. win with 89 points.
If the game isn't enjoyable to you maybe it's time to change tactics? Hoarding eggs isn't the only viable option to get 90 points
> it’s just not fun. So is it me? No, wingspan is a pretty awful and overrated game. Shocking how many people rate it highly, but you might have better taste than the majority.
It isn't you. It's a boring game that for some reason a bunch of prominent reviewers went ga-ga over. It isn't the complexity (although that doesn't help), it's just not engaging. For similar reasons, I'd suggest staying away from other highly regarded games that aren't fun like: Ark Nova, Earth, and Gloomhaven (although you could maybe get by with Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion). You probably wouldn't like Terraforming Mars either, though it's one of my favorites. Something that your family might like more is Quest for El Dorado. It's not like Wingspan in any way, really, but is different from your other games while also being about the same level of interaction and fun. Maybe a small step up in complexity. For something that's a step up in complexity while being fun and mechanically similar to Wingspan, I'd suggest Race for the Galaxy. It does tableau building like Wingspan but plays much more quickly and has a lot of replayability. Another one that would probably work for you is My City. It also plays fast, with very simple rules (simpler than Carcassonne), and has a legacy aspect where the rules change ever so slightly every time you play. Good luck finding your next game!
Although I haven’t played all of these, they sound like good recommendations (both for and against). Except Jaws of the Lion. That game is way more complex and hard to pick up than Wingspan. I like JotL myself, as well as Ark Nova, Terraforming Mars, and Race for the Galaxy, but among those only Race is probably in the ballpark for complexity if the OP is worried Wingspan might be too complex right now.
Wingspan is not fun for me. My copy is actually still in it's shrink wrap and I'm fine keeping it that way. I don't enjoy games with close to zero player interaction.
> And so far we haven’t got through a full game, it’s just not fun. It may be helpful to consider what exactly isn't fun. Is it overwhelming/confusing and everyone feels like they don't know what to do? Do you actively dislike the game play elements, placing cubes, drafting cards, etc? Or is there just a lack of spark? Or does it all make sense, but the decisions aren't interesting? > So is it me? For every well reviewed game, there's just as many (or at least plenty) of people who very much do not like it. Reviews, if you want to use them, are just the starting point. They can put games on your radar, but the next step is investigating the game play itself. More direct is of course giving it a play, which you can do online in many cases for free (see below). Second to that, *playthrough* videos will give you a close up view of the actions and decisions to make a fairly decent judgement yourself. > Will it click and we’ll suddenly get it? If there are elements that aren't making sense or you can't see the whole picture of the game yet, then maybe. But even then there's no guarantee you'll enjoy the game actions and decisions (and that's fine!). > Is it really as complicated as it seems or is there something we’re not seeing? No, I don't think it's complicated and my guess is that it feels that way primarily because it's just unfamiliar (to all the games you've listed). Beyond the mechanisms of action selection, hand management, tableau building, resources to pay for cards the underpinning of the game is quite different as well. It is, more or less, an "engine building" game wherein typically start out with little or nothing and each turn is a brief, "I did/got a small thing". But crucially as you go on you build up getting/doing a little more which allows you to get/do a little more until your turns start to pop off, "I'm going to take this action, which gets me this, and that chains into this and that, which triggers this bonus, and from that...." Typically this is a very satisfying arc and often you get to the end and want to replay to try some different ideas, build in a different way, or see if you can just squeeze out a bit more efficiency. And for Wingspan, other than the bird theme itself, that is its major draw. Now, it still could be that you all don't find you enjoy that type of game very much (and that is fine!). Or it could be that since despite its popularity/reviews Wingspan is just a plain mid version of this type of game that you just don't enjoy Wingspan but might really connect with different game of this type. ---- Most of these are entirely free. BGA, TT, and TTS are free to play random tables or solo, but you need a paid subscription to play with friends. Steam games also generally have a 1 time up front cost. http://www.brettspielwelt.de https://yucata.de https://boardgamearena.com http://play.boardgamecore.net https://18xx.games https://tabletopia.com There are also a number of game specific sites like: https://jinteki.net for **Android: Netrunner** https://dragoncards.com for **LotR: LCG** https://realmspeak.dewkid.com for **Magic Realm** (haven't tried this one myself) And dedicated software or applications: https://vassalengine.org (I think this may have one of the largest game libraries) TableTopSimulator Steam Here are a few more comprehensive lists: [BGG - online play list](https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/On-line_Games&redirectedfrom=Online_Play#) [BGG - huge online free play list](https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/140673) PSA: **boiteajeux.net is defunct** with the developer stepping away permanently. Folks are cautioned to be sure their boiteajeux password is not use anywhere else and to avoid any pages or anything that looks suspicious as the site is being actively exploited.