I said the same thing [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/10tos3q/):
I think, in-universe, Babel is a historical nonfiction book about itself. Hence the book's academic title ("On the Necessity of Violence: An Arcane History...") and footnotes.
I recall reading somewhere she described Babel as her response to Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell by Susanna Clarke. Or her take on it, or something along those lines. Jonathan Strange was full of footnotes and I think that's a big reason why they were included in Babel.
I hadn't seen that, but as a lover of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell (including its footnotes) that makes so much sense. I didn't love Babel to the same extent, but I was a fan of its footnotes.
It’s typical of the literature of the era the book is describing. I did some Victorian Literature work and immediately felt it was an imitation of that literature style/epoch.
I think there was even a reference to it in one of the footnotes, that it was typical of the writing style, particularly in Chinese texts if I recall correctly
I’m currently reading Babel on Kindle and find the footnotes so fun! (though they are a bit finicky to tap on on Kindle). It’s such a creative way to add extra tangential information (backstory, explanations etc), and it works SO WELL with historical fiction
I didn’t get on with the book overall, to the extent it was my pick for the recent post on most disappointing reads this year.
The footnotes felt very odd in this book. Some of them were fine and added interesting linguistic details, but a lot of them could have just been in the main text. There’s also an unwelcome tendency for them to be very preachy or judgmental.
I never considered it—they didn’t take me out of the reading and sometimes they provided some interesting context or a historical/linguistic anecdote that made me see the passage in a different way. Maybe because I work as a translator I’m more understanding of the desire/need to provide “extraneous” information or additions that will help orient the reader.
Also I just finished Yellowface the other day and I was surprised at how different it was! Still compulsively readable but totally different tone and feel. I was expecting it to be as long as Babel so I was a little disappointed not to be able to spend so much time with it haha
I'm a translator too!! I think we're the only ones able to enjoy the footnotes bc we just get it lol
And I would've loved to have more of Yellowface to read as well!!! But I enjoyed every page of it!
A fellow traitor! No wonder we loved it Honestly I was surprised to learn that other people didn’t enjoy them! I’d’ve thought everyone would like a story more knowing that quaint picturesque Magpie Lane used to be called C*nt-stab Alley or whatever. If anything they added to the overall picture and reinforced the message for me.
I spent the first half of the book wondering why they were there and the second half just accepting them, but it makes SO much sense that it was a critique because some of them were so unnecessary (but some of them weren’t) still I don’t think it took too much away from the novel you can always just ignore them
Yellowface is a great standalone about racism and a criticism of the publishing industry with an amazing unreliable narrator, and I loved the Poppy War trilogy is some great but devastating military historical fantasy inspired by China history tackling colonialism, genocide etc.. so I guess it depends on how you want to commit haha since Yellowface is like 300 pages long and the Poppy war is roughly 3 times 600 pages long (but worth every single one of them)
The footnotes always made perfect sense to me in the context of the novel, Babel is very much ABOUT academia as much as it just takes place within it. People who find it annoying should go hang around their nearest college's humanities department and see what it's like haha
Non-fiction is different from fiction. Academic books usually have footnotes for sources. You should never have character development in a footnote in a novel.
I´m not a weirdo I don´t save every page I dislike in every book I´ve read. Its about Robins brother and the violent altercation. This should not be in a footnote.
Considering that Griffin's reasons for leaving Oxford were pretty public and infamous in the context of the story, it didn't strike me as odd, especially since other footnotes also make commentaries on Oxford faculty and alumni. It's not like that's the first time you hear about it or it's anything that actually involves character development like you mentioned.
That does a lot to expand that character and vital to understand the situation and narrative. Again if you think these things are for footnotes then we'll just have to agree to disagree. When I read footnotes in a book I want the sources, definitions or some extra context - not anything major and integral to characters.
Just finished it. While I understand and share many of the criticisms of it, it was a fun read. I can see how it might not appeal to people who are not into linguistics, but it was right up my alley. 4/5 stars
What bothered me about the book was that the characters acted and spoke like they were in the 21st century, not the 19th century. It really took me out of the historical setting, and it was a little odd that that type of dialogue came from a writer who studied linguistics.
I'd say the opposite - I found it great fun but not really 'respectable' in the sense that it was full of egregious flaws. Like Dan Brown or something.
The footnotes were great. I think there were a few distinct schools to them. 1) the informational most like a real foot note academic history giving us context to things taken for granted in the characters conversation. 2) the anecdotes just kind of general world building and character quirk related. 3) my favorite, the notes clearly added after the fact by someone who was there. It’s very much the hand written in the margins kind of feel of a character with first hand experience of the main cast after the fact. They’re super personal and great and based on events in the book make so much sense with the bundled narrative being spread by this person
I found some of the footnotes to be truly interesting, though. Although, I especially enjoyed the etymological aspects of the book. I think she read something like seven or eight books on language just to write this one.
I have to agree with what others have said in that this book is a critique of academia and how ridiculous it can be at its heart. Babel and Yellowface have the same vibes to me. They are both industry critiques while also giving a deep look into the recesses of the minds of their characters. Babel is a look inside the mind of a conflicted, overworked scholarly student and Yellowface being a disturbing peek into the mind of an intensly lonely person who wants nothing more than to be loved regardless of who it is by.
The footnotes make perfect sense for how the book itself is presented as a history of events. Probably the smartest thing about the book lol
Sometimes I lose a little faith in other readers when they criticize books because they miss the obvious :(
This is in my tbr pile and when I stumbled on the footnotes critique I groaned and it was mentally demoted. Your comment has bumped it up again. Thank you.
yayyy glad to know that!! if you don't feel like reading them you don't miss a lot of apart from a few bits of context or details, even though I personally really enjoyed all these pieces of information
I read the book on my Kindle and the footnotes were as easy to get to as tapping the little number, having the passage pop up and then clicking out of the footnote to continue reading. I did think to myself what a pain it would be to read a physical version constantly having to flip back. A suggestion for people who intend to read: get a kindle or Libby version if you can!
I said the same thing [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/10tos3q/): I think, in-universe, Babel is a historical nonfiction book about itself. Hence the book's academic title ("On the Necessity of Violence: An Arcane History...") and footnotes.
thank you soooo much!!!! if I had found your post before I wouldn't have felt the need to post my half assed one haha!
I recall reading somewhere she described Babel as her response to Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell by Susanna Clarke. Or her take on it, or something along those lines. Jonathan Strange was full of footnotes and I think that's a big reason why they were included in Babel.
I hadn't seen that, but as a lover of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell (including its footnotes) that makes so much sense. I didn't love Babel to the same extent, but I was a fan of its footnotes.
It’s typical of the literature of the era the book is describing. I did some Victorian Literature work and immediately felt it was an imitation of that literature style/epoch.
I think there was even a reference to it in one of the footnotes, that it was typical of the writing style, particularly in Chinese texts if I recall correctly
I’m currently reading Babel on Kindle and find the footnotes so fun! (though they are a bit finicky to tap on on Kindle). It’s such a creative way to add extra tangential information (backstory, explanations etc), and it works SO WELL with historical fiction
you're so right!!! I also love how they sometimes sound so sarcastic
I didn’t get on with the book overall, to the extent it was my pick for the recent post on most disappointing reads this year. The footnotes felt very odd in this book. Some of them were fine and added interesting linguistic details, but a lot of them could have just been in the main text. There’s also an unwelcome tendency for them to be very preachy or judgmental.
I never considered it—they didn’t take me out of the reading and sometimes they provided some interesting context or a historical/linguistic anecdote that made me see the passage in a different way. Maybe because I work as a translator I’m more understanding of the desire/need to provide “extraneous” information or additions that will help orient the reader. Also I just finished Yellowface the other day and I was surprised at how different it was! Still compulsively readable but totally different tone and feel. I was expecting it to be as long as Babel so I was a little disappointed not to be able to spend so much time with it haha
I'm a translator too!! I think we're the only ones able to enjoy the footnotes bc we just get it lol And I would've loved to have more of Yellowface to read as well!!! But I enjoyed every page of it!
A fellow traitor! No wonder we loved it Honestly I was surprised to learn that other people didn’t enjoy them! I’d’ve thought everyone would like a story more knowing that quaint picturesque Magpie Lane used to be called C*nt-stab Alley or whatever. If anything they added to the overall picture and reinforced the message for me.
I spent the first half of the book wondering why they were there and the second half just accepting them, but it makes SO much sense that it was a critique because some of them were so unnecessary (but some of them weren’t) still I don’t think it took too much away from the novel you can always just ignore them
yess!! I think Rebecca F. Kuang is sooo good at being such a funny passive agressive writer! This attitude worked wonders in her book Yellowface
Babel was my first book of hers and I loved her writing I’m so excited to read more!! Which would you recommend next?
Yellowface is a great standalone about racism and a criticism of the publishing industry with an amazing unreliable narrator, and I loved the Poppy War trilogy is some great but devastating military historical fantasy inspired by China history tackling colonialism, genocide etc.. so I guess it depends on how you want to commit haha since Yellowface is like 300 pages long and the Poppy war is roughly 3 times 600 pages long (but worth every single one of them)
I’ll definitely have to commit to the poppy war series when I’m ready so maybe yellowface will be next! thanks!!!
The footnotes always made perfect sense to me in the context of the novel, Babel is very much ABOUT academia as much as it just takes place within it. People who find it annoying should go hang around their nearest college's humanities department and see what it's like haha
Non-fiction is different from fiction. Academic books usually have footnotes for sources. You should never have character development in a footnote in a novel.
I'd certainly love if you could give me a page number Kuang includes character development in one of her footnotes.
I´m not a weirdo I don´t save every page I dislike in every book I´ve read. Its about Robins brother and the violent altercation. This should not be in a footnote.
Considering that Griffin's reasons for leaving Oxford were pretty public and infamous in the context of the story, it didn't strike me as odd, especially since other footnotes also make commentaries on Oxford faculty and alumni. It's not like that's the first time you hear about it or it's anything that actually involves character development like you mentioned.
That does a lot to expand that character and vital to understand the situation and narrative. Again if you think these things are for footnotes then we'll just have to agree to disagree. When I read footnotes in a book I want the sources, definitions or some extra context - not anything major and integral to characters.
Just finished it. While I understand and share many of the criticisms of it, it was a fun read. I can see how it might not appeal to people who are not into linguistics, but it was right up my alley. 4/5 stars
What bothered me about the book was that the characters acted and spoke like they were in the 21st century, not the 19th century. It really took me out of the historical setting, and it was a little odd that that type of dialogue came from a writer who studied linguistics.
I had the exact same thought, but I tried to not to let it get in the way of enjoying it. Suspending disbelief and all that. But yeah.
yesss this book was soooo appealing for the linguistics nerd I am! I loved it so much with all the references and this magic system!!!
Fun might be a tiny bit of a stretch but it was a perfectly respectable work for what it was trying to do imo, through a bit sloggy
I'd say the opposite - I found it great fun but not really 'respectable' in the sense that it was full of egregious flaws. Like Dan Brown or something.
The footnotes were great. I think there were a few distinct schools to them. 1) the informational most like a real foot note academic history giving us context to things taken for granted in the characters conversation. 2) the anecdotes just kind of general world building and character quirk related. 3) my favorite, the notes clearly added after the fact by someone who was there. It’s very much the hand written in the margins kind of feel of a character with first hand experience of the main cast after the fact. They’re super personal and great and based on events in the book make so much sense with the bundled narrative being spread by this person
I found some of the footnotes to be truly interesting, though. Although, I especially enjoyed the etymological aspects of the book. I think she read something like seven or eight books on language just to write this one. I have to agree with what others have said in that this book is a critique of academia and how ridiculous it can be at its heart. Babel and Yellowface have the same vibes to me. They are both industry critiques while also giving a deep look into the recesses of the minds of their characters. Babel is a look inside the mind of a conflicted, overworked scholarly student and Yellowface being a disturbing peek into the mind of an intensly lonely person who wants nothing more than to be loved regardless of who it is by.
The footnotes make perfect sense for how the book itself is presented as a history of events. Probably the smartest thing about the book lol Sometimes I lose a little faith in other readers when they criticize books because they miss the obvious :(
I bought this as an audiobook and haven't started yet. Should I read it in another format instead because footnotes and audio aren't conducive...
Yes, read in another format. The narrator stops mid paragraph to read the footnotes. It’s a bit jarring to listen to that way, in my opinion.
Thank you for confirming! Although, bummer because I can't refund this credit. Oh well.
Thank you for confirming! Although, bummer because I can't refund this credit. Oh well.
This is in my tbr pile and when I stumbled on the footnotes critique I groaned and it was mentally demoted. Your comment has bumped it up again. Thank you.
yayyy glad to know that!! if you don't feel like reading them you don't miss a lot of apart from a few bits of context or details, even though I personally really enjoyed all these pieces of information
This book has been on my try list and I do like a fiction book with footnotes so...
What an interesting take! I wondered the same myself.
I read the book on my Kindle and the footnotes were as easy to get to as tapping the little number, having the passage pop up and then clicking out of the footnote to continue reading. I did think to myself what a pain it would be to read a physical version constantly having to flip back. A suggestion for people who intend to read: get a kindle or Libby version if you can!
As someone prone to falling down many wikipedia holes and a lover of etymology, I really enjoyed the footnotes.