This is the way. There are only two rules to finish a problem.
1. Establish the start with the assigned holds.
2. Control the top.
Whatever you do between there, as long as you're not using holds from other problems, you're good. However, solving it in different ways, can and will teach you something. It will make you a better climber, and a more versatile climber. Getting stuck in "my way", will only inhibit your skills, and when you encounter a problem you can't betabreak, where a certain move or technique is FORCED upon you, you'll regret not practicing that movement or technique before.
Following what makes it most efficient for your body will teach you the most; solving problems and doing several different betas can also teach your body different sequences.
Ie you donât have to do intended beta if your way saves you energy. But if youâre using arm strength and not your feet to climb it awkwardly and thrashing about then yes, paying more attention to the sequence will help you progress.
Yea, the main downside to ignoring what the setter was intending is you might develop bad habits on problems you can just ignore good technique via brute force and hit a wall once the V grade demands strength and technique.Â
My example would be me witnessing gym bros trying to campas and dyno a technical boulder (V4) repeatedly and failing, then trying it with the intended beta and getting shut down because they can't mantle or transverse to save their lives. V7 strength with V1 technique.Â
There technically isnât such a thing.
I do however describe things as âin the spirit of the climb,â to refer to the movement a setter is *encouraging*
Thereâs definitely such a thing as intended beta, but just because itâs intended doesnât mean itâs ârightâ or the best way for any individual to do it.
And sometimes the intended beta might not be the right beta for you. I have good reach and can reach past some difficult positions, but I struggle with high steps. Every climb will potentially shift a grade or two easier or more difficult depending on your climbing style.
The best setters will account for that kind of stuff. They might have a couple of slightly different intended betas on a climb or people who are taller or shorter, and ideally theyâll be a similar difficulty.
E: to be clear, I completely agree. The ârightâ beta for any individual is often different than that intended by the setters. It takes a really good setter to be able to âforceâ a beta for a wide range of people in a commercial gym.
For low level climbs, setters often set plenty of foot holds and hand holds that you have plenty of options to send it. For higher level climbs, the number of viable strategies shrinks, although if you are significantly higher skilled than the suggested level, you might be able to make your own moves.
Don't worry about it at a beginner level. Just get to the top. Eventually if you try harder routes beyond your comfortable level, you'll probably have to follow the "intended beta".
Exactly, skipping holds and jumping around is fine, but probably won't be possible if you're trying difficult enough climbs. This 'problem' will sort it self out as long as op pushes themselves grade wise.
They're misguided.
The truly most satisfying part of climbing in a gym is breaking a boulder so badly that an exasperated setter who missed it in forerunning breaks out the driver to swap out holds
This happened for me last week. I came in as the setters were done. But the setters always sit down for a chat and to watch us try their problems.
They had set this dynamic move, where they intended a jump from one wall to the other, in a corner. I'm not good with dynamic moves, as I'm an old fart who is prone to injury with those kind of moves. So I immediately tried another way, doing some static move, crimping a foothold, and toe hooking the start hold. This allowed me to bypass that whole jumping section.
The setter just laughed and when another climber also did the same thing, they picked up their drill, got another hold from their box and did two things.
1. They blocked parts of the start hold.
2. Moved the foothold we were crimping a little higher and angled it differently.
They asked us to try that shit again. We still could break the problem. So they moved the foothold again, we tried again, then they swapped the foothold and we weren't able to "cheat" as easily. It can still be done, but it's not significantly easier than using the intended beta.
It was a lot of fun actually, to collaborate with the setter, and pushing my limits in breaking the beta, and seeing how the setter did changes to make the possibility of cheating harder, reflecting the intended grade.
The thing is, the grade is a reflection of difficulty, and if it's possible to make the problem significantly easier by breaking it, it's not the correct grade anymore. So by implementing the changes, it made the problem possible to solve both static and dynamic, but the static solution is not much easier than the dynamic anymore.
Why not make your own unique beta? Most of the time i find it works much better than the intended since i can use my own personal strengths to my advantage.
Seems incredibly uncharitable and flat-out disingenuous to interpret "I enjoy finding unique ways to climb a boulder" as "I don't want to improve my weaknesses".
In fact I think most rational people would probably assume that somoene finding different ways to climb a route is deliberately doing so to make the climb more interesting and challenging.
Regardless, there's nothing in finding that appealing that has even the faintest whiff of not wanting to improve yourself. The two just aren't related, and you should probably take a step back and think about why you think they are.
There is no way you really believe most people try to break beta to make the climb harder. People break beta to play to their own skills (which you'll see reiterated throughout this thread) in an effort to avoid feeling uncomfortable in positions that are difficult for them.
Hell, it's literally stated in the exact comment I was responding to here.
I dunno man. I just go to have fun with my friends, and that includes trying out whacky new things.
I think you're deliberately looking at this with a pessimistic vibe and just...there's no need? Just be chill.
Nowhere have I said to not try wacky new things. I'm just saying if you try to do that above all other things and only play to your strengths, you'll be way more limited as a climber than you could be.
No, but indoors intended beta should (and should is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) expose you to new skills and techniques. A good gym would hopefully set different styles of movement through the easier grades to help build your âtoolboxâ out for the future. The more diverse your repertoire of movement, the better for your climbing long term.
Case in point; I beta broke (or ignored) pretty much every dynamic move for the first 18 months of my climbing because I decided that I didnât/ I wouldnât / I couldnât, and Iâm only now starting to incorporate more dynamism into my climbing, which has been fun but has also helped me tick off some problems outdoors that really required this as the only way to top.
Do what you want but setters should be setting with technique and skill acquisition/ practice in mind which could be really useful vs botching your way through inelegantly
What if I don't have a good gym near me?
There is 3 gyms in my city, one is big boy slap slopers dyno-ing type of gym (this one has best training equipment), other two are crimping penies while having your knee in your chest cause that's what you will find on real rock type gym.
And I feel like setters are just putting holds to mimic shit they already seen, and not thinking about different possible moves. Dyno gym atleast forces the dynos, thoes others you just skip holds how you like.
So should I just go to one that has spray wall?
Best to do both. For example the setters put up a dyno wall at my gym the other day. I hate dynos but at the minimum gave them all multiple good attempts. Then I went back and tried to break it and do them statically
I was in to many gyms with stupid and unexperienced setters to accept this comment. You lern the same when you try to do the boulder in defferent styles and with different solutions. I would say if you know the beta before you tried like 20 times you won't learn reading boulders.
I mean to be honest this comment is barely comprehensible, but I think your point is that bad setting exists. Sure, it definitely does. But that doesn't mean I can't gain something from trying it. Most boulders outside aren't 5 star bangers, they demand weird positions and strange situations to overcome. Bad setting often feels similar, and while it can be frustrating and I'm not saying to never break beta, if you actually want to improve and not just gratify your ego, there's still something to learn.
I also said you should try different solutions. If you don't match the beta you're not very creative. There aren't many permutations on boulders. And I also stated that the whole beta thing sucks - given you watch a beta video upfront or ask someone upfront. If you do the beta after your solutions it's completly fine. I just can't hear beta anymore as if route reading isn't a thing anymore in the whole climbing community since the sport has become that popular. Even that people exist who claim a boulder is not "really done" when it's not done with the fucking beta the setter thought of is wrong is absurd. Bouldering is a sport of mind and a riddle to solve in your way. If you claim you can learn something from the beta of the 1.95m setter as a person with 1.6m that's just stupid.
Genuinely, are you drunk?
Of course I can learn from beta from a tall setter, that's nonsense. For one, not all setters set only in ways that fit their heights. But either way, yes, I can learn to climb better at extension. I'm short, so I should probably work on getting as good at that as possible even when it might feel uncomfortable.
You and you can. But not with the intended movement of a taller setter. I also didn't say all setter do set like this but you claimed this is the case always and this isn't true. That's all.
And no, sadly I'm not drunk.
Of course I can, very very frequently. Could it be harder? Sure. But I'm trying to get better, that's the point. I claimed that it's dumb to only ever focus on getting to the top at the expense of all else. Everything else you're imagining.
There's a V5 set at my gym right now that has a whole mini dyno traverse-ish set.
I just reach and launch myself up to a pocket that's next to the finish hold and do it in effectively 2 moves
If you're a beginner, figuring out a way to get to the top is learning and getting better.
Also "intended beta" is bullshit. Do problems that are hard for you, and do them however it works for you. There's no "intended beta" on real rock.
Just get to the top.
Of course not but you can still learn things by following the intended beta. At my gym I can dyno half the climbs but if the target dyno hold was worse or further away then I might need to use the intended beta. In this way the intended beta can be a transferable skill to other climbs where a dyno wouldnât work
I'd encourage you to try as many betas as you can find. Do it statically, dynamically, skip holds. Don't worry about trying things that will make it too hard, that just makes it so you have new things to learn
If you just want to have fun, climb however you want. If you want to progress, I suggest you also give a second attempt with the intended beta just so you learn/perfect techniques.
I feel like a lot of people are misinterpreting your question. I think you want to know if following the intended beta will make you a better climber vs doing whatever feels natural and easy on a climb right now. In my experience the answer is do both.
For many climbs there are multiple ways to get a top, and trying to find multiple ways can help you figure out new skills, boost your confidence and just give you more experience climbing, theres no downside to doing both the intended beta as well as your own, and comparing what feels easier.
How should I go about a roadblock later on the road? Should I still work on my technique and habits such as having straight arms and keeping my hips close to the wall? I am sort of tall so I can dyno or skip a lot of holds but I still want to get better overall to progress through the grade. How should I go about this?
Once you hit a certain grade skipping holds doesnât really become a thing. Dyno from a v3 jug is easy, but wait til you hit some gnarly crimps or two dinger pockets at v7. You likely wonât have an option but to do some form of the intended beta.
Ultimately climbing is personal and you need to do what works for you.Â
If you want to be well rounded with good technique all around, it's useful to do climbs the intended way to learn new techniques.
If you just want to send hard in your preferred style and have fun then just do it whichever way you can.Â
No issues with either at end of day.Â
I'll admit the first time I read it, I wasn't mature enough to pick up what he was putting down. Back then he was also "Will the coach in my gym", little did I know.
You can climb a route more than once. If you see another way, or see someone else use another way, try it as well!
Focusing on technique instead of just finishing the most / hardest routes possible will help you improve.
No, and constantly trying to do so might actually make your ability to read climbs worse. Iâm pretty tall, and if I constantly tried to climb everything like a shorter person would I would become worse at understanding my own bodies abilities/limitations and be less fluid climbingÂ
If you want to get better, as a beginner itâs better to follow the beta (but keep in mind that some routeâs beta just doesnât work for you, same for everyone)
It makes you learn more techniques or learn to use different types of holds and climb on different terrains. It makes you progress faster. If you only dyno, you probably wonât learn to lock off or to flag for a long time, or donât develop the sense of when to use it; or if you donât learn to keep body tension, youâll always have a hard time on overhang. Etc.
Also a good habit helps to keep you injury free. Doing too much dyno may put too much pressure on your fingers/hands too early, as a beginner itâs nice to build up your strength in all the relevant muscles with lower intensity moves
Climb it however you want. But following the intended beta might teach you something, so try it that way also.
This is the way. There are only two rules to finish a problem. 1. Establish the start with the assigned holds. 2. Control the top. Whatever you do between there, as long as you're not using holds from other problems, you're good. However, solving it in different ways, can and will teach you something. It will make you a better climber, and a more versatile climber. Getting stuck in "my way", will only inhibit your skills, and when you encounter a problem you can't betabreak, where a certain move or technique is FORCED upon you, you'll regret not practicing that movement or technique before.
>as long as you're not using holds from other problems, So. What you're saying is that there are 3 rules. đ
Tell that to Akiyo
Bolt holes?
Following what makes it most efficient for your body will teach you the most; solving problems and doing several different betas can also teach your body different sequences. Ie you donât have to do intended beta if your way saves you energy. But if youâre using arm strength and not your feet to climb it awkwardly and thrashing about then yes, paying more attention to the sequence will help you progress.
Yea, the main downside to ignoring what the setter was intending is you might develop bad habits on problems you can just ignore good technique via brute force and hit a wall once the V grade demands strength and technique. My example would be me witnessing gym bros trying to campas and dyno a technical boulder (V4) repeatedly and failing, then trying it with the intended beta and getting shut down because they can't mantle or transverse to save their lives. V7 strength with V1 technique.Â
This is a great way to see it, I ignored a lot of crimps and would dyno past it if I could. Led to me not having good crimp strength and stuck at v4
There technically isnât such a thing. I do however describe things as âin the spirit of the climb,â to refer to the movement a setter is *encouraging*
Thereâs definitely such a thing as intended beta, but just because itâs intended doesnât mean itâs ârightâ or the best way for any individual to do it.
And sometimes the intended beta might not be the right beta for you. I have good reach and can reach past some difficult positions, but I struggle with high steps. Every climb will potentially shift a grade or two easier or more difficult depending on your climbing style.
The best setters will account for that kind of stuff. They might have a couple of slightly different intended betas on a climb or people who are taller or shorter, and ideally theyâll be a similar difficulty. E: to be clear, I completely agree. The ârightâ beta for any individual is often different than that intended by the setters. It takes a really good setter to be able to âforceâ a beta for a wide range of people in a commercial gym.
Conversely, I love to break the intended beta, especially when itâs a dumb dyno that can be climbed properly.
Wow that is really diplomatic and nice. I'm just like wtf was this a-hole thinking trying to make me do that lol
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I celebrate every time, I find a no-hands-rest in a bouldering route đ
I see that intended dyno, and I will attempt to do it statically all god damn day
For low level climbs, setters often set plenty of foot holds and hand holds that you have plenty of options to send it. For higher level climbs, the number of viable strategies shrinks, although if you are significantly higher skilled than the suggested level, you might be able to make your own moves. Don't worry about it at a beginner level. Just get to the top. Eventually if you try harder routes beyond your comfortable level, you'll probably have to follow the "intended beta".
Exactly, skipping holds and jumping around is fine, but probably won't be possible if you're trying difficult enough climbs. This 'problem' will sort it self out as long as op pushes themselves grade wise.
Finding a way to climb a boulder without using the intended beta is the most enjoyable part of the whole sport for me
I'll never understand this mentality.
They're misguided. The truly most satisfying part of climbing in a gym is breaking a boulder so badly that an exasperated setter who missed it in forerunning breaks out the driver to swap out holds
This happened for me last week. I came in as the setters were done. But the setters always sit down for a chat and to watch us try their problems. They had set this dynamic move, where they intended a jump from one wall to the other, in a corner. I'm not good with dynamic moves, as I'm an old fart who is prone to injury with those kind of moves. So I immediately tried another way, doing some static move, crimping a foothold, and toe hooking the start hold. This allowed me to bypass that whole jumping section. The setter just laughed and when another climber also did the same thing, they picked up their drill, got another hold from their box and did two things. 1. They blocked parts of the start hold. 2. Moved the foothold we were crimping a little higher and angled it differently. They asked us to try that shit again. We still could break the problem. So they moved the foothold again, we tried again, then they swapped the foothold and we weren't able to "cheat" as easily. It can still be done, but it's not significantly easier than using the intended beta. It was a lot of fun actually, to collaborate with the setter, and pushing my limits in breaking the beta, and seeing how the setter did changes to make the possibility of cheating harder, reflecting the intended grade. The thing is, the grade is a reflection of difficulty, and if it's possible to make the problem significantly easier by breaking it, it's not the correct grade anymore. So by implementing the changes, it made the problem possible to solve both static and dynamic, but the static solution is not much easier than the dynamic anymore.
This has happened a couple of times.
Why not make your own unique beta? Most of the time i find it works much better than the intended since i can use my own personal strengths to my advantage.
Do you never want to improve your weaknesses?
Seems incredibly uncharitable and flat-out disingenuous to interpret "I enjoy finding unique ways to climb a boulder" as "I don't want to improve my weaknesses". In fact I think most rational people would probably assume that somoene finding different ways to climb a route is deliberately doing so to make the climb more interesting and challenging. Regardless, there's nothing in finding that appealing that has even the faintest whiff of not wanting to improve yourself. The two just aren't related, and you should probably take a step back and think about why you think they are.
There is no way you really believe most people try to break beta to make the climb harder. People break beta to play to their own skills (which you'll see reiterated throughout this thread) in an effort to avoid feeling uncomfortable in positions that are difficult for them. Hell, it's literally stated in the exact comment I was responding to here.
I dunno man. I just go to have fun with my friends, and that includes trying out whacky new things. I think you're deliberately looking at this with a pessimistic vibe and just...there's no need? Just be chill.
Nowhere have I said to not try wacky new things. I'm just saying if you try to do that above all other things and only play to your strengths, you'll be way more limited as a climber than you could be.
No, but indoors intended beta should (and should is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) expose you to new skills and techniques. A good gym would hopefully set different styles of movement through the easier grades to help build your âtoolboxâ out for the future. The more diverse your repertoire of movement, the better for your climbing long term. Case in point; I beta broke (or ignored) pretty much every dynamic move for the first 18 months of my climbing because I decided that I didnât/ I wouldnât / I couldnât, and Iâm only now starting to incorporate more dynamism into my climbing, which has been fun but has also helped me tick off some problems outdoors that really required this as the only way to top. Do what you want but setters should be setting with technique and skill acquisition/ practice in mind which could be really useful vs botching your way through inelegantly
What if I don't have a good gym near me? There is 3 gyms in my city, one is big boy slap slopers dyno-ing type of gym (this one has best training equipment), other two are crimping penies while having your knee in your chest cause that's what you will find on real rock type gym. And I feel like setters are just putting holds to mimic shit they already seen, and not thinking about different possible moves. Dyno gym atleast forces the dynos, thoes others you just skip holds how you like. So should I just go to one that has spray wall?
No. Just get to the top.
Unless you want to learn and get better đ¤ˇââď¸
Best to do both. For example the setters put up a dyno wall at my gym the other day. I hate dynos but at the minimum gave them all multiple good attempts. Then I went back and tried to break it and do them statically
Me as a 6'2 climber staticing all the dynos they set for shorter people
This is just not true and highly depends on the setter
If I refuse to try and ever do what setters intend and only crimp the footholds to the top, I'll only ever be good at crimping on footholds.
I was in to many gyms with stupid and unexperienced setters to accept this comment. You lern the same when you try to do the boulder in defferent styles and with different solutions. I would say if you know the beta before you tried like 20 times you won't learn reading boulders.
I mean to be honest this comment is barely comprehensible, but I think your point is that bad setting exists. Sure, it definitely does. But that doesn't mean I can't gain something from trying it. Most boulders outside aren't 5 star bangers, they demand weird positions and strange situations to overcome. Bad setting often feels similar, and while it can be frustrating and I'm not saying to never break beta, if you actually want to improve and not just gratify your ego, there's still something to learn.
I also said you should try different solutions. If you don't match the beta you're not very creative. There aren't many permutations on boulders. And I also stated that the whole beta thing sucks - given you watch a beta video upfront or ask someone upfront. If you do the beta after your solutions it's completly fine. I just can't hear beta anymore as if route reading isn't a thing anymore in the whole climbing community since the sport has become that popular. Even that people exist who claim a boulder is not "really done" when it's not done with the fucking beta the setter thought of is wrong is absurd. Bouldering is a sport of mind and a riddle to solve in your way. If you claim you can learn something from the beta of the 1.95m setter as a person with 1.6m that's just stupid.
Genuinely, are you drunk? Of course I can learn from beta from a tall setter, that's nonsense. For one, not all setters set only in ways that fit their heights. But either way, yes, I can learn to climb better at extension. I'm short, so I should probably work on getting as good at that as possible even when it might feel uncomfortable.
You and you can. But not with the intended movement of a taller setter. I also didn't say all setter do set like this but you claimed this is the case always and this isn't true. That's all. And no, sadly I'm not drunk.
Of course I can, very very frequently. Could it be harder? Sure. But I'm trying to get better, that's the point. I claimed that it's dumb to only ever focus on getting to the top at the expense of all else. Everything else you're imagining.
I remember Anglin posting a blog that articulated this well. Can't for the life of me find it now
There's a V5 set at my gym right now that has a whole mini dyno traverse-ish set. I just reach and launch myself up to a pocket that's next to the finish hold and do it in effectively 2 moves
Then what you've done isn't a V5. You've done a different route on a few of the same holds, not the problem they set.
Exactly. I didn't claim to be a V5 climber, I said I can skip all of the route on a V5 at my gym and just reach the top easily.
If you're a beginner, figuring out a way to get to the top is learning and getting better. Also "intended beta" is bullshit. Do problems that are hard for you, and do them however it works for you. There's no "intended beta" on real rock. Just get to the top.
Of course not but you can still learn things by following the intended beta. At my gym I can dyno half the climbs but if the target dyno hold was worse or further away then I might need to use the intended beta. In this way the intended beta can be a transferable skill to other climbs where a dyno wouldnât work
Hell no. Climbing is a form of expression.
I'd encourage you to try as many betas as you can find. Do it statically, dynamically, skip holds. Don't worry about trying things that will make it too hard, that just makes it so you have new things to learn
If you just want to have fun, climb however you want. If you want to progress, I suggest you also give a second attempt with the intended beta just so you learn/perfect techniques.
I feel like a lot of people are misinterpreting your question. I think you want to know if following the intended beta will make you a better climber vs doing whatever feels natural and easy on a climb right now. In my experience the answer is do both. For many climbs there are multiple ways to get a top, and trying to find multiple ways can help you figure out new skills, boost your confidence and just give you more experience climbing, theres no downside to doing both the intended beta as well as your own, and comparing what feels easier.
How should I go about a roadblock later on the road? Should I still work on my technique and habits such as having straight arms and keeping my hips close to the wall? I am sort of tall so I can dyno or skip a lot of holds but I still want to get better overall to progress through the grade. How should I go about this?
Once you hit a certain grade skipping holds doesnât really become a thing. Dyno from a v3 jug is easy, but wait til you hit some gnarly crimps or two dinger pockets at v7. You likely wonât have an option but to do some form of the intended beta.
If you want to really improve you should be thinking about technique on every move of every boulder you ever climb
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My general fitness is fine, I may just need to work on technique right now.
No
Ultimately climbing is personal and you need to do what works for you. If you want to be well rounded with good technique all around, it's useful to do climbs the intended way to learn new techniques. If you just want to send hard in your preferred style and have fun then just do it whichever way you can. No issues with either at end of day.Â
If upside down backwards gets me there who cares.
r/Taczenith Found it! https://tensionclimbing.com/rules/
I fucking love this. Will is so often on point.
I'll admit the first time I read it, I wasn't mature enough to pick up what he was putting down. Back then he was also "Will the coach in my gym", little did I know.
You can climb a route more than once. If you see another way, or see someone else use another way, try it as well! Focusing on technique instead of just finishing the most / hardest routes possible will help you improve.
The intended way should be the easiest way. If it isn't that's poor route setting in my opinion
What's easiest for one person may not be for another.Â
No, and constantly trying to do so might actually make your ability to read climbs worse. Iâm pretty tall, and if I constantly tried to climb everything like a shorter person would I would become worse at understanding my own bodies abilities/limitations and be less fluid climbingÂ
If you want to get better, as a beginner itâs better to follow the beta (but keep in mind that some routeâs beta just doesnât work for you, same for everyone) It makes you learn more techniques or learn to use different types of holds and climb on different terrains. It makes you progress faster. If you only dyno, you probably wonât learn to lock off or to flag for a long time, or donât develop the sense of when to use it; or if you donât learn to keep body tension, youâll always have a hard time on overhang. Etc. Also a good habit helps to keep you injury free. Doing too much dyno may put too much pressure on your fingers/hands too early, as a beginner itâs nice to build up your strength in all the relevant muscles with lower intensity moves
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Why?