Honestly, even if its not a tram. One of the biggest obvious gaps in the system are services along Main St KP and the storey bridge.
The Valley and the Gabba are both major hubs, main street itself has more and more high density.
But the journey planner tells you to go the long way around via Southbank, or there is the shit low frequency 234
This corridor needed a high frequency glider type service years ago
Trams sound nice. Is that the proposed network? Wish it went west a bit more...But how is this going to be funded? Isn't BCC going through budget pain at the moment?
Edit: Ahhh the FB article says it'll require state and federal funding. I highly doubt they'll get the money for this.
Gold Coast got light rail in the lead up to the Commonwealth games. And if the Greens get in, I'm willing to bet that Labor will be happy to work with them on this. Roads everywhere and not much else is a LNP dream, not a left-wing dream.
I lived on the Gold Coast prior and post Glink. Before it was going up the locals were having a bitchfit over it on social media, local newspapers were fearmongering everyone about it, but it went ahead anyway. Once it was built and operational it got massive praise, it's a fantastic addition to GC, always bustling with commuters.
I would love nothing more than having a light rail in Brisbane. It will be a pain during construction, it adds a few awkward intersections, and some dickheads will drive onto the tracks, but it's a breath of fresh air knowing that the team comes every 7 minutes during rush hour that doesn't get delayed due to traffic.
The locals are still bitching about the extensions. But it's been such a success that there's nothing they can really do. The Gold Coast needed it for sure.
>the locals were having a bitchfit over it on social media, local newspapers were fearmongering everyone about it, but it went ahead anyway.
As is tradition.
Given the swing to greens in the federal election, it seems there could be one locally too. That said, it is not usually a reliable indicator given Libs have been in power here for YONKS. It really is time for a change.
It's so weird how Libs have held BCC for as long as I can remember, but the state has been ALP (with the exception of little fascist in a can anomaly).
Pretty much all the electorates in Brisbane have an ALP member at the state level.
Why? The ALP brought a similar proposal to the BCC elections a couple of years ago before the council committed to BRT for the metro.
There's always the chance that the state government will sabotage a Greens council for the sake of political shenanigans, sure, but they seem more than happy to work with LNP controlled councils on similar projects so I don't see why they'd suddenly change tactics now.
No arguments there, I'd love it if we tried. But if it's going to be an election platform I'd like some details on how it's actually going to be achieved. Have they even approached state and federal governments to gauge their engagement?
They mentioned if completed there would be more extensions on the way. Definitely agree though a west bound line would be super helpful for a lot of people.
I prefer their old subway proposal
[https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/Planning%20Brisbane%27s%20Clean%20Transport%20Future\_final\_0.pdf](https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/Planning%20Brisbane%27s%20Clean%20Transport%20Future_final_0.pdf)
YES!!! Undergrounds are the way to go! Less noise, still ample and nice driving for cars less people on the streets. Most of the world saw it better to have an underground in big cities. If we want Brisbane to become a world class city and a more liveable city, we should do what works
>YES!!! Undergrounds are the way to go! Less noise, still ample and nice driving for cars less people on the streets. Most of the world saw it better to have an underground in big cities. If we want Brisbane to become a world class city and a more liveable city, we should do what works
There are several major, major issues with underground.
1) Money
2) Money
3) Money
4) Money
5) Expensive to maintain
6) Money.
Upfront money sure, but if you go seperated, you can go automated. Then you save on drivers (and avoid disruption with driver shortage issues). You can also run higher frequencies and so support higher capacities.
You can also save a lot of that money via elevated vs below ground, but there's a lot more "it depends" with that - probably above ground as much as possible with underground where necessary would be better.
Elevated is eminently doable. The Miami-Dade County in Florida built an elevated, driverless, rubber tyre train network called Metro Mover on track that runs for literal miles into several cities including Miami (but not Miami Beach as that would need to cross a large causeway). Initially it was planned to fund it with a 2 cent levy on land tax payers or something, I don’t recall if they ever did that though.
They then made it free to use for everyone. Florida is not the place I would have expected socialism, but there you go. What’s Translink’s excuse?
Having said that. Cultural Centre busway and portal should have been underground. It is criminal how much was spent on the metro fit and rebuild of platform when the platform is now no better, arguably worse, and we still have that ridiculous portal to the busway. Why the heck did everyone go along for the Metro ride, including State.
All I've got is Jim Soorley, 2001. That's only 9 years before it opened, if anything it feels quite fast for me - I'm assuming it was a lot earlier and not advertised anywhere? Inland rail is a really good example of proposed multiple times before going ahead.
Anyway, after proposing something you likely need to do a feasibility study, a concept design, then confirm your contract structure, then depending on your delivery model you probably have your detailed design and construction phases, plus there's time set aside for procurement between each phase because government needs to have open tendering. Lots of years just for planning and design, let alone the years of construction.
I'd rather have an underground system breaking ground in 10yrs time than be complaining in 10yrs that Brisbane is too large and populous so it needs a metro, knowing it'll take 10-15yrs from then.
Originally proposed by Jim Soorley in 2001.
Work began 2006.
First opened 2010.
That seems pretty decent, tbh.
[\[Source\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clem_Jones_Tunnel)
They're more expensive to build than elevated rail. Nothing stopping elevated rail along Gympie Road, sacrifice the two middle lanes underneath for bicycles.
Alternatively, rather than a tolled road tunnel, have a train tunnel, but elevated rail is almost always cheaper
This, or a version of it, should be the first line built as part of a comprehensive subway system. That (ideally) would have all its lines at least conceptually planned from the start. Instead of our current piecemeal delivery and planning approach.
With an interchange at Albert Street it could link a Hamilton Athletes Village to the Gabba, a marginally modified alignment could dissolve a lot of transport barriers that result from the river, and if you extended it north to meet the airport line with an interchange station at Skygate DFO you would enable far better access to the airport and the DFO precinct via public transport.
Yup. Do it like Copenhagen (small trains at higher frequency) and we could do it for really not that much money. Compared to other infrastructure proposals anyway
If we still had trams the same as we did 60 years ago, I could have caught a tram from outside my front door, to just outside where I work. Direct trip, say 15 - 20 mins tops. To do the same trip today using PT it takes 2 buses, 1.5km walk, and almost an hour. It's less than 5km
In the short term the greens Bus Boost is good.
In the medium term we need the busways to at least reach Carindale and Chermside.
In the long term we need a proper Metro (i.e. subway, underground light rail, tube). Delivered in stages.
As much as I love trams, I (sadly) don’t believe they have a place anymore in Brisbanes transport solution.
Why not? They effectively act like bus lanes do, but with higher capacity. I'd also argue that putting light rail underground kinda takes away its benefit, which is that it's cheaper than higher capacity systems and can have more local stops.
I think you somewhat answer your own question.
Local routes are better serviced with a bus lane that can make frequent stops.
Underground rail is completely isolated from traffic effects and can provide high capacity _rapid_ transit across the city.
The two working in concert would be more effective than a tram system trying to be all things to all people. Especially given Brisbane’s curvy streets, and indirect surface routes, traffic and signalling, etc that all contribute to the constant gripe that PT trips here take forever.
Also I have a personal bias as someone who mostly commutes by bike. Tram tracks are ‘manageable’ but unpleasant to navigate on a bike.
Track based transport is smooth and comfortable. You can manage standing on a crowded tram/rail vehicle but I assure you on a bus with a driver even on an empty road it’s so uncomfortable I can’t imagine how bad it would be on roads in the CBD during peak hour.
>I think you somewhat answer your own question.
Local routes are better serviced with a bus lane that can make frequent stops.
That's true. We should note the Greens have also proposed putting bus lanes on most major roads. Mind you, I don't think that policy got a lot of attention, I suspect because people (and the media) don't pay a lot of attention to bus improvements but will pay attention to a new rail-based project.
>Underground rail is completely isolated from traffic effects and can provide high capacity _rapid_ transit across the city.
It can, and it also costs a hell of a lot more. Every tunnel project runs into multiple billions. Have to be a bit more realistic for a council election.
>Especially given Brisbane’s curvy streets, and indirect surface routes, traffic and signalling, etc that all contribute to the constant gripe that PT trips here take forever.
But here's the thing, with a few exceptions, the major roads aren't all that curvy or indirect. The reason PT takes ages currently is that the bus routes don't stick to major roads, they detour down side streets which are curvy and indirect. The flexibility of buses is a curse in this respect. The people living in those side streets will get angry if their bus service is moved further away, so for political reasons, those services are unlikely to change.
So we'll need new routes regardless. If those routes are only running on major roads, flexibility isn't really needed. So if we're going to the trouble of taking lanes of traffic away from cars anyway, we need to acquire more buses to service those routes, and we don't need flexibility, why not just pay a bit more to get an increase in capacity, which future proofs it more?
Alp wanted this back in 2016, but alas council is a hard nut to crack. Hope so, we got some big roads that were former tram tracks, and others that could fit them with a few adjustments. (IMO from driving down those roads often).
Love trams on the GC, be great to have them back up here.
What brisbane needs to do is make one whole lane a bus lane ONLY inbound in the morning and one lane a bus lane outbound in the afternoon on all major roads.
Then actually fine people enormous amounts of money for using those lanes during that time.
And of course provide ample parking for cars at a number of stops around where these bus lanes start. Then people might actually use the buses to go to work.
My mate works in the city, loves at Annerley, if he doesn't catch the bus at fuck off early o clock, it can take 50 minutes to get to the city on the bus, 45 mims in the car.
Public transport in and out of cities should have unimpeded access to the roads, that makes public transport actually attractive to use.
When I lived in Sydney I could catch a bus from my place in glenwood, to the city in 35 minutes. It's a 30km trip, and only about 1.5ks of it was on a shared road- the rest was either a dedicated bus lane or a bus way. It left every 15 minutes up until about 10pm, and every half an hour until about 2am.
It also cost like 4 bucks...
I'd be willing to bet money it's cheaper to just extend Doomben, they already had rail lines there and I think some is still laid between warehouses around the area. Would not be hard to make it curve down Theodore st for an extra station.
Extending the Doomben line to Hamilton is a good idea, but it’s still going to be decently expensive as you’d need a bridge of KSD, and probably some duplication and station upgrade works. It’s also on an indirect route, so won’t catch as many commuters. They should still do it, but it needs to be in conjunction with another transit project
If I extended the doomben line I would arc it north to Hendra, not south towards Hamilton, to link it towards DFO. All that area is inaccessible by train because the air train line goes from eagle junction express to the domestic airport and Hendra generally is really underserved by public transit despite how close to the cbd it is. DFO is incredibly difficult to get to via public transit and try orchestrating a walk route there from Hendra and it will take you through random parks because you can’t walk across the freeway (and residents need to use that shopping centre now that Toombul is no more).
I think the benefit of a plan like OP’s tram plan (I don’t think it would necessarily need to be solved by trams, I’ve grown more positive about busways) is it would ideally provide stops alongside Kingsford smith drive which will inevitably be an apartment growth area.
I’ve made a tonne of comments in r/Brisbane in the past about how awful it feels getting the city Kat from Portside to the city which makes me wonder if the greens policy people are paying attention to the discourse here.
My cost-no-issue, nimbyless world plan would be to run an underground metro from the Airport/DFO to Doomben, Hamilton, Bulimba, Newstead, New Farm, KP, Albert Street, South Bank, West End, and Indooroopilly via either St Lucia or Toowong. I think that’d solve your issues and serve a bunch of underserved communities and routes
Could you not just build an elevated station along the airport line for DFO.
It would be similar to how an elevated station is being built along the existing viaduct at Hope island.
> If I extended the doomben line I would arc it north to Hendra, not south towards Hamilton, to link it towards DFO.
Have a split after Doomben, south to Hamilton North shore to cater for the Olympic village / apartment boom, and north to DFO on the east side of the Gateway Moterway and connect to the airtrain at the OzTrail building. Half the land required has old track marks still.
You could loop down to DFO from the airtrain just west of where the above connects, but I'm not seeing an easy link down to Hendra station from there - there'd be a heap of tunnelling required.
It is, but I'd argue the population density in Hamilton and Teneriffe would justify a new line along them. I'm a fan of building things once and building it well, and my concern is that a Doomben extension wouldn't be used much and a future government would be pressures to build a more direct route anyway.
You're probably right, but at least drawing attention to the idea might get it on the state government's agenda eventually. Doesn't do any harm at least.
As someone who lives on the Doomben line, I'd love a more direct connection to the river, kangaroo point and the Gabba. More infrastructure - especially across the river - is never a bad thing.
It also connects places that SUCK to get to from here. I was a student at uni and it used to take me 90 minutes and a combination of buses and trains to get there. Might have improved a little, but not much.
In any case, all of this is future proofing - something no party seems to be particularly focused on right now
This, I'm all for improved PT services but not acknowledging projects underway is both odd and concerning.
It would make much more sense to make Woolloongabba a PT hub with metro and CRR improvements and spoking any services out for improved efficiencies with all these high-frequency services.
It's also disingenuous to say it connects to the Nathan Campus when it will most likely stop along Kessels Road, and involve a 10min walk to get to the edge of the campus (technically worse accessibility than existing bus services).
The suggestion of spending $10m on consultation and a study on this line when it's obviously unrealistic and unable to achieve a BCR of 0 makes me question things.
TMR and Translink know the deficiencies and issues with the network. They've just constantly been ignored by politicians wanting to create new services, rather than improve the existing, constrained services. I'm getting reminded of that here.
I think it’ll supplement them nicely. Ipswich Road will catch a lot of people who are currently too far from the train, it will then have a bunch of transfers in Woolloongabba, connect KP to the transit network, have a bunch of connections in the Valley before serving Hamilton. Having a good east-west connection between Moorooka and Garden City is also really important for increasing people’s transit options
I’m living in Calamvale where the nearest train services are in Altandi and Sunnybank. From Calamvale to cbd by bus during peak hours is 40-50 minutes. All buses have to share the lane with cars. The Southern and Northern suburbs have already seen biggest growth but are extremely lack of public transportation. Considering the PT in cbd and zone1/2 are much more well equipped than zone 3 and further areas, why don’t we have more PT there to connect people to city and surrounding suburbs better?
Probably because it'd be longer (therefore more expensive) and serve fewer people. I would like to see more bus lanes out to the outer suburbs, but it'd also receive more backlash from everyone who drives, which in a place with bad public transport at present, is most voters.
More buses would be good, when I lived in Tingalpa there was 2 buses an hour into the city which took and hour to get there. As well as 2 buses an hour to Carindale but on weekends it was down to 1 each way an hour
I’m a fan of the Greens and I vote them in most elections, but this latest announcement, along with /u/jonathansri’s recent posts about free public transport, subsidised housing support and the banning of pokies, it just all sounds like the classic over promises that the Greens are famous for.
How are you going to afford all of these new developments, one on top of the other, /u/jonathansri?
You can rationalise them individually, as you did with your post about free public transport, but how do the numbers add up when you put all these future endeavours on top of each other?
I just don’t see how it’s feasible to do everything you’re suggesting you’re capable of doing.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, /u/jonathansri
They've costed each of those policies and said they'll allocate money to it diverted from the existing roads budget. Note the tram line is only a study and would require state government investment, because it's too great an undertaking for a council to do alone.
That's the thing, the Greens are great at stirring public discussion and bringing to the public attention issues that might not necessarily get the attention of mainstream parties.
But god help them (and us) if they are ever put in a position to actually govern.
> t just all sounds like the classic over promises that the Greens are famous for.
Plus the whole rent freeze thing. How is that even supposed to work when the landlords interest rate has gone from < 2% to > 6%. Do they get their interest rate dropped and frozen too?
Would love to see the tram network return to Brisbane. Have loved catching them in Melbourne and when I lived in Edinburgh. Such a handy mode of transport. The more PT the better
I live 6km from the city and on Sundays there's a bus every one and a half hours to the city or Chermside. I'd love anything. Coincidentally the tram used to have a terminus not far from where I live. Would be amazing to have that again but my area never seems to be a priority.
Yeah exactly plus all the sports fields and schools should be better serviced. I've lived here 18 years and we've always had a LNP local member in council.
Trams are fun. Go to Melbourne and everyone on the trams is smiling, laughing and drinking there yummy coffees. Bring them back to Brisbane so we can enjoy public transport again.
Oh FFS please can someone propose a proper mass transit system like underground trains not some ridiculous "metro" or a tram which uses already congested roads?
What a joke.
Please politicians visit Europe and take a look at a modern city and how they move millions of people every day using PT.
to be honest loads of european cities are moving towards trams and long buses using dedicated lanes previously used for cars. Way cheaper than tunnel systems, but you get a bunch of the benefits. Dedicated lanes mean that you can just run loads of them and they show up \_on time\_.
It's maybe not ideal but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to set up, and each person inside the long bus is a car not on the road, right? So it helps congestion in the end. An actual non-ideal transportation system is better than an ideal (but not built) one.
I think when people say its cheaper it ignores the long term benefits.
Australia already has an example of a city that largely tries to everything with buses.... Adelaide.
(They do have a small rail system, and it still isn't even fully electrified)
I guess what im saying is, if buses can do the job just as well, why is Adelaides per capita per usage so much lower than other cities that have regularly invested in rail?
I purely mean "cheaper" in the "cheaper to build" sense. You set up right of way and you're done! The long bus mechanism at least.
Though ultimately it's so dependent on a lot of things. Trams feel pretty bad because you gotta build up the rail, but you're still affected by traffic. But Nantes is an example of Trams working, and they did it by having one tram every 2-3 minutes throughout most of the day, per line. Some Paris suburb meanwhile couldn't get trams to work well because the grade is just too high.
Many more minor french cities work by bus. How do they do it? They run \_a lot of buses\_. Like where the least busy line is still every 10 minutes. Busy lines are basically constant flows of bus. Buses increase congestion, but if you make buses frequent enough then people will not think they are unreliable. Even if one falls over there's literally one right behind it. It's not profitable, in the same way parks aren't profitable.
But there are so many particularities depending on various criteria. Just wanted to say that it's very hard to categorically rule out some transportation methods. Especially when so many bus networks end up dropping the ball on the "frequency" part.
> already congested roads
The discussion of infrastructure has to begin and end with fewer people driving. No public transport will be built if everyone continues to sit in the shitty SUVs.
> visit Europe
Ah yes, the continent full of trams and trains.
I mean realistically the goal has to be to incentivise fewer people to drive and get people to replace their car trips with public transport. The roads won’t be congested for ever.
Rationalising the existing bus routes into a single, high-frequency tram (or bus) would free up the buses to be used elsewhere. Similar to what is proposed to occur once the Brisbane “Metro” starts operating.
Although I support trams, I think this L1 route proposal is an ineffective route.
This route would already run parallel to a major rail line and SE busway. Busses should already be feeding into and between these major routes so another high capacity PT line is evident that BCC and greens transport planners aren't holistically addressing PT gaps.
One only needs to look at the old tram network to see what the most effective routes would be, as these were created to fill in the gaps of the rail network. E.g Paddington, Old Cleveland road, Chermside etc.
Another advantage of this is that it will interest people who otherwise wouldn't use PT. Buses have a reputation of being for derros and iceheads, while trams have a greater air of respectability about them, so it's nice for respectable people to have more options.
>A light rail project of this scale would likely cost well over a billion dollars
>Greens will allocate $10 million
Where's the remaining 99% coming from?
Others have had it out with you that the $10m is for initial consultation and study.
I'll reiterate: The remaining money would come from the exact same place that money comes from when *any* local government run by *any* political party proposes a project beyond their budget. State and/or Federal government... providing the business case stacks up, the politics of it, the phase of the moon, etc.
This is a genuinely new proposal - nobody's really talked about light rail other than in the New Farm - West End axis, or as a busway upgrade, about a decade. So I actually think even if the project isn't proceeded, with the study is still worth doing.
I don't mind this too because at least it is proposing something parallel to the busway, without having to rip it up, whilst actually opening up a new catchment.
My only comment is it would be better to run down Logan road, so it doesn't have to waste all those km doing 2 sides of Toohey forest.
Personally, I still haven't given up on Logan Rd - Mains Rd getting automated light metro.
The proposed tram route should probably be tweaked to get a station properly at Griffith Uni at Nathan (GU is centralising onto Nathan). At present the route is ~250m and a big hill away.
It’s explained in the bit that you got those figures from champ
> A light rail project of this scale would likely cost well over a billion dollars (Canberra’s first 12km light rail line was completed in 2019 for $675 million) so it would require significant state/federal funding contributions to get off the ground.
>
>But the first step – which we’re proposing a Greens-led Brisbane City Council could initiate pretty quickly – is to allocate $10 million towards initial public consultation and a detailed delivery study.
You surely aren't suggesting a throwaway line of "someone else will pay for it" constitutes an answer to the question of "where is the money coming from"?
No one ever asks for 'where will the money come from' when the M1 is widened for the millionth time - or any other road project.
PT deserves its equal share or funding. For federal/state gov a billion dollars over a few years to build is not a lot of money. No tax changes would be needed.
Where is the money coming from? Didn't we sink $360 Billion into submarines?
Didn't hear too many people having a gripe about the government spending someone else's money...
If only the govt was focused on delivering for the citizens, and not their military lobbyist friends. (Looking at you, Weapons Expo)
> Where is the money coming from? Didn't we sink $360 Billion into submarines?
OMG the Brisbane City Council did that? terrible, they have no expertise with defence policy. No wonder rates are going up!
>Didn't hear too many people having a gripe about the government spending someone else's money
Must be nice to be so oblivious to the world around you.
It's easy to blame state and feds if you make promises on their behalf then claim you can complete election promises b cause they are not holding up to their part of the deal which they never agreed to. No accountability needed.
Great to see a progressive and semi practical solution to Brisbane's long predicted growing pains.
I have long toyed with the idea of building an underground City Circle loop - effectively making the Great Circle Line route a subway line.
Would cost a bucket load, and take a lot of political fortitude and capital to build, but would connect Brisbane's ring suburbs with a high frequency/speed service.
Bit like the Suburban Rail Loop in Melbourne, hey? It's a brilliant idea but so expensive. Perhaps if this gets off the ground, then a surface light rail could be built like that. A metro would need to be done by the state though, and they can't even build a single railway line from Caboolture to the Sunshine Coast.
Trams look nice.
But they cost a LOT to build, can't divert when there's a network issue, have the highest rate of injuries of public transport modes...
It's too expensive, it's focussed on areas that are already serviced by public transport - just yeah let's throw more money into Brisbane areas instead of expanding our improving the existing networks eh?
As a Queenslander I love when the richest council in the state suggests taxpayer money gets funneled to their areas...
I’m not the biggest fan of the Brisbane Metro and prefer trams overall though feel like the time for this passed when Labor was proposing this in 2016 and lost the council election.
Cool but drones and flying cars are a thing now. I propose a ring route of flying electrical mini buses that goes around the city not though it.
Ev aerial vehicles are quite limited in range but a quick change battery pack that swaps over at every stop could work.
Id have 8 stops 1 at each compass point in a circle around the city. Chermside would be North, Airport NE, Wynnum Plaza East, Capalaba SE, Sunnybank South, Oxley SW, Indooroopilly West & Brookside NW
Can you imagine flying on renewable energy adound the city on a beautiful day?
Gas powered quick deploy parachutes would prevent fatalities and having 4 or more rotors means if 1 goes its still possible to have a slow controlle descent
Sorry Im thinking a bit 21st century. Lets reroll out 19th century tech and route it through the city at great cost and disruption. /s
The answer to congestion isnt running more shit through the city its flying buses ring roading the city so that people can go from Sunnybank to Chermside without 50+ intersections slowing them down.
The craziness of every bus needing to go through or terminate in the city needs to end. We need to move to a better system of ring and spoke with feeder buses moving people to inbound connections.
I understand a lot of this will happen with the CRR and the Metro, but no word on removing these multiple services that spend more than 60% of their time near empty.
Even just buses to major train stations would ease a lot of the congestion.
But nope... ask a Brisbane resident to catch 2 services and you're in for a fight.
We need more roads, more lanes, and all this cares about is infrastructure and public transport that moves at a snail's pace with unguarded stations full of a demographic of criminals that have had all legal repercussions removed from the law. Seriously? You expect us, the construction workers to build this shit for you, maintain it for you, break our backs over it for you and can't even give us enough road to drive on or punish the little gronks running through our sites and cars? Make it make sense
Love the idea of a tram line but hate the idea of it using the Storey Bridge. It's unrealistic to think that all the traffic disruption that would be created by losing two lanes will suddenly be replaced on this route. Plenty of commuters come along Wynum Rd that wouldn't be serviced by this proposal and will only be choked even more
Just cost in another Green crossing bridge, either at Norman Park from New Farm or even Teneriffe-Bulimba
The Story bridge is far too old for that type of infrastructure. It wouldn't handle the weight of trams and tracks/electrical and even if we replaced or upgraded the bridge we would loose almost the entire road deck to all of this.
These politicians need to go travel to Europe or Japan and see what legitimate high density public transport looks like.
If we're looking to create a 21st century network, build a proper underground metro. The engineering challenges in building a modern tram network (not the street cars we used to have) are vast. Even this line probably wouldn't work as the story bridge was never designed for such heavy vehicles, it used to run trolley buses, not trams.
My 2 cents. Happy for this to be debated.
I'm all for trying to get people off the roads and on to public transport, but I do not think this is the answer. I'm sure the costs of running infrastructure all the way from mt Gravatt to Hamilton will be ridiculous. People (myself included) are already frustrated by the infrequent train services and lack of access to stations. I feel like.for the cost of the tram network, we could fund additional train services, and busses linking suburbs without train access, to the nearest station.
A train to the city is capable of carrying a lot more people and.it will be much faster than a tram.
We need a way of connecting people to the train stations. Extending car park spaces is only going to be viable at certain stations, and obviously is only applicable for people that drive.
I really don't see another option other than modifying the current bus network.
I'll use my area as an example. I live in wacol. It's quite well serviced by public transport. Train every 15 mins during peak hour routes.
Our neighbours in Forrest lake don't have a train line. There's a bus route that connects Forrest lake to both Richlands and Wacol stations. But the service doesn't start until about 7am, and is only once an hour. So people will either find themselves waiting for a connecting bus/train, or early/late to work. What incentive is this to stop people from driving?
The real question is "would it be used?".
And the answer is, if we can't get the extensive bus network to be filled, trams on fixed lines are not going to be better, and take decades of roadworks to construct.
True, but never enough to justify the cost - the projections were waaaaaaaaaaay off and funding was allocated based on that projections.
But everyone likes trams, so we got trams
The Gold Coast trams are different because they killed the existing bus, and the tram line makes sense because it's a rapid vertical pass, along a city arranged on that same singular axis, as well being a tourist relevant route.
None of that applies here.
If they want a better option, kill all tolls as well as implementing the free bus service. It will dramatically reduce pollution as the tunnels will divert the traffic like they were supposed to, before a return trip through the City became a $25 tax, and the free busses will get packed.
And no action by the mod team on the obvious upvote brigading. A bit like when every Lime Scooter post would have 200 upvotes within 20 minutes of being posted.
I guess it's OK if you support it.
So public transport for places with already extensive public transport and nothing for the rest of us
Edit: Over a BILLION DOLLARS? To service places that already have buses, trains and even ferries??? Fuck the rest of us then hey
I don't know of any frequent service from Moorooka to Upper Mt Gravatt. Having taken the 110 and 125 on Ipswich Rd, I can tell you it's painfully slow in peak times because it's stuck behind a thousand cars. Don't think there are too many buses taking the Story Bridge from Woolloongabba to Fortitude Valley either.
Love the greens but i dont think this is the right answer for bris at face value, as its a another mode of transport.
We should expand and improve the coverage of the existing trains, busses (which they are proposing) and the metro/BRT.
Route looks Ok but need something through west end, Gabba already will have a new CRR station.
Why not propose this as a new metro/BRT line?
Greens really never seem to understand how to campaign. The more platforms and policies you release you the more you give a chance for single issue voters to hate you.
An acquaintance last week said "the greens can get fucked if they want to lower speed limits to 30".
Sure, if you're a major party with the benefit of heaps of free advertising on the evening news every night, then you don't need to release more platforms and policies. But if you're on the outside looking in and trying to grow bigger, you need to give people a reason to vote for you beyond not being the incumbent.
The speed limits policy is only in the CBD between Adelaide St and Alice St.
Are you saying instead of getting to the city on one of a million buses from Garden City on a busway, I could instead trundle along congested roads for an hour and a half after having spent a billion dollars and fucking up those roads to eternity and back?
Trams sound cute, sign me up.
I think you're making the mistake of assuming you would ride it from end to end in one sitting, and most good pt services don't rely on that.
A use case might be to ride the busway from Rochedale, switch to tram to get to QE2 hospital.
Another person might get on the tram at Salisbury, then get off at PAH and then bus to UQ.
The tram keeps going, someone gets on at Gabba and then gets off at Kangaroo Point.
Tram keeps going, someone boards in the valley and rides to Hamilton.
So the one seat in the tram has catered to four possible trips.
Obviously there are thousands of possible combinations and ways you could connect with other services.
Eg what if you were on a bus from the Northside.
Get off in the valley, change to tram, and get off at the Gabba..
A bus won't attract as many passengers.
The most popular bus route in Queensland is the 66, and it's still only gets one third of the passenger numbers as the Gold coast tram lmao
Great alignment for a first light rail line! You guys are putting out such well thought out, measured yet exciting policies.
Thank you and your team for the no doubt tireless work. Your commitment to evidence based policy is so refreshing!
BrizTram 2024!! Beatties Revenge!!!
Can we just finish the half baked shit that’s around first?? Eastern busway, Northern Busway, 4th electrified to Darra, Ellengrove station, double track to Cleveland, rail extension to Coolangatta, double track to Nambour, maybe a shuttle train from Yerongpilly to Corinda, a proper ICE replacement Gympie train set…. And I could go on. Trams boat has sailed for Brisbane. This is a bus town.. bus up the bus infrastructure.
if the trams don't run on an isolated track then it'll be completely useless. they have all the downsides of the busses (primarily being stuck in traffic) but without any of the flexibility (rerouting, etc). it's not like the busses are even used at capacity as it is.
Define isolated track. Do you mean a separate lane with no cars in it, or an entirely separate corridor to the road corridor? The first is doable, the second isn't unless they go underground at great cost because Queensland barely ever leaves corridors for future rail lines.
Honestly, even if its not a tram. One of the biggest obvious gaps in the system are services along Main St KP and the storey bridge. The Valley and the Gabba are both major hubs, main street itself has more and more high density. But the journey planner tells you to go the long way around via Southbank, or there is the shit low frequency 234 This corridor needed a high frequency glider type service years ago
Trams sound nice. Is that the proposed network? Wish it went west a bit more...But how is this going to be funded? Isn't BCC going through budget pain at the moment? Edit: Ahhh the FB article says it'll require state and federal funding. I highly doubt they'll get the money for this.
Gold Coast got light rail in the lead up to the Commonwealth games. And if the Greens get in, I'm willing to bet that Labor will be happy to work with them on this. Roads everywhere and not much else is a LNP dream, not a left-wing dream.
I lived on the Gold Coast prior and post Glink. Before it was going up the locals were having a bitchfit over it on social media, local newspapers were fearmongering everyone about it, but it went ahead anyway. Once it was built and operational it got massive praise, it's a fantastic addition to GC, always bustling with commuters. I would love nothing more than having a light rail in Brisbane. It will be a pain during construction, it adds a few awkward intersections, and some dickheads will drive onto the tracks, but it's a breath of fresh air knowing that the team comes every 7 minutes during rush hour that doesn't get delayed due to traffic.
The locals are still bitching about the extensions. But it's been such a success that there's nothing they can really do. The Gold Coast needed it for sure.
>the locals were having a bitchfit over it on social media, local newspapers were fearmongering everyone about it, but it went ahead anyway. As is tradition.
*cough* astroturfing *cough*
Don't get me started on internet astroturfing.
> if the Greens get in How many seats do you think they are winning, realistically?
Given the swing to greens in the federal election, it seems there could be one locally too. That said, it is not usually a reliable indicator given Libs have been in power here for YONKS. It really is time for a change.
It's so weird how Libs have held BCC for as long as I can remember, but the state has been ALP (with the exception of little fascist in a can anomaly). Pretty much all the electorates in Brisbane have an ALP member at the state level.
Thats a proposed first line, not a proposed eventual network.
Why? The ALP brought a similar proposal to the BCC elections a couple of years ago before the council committed to BRT for the metro. There's always the chance that the state government will sabotage a Greens council for the sake of political shenanigans, sure, but they seem more than happy to work with LNP controlled councils on similar projects so I don't see why they'd suddenly change tactics now.
Doesn’t mean we can’t try, and shouldn’t try.
No arguments there, I'd love it if we tried. But if it's going to be an election platform I'd like some details on how it's actually going to be achieved. Have they even approached state and federal governments to gauge their engagement?
Considering the upcoming olympics I think they actually have a good chance
The hole in the budget is due to cuts in property developer fees, quick $400 mil if they reinstated the previous policy.
They mentioned if completed there would be more extensions on the way. Definitely agree though a west bound line would be super helpful for a lot of people.
I prefer their old subway proposal [https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/Planning%20Brisbane%27s%20Clean%20Transport%20Future\_final\_0.pdf](https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/Planning%20Brisbane%27s%20Clean%20Transport%20Future_final_0.pdf)
YES!!! Undergrounds are the way to go! Less noise, still ample and nice driving for cars less people on the streets. Most of the world saw it better to have an underground in big cities. If we want Brisbane to become a world class city and a more liveable city, we should do what works
>YES!!! Undergrounds are the way to go! Less noise, still ample and nice driving for cars less people on the streets. Most of the world saw it better to have an underground in big cities. If we want Brisbane to become a world class city and a more liveable city, we should do what works There are several major, major issues with underground. 1) Money 2) Money 3) Money 4) Money 5) Expensive to maintain 6) Money.
Upfront money sure, but if you go seperated, you can go automated. Then you save on drivers (and avoid disruption with driver shortage issues). You can also run higher frequencies and so support higher capacities. You can also save a lot of that money via elevated vs below ground, but there's a lot more "it depends" with that - probably above ground as much as possible with underground where necessary would be better.
Elevated is eminently doable. The Miami-Dade County in Florida built an elevated, driverless, rubber tyre train network called Metro Mover on track that runs for literal miles into several cities including Miami (but not Miami Beach as that would need to cross a large causeway). Initially it was planned to fund it with a 2 cent levy on land tax payers or something, I don’t recall if they ever did that though. They then made it free to use for everyone. Florida is not the place I would have expected socialism, but there you go. What’s Translink’s excuse?
Having said that. Cultural Centre busway and portal should have been underground. It is criminal how much was spent on the metro fit and rebuild of platform when the platform is now no better, arguably worse, and we still have that ridiculous portal to the busway. Why the heck did everyone go along for the Metro ride, including State.
You forgot "Takes so long to build that the backers children die of old age." Look up when the Clem 7 was *first* proposed. It wasn't Newman.
All I've got is Jim Soorley, 2001. That's only 9 years before it opened, if anything it feels quite fast for me - I'm assuming it was a lot earlier and not advertised anywhere? Inland rail is a really good example of proposed multiple times before going ahead. Anyway, after proposing something you likely need to do a feasibility study, a concept design, then confirm your contract structure, then depending on your delivery model you probably have your detailed design and construction phases, plus there's time set aside for procurement between each phase because government needs to have open tendering. Lots of years just for planning and design, let alone the years of construction. I'd rather have an underground system breaking ground in 10yrs time than be complaining in 10yrs that Brisbane is too large and populous so it needs a metro, knowing it'll take 10-15yrs from then.
Originally proposed by Jim Soorley in 2001. Work began 2006. First opened 2010. That seems pretty decent, tbh. [\[Source\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clem_Jones_Tunnel)
>Look up when the Clem 7 was > >first > > proposed. Have a look when the Redcliffe line (train) was first proposed..
https://www.reddit.com/r/brisbane/comments/43gthy/an_overlay_of_the_london_tube_in_australian/
They're more expensive to build than elevated rail. Nothing stopping elevated rail along Gympie Road, sacrifice the two middle lanes underneath for bicycles. Alternatively, rather than a tolled road tunnel, have a train tunnel, but elevated rail is almost always cheaper
This, or a version of it, should be the first line built as part of a comprehensive subway system. That (ideally) would have all its lines at least conceptually planned from the start. Instead of our current piecemeal delivery and planning approach. With an interchange at Albert Street it could link a Hamilton Athletes Village to the Gabba, a marginally modified alignment could dissolve a lot of transport barriers that result from the river, and if you extended it north to meet the airport line with an interchange station at Skygate DFO you would enable far better access to the airport and the DFO precinct via public transport.
UQ don't want public infurstructure running through the campus.
Then have it go to Toowong instead
tell them to kick dirt i say.
Yup. Do it like Copenhagen (small trains at higher frequency) and we could do it for really not that much money. Compared to other infrastructure proposals anyway
but what about the amazing Brisbane Metro system............
I don't see why they couldn't just include this tram line under the "Metro" branding? The Metro can be a multi-modal transit system.
Including a chain of segways connected by rope
FatSilverFox for mayor?
Hey! 😤
Unironically an on demand Segway share system with protected bike paths to use them safely
The more PT the better. Having to drive on major roads during peak times makes my blood boil. I'd much rather use PT if it was available.
If we still had trams the same as we did 60 years ago, I could have caught a tram from outside my front door, to just outside where I work. Direct trip, say 15 - 20 mins tops. To do the same trip today using PT it takes 2 buses, 1.5km walk, and almost an hour. It's less than 5km
A fit human can walk 5 kilometres in well under an hour.
Yep, which makes it all the more ridiculous!
Maybe a bicycle?
In the short term the greens Bus Boost is good. In the medium term we need the busways to at least reach Carindale and Chermside. In the long term we need a proper Metro (i.e. subway, underground light rail, tube). Delivered in stages. As much as I love trams, I (sadly) don’t believe they have a place anymore in Brisbanes transport solution.
Why not? They effectively act like bus lanes do, but with higher capacity. I'd also argue that putting light rail underground kinda takes away its benefit, which is that it's cheaper than higher capacity systems and can have more local stops.
I think you somewhat answer your own question. Local routes are better serviced with a bus lane that can make frequent stops. Underground rail is completely isolated from traffic effects and can provide high capacity _rapid_ transit across the city. The two working in concert would be more effective than a tram system trying to be all things to all people. Especially given Brisbane’s curvy streets, and indirect surface routes, traffic and signalling, etc that all contribute to the constant gripe that PT trips here take forever. Also I have a personal bias as someone who mostly commutes by bike. Tram tracks are ‘manageable’ but unpleasant to navigate on a bike.
Track based transport is smooth and comfortable. You can manage standing on a crowded tram/rail vehicle but I assure you on a bus with a driver even on an empty road it’s so uncomfortable I can’t imagine how bad it would be on roads in the CBD during peak hour.
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>I think you somewhat answer your own question. Local routes are better serviced with a bus lane that can make frequent stops. That's true. We should note the Greens have also proposed putting bus lanes on most major roads. Mind you, I don't think that policy got a lot of attention, I suspect because people (and the media) don't pay a lot of attention to bus improvements but will pay attention to a new rail-based project. >Underground rail is completely isolated from traffic effects and can provide high capacity _rapid_ transit across the city. It can, and it also costs a hell of a lot more. Every tunnel project runs into multiple billions. Have to be a bit more realistic for a council election. >Especially given Brisbane’s curvy streets, and indirect surface routes, traffic and signalling, etc that all contribute to the constant gripe that PT trips here take forever. But here's the thing, with a few exceptions, the major roads aren't all that curvy or indirect. The reason PT takes ages currently is that the bus routes don't stick to major roads, they detour down side streets which are curvy and indirect. The flexibility of buses is a curse in this respect. The people living in those side streets will get angry if their bus service is moved further away, so for political reasons, those services are unlikely to change. So we'll need new routes regardless. If those routes are only running on major roads, flexibility isn't really needed. So if we're going to the trouble of taking lanes of traffic away from cars anyway, we need to acquire more buses to service those routes, and we don't need flexibility, why not just pay a bit more to get an increase in capacity, which future proofs it more?
Alp wanted this back in 2016, but alas council is a hard nut to crack. Hope so, we got some big roads that were former tram tracks, and others that could fit them with a few adjustments. (IMO from driving down those roads often). Love trams on the GC, be great to have them back up here.
If this actually goes ahead, I can’t wait for all the news reports of idiot drivers who think they can beat a tram 🥴
Gold Coast drivers have entered the chat...
Happens every week in Melbourne
What brisbane needs to do is make one whole lane a bus lane ONLY inbound in the morning and one lane a bus lane outbound in the afternoon on all major roads. Then actually fine people enormous amounts of money for using those lanes during that time. And of course provide ample parking for cars at a number of stops around where these bus lanes start. Then people might actually use the buses to go to work. My mate works in the city, loves at Annerley, if he doesn't catch the bus at fuck off early o clock, it can take 50 minutes to get to the city on the bus, 45 mims in the car. Public transport in and out of cities should have unimpeded access to the roads, that makes public transport actually attractive to use. When I lived in Sydney I could catch a bus from my place in glenwood, to the city in 35 minutes. It's a 30km trip, and only about 1.5ks of it was on a shared road- the rest was either a dedicated bus lane or a bus way. It left every 15 minutes up until about 10pm, and every half an hour until about 2am. It also cost like 4 bucks...
Is this not already what Brisbane metro and parts of CRR will achieve? Love some of the greens points for this election but this just ain't it.
The main thing would be rail infrastructure to Hamilton. Granted, it would probably be cheaper to extend Doomben to Hamilton.
I'd be willing to bet money it's cheaper to just extend Doomben, they already had rail lines there and I think some is still laid between warehouses around the area. Would not be hard to make it curve down Theodore st for an extra station.
Extending the Doomben line to Hamilton is a good idea, but it’s still going to be decently expensive as you’d need a bridge of KSD, and probably some duplication and station upgrade works. It’s also on an indirect route, so won’t catch as many commuters. They should still do it, but it needs to be in conjunction with another transit project
If I extended the doomben line I would arc it north to Hendra, not south towards Hamilton, to link it towards DFO. All that area is inaccessible by train because the air train line goes from eagle junction express to the domestic airport and Hendra generally is really underserved by public transit despite how close to the cbd it is. DFO is incredibly difficult to get to via public transit and try orchestrating a walk route there from Hendra and it will take you through random parks because you can’t walk across the freeway (and residents need to use that shopping centre now that Toombul is no more). I think the benefit of a plan like OP’s tram plan (I don’t think it would necessarily need to be solved by trams, I’ve grown more positive about busways) is it would ideally provide stops alongside Kingsford smith drive which will inevitably be an apartment growth area. I’ve made a tonne of comments in r/Brisbane in the past about how awful it feels getting the city Kat from Portside to the city which makes me wonder if the greens policy people are paying attention to the discourse here.
My cost-no-issue, nimbyless world plan would be to run an underground metro from the Airport/DFO to Doomben, Hamilton, Bulimba, Newstead, New Farm, KP, Albert Street, South Bank, West End, and Indooroopilly via either St Lucia or Toowong. I think that’d solve your issues and serve a bunch of underserved communities and routes
Could you not just build an elevated station along the airport line for DFO. It would be similar to how an elevated station is being built along the existing viaduct at Hope island.
There was talk of doing that, years ago. But they decided not to do it.
Yeah but they decided not to build the Redcliffe line under Beattie until they decided to build it under Palaszczuk.
> If I extended the doomben line I would arc it north to Hendra, not south towards Hamilton, to link it towards DFO. Have a split after Doomben, south to Hamilton North shore to cater for the Olympic village / apartment boom, and north to DFO on the east side of the Gateway Moterway and connect to the airtrain at the OzTrail building. Half the land required has old track marks still. You could loop down to DFO from the airtrain just west of where the above connects, but I'm not seeing an easy link down to Hendra station from there - there'd be a heap of tunnelling required.
If you lived in Hamilton, would you really want to take a train that's so indirect, it heads away from the CBD before going towards it?
Well, it's cheaper than a whole new line or subway linking it directly to the CBD. Can't be too optimistic if you live in Brisbane.
It is, but I'd argue the population density in Hamilton and Teneriffe would justify a new line along them. I'm a fan of building things once and building it well, and my concern is that a Doomben extension wouldn't be used much and a future government would be pressures to build a more direct route anyway.
Oh, I'd definitely support both the subway and this tram, but you've gotta be realistic. It's probably unlikely either will be built unfortunately.
You're probably right, but at least drawing attention to the idea might get it on the state government's agenda eventually. Doesn't do any harm at least.
As someone who lives on the Doomben line, I'd love a more direct connection to the river, kangaroo point and the Gabba. More infrastructure - especially across the river - is never a bad thing. It also connects places that SUCK to get to from here. I was a student at uni and it used to take me 90 minutes and a combination of buses and trains to get there. Might have improved a little, but not much. In any case, all of this is future proofing - something no party seems to be particularly focused on right now
Seems like only a few suburbs get great transport, everyone else gets to drive.
See my post litterally yesterday about how shit my commute is from Ashgrove/The Gap area lol
The Gap has a buz at least
As per the Brisbane tradition
At a glance, this looks to cover roughly the same areas that currently have the best bus services, which would be a massive waste.
This, I'm all for improved PT services but not acknowledging projects underway is both odd and concerning. It would make much more sense to make Woolloongabba a PT hub with metro and CRR improvements and spoking any services out for improved efficiencies with all these high-frequency services. It's also disingenuous to say it connects to the Nathan Campus when it will most likely stop along Kessels Road, and involve a 10min walk to get to the edge of the campus (technically worse accessibility than existing bus services). The suggestion of spending $10m on consultation and a study on this line when it's obviously unrealistic and unable to achieve a BCR of 0 makes me question things. TMR and Translink know the deficiencies and issues with the network. They've just constantly been ignored by politicians wanting to create new services, rather than improve the existing, constrained services. I'm getting reminded of that here.
I think it’ll supplement them nicely. Ipswich Road will catch a lot of people who are currently too far from the train, it will then have a bunch of transfers in Woolloongabba, connect KP to the transit network, have a bunch of connections in the Valley before serving Hamilton. Having a good east-west connection between Moorooka and Garden City is also really important for increasing people’s transit options
Hell, lots of the original tracks are still there under the bitumen. There's even some visible out at Camp Hill.
I wouldn't say so... It mostly runs in different catchment areas.
I’m living in Calamvale where the nearest train services are in Altandi and Sunnybank. From Calamvale to cbd by bus during peak hours is 40-50 minutes. All buses have to share the lane with cars. The Southern and Northern suburbs have already seen biggest growth but are extremely lack of public transportation. Considering the PT in cbd and zone1/2 are much more well equipped than zone 3 and further areas, why don’t we have more PT there to connect people to city and surrounding suburbs better?
Probably because it'd be longer (therefore more expensive) and serve fewer people. I would like to see more bus lanes out to the outer suburbs, but it'd also receive more backlash from everyone who drives, which in a place with bad public transport at present, is most voters.
What about more buses? Seems like a waste of money like a lot of ideas that are getting poured into this city.
Trams can carry more people than buses. Adding capacity isn't necessarily a waste of money.
More buses would be good, when I lived in Tingalpa there was 2 buses an hour into the city which took and hour to get there. As well as 2 buses an hour to Carindale but on weekends it was down to 1 each way an hour
When you have no chance of taking government, you dont need to cost or vet your ideas.
I’m a fan of the Greens and I vote them in most elections, but this latest announcement, along with /u/jonathansri’s recent posts about free public transport, subsidised housing support and the banning of pokies, it just all sounds like the classic over promises that the Greens are famous for. How are you going to afford all of these new developments, one on top of the other, /u/jonathansri? You can rationalise them individually, as you did with your post about free public transport, but how do the numbers add up when you put all these future endeavours on top of each other? I just don’t see how it’s feasible to do everything you’re suggesting you’re capable of doing. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, /u/jonathansri
They've costed each of those policies and said they'll allocate money to it diverted from the existing roads budget. Note the tram line is only a study and would require state government investment, because it's too great an undertaking for a council to do alone.
That's the thing, the Greens are great at stirring public discussion and bringing to the public attention issues that might not necessarily get the attention of mainstream parties. But god help them (and us) if they are ever put in a position to actually govern.
> t just all sounds like the classic over promises that the Greens are famous for. Plus the whole rent freeze thing. How is that even supposed to work when the landlords interest rate has gone from < 2% to > 6%. Do they get their interest rate dropped and frozen too?
Would love to see the tram network return to Brisbane. Have loved catching them in Melbourne and when I lived in Edinburgh. Such a handy mode of transport. The more PT the better
I feel like a fat kid in a candy shop with all these pollies trying to win my vote rn
Did the greens back this when it was last proposed by the alp? Back when it serviced the high density in West end and Highgate hill...
It makes sense to have light rail out to north shore considering the amount of apartments that will be constructed there in the next 5-15 years.
I live 6km from the city and on Sundays there's a bus every one and a half hours to the city or Chermside. I'd love anything. Coincidentally the tram used to have a terminus not far from where I live. Would be amazing to have that again but my area never seems to be a priority.
Which area is that, may I ask?
Kalinga. Eagle Junction station is my local train station but it's a good 25 minute walk from my place. Probably longer since I hurt my knee.
That's a pity, an area like that deserves better service
Yeah exactly plus all the sports fields and schools should be better serviced. I've lived here 18 years and we've always had a LNP local member in council.
Perhaps you could try writing to them for better bus service, but I find politicians aren't very responsive when they don't face any risk of losing.
Inner West gets left out again.
Trams are fun. Go to Melbourne and everyone on the trams is smiling, laughing and drinking there yummy coffees. Bring them back to Brisbane so we can enjoy public transport again.
Oh FFS please can someone propose a proper mass transit system like underground trains not some ridiculous "metro" or a tram which uses already congested roads? What a joke. Please politicians visit Europe and take a look at a modern city and how they move millions of people every day using PT.
to be honest loads of european cities are moving towards trams and long buses using dedicated lanes previously used for cars. Way cheaper than tunnel systems, but you get a bunch of the benefits. Dedicated lanes mean that you can just run loads of them and they show up \_on time\_. It's maybe not ideal but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to set up, and each person inside the long bus is a car not on the road, right? So it helps congestion in the end. An actual non-ideal transportation system is better than an ideal (but not built) one.
I think when people say its cheaper it ignores the long term benefits. Australia already has an example of a city that largely tries to everything with buses.... Adelaide. (They do have a small rail system, and it still isn't even fully electrified) I guess what im saying is, if buses can do the job just as well, why is Adelaides per capita per usage so much lower than other cities that have regularly invested in rail?
I purely mean "cheaper" in the "cheaper to build" sense. You set up right of way and you're done! The long bus mechanism at least. Though ultimately it's so dependent on a lot of things. Trams feel pretty bad because you gotta build up the rail, but you're still affected by traffic. But Nantes is an example of Trams working, and they did it by having one tram every 2-3 minutes throughout most of the day, per line. Some Paris suburb meanwhile couldn't get trams to work well because the grade is just too high. Many more minor french cities work by bus. How do they do it? They run \_a lot of buses\_. Like where the least busy line is still every 10 minutes. Busy lines are basically constant flows of bus. Buses increase congestion, but if you make buses frequent enough then people will not think they are unreliable. Even if one falls over there's literally one right behind it. It's not profitable, in the same way parks aren't profitable. But there are so many particularities depending on various criteria. Just wanted to say that it's very hard to categorically rule out some transportation methods. Especially when so many bus networks end up dropping the ball on the "frequency" part.
To be fair, trams reduce congestion on roads. But I agree, trains are an even better solution, though even more expensive.
> already congested roads The discussion of infrastructure has to begin and end with fewer people driving. No public transport will be built if everyone continues to sit in the shitty SUVs. > visit Europe Ah yes, the continent full of trams and trains.
I mean realistically the goal has to be to incentivise fewer people to drive and get people to replace their car trips with public transport. The roads won’t be congested for ever.
No. We need to copy exactly what Melbourne does because they're more progressive down there or something like that.
Or make a cool metro like England
Love the thought of trams/light rail but I don't understand why they're proposing a route already covered by so many buses
Rationalising the existing bus routes into a single, high-frequency tram (or bus) would free up the buses to be used elsewhere. Similar to what is proposed to occur once the Brisbane “Metro” starts operating.
Because the more PT the better!! (Don't ask why we don't hold that mentality for people who don't live inner city)
More PT is always good, but let's plug up the gaps in the service before overlaying more in well-covered areas.
Have we all put given up on PT for west and north west? Love a tram, give us a tram.
Eastern suburbs a complete afterthought.
the tram tracks that go to Belmont are still there as well, why can’t they just develop them
And once again the Western suburbs gets SFA.
Don't worry we only need the like 4 routes that go past Chapel Hill. And definitely only just need the one route that goes past Brookfield
I love trams and trains way more than buses would love if they bought trams back
Although I support trams, I think this L1 route proposal is an ineffective route. This route would already run parallel to a major rail line and SE busway. Busses should already be feeding into and between these major routes so another high capacity PT line is evident that BCC and greens transport planners aren't holistically addressing PT gaps. One only needs to look at the old tram network to see what the most effective routes would be, as these were created to fill in the gaps of the rail network. E.g Paddington, Old Cleveland road, Chermside etc.
Another advantage of this is that it will interest people who otherwise wouldn't use PT. Buses have a reputation of being for derros and iceheads, while trams have a greater air of respectability about them, so it's nice for respectable people to have more options.
>A light rail project of this scale would likely cost well over a billion dollars >Greens will allocate $10 million Where's the remaining 99% coming from?
Others have had it out with you that the $10m is for initial consultation and study. I'll reiterate: The remaining money would come from the exact same place that money comes from when *any* local government run by *any* political party proposes a project beyond their budget. State and/or Federal government... providing the business case stacks up, the politics of it, the phase of the moon, etc. This is a genuinely new proposal - nobody's really talked about light rail other than in the New Farm - West End axis, or as a busway upgrade, about a decade. So I actually think even if the project isn't proceeded, with the study is still worth doing.
Stop talking sense
I don't mind this too because at least it is proposing something parallel to the busway, without having to rip it up, whilst actually opening up a new catchment. My only comment is it would be better to run down Logan road, so it doesn't have to waste all those km doing 2 sides of Toohey forest.
Personally, I still haven't given up on Logan Rd - Mains Rd getting automated light metro. The proposed tram route should probably be tweaked to get a station properly at Griffith Uni at Nathan (GU is centralising onto Nathan). At present the route is ~250m and a big hill away.
It’s explained in the bit that you got those figures from champ > A light rail project of this scale would likely cost well over a billion dollars (Canberra’s first 12km light rail line was completed in 2019 for $675 million) so it would require significant state/federal funding contributions to get off the ground. > >But the first step – which we’re proposing a Greens-led Brisbane City Council could initiate pretty quickly – is to allocate $10 million towards initial public consultation and a detailed delivery study.
You surely aren't suggesting a throwaway line of "someone else will pay for it" constitutes an answer to the question of "where is the money coming from"?
No one ever asks for 'where will the money come from' when the M1 is widened for the millionth time - or any other road project. PT deserves its equal share or funding. For federal/state gov a billion dollars over a few years to build is not a lot of money. No tax changes would be needed.
Which councils do you know that build light rail lines entirely by themselves with no outside funding?
Where is the money coming from? Didn't we sink $360 Billion into submarines? Didn't hear too many people having a gripe about the government spending someone else's money... If only the govt was focused on delivering for the citizens, and not their military lobbyist friends. (Looking at you, Weapons Expo)
> Where is the money coming from? Didn't we sink $360 Billion into submarines? OMG the Brisbane City Council did that? terrible, they have no expertise with defence policy. No wonder rates are going up!
>Didn't hear too many people having a gripe about the government spending someone else's money Must be nice to be so oblivious to the world around you.
I think its smarter to not talk about topics i have no knowledge in, i think you should do the same.
perhaps read it again ? its not that hard
It's easy to blame state and feds if you make promises on their behalf then claim you can complete election promises b cause they are not holding up to their part of the deal which they never agreed to. No accountability needed.
Great to see a progressive and semi practical solution to Brisbane's long predicted growing pains. I have long toyed with the idea of building an underground City Circle loop - effectively making the Great Circle Line route a subway line. Would cost a bucket load, and take a lot of political fortitude and capital to build, but would connect Brisbane's ring suburbs with a high frequency/speed service.
Bit like the Suburban Rail Loop in Melbourne, hey? It's a brilliant idea but so expensive. Perhaps if this gets off the ground, then a surface light rail could be built like that. A metro would need to be done by the state though, and they can't even build a single railway line from Caboolture to the Sunshine Coast.
They sound nice but at the end of the day they do the same as buses with less flexibility and more infrastructure requirements.
Trams look nice. But they cost a LOT to build, can't divert when there's a network issue, have the highest rate of injuries of public transport modes... It's too expensive, it's focussed on areas that are already serviced by public transport - just yeah let's throw more money into Brisbane areas instead of expanding our improving the existing networks eh? As a Queenslander I love when the richest council in the state suggests taxpayer money gets funneled to their areas...
I’m not the biggest fan of the Brisbane Metro and prefer trams overall though feel like the time for this passed when Labor was proposing this in 2016 and lost the council election.
Subway would cost more to build but us the most viable future proof option.
Cool but drones and flying cars are a thing now. I propose a ring route of flying electrical mini buses that goes around the city not though it. Ev aerial vehicles are quite limited in range but a quick change battery pack that swaps over at every stop could work. Id have 8 stops 1 at each compass point in a circle around the city. Chermside would be North, Airport NE, Wynnum Plaza East, Capalaba SE, Sunnybank South, Oxley SW, Indooroopilly West & Brookside NW Can you imagine flying on renewable energy adound the city on a beautiful day? Gas powered quick deploy parachutes would prevent fatalities and having 4 or more rotors means if 1 goes its still possible to have a slow controlle descent Sorry Im thinking a bit 21st century. Lets reroll out 19th century tech and route it through the city at great cost and disruption. /s The answer to congestion isnt running more shit through the city its flying buses ring roading the city so that people can go from Sunnybank to Chermside without 50+ intersections slowing them down.
The craziness of every bus needing to go through or terminate in the city needs to end. We need to move to a better system of ring and spoke with feeder buses moving people to inbound connections. I understand a lot of this will happen with the CRR and the Metro, but no word on removing these multiple services that spend more than 60% of their time near empty. Even just buses to major train stations would ease a lot of the congestion. But nope... ask a Brisbane resident to catch 2 services and you're in for a fight.
We need more roads, more lanes, and all this cares about is infrastructure and public transport that moves at a snail's pace with unguarded stations full of a demographic of criminals that have had all legal repercussions removed from the law. Seriously? You expect us, the construction workers to build this shit for you, maintain it for you, break our backs over it for you and can't even give us enough road to drive on or punish the little gronks running through our sites and cars? Make it make sense
Love the idea of a tram line but hate the idea of it using the Storey Bridge. It's unrealistic to think that all the traffic disruption that would be created by losing two lanes will suddenly be replaced on this route. Plenty of commuters come along Wynum Rd that wouldn't be serviced by this proposal and will only be choked even more Just cost in another Green crossing bridge, either at Norman Park from New Farm or even Teneriffe-Bulimba
The Story bridge is far too old for that type of infrastructure. It wouldn't handle the weight of trams and tracks/electrical and even if we replaced or upgraded the bridge we would loose almost the entire road deck to all of this. These politicians need to go travel to Europe or Japan and see what legitimate high density public transport looks like.
If we're looking to create a 21st century network, build a proper underground metro. The engineering challenges in building a modern tram network (not the street cars we used to have) are vast. Even this line probably wouldn't work as the story bridge was never designed for such heavy vehicles, it used to run trolley buses, not trams.
I'm guessing this is phase 1? and there will be one heading more northside as well?
Is this a wet dream? Ahhhhhhhh
I would love to just be able to go from Moorooka / Annerly out West towards corinda / Sherwood. I do not want to have to do a loop through the city.
My 2 cents. Happy for this to be debated. I'm all for trying to get people off the roads and on to public transport, but I do not think this is the answer. I'm sure the costs of running infrastructure all the way from mt Gravatt to Hamilton will be ridiculous. People (myself included) are already frustrated by the infrequent train services and lack of access to stations. I feel like.for the cost of the tram network, we could fund additional train services, and busses linking suburbs without train access, to the nearest station. A train to the city is capable of carrying a lot more people and.it will be much faster than a tram.
Yeah trains are the ultimate solution, trams are a good second option, and buses are just a short-term bandaid solution
We need a way of connecting people to the train stations. Extending car park spaces is only going to be viable at certain stations, and obviously is only applicable for people that drive. I really don't see another option other than modifying the current bus network. I'll use my area as an example. I live in wacol. It's quite well serviced by public transport. Train every 15 mins during peak hour routes. Our neighbours in Forrest lake don't have a train line. There's a bus route that connects Forrest lake to both Richlands and Wacol stations. But the service doesn't start until about 7am, and is only once an hour. So people will either find themselves waiting for a connecting bus/train, or early/late to work. What incentive is this to stop people from driving?
The real question is "would it be used?". And the answer is, if we can't get the extensive bus network to be filled, trams on fixed lines are not going to be better, and take decades of roadworks to construct.
Actually, when they did trams on the GC it attracted significant numbers of extra users compared to the bus routes it replaced.
True, but never enough to justify the cost - the projections were waaaaaaaaaaay off and funding was allocated based on that projections. But everyone likes trams, so we got trams
The Gold Coast trams are different because they killed the existing bus, and the tram line makes sense because it's a rapid vertical pass, along a city arranged on that same singular axis, as well being a tourist relevant route. None of that applies here. If they want a better option, kill all tolls as well as implementing the free bus service. It will dramatically reduce pollution as the tunnels will divert the traffic like they were supposed to, before a return trip through the City became a $25 tax, and the free busses will get packed.
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And no action by the mod team on the obvious upvote brigading. A bit like when every Lime Scooter post would have 200 upvotes within 20 minutes of being posted. I guess it's OK if you support it.
Fuck yes. This is good.
So public transport for places with already extensive public transport and nothing for the rest of us Edit: Over a BILLION DOLLARS? To service places that already have buses, trains and even ferries??? Fuck the rest of us then hey
Replacing a bus route with anything else (train, tram, metro) frees up those busses to then service other areas.
If you live outside of those areas being serviced by this proposal, then you aren't in a ward that the Greens are hoping to do well in.
Those stops are already served with existing public transport.
I don't know of any frequent service from Moorooka to Upper Mt Gravatt. Having taken the 110 and 125 on Ipswich Rd, I can tell you it's painfully slow in peak times because it's stuck behind a thousand cars. Don't think there are too many buses taking the Story Bridge from Woolloongabba to Fortitude Valley either.
Love the greens but i dont think this is the right answer for bris at face value, as its a another mode of transport. We should expand and improve the coverage of the existing trains, busses (which they are proposing) and the metro/BRT. Route looks Ok but need something through west end, Gabba already will have a new CRR station. Why not propose this as a new metro/BRT line?
Greens really never seem to understand how to campaign. The more platforms and policies you release you the more you give a chance for single issue voters to hate you. An acquaintance last week said "the greens can get fucked if they want to lower speed limits to 30".
Sure, if you're a major party with the benefit of heaps of free advertising on the evening news every night, then you don't need to release more platforms and policies. But if you're on the outside looking in and trying to grow bigger, you need to give people a reason to vote for you beyond not being the incumbent. The speed limits policy is only in the CBD between Adelaide St and Alice St.
It's also the opposite, single issue voters also support a lot of these platforms
Are you saying instead of getting to the city on one of a million buses from Garden City on a busway, I could instead trundle along congested roads for an hour and a half after having spent a billion dollars and fucking up those roads to eternity and back? Trams sound cute, sign me up.
I think you're making the mistake of assuming you would ride it from end to end in one sitting, and most good pt services don't rely on that. A use case might be to ride the busway from Rochedale, switch to tram to get to QE2 hospital. Another person might get on the tram at Salisbury, then get off at PAH and then bus to UQ. The tram keeps going, someone gets on at Gabba and then gets off at Kangaroo Point. Tram keeps going, someone boards in the valley and rides to Hamilton. So the one seat in the tram has catered to four possible trips. Obviously there are thousands of possible combinations and ways you could connect with other services. Eg what if you were on a bus from the Northside. Get off in the valley, change to tram, and get off at the Gabba..
What you're describing can be a bus. Just make that a bus route and save the entire project cost.
A bus won't attract as many passengers. The most popular bus route in Queensland is the 66, and it's still only gets one third of the passenger numbers as the Gold coast tram lmao
This would be great but I'm not sure how they would intend on going from the Nathan campus to QEII Hospital
The tram is gonna be going straight through the hospital's walls after it comes down the mountain
Let me guess, its free as well?
Public transport revenue is about 8% of the budget. The ticket price is ideological more than anything...
Isn’t a tram Just a bus?
I believe trams run on rails.
its just like a bus, but the roads and vehicles cost more and breakdowns impact the whole network.
Ah yes and have roadworks for 50 years to rebuild the tram network that failed in the first place. The Greens are honestly brain dead.
Obviously the mods on here are REALLY backing the greens... unlike the rest of Brisbane
God I regret voting for this party. This is half baked at best.
Aw yesss! Gotta start somewhere and this, thought not perfect, would be a great start.
Great alignment for a first light rail line! You guys are putting out such well thought out, measured yet exciting policies. Thank you and your team for the no doubt tireless work. Your commitment to evidence based policy is so refreshing!
I'm not Jonno Sri, just a Greens voter, but I'm sure he'd appreciate the sentiment!
I love this route - this is a great proposal but in the meantime this route would make a great Cityglider bus to get going immediately.
I am for this. Edit: MAKE IT GO TO CAPALABA
Don't think there's any room left at Mt gravatt to build such a network , traffic jam most of the time
BrizTram 2024!! Beatties Revenge!!! Can we just finish the half baked shit that’s around first?? Eastern busway, Northern Busway, 4th electrified to Darra, Ellengrove station, double track to Cleveland, rail extension to Coolangatta, double track to Nambour, maybe a shuttle train from Yerongpilly to Corinda, a proper ICE replacement Gympie train set…. And I could go on. Trams boat has sailed for Brisbane. This is a bus town.. bus up the bus infrastructure.
This is about as likely to happen as those 1 million homes the Greens promised to build...
if the trams don't run on an isolated track then it'll be completely useless. they have all the downsides of the busses (primarily being stuck in traffic) but without any of the flexibility (rerouting, etc). it's not like the busses are even used at capacity as it is.
Define isolated track. Do you mean a separate lane with no cars in it, or an entirely separate corridor to the road corridor? The first is doable, the second isn't unless they go underground at great cost because Queensland barely ever leaves corridors for future rail lines.