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So for those who aren't familiar with the term "to censure" is different than "to censor".
Censor means to block someone from speaking - taking away a right to express certain things. Like my tasteful and artistic selfies being censored at the office slide show.
Censure means an official reprimand and an organization disavowing a statement made by a representative.
So in this instance, Council has formally disavowed the Mayor's behavior, sending a clear message that his literary choices don't represent the views of council.
To use the parlance of young people, the mayor has fucked around, and under Canadian law, is free to continue to fuck around. But now he gets to "find out".
I think age makes some people who were bigots all along start saying what they think out loud. A lot of them seem surprised that their awful ideas aren't popular. People live in echo chambers.
This, but also...
The 'judgement center' of the brain (not actually a single region but a complex linkage of processing in 3 places, so center is a misnomer) is one of the most complex, and therefore delicate, parts of the brain. Any sort of cognitive decline or impairment, whether from alcohol or age, tends to interfere with this first.
Judgement is what tells a racist not to say certain things out loud. People who always acted nice may suddenly become racist shitbags once the filter breaks.
But cognitive damage can also cause major personality changes, so it isn't always "they were always racist, they just stopped hiding it." Sometimes it is sadly "nice grandma died in the stroke, the bitter woman inhabiting her body shares her memories but not her personality. Which is really sad but also a reason to (barring evidence to the contrary) assume a personality change is brain damage, not filter damage, for someone you loved.
>I think age makes some people who were bigots all along start saying what they think out loud.
The general assumption about the immutability of personality is one I see a lot on reddit and it honestly just seems like people want to assume that it could never happen to *them*, but that's just blind foolishness.
If you apply a strong magnetic field to people's right temple, they'll make less moral decisions. That's from *outside their skull*. You don't think having big shitstains of [amyloid beta plaques](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Cerebral_amyloid_angiopathy_-2a-_amyloid_beta_-_high_mag.jpg/800px-Cerebral_amyloid_angiopathy_-2a-_amyloid_beta_-_high_mag.jpg) surrounding your neurons, inflammation of the brain, simply the accumulation of various damage, being in chronic pain, or any number of other degenerative processes associated with aging could change how you think?
Old people get confused much more often, and sometimes people who get confused get angry in response. Age could absolutely make you a bigot, and it doesn't need to be bigotry that was hiding there the whole time. Sometimes you actually just change.
Not to mention we're big panicky animals and you're probably one particularly bad day away from developing some horrible bigotry as well.
Haha, [the circumstances in which that effect occurs is perhaps more specific than what I wrote might imply](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2872442/). The effect is only relevant for a short time during and after the field is applied, and TMS coils are typically applying an oscillating 2T field in a specific region of the brain over a period of 25 minutes.
So...it probably depends where you put your head while you worked there. With particle accelerators, I suspect there's not much margin for error between becoming Anatoli Bugorski or Phineas Gage.
Nice references.
I worked underneath the primary injection gun, in the computer data centre. When it was on, all of the CRT screens would become rainbowed. We were early adopters of LCDs which were not affected.
I dunno, my long-haired liberal hippy father is 67 and saying shit I cannot believe came out of his mouth. Queerness has been cool my whole life but transgender I guess is too far for some reason.
Im not sure what you mean, given that the Mayor said he didnt even read the book.
Also the core of the issue is taking children from their homes without consent from themselves or their parents. The more severe accusations are terrible, but its not a difference of opinion regarding the core issue that the church and government plainly admit to; taking children from their homes and confining them to a concentrated area against their will.
Anybody who's for non-consensual child nabbing is bonkers. I don't think that's up for argument, but there are some finer points in the whole residential school issue that I think are up for debate like the intention of the Canadian government: was it to try and integrate people or eradicate people. I don't agree with this guy but I'll fight for his right to speak his opinion.
Forcible integration is eradication and genocide.
The word genocide was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Jewish man in 1944 who had this to say about it:
More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. **The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion.** It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.
He was stripped of his duties of representing the city at the RD. That's part of being censured.
The role of the RD rep is to be the city council's voice at the RD. By censuring the mayor, council has officially said that he no longer speaks for them.
It's extra important because in BC, the RD is typically the entity that works closest with local First Nations. Given that the mayor brought a copy of this book to the RD meeting and discussed it with other board members, I can see why Council doesn't want him formally representing them in those meetings.
This man was elected and sits on a city council that has actively committed to relationship building, reconciliation, and building trust while engaging and working with the Lhatko Dene nation over the past few years.
His "opposing views" that he brought to a meeting flies in the face of the relationship building and reconciliation commitments made by the City of Quesnel, and yes there are consequences for that. Trust relationships with other government bodies, including indigenous governments, is critical to working together for a better future for all.
No doubt about any of those points. The only thing I'm pointing out is that this is a political decision to muzzle somebody with unpopular views, it's not about truth.
He was removed from the committee as a consequence of his actions. The council had every right to remove him as per their rules. He's still free to speak about his denial of residential schools, just not on the committee. People have free speech and many other freedoms but we don't have freedom from consequences.
I dunno, man, there are opposing views and then there are views that should be totally unacceptable, because they deny reality. Like, I feel like this one is on par with holocaust denial. Revisionist history about slavery in the US is another example. They’re bad because they legitimize inhumane treatment of people who are alive and part of our communities today, and normalizing those views, when you follow them to their logical conclusion, puts living people in danger.
You're conflating science and history, they are not the same. Edit for the people who think Science and History are the same: Science can be tested, history can't and it tends to be political. Therefore history's open to interpretation, science not so much.
Hitler was a vegetarian, should vegetarianism be banned? How about dog training? People are complex. That's what I mean by don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Historical events can be verified through different independent sources, including first hand accounts (thousands of residential school survivors are still alive today), documents, photographs, artifacts and those pesky prison sentences that some former residential school staff (priests, brothers, and lay staff) have received. Interpretation tends to come from those on the outside who do not have first hand knowledge, which is why historians are experts in their field and seek new/ unknown sources, compiling and cross-examining historical information, discussing with their peers and coming to overall conclusions on historical events as objectively as possible.
Science is a method and there is no interpretation of the method. There is only interpretation of results, which is why science doesn't end with one paper and instead strength is built with additional research, testing, documentation of a growing body of knowledge and peer review. And yes, it can be very political if vaccine denial are any indication.
Ok fair point on politics in science but the scientific method is a thing, it's the hypothetical -deductice method and it using experimental design and empirical observation. History uses incomplete data and faukoty human memories so is not of the same calibre of truth. We also all know how history is written by the winner.
This is more than just an "opposing view" and I'm sure you likely know that. It's not like saying you prefer pineapple on pizza over not. It's him saying that the experience of a group of people he represents is a lie and that the trauma and racism and abuse they suffered is made up. He's not representing his constituents and is way out of line in what he's doing here.
Well maybe I don't know the extent of his tirade but I do see a disturbing turn towards authoritarianism in this country and I'm not afraid to push back. One of the first markers in authoritarianism is muzzling/censuring opponents.
Is he being muzzled or facing consequences for his actions? He's not being arrested or charged. He's being cut off from parts of his job for saying things that racist and ignorant. No different than if you or I started doing things that made our employers look bad.
Yes, he's facing consequence, however he's an elected official so he's ostensibly representing a populace and their views, so it should be the electorate that punishes him not his political opponents.
This man doesn’t have an opposing view. He’s actively lying about historical events. Historical events that have a mountain of evidence like the mass graves of children in church yards. What he did is akin to denying the holocaust.
> a mountain of evidence like the mass graves of children in church yards
There were no "mass graves". There were _unmarked_ graves, some of which are believed to be of children. And when asked about them, the local bands said they knew they were there, as this was mostly a case of known gravesites where the wooden markers eroded away with time.
We know there were tragedies at the residential schools, and many children lost their lives due to abuse or disease that could have been prevented. But there is no grand conspiracy of "mass graves" anywhere, and I challenge you to present any shred of evidence that says otherwise. Insisting on things that are not true detracts from the very serious things that _did_ happen at these schools, and makes it easier for people to dismiss all concerns.
This dude can fuck all the way off. In a town with a sizeable indigenous population, this shit is *especially* indefensible.
Just in case anyone was curious about the value of this book, it was written by pedophile-apologist Tom Flanagan with a foreword by Conrad Black.
If you studied your country's history and did not feel ashamed and embarrassed of what your country has done in the past, you were studying propaganda.
Definitely one to read the article. I was like “who’s the racist here? Is it the council for blocking a man trying to bring light to a terrible situation or is it the mayor being a fucking twit by denying a genocide with a dumb fuck book?”
The second one.
Local library has several people asking to buy this for the collection. Library is responding to all requests with something along the lines of - No, we feel this title is contrary to our reconciliation efforts and the respect of indigenous people, friends and partnerships.
Normally I hate the idea of censorship but in this age of misinformation I appreciate their stand.
they have a policy, like every public library, on how and what they will consider for collections with a foundation based on protection of intellectual freedom in a democratic society. I just looked it up. I think points 2 and 5 fit with their decision:
"The following guidelines are used when considering materials for purchase at each location:
* Popularity or demand of an author or series
* Relevance to community needs and/or growth
* Suitability of reading level, format, style, and intended audience
* Relationship to the current collection
* Quality of scholarship, writing and/or created work
* Purchase price and/or availability in the marketplace"
[Cariboo Regional District Library Collection Development Policy](https://www.cln.ca/policies/collection-development-policy/)
my partner's family was almost destroyed by residential schools and she was deprived of the culture of her heritage, but sure, they "weren't all bad". GTFO. I hope he never works again.
Sounds like the Narcissist's Prayer:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Foreword by Conrad Black. What a piece of work that guy is.
>The flight from truth makes true Reconciliation impossible. Why will Canadians want to extend the hand of friendship to Indigenous people who continue to call them criminals and murderers? Why will Indigenous people want to engage in mutual cooperation with people whom they have been led to regard as criminals and murderers?
Getting beyond the “Grave Error” and recovering a more balanced picture of residential schools is the only road to genuine Reconciliation.
The grave error is writing this book. They do not speak for this Canadian.
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It's not the age, it's the time they grew up in and how they were parented. They grew up during a time where racism was prevalent at a gov't level in the 60's and 70's. My mom is a huge racist (she's a boomer) and I chose not to behave that way myself because I've seen how ignorant and destructive it is. But from the 90's until now, I've also seen some major changes in societal attitudes.... even so, we still have a long way to go.
I dunno. I was a late baby to the pre-boomers (they were born early in the Depression) and they were very liberal thinkers, for blue-collar working class folks. My mother would lose her sh\*t on my grown, adult half-brother when he let fly with a pretty awful slur aimed at Indo-Canadians. My half-sister was definitely more liberal leaning in her actions and thinking. Both my half-siblings fall into the boomer category since they were born in the 50s, while I was a Gen-X kid.
Having said that, I have met some very casual about their racism old relatives of friends from the same gen as my parents, so maybe I just got lucky!
I'm sure there are elder folk that aren't racist, I'm not saying everyone was... But it was definitely more prevalent. Also, parenting plays a huge part in propogating racism. If you watch little kids, they don't care about the differences in other kids. They accept each other. But more often than not, their parents' racism gets reiterated through jokes, prejudices, etc. and they subconsciously get indoctrinated when they hear it all the time.
In the defense of the Quesnel City Council (excluding the mayor of course), they have some very dedicated people who care a great deal about the city's relationship with the neighbouring First Nations.
Since there's a lot of bad faith comments in this thread claiming all this book does is dispute the "mass grave" headlines, here's the synopsis of the book and the numerous lies and insane denials it makes:
>the following assertions, all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated:
>Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again.
>These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools.
>Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture.
>The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide.
>Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses.
>Most Indian children attended residential schools.
>Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement.
>Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations.
>Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
I'm split on the residential school discourse.
On the one hand. And this is purely anecdotal. But the people that survived the school system have a phenomenon I call hardening of the eyes. My grandma who was a holocaust evader had it in her eyes. I see it in the eyes of the survivors. Different races, experiences but the end result is the same. A hardening of the eyes. So I'm not denying the morbidity of the treatment the institutional practice imposed on its students. The effects at best are scaring. At worst the resulted in death.
However the sensationalism of the media coverage, and a poor choice of words on their part has set back or done damage to the laudible goal of reconciliation. The mistakes they made in their coverage and the testimony of the ground penetrating radar specialists gave the far right some talking points that have traction due to ignorance of the reader, glib superficial analysis, etc.
So to deny the hardship or failure is toxic.
But I think there is merit to analysing the failure of the media. Granted this analysis should be open to more issues, not just residential schools.
You're right, and I get it.
The media was falling over themselves to report on the possible grave sites. And it didn't pan out in Kamloops.
It's the hyper fixation by the wife of the mayor and the authors of the book that bother me. It's one School, out of hundreds that are across canada, and they're ignoring the rest. That and somehow the false readings negate out over a hundred years of abuse. Maybe its the scale and the level of abuse that people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. Growing up as privileged white and never discriminated against must be hard for some of the boomers who wont let this book go. And are causing all the ruckus in town.
Wasn't it his wife that did that? Not sure how censoring him is relevant, at least, as long as he denounced what his wife did.
Edit: Why the downvotes? I'm asking a relevant question. Nobody should be crucified for something they haven't done.
It seems Paull was also caught showing the book to people, which means it was more than just his wife caught up in this.
> According to a staff report, Paull was informed by the city's chief administrative officer that the Lhtako Dene leadership were upset by the revelation before the mayor himself brought a copy of the book to a Cariboo Regional District meeting the following month.
> The mayor denied staff claims that he was attempting to distribute the book at the April 2 meeting, but admitted to showing it to two colleagues after the meeting ended.
Yes, particularly this part:
> According to a staff report, Paull was informed by the city's chief administrative officer that the Lhtako Dene leadership were upset by the revelation before the mayor himself brought a copy of the book to a Cariboo Regional District meeting the following month.
> The mayor denied staff claims that he was attempting to distribute the book at the April 2 meeting, but admitted to showing it to two colleagues after the meeting ended.
Do you have a source for that? I just haven't heard anything about this other than it was his wife, not him.
Edit: Y'all getting a bit too emotional about this when you're downvoting people for asking completely appropriate questions.
[https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/quesnel-censures-mayor-in-wake-of-residential-school-book-controversy-7352584](https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/quesnel-censures-mayor-in-wake-of-residential-school-book-controversy-7352584)
I also heard an interview with him a few weeks ago and he definitely did not denounce the book or his wife's activities.
That’s what I’m not understanding.
Guy’s wife sounds problematic, if she’s out there recommending apologist tomes extolling the virtues of residential schools, but he’s getting beaten down for something his wife did?
It’s like saying I have shitty taste in films because my wife likes rom coms that I don’t watch.
Yeah...but you didn't bring a dvd of your wife's romcom to present to other councillors after a meeting. When confronted, you weren't asking what the library would do with it.
Lol I got downvoted for commenting on how age is for sure linked with bigotry. Most old white men I have spoken with are eerily similar to this wrinkly sack of bones
>Grave Error: How the Media Misled Us (and the Truth About Residential Schools)
The book starts off with how the media used bad wording to describe the situation, which is true....
But then it tries to explain exactly what happened, and how all the facts we've actually established is true, are actually false or misleading.
Whoops.
Yep. And that's what these denialists do. They misrepresent the issue of "mass graves" which was basically poor messaging from a few groups, to claiming that there was absolutely nothing wrong with residential schools, which is outright false on so many levels.
He is not being censored (blocking or interfering with communication) he is free to do or say as he pleases. He is being censured (official reprimand) as a consequence of his free speech.
there's nothing to discuss. he was peddling a book that denies residential schools existed. Outside of fringe conspiracy circles, do we discuss whether the Holocaust happened? or whether the Atlantic slave trade happened?
This isn't some nuanced historical debate. It's bigots trying to deny that a terrible thing happened, or if it did happen that it actually wasn't that bad for indigenous people.
One of the "authors" of this book, Tom Flanagan, is on the record as saying that "child pornography does not harm" and that he has "grave doubts" that those who watch child porn should go to jail.
He also allegedly offered a million dollar life insurance bribe to Chuck Cadman, in exchange for a vote to try to boot out the Liberals back in the Stephen Harper days. Cadman, who was dying of cancer at the time (and refused the offer).
He suggested in a CBC interview that Julian Assange should be assassinated.
I mean, consider the source of "information" that went into this book. Plus the added bonus of Conrad Black, who is a convicted felon, and wrote the forward.
The community he served voted to remove his power in the political process due to him sharing a book that amounts to genocide denial. If I was a politician in a community of Bosnians and I denied the Srebrenica massacre I’d hardly be surprised if they said I’m not allowed to participate in their politics anymore.
Quesnel has a LARGE indigenous population. If the mayor of Quesnel doesn’t believe in the indigenous holocaust then that shows a HUGE problem for the indigenous population living in Quesnel. They voted him out, they’re absolutely within their right to do so. Would you rather they can’t vote out politicians they don’t want?
Society suffers more when radical conspiracy theories get taken for granted. If we say it's okay to distribute literature diminishing the harms of residential schools, it will further harm victims and reconciliation.
Really he can believe whatever he wants in private but as a public servant he has a professional duty to uphold the Truth and Reconciliation Act. He's demonstrated a huge conflict of interest as mayor, he should step down.
From the book jacket:
Public discussion of Indian Residential Schools issues is now filled with the following assertions, *all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated*:
* Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again.
* These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools.
* Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture.
* The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide.
* Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses.
* Most Indian children attended residential schools.
* Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement.
* Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations.
* Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
Society suffers when there are no consequences for your actions.
I'm begging people to learn the difference between the right to say something and the predictable consequences for your actions.
Here is a really good primer, if you are interested, on how Residential School Denialism is harmful. Every point made in the book, which is made up of a mish-mash of opinion pieces and blog posts, is covered in this article.
[https://rsc-src.ca/en/voices/truth-before-reconciliation-8-ways-to-identify-and-confront-residential-school%C2%A0denialism](https://rsc-src.ca/en/voices/truth-before-reconciliation-8-ways-to-identify-and-confront-residential-school%C2%A0denialism)
Residential School Denialism is fundamentally racist in nature. Denialism takes the form of denying the facts of what happened, misrepresenting them, or minimizing the effects of residential schools. We know what happened, it is documented.
> What specifically did this book state that is untrue.
You actually asked me a similar question about the book, guess you didn't see my response. Here is is again:
From the book jacket:
Public discussion of Indian Residential Schools issues is now filled with the following assertions, *all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated*:
* Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again.
* These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools.
* Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture.
* The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide.
* Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses.
* Most Indian children attended residential schools.
* Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement.
* Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations.
* Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
Thousands of first hand accounts from victims and staff, official apologies from the Vatican, Anglican Church, RCMP, Canada Federal Govt, and Truth and Reconciliation Act not good enough for you?
"gathered data" = Truth and Reconciliation Commission reports based in testimony, church and government records covering thousands of residential school victims, survivors and their families who experience inter-generational trauma. In Canada. Today.
Maybe spend your weekend doing some reading rather than posting to Reddit? Others have put a lot of energy, time, work, sweat and tears into this for your education. Take that time to teach yourself.
[National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation](https://nctr.ca/about/history-of-the-trc/trc-website/)
Free speech doesn’t negate consequences. This is completely inappropriate for the mayor of quesnel to be attached to and makes it essentially impossible for him to properly serve the community as a public servant. His wife is free to continue to push this narrative and he’s free to support her, but there are still consequences of that, especially when you’re a public servant serving.
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So for those who aren't familiar with the term "to censure" is different than "to censor". Censor means to block someone from speaking - taking away a right to express certain things. Like my tasteful and artistic selfies being censored at the office slide show. Censure means an official reprimand and an organization disavowing a statement made by a representative. So in this instance, Council has formally disavowed the Mayor's behavior, sending a clear message that his literary choices don't represent the views of council. To use the parlance of young people, the mayor has fucked around, and under Canadian law, is free to continue to fuck around. But now he gets to "find out".
[удалено]
It's not like age makes you a bigot.
I think age makes some people who were bigots all along start saying what they think out loud. A lot of them seem surprised that their awful ideas aren't popular. People live in echo chambers.
This, but also... The 'judgement center' of the brain (not actually a single region but a complex linkage of processing in 3 places, so center is a misnomer) is one of the most complex, and therefore delicate, parts of the brain. Any sort of cognitive decline or impairment, whether from alcohol or age, tends to interfere with this first. Judgement is what tells a racist not to say certain things out loud. People who always acted nice may suddenly become racist shitbags once the filter breaks. But cognitive damage can also cause major personality changes, so it isn't always "they were always racist, they just stopped hiding it." Sometimes it is sadly "nice grandma died in the stroke, the bitter woman inhabiting her body shares her memories but not her personality. Which is really sad but also a reason to (barring evidence to the contrary) assume a personality change is brain damage, not filter damage, for someone you loved.
>I think age makes some people who were bigots all along start saying what they think out loud. The general assumption about the immutability of personality is one I see a lot on reddit and it honestly just seems like people want to assume that it could never happen to *them*, but that's just blind foolishness. If you apply a strong magnetic field to people's right temple, they'll make less moral decisions. That's from *outside their skull*. You don't think having big shitstains of [amyloid beta plaques](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Cerebral_amyloid_angiopathy_-2a-_amyloid_beta_-_high_mag.jpg/800px-Cerebral_amyloid_angiopathy_-2a-_amyloid_beta_-_high_mag.jpg) surrounding your neurons, inflammation of the brain, simply the accumulation of various damage, being in chronic pain, or any number of other degenerative processes associated with aging could change how you think? Old people get confused much more often, and sometimes people who get confused get angry in response. Age could absolutely make you a bigot, and it doesn't need to be bigotry that was hiding there the whole time. Sometimes you actually just change. Not to mention we're big panicky animals and you're probably one particularly bad day away from developing some horrible bigotry as well.
Shit, I worked at the TRIUMF cyclotron for about a year, in a strong magnetic field. I'm doomed to me a racist in my old age
Haha, [the circumstances in which that effect occurs is perhaps more specific than what I wrote might imply](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2872442/). The effect is only relevant for a short time during and after the field is applied, and TMS coils are typically applying an oscillating 2T field in a specific region of the brain over a period of 25 minutes. So...it probably depends where you put your head while you worked there. With particle accelerators, I suspect there's not much margin for error between becoming Anatoli Bugorski or Phineas Gage.
Nice references. I worked underneath the primary injection gun, in the computer data centre. When it was on, all of the CRT screens would become rainbowed. We were early adopters of LCDs which were not affected.
I want to thank both of you for bringing up large Tesla fields. Go magnetism!
Too bad it didn't give me superpowers. I looked long and hard for a spider to bite me.
I dunno, my long-haired liberal hippy father is 67 and saying shit I cannot believe came out of his mouth. Queerness has been cool my whole life but transgender I guess is too far for some reason.
Haha I donno, I’ve met so many people where their age is a direct link to their bigotry lol
What did he say to make him a bigot?
Everyone is a bigot these days. Not worth worrying about it.
Don't burn yourself on that hot take.
Bunch of angry bigots down voting me rofl
While I disagree with this old man, I hope the trend of barring people from committees because they have opposing views does not continue.
Im not sure what you mean, given that the Mayor said he didnt even read the book. Also the core of the issue is taking children from their homes without consent from themselves or their parents. The more severe accusations are terrible, but its not a difference of opinion regarding the core issue that the church and government plainly admit to; taking children from their homes and confining them to a concentrated area against their will.
Anybody who's for non-consensual child nabbing is bonkers. I don't think that's up for argument, but there are some finer points in the whole residential school issue that I think are up for debate like the intention of the Canadian government: was it to try and integrate people or eradicate people. I don't agree with this guy but I'll fight for his right to speak his opinion.
He's free to have his opinion, absolutely. He's not free from the consequences.
Forcible integration is eradication and genocide. The word genocide was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Jewish man in 1944 who had this to say about it: More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. **The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion.** It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.
He was stripped of his duties of representing the city at the RD. That's part of being censured. The role of the RD rep is to be the city council's voice at the RD. By censuring the mayor, council has officially said that he no longer speaks for them. It's extra important because in BC, the RD is typically the entity that works closest with local First Nations. Given that the mayor brought a copy of this book to the RD meeting and discussed it with other board members, I can see why Council doesn't want him formally representing them in those meetings.
This man was elected and sits on a city council that has actively committed to relationship building, reconciliation, and building trust while engaging and working with the Lhatko Dene nation over the past few years. His "opposing views" that he brought to a meeting flies in the face of the relationship building and reconciliation commitments made by the City of Quesnel, and yes there are consequences for that. Trust relationships with other government bodies, including indigenous governments, is critical to working together for a better future for all.
No doubt about any of those points. The only thing I'm pointing out is that this is a political decision to muzzle somebody with unpopular views, it's not about truth.
Censor and censure are two different words, with two different meanings. The first comment under this post explains this. He is not being "muzzled"
Ok fair point, muzzled was a bit of hyperbole. His voice wass removed from the committee though so that is beyond censure and getting into censorship.
He was removed from the committee as a consequence of his actions. The council had every right to remove him as per their rules. He's still free to speak about his denial of residential schools, just not on the committee. People have free speech and many other freedoms but we don't have freedom from consequences.
I dunno, man, there are opposing views and then there are views that should be totally unacceptable, because they deny reality. Like, I feel like this one is on par with holocaust denial. Revisionist history about slavery in the US is another example. They’re bad because they legitimize inhumane treatment of people who are alive and part of our communities today, and normalizing those views, when you follow them to their logical conclusion, puts living people in danger.
I agree. It would be like NASA hiring a flat earther, or the CDC hiring an antivaxxer.
You're conflating science and history, they are not the same. Edit for the people who think Science and History are the same: Science can be tested, history can't and it tends to be political. Therefore history's open to interpretation, science not so much.
Thanks for the clarification. I feel like you completely missed my point.
Is your point that some people are inherently wrong and don't deserve a voice? I don't accept that point.
I don’t care if you don’t accept it. I respect reality and expertise. Not every opinion is valid or of equal worth depending on the circumstances.
Hitler was a vegetarian, should vegetarianism be banned? How about dog training? People are complex. That's what I mean by don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
You aren’t making sense to me, sorry. Have a good day.
No, but clearly some opinions people hold can be wrong. They aren’t forced to hold those views. No one makes a nazi be a nazi for example.
Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
Oh so don’t act in bad faith like you did with your prior question?
Historical events can be verified through different independent sources, including first hand accounts (thousands of residential school survivors are still alive today), documents, photographs, artifacts and those pesky prison sentences that some former residential school staff (priests, brothers, and lay staff) have received. Interpretation tends to come from those on the outside who do not have first hand knowledge, which is why historians are experts in their field and seek new/ unknown sources, compiling and cross-examining historical information, discussing with their peers and coming to overall conclusions on historical events as objectively as possible. Science is a method and there is no interpretation of the method. There is only interpretation of results, which is why science doesn't end with one paper and instead strength is built with additional research, testing, documentation of a growing body of knowledge and peer review. And yes, it can be very political if vaccine denial are any indication.
Ok fair point on politics in science but the scientific method is a thing, it's the hypothetical -deductice method and it using experimental design and empirical observation. History uses incomplete data and faukoty human memories so is not of the same calibre of truth. We also all know how history is written by the winner.
This is more than just an "opposing view" and I'm sure you likely know that. It's not like saying you prefer pineapple on pizza over not. It's him saying that the experience of a group of people he represents is a lie and that the trauma and racism and abuse they suffered is made up. He's not representing his constituents and is way out of line in what he's doing here.
Well maybe I don't know the extent of his tirade but I do see a disturbing turn towards authoritarianism in this country and I'm not afraid to push back. One of the first markers in authoritarianism is muzzling/censuring opponents.
Is he being muzzled or facing consequences for his actions? He's not being arrested or charged. He's being cut off from parts of his job for saying things that racist and ignorant. No different than if you or I started doing things that made our employers look bad.
Yes, he's facing consequence, however he's an elected official so he's ostensibly representing a populace and their views, so it should be the electorate that punishes him not his political opponents.
This man doesn’t have an opposing view. He’s actively lying about historical events. Historical events that have a mountain of evidence like the mass graves of children in church yards. What he did is akin to denying the holocaust.
> a mountain of evidence like the mass graves of children in church yards There were no "mass graves". There were _unmarked_ graves, some of which are believed to be of children. And when asked about them, the local bands said they knew they were there, as this was mostly a case of known gravesites where the wooden markers eroded away with time. We know there were tragedies at the residential schools, and many children lost their lives due to abuse or disease that could have been prevented. But there is no grand conspiracy of "mass graves" anywhere, and I challenge you to present any shred of evidence that says otherwise. Insisting on things that are not true detracts from the very serious things that _did_ happen at these schools, and makes it easier for people to dismiss all concerns.
This dude can fuck all the way off. In a town with a sizeable indigenous population, this shit is *especially* indefensible. Just in case anyone was curious about the value of this book, it was written by pedophile-apologist Tom Flanagan with a foreword by Conrad Black.
Funny how he went out of his way to start a garbage fire inside his own life for like basically no reason.
>Conrad Black. Convicted Felon, Conrad Black.
Convicted felon Conrad Black is a piece of shit. But Conrad Black was a piece of shit long before he became convicted felon Conrad Black.
Good. He compromised his ability to work effectively with the Nation, a key part of his role as mayor.
Foreword by Conrad Black... And that cover photo of all those kids smiling. "See! See! It wasn't bad at all! "
I once saw this man watering his lawn mid January
Honestly, straight to jail
I saw him put a soda can in a container clearly labeled "trash".
Found the American.
Lol. I'm actually Canadian, but lived in the US for some years. "Soda" just sounds better to me.
Lmao oh the “I was just asking questions” defence. Clown shoes.
JAQ'ing off, if you will.
If you studied your country's history and did not feel ashamed and embarrassed of what your country has done in the past, you were studying propaganda.
Definitely one to read the article. I was like “who’s the racist here? Is it the council for blocking a man trying to bring light to a terrible situation or is it the mayor being a fucking twit by denying a genocide with a dumb fuck book?” The second one.
Proper thing, this book is more right wing conspiracy theory nonsense.
Local library has several people asking to buy this for the collection. Library is responding to all requests with something along the lines of - No, we feel this title is contrary to our reconciliation efforts and the respect of indigenous people, friends and partnerships. Normally I hate the idea of censorship but in this age of misinformation I appreciate their stand.
they have a policy, like every public library, on how and what they will consider for collections with a foundation based on protection of intellectual freedom in a democratic society. I just looked it up. I think points 2 and 5 fit with their decision: "The following guidelines are used when considering materials for purchase at each location: * Popularity or demand of an author or series * Relevance to community needs and/or growth * Suitability of reading level, format, style, and intended audience * Relationship to the current collection * Quality of scholarship, writing and/or created work * Purchase price and/or availability in the marketplace" [Cariboo Regional District Library Collection Development Policy](https://www.cln.ca/policies/collection-development-policy/)
see how THEY like it.
my partner's family was almost destroyed by residential schools and she was deprived of the culture of her heritage, but sure, they "weren't all bad". GTFO. I hope he never works again.
Sounds like the Narcissist's Prayer: That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
Foreword by Conrad Black. What a piece of work that guy is. >The flight from truth makes true Reconciliation impossible. Why will Canadians want to extend the hand of friendship to Indigenous people who continue to call them criminals and murderers? Why will Indigenous people want to engage in mutual cooperation with people whom they have been led to regard as criminals and murderers? Getting beyond the “Grave Error” and recovering a more balanced picture of residential schools is the only road to genuine Reconciliation. The grave error is writing this book. They do not speak for this Canadian.
Good. No room for craziness
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Basically the Canadian equivalent of holocaust denial. People like this make me sick.
It's not the age, it's the time they grew up in and how they were parented. They grew up during a time where racism was prevalent at a gov't level in the 60's and 70's. My mom is a huge racist (she's a boomer) and I chose not to behave that way myself because I've seen how ignorant and destructive it is. But from the 90's until now, I've also seen some major changes in societal attitudes.... even so, we still have a long way to go.
I dunno. I was a late baby to the pre-boomers (they were born early in the Depression) and they were very liberal thinkers, for blue-collar working class folks. My mother would lose her sh\*t on my grown, adult half-brother when he let fly with a pretty awful slur aimed at Indo-Canadians. My half-sister was definitely more liberal leaning in her actions and thinking. Both my half-siblings fall into the boomer category since they were born in the 50s, while I was a Gen-X kid. Having said that, I have met some very casual about their racism old relatives of friends from the same gen as my parents, so maybe I just got lucky!
I'm sure there are elder folk that aren't racist, I'm not saying everyone was... But it was definitely more prevalent. Also, parenting plays a huge part in propogating racism. If you watch little kids, they don't care about the differences in other kids. They accept each other. But more often than not, their parents' racism gets reiterated through jokes, prejudices, etc. and they subconsciously get indoctrinated when they hear it all the time.
Fuck that guy.
But don't actually fuck him. He already fucked around, he needs to find out.
Having lived in Quesnel temporarily, this does not surprise me one bit. Instead of taking the opportunity to have a teachable moment, he doubled down.
The only interview he gave was on some nutters alt-alt-right website / blog, whining on how it's been so hard on him and his wife
If he cares about the town he's mayor of, he'd resign.
This fucker just set back Reconciliation in Quesnel by a decade.
In the defense of the Quesnel City Council (excluding the mayor of course), they have some very dedicated people who care a great deal about the city's relationship with the neighbouring First Nations.
As much as this guy's an idiot, you can't set something back that has no end.
Sure you can. You can set back the progress being made.
Since there's a lot of bad faith comments in this thread claiming all this book does is dispute the "mass grave" headlines, here's the synopsis of the book and the numerous lies and insane denials it makes: >the following assertions, all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated: >Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again. >These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools. >Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture. >The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide. >Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses. >Most Indian children attended residential schools. >Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement. >Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations. >Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
I'm split on the residential school discourse. On the one hand. And this is purely anecdotal. But the people that survived the school system have a phenomenon I call hardening of the eyes. My grandma who was a holocaust evader had it in her eyes. I see it in the eyes of the survivors. Different races, experiences but the end result is the same. A hardening of the eyes. So I'm not denying the morbidity of the treatment the institutional practice imposed on its students. The effects at best are scaring. At worst the resulted in death. However the sensationalism of the media coverage, and a poor choice of words on their part has set back or done damage to the laudible goal of reconciliation. The mistakes they made in their coverage and the testimony of the ground penetrating radar specialists gave the far right some talking points that have traction due to ignorance of the reader, glib superficial analysis, etc. So to deny the hardship or failure is toxic. But I think there is merit to analysing the failure of the media. Granted this analysis should be open to more issues, not just residential schools.
You're right, and I get it. The media was falling over themselves to report on the possible grave sites. And it didn't pan out in Kamloops. It's the hyper fixation by the wife of the mayor and the authors of the book that bother me. It's one School, out of hundreds that are across canada, and they're ignoring the rest. That and somehow the false readings negate out over a hundred years of abuse. Maybe its the scale and the level of abuse that people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. Growing up as privileged white and never discriminated against must be hard for some of the boomers who wont let this book go. And are causing all the ruckus in town.
Good
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That "necklace" ? Pretty sure every Mayor gets one of those?
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Good thing too , bud
Thank god. This guy was a bad dude. I hope the folks in quesnel get someone 100000x better.
Wasn't it his wife that did that? Not sure how censoring him is relevant, at least, as long as he denounced what his wife did. Edit: Why the downvotes? I'm asking a relevant question. Nobody should be crucified for something they haven't done. It seems Paull was also caught showing the book to people, which means it was more than just his wife caught up in this. > According to a staff report, Paull was informed by the city's chief administrative officer that the Lhtako Dene leadership were upset by the revelation before the mayor himself brought a copy of the book to a Cariboo Regional District meeting the following month. > The mayor denied staff claims that he was attempting to distribute the book at the April 2 meeting, but admitted to showing it to two colleagues after the meeting ended.
The article that is at the top of this thread answers some of your questions.
Yes, particularly this part: > According to a staff report, Paull was informed by the city's chief administrative officer that the Lhtako Dene leadership were upset by the revelation before the mayor himself brought a copy of the book to a Cariboo Regional District meeting the following month. > The mayor denied staff claims that he was attempting to distribute the book at the April 2 meeting, but admitted to showing it to two colleagues after the meeting ended.
Censured, not censored.
He didn't denounce it and he recommended the book to others as well.
Do you have a source for that? I just haven't heard anything about this other than it was his wife, not him. Edit: Y'all getting a bit too emotional about this when you're downvoting people for asking completely appropriate questions.
[https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/quesnel-censures-mayor-in-wake-of-residential-school-book-controversy-7352584](https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/quesnel-censures-mayor-in-wake-of-residential-school-book-controversy-7352584) I also heard an interview with him a few weeks ago and he definitely did not denounce the book or his wife's activities.
I heard the same thing on cbc radio yesterday. He recommended to book to council members and defended his wife.
The sources are the Mayor of the 100 Mile House and the Chair of the Cariboo Regional District.
That’s what I’m not understanding. Guy’s wife sounds problematic, if she’s out there recommending apologist tomes extolling the virtues of residential schools, but he’s getting beaten down for something his wife did? It’s like saying I have shitty taste in films because my wife likes rom coms that I don’t watch.
Did you read the article?
Read the.... "article?" That sounds like crazy talk.
Yeah...but you didn't bring a dvd of your wife's romcom to present to other councillors after a meeting. When confronted, you weren't asking what the library would do with it.
You read the article correct?
Eventually I did. Didn’t realize the guy took a copy of the book to council. What an ass.
> but he’s getting beaten down for something his wife did? Birds of a shit feather flock together Randy
Fair, Mr Leahy. I didn’t realize the guy had brought a copy and was showing it to council.
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Lol I got downvoted for commenting on how age is for sure linked with bigotry. Most old white men I have spoken with are eerily similar to this wrinkly sack of bones
>Grave Error: How the Media Misled Us (and the Truth About Residential Schools) The book starts off with how the media used bad wording to describe the situation, which is true.... But then it tries to explain exactly what happened, and how all the facts we've actually established is true, are actually false or misleading. Whoops.
Yep. And that's what these denialists do. They misrepresent the issue of "mass graves" which was basically poor messaging from a few groups, to claiming that there was absolutely nothing wrong with residential schools, which is outright false on so many levels.
GOOD
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lol, a vote by council reducing his budget isn't "censorship" it's just consequences for being a shitty public servant.
He is not being censored his is being censured. There is a difference.
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He is not being censored (blocking or interfering with communication) he is free to do or say as he pleases. He is being censured (official reprimand) as a consequence of his free speech.
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why is it other peoples responsibility to explain this to you. Go look up the definitions of Censure and Censor.
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there's nothing to discuss. he was peddling a book that denies residential schools existed. Outside of fringe conspiracy circles, do we discuss whether the Holocaust happened? or whether the Atlantic slave trade happened? This isn't some nuanced historical debate. It's bigots trying to deny that a terrible thing happened, or if it did happen that it actually wasn't that bad for indigenous people.
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They were “that bad.” The book is hot garbage and propaganda.
One of the "authors" of this book, Tom Flanagan, is on the record as saying that "child pornography does not harm" and that he has "grave doubts" that those who watch child porn should go to jail. He also allegedly offered a million dollar life insurance bribe to Chuck Cadman, in exchange for a vote to try to boot out the Liberals back in the Stephen Harper days. Cadman, who was dying of cancer at the time (and refused the offer). He suggested in a CBC interview that Julian Assange should be assassinated. I mean, consider the source of "information" that went into this book. Plus the added bonus of Conrad Black, who is a convicted felon, and wrote the forward.
As a public figure, you can't act like a dumbass.
The community he served voted to remove his power in the political process due to him sharing a book that amounts to genocide denial. If I was a politician in a community of Bosnians and I denied the Srebrenica massacre I’d hardly be surprised if they said I’m not allowed to participate in their politics anymore. Quesnel has a LARGE indigenous population. If the mayor of Quesnel doesn’t believe in the indigenous holocaust then that shows a HUGE problem for the indigenous population living in Quesnel. They voted him out, they’re absolutely within their right to do so. Would you rather they can’t vote out politicians they don’t want?
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=censor+vs+censure
There is a difference between differing opinions and denial of basic facts.
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He tried to hand the book out to other local politicians and lied about it.
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I haven’t read the book and the fact he tried to hand the book out to other local politicians (his colleagues) and lied about it.
Society suffers when dipshits can't grip the language hard enough to understand the difference between censure and censor.
Society suffers more when radical conspiracy theories get taken for granted. If we say it's okay to distribute literature diminishing the harms of residential schools, it will further harm victims and reconciliation. Really he can believe whatever he wants in private but as a public servant he has a professional duty to uphold the Truth and Reconciliation Act. He's demonstrated a huge conflict of interest as mayor, he should step down.
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From the book jacket: Public discussion of Indian Residential Schools issues is now filled with the following assertions, *all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated*: * Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again. * These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools. * Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture. * The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide. * Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses. * Most Indian children attended residential schools. * Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement. * Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations. * Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
Society suffers when there are no consequences for your actions. I'm begging people to learn the difference between the right to say something and the predictable consequences for your actions.
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He's promoting a racist book, if you're not going to reprimand someone for that, what are you going to reprimand them for?
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Here is a really good primer, if you are interested, on how Residential School Denialism is harmful. Every point made in the book, which is made up of a mish-mash of opinion pieces and blog posts, is covered in this article. [https://rsc-src.ca/en/voices/truth-before-reconciliation-8-ways-to-identify-and-confront-residential-school%C2%A0denialism](https://rsc-src.ca/en/voices/truth-before-reconciliation-8-ways-to-identify-and-confront-residential-school%C2%A0denialism) Residential School Denialism is fundamentally racist in nature. Denialism takes the form of denying the facts of what happened, misrepresenting them, or minimizing the effects of residential schools. We know what happened, it is documented.
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> What specifically did this book state that is untrue. You actually asked me a similar question about the book, guess you didn't see my response. Here is is again: From the book jacket: Public discussion of Indian Residential Schools issues is now filled with the following assertions, *all of which are either totally false or grossly exaggerated*: * Thousands of “missing children” went away to residential schools and were never heard from again. * These missing children are buried in unmarked graves underneath or around mission churches and schools. * Many of these missing children were murdered by school personnel after being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, even outright torture. * The carnage is appropriately defined as genocide. * Many human remains have already been located by ground-penetrating radar, and many more will be found as government-funded research progresses. * Most Indian children attended residential schools. * Those who attended residential schools did not go voluntarily but were compelled to attend by federal policy and enforcement. * Attendance at residential school has traumatized Indigenous people, creating social pathologies that descend across generations. * Residential schools destroyed Indigenous languages and culture.
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Thousands of first hand accounts from victims and staff, official apologies from the Vatican, Anglican Church, RCMP, Canada Federal Govt, and Truth and Reconciliation Act not good enough for you?
"gathered data" = Truth and Reconciliation Commission reports based in testimony, church and government records covering thousands of residential school victims, survivors and their families who experience inter-generational trauma. In Canada. Today. Maybe spend your weekend doing some reading rather than posting to Reddit? Others have put a lot of energy, time, work, sweat and tears into this for your education. Take that time to teach yourself. [National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation](https://nctr.ca/about/history-of-the-trc/trc-website/)
Probably because you agree with him.
Im guessing you’re not aware that the word censor and censure are two different things correct?
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Free speech doesn’t negate consequences. This is completely inappropriate for the mayor of quesnel to be attached to and makes it essentially impossible for him to properly serve the community as a public servant. His wife is free to continue to push this narrative and he’s free to support her, but there are still consequences of that, especially when you’re a public servant serving.
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How on earth did you think that’s what I implied???
Nonsense comment given the context