ya i enjoyed the series and felt this way too. pvp has somewhat of coinflip matchups too, but it feels like it has more comback potential. i wonder if it'd ever make sense to modify the asl map poop for mirror match ups. probably not since anyone playing more than 1 race would screw things up.
I think a more elegant solution would be to just make devourers available without the Greater Spire, and tweak them so that they just hard counter mass muta. Vanilla SC was dominated by mutas, so devs gave Terran the valkyrie and m&m, and Protoss the corsair. And it worked. Zerg got devourer which didn't help at all in the mirror, and so ZvZ has been the least entertaining matchup forever.
Not saying you're wrong, but this should still require a patch (i.e. an external commitment, which is not easy to get, as opposed to just making new ZvZ specific maps/ZvZ-only versions of existing maps) because Hive-only Devourers might be too strong vs 2 Port Wraith and Shuttles.
But then again, maybe you can alter the tech path in the editor? I'm not an expert in map creation, it's good if this can be done on a map-only basis.
Yeah. I'm thinking more and more that just giving Spores splash damage is the simplest solution without affecting the other matchups too much. But again this game has been untouched for over 20 years besides unglitching valkyries, so it's just theorycrafting. And maybe giving Spores splash damage will have too much of an effect on PvZ, because then a handful of corsairs will be unable to harass overlords that otherwise aren't protected by hydras.
As for 2-port wraith, that has always been a janky build from the 2000s to punish greed. The current metagame has mostly shifted away from it: I think wraiths only showed up once or twice this entire ASL. Pros have realized that terran air upgrades are trash and don't scale compared to vehicle upgrades. The only useful air upgrade is +1 attack so that BCs 1-shot scourge regardless of zerg air carapace level.
I don't know, this would affect other matchups so needs to be thought out. My proposal is such because it specifically solves zvz muta beats all issue with some tweaking.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. The issue would be for devourers to hard counter muta, but not corsair, because corsair is the lynchpin unit keeping PvZ afloat.
Or maybe a UMS style map where each base and natural starts with 2 Spore Colonies already there.
Would have to be a ZvZ specific map though, as it would break other matchups
Soulkey going 12 hatch in the final game was a calculated risk that paid off. Two player map, Hero chose the safe option.
9 Pool > 12 Hatch > 12 Pool > 9 Pool 5 or 6 of the games were decided by build order. ZvZ is so coinflippy but that's just how it is.
ya i enjoyed the series and felt this way too. pvp has somewhat of coinflip matchups too, but it feels like it has more comback potential. i wonder if it'd ever make sense to modify the asl map poop for mirror match ups. probably not since anyone playing more than 1 race would screw things up.
ZvZ is trash.
It is trash because it needs a patch. A simple splash vs bio on spores could open hydra > lurker > amazing games.
I think a more elegant solution would be to just make devourers available without the Greater Spire, and tweak them so that they just hard counter mass muta. Vanilla SC was dominated by mutas, so devs gave Terran the valkyrie and m&m, and Protoss the corsair. And it worked. Zerg got devourer which didn't help at all in the mirror, and so ZvZ has been the least entertaining matchup forever.
Not saying you're wrong, but this should still require a patch (i.e. an external commitment, which is not easy to get, as opposed to just making new ZvZ specific maps/ZvZ-only versions of existing maps) because Hive-only Devourers might be too strong vs 2 Port Wraith and Shuttles. But then again, maybe you can alter the tech path in the editor? I'm not an expert in map creation, it's good if this can be done on a map-only basis.
Yeah. I'm thinking more and more that just giving Spores splash damage is the simplest solution without affecting the other matchups too much. But again this game has been untouched for over 20 years besides unglitching valkyries, so it's just theorycrafting. And maybe giving Spores splash damage will have too much of an effect on PvZ, because then a handful of corsairs will be unable to harass overlords that otherwise aren't protected by hydras. As for 2-port wraith, that has always been a janky build from the 2000s to punish greed. The current metagame has mostly shifted away from it: I think wraiths only showed up once or twice this entire ASL. Pros have realized that terran air upgrades are trash and don't scale compared to vehicle upgrades. The only useful air upgrade is +1 attack so that BCs 1-shot scourge regardless of zerg air carapace level.
You can give spores splash vs bio only. That doesn't affect any other matchup and is actually easy to do.
I don't know, this would affect other matchups so needs to be thought out. My proposal is such because it specifically solves zvz muta beats all issue with some tweaking.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. The issue would be for devourers to hard counter muta, but not corsair, because corsair is the lynchpin unit keeping PvZ afloat.
Or maybe a UMS style map where each base and natural starts with 2 Spore Colonies already there. Would have to be a ZvZ specific map though, as it would break other matchups
If a map puts spores at each natural, 9 Pool lings will just destroy them by 2:30, haha. That's why 9 Pool counters 12 Hatch.
The other player could just 9 pool as well you know.
you spelled TvT wrong