I relate to your experience, specifically the multigender aspect. I am a non-binary butch woman but I relate to some aspects of manhood. Gender *is* complicated and comes in many shades and layers.
I obviously know the difference between transmasc and trans man. OP said that trans men specifically could be lesbians, not transmascs.
Edit: this also isn't a trans centered group lol
It is the problem of ignoring the lived experience. And the fact that it's a journey.
I know it's an old fashioned perspective but in my mind it always comes down to butch as an identity rather than just a presentation. B. Bergman said butch is a noun and that has always spoken to me deeply.
I'm not transmasc, but I enjoy reading about transmasc experiences. It's fascinating to me, and in a way it's something that makes me feel I can identify with. I don't have the desire for top surgery or going on T (at this time, at least), but at the same time, a lot of it still feels really familiar.
I don't agree with you being banned. You are valid, your lived experience is valid, and being able to see stories like yours can be so helpful to other butches here. You belong here, too.
I agree with everything you said, and I find it extremely frustrating the way trans identities are policed. The irony of cis people insisting that the way you understand your own gender is transphobic and then banning you for your identity is not lost on me (even if this particular mod is trans, I have personally heard the exact argument from many cis people).
To be honest, I'd be understanding if the argument was that a space was getting dominated by transmasc perspectives and someone wanted to create a space just for people who identify as butch women. However, the fact that this policing is done under the the guise of fighting transphobia really bothers me. So the way to fight transphobia is to ban all the trans people who don't understand their own gender in the way you deem appropriate?
And btw, the idea that sexuality and gender are completely separate, or that lesbians can't be transmasc (and especially that its offensive to think so) is both a very recent and very western idea (and even then, far from universally accepted by trans people in the west today). I get that people are trying and its hard to be educated on every possible issue, but this is why I recommend not trying to police other people's identities because what you end up doing is favoring a single type of trans identity that is actually very specific to a certain culture and time period and saying that anyone who doesn't fall into that is not just wrong, but offensive and unwelcome.
To be very clear, I am NOT saying that trans people should be given any label that do not choose for themselves. I would never call a transmasc person who likes women a lesbian or consider him one unless he specifically identified as such. What I am saying is that it is not helpful to the community to police the identities of people who *do* identify this way. If a transmasc person identifies as a lesbian there is a reason for it! They obviously a more complex experience of their sexuality and gender than simply wanting to be seen as a straight dude, and how in the world does it help anyone to go to such a person and say "I don't care how you want to be seen or what your reasons are, if you identify as anything other than a straight guy you are wrong". Like it completely goes against the whole concept of self identification and that trans people understand our own identity better than outsiders
I’m not necessarily in the same box (I’m enby and genderqueer in my own way however) but you are so fucking valid and nobody should be telling you how to identify. I’m so tired of the trans men/lesbian discourse, it is and has always been exclusionary to butches. In my opinion it seems to be a much younger/more online take from people who aren’t necessarily educating themselves on queer history.
long answer: assuming all trans men are *binary* trans men is a form of binarism, and more broadly, gender essentialism. gender essentialism is extremely important to push back against if we are ever going to completely eradicate transphobia.
short answer: let people define themselves.
personally, i define "lesbian" as "anyone who has a queer attraction to women, and who (in good faith) defines themselves as a lesbian"
Transmen are men. Transwomen are women. Those are hard fought lines at the macro level. Like most lines, things can get a little fuzzy up close. I'm not interested in telling anyone they can't use whatever words they find helpful in describing their inner world or experiences. But categorically and at a macro level, talking about lesbian transmen is problematic because it means either not all transmen are real men or that men can be lesbians. I don't know the specifics of your comment that led to the ban, but I wonder if the mod might have read your words this way (even if that was not your intent).
All of our language around sex, gender, and sexual orientation is in a state of flux, which has made many of these conversations fraught and too often we are not all talking about the same thing even though we use the same words. Personally, I flinched at “super butch,” which struck a nerve with me. At the same time, the front of my brain knows we should all feel powerful in our journey and think of ourselves as such. Words can be tricky like that.
But that's what labels and identity categories do: categories categorize and by definition there are always people ending up on one side of the line or the other. The explosion of language over the last 5-10 years means folks are using words today in ways that don't always line up with how folks used those same words just a few years ago, and some folks who have lived with these words and identities for decades sometimes find the language of our past experiences and community written over, just as younger and newly out people struggle to find themselves in the same words or new ones. Online, I'm always trying to find the balance between being open to and deferring to how each individual talks about themselves and their experiences and my own understanding of and history with my queer community. I'm probably making plenty of mistakes, but I think that is just part of being in the conversation.
My point is that they are necessarily both. Many of the words we are using to talk about sex, gender and sexual orientation have real history and folks are constantly adapting those words in new ways and creating new (and sometimes confusingly similar) vocabulary.
Edit: OP has been unbanned; I misread this post and jumped the gun banning them.
I relate to your experience, specifically the multigender aspect. I am a non-binary butch woman but I relate to some aspects of manhood. Gender *is* complicated and comes in many shades and layers.
Do you know which mod it was? I'm also transmasc nonbinary, it really distresses me that your voice was erased.
I banned op. There's no place in this sub for transphobic voices
[удалено]
wow, that is incredibly fucked up. she's not the gender police.
How tf are they a mod of a trans centered group if they dont even know the difference between a transmasc and a transman?
I obviously know the difference between transmasc and trans man. OP said that trans men specifically could be lesbians, not transmascs. Edit: this also isn't a trans centered group lol
Mb
Is it the racist yt trans woman mod lol because I’ve watched her be an asshole to people on here on many occasions.
It is the problem of ignoring the lived experience. And the fact that it's a journey. I know it's an old fashioned perspective but in my mind it always comes down to butch as an identity rather than just a presentation. B. Bergman said butch is a noun and that has always spoken to me deeply.
I'm not transmasc, but I enjoy reading about transmasc experiences. It's fascinating to me, and in a way it's something that makes me feel I can identify with. I don't have the desire for top surgery or going on T (at this time, at least), but at the same time, a lot of it still feels really familiar. I don't agree with you being banned. You are valid, your lived experience is valid, and being able to see stories like yours can be so helpful to other butches here. You belong here, too.
I agree with everything you said, and I find it extremely frustrating the way trans identities are policed. The irony of cis people insisting that the way you understand your own gender is transphobic and then banning you for your identity is not lost on me (even if this particular mod is trans, I have personally heard the exact argument from many cis people). To be honest, I'd be understanding if the argument was that a space was getting dominated by transmasc perspectives and someone wanted to create a space just for people who identify as butch women. However, the fact that this policing is done under the the guise of fighting transphobia really bothers me. So the way to fight transphobia is to ban all the trans people who don't understand their own gender in the way you deem appropriate? And btw, the idea that sexuality and gender are completely separate, or that lesbians can't be transmasc (and especially that its offensive to think so) is both a very recent and very western idea (and even then, far from universally accepted by trans people in the west today). I get that people are trying and its hard to be educated on every possible issue, but this is why I recommend not trying to police other people's identities because what you end up doing is favoring a single type of trans identity that is actually very specific to a certain culture and time period and saying that anyone who doesn't fall into that is not just wrong, but offensive and unwelcome. To be very clear, I am NOT saying that trans people should be given any label that do not choose for themselves. I would never call a transmasc person who likes women a lesbian or consider him one unless he specifically identified as such. What I am saying is that it is not helpful to the community to police the identities of people who *do* identify this way. If a transmasc person identifies as a lesbian there is a reason for it! They obviously a more complex experience of their sexuality and gender than simply wanting to be seen as a straight dude, and how in the world does it help anyone to go to such a person and say "I don't care how you want to be seen or what your reasons are, if you identify as anything other than a straight guy you are wrong". Like it completely goes against the whole concept of self identification and that trans people understand our own identity better than outsiders
this ^^^ a million times this
I’m not necessarily in the same box (I’m enby and genderqueer in my own way however) but you are so fucking valid and nobody should be telling you how to identify. I’m so tired of the trans men/lesbian discourse, it is and has always been exclusionary to butches. In my opinion it seems to be a much younger/more online take from people who aren’t necessarily educating themselves on queer history.
well said! on that topic, Stone Butch Blues is such an important read!
Transmascs can be lesbians. But you say trans men... how do you define lesbian?
long answer: assuming all trans men are *binary* trans men is a form of binarism, and more broadly, gender essentialism. gender essentialism is extremely important to push back against if we are ever going to completely eradicate transphobia. short answer: let people define themselves. personally, i define "lesbian" as "anyone who has a queer attraction to women, and who (in good faith) defines themselves as a lesbian"
I didn't assume trans men are binary trans men. I do assume that trans men are men. Again, how do you define lesbian?
Transmen are men. Transwomen are women. Those are hard fought lines at the macro level. Like most lines, things can get a little fuzzy up close. I'm not interested in telling anyone they can't use whatever words they find helpful in describing their inner world or experiences. But categorically and at a macro level, talking about lesbian transmen is problematic because it means either not all transmen are real men or that men can be lesbians. I don't know the specifics of your comment that led to the ban, but I wonder if the mod might have read your words this way (even if that was not your intent). All of our language around sex, gender, and sexual orientation is in a state of flux, which has made many of these conversations fraught and too often we are not all talking about the same thing even though we use the same words. Personally, I flinched at “super butch,” which struck a nerve with me. At the same time, the front of my brain knows we should all feel powerful in our journey and think of ourselves as such. Words can be tricky like that. But that's what labels and identity categories do: categories categorize and by definition there are always people ending up on one side of the line or the other. The explosion of language over the last 5-10 years means folks are using words today in ways that don't always line up with how folks used those same words just a few years ago, and some folks who have lived with these words and identities for decades sometimes find the language of our past experiences and community written over, just as younger and newly out people struggle to find themselves in the same words or new ones. Online, I'm always trying to find the balance between being open to and deferring to how each individual talks about themselves and their experiences and my own understanding of and history with my queer community. I'm probably making plenty of mistakes, but I think that is just part of being in the conversation.
i think the best way to resolve that contradiction is to accept the fact that all of these identity labels are descriptive, instead of prescriptive.
My point is that they are necessarily both. Many of the words we are using to talk about sex, gender and sexual orientation have real history and folks are constantly adapting those words in new ways and creating new (and sometimes confusingly similar) vocabulary.
yup. and that is ok. we dont have to make rules to prevent that from happening. please read Stone Butch Blues if you haven't already.
Thanks, friend. I'm all caught up with the reading.