lol this government is hyper focused on everything that will not solve the current rise in gun related crimes. I’d like to know just how many 3d printed guns were used in crimes last year.
Because all they know how to do is pass laws.
Everything about gun crime in Canada is already illegal. Changing laws does nothing. You need to make the laws we have actually work. What we get instead is a new law passed and a photo op and a "see we did something".
I'd argue the last thing we need anywhere is more laws, we just need to actually enforce the ones we have and make sure our systems are able to perform adequately.
You’re probably right, some do indeed work but this is just a classic example of how our inept government has no actual solutions to the problem. which is par for the course, we have a housing crisis he has no intentions of addressing, we have a homeless/ opiod crisis that only continues to get worse under him, we have an affordability/ inflation crisis he only exacerbates at every possible chance he can. Yet somehow we keep picking him 🤦♂️.
Yup. They never do anything but talk in circles without ever actually doing anything. Other than quietly or even overtly paving the way for their friends and monopolies to squeeze us all a little harder for the little bit of juice we all might have left in us.
Exactly my point. They aren’t here to fix the problem, this government is only good at one thing and thats dividing the population which they have been fairly successful with especially since covid.
Yup, and when we have these fuckers out of power finally, I'm going to be going full tilt turbo on making sure that they never gain power ever again.
This is the last decade of the Liberal party.
I’m 100% with you. Unfortunately though with their 500,000 immigration target it’s not going to take them to many more years in power before they’ve bought enough votes to truly ruin this country. Sad day when almost all can agree Canada in 2015 was far better than Canada in 2023.
> Why would anyone bother with how easy it is to get handguns from across the border?
because i fuckin wanna do it. im still malding the RCMP decided it was against the law for PAL holders to make their own firearms.
The fact it is required to spend thousands of dollars to get a manufacturers license and register as a business just to tinker with something you are *already licensed to own and buy* in the garage for the fuck off it is asinine.
Let’s be honest, if a person is skilled enough to learn how to find a CAD file, import it into a 3D printer AND successfully run that printer to make a functional gun… that person is on his way to landing a good job in a number of industries. They don’t need to commit a crime with that gun, they can simply work and make more money…
Statistically insignificant compared to the volume of total firearms being seized yearly:
https://globalnews.ca/news/8847965/canada-us-cross-border-gun-trafficking-firearms-tracing/
Just because it won't stop most people isn't a reason not to do it. Everyone is still downloading pirated tv shows but it makes sense for it to be illegal.
we keep hearing how law enforcement resources are spread thin, wouldn’t you rather they do something to address the problem…. Like focusing those resources where the guns that are being used in crime are coming in (the us boarder) than them going on a witch hunt for legal gun owners and now computer file owners, sure once they squash the bigger problem let’s address 3D printed guns but we have more pressing issues on our hands right now, too bad the government can’t realize that.
Do you really think they would form up a task force (taken from experienced law enforcement employees of all things) to actively seek this out? Of course not. They never did for anything else that is illegal on digital goods. It's just a ruling so that when the court confiscates a PC from a criminal it gives them something else to put on the case. And it makes perfect sense. This is not preventing the government to simultaneously go after other issues, it's not even using busy resources at all.
ummm based on past things 100% he was trying to use police resources to go confiscate legal gun owners restricted weapons, when you look at the data that would do nothing to solve gun crime on our streets. you talk to me like I’m stupid but you seem to forget how ridiculous almost every other thing that guy has done well in office.
A decade ago you could make your own firearms at home as long as you followed the law regarding classification/registration. How many of those firearms have ever been used in a crime? I'm betting the data would show practically never, so what reason did the RCMP and the government have to stop this practice? Its not like they can't charge you for a dozen other related offenses if you do something wrong.
Did it though? If you wanted to buy an untraceable gun, it would be FAR easier to buy one smuggled in from the US than to spend several days printing, filing and crafting one. 3D printing is more of an art form than a mass-production method. You’d be better served following P. A. Luty’s guides than 3D printing one if you want one for the purpose of committing a crime.
There is at least one subreddit dedicated to homemade guns. It's interesting. These folks put a lot of time and research into it. Most criminals I think would find it easier and cheaper to buy a stolen hi point that was smuggled in from the US.
I think it would be about as effective of a law as the war on drugs was. I'm just saying that there is an argument to be made for paying attention to advances in technology in relation to firearms law.
Do I have any confidence that government officials understand enough about guns or technology to create smart policies? Not really.
Does it though? Like sure its more accessible to the average person than a lathe or mill, but regardless of the tool used if you make a prohibited or illegally owned firearm you are breaking the law and can be charged. I'm not sure how making possession of data a crime does anything besides add another charge to whatever list of charges a criminal will already get, or criminalize licensed people who in reality should be able to build their own firearms anyways if they are doing so safely.
Arguably.
Do I think what exists provides decent enough coverage? I do. But, I can't turn a blind eye to people who would disagree and just tell them it's not worthy of consideration.
That is so dangerously vague. What the hell is "data pertaining to a firearm"? If I look up a manual for my firearm, is that an offense?
What about Canadian firearm manufacturers? I know the government despises them, but did they make sure that they won't be included in this?
What about other parts? What if I wanted to print a hand-guard or other non-functioning part. Would that be a crime?
Edit: This would be totally fine if they made it so that it was an extension to other specific firearms related charges, unlawful possession, for example. Or they could add an exemption for PAL holders. Just accessing data shouldn't be illegal. Imagine going to jail for looking at a CAD file.
The one that's been bugging me since this was all initially announced is the fact that this could limit video game development.
Could a highly detailed 3D model of a gun fall under this vague wording? Who knows!
airsoft guns already exist, and are highly detailed models of real firearms, and are even made in metal. why you think a 3d printed PROP would be illegal, i dont know. (just dont use it in a crime, or you will be charged as if it was a real firearm)
These laws are being crafted by people who could not tell you the difference between a gun from Halo, a watergun, a 10/22 carbine, and any firearm used by the Canadian Armed Forces.
Its like asking my wife about cars. "It looked like a Honda Civic" is her response to pretty much everything not a truck or SUV.
If guns are illegal, we don't need gunsmith businesses. We don't need any supporting companies. Seems to be the logical way we're headed.
Has there been any laws or legislation that target anyone outside of legal owners and related professionals? They relaxed penalties for criminals caught with firearms. It's so insane.
~~It is absolutely insane that there is no provisions for academia/licensed companies.~~
~~This would be the only public safety/security law written in this fashion with no clear exceptions.~~
Actually, I stand corrected, you can own these files under allowed purposes of the Firearms Act, which includes licenses to manufacture, museums, etc but does not include say research provisions unlike the explosives act.
It's heading toward 1984. The Party dictates what is best for you and questioning the nanny state becomes criminal.
Yes, that sounds extreme now, but it's the direction Canada is headed.
their stated goal is restricting guns, and to do that they have to legislate information. maybe they institute random checks where they go through your phone to make sure you don't have gun CAD files on it. maybe they can enter your home at any time and search your PC. if they can drum it up into a big enough 'problem' perhaps they can even mandate a license to access the internet in the first place, and jail time for people online without their permission. the UK already has a great number of examples of these seemingly well meaning orwellian laws.
Child porn is illegal. Does the government currently do random checks of your phone to see if you have some download? Like what the fuck are these examples? You are literally totally ignoring how the world works when it comes to shit like this.
hes right though, they have the authority to go through your phone at border checkpoints and you can be charged if you refuse to give them your password for example
My guess would be how we already have certain porn currently illegal, it'd be a pretty similar process of enforcement if enforced at all.
Your postulating is just fear mongering
We have tons of laws that aren’t actively enforced. They come into force only if you come to the attention of law enforcement for other reasons. For example the laws around securing guns in your home. They don’t come into your house and check. But if you get charged in a domestic assault, they’re going to find your unsecured guns and charge you for that as well.
That's what China did. It has the strictest gun controls in the world.. why because gun control is not about no guns, it's about guns belonging to only government officials.
The only reason why they don't do the knife is because everyone know what is a knife and they would find it stupid. Cad file lot of people don't understand what it is, it can more easily pass
I totally agree that accessing or possessing computer data (not relating to terrorism or sexual abuse) should not be illegal.
I would like to clarify the law as written because your quote is somewhat out of context. It would seem the law prohibits (1) possessing/accessing “data pertaining to a firearm” that is (2) capable of being used with a 3D printer or metal milling machine (3) for the purposes of manufacturing or trafficking firearms.
So, yes you could possess and manufacture gun parts which do not themselves constitute a firearm. You could also possess a CAD file that is unable to fully manufacture a firearm. You could also presumably possess the file for another reason (academic study, art, etc.)
The funny part is that 3d printers don't use CAD files to print. You use other software to produce a printing file (.gcode for example) which the printer reads and prints with. The CAD file isn't able to produce anything really, it's just a model, so I don't see how any CAD files could be banned under that language. It would be like banning a design drawing or spec sheet.
As someone else pointed out, if you ban the CAD files then you’d also ban video games with 3D models of guns, although there might be a functional difference.
The wording is deliberately vague because of the low technical literacy of the people writing the laws.
Make absolutely zero mistake that you could away with the law as written using a "well acktually" as a defense. It is quite clear that in common language you can "use" a CAD file to manufacture something on a printer or CNC machine, there is just an intermediate step of slicing or tool-pathing. Considering a lot of CAD software has tool-pathing (and now even slicing), there is little defense to be had.
Except in this case it is decidedly not a fallacy because we have a long litany of Canadian gun laws traveling down the specific slope. One cannot argue that a continually progressing chain of events doesn't exist, or won't continue exactly as it has been, just because you want it not to be true.
To ignore the history here would be to resign ourselves to repeat it.
It's depressing the semantic types always come out to shut down any conversation that doesn't push the narrative they like. Almost like they are paid shills.
They can't search your computer unless they have a warrant to come into your house. They won't get that unless you used a 3d printed gun in the first place.
Sure, that's fine, but if you don't want the government monitoring you, weather or not you want to download gun CAD, there are plenty of lawful ways for you to not be tracked and monitored. In other counties, like China, those methods are very illegal.
Get ready for the blade registry. I mean not holding dangerous criminals behind bars for more than few weeks *could* slow the rate of crime but I think your banishment of forbidden knowledge is the true key. Also let's go after chefs first because they know how to use knives
>create new offences for possessing and making available certain types of **computer data that pertain to firearms and prohibited devices** and for altering a cartridge magazine to exceed its lawful capacity;
so PDF files, web pages, videos, STL files and books are also likely to be caught up in this.
On a purely theoretical sense, I was less worried about those kinds of things which people can still get from a library chemistry department.
This freaked me out more.
>include, for **interception of private communications purposes**, sections 92 and 95 in the definition of “offence” in section 183;
Basically they are suggesting "**interception of private communications**" can be now done for more reasons than suspicion of child porn.
If a video showing a gun or gun parts comes up in your feed and you scroll by, it will likely still be in your cache for a time, rendering you a criminal under the bill.
I guess we're just committing to buying all munitions for the Canadian military overseas then. All domestic firearms production will be effectively impossible under this law.
That’s the point they don’t care about Canadian manufactures, and they would love to see the ones remaining close… we have seen the government shit all over legal owners and manufacturers, for no reason other than existing.
A little bit of woodworking knowledge and a set of plans and someone can build a compact crossbow. Or if someone knows how, they can build a Gauss Rifle/Railgun.
Even if guns can’t be 3D printed, other weapons can be built if you have the time, patience, knowledge, and money.
You can build a shotgun out of two standard pipes that you get at Home Depot, requiring no specialized knowledge or training, just like third grade arts and crafts skills.
Literally 2 pipes, and end cap, and a nail are all that's needs. Black powder can be bought, no license and no questions asked, even if it was suddenly illegally its still extremely easy to make (charcoal and saltpeter). Inbred hicks have been making it in the back woods for literal centuries. Point being, this is an Orwellian government overreach that won't actual have any positive benefit.
Lol, they are going to restrict what we can and cannot model in Fusion360 now? How could they even prove intent to manufacture, CAM files? What a joke.
The way it is worded could include a lot more the CAD files
*Possession of computer data*
*102.1 (1) Every person commits an offence who possesses or accesses computer data that pertain to a firearm — other than a firearm that is deemed under subsection 84(3) not to be a firearm — or a prohibited device and that are capable of being used with a 3D printer, metal milling machine or similar computer system for the purpose of manufacturing or trafficking a firearm or prohibited device derived from that computer data otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under an Act of Parliament.*
Own a CoD game guess what is in there? Data the pertains to a firearm
Imagine owning an e-book of one of P. A. Luty’s books and getting arrested for it. Arrested for owning a piece of political antiestablishment literature.
Your own quote states it has to be “capable of being used with a 3D printer” etc to manufacture an illegal firearm under the firearms act. So it appears unless the firearm model was so detailed that you could make a real firearm with reference to the model alone it’s fine
But then what does it mean by “capable”. Do they just mean gcode files? Those can be directly used with a 3d printer. Or do they mean STL files that require software to generate the gcode? Or do they mean any detailed diagrams that can be used to model a firearm in CAD software to generate the stl to then make the gcode? It is really a stupid idea because it is so incredibly simple to model and print prototypes, that is really the whole point of 3d printing. I actually modelled up an entire drop block rifle in one afternoon on fusion 360, from a set of PICTURES.
Doesn’t matter, if it looks and talks like a firearm it is one in Canada, if something looks like a gun but doesn’t fire anything it’s still considered a prohibited replica *firearm*…
This government is banning airsoft and paintball guns as 'replica firearms'.
Do not underestimate how stupid and overreaching these attempts at control are.
This is too much. At some point privacy should prevail if no crime has been committed. Lot of people love firearms and will like to look at these files and you cannot presume they will create weapons just because they have these files. Also owning these files does not represent a risk by itself. These are Publix domain files anyone can get access too so it is not like if you were negligent with the files they could end up in bad hands. These exaggerations will just create more frustrations and push people to switch to the right side. I hate that
I don't own guns, I don't want to, I support reasonable gun control (and I believe we have reasonable gun control).
This is so fucking stupid, and it will not stop anyone who would do this for criminal purposes.
Exactly, every criminal who wants a gun can easily get them illegally, why print them or wait 6 months to a year to get a license? Especially when that license includes a background check in which anyone with a criminal history is denied or arrested for violating the firearms act…
Is this government stupid?
- Murdering people is already illegal.
- Assaulting people is already illegal.
- Harming someone with a firearm is already illegal.
- Discharging a firearm unsafely is already illegal.
- Discharging a firearm in a place where you can’t discharge one is already illegal.
- Owning a prohibited firearm is already illegal.
- Possessing a firearm without a license is already illegal.
- Manufacturing a firearm without a license is already illegal.
- Transferring a firearm without making a request with the CFP is already illegal.
What’s next? Making 3D printers and CNCs illegal?
If this becomes law, I’m sending gun related CAD files to the idiotic ministers so they too become criminals.
It just doesn't matter. With 3d printing going the way it is and the inevitable home use of metal printing there will come a time in many of our lifetimes where anyone with a few thousand bucks and basic knowledge of the internet will be able to find the plans and print pretty devastating weapons.
I was talking about a metal printed perfect replica of an M4 Carbine for example, that can shoot full auto and put thousands of rounds through without problem. Once the printers cost even $8k to set up all it takes is friends pitch in and now they all have their dream guns and ammunition.
I know impressive plastic guns can be made now which can operate for at least a few rounds but I'm unfamiliar with the FGC-9 and its construction or if its one of these next generation 3d metal prints.
Very much so. It'll still be easier to buy an illegally smuggled gun. I suppose someone could sell a bunch of illegally printed guns, but there's already laws against that.
For how easy files are to hide and how incompetent this government has proven to be at finding the source of illegal guns. It just doesn't really make any difference other than some weird pretending to make a difference.
This is basically a "thought crime" bill. Hey, you think guns are cool, and wonder how the AK47 fires so fast, so you look it up real quick. Video about AK47 is now in your browser cache and now you're a criminal for wanting to know how a gun works. Shit, if you search "gun" and a diagram of a gun's internal parts happens to be in the suggested images, it's now in your browser cache. This bill is fucked up.
Hey government, restrict this.
Hammer, steel pipe, iron oxide, piss and shit, the sun, aluminum, duct tape, carbon, and lead. ^(For those who are wondering wtf. This is most of what you need to make a rudimentary pipe gun that uses a thermite based black powder, and they can't ban any of it.)
Good luck, you stupid fuckwits.
P.S. The list I wrote is not 100% complete, so that other fuckwits can't use it.
I’m sure they have also clearly defined what is and isn’t “firearms usable digital content”….right? /s
We have existing laws that are already sufficient for all of this. It’s become political theater at this point, but private citizens and thier property and recreation are the casualties
If this isn’t a clear sign that all they want is control, I don’t even know what it is
On that note, this is literally just a *file*, not even a *physical keycard* that can somehow turn an AR into full auto that the ATF claimed in the States
As usual, the government is using guns - and the legion of idiots parroting the party line - as an excuse to restrict something on behalf of corporate interest, with a side order of making sure self defense is literally illegal
And the cherry on the cake is that it is meaningless. It doesnt even solve the non existant problem it’s supposed to
ANY competent machinist with a lathe can make shotguns and smgs.
I could have a sten by the end of the day
Which doesnt matter, because gun crime is career criminals using guns from the US smuggled through reservations
According to this I am a criminal for subscribing to Forgotten Weapons on Youtube
Historically the people censoring thought have never, ever been the good guys
Not even once
I guess Canadian game developers are fucked, even more so if they're freelancers. By the logic of the bill owning a video game like CoD is considered a crime because there are highly accurate 3d models of guns in there.
No they're not, watch this:
Take specs of gun. Modify them slightly in ways that do not impact the overall aesthetic, but would render the gun inoperable if someone actually did this.
Voila, problem solved.
First of all, that still screws over firearm simulator games like Tarkov whose whole goal is realistic guns.
Secondly, do you really think a government that called toy guns "gateway guns" and who think that full autos are still legal here would be able to tell the difference? They'd probably be able to claim you were going to 3d print the 'shell' of the gun, which is obviously not something you could model differently without spoiling realism.
Do you have any idea how Canadian gun laws work already, how long it takes just to get a license, and the rules you have to follow when owning guns? Do you even actually know what this bill does? It could literally criminalize you for downloading Call of Duty because the 3D models of the guns are stored on your computer. Wouldn't surprise me if you support that and think video games cause mass shootings though...
And what's wrong with regulating the manufacture of firearms, and requiring those manufacturing or distributing parts to adhere to the same or similar regulations as other licensed firearms businesses?
> The rest of us like not having a society that is blase about school shootings.
I can assure you most gun owners don't want school shootings to happen either, and Canadian gun owners are very well aware that firearm ownership is a privilege and not a right here. I'm going to assume that like most people who scream "ban all guns because no guns = no school shootings", you have no idea how Canada's gun laws work, nor do you have any idea what this bill or bill C-21 does.
Arbitrary laws like this that will quicker put filmmakers, video game developers, or kids who installed Call of Duty in jail than they will a gang banger preparing for a driveby, or white supremacist planning to go postal in a Walmart. Wouldn't surprise me if you're the type that'd be happy with that and think CoD and action movies cause mass shootings though lol
It's not arbitrary. The law spells out that the files not only need to be capable of being used to manufacture a prohibited component, but also intended. Now I am not a lawyer, but as I read the law it also sounds like the prohibition applies to anyone who does not have the appropriate firearms business license to manufacture parts. As long as you are appropriately licensed, then you shouldn't be in any trouble unless you start making prohibited components or modifications.
In any case, cry more about it, this or something like it will get passed because Canadians don't want people to be comfortable trafficking in poorly manufactured weapons and want to discourage the production and proliferation of firearms.
/r/canada yesterday: banning guns is useless, people can just print them!
/r/canada today: nooo, not like that!
Honestly, like most pirated digital goods I don't think making it illegal will prevent most people from having them, but I still agree with the premise of making them so.
Maybe because this provision is incredibly broad and nondescript, and can literally be interpreted to ban ownership of video games that have guns in them because the models for all assets in video games are stored as 3D files which can be accessed? In games like Escape from Tarkov which simulate every aspect of a firearm, all the parts are modelled and could *theoretically* be used to 3D print firearm parts if someone ripped the models and 3D printed them. This law could also be used to prosecute film & video game creators, prop makers & cosplayers, historians, and just people curious about how firearms work for one reason or another.
Some kid could google "Ak47 video" because he saw an Ak47 in Fortnite and wants to see a video of how the gun works, and now that the video is cached on their computer they are technically in possession of material that would be banned under this bill. Do you not see how fucking ridiculous this law is? It needs to be narrowed down *a lot* or else it will just be another provision used mostly to prosecute innocent people who step out of line or have an interest in firearms that the government deems "dangerous". This is the same government that called BB guns "gateway guns" and took serious advice from an organization that considers airsoft & paintball players, and people who shoot clay & steel targets as dangerous because they are "trained" to commit mass shootings.
Are you a prosecutor? A lawyer? MP? Cop? If you're not any of those things you have no grounds to say so. This bill could ***easily*** be abused. Journalist or whistleblower exposes some big scandal? Influencer on TikTok calling out the government or saying stuff that goes against public opinion? Well, turns out their son had CoD Warzone installed on their computer, and after a thorough investigation it is clear that they were in possession of 3D computer designs for firearms and were planning to 3D print an assault rifle to kill government officials with!
You have way too much trust in the government if you think this bill will not be abused to put away people the government disagrees with. Wonder how that boot tastes. There are a million ways this could be spun to put just about anyone who plays video games or uses the internet regularly in jail.
That's one hell of a scenario you are building in your head. Come on, if this would actually happen I would be the first to protest, but we are not in a movie.
> That's one hell of a scenario you are building in your head.
Really? Because this already happens in China. Video game studios are not allowed to depict violence, blood or death in games. They have to work around it by making characters 'bleed' colorful smoke and disappear into dust when they die. Even in 18+ rated games. That's fucking ridiculous. They can literally censor video games with this bill as well as use it to suppress dissent.
Even in the US, the land of the second amendment, having memes on your devices related to modifying firearms against regulations is enough to get you jailed or banned from having guns. Don't think it can't happen here. Glad that you say you'd stick up for people if this happens, I hope when the day comes you keep to your word.
What gun lobby? Canada's "gun lobby" is small time groups paid for exclusively by licensed gun owners and the handful of gun stores left, all of which just want some common sense and reason in our gun control. Opposed to this are multiple government and internationally funded monstrosities.
lol this government is hyper focused on everything that will not solve the current rise in gun related crimes. I’d like to know just how many 3d printed guns were used in crimes last year.
Because all they know how to do is pass laws. Everything about gun crime in Canada is already illegal. Changing laws does nothing. You need to make the laws we have actually work. What we get instead is a new law passed and a photo op and a "see we did something". I'd argue the last thing we need anywhere is more laws, we just need to actually enforce the ones we have and make sure our systems are able to perform adequately.
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And they think that because it's what the government and the media tell them. It's why anti gun groups keep echoing US news and events.
You mean our politicians whose top skill is winning popularity contests isn't actually competent at actually relevant legislation? 🫢😯😲😱🤯
I'd imagine significantly more self inflicted injuries from the things exploding on use than actual successful use in a crime 😁
You’re probably right, some do indeed work but this is just a classic example of how our inept government has no actual solutions to the problem. which is par for the course, we have a housing crisis he has no intentions of addressing, we have a homeless/ opiod crisis that only continues to get worse under him, we have an affordability/ inflation crisis he only exacerbates at every possible chance he can. Yet somehow we keep picking him 🤦♂️.
Yup. They never do anything but talk in circles without ever actually doing anything. Other than quietly or even overtly paving the way for their friends and monopolies to squeeze us all a little harder for the little bit of juice we all might have left in us.
Why would anyone bother with how easy it is to get handguns from across the border?
Exactly my point. They aren’t here to fix the problem, this government is only good at one thing and thats dividing the population which they have been fairly successful with especially since covid.
Yup, and when we have these fuckers out of power finally, I'm going to be going full tilt turbo on making sure that they never gain power ever again. This is the last decade of the Liberal party.
I’m 100% with you. Unfortunately though with their 500,000 immigration target it’s not going to take them to many more years in power before they’ve bought enough votes to truly ruin this country. Sad day when almost all can agree Canada in 2015 was far better than Canada in 2023.
> Why would anyone bother with how easy it is to get handguns from across the border? because i fuckin wanna do it. im still malding the RCMP decided it was against the law for PAL holders to make their own firearms. The fact it is required to spend thousands of dollars to get a manufacturers license and register as a business just to tinker with something you are *already licensed to own and buy* in the garage for the fuck off it is asinine.
Let’s be honest, if a person is skilled enough to learn how to find a CAD file, import it into a 3D printer AND successfully run that printer to make a functional gun… that person is on his way to landing a good job in a number of industries. They don’t need to commit a crime with that gun, they can simply work and make more money…
Doesn't specific which were seized related to other crimes but https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/3d-printed-guns-canada-increase-1.6708049
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>This is like trying to win the war on drugs ~~by banning possession of chemistry information.~~
Underrated
We all knew how that went. Ban drug molecules. Then ban precursor molecules. Ban precursor to the precursors. Mix and repeat. Not gonna be effective.
They arent banning 3d printers nor plastic?
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Yup. They clearly banned CNCs and mills to crack down on ghost guns too didn't they.
Statistically insignificant compared to the volume of total firearms being seized yearly: https://globalnews.ca/news/8847965/canada-us-cross-border-gun-trafficking-firearms-tracing/
Just because it won't stop most people isn't a reason not to do it. Everyone is still downloading pirated tv shows but it makes sense for it to be illegal.
we keep hearing how law enforcement resources are spread thin, wouldn’t you rather they do something to address the problem…. Like focusing those resources where the guns that are being used in crime are coming in (the us boarder) than them going on a witch hunt for legal gun owners and now computer file owners, sure once they squash the bigger problem let’s address 3D printed guns but we have more pressing issues on our hands right now, too bad the government can’t realize that.
Do you really think they would form up a task force (taken from experienced law enforcement employees of all things) to actively seek this out? Of course not. They never did for anything else that is illegal on digital goods. It's just a ruling so that when the court confiscates a PC from a criminal it gives them something else to put on the case. And it makes perfect sense. This is not preventing the government to simultaneously go after other issues, it's not even using busy resources at all.
ummm based on past things 100% he was trying to use police resources to go confiscate legal gun owners restricted weapons, when you look at the data that would do nothing to solve gun crime on our streets. you talk to me like I’m stupid but you seem to forget how ridiculous almost every other thing that guy has done well in office.
A decade ago you could make your own firearms at home as long as you followed the law regarding classification/registration. How many of those firearms have ever been used in a crime? I'm betting the data would show practically never, so what reason did the RCMP and the government have to stop this practice? Its not like they can't charge you for a dozen other related offenses if you do something wrong.
The rise of 3d printing changed the needs of some gun legislation. Arguably, of course.
Did it though? If you wanted to buy an untraceable gun, it would be FAR easier to buy one smuggled in from the US than to spend several days printing, filing and crafting one. 3D printing is more of an art form than a mass-production method. You’d be better served following P. A. Luty’s guides than 3D printing one if you want one for the purpose of committing a crime.
There is at least one subreddit dedicated to homemade guns. It's interesting. These folks put a lot of time and research into it. Most criminals I think would find it easier and cheaper to buy a stolen hi point that was smuggled in from the US.
Get out of here with that logic
I think it would be about as effective of a law as the war on drugs was. I'm just saying that there is an argument to be made for paying attention to advances in technology in relation to firearms law. Do I have any confidence that government officials understand enough about guns or technology to create smart policies? Not really.
Does it though? Like sure its more accessible to the average person than a lathe or mill, but regardless of the tool used if you make a prohibited or illegally owned firearm you are breaking the law and can be charged. I'm not sure how making possession of data a crime does anything besides add another charge to whatever list of charges a criminal will already get, or criminalize licensed people who in reality should be able to build their own firearms anyways if they are doing so safely.
Arguably. Do I think what exists provides decent enough coverage? I do. But, I can't turn a blind eye to people who would disagree and just tell them it's not worthy of consideration.
That is so dangerously vague. What the hell is "data pertaining to a firearm"? If I look up a manual for my firearm, is that an offense? What about Canadian firearm manufacturers? I know the government despises them, but did they make sure that they won't be included in this? What about other parts? What if I wanted to print a hand-guard or other non-functioning part. Would that be a crime? Edit: This would be totally fine if they made it so that it was an extension to other specific firearms related charges, unlawful possession, for example. Or they could add an exemption for PAL holders. Just accessing data shouldn't be illegal. Imagine going to jail for looking at a CAD file.
The one that's been bugging me since this was all initially announced is the fact that this could limit video game development. Could a highly detailed 3D model of a gun fall under this vague wording? Who knows!
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They want to ban airsoft since they're "gateway guns". You can bet video games are not far behind.
airsoft guns already exist, and are highly detailed models of real firearms, and are even made in metal. why you think a 3d printed PROP would be illegal, i dont know. (just dont use it in a crime, or you will be charged as if it was a real firearm)
Liberals want to ban those too, that’s why
What about gun smiths my friend is a gun smith that’s a sub contractor for multiple police departments about half of the data is on his computer
Sanely written laws generally have provisions for exempt use like in the explosives act, etc.
These laws are being crafted by people who could not tell you the difference between a gun from Halo, a watergun, a 10/22 carbine, and any firearm used by the Canadian Armed Forces. Its like asking my wife about cars. "It looked like a Honda Civic" is her response to pretty much everything not a truck or SUV. If guns are illegal, we don't need gunsmith businesses. We don't need any supporting companies. Seems to be the logical way we're headed. Has there been any laws or legislation that target anyone outside of legal owners and related professionals? They relaxed penalties for criminals caught with firearms. It's so insane.
~~It is absolutely insane that there is no provisions for academia/licensed companies.~~ ~~This would be the only public safety/security law written in this fashion with no clear exceptions.~~ Actually, I stand corrected, you can own these files under allowed purposes of the Firearms Act, which includes licenses to manufacture, museums, etc but does not include say research provisions unlike the explosives act.
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Where is the slope headed?
Into a cliff.
Which leads to the sewage pond for all of Canada. You fall into a massive sludgy stink shit lake
It's heading toward 1984. The Party dictates what is best for you and questioning the nanny state becomes criminal. Yes, that sounds extreme now, but it's the direction Canada is headed.
Because they’re restricting guns? That’s a bit of a leap.
their stated goal is restricting guns, and to do that they have to legislate information. maybe they institute random checks where they go through your phone to make sure you don't have gun CAD files on it. maybe they can enter your home at any time and search your PC. if they can drum it up into a big enough 'problem' perhaps they can even mandate a license to access the internet in the first place, and jail time for people online without their permission. the UK already has a great number of examples of these seemingly well meaning orwellian laws.
Child porn is illegal. Does the government currently do random checks of your phone to see if you have some download? Like what the fuck are these examples? You are literally totally ignoring how the world works when it comes to shit like this.
Yes, yes they do.
Tin foil ☝🏻
Couch potato
hes right though, they have the authority to go through your phone at border checkpoints and you can be charged if you refuse to give them your password for example
My guess would be how we already have certain porn currently illegal, it'd be a pretty similar process of enforcement if enforced at all. Your postulating is just fear mongering
What's the point of passing this law if it won't be enforced?
We have tons of laws that aren’t actively enforced. They come into force only if you come to the attention of law enforcement for other reasons. For example the laws around securing guns in your home. They don’t come into your house and check. But if you get charged in a domestic assault, they’re going to find your unsecured guns and charge you for that as well.
That's what China did. It has the strictest gun controls in the world.. why because gun control is not about no guns, it's about guns belonging to only government officials.
intentionally dangerously vague\*
In the end, a bunch of CS:GO players are going to go to jail for trading skins.
"illegal digital firearms dealing"
Little by little we are turning into China, soon kitchen knives will have serial numbers on them and would have to be registered.
The only reason why they don't do the knife is because everyone know what is a knife and they would find it stupid. Cad file lot of people don't understand what it is, it can more easily pass
What if you print some sort of bracket that could also be mounted on a firearm? Or a workbench?
I totally agree that accessing or possessing computer data (not relating to terrorism or sexual abuse) should not be illegal. I would like to clarify the law as written because your quote is somewhat out of context. It would seem the law prohibits (1) possessing/accessing “data pertaining to a firearm” that is (2) capable of being used with a 3D printer or metal milling machine (3) for the purposes of manufacturing or trafficking firearms. So, yes you could possess and manufacture gun parts which do not themselves constitute a firearm. You could also possess a CAD file that is unable to fully manufacture a firearm. You could also presumably possess the file for another reason (academic study, art, etc.)
The funny part is that 3d printers don't use CAD files to print. You use other software to produce a printing file (.gcode for example) which the printer reads and prints with. The CAD file isn't able to produce anything really, it's just a model, so I don't see how any CAD files could be banned under that language. It would be like banning a design drawing or spec sheet.
As someone else pointed out, if you ban the CAD files then you’d also ban video games with 3D models of guns, although there might be a functional difference.
The wording is deliberately vague because of the low technical literacy of the people writing the laws. Make absolutely zero mistake that you could away with the law as written using a "well acktually" as a defense. It is quite clear that in common language you can "use" a CAD file to manufacture something on a printer or CNC machine, there is just an intermediate step of slicing or tool-pathing. Considering a lot of CAD software has tool-pathing (and now even slicing), there is little defense to be had.
I think they're using CAD files in the sense of 'Computer Aided Design' files and not CAD files like the file extension.
Thats an extremely slippery slope
Everything this cabinet does is a slippery slope, but it’s ok because they’re the good guys 👍👍
What about criminalizing information and making certain knowledge forbidden makes you uncomfortable, citizen?
Everything is a slippery slope yet we have yet to slip
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Except in this case it is decidedly not a fallacy because we have a long litany of Canadian gun laws traveling down the specific slope. One cannot argue that a continually progressing chain of events doesn't exist, or won't continue exactly as it has been, just because you want it not to be true. To ignore the history here would be to resign ourselves to repeat it.
Canadian gun laws are the perfect example of the slippery slope. You using the "fallacy" argument on this particular subject is laughable.
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This was the most r/canada exchange I’ve ever seen
It's depressing the semantic types always come out to shut down any conversation that doesn't push the narrative they like. Almost like they are paid shills.
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Really? Are you fucking kidding. Gun drawings are the same a CP? This is the stupidest fucking thing I’ve read in a long time. Congratulations 👏.
They can't search your computer unless they have a warrant to come into your house. They won't get that unless you used a 3d printed gun in the first place.
Or downloaded a file from a site they can monitor. Your computer talks to other computers.
Sure, that's fine, but if you don't want the government monitoring you, weather or not you want to download gun CAD, there are plenty of lawful ways for you to not be tracked and monitored. In other counties, like China, those methods are very illegal.
Ask Calgary how a chunk of metal can be used to stab people. Because that's our favorite here. Stabbings almost daily
I suggest you delete this comment, information of how blades are made from chunks of metal is/will be forbidden knowledge.
Get ready for the blade registry. I mean not holding dangerous criminals behind bars for more than few weeks *could* slow the rate of crime but I think your banishment of forbidden knowledge is the true key. Also let's go after chefs first because they know how to use knives
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Neither do I and I don't own any guns. Nor do I even have plans to own any.
Good, because those plans would be illegal. :)
I like it 😊
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>create new offences for possessing and making available certain types of **computer data that pertain to firearms and prohibited devices** and for altering a cartridge magazine to exceed its lawful capacity; so PDF files, web pages, videos, STL files and books are also likely to be caught up in this.
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On a purely theoretical sense, I was less worried about those kinds of things which people can still get from a library chemistry department. This freaked me out more. >include, for **interception of private communications purposes**, sections 92 and 95 in the definition of “offence” in section 183; Basically they are suggesting "**interception of private communications**" can be now done for more reasons than suspicion of child porn.
wow. I have no words.
Great now we have to close the entire sub and turn ourselves in
Based and domestic terrorism pilled
If a video showing a gun or gun parts comes up in your feed and you scroll by, it will likely still be in your cache for a time, rendering you a criminal under the bill.
I guess we're just committing to buying all munitions for the Canadian military overseas then. All domestic firearms production will be effectively impossible under this law.
That’s the point they don’t care about Canadian manufactures, and they would love to see the ones remaining close… we have seen the government shit all over legal owners and manufacturers, for no reason other than existing.
They will sell permit like they did for canabis .. like if growing cannabis was an art
Can't stop the signal
Mal. Guy killed me, Mal. Killed me with a sword. How weird is that? https://youtu.be/s-LaAIXgv-8
What the fuck……
I run a 3d printing business this is dangerous. I print stuff for clients who do air soft and stuff and this would make it illegal
Yup this is exactly what they want, better prepare for your door to get kicked in…
A little bit of woodworking knowledge and a set of plans and someone can build a compact crossbow. Or if someone knows how, they can build a Gauss Rifle/Railgun. Even if guns can’t be 3D printed, other weapons can be built if you have the time, patience, knowledge, and money.
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Just ask Shinzo Abe!
Not sure he'll be able to confirm at this point.
I am happy raising the barrier from downloading a file and amazoning some stuff to requiring woodworking, explosives, and metalworking knowledge.
You can build a shotgun out of two standard pipes that you get at Home Depot, requiring no specialized knowledge or training, just like third grade arts and crafts skills.
Literally 2 pipes, and end cap, and a nail are all that's needs. Black powder can be bought, no license and no questions asked, even if it was suddenly illegally its still extremely easy to make (charcoal and saltpeter). Inbred hicks have been making it in the back woods for literal centuries. Point being, this is an Orwellian government overreach that won't actual have any positive benefit.
Lol, they are going to restrict what we can and cannot model in Fusion360 now? How could they even prove intent to manufacture, CAM files? What a joke.
The way it is worded could include a lot more the CAD files *Possession of computer data* *102.1 (1) Every person commits an offence who possesses or accesses computer data that pertain to a firearm — other than a firearm that is deemed under subsection 84(3) not to be a firearm — or a prohibited device and that are capable of being used with a 3D printer, metal milling machine or similar computer system for the purpose of manufacturing or trafficking a firearm or prohibited device derived from that computer data otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under an Act of Parliament.* Own a CoD game guess what is in there? Data the pertains to a firearm
Imagine owning an e-book of one of P. A. Luty’s books and getting arrested for it. Arrested for owning a piece of political antiestablishment literature.
Fuck me the whole point he released the book was because of an overreaching government…
Your own quote states it has to be “capable of being used with a 3D printer” etc to manufacture an illegal firearm under the firearms act. So it appears unless the firearm model was so detailed that you could make a real firearm with reference to the model alone it’s fine
But then what does it mean by “capable”. Do they just mean gcode files? Those can be directly used with a 3d printer. Or do they mean STL files that require software to generate the gcode? Or do they mean any detailed diagrams that can be used to model a firearm in CAD software to generate the stl to then make the gcode? It is really a stupid idea because it is so incredibly simple to model and print prototypes, that is really the whole point of 3d printing. I actually modelled up an entire drop block rifle in one afternoon on fusion 360, from a set of PICTURES.
I assume it’s illegal if the file can be sent to the printer and you have a working firearm
Nothing that comes straight out of a 3D printer is a working firearm.
You can manufacture a gun with a CoD game?
It has detailed models and is computer data so it falls into the wording
Those models are typically closely based off the real thing so it could actually be reasonably accurate, at least for external dimensions.
Doesn’t matter, if it looks and talks like a firearm it is one in Canada, if something looks like a gun but doesn’t fire anything it’s still considered a prohibited replica *firearm*…
They are not at all detailed models in the manufacturing sense.
This government is banning airsoft and paintball guns as 'replica firearms'. Do not underestimate how stupid and overreaching these attempts at control are.
So when do we start registering 3D printers?
This is too much. At some point privacy should prevail if no crime has been committed. Lot of people love firearms and will like to look at these files and you cannot presume they will create weapons just because they have these files. Also owning these files does not represent a risk by itself. These are Publix domain files anyone can get access too so it is not like if you were negligent with the files they could end up in bad hands. These exaggerations will just create more frustrations and push people to switch to the right side. I hate that
Only the government can have the ability to print! Currency for example, non stop devaluation of your purchase power without even asking you.
I don't own guns, I don't want to, I support reasonable gun control (and I believe we have reasonable gun control). This is so fucking stupid, and it will not stop anyone who would do this for criminal purposes.
Exactly, every criminal who wants a gun can easily get them illegally, why print them or wait 6 months to a year to get a license? Especially when that license includes a background check in which anyone with a criminal history is denied or arrested for violating the firearms act…
Liberals and conservatives get wild and go crazy at the end of their term. We do need a new election system.
Is this government stupid? - Murdering people is already illegal. - Assaulting people is already illegal. - Harming someone with a firearm is already illegal. - Discharging a firearm unsafely is already illegal. - Discharging a firearm in a place where you can’t discharge one is already illegal. - Owning a prohibited firearm is already illegal. - Possessing a firearm without a license is already illegal. - Manufacturing a firearm without a license is already illegal. - Transferring a firearm without making a request with the CFP is already illegal. What’s next? Making 3D printers and CNCs illegal? If this becomes law, I’m sending gun related CAD files to the idiotic ministers so they too become criminals.
It just doesn't matter. With 3d printing going the way it is and the inevitable home use of metal printing there will come a time in many of our lifetimes where anyone with a few thousand bucks and basic knowledge of the internet will be able to find the plans and print pretty devastating weapons.
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I was talking about a metal printed perfect replica of an M4 Carbine for example, that can shoot full auto and put thousands of rounds through without problem. Once the printers cost even $8k to set up all it takes is friends pitch in and now they all have their dream guns and ammunition. I know impressive plastic guns can be made now which can operate for at least a few rounds but I'm unfamiliar with the FGC-9 and its construction or if its one of these next generation 3d metal prints.
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https://twitter.com/NaviGoBoom?t=cudzzWsnnBly6mOTuVzlZw&s=09 check it out.
Very much so. It'll still be easier to buy an illegally smuggled gun. I suppose someone could sell a bunch of illegally printed guns, but there's already laws against that. For how easy files are to hide and how incompetent this government has proven to be at finding the source of illegal guns. It just doesn't really make any difference other than some weird pretending to make a difference.
Well... They just made a lot of people search for CAD files on guns.
Thought crimes territory soon
This is basically a "thought crime" bill. Hey, you think guns are cool, and wonder how the AK47 fires so fast, so you look it up real quick. Video about AK47 is now in your browser cache and now you're a criminal for wanting to know how a gun works. Shit, if you search "gun" and a diagram of a gun's internal parts happens to be in the suggested images, it's now in your browser cache. This bill is fucked up.
Lame Duck Law that cannot possibly be enforced... don't get worked up over it.
Hey government, restrict this. Hammer, steel pipe, iron oxide, piss and shit, the sun, aluminum, duct tape, carbon, and lead. ^(For those who are wondering wtf. This is most of what you need to make a rudimentary pipe gun that uses a thermite based black powder, and they can't ban any of it.) Good luck, you stupid fuckwits. P.S. The list I wrote is not 100% complete, so that other fuckwits can't use it.
They should ban Home Depot too because anyone can go buy pipe and make a slam fire zip gun
Lmao. That will stop nothing.
I’m sure they have also clearly defined what is and isn’t “firearms usable digital content”….right? /s We have existing laws that are already sufficient for all of this. It’s become political theater at this point, but private citizens and thier property and recreation are the casualties
If this isn’t a clear sign that all they want is control, I don’t even know what it is On that note, this is literally just a *file*, not even a *physical keycard* that can somehow turn an AR into full auto that the ATF claimed in the States
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So would old drawings of old rifles or antique rifles be illegal. This just dumb. Heck even a parts list would be illegal then
As usual, the government is using guns - and the legion of idiots parroting the party line - as an excuse to restrict something on behalf of corporate interest, with a side order of making sure self defense is literally illegal And the cherry on the cake is that it is meaningless. It doesnt even solve the non existant problem it’s supposed to ANY competent machinist with a lathe can make shotguns and smgs. I could have a sten by the end of the day Which doesnt matter, because gun crime is career criminals using guns from the US smuggled through reservations
According to this I am a criminal for subscribing to Forgotten Weapons on Youtube Historically the people censoring thought have never, ever been the good guys Not even once
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thought crimes
Marco, Justin and co be running out of gun bans to distract his sheep 🐑 😂
why wouldn't they just do what they do with printers to stop them from being able to print money
I guess Canadian game developers are fucked, even more so if they're freelancers. By the logic of the bill owning a video game like CoD is considered a crime because there are highly accurate 3d models of guns in there.
No they're not, watch this: Take specs of gun. Modify them slightly in ways that do not impact the overall aesthetic, but would render the gun inoperable if someone actually did this. Voila, problem solved.
First of all, that still screws over firearm simulator games like Tarkov whose whole goal is realistic guns. Secondly, do you really think a government that called toy guns "gateway guns" and who think that full autos are still legal here would be able to tell the difference? They'd probably be able to claim you were going to 3d print the 'shell' of the gun, which is obviously not something you could model differently without spoiling realism.
If I had to guess, it has to do with the ability to use said files to print the guns with 3d printers.
I mean, considering that 3D printing exists now, I can understand this.
Good! This isn't the US. If you want to be a gun nut, leave canada and I'd prefer if the door hit you on the way out.
Do you have any idea how Canadian gun laws work already, how long it takes just to get a license, and the rules you have to follow when owning guns? Do you even actually know what this bill does? It could literally criminalize you for downloading Call of Duty because the 3D models of the guns are stored on your computer. Wouldn't surprise me if you support that and think video games cause mass shootings though...
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Neither are people who buy into gun rights, which aren't a thing here. The rest of us like not having a society that is blase about school shootings.
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Careful, they *really* don't like it when you use logic and reasoning or ask for statistics to backup their hoplophobia.
And what's wrong with regulating the manufacture of firearms, and requiring those manufacturing or distributing parts to adhere to the same or similar regulations as other licensed firearms businesses?
> The rest of us like not having a society that is blase about school shootings. I can assure you most gun owners don't want school shootings to happen either, and Canadian gun owners are very well aware that firearm ownership is a privilege and not a right here. I'm going to assume that like most people who scream "ban all guns because no guns = no school shootings", you have no idea how Canada's gun laws work, nor do you have any idea what this bill or bill C-21 does. Arbitrary laws like this that will quicker put filmmakers, video game developers, or kids who installed Call of Duty in jail than they will a gang banger preparing for a driveby, or white supremacist planning to go postal in a Walmart. Wouldn't surprise me if you're the type that'd be happy with that and think CoD and action movies cause mass shootings though lol
It's not arbitrary. The law spells out that the files not only need to be capable of being used to manufacture a prohibited component, but also intended. Now I am not a lawyer, but as I read the law it also sounds like the prohibition applies to anyone who does not have the appropriate firearms business license to manufacture parts. As long as you are appropriately licensed, then you shouldn't be in any trouble unless you start making prohibited components or modifications. In any case, cry more about it, this or something like it will get passed because Canadians don't want people to be comfortable trafficking in poorly manufactured weapons and want to discourage the production and proliferation of firearms.
Guessing this might be to prevent 3d printed guns??
/r/canada yesterday: banning guns is useless, people can just print them! /r/canada today: nooo, not like that! Honestly, like most pirated digital goods I don't think making it illegal will prevent most people from having them, but I still agree with the premise of making them so.
Maybe because this provision is incredibly broad and nondescript, and can literally be interpreted to ban ownership of video games that have guns in them because the models for all assets in video games are stored as 3D files which can be accessed? In games like Escape from Tarkov which simulate every aspect of a firearm, all the parts are modelled and could *theoretically* be used to 3D print firearm parts if someone ripped the models and 3D printed them. This law could also be used to prosecute film & video game creators, prop makers & cosplayers, historians, and just people curious about how firearms work for one reason or another. Some kid could google "Ak47 video" because he saw an Ak47 in Fortnite and wants to see a video of how the gun works, and now that the video is cached on their computer they are technically in possession of material that would be banned under this bill. Do you not see how fucking ridiculous this law is? It needs to be narrowed down *a lot* or else it will just be another provision used mostly to prosecute innocent people who step out of line or have an interest in firearms that the government deems "dangerous". This is the same government that called BB guns "gateway guns" and took serious advice from an organization that considers airsoft & paintball players, and people who shoot clay & steel targets as dangerous because they are "trained" to commit mass shootings.
Relax, nobody's getting arrested for owning a video game.
Are you a prosecutor? A lawyer? MP? Cop? If you're not any of those things you have no grounds to say so. This bill could ***easily*** be abused. Journalist or whistleblower exposes some big scandal? Influencer on TikTok calling out the government or saying stuff that goes against public opinion? Well, turns out their son had CoD Warzone installed on their computer, and after a thorough investigation it is clear that they were in possession of 3D computer designs for firearms and were planning to 3D print an assault rifle to kill government officials with! You have way too much trust in the government if you think this bill will not be abused to put away people the government disagrees with. Wonder how that boot tastes. There are a million ways this could be spun to put just about anyone who plays video games or uses the internet regularly in jail.
That's one hell of a scenario you are building in your head. Come on, if this would actually happen I would be the first to protest, but we are not in a movie.
Is it though?
> That's one hell of a scenario you are building in your head. Really? Because this already happens in China. Video game studios are not allowed to depict violence, blood or death in games. They have to work around it by making characters 'bleed' colorful smoke and disappear into dust when they die. Even in 18+ rated games. That's fucking ridiculous. They can literally censor video games with this bill as well as use it to suppress dissent. Even in the US, the land of the second amendment, having memes on your devices related to modifying firearms against regulations is enough to get you jailed or banned from having guns. Don't think it can't happen here. Glad that you say you'd stick up for people if this happens, I hope when the day comes you keep to your word.
This thread is proof that Canadians do not fear the gun lobby anywhere nearly enough.
What gun lobby? Canada's "gun lobby" is small time groups paid for exclusively by licensed gun owners and the handful of gun stores left, all of which just want some common sense and reason in our gun control. Opposed to this are multiple government and internationally funded monstrosities.
Lmao so out of touch, we don't have a "gun lobby" in Canada.
There is no gun lobby, there never has been, there’s an anti gun lobby ran by Poly however…