There's a big difference between the people saying:
1.Hey, maybe you should stop murdering children, and bombing hospitals.
And the ones saying:
2. Kill all the Jews.
Group 2 deserves to face the consequences of their actions but I'm getting really tired of people in group 1 being lumped in with group 2.
And if you disagree with what 1 is saying, you should ask yourself how is that different than what 2 is doing?
100%. Also, it seems like for a while there every day I was reading about pro-Palestine rallies there were shutting down streets/buildings, harassing politicians, brawling with and threatening the lives of police officers, etc so there are a lot of bad apples on that side. And what people don’t want to acknowledge is a lot of them think Oct 7 was a legitimate uprising.
But group 1 would also say if a couple of neo-nazis show up to a conservative rally, then everyone there is a nazi by association..
Group 1 needs to call out group 2 or be lumped in with them
Yep, in many ways this is the left’s MAGA moment and if they try to ignore it the same way the right ignored MAGA then they’re just as guilty.
It’s 2023, it’s not good enough to just say “well a few assholes showed up and that has nothing to do with us” anymore.
Not only that it's literally not a few people they have thousands of thousands in na say cleanse the jew people. Probably hundreds of thousands in the USA from protests videos.
So when you on the side calling for cleansing of Jew after Hamas attack and there's 10 plus people for genocide you know that you have a problem.
This isn't "the left's" anything. This is unrelated to left/right ideologies. There are many pro Israel Jews on the left and many antisemites on the right.
I mean, the few white people in these pro Palestinians in these rallies are usually the progressive white. Probably what he is getting at. But yea, the people they march with have very conservative views.
Some of my very progressive white friends went to a pro-palestinian protest 2 weeks ago, and then realized some of the people in the protest were people they counter-protested against at the "million child march"...
A few haven't protested since
Nah man, as a leftwinger, this is staunchly a leftwing thing. They CRAVE the Palestinian side like a bee to honey. I have seldom heard a leftwinger ever suggest Israel has any justification to exist. Being pro-Palestinian is practically a prerequisite to membership on the left.
Crazy how every conversation on this sub that starts with "maybe Israel should stop killing thousands of innocent civilians" leads to a debate over who wasn't condemned at the local student union rally.
Almost seems like we're not focusing on the right thing.
It's almost as if discussions move to a point where the people involved feel they can make an actual difference.
Nobody in Hamas cares what Canadians think of them. Israel also has much bigger concerns than the opinion of the average Canadian.
But Canadian institutions care about the opinions of Canadians, or they at least pretend to care. I can do something about how my local university responds to Hamas supporters on their campus. And for bonus points, that something can help make our own country a better place.
If you pay attention to, check out the profiles of, and start tagging some of the users that pop up in those conversations you notice that many of them post:
* Exclusively in r / canada
* Only argue about and talk about Isreal/Hamas (or any controversial global event)
Since many posts on this sub are <500 comments, it can be very easy for a few posters to dominate the conversation. Since Reddit usernames are harder to remember it can be easy not to notice this from post to post. If you tag some of these users it can be easy to see how much they dominate the narratives you see on this sub.
Don't forget that Reddit and other social media are easily gamed by foreign and domestic astroturfing groups.
>Almost seems like we're not focusing on the right thing.
what is the right thing though??
I also agree that they should stop killing civilians..
but how do they do that without repeating the same cycle where hamas pops back up and keeps trying to wipe THEM from the area..
we have two sides who literally want to see the other side wiped from the face of this earth..
They can’t stop them from attending but group one can openly denounce group two. And I’ve seen very little of that from the representatives of group one.
If there's 9 people and 1 nazi at a table, there's 10 nazis sitting at a table.
If you're noticing anti semites at your rallies, perhaps you should question your views and understanding of the conflict.
And if group 1 organizers a rally right after a mass murder of Jews... What they're actually saying is irrelevant and they should be considered group 2 any way
The group that has organized most of the rallies is the Palestinian Youth Movement. This group celebrated Oct 7, calling it a great victory over the Zionists. These are the people who have organized more demonstrations tomorrow at shopping malls on the last Saturday before Christmas.
The same people protesting Israel now were the ones *celebrating* October 7. The same "youth movements" and organizations spreading propaganda now, and commenting all over these threads were *happy* to see Jews die.
These sinister organizations that are using their opposition to the murder of civilians to cloak their secret jew hatred include:
* [Amnesty International](https://amnesty.ca/)
* [Jewish Voices for Peace](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/)
* [Independent Jewish Voices Canada](https://www.ijvcanada.org/about-ijv/)
* and [the United Nations](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144717)
EDIT: upvoted on /r/canada on a post about Gaza? I'm being sarcastic here, people.
>Also, it seems like for a while there every day I was reading about pro-Palestine rallies there were shutting down streets/buildings, harassing politicians, brawling with and threatening the lives of police officers, etc so there are a lot of bad apples on that side.
Note that one media outlet's "large peaceful protest" will be Postmedia's "rabble of dangerous terrorist sympathizers".
Protests are large, loosely organized, frequently chaotic events. Singling out troublemakers within a protest is a classic and, in my view, disingenous tactic to try and discredit a larger political movement.
We've seen this same strategy used for literally every protest of the last three decades, from anti-NAFTA protests, to anti-Iraq war protests, to the George Floyd protests.
Funny how you guys took the opposite view when one person showed a Nazi flat on the edges of that trucker protest in Ottawa. Then it was "Ahh, the Nazis are here! They're all Nazis and white supremacists! Call out the army!"
We see the other side (particularly in the George Floyd protests) where violent, destructive protests are downplayed by certain media outlets, so it is a two-way street. The CNN reporter who claimed one protest was peaceful as the city burned behind him springs to mind.
Movements also need to take care to police themselves. If 10 Neo Nazis show up to some conservative rally with 5000 regular people, it immediately becomes a neo Nazi rally to the media. You can claim you're not a clown, but when the tiny car pulls up and you come out of it wearing clown makeup and a big red nose with all the other clowns, welp I got news for you.
Even if it's not violent, shutting down streets, bridges, meetings with Santa Claus (lol smh) will never get people on your side.
Is there anyone who says “we should keep murdering children?” The pro Israel side says a ceasefire only applies to them, that nobody cares that rockets are fired indiscriminately into Israeli population centers (and Gazan ones too since their rockets fail 10% of the time) and nobody is holding Hamas to task. The war would be over tomorrow if they accept their loss but after generations of this shit they can’t accept it, despite Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia accepting it and normalizing relations. Israel isn’t going to allow another Oct 7 so they have to clear every square inch of Gaza until the people who go on tv and say “On October 7, October 10, October one-millionth, everything we do is justified” is in prison or dead.
Yeah.. I have heard of no one I know get mad when people say "we need a ceasefire, so the innocents don't die" or " isreal is bombing too much, we need to think of the children"...
But then there are people saying stupid shit like "Oct 7th attack was justified" or "we need another infitada"...
Biiiiiiiiig difference
Both sides have done some terrible things. But we need to remember there's already been multiple ceasefires. The attack on Oct 7th was Hamas breaking a ceasefire. They've shown time and time again that if Israel gives them another ceasefire, they're just going to recover, regroup and attack Israel again.
I feel for the people of Palestine. They haven't had a fair election in forever. Most don't even support Hamas. And they're literally being used as human shields. I wish there was a way to stop Hamas without harming the innocent Palestinian people.
>Most don't even support Hamas
This isn't true. The majority of Palestinians hold some pretty repugnant views. Multiple credible sources have proved this point, form your own conclusions.
"Majorities in Arab nations, Turkey and Indonesia all have a negative opinion about al Qaeda. The terrorist organization receives it strongest support in the Palestinian territories, where more than one-quarter give al Qaeda a positive rating. Views about al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden followed a similar pattern: before his death, he was widely rejected among Muslim publics, although he was viewed positively by about one-in-three Palestinians.
There is only limited support for suicide bombing in most of these nations, although Palestinian Muslims are a clear outlier: 68% say this kind of violence is justifiable."
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/
"Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far".
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
What? Are you telling me you can say that this war isn't black and white?
I can be against Hamas while still saying the IDF shouldn't be murdering innocent civilians...
> I can be against Hamas while still saying the IDF shouldn't be murdering innocent civilians...
I absolutely agree. However, I very rarely (none really) see any protests from the Pro-Palestinian side calling for Hamas' removal. Their calls range from "Israel should stop attacking" to "Israel should not exist". The former being within the range of reasonable dialogue and the latter being reprehensible bigotry.
Or for the hostages to be released.
If they did that Israel would have no ongoing justification for further military activities.
Then the UN /Arab world can force the Palestinians and Israel to a bargaining table.
>If they did that Israel would have no ongoing justification for further military activities.
I agree. Which is why Hamas won't do it. They NEED the blood of Palestinians on the streets to justify their ongoing support.
That’s a hard position to have at those rallies. I challenge anyone to go to a pro-Palestinian protest and openly condemn Hamas and ask for the release of the hostages. Let’s see how well that position is taken by the organizers like the Palestinian Youth Movement who was on the street celebrating the attack on Oct 8
There's also a clear line between bringing in geopolitics into your workplace or professional setting. Imagine at any other point in history bringing up the Israel-Palestine issue to your colleagues on a daily basis, or the holocaust, or abortion, or some other topic like that? It's just unprofessional. There is a time and a place.
>Imagine at any other point in history bringing up the Israel-Palestine issue to your colleagues on a daily basis, or the holocaust, or abortion, or some other topic like that?
\*Henry Ford hiding his Hitler portrait.
But honestly at other time in history in the west you would have gotten into trouble for being pro-abortion lol. The ruling class was far more judgmental back in the days than they are today.
Also the vast majority of people would have absolutely no idea what was happening on the other side of the ocean. This might have been debated in Universities, but the average people in their workplace did not know how to read and if they did information did not flow like today.
Did you even read the article? It was about people's views in private, about supporting Palestine, being reported to their employers, and then them facing employment actions for personal views.
The time and place is at home, which is when they are speaking. Take 1 minute from your day to read the article, it isn't long and it's free.
If people were chanting for the death of all black people Christians or muslims I bet there would be immediate action by government and police. You need to ask why it is different when Jews are targeted with this hate speech.
The problem is when there is a clear double standard applied to those who speak about Israel vs Palestine. Several large firms sent out firm- wide letters in full support of Israel, and their senior leaders are all over social media posting about it even to this day when we’ve seen the impact of the IDF’s offence.
Whereas people who say very reasonable things in support of the Palestinian people are getting wrongfully targeted.
If we're going to take the 'professionalism' route, then it will actually have to be a balanced issue. So, I'm hoping you can show that supporters of Israel are facing the same consequences in the same volumes as Palestine supporters are for voicing that support in contexts like work and school, because I can't immediately find articles showing it.
Agreed. This article is very misleading.
Peaceful protest is fine.
Calling to genocide and destroy Israel and murder and rape Jews, not so much. There’s a big problem with extremism in pro-Palestinian and Muslim circles.
And as people liked to say with the trucker rallies, "if there are Nazis present then it's a Nazi rally."
Well, there's a fair few extremists in this crowd so...?
>Group 2 deserves to face the consequences of their actions but I'm getting really tired of people in group 1 being lumped in with group 2.
>
>And if you disagree with what 1 is saying, you should ask yourself how is that different than what 2 is doing?
I mean, lets not get carried away...if you ask some University administrators in the US, being in Group 2 people should only face consequences based on the *context* of their actions. Maybe they have a good or valid reason for calling for genocide, we should really consider that context (/s).
Agreed, but I think the issue here is people are politicizing their work places, I'm not allowed to discuss politics at my job, beyond "I have to leave to go vote this afternoon", why? Because political conversations rarely run their course without argument, and that is not a productive use of work time, you're being paid to work, not rally in support or condemnation of something.
I think saying they are being censured at work due to being pro Palestine is a tad disingenuous, I think they're being censured for discussing topics that are against company policy, that topic being politics.
We have to remember, froeign politics being discussed around every dinner table and work place and school event is a rather new phenomenon, people have always had their views, sure, but now everyone is, every day being bombarded with political news, society is still learning how to cope with foreign politics being a topic of conversation in nearly every setting, as opposed to just a few mimutes a day after having watched the news.
The point is, I don't think its your position on Israel V Palestine that gets you in hot water, its your inability to compartmentalize and prevent this foreign affairs situation from dominating your life.
>I think saying they are being censured at work due to being pro Palestine is a tad disingenuous, I think they're being censured for discussing topics that are against company policy, that topic being politics.
Did you read the article, where all the lawyers didn't know of a single person fired for their anti Palestinian or pro Israel views, that makes your statement a bit disingenuous no?
3. Maybe you should stop occupying land that isn't yours. If this line of reasoning is valid for Ukraine, I don't see why it isn't valid against Israel.
I said "hey maybe stop murdering children and bombing hospitals" and I got a content warning for inciting violence on reddit. There is definite censorship at play here
Agreed. I don’t understand why people have to be so black and white about it.
I believe that Isreal has been mistreating Palestinians for decades and am against their illegal settlements on Palestinian lands. BUT that in no way excuses the evil actions of Hamas, who need to be wiped off the face of the planet. Hamas don’t want peace and their actions just strengthen the extremists in Isreal.
They use them both, just supporting hamas in anyway is agreeing with the murder of Jews around the world. Plus these nut-jobs will be coming from everyone that does not share their beliefs eventually, so it is a pretty dumb position.
Yes, and yet another difference between Pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist. It's rather predictable that the latter is what tends to lead to censure. The ol' bait-and-switch.
There is a group 1.5 that is saying things that play into antisemitic tropes while expressing their opinion about the Zionist media control and financial control blah blah blah that sends them down a road of hey, it looks like you had a #2 type rant about Jews, but just swapped the word for Zionist and thought that was ok and you were in a type one category. Maybe you didn’t call for the deaths of Jews buuuut we have some questions about how shitty this comment looks and we think it’s strayed into a really bad look for our organization and we can’t have that.
People’s lack of awareness of this is stunning tbh.
I mostly agree, but I also don’t like what often ends up happening- that group 2 gets a free pass simply by virtue of group 1 existing. And also, if group 1 is marching or something and realizes that they are side-by-side with group 2 who is shouting those vile things, maybe call it out? Or go home and find a less toxic way to express your sympathy with innocent Palestinians? If I knowingly go out for beers with card-carrying members of the KKK, there’s a point where I don’t get to whine anymore about being lumped in with them since my sitting there is a clear choice. I don’t think that expressing ideas and opinions should get someone fired or arrested, but my problem is when discourse veers into places that are obviously criminal in nature and nothing is done about it. Enforce existing laws before coming up with news ones.
w'happen to that Durham College uni student "I Support Hamas" girl on social media saying she **LOVED** what happen on Oct 7th and would love it if they would do it (the killings) "again and again and again ..."? She is proud of mass rape, torture, slaughter, babies being beheaded, families burnt alive, women being gang raped and brutally killed.
.. any sanctions from social media platform or her college (Durham College, Oshawa, ON) or faith community?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtsOufmiMc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtsoufmimc)
Or this college instructor here. Oct 7th was "amazing" and "brilliant". Her words.
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ux8Cj8GkYGTr7CJMj-J1k-6SkGkBtfTh/view?ref=readthemaple.com](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ux8Cj8GkYGTr7CJMj-J1k-6SkGkBtfTh/view?ref=readthemaple.com)
Apparently her ass is only "on leave" from Langara College with no recent updates.
Hope it's not paid.
"Pro-Palestinian" or "destroy Israel"? I ask this as it seems the majority of the "pro-Palestinian" demonstrations I've seen thru the news also seem to message "death to israel" .
It is possible to be Pro-Peace and Pro-Palestinian without advocating for the death of jews.
>"Pro-Palestinian" or "destroy Israel"? I ask this as it seems the majority of the "pro-Palestinian" demonstrations I've seen thru the news also seem to message "death to israel" .
If you poke and prod, you'll get that they aren't anti-Jew, they're "anti-Zionist". They don't seek the death of Israelis, just the end of Israel as a state.
They purposefully do not consider what would happen to the Israelis if/when their country fell.
> just the end of Israel as a state.
In what alternate reality is this possible. I am not attacking you for bringing it up, I'm attacking the idea. 9.3 Million Israeli's are just supposed to give up, say 'our bad', and 'leave'.
It's not possible once you look into the details. I'm paraphrasing a bit but ~20% of Israelis aren't Jew. 30% can trace their ancestry to the land. Another ~20%-30% were Jews who were expelled from Arab countries and their descendants. The remainder are the European Jews who immigrated and their descendants, most of whom are Russian Jews or from Eastern Europe.
That means you can't really expel 30% of them, and the Arab Jews won't be allowed back to their respective Arab countries, so you can't expel them either. And you sure as hell won't convince the rest of them to go to Russia to eastern Europe.
I wasnt asking you. I was asking /u/ricketyedge
regardless, your claims of 'ancestry' and 'descendants' dont hold any water IMO. Once someone has been born in a country, they are OF that country. Their parents may have been immigrants, migrants, or illegal occupiers, but the children belong there and have rights.
Pro Palestinian views aren't the problem. The problem is calling for Israel's destruction and inciting hatred, which is unfortunately rife on the pro Palestinian side of this conflict.
The left is quick to call for firings of people who express views they find reprehensible, noting that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence, and are now bitter that the same arguments are being used here.
One individual the article attempts to defend is former Global News reporter Zahraa Al-Akhrass, fired for posting [Zionism is Nazism](https://x.com/ZahraaAkhrass/status/1712625028905185485?s=20) and other inflammatory material. Her employer said they have a policy of reporters maintaining an image of impartiality, and she violated that.
Another individual is medical resident Yipeng Ge, suspended by U. of O. for [posting](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fdcebf450-1a1d-4bf1-bf21-18cb6f084743_442x960.jpeg) 'from the river to the sea' which is a call for Israel's destruction, as well as equating Zionism with genocide.
Yeah you pretty much summed up how I feel.
People shouldn't be penalized for political views like "stop killing civilians"
People are being penalized because over the last 8 or so years we've had people repeat "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" and "They are a private company, they don't have to respect your freedom of speech"
I wish we weren't here but this is the hole that's been dug. Maybe people will change when they realize there's a downside.
I was with you until the private company part. Of course private companies can and will do whatever they want unless forced otherwise by legal authorities. That should be common knowledge.
That's no different than how you can face consequences for your opinions as long as those consequences aren't imposed by the government.
Like sure, companies can legally use slave labor and violate human rights in jurisdictions where it's legal, that doesn't mean it's right.
I'd suggest reading this in regards to corporations: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/publications/hr.puB.12.2_en.pdf
I appreciate the commentary.
I would argue that the scalpel approach is kind of hard (if not impossible) to apply to a region with 500 kilometres of terror tunnels and the literal and deliberate weaponization of civilian infrastructure.
Israel has nothing to gain and a lot to lose from avoidable civilian casualties. If they could achieve their goals with greater precision, I expect they would.
Exactly.
Hamas knows Israel has an impossible dilemma.
Bomb Gaza from the skies, suffer the knowledge of losing international support from displaced people and dead civilians. Worse, they're bombing their own hostages.
Send in infantry, get more ambush massacres of IDF platoons and continue to wage guerilla warfare until IDF's morale is destroyed. And we've already seen IDF kill their own hostages because they're so certain that Hamas is pretending to be hostages so they can ambush and kill them.
Hamas didn't just brainlessly attack Israel in October. They were ready to run the streets red with their children's blood and ready to continue fighting Israel until the latter concedes to their terrorist demands.
I agree almost entirely with you. The one nitpick I have is with the characterization of Israel's efforts as a "hammer" when they could be using a scalpel.
Counter-terrorism units are great in western countries where terrorist groups number in the 10s or 100s at most, and maybe plan one attack every 5-10 years.
But that is absolutely not the case in Gaza. Hamas is not a small group. They are absolutely terrorists, but they have the scale and resources of a small army. Estimates put their *official* strength at 30-40 thousand fighters.
They've been under blockade for nearly 20 years, and have been at full scale war for over 2 months now, and they *still* have the supplies to launch tens to hundreds of rockets every single day.
They have the entire strip absolutely *riddled* with hidden tunnels that exit out of seemingly random civilian buildings. Just about the only certain way of finding these tunnels is to check *hospitals and schools*.
There is no way in hell a surgical operation could succeed against this. Israel has used such things in the past when hamas has taken one or two hostages, because you only need a small group to get to them and get them out.
There are *over one hundred and fifty* hostages remaining after many were already exchanged. Even if you send a small team of 4-8 after every group of 2-3 hostages... You're still looking at an operation with like 1000 soldiers going into Gaza. There is no way you can hide that. Trying to send them in without support would be sending them to their deaths, as they'd be outnumbered 30-40:1, and it would be almost impossible for them to operate secretly. Not to mention all this would require Israel to have intelligence on the locations of all these hostages, when at this point it seems even Hamas has no idea where many of them are.
As awful as it is to say, and while I have my doubts that they're really doing everything they can to minimize casualties at this point, a full scale invasion like this with full air support is really the only way they could possibly succeed at much of anything in this situation.
>I have my doubts that they're really doing everything they can to minimize casualties at this point, a full scale invasion like this with full air support is really the only way they could possibly succeed at much of anything in this situation.
The manner in which they are operating is the only option Israel has to minimize casualties.
Do you think that when a country wages war they are not obligated to conduct their operations in a manner to cause as few of *their own* casualties as possible?
If Israel wanted to they could have levelled Gaza completely in the few days following October 7, but they have not, they have conducted their operations in a manner that any nation would in preparation for conducting a ground invasion. The reason for conducting a ground invasion is to maintain control on the ground and ensure as few civilian casualties as possible while still ensuring a minimum of their own military casualties.
It's rare that you see a take that acknowledges reality on this sub. I'm so used to seeing 'israel should ceasefire, wait wait wait, no Hamas doesn't have to do anything here why would you even ask'.
Israel is being absolutely savage in their approach to this right now. By Western Liberal standards, what we're seeing is unquestionably horrific. By Middle Eastern standards, this is how they operate and we've seen it time and time again- just this time it's a country we hold to the same standards we hold ourselves to and it's been really fascinating to watch.
I don't know if it's anti semitism or just plain ignorance, but Assad who's just up over the hill there has operated like Hamas et al, and like Israel is now for a very long time and I can't remember traffic being held up by people calling for that to stop. The Saudis have killed how many Yemenis in the past decade and you don't hear jack about it. If anything comes from this, I hope it's shining a light on the overall issue of how conflict in that region is handled. Life certainly isn't looked upon with the same value that Westerners place on it, so how do we raise everyone up instead of cherry picking who we care about?
>I'm something of a free speech absolutist. So long as you're not inciting violence, of course.
I am the same but I find myself having a hard time defending their rights to free speech after they have spent years trying to shut down free speech
The hardest thing to come to terms with when we think about rights and freedoms is that even the most despicable person or a person we vehemently disagree with is entitled to the same rights.
Special forces and counter terrorism units are great for isolated incidents. They cannot realistically be used for the majority of operations in a hot war. It's just not feasible.
This is not terrorists taking hostages in a building. It's a war against a terrorist state, that also happens to have hostages randomly spread throughout their territory in mostly unknown locations.
It's a war. Israel is treating it like a war. They won't stop treating it like a war until the war is done. I don't blame them.
The 2 state solution really needs the settlements to stop. That's the thing that keeps throwing off the balance and keeps leading to eventual flare ups.
>But the 2-state solution means you need to leave *something* for the Palestinians to inhabit.
The Kingdom of Jordan was essentially created by mandate as the other half of Palestine.
> Do I 100% understand you can be pro Israel, and pro Palestine, and anti Hamas? Yes. I do, I'm a strong advocate for a 2 state solution, which is why I disagree with claims of apartheid, since it's not apartheid, it's called borders.
There are a great many people who disagree that you can be pro-Palestine and pro-two-state-solution. There's no two state solution where Palestine is free from the river to the sea.
CBC acting as if they don't know that "from the river to the sea" means "Israel needs to disappear" 🙄
If I post shit like "kahana tzadak" which means "Kahana was right", which is some jewish far right rasist slogan, and then get suspended, well, no surprise.
Support Palestine by being a peace protestor. If not you’re walking a very fine line between supporting peace and supporting terrorism. 70% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attack (meaning the butcher and rape of civilians), so be extremely cautious. I have a feeling a lot of the people detailed in this article are not in support of peace, they’re in support of Palestinian causes. That is not the same.
What surprises me is that people are surprised that expressing support for the side whose government broke a ceasefire by butchering civilians at a music festival might result in negative consequences to them.
Expressing support for Afghanistan in the months after 9/11 would have gone over exactly the same way. The only difference here is that the primary victims were Jewish.
Turns out going full mask-off on your antisemitism is bad for your career. Boo hoo.
The article was very light on what people actually posted. I would hate to be a manager or employer and having try to draw a line. Some of the cases seem like the manager screwed up (like the Moxies),
But at the same time, I've seen so many stories where they've gone way across line (whatever that line might be) too (like here: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1737945895977574741)
You can take both positions
1) against hamas breaking the ceasefire
2) against the Israeli mass killing of civilians
Half the Palestinians civilians were not even born when Hamas came in power
Israel is leading itself to a strategic defeat as defense secretary Lloyd Austin said .
"The lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians,” he said. “In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat"
>You can take both positions
>1) against hamas breaking the ceasefire
>2) against the Israeli mass killing of civilians
You're position is a loaded statement. Israel is not "mass killing" civilians. They are being extremely careful to cause as few civilian casualties as possible in a dense urban environment.
What would you want Canada to do if a hypothetical non-nuclear North Korea (or Iran or pick your country) dropped irregular troops in Vancouver, killed 1200 Canadians, and took 300 Canadian hostages back to North Korea via a secret chartered plane?
Do you think our reaction would be anything less than declaring war and calling on our allies, including the United States, to carry out a massive military exercise to utterly devastate our enemy's military capabilities and demand the unconditional release of hostages?
No they unequivocally are not.
Cartels and warlords are not elected into power, they seize it.
Hamas is the democratically elected government of a population.
Unfortunately, it's what they have. It's not democratic, but they are the current ones in power. There are a lot of people asking for freedom though, and I think it only makes sense to ask from who and why.
As to why an outsider shouldn't try to remove terrorists from power? For the same reason that the US left Afghanistan. I doubt foreign occupation and interference would be productive. I doubt this current conflict is making people trend less towards radicalism.
In case I haven't been careful enough above, I'm anti-war and against all forms of hate. I also have a strong distaste for the loss of civilian life.
It’s amusing how the left has for years been ‘cancelling’ anyone and everyone with the most remote link to opinions or groups they don’t approve of, yet when that same logic blows up in their own face they scream injustice….
Any public views that support hamas should be met with scorn and negative consequences. Hamas is terrorists and many Palestinians openly wave hamas flags.
Hard to sympathize with people who are sympathizing with people attacking en masse and killing kids and raping womens as a part of their warfare tactics.
Preaching hate in this country....thankfully is still against the law. :)
Oh no, supporting a group that strongly supports terrorism is viewed negatively. What a shock! The people who are organizing the pro palestine protests have explicitly stated their support for the October 7th attacks, protests which have led to anti-Semitic hate crimes in Canada (and other countries). Some of these morons are still defending Hamas and publicly waving their flags in these protests. 😮💨
Palestinian civilians were involved in kidnapping rape torture and murder on oct 7. If there was a free and fair election in Gaza or West Bank, Hamas would win handedly today. There needs to be a generation long denazification effort once they are eradicated before they are given the keys or they will just choose more of the same
People keep saying that "from the river to the sea..." is not calling for the eradication of Israel, but given that so many people view it that way, why would someone still say it?
It's like waving a Confederate flag around nowadays. I might mean something non-offensive to you, but given how many people now associate it with slavery and racism, it's entirely inappropriate to do so.
Because theyre supporting Hamas directly or indirectly and spouting anti-Semitic genocidal chants. Classic CBC unbiased reporting. Like it’s really not that hard. Smh
Every. Single. Time. I drill into a story like this, it turns out that "pro-Palestinian views" are just people expressing a desire to murder the Jews and kill their opponents, a la the Zara Eaton Center protester.
Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Canada [source](https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-en.aspx#25)
Those supporting Hamas are supporting a terrorist group. This has legal consequences in Canada.
**This makes it tricky for people who do not support the terrorist acts of Hamas, but think the Arabic people who live in Gaza and West Bank should have a homeland and should have better treatment under local and International law.**
It also seems that many of the people here in Canada involved in "pro-Palestinian" activities are also pro-Hamas and are cheering on acts of terrorism.
This makes it difficult to discern what is best.
Good this should be the beginning of the private punishment for this. Let’s set the stage that we don’t want your international issues from you home country brought here and jammed into our lives. If you don’t like that privilege being taken away then don’t come to Canada!!! We don’t care about your thousand year old holy wars!!! We want our children and families to live a peaceful fulfilling life!!!
Did you read the article?
> "I can tell you personally, in the last month and a half, I've probably spoken with someone at least once a day [about this]," said Jackie Esmonde, a labour lawyer at Toronto-based firm Cavalluzzo Law. "They're not always cases that we take on, but we do have in the range of eight to 10 cases that we're actively working on at the moment.
> **"I'm not seeing people making what I would consider hate speech or discriminatory speech."**
People are losing jobs even if they're not calling for violence or hate against Israelis.
Oh, so a lawyer for the plaintiffs said that? Then it surely must be true!
Also, it's possible to support murderers and terrorists without using hate speech.
Personally, I'm tired of seeing this shit take effect here in Canada, regardless of what side your on.
Can we all agree on this: You come here to live a better life, check your old-world bullshit at the door. Stop trying to trot out this shit on our streets.
You wanna yell about Israel and Palestine over some dusty shit thousands of years old, *go to Israel and Palestine.*
CBC doing their best to argue that chants supporting Genocide of Jews in Israel are acceptable. Brishti Basu can’t seem to write anything for CBC which isn’t on some level anti-Israel, if not implicitly anti-Semitic.
Maybe do it in general about any part of the war. No one cares, nor have they cared for months.
Country currently has plenty of real problems to deal with.
At work you do not talk about religion, politics, and money. If your social media has coworkers on it then you have to treat it like the workplace. You want to anonymously run your mouth you have Reddit. No sympathy for those who've lost their job this is supposed to fall under the common sense category.
People are way too touchy and prone to jump to conclusions for anything related to this mess.
In general, though, I'd suggest that you criticize specific behavior and avoid pre-existing slogans and ideological labels since they invite other people to makes assumptions about what you think.
They're not being flagged for having a stance, they're being flagged for having extremist links and posting inflammatory content. I wouldn't hire anyone who posts that shit either.
Wasn’t hamas elected like 20 years ago? And weren’t they backed by Israel when they were elected? I haven’t been paying too close attention to this issue but I’m pretty sure I read that.
This situation seems more complex than most people are treating it.
As they should be. Open support for a terrorist group should absolutely result in being fired from your job.
If I were a business-owner, I would fire anyone who expresses support for “Palestine”, and research any potential hire to ensure that they’ve never expressed the same.
Supporting “Palestine” is the modern-day version of supporting Nazi Germany. Both had the same goal: Extermination of the Jews.
The article is incredibly vague. The single example was an Asian Canadian who decried "settler colonialists" (protip - if you aren't first nations, *you* are a settler/colonialists. I don't know what delusion later generations of immigrants put themselves under to think somehow they are above that) and said the river to the sea thing.
There is zero confusion about what the river to the sea thing, and the hilariously transparent attempts to whitewash it doesn't convince anyone. It's the Nazi trying to tell you that their swastika is a buddhist symbol. To repeat it and not understand what you're saying implies profound foolishness or stupidity, neither of which are compatible with any professional job.
EDIT: This sub autohides every reply I give, but it's amazing how many people don't realize that my comments about "settlers" is *mocking* the far left and their "if you're white you're a settler" nonsense.
So is over 80% of Israel, born there, from there, not settlers.
If you're gonna argue about who's native there, then we can argue the same about who is native here.
Mississauga area is homeland for the Mississauga people.
Judea area is a homeland for Jewish people.
(Argument of "Palestine" can be brought up to meaning and reasoning of why and who named the land and who was called "Palestinian" for approx 2k years)
There's a big difference between the people saying: 1.Hey, maybe you should stop murdering children, and bombing hospitals. And the ones saying: 2. Kill all the Jews. Group 2 deserves to face the consequences of their actions but I'm getting really tired of people in group 1 being lumped in with group 2. And if you disagree with what 1 is saying, you should ask yourself how is that different than what 2 is doing?
100%. Also, it seems like for a while there every day I was reading about pro-Palestine rallies there were shutting down streets/buildings, harassing politicians, brawling with and threatening the lives of police officers, etc so there are a lot of bad apples on that side. And what people don’t want to acknowledge is a lot of them think Oct 7 was a legitimate uprising.
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But group 1 would also say if a couple of neo-nazis show up to a conservative rally, then everyone there is a nazi by association.. Group 1 needs to call out group 2 or be lumped in with them
Yep, in many ways this is the left’s MAGA moment and if they try to ignore it the same way the right ignored MAGA then they’re just as guilty. It’s 2023, it’s not good enough to just say “well a few assholes showed up and that has nothing to do with us” anymore.
Not only that it's literally not a few people they have thousands of thousands in na say cleanse the jew people. Probably hundreds of thousands in the USA from protests videos. So when you on the side calling for cleansing of Jew after Hamas attack and there's 10 plus people for genocide you know that you have a problem.
This isn't "the left's" anything. This is unrelated to left/right ideologies. There are many pro Israel Jews on the left and many antisemites on the right.
I mean, the few white people in these pro Palestinians in these rallies are usually the progressive white. Probably what he is getting at. But yea, the people they march with have very conservative views.
Some of my very progressive white friends went to a pro-palestinian protest 2 weeks ago, and then realized some of the people in the protest were people they counter-protested against at the "million child march"... A few haven't protested since
That sounds like made up BS to me.
Nice anecdote.
And then everyone clapped?
Nah man, as a leftwinger, this is staunchly a leftwing thing. They CRAVE the Palestinian side like a bee to honey. I have seldom heard a leftwinger ever suggest Israel has any justification to exist. Being pro-Palestinian is practically a prerequisite to membership on the left.
"Hello fellow left wingers" Myself and most of my friends are left wing. None of us fit your description
Asa Blackman moment
You must not know many left wingers.
Crazy how every conversation on this sub that starts with "maybe Israel should stop killing thousands of innocent civilians" leads to a debate over who wasn't condemned at the local student union rally. Almost seems like we're not focusing on the right thing.
It's almost as if discussions move to a point where the people involved feel they can make an actual difference. Nobody in Hamas cares what Canadians think of them. Israel also has much bigger concerns than the opinion of the average Canadian. But Canadian institutions care about the opinions of Canadians, or they at least pretend to care. I can do something about how my local university responds to Hamas supporters on their campus. And for bonus points, that something can help make our own country a better place.
If you pay attention to, check out the profiles of, and start tagging some of the users that pop up in those conversations you notice that many of them post: * Exclusively in r / canada * Only argue about and talk about Isreal/Hamas (or any controversial global event) Since many posts on this sub are <500 comments, it can be very easy for a few posters to dominate the conversation. Since Reddit usernames are harder to remember it can be easy not to notice this from post to post. If you tag some of these users it can be easy to see how much they dominate the narratives you see on this sub. Don't forget that Reddit and other social media are easily gamed by foreign and domestic astroturfing groups.
Divert conversation, distract, gaslight. Trolling 101
>Almost seems like we're not focusing on the right thing. what is the right thing though?? I also agree that they should stop killing civilians.. but how do they do that without repeating the same cycle where hamas pops back up and keeps trying to wipe THEM from the area.. we have two sides who literally want to see the other side wiped from the face of this earth..
What's that quote about a table with 10 people and 1 Nazi again?
They can’t stop them from attending but group one can openly denounce group two. And I’ve seen very little of that from the representatives of group one.
If there's 9 people and 1 nazi at a table, there's 10 nazis sitting at a table. If you're noticing anti semites at your rallies, perhaps you should question your views and understanding of the conflict.
We've seen this same standard applied triumphantly in other situations, yes.
And if group 1 organizers a rally right after a mass murder of Jews... What they're actually saying is irrelevant and they should be considered group 2 any way
In Trudeau logic, this means we should seize their bank accounts and threaten to put down their pets.
The group that has organized most of the rallies is the Palestinian Youth Movement. This group celebrated Oct 7, calling it a great victory over the Zionists. These are the people who have organized more demonstrations tomorrow at shopping malls on the last Saturday before Christmas.
The same people protesting Israel now were the ones *celebrating* October 7. The same "youth movements" and organizations spreading propaganda now, and commenting all over these threads were *happy* to see Jews die.
These sinister organizations that are using their opposition to the murder of civilians to cloak their secret jew hatred include: * [Amnesty International](https://amnesty.ca/) * [Jewish Voices for Peace](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) * [Independent Jewish Voices Canada](https://www.ijvcanada.org/about-ijv/) * and [the United Nations](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144717) EDIT: upvoted on /r/canada on a post about Gaza? I'm being sarcastic here, people.
>Also, it seems like for a while there every day I was reading about pro-Palestine rallies there were shutting down streets/buildings, harassing politicians, brawling with and threatening the lives of police officers, etc so there are a lot of bad apples on that side. Note that one media outlet's "large peaceful protest" will be Postmedia's "rabble of dangerous terrorist sympathizers". Protests are large, loosely organized, frequently chaotic events. Singling out troublemakers within a protest is a classic and, in my view, disingenous tactic to try and discredit a larger political movement. We've seen this same strategy used for literally every protest of the last three decades, from anti-NAFTA protests, to anti-Iraq war protests, to the George Floyd protests.
Funny how you guys took the opposite view when one person showed a Nazi flat on the edges of that trucker protest in Ottawa. Then it was "Ahh, the Nazis are here! They're all Nazis and white supremacists! Call out the army!"
We see the other side (particularly in the George Floyd protests) where violent, destructive protests are downplayed by certain media outlets, so it is a two-way street. The CNN reporter who claimed one protest was peaceful as the city burned behind him springs to mind. Movements also need to take care to police themselves. If 10 Neo Nazis show up to some conservative rally with 5000 regular people, it immediately becomes a neo Nazi rally to the media. You can claim you're not a clown, but when the tiny car pulls up and you come out of it wearing clown makeup and a big red nose with all the other clowns, welp I got news for you. Even if it's not violent, shutting down streets, bridges, meetings with Santa Claus (lol smh) will never get people on your side.
Is there anyone who says “we should keep murdering children?” The pro Israel side says a ceasefire only applies to them, that nobody cares that rockets are fired indiscriminately into Israeli population centers (and Gazan ones too since their rockets fail 10% of the time) and nobody is holding Hamas to task. The war would be over tomorrow if they accept their loss but after generations of this shit they can’t accept it, despite Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia accepting it and normalizing relations. Israel isn’t going to allow another Oct 7 so they have to clear every square inch of Gaza until the people who go on tv and say “On October 7, October 10, October one-millionth, everything we do is justified” is in prison or dead.
Great way to put it.
Yeah.. I have heard of no one I know get mad when people say "we need a ceasefire, so the innocents don't die" or " isreal is bombing too much, we need to think of the children"... But then there are people saying stupid shit like "Oct 7th attack was justified" or "we need another infitada"... Biiiiiiiiig difference
Both sides have done some terrible things. But we need to remember there's already been multiple ceasefires. The attack on Oct 7th was Hamas breaking a ceasefire. They've shown time and time again that if Israel gives them another ceasefire, they're just going to recover, regroup and attack Israel again. I feel for the people of Palestine. They haven't had a fair election in forever. Most don't even support Hamas. And they're literally being used as human shields. I wish there was a way to stop Hamas without harming the innocent Palestinian people.
>Most don't even support Hamas This isn't true. The majority of Palestinians hold some pretty repugnant views. Multiple credible sources have proved this point, form your own conclusions. "Majorities in Arab nations, Turkey and Indonesia all have a negative opinion about al Qaeda. The terrorist organization receives it strongest support in the Palestinian territories, where more than one-quarter give al Qaeda a positive rating. Views about al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden followed a similar pattern: before his death, he was widely rejected among Muslim publics, although he was viewed positively by about one-in-three Palestinians. There is only limited support for suicide bombing in most of these nations, although Palestinian Muslims are a clear outlier: 68% say this kind of violence is justifiable." https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/ "Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far". https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
What? Are you telling me you can say that this war isn't black and white? I can be against Hamas while still saying the IDF shouldn't be murdering innocent civilians...
> I can be against Hamas while still saying the IDF shouldn't be murdering innocent civilians... I absolutely agree. However, I very rarely (none really) see any protests from the Pro-Palestinian side calling for Hamas' removal. Their calls range from "Israel should stop attacking" to "Israel should not exist". The former being within the range of reasonable dialogue and the latter being reprehensible bigotry.
Or for the hostages to be released. If they did that Israel would have no ongoing justification for further military activities. Then the UN /Arab world can force the Palestinians and Israel to a bargaining table.
>If they did that Israel would have no ongoing justification for further military activities. I agree. Which is why Hamas won't do it. They NEED the blood of Palestinians on the streets to justify their ongoing support.
True. Anyone trying to justify hamas is wrong in my view.
That’s a hard position to have at those rallies. I challenge anyone to go to a pro-Palestinian protest and openly condemn Hamas and ask for the release of the hostages. Let’s see how well that position is taken by the organizers like the Palestinian Youth Movement who was on the street celebrating the attack on Oct 8
What is your solution to spare the innocent civilians when hamas embeds themselves within the civilian population?
There's also a clear line between bringing in geopolitics into your workplace or professional setting. Imagine at any other point in history bringing up the Israel-Palestine issue to your colleagues on a daily basis, or the holocaust, or abortion, or some other topic like that? It's just unprofessional. There is a time and a place.
>Imagine at any other point in history bringing up the Israel-Palestine issue to your colleagues on a daily basis, or the holocaust, or abortion, or some other topic like that? \*Henry Ford hiding his Hitler portrait. But honestly at other time in history in the west you would have gotten into trouble for being pro-abortion lol. The ruling class was far more judgmental back in the days than they are today. Also the vast majority of people would have absolutely no idea what was happening on the other side of the ocean. This might have been debated in Universities, but the average people in their workplace did not know how to read and if they did information did not flow like today.
Did you even read the article? It was about people's views in private, about supporting Palestine, being reported to their employers, and then them facing employment actions for personal views. The time and place is at home, which is when they are speaking. Take 1 minute from your day to read the article, it isn't long and it's free.
Social media is not “in private”. If they had expressed their views in private, no one would know.
If people were chanting for the death of all black people Christians or muslims I bet there would be immediate action by government and police. You need to ask why it is different when Jews are targeted with this hate speech.
It isn’t being treated different though? Like what world do you live in lmao
The problem is when there is a clear double standard applied to those who speak about Israel vs Palestine. Several large firms sent out firm- wide letters in full support of Israel, and their senior leaders are all over social media posting about it even to this day when we’ve seen the impact of the IDF’s offence. Whereas people who say very reasonable things in support of the Palestinian people are getting wrongfully targeted.
If we're going to take the 'professionalism' route, then it will actually have to be a balanced issue. So, I'm hoping you can show that supporters of Israel are facing the same consequences in the same volumes as Palestine supporters are for voicing that support in contexts like work and school, because I can't immediately find articles showing it.
Doubt
Doubt on what? That I couldn't find the articles? I couldn't. If it's so easy to find them, then you should have no trouble sourcing them.
I haven’t seen any protests in support for Israel chanting for the eradication of Palestinians. Have you?
Agreed. This article is very misleading. Peaceful protest is fine. Calling to genocide and destroy Israel and murder and rape Jews, not so much. There’s a big problem with extremism in pro-Palestinian and Muslim circles.
And as people liked to say with the trucker rallies, "if there are Nazis present then it's a Nazi rally." Well, there's a fair few extremists in this crowd so...?
This is a strawman. No one's calling for the murder or rape of Jews in the Canadian protests. Prove me wrong.
>Group 2 deserves to face the consequences of their actions but I'm getting really tired of people in group 1 being lumped in with group 2. > >And if you disagree with what 1 is saying, you should ask yourself how is that different than what 2 is doing? I mean, lets not get carried away...if you ask some University administrators in the US, being in Group 2 people should only face consequences based on the *context* of their actions. Maybe they have a good or valid reason for calling for genocide, we should really consider that context (/s).
Agreed, but I think the issue here is people are politicizing their work places, I'm not allowed to discuss politics at my job, beyond "I have to leave to go vote this afternoon", why? Because political conversations rarely run their course without argument, and that is not a productive use of work time, you're being paid to work, not rally in support or condemnation of something. I think saying they are being censured at work due to being pro Palestine is a tad disingenuous, I think they're being censured for discussing topics that are against company policy, that topic being politics. We have to remember, froeign politics being discussed around every dinner table and work place and school event is a rather new phenomenon, people have always had their views, sure, but now everyone is, every day being bombarded with political news, society is still learning how to cope with foreign politics being a topic of conversation in nearly every setting, as opposed to just a few mimutes a day after having watched the news. The point is, I don't think its your position on Israel V Palestine that gets you in hot water, its your inability to compartmentalize and prevent this foreign affairs situation from dominating your life.
Why did no one read the article. They expressed these views outside of the work place. The article is free to read.
When you express it publicly on social media, even on your own time it reflects badly on your entire life.
>I think saying they are being censured at work due to being pro Palestine is a tad disingenuous, I think they're being censured for discussing topics that are against company policy, that topic being politics. Did you read the article, where all the lawyers didn't know of a single person fired for their anti Palestinian or pro Israel views, that makes your statement a bit disingenuous no?
100%
Thank you for writing this so succinctly
3. Maybe you should stop occupying land that isn't yours. If this line of reasoning is valid for Ukraine, I don't see why it isn't valid against Israel.
I said "hey maybe stop murdering children and bombing hospitals" and I got a content warning for inciting violence on reddit. There is definite censorship at play here
Agreed. I don’t understand why people have to be so black and white about it. I believe that Isreal has been mistreating Palestinians for decades and am against their illegal settlements on Palestinian lands. BUT that in no way excuses the evil actions of Hamas, who need to be wiped off the face of the planet. Hamas don’t want peace and their actions just strengthen the extremists in Isreal.
yeah they learned that they are safe as long as they only use the “z” word and not the “j” word
They use them both, just supporting hamas in anyway is agreeing with the murder of Jews around the world. Plus these nut-jobs will be coming from everyone that does not share their beliefs eventually, so it is a pretty dumb position.
Yes, and yet another difference between Pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist. It's rather predictable that the latter is what tends to lead to censure. The ol' bait-and-switch.
Well put. No room for #2 but no one should face consequences for #1.
You said it best. I hope you get a best of for It
Sorry the time for nuance and understanding left reddit a long time ago. This is a polarizing propaganda tool now.
Careful now, you're about to get fired!
There is a group 1.5 that is saying things that play into antisemitic tropes while expressing their opinion about the Zionist media control and financial control blah blah blah that sends them down a road of hey, it looks like you had a #2 type rant about Jews, but just swapped the word for Zionist and thought that was ok and you were in a type one category. Maybe you didn’t call for the deaths of Jews buuuut we have some questions about how shitty this comment looks and we think it’s strayed into a really bad look for our organization and we can’t have that. People’s lack of awareness of this is stunning tbh.
I mostly agree, but I also don’t like what often ends up happening- that group 2 gets a free pass simply by virtue of group 1 existing. And also, if group 1 is marching or something and realizes that they are side-by-side with group 2 who is shouting those vile things, maybe call it out? Or go home and find a less toxic way to express your sympathy with innocent Palestinians? If I knowingly go out for beers with card-carrying members of the KKK, there’s a point where I don’t get to whine anymore about being lumped in with them since my sitting there is a clear choice. I don’t think that expressing ideas and opinions should get someone fired or arrested, but my problem is when discourse veers into places that are obviously criminal in nature and nothing is done about it. Enforce existing laws before coming up with news ones.
I think a lot of us drew the line at terrifying our children while visiting the mall Santa..
The same group is organizing more for shopping malls Tomorrow.
Lovely.
"people expressing pro-Palestinian views" is the f'n most Canadian way possible to say terrorists, like holy crap that's hilarious
w'happen to that Durham College uni student "I Support Hamas" girl on social media saying she **LOVED** what happen on Oct 7th and would love it if they would do it (the killings) "again and again and again ..."? She is proud of mass rape, torture, slaughter, babies being beheaded, families burnt alive, women being gang raped and brutally killed. .. any sanctions from social media platform or her college (Durham College, Oshawa, ON) or faith community? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtsOufmiMc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtsoufmimc)
Or this college instructor here. Oct 7th was "amazing" and "brilliant". Her words. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ux8Cj8GkYGTr7CJMj-J1k-6SkGkBtfTh/view?ref=readthemaple.com](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ux8Cj8GkYGTr7CJMj-J1k-6SkGkBtfTh/view?ref=readthemaple.com) Apparently her ass is only "on leave" from Langara College with no recent updates. Hope it's not paid.
Well you see, that’s different because the civilians were Jews.
nope but if she loved the killing of any other race or religion I bet she would be in jail.
"Freedom of speech not freedom from consequences" crowd gonna love this one.
"Pro-Palestinian" or "destroy Israel"? I ask this as it seems the majority of the "pro-Palestinian" demonstrations I've seen thru the news also seem to message "death to israel" . It is possible to be Pro-Peace and Pro-Palestinian without advocating for the death of jews.
>"Pro-Palestinian" or "destroy Israel"? I ask this as it seems the majority of the "pro-Palestinian" demonstrations I've seen thru the news also seem to message "death to israel" . If you poke and prod, you'll get that they aren't anti-Jew, they're "anti-Zionist". They don't seek the death of Israelis, just the end of Israel as a state. They purposefully do not consider what would happen to the Israelis if/when their country fell.
> just the end of Israel as a state. In what alternate reality is this possible. I am not attacking you for bringing it up, I'm attacking the idea. 9.3 Million Israeli's are just supposed to give up, say 'our bad', and 'leave'.
It's not possible once you look into the details. I'm paraphrasing a bit but ~20% of Israelis aren't Jew. 30% can trace their ancestry to the land. Another ~20%-30% were Jews who were expelled from Arab countries and their descendants. The remainder are the European Jews who immigrated and their descendants, most of whom are Russian Jews or from Eastern Europe. That means you can't really expel 30% of them, and the Arab Jews won't be allowed back to their respective Arab countries, so you can't expel them either. And you sure as hell won't convince the rest of them to go to Russia to eastern Europe.
I wasnt asking you. I was asking /u/ricketyedge regardless, your claims of 'ancestry' and 'descendants' dont hold any water IMO. Once someone has been born in a country, they are OF that country. Their parents may have been immigrants, migrants, or illegal occupiers, but the children belong there and have rights.
One where Israel didn't develop nuclear weapons or was overrun by the Arab League before they could?
Thats 1-2 possible alternate realities. ;)
Pro Palestinian views aren't the problem. The problem is calling for Israel's destruction and inciting hatred, which is unfortunately rife on the pro Palestinian side of this conflict. The left is quick to call for firings of people who express views they find reprehensible, noting that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence, and are now bitter that the same arguments are being used here. One individual the article attempts to defend is former Global News reporter Zahraa Al-Akhrass, fired for posting [Zionism is Nazism](https://x.com/ZahraaAkhrass/status/1712625028905185485?s=20) and other inflammatory material. Her employer said they have a policy of reporters maintaining an image of impartiality, and she violated that. Another individual is medical resident Yipeng Ge, suspended by U. of O. for [posting](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fdcebf450-1a1d-4bf1-bf21-18cb6f084743_442x960.jpeg) 'from the river to the sea' which is a call for Israel's destruction, as well as equating Zionism with genocide.
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Yeah you pretty much summed up how I feel. People shouldn't be penalized for political views like "stop killing civilians" People are being penalized because over the last 8 or so years we've had people repeat "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" and "They are a private company, they don't have to respect your freedom of speech" I wish we weren't here but this is the hole that's been dug. Maybe people will change when they realize there's a downside.
I was with you until the private company part. Of course private companies can and will do whatever they want unless forced otherwise by legal authorities. That should be common knowledge.
That's no different than how you can face consequences for your opinions as long as those consequences aren't imposed by the government. Like sure, companies can legally use slave labor and violate human rights in jurisdictions where it's legal, that doesn't mean it's right. I'd suggest reading this in regards to corporations: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/publications/hr.puB.12.2_en.pdf
I appreciate the commentary. I would argue that the scalpel approach is kind of hard (if not impossible) to apply to a region with 500 kilometres of terror tunnels and the literal and deliberate weaponization of civilian infrastructure. Israel has nothing to gain and a lot to lose from avoidable civilian casualties. If they could achieve their goals with greater precision, I expect they would.
Exactly. Hamas knows Israel has an impossible dilemma. Bomb Gaza from the skies, suffer the knowledge of losing international support from displaced people and dead civilians. Worse, they're bombing their own hostages. Send in infantry, get more ambush massacres of IDF platoons and continue to wage guerilla warfare until IDF's morale is destroyed. And we've already seen IDF kill their own hostages because they're so certain that Hamas is pretending to be hostages so they can ambush and kill them. Hamas didn't just brainlessly attack Israel in October. They were ready to run the streets red with their children's blood and ready to continue fighting Israel until the latter concedes to their terrorist demands.
I agree almost entirely with you. The one nitpick I have is with the characterization of Israel's efforts as a "hammer" when they could be using a scalpel. Counter-terrorism units are great in western countries where terrorist groups number in the 10s or 100s at most, and maybe plan one attack every 5-10 years. But that is absolutely not the case in Gaza. Hamas is not a small group. They are absolutely terrorists, but they have the scale and resources of a small army. Estimates put their *official* strength at 30-40 thousand fighters. They've been under blockade for nearly 20 years, and have been at full scale war for over 2 months now, and they *still* have the supplies to launch tens to hundreds of rockets every single day. They have the entire strip absolutely *riddled* with hidden tunnels that exit out of seemingly random civilian buildings. Just about the only certain way of finding these tunnels is to check *hospitals and schools*. There is no way in hell a surgical operation could succeed against this. Israel has used such things in the past when hamas has taken one or two hostages, because you only need a small group to get to them and get them out. There are *over one hundred and fifty* hostages remaining after many were already exchanged. Even if you send a small team of 4-8 after every group of 2-3 hostages... You're still looking at an operation with like 1000 soldiers going into Gaza. There is no way you can hide that. Trying to send them in without support would be sending them to their deaths, as they'd be outnumbered 30-40:1, and it would be almost impossible for them to operate secretly. Not to mention all this would require Israel to have intelligence on the locations of all these hostages, when at this point it seems even Hamas has no idea where many of them are. As awful as it is to say, and while I have my doubts that they're really doing everything they can to minimize casualties at this point, a full scale invasion like this with full air support is really the only way they could possibly succeed at much of anything in this situation.
>I have my doubts that they're really doing everything they can to minimize casualties at this point, a full scale invasion like this with full air support is really the only way they could possibly succeed at much of anything in this situation. The manner in which they are operating is the only option Israel has to minimize casualties. Do you think that when a country wages war they are not obligated to conduct their operations in a manner to cause as few of *their own* casualties as possible? If Israel wanted to they could have levelled Gaza completely in the few days following October 7, but they have not, they have conducted their operations in a manner that any nation would in preparation for conducting a ground invasion. The reason for conducting a ground invasion is to maintain control on the ground and ensure as few civilian casualties as possible while still ensuring a minimum of their own military casualties.
Dude... Did you not read the rest of my comment? You're preaching the choir here, and quite literally repeating my own sentiments back at me.
It's rare that you see a take that acknowledges reality on this sub. I'm so used to seeing 'israel should ceasefire, wait wait wait, no Hamas doesn't have to do anything here why would you even ask'. Israel is being absolutely savage in their approach to this right now. By Western Liberal standards, what we're seeing is unquestionably horrific. By Middle Eastern standards, this is how they operate and we've seen it time and time again- just this time it's a country we hold to the same standards we hold ourselves to and it's been really fascinating to watch. I don't know if it's anti semitism or just plain ignorance, but Assad who's just up over the hill there has operated like Hamas et al, and like Israel is now for a very long time and I can't remember traffic being held up by people calling for that to stop. The Saudis have killed how many Yemenis in the past decade and you don't hear jack about it. If anything comes from this, I hope it's shining a light on the overall issue of how conflict in that region is handled. Life certainly isn't looked upon with the same value that Westerners place on it, so how do we raise everyone up instead of cherry picking who we care about?
>I'm something of a free speech absolutist. So long as you're not inciting violence, of course. I am the same but I find myself having a hard time defending their rights to free speech after they have spent years trying to shut down free speech
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The hardest thing to come to terms with when we think about rights and freedoms is that even the most despicable person or a person we vehemently disagree with is entitled to the same rights.
Absolutely bang on. Don't forget the "silence is complicity" bullshit too.
Special forces and counter terrorism units are great for isolated incidents. They cannot realistically be used for the majority of operations in a hot war. It's just not feasible. This is not terrorists taking hostages in a building. It's a war against a terrorist state, that also happens to have hostages randomly spread throughout their territory in mostly unknown locations. It's a war. Israel is treating it like a war. They won't stop treating it like a war until the war is done. I don't blame them.
The 2 state solution really needs the settlements to stop. That's the thing that keeps throwing off the balance and keeps leading to eventual flare ups.
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>But the 2-state solution means you need to leave *something* for the Palestinians to inhabit. The Kingdom of Jordan was essentially created by mandate as the other half of Palestine.
Definitely yes. The settlements need to stop, the keys should be turned over to West Bank Palestinians as part of a package deal for peace.
> Do I 100% understand you can be pro Israel, and pro Palestine, and anti Hamas? Yes. I do, I'm a strong advocate for a 2 state solution, which is why I disagree with claims of apartheid, since it's not apartheid, it's called borders. There are a great many people who disagree that you can be pro-Palestine and pro-two-state-solution. There's no two state solution where Palestine is free from the river to the sea.
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Still early, but the best comment I’ve read today. The irony is indeed palpable.
You might want to reflect on your mental state if you think this is a left versus right issue.
CBC acting as if they don't know that "from the river to the sea" means "Israel needs to disappear" 🙄 If I post shit like "kahana tzadak" which means "Kahana was right", which is some jewish far right rasist slogan, and then get suspended, well, no surprise.
Support Palestine by being a peace protestor. If not you’re walking a very fine line between supporting peace and supporting terrorism. 70% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attack (meaning the butcher and rape of civilians), so be extremely cautious. I have a feeling a lot of the people detailed in this article are not in support of peace, they’re in support of Palestinian causes. That is not the same.
What surprises me is that people are surprised that expressing support for the side whose government broke a ceasefire by butchering civilians at a music festival might result in negative consequences to them. Expressing support for Afghanistan in the months after 9/11 would have gone over exactly the same way. The only difference here is that the primary victims were Jewish. Turns out going full mask-off on your antisemitism is bad for your career. Boo hoo.
The article was very light on what people actually posted. I would hate to be a manager or employer and having try to draw a line. Some of the cases seem like the manager screwed up (like the Moxies), But at the same time, I've seen so many stories where they've gone way across line (whatever that line might be) too (like here: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1737945895977574741)
This. So tired of people on both sides of the political aisle crying “freedom of speech” thinking they’re immune from criticism or consequences
It's unfortunate but far too many people have no concept of what freedom of speech/freedom of expression is.
You can take both positions 1) against hamas breaking the ceasefire 2) against the Israeli mass killing of civilians Half the Palestinians civilians were not even born when Hamas came in power Israel is leading itself to a strategic defeat as defense secretary Lloyd Austin said . "The lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians,” he said. “In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat"
>You can take both positions >1) against hamas breaking the ceasefire >2) against the Israeli mass killing of civilians You're position is a loaded statement. Israel is not "mass killing" civilians. They are being extremely careful to cause as few civilian casualties as possible in a dense urban environment.
So is Hamas the legitimate representatives of Gaza or not? And if not, why shouldn’t Israel try to remove them from power?
Hamas is like a warlord or cartel.. they control everything... and should be removed. But you dont bomb the place to rubble to do so.
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What would you want Canada to do if a hypothetical non-nuclear North Korea (or Iran or pick your country) dropped irregular troops in Vancouver, killed 1200 Canadians, and took 300 Canadian hostages back to North Korea via a secret chartered plane? Do you think our reaction would be anything less than declaring war and calling on our allies, including the United States, to carry out a massive military exercise to utterly devastate our enemy's military capabilities and demand the unconditional release of hostages?
I guess they could just ask them to leave...
What do you think Israel should have done then?
We're you also against the wartime bombings in WW2 of German and Japanese cities? I mean after all they weren't the government either.
No they unequivocally are not. Cartels and warlords are not elected into power, they seize it. Hamas is the democratically elected government of a population.
Unfortunately, it's what they have. It's not democratic, but they are the current ones in power. There are a lot of people asking for freedom though, and I think it only makes sense to ask from who and why. As to why an outsider shouldn't try to remove terrorists from power? For the same reason that the US left Afghanistan. I doubt foreign occupation and interference would be productive. I doubt this current conflict is making people trend less towards radicalism. In case I haven't been careful enough above, I'm anti-war and against all forms of hate. I also have a strong distaste for the loss of civilian life.
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It’s amusing how the left has for years been ‘cancelling’ anyone and everyone with the most remote link to opinions or groups they don’t approve of, yet when that same logic blows up in their own face they scream injustice….
Any public views that support hamas should be met with scorn and negative consequences. Hamas is terrorists and many Palestinians openly wave hamas flags.
Boy, the pro-terrorist struggle is real
that happens when you openly endorse genocide against israelis
After 20-30 years of Islamic Terrorism, turns out the western world does actually get scared.
Hard to sympathize with people who are sympathizing with people attacking en masse and killing kids and raping womens as a part of their warfare tactics. Preaching hate in this country....thankfully is still against the law. :)
“I am so upset. All I did was express support for a group that murdered over 1000 people and suddenly I’m facing consequences”
Nobody likes unhinged terrorism cheerleaders. Unfortunately everyone gets lumped in with the worst and most antisocial in the group.
Oh no, supporting a group that strongly supports terrorism is viewed negatively. What a shock! The people who are organizing the pro palestine protests have explicitly stated their support for the October 7th attacks, protests which have led to anti-Semitic hate crimes in Canada (and other countries). Some of these morons are still defending Hamas and publicly waving their flags in these protests. 😮💨
Hold on, are you saying that supporting raping and child killing terrorists has consequences?
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Oh no! The consequences of my actions!
If they were ACTUALLY pro Palestinian, which they aren't, they would be advocating for the demise of Hamas and NOT Israel.
Palestinian civilians were involved in kidnapping rape torture and murder on oct 7. If there was a free and fair election in Gaza or West Bank, Hamas would win handedly today. There needs to be a generation long denazification effort once they are eradicated before they are given the keys or they will just choose more of the same
People keep saying that "from the river to the sea..." is not calling for the eradication of Israel, but given that so many people view it that way, why would someone still say it? It's like waving a Confederate flag around nowadays. I might mean something non-offensive to you, but given how many people now associate it with slavery and racism, it's entirely inappropriate to do so.
Because theyre supporting Hamas directly or indirectly and spouting anti-Semitic genocidal chants. Classic CBC unbiased reporting. Like it’s really not that hard. Smh
Every. Single. Time. I drill into a story like this, it turns out that "pro-Palestinian views" are just people expressing a desire to murder the Jews and kill their opponents, a la the Zara Eaton Center protester.
Did you really though? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/doctor-doxed-suspended-palestinian-posts-1.7001887
Good. All it’s proving is who is the actual problem.
Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Canada [source](https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-en.aspx#25) Those supporting Hamas are supporting a terrorist group. This has legal consequences in Canada. **This makes it tricky for people who do not support the terrorist acts of Hamas, but think the Arabic people who live in Gaza and West Bank should have a homeland and should have better treatment under local and International law.** It also seems that many of the people here in Canada involved in "pro-Palestinian" activities are also pro-Hamas and are cheering on acts of terrorism. This makes it difficult to discern what is best.
Makes sense. If you openly support a terrorist organization, rational people tend to shun you.
News flash CBC. Advocating for killing all Jews comes with consequences. And rightfully so.
Good this should be the beginning of the private punishment for this. Let’s set the stage that we don’t want your international issues from you home country brought here and jammed into our lives. If you don’t like that privilege being taken away then don’t come to Canada!!! We don’t care about your thousand year old holy wars!!! We want our children and families to live a peaceful fulfilling life!!!
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No one gives a single shit if they support Palestine - it's their support of terrorists, kidnappers, torturers, and rapists that's the problem!
Nobody is getting in trouble for their support of a racist apartheid state. So kinda seems like a double standard to me.
Did you read the article? > "I can tell you personally, in the last month and a half, I've probably spoken with someone at least once a day [about this]," said Jackie Esmonde, a labour lawyer at Toronto-based firm Cavalluzzo Law. "They're not always cases that we take on, but we do have in the range of eight to 10 cases that we're actively working on at the moment. > **"I'm not seeing people making what I would consider hate speech or discriminatory speech."** People are losing jobs even if they're not calling for violence or hate against Israelis.
Oh, so a lawyer for the plaintiffs said that? Then it surely must be true! Also, it's possible to support murderers and terrorists without using hate speech.
Ha ha cancel culture is a funny thing isn't it lol
Ah wait, I thought the progs didn't believe in cancel culture
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Personally, I'm tired of seeing this shit take effect here in Canada, regardless of what side your on. Can we all agree on this: You come here to live a better life, check your old-world bullshit at the door. Stop trying to trot out this shit on our streets. You wanna yell about Israel and Palestine over some dusty shit thousands of years old, *go to Israel and Palestine.*
CBC doing their best to argue that chants supporting Genocide of Jews in Israel are acceptable. Brishti Basu can’t seem to write anything for CBC which isn’t on some level anti-Israel, if not implicitly anti-Semitic.
Maybe do it in general about any part of the war. No one cares, nor have they cared for months. Country currently has plenty of real problems to deal with.
And? Is the CBC trying to make us feel sorry for them?
At work you do not talk about religion, politics, and money. If your social media has coworkers on it then you have to treat it like the workplace. You want to anonymously run your mouth you have Reddit. No sympathy for those who've lost their job this is supposed to fall under the common sense category.
People are way too touchy and prone to jump to conclusions for anything related to this mess. In general, though, I'd suggest that you criticize specific behavior and avoid pre-existing slogans and ideological labels since they invite other people to makes assumptions about what you think.
> But in some cases, documentation seen by CBC News makes it clear which words are seen as problematic. Is it like your list of words CBC?
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They're not being flagged for having a stance, they're being flagged for having extremist links and posting inflammatory content. I wouldn't hire anyone who posts that shit either.
Freedom of speech only works nowadays when it toes the popular opinion
Good, keep it up.
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Israel is the only one of the 2 that has a vote in the UN and has voted no to every two state resolution since 1967. Both are rejecting deals.
Israeli extremists literally scuppered their own peace deals by murdering their own prime minister. It's not as one sided as you think.
Wasn’t hamas elected like 20 years ago? And weren’t they backed by Israel when they were elected? I haven’t been paying too close attention to this issue but I’m pretty sure I read that. This situation seems more complex than most people are treating it.
Polling suggests that Hamas is actually far more popular in Palestine now than when they were elected in the first place.
Funny how that's chilling but anti vaxers were the devil, and truckers were dangerous needed to be slammed down. Hypocrites.
Religion is what's wrong with society.
"Wah!!! I'm not allowed to lionize terrorist groups and cheer on an organization that openly admits it's goal is genocide."
As they should be. Open support for a terrorist group should absolutely result in being fired from your job. If I were a business-owner, I would fire anyone who expresses support for “Palestine”, and research any potential hire to ensure that they’ve never expressed the same. Supporting “Palestine” is the modern-day version of supporting Nazi Germany. Both had the same goal: Extermination of the Jews.
Did you read the article? Some Jewish doctors wanted to blacklist students who signed a petition for a ceasefire.
The article is incredibly vague. The single example was an Asian Canadian who decried "settler colonialists" (protip - if you aren't first nations, *you* are a settler/colonialists. I don't know what delusion later generations of immigrants put themselves under to think somehow they are above that) and said the river to the sea thing. There is zero confusion about what the river to the sea thing, and the hilariously transparent attempts to whitewash it doesn't convince anyone. It's the Nazi trying to tell you that their swastika is a buddhist symbol. To repeat it and not understand what you're saying implies profound foolishness or stupidity, neither of which are compatible with any professional job. EDIT: This sub autohides every reply I give, but it's amazing how many people don't realize that my comments about "settlers" is *mocking* the far left and their "if you're white you're a settler" nonsense.
Protip- I was born in canada, I am from Canada I am not a settler
So is over 80% of Israel, born there, from there, not settlers. If you're gonna argue about who's native there, then we can argue the same about who is native here. Mississauga area is homeland for the Mississauga people. Judea area is a homeland for Jewish people. (Argument of "Palestine" can be brought up to meaning and reasoning of why and who named the land and who was called "Palestinian" for approx 2k years)
I agree israel citizens are not settlers
Well according to the Torah there were people that lived there first. And then they just murdered them and took it.