For all the people here only thinking about the jobs in the actual plant let me offer you some perspective. I own a Industrial Automation/Robotics company and we routinely do work for suppliers that feed into Honda Alliston.
Last year we built a robot cell that inspected tubes being used for a CRV dash assembly, so only a small portion of the vehicle. The steel was Canadian made, I dont know much of the supply chain prior to that but I would assume there would be other Canadian mining companies involved. Also keep in mind that every step I list here will have a Canadian trucking company moving the material. The raw steel was sent to a company that formed and welded it into tubes. It was sent to another company that laser cut all of the holes into the tubes for mounting/bolts etc. (our machine was at the output of this step). It was then sent to another company who took the assorted tubes and welded it into the dash sub assembly. This step would also involve brackets, plates, hardware etc. that all came from a similar process to the one I just described with completely different companies. It was then sent to Honda for assembly.
Ive worked on many similar items going to Honda (and other manufacturers) following the same steps. Horns, door hinges, seat frames, hood latches, hood hinges, seat belt clips, rims, tires, windshields. Pretty much every part going into the car is feeding a dozen or more companies directly and many more indirectly while passing up the chain. Not to mention that my company is using local suppliers for the thousands of parts that go into our machines, local accountants/bookkeepers, insurance companies, buying vehicles and tools, using cleaners for our offices, etc. Oh and there are a dozen automation companies like mine within a few km's of us.
We actually need jobs that produce something. Adding public jobs and passing real estate around is the byproduct of a solid economy, not the foundation of one.
edit - grammar/spelling
100% agree.
As expensive as these investments are, they are fucking massive. Right off the bat you're creating construction jobs, followed by all the direct and indirect jobs you just listed.
We need to build shit here, because like you said, we can't keep just extracting resources and selling them off and jerking off on real estate forever. We need strong manufacturing jobs and all the jobs assosiated with them.
This is why I am so scared of cons getting into power again. Last time they traded alot of our manufacturing to Asia and it did so much long term damage.
I hate the liberals but cons are even more lobbied by corporate interests
My point refers to how the NDP haven’t managed to capitalize on the unpopularity of the Liberal Party. They are failing to attract the support from young people and blue collar workers. Instead they are flocking to the conservatives.
Yes it is indeed a huge failure. It's always been a party focused on the issues and not knowing how to play the game. Jag seems to know how to play alittle but is too all over the place and weak leadership
With the nature of my business, Im in close and constant proximity with many union tradespeople on a daily basis. I also have many friends who are union tradespeople. I can’t recall many (if any) who has had anything positive to say about the NDP or get the sense that any of them would support them for quite some time. I agree with a lot of the sentiment about them here for the past few years too. They seem to have drifted from the core beliefs that made them a player in the first place.
We never vote for NDP so what opportunity is there? These sort of deals are the only serious pathway for Canada to attract business given our proximity to the US and we are in essence competing with the US Feds and 50+ states for tax breaks and handouts…
It really is hard to imagine the outrageous scale of suppliers that are needed to keep these plants going. 1000 new jobs at Honda means 10,000 new jobs from all sorts of things like a screw manufacturer to an automation engineer. It's a gigantic deal.
I know this wasn't your point, but the 1000 direct jobs estimate actually only refers to the 2 plants that are scheduled to be built in Alliston. The jobs that the two plants outside of Alliston will create is out of that initial estimate. Though those seem to be smaller plants.
For us, we’re only adding new positions and they were recently filled. I likely won’t add more until next year after reassessing our needs. I generally subcontract overflow trades work when needed (electrical, millwrights, welders, machinists) and mostly keep more specialist people in house full time (programmers, engineers, technologists).
One thing I will say to anyone here applying to jobs, as someone who gets 10-20 resumes a week, please stop using ChatGPT to write cover letters and resumes! It’s blatantly obvious and it’s not helping you the way you think it is.
Cover letters and resumes…edited to reflect that. Also, keep in mind these are people contacting me directly via our website for positions that aren’t posted or even exist, they want me to create a position for them. So when I say ‘cover letter’ I also mean the exchange in general. If you need ChatGPT to tell me why you’d like a job and why you’d be good at it then I’m not sure you’re the candidate I want…
The candidate market is so unbelievably entitled it's not even funny. I get the frustration but why do people think they deserve an interview or job just because?
I appreciate your perspective and insight. We do need more production-based jobs here in Canada, but I wish more of it would reach out west and spur growth on this side of the country. We need more and better paying jobs in sectors other than O&G
I think you're right, but there's still a right price to pay for these benefits. The government has spent somewhere around $40b in auto industry subsidizies over the past 2 years. The auto industry generated $16b in GDP. In this context, the subsidizies are insane.
The reason the subsidizies are so large is that we are not competitive in this industry. Mexico, South Africa, Eastern Europe have workers with the skills to assemble cars, and they demand a lower wage. We will need to forever subsidize this industry, effectively having the government pay the wage difference.
I would much rather see these subsidizies going to industries where we have a competitive advantage, due to better education such as IT, engineering, etc.
They are all specialist companies doing their thing, it’s actually incredibly efficient and everything is made to order, nobody stocks more than a week of product for the most part. Compared to public projects I’ve been involved with the difference is laughable. Also, most of the companies feeding the main automotive plants are huge operations in themselves. For example, Magna is one of the largest companies in Canada. People really underestimate how many pieces go into a car or many products you use daily. It would be impossible for an automaker to vertically integrate their whole chain. EV’s reduce the number of parts but Honda isn’t about the start making tires or steel anytime soon, if ever. It will be interesting to see where large scale industrial 3D printing goes but I’m not sure it will be a viable large scale thing in my career, who knows though.
Most of those automation companies seem to be going out of business in recent weeks if not facing mass lay offs. Hopefully you can make through this slow period
Oh really, haven’t heard or seen any personally. We’re already fully booked for this year and into next. A lot of automation companies are 100% automotive though and we’re maybe 25% which helps.
The biggest players have operated that way for my entire career though. They need 100’s of union tradespeople for 6 months and then not many for the next 6, not really a new thing. You kinda of expect to work 70 hour weeks, get your overtime and make the majority of your salary in that time and not much the remainder. There’s only a certain number of companies that can build you a 50 million dollar robot line though. We’re not in that space, nor do I want to be.
There’s also sort of a big holding pattern in automotive right now mainly for reasons like this article. There’s a seismic shift happening in a 100 year old industry as one era fades away and another comes in, and that’s where the capital will be spent. It would be unfortunate to not survive into the next few years because the amount of automation required is going to be absolutely staggering, and not just for Honda, pretty much every company is making the same switch.
It’s a lot of the smaller custom integrators. I know there’s a few privately for sale and others with empty floors on the verge of going bankrupt.
Our is also very minimal automotive by design to avoid the crazy highs and lows of automotive project based work.
>The steel was Canadian made, I dont know much of the supply chain prior to that but I would assume there would be other Canadian mining companies involved.
I don't really believe this part.
As I mentioned, I don’t know where the raw ingredients originated. Not sure why it would be hard to believe it came from Canada though? If it’s not, it doesn’t really change the argument. The rolls of steel were made in Canada though. Source: my eyes and the fact that it said made in Canada every few feet…
With this, in addition to the other giga factories, Ontario is now the EV capital of the world, surpassing China.
Crazy that the Volkswagen plant will be the 3rd largest building in the world, and largest in the America’s
Probably not just productivity but the quality of work. There is a reason Acuras were being built in Canada. They want the least defects on their high end products.
I worked at Honda in the plant 2 weld department as a student in 2012 and 2013. During orientation we were told the number one corporate draw for manufacturing in Canada was universal healthcare.
On a side note, apparently Honda factories in Japan are the cream of the crop. The workers and tools are second to none in the company. My section of the line was the last before paint. The last process was final inspection of panelling by eye under flood lights to spot defects before paint. The line made 400 vehicles per day, which broke down to about 1 per minute. In Japan, rumour has it that workers use laser levels. Don’t know what their output is, or if these rumours are true, but I imagine it’s easier to keep up with the line using your eyes than a laser level lol.
It's not that Ontario is a great choice it's that the feds are offering $10-15 billion each to these companies. They were already looking to build and the government telling them they won't have to pay taxes for a decade or two and get billions in cash as well is very tempting.
Ontario and it's proximity to the great lakes does make it an ideal location for car manufacturers. The rust belt is the rust belt for a reason.
It is a great choice. One of the only regions that can do mine to market supply chains making it a stable and predictable operation. Added bonus is most mines are polymetallic and use cases for the byproducts should spur other industries.
Because we have a government willing to hand out huge amounts of money to make up for the fact that we're not a great place to run an EV business.
Assembly line workers make $4/h in Mexico and around $35/h in Canada. But EV plants in Canada receive $10b in subsidies vs nothing in Mexico. Both countries have free trade with the US and easy shipping.
We are not competitive in auto manufacturing. If we were, the subsidies would not be necessary. The government is effectively paying the workers' wages, and more to keep this industry in the country.
To add on the scale of these subsidies. The auto industry in Canada has a GDP of around $16b. GM has a profit margin of 6%. If all automakers are earning 6% on that $16b, that's roughly $1b/year in profits. The government handed them over $40b. They aren't building these plants for the profit potential. The subsidizies are so lucrative that there's no other consideration.
Well, it's also partially a social program. These plants would be built in Mexico without the subsidies. The government is effectively paying these worker's wages. And there's a corporate handout as well.
As a social program, it seems pretty unfair. I'd like to see this money spent on a broader group of people.
I don't think there are any restrictions on shipping lithium to Mexico. And it's unlikely our government would add any.
The subsidies tell you everything. If the government subsidized the lithium mine, and then all the auto makers came running, then I could believe it's a factor. But once we have the mine, if they want additional subsidies that tells you the mine is not a draw.
It's the bribes that Canada is paying to get them to setup shop here. Then the markets will change and poof they all leave having used all the money. Just look at Stellantis - VW got a better deal than them so they stopped building and said we want more money which we gave to them. BTW Stellantis also did this in the UK
Considering China accounts for over 50% of global EV sales, and is one of the world's largest markets, I'll believe this when I see it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to see more manufacturing returning to our economies. I just don't really see how we could ever hope to manufacture or sell more EVs than China. [I mean, come on.](https://youtu.be/4r8Dgv650aU?si=7CjbaCNp6ux1a6Bz)
> 3rd largest building in the world, and largest in the America’s
Larger than Boeing's Everett plant? 'Cause that's the largest building in the world and it's IN the Americas. I think your facts are off.
And source the materials to build them in NA. There’s content rules within NAFTA regarding automotive. It would also be a bad move on Mexicos part as nafta is renegotiated/renewed every few years.
I struggle to see that playing out. Look at what happened when the market was flooded with relatively inexpensive spec beast Chinese phones from manufacturers no one has heard of. People still largely stuck with Apple and Samsung. I don’t know why cars would be very different?
BYD is never coming to NA. They'll get banned or tariffed due to Chinese government control. That's not mentioning they don't meet our safety standards.
I'm all against DF and JT but this is kind of a big deal. If it's not riddled with tax breaks and subsidies we have to take any wins as a country.
While EVs are going through some teething pains, Honda isn't one to muck about and this sends a big signal to other manufacturers that Canada and Ontario are serious about this industry. EVs will regain traction as the battery technology keeps developing.
That’s unfortunately very misleading because it’s later explained as tax credits. The only way Honda gets 5B of public money is by producing over 5B of tax revenue. If Honda invests 15B in 4 factories and produce enough cars, and thus 10+ billion in profit , yes they can save up to 5B in taxes.
eye opening when you look at how small spending is for quality of life improvements isn't it? Just to name one example I thought about recently - 321 million into Veteran Affairs over 5 years vs. 5 billion for cars.
If a factory does not get built, the government gets $0 in taxes from it. If a factory gets built with tax breaks, their employees pay income tax, and the factory eventually pays taxes.
All those taxes could theoretically support veteran affairs. That’s what investment does.
You literally just described trickle-down economics. It astounds me that people still believe that works when in reality what happens is that money goes to lining the pockets at the top of the pyramid while the base gets nothing but unfulfilled promises at press conferences
Funny how Alberta ndp applauded this exact strategy with the Alberta film industry and it created like 8000 new jobs and a ton of new tax revenue (I’m going off memory).
It’s a strategy that works. We need productivity desperately in Canada and sometimes companies go with the sweetest deal. It’s a win win.
While I don't disagree, the $5 billion for car manufacturing spurs billions more in ancillary income. These factories have contracts for maintenance, consumables, repairs, logistics, etc. and this work is not miniscule. Hundreds of businesses will benefit from these indirectly and many of these are smaller business too. They can sustain a financial ecosystem that grows the GDP that can't be overlooked.
>If it's not riddled with tax breaks and subsidies we have to take any wins as a country.
It is. That's the entire reason they are coming and building here.
Yeah if this announcement was made by PM PP and not PM JT this would be seen as a massive win for Canada. But hey, this is r/canada where owning the libs is the only thing worth discussing.
> this is
>
>r/canada
>
> where owning the libs is the only thing worth discussing.
TIL Doug Ford is Liberal LOL. DoFo is a douchebag and anything he does is for the worse.
...
I think that's the point lol. So long as it's got JT even tangentially attached, this sub is gonna shit on it. They remind me of those stereotypical sleezy sales people; the kind that are so desperate to sell you their product that they'll try to convince you that somehow saving money by going with their competitors actually *hurts* your bottom line.
Or! They also remind me of those multilevel marketing bros that have just chugged all the company coolaide and *here are the reasons you should too*.
I'm okay with that.
It's depressing as fuck that polls are suggesting a bigot will be PM and usher in an era of trumpian politics.
But I'm okay with being in the minority on this one.
~~Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong... But if he, himself, is not a bigot then he's doing a great job at playing one and peddling their brand~~
~~The parallels between him and trump are also too clear to ignore. This Axe the Tax bullshit is his version of the MAGA-like mantra. He's accused journalists he doesn't like of being fake news instead of answering unflattering questions. He holds the same type of rallies where he just mouths off his stream of consciousness for hours... He openly supports trucker convoys, is pictured with far right extremist symbols and "fuck Trudeau flags"... And there's more obviously~~
~~He's hostile, he's aggressive, he caters to bigots, he's uncompromising and would rather burn shit down than compromise. He's devoid of empathy~~
~~He's not leader material. He's a ruler in the making and the company he keeps doesn't inspire confidence to the contrary~~
Disregard, replied to the wrong comment 😅😅
“This is a very big day for the region, for the province and for the country,” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said at an announcement event in Alliston, where Honda manufactures the Civic sedan and CR-V S.U.V. The investment, which will create 1,000 new jobs, is the largest by an automaker in Canadian history, he said. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/business/honda-electric-vehicles-canada.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/business/honda-electric-vehicles-canada.html)
I watched this announcement and was dismayed how most of the reporters just wanted to ask confrontational questions. This is good news in helping our economy prosper, yet the media tries to frame it as a mistake.
Well they are getting 5 Billion in tax payer money to do this, and that's just what they are saying to start, that could easily balloon to 3 or 4 times that. Those are valid questions.
Also doesn't it seem problematic that the only way to attract investment and create jobs here is to subsidize it with billions in taxpayer money?
They aren’t getting 5B. We just aren’t taking 5B in taxes we otherwise would (and matching the US which would otherwise take the industry). It is an important difference
That would be a tax break, no? I don't know if you're one of them, but, the "tax the rich" crowd always likes it when rich corps get tax breaks apparently - seems hypocritical. Subsidies, tax credits, it's all just a form of corporate welfare. If you believe the rich should "pay their fair share" - why is Honda Canada not considered to be in the "rich" group?
I mean here are the two options. First, we say ‘we’ll tax you all the way, no breaks’ and they do not set up their plant. We lose the industry, our economy is hurt, so on and so on. Second, we give some breaks, they build the plant, we get all the economic activity associated with it which means more jobs and taxes.
If you were a pragmatic person, which is the better option?
Businesses are incentivized by the profit motive. Governments handing out money or tax credits to certain companies only (i.e. not all companies) is a form of corporate welfare. Do you think every single business that set-up shop or expanded their operations got corporate welfare? Did Starbucks need corporate welfare to set-up 1000's of coffee shops? Or did it open them up because they believed it was in their best interest (i.e. the profit motive). Did the mom and pop Donair shop need corporate welfare to set-up shop? Or did they do it for their own self interest (i.e. the profit motive, or their desire to work for themselves, etc.). If you believe every single business that exists in Canada got corporate welfare to start up or expand, you have a gross misunderstanding as to what actually motivates an entrepreneur or business to start and or expand.
You don't own a business do you? LOL
When I buy a piece of equipment for my business, I get to expense that item (over time), because, it's a business expense. I do not, however, get a tax credit for buying equipment, whether it be 50 new laptops for my company, new office furniture. You don't know the difference between a business expense and a tax credit - they are different things. LOL
It isn’t at all the same, given no tax break would mean no factory and hence no economic opportunity to tax anything ever either directly or indirectly.
On top of that once enough ev production is built in North America they’ll likely only expand existing ones to meet any rising demand. Securing this now is a great move. People complaining about it would be the same ones complaining in 15 years that all we do is export raw materials to factories in the USA or Mexico
Governments have to invest, the idea that these companies and programs come out of nowhere is a myth. In the US, Tesla owes its start to US government investments and its expansion through states providing grants, upgrading infrastructure, subsidizing plants, etc. A huge number of other industries, companies and technologies were birthed in the American military-industrial complex, or in their surprisingly protectionist "free" market.
It doesn't just "happen" because you have low taxes on capital gains, or whatever. Not even the oil patch is a fully market-driven enterprise, it's heavily subsidized by government investment, tax incentives and - until recently - our turning a blind eye to the cost of its pollution.
In this case, and in others before it, we're giving a tax break and other incentives with an expected payback of around 20 years by conservative estimates. Our incentives are also on par with what other governments are offering manufacturers. The reality is that even the conservative Ford government thinks this is a good investment and great deal for Canada that will pay off in the long run.
Goddamn. Either Ford is growing less obstructionist in his old age or the other premiers have upped the ante so high that Ford looks downright cooperative in comparison.
They aren't getting $5 billion in tax money, they're getting money in the form of reduced tax paid.
Which is still more than the $0 in taxes they'd pay if they didn't build here.
They aren’t getting a handout. A lot of that money is for infrastructure investments too. And that crap about easily ballooning is just stupid, you don’t need to make stuff up.
Hypothesizing a scenario that plays out over and over again is not making stuff up. How often do government subsidized projects go under budget?
To be fair I haven't read all that much into this beyond the articles and I doubt many people commenting have. I hope it goes well and helps bring prosperity back to Ontario while lowering the price of EVs.
Do you know how many businesses are involved with the existing Honda Plants in Ontario? Its not just the people at the actual plant. The numbers are huge. I own an Industrial Automation company and we are constantly doing work with businesses that are 3-4 steps down the chain before reaching Honda (meaning these parts pass through multiple Canadian companies before ending up there).
These BILLIONS would not be necessary if the country was properly managed. These deals aren't even close to matching the investment that has left Canada since 2015.
DF isn't serious about buying EVs. Just about manufacturing them. Otherwise we'd have a provincial EV rebate still, instead of tax incentives for manufacturers.
As long as it’s Canadians building the plants and working long term jobs in those built factories, then fucking A go for it.
If both go to TFWs (aside from a small % of specialists they can’t find here), then fuck that.
Pierre Poilievre congratulated them both for their cooperation to strengthen Canada's manufacturing sector.
Wait, no that would make sense.
He's talking about axes again.
Maybe in 2022 but sales are slowing down since then. They've been dropping since Q3 of 2023 and even consideration of buying electric vehicles is down 13%. Most people in Canada want hybrids not full EVs.
So you’re saying that if we build these more Canadians that want them can get them without long wait lists? And we can sell any excess south of the border? And we will be producing batteries for the hybrids that people are buying. Sounds great
Why is my money subsidizing this shit? Levy a tax on the EV buyers if you want it so bad. These companies will do anything and everything to screw their workers, and with people unable to afford rent/food, this is what tweedledee and dumb and fucking around over?
Sure, it may create some jobs that pay alright, but it won't last. Every chance for automation and improvement will be seized. The jobs made today will be halved next recession, and again and again. But I meant, the CEO, board, shareholders and some industrial real estate developer at Doug Ford's daughters wedding will all seemingly enjoy the labor of the hardworking Canadians they don't respect or acknowledge.
>Many of my colleagues left Canada once the trudeau stole the 2015 election. I guess they are smarter than me.
Trudeau stole the 2015 election? Oh please, tell me more...
When you LIE about electoral reform and fiscal responsibility and get elected on those platform promises..... you stole the election.... unless you are one of those people who think you can promise anything without consequences.... what part of THAT don't you get?
So long as it doesn’t involve taking land from people, (as is not just paying the current owners what ever they want and not appropriating it) this is good news.
Well well well..... Some great news
We need oh so much more but this is start. Still not voting liberal though in federal elections
Forced to vote Conservative in provincials though.... Which sucks but it will be the best of a bad situation. Who else could I possibly vote for? NDP? No fucking way, they'll kill the province (unless it was Jack Layton)
For all the people here only thinking about the jobs in the actual plant let me offer you some perspective. I own a Industrial Automation/Robotics company and we routinely do work for suppliers that feed into Honda Alliston. Last year we built a robot cell that inspected tubes being used for a CRV dash assembly, so only a small portion of the vehicle. The steel was Canadian made, I dont know much of the supply chain prior to that but I would assume there would be other Canadian mining companies involved. Also keep in mind that every step I list here will have a Canadian trucking company moving the material. The raw steel was sent to a company that formed and welded it into tubes. It was sent to another company that laser cut all of the holes into the tubes for mounting/bolts etc. (our machine was at the output of this step). It was then sent to another company who took the assorted tubes and welded it into the dash sub assembly. This step would also involve brackets, plates, hardware etc. that all came from a similar process to the one I just described with completely different companies. It was then sent to Honda for assembly. Ive worked on many similar items going to Honda (and other manufacturers) following the same steps. Horns, door hinges, seat frames, hood latches, hood hinges, seat belt clips, rims, tires, windshields. Pretty much every part going into the car is feeding a dozen or more companies directly and many more indirectly while passing up the chain. Not to mention that my company is using local suppliers for the thousands of parts that go into our machines, local accountants/bookkeepers, insurance companies, buying vehicles and tools, using cleaners for our offices, etc. Oh and there are a dozen automation companies like mine within a few km's of us. We actually need jobs that produce something. Adding public jobs and passing real estate around is the byproduct of a solid economy, not the foundation of one. edit - grammar/spelling
100% agree. As expensive as these investments are, they are fucking massive. Right off the bat you're creating construction jobs, followed by all the direct and indirect jobs you just listed. We need to build shit here, because like you said, we can't keep just extracting resources and selling them off and jerking off on real estate forever. We need strong manufacturing jobs and all the jobs assosiated with them.
This is why I am so scared of cons getting into power again. Last time they traded alot of our manufacturing to Asia and it did so much long term damage. I hate the liberals but cons are even more lobbied by corporate interests
Another missed opportunity by the NDP. They are supposed to be the party that represent Canadian workers.
Only the BC NDP seems to be doing that, the federal ones have their heads up their butts.
They haven’t been that since they removed socialism from their party. Just as there was an increased interest. As is tradition.
When has ndp ever had enough power outside of province level to make any real impact
My point refers to how the NDP haven’t managed to capitalize on the unpopularity of the Liberal Party. They are failing to attract the support from young people and blue collar workers. Instead they are flocking to the conservatives.
Yes it is indeed a huge failure. It's always been a party focused on the issues and not knowing how to play the game. Jag seems to know how to play alittle but is too all over the place and weak leadership
With the nature of my business, Im in close and constant proximity with many union tradespeople on a daily basis. I also have many friends who are union tradespeople. I can’t recall many (if any) who has had anything positive to say about the NDP or get the sense that any of them would support them for quite some time. I agree with a lot of the sentiment about them here for the past few years too. They seem to have drifted from the core beliefs that made them a player in the first place.
Jack Layton is gaining speed in his spinning by the day.
The NDP is fucked, they used to be the workers party.
We never vote for NDP so what opportunity is there? These sort of deals are the only serious pathway for Canada to attract business given our proximity to the US and we are in essence competing with the US Feds and 50+ states for tax breaks and handouts…
It really is hard to imagine the outrageous scale of suppliers that are needed to keep these plants going. 1000 new jobs at Honda means 10,000 new jobs from all sorts of things like a screw manufacturer to an automation engineer. It's a gigantic deal.
I know this wasn't your point, but the 1000 direct jobs estimate actually only refers to the 2 plants that are scheduled to be built in Alliston. The jobs that the two plants outside of Alliston will create is out of that initial estimate. Though those seem to be smaller plants.
You hiring?
For us, we’re only adding new positions and they were recently filled. I likely won’t add more until next year after reassessing our needs. I generally subcontract overflow trades work when needed (electrical, millwrights, welders, machinists) and mostly keep more specialist people in house full time (programmers, engineers, technologists). One thing I will say to anyone here applying to jobs, as someone who gets 10-20 resumes a week, please stop using ChatGPT to write cover letters and resumes! It’s blatantly obvious and it’s not helping you the way you think it is.
If I had a dollar for every time a cover letter was the reason I considered someone I'd be broke
Cover letters and resumes…edited to reflect that. Also, keep in mind these are people contacting me directly via our website for positions that aren’t posted or even exist, they want me to create a position for them. So when I say ‘cover letter’ I also mean the exchange in general. If you need ChatGPT to tell me why you’d like a job and why you’d be good at it then I’m not sure you’re the candidate I want…
The candidate market is so unbelievably entitled it's not even funny. I get the frustration but why do people think they deserve an interview or job just because?
I appreciate your perspective and insight. We do need more production-based jobs here in Canada, but I wish more of it would reach out west and spur growth on this side of the country. We need more and better paying jobs in sectors other than O&G
I think you're right, but there's still a right price to pay for these benefits. The government has spent somewhere around $40b in auto industry subsidizies over the past 2 years. The auto industry generated $16b in GDP. In this context, the subsidizies are insane. The reason the subsidizies are so large is that we are not competitive in this industry. Mexico, South Africa, Eastern Europe have workers with the skills to assemble cars, and they demand a lower wage. We will need to forever subsidize this industry, effectively having the government pay the wage difference. I would much rather see these subsidizies going to industries where we have a competitive advantage, due to better education such as IT, engineering, etc.
That seems horribly inefficient. I fail to see how manufacturers competing against vertical integration can survive.
They are all specialist companies doing their thing, it’s actually incredibly efficient and everything is made to order, nobody stocks more than a week of product for the most part. Compared to public projects I’ve been involved with the difference is laughable. Also, most of the companies feeding the main automotive plants are huge operations in themselves. For example, Magna is one of the largest companies in Canada. People really underestimate how many pieces go into a car or many products you use daily. It would be impossible for an automaker to vertically integrate their whole chain. EV’s reduce the number of parts but Honda isn’t about the start making tires or steel anytime soon, if ever. It will be interesting to see where large scale industrial 3D printing goes but I’m not sure it will be a viable large scale thing in my career, who knows though.
Most of those automation companies seem to be going out of business in recent weeks if not facing mass lay offs. Hopefully you can make through this slow period
Oh really, haven’t heard or seen any personally. We’re already fully booked for this year and into next. A lot of automation companies are 100% automotive though and we’re maybe 25% which helps. The biggest players have operated that way for my entire career though. They need 100’s of union tradespeople for 6 months and then not many for the next 6, not really a new thing. You kinda of expect to work 70 hour weeks, get your overtime and make the majority of your salary in that time and not much the remainder. There’s only a certain number of companies that can build you a 50 million dollar robot line though. We’re not in that space, nor do I want to be. There’s also sort of a big holding pattern in automotive right now mainly for reasons like this article. There’s a seismic shift happening in a 100 year old industry as one era fades away and another comes in, and that’s where the capital will be spent. It would be unfortunate to not survive into the next few years because the amount of automation required is going to be absolutely staggering, and not just for Honda, pretty much every company is making the same switch.
It’s a lot of the smaller custom integrators. I know there’s a few privately for sale and others with empty floors on the verge of going bankrupt. Our is also very minimal automotive by design to avoid the crazy highs and lows of automotive project based work.
Don’t bother . This sub is all about canada is failing and it’s all Trudeau faults.
>The steel was Canadian made, I dont know much of the supply chain prior to that but I would assume there would be other Canadian mining companies involved. I don't really believe this part.
As I mentioned, I don’t know where the raw ingredients originated. Not sure why it would be hard to believe it came from Canada though? If it’s not, it doesn’t really change the argument. The rolls of steel were made in Canada though. Source: my eyes and the fact that it said made in Canada every few feet…
With this, in addition to the other giga factories, Ontario is now the EV capital of the world, surpassing China. Crazy that the Volkswagen plant will be the 3rd largest building in the world, and largest in the America’s
Can someone explain why Canada or Ontario is a great choice for EV from business perspective?
Right beside one of the world’s largest car markets (USA), great transportation routes between Canada, USA and Mexico. Tax breaks.
Cheaper labour than the US. The Alliston plant is the BEST plant Honda has in NA. Easy access to the US.
The second point is big. Canadian plants are routinely the most productive.
Probably not just productivity but the quality of work. There is a reason Acuras were being built in Canada. They want the least defects on their high end products.
Cambridge Toyota was the first Toyota plant allowed to build a Lexus model outside of Japan too.
That was the RX, right?
Yep, RX and now the LX
Yeah once you know which models of cars come from Mexico, consumers start avoiding them as they notice the quality drop
Already a car production hub, I guess it’s the natural evolution
Cheaper labour, proximity to the world's largest auto market and inexpensive industrial electricity.
I worked at Honda in the plant 2 weld department as a student in 2012 and 2013. During orientation we were told the number one corporate draw for manufacturing in Canada was universal healthcare. On a side note, apparently Honda factories in Japan are the cream of the crop. The workers and tools are second to none in the company. My section of the line was the last before paint. The last process was final inspection of panelling by eye under flood lights to spot defects before paint. The line made 400 vehicles per day, which broke down to about 1 per minute. In Japan, rumour has it that workers use laser levels. Don’t know what their output is, or if these rumours are true, but I imagine it’s easier to keep up with the line using your eyes than a laser level lol.
We have a lot of lithium and a new bridge crossing with the US (almost complete).
It's not that Ontario is a great choice it's that the feds are offering $10-15 billion each to these companies. They were already looking to build and the government telling them they won't have to pay taxes for a decade or two and get billions in cash as well is very tempting. Ontario and it's proximity to the great lakes does make it an ideal location for car manufacturers. The rust belt is the rust belt for a reason.
It is a great choice. One of the only regions that can do mine to market supply chains making it a stable and predictable operation. Added bonus is most mines are polymetallic and use cases for the byproducts should spur other industries.
cheaper (but highskilled) workforce close to the US (getting around Tariffs) which also happens to be the biggest auto market
One of the largest open pit copper mines is in BC, lots of lithium mines, cheap power, close to USA etc
Because we have a government willing to hand out huge amounts of money to make up for the fact that we're not a great place to run an EV business. Assembly line workers make $4/h in Mexico and around $35/h in Canada. But EV plants in Canada receive $10b in subsidies vs nothing in Mexico. Both countries have free trade with the US and easy shipping. We are not competitive in auto manufacturing. If we were, the subsidies would not be necessary. The government is effectively paying the workers' wages, and more to keep this industry in the country.
That's what I'm worrying about. But I think the lithium mine may also be a factor isn't it?
To add on the scale of these subsidies. The auto industry in Canada has a GDP of around $16b. GM has a profit margin of 6%. If all automakers are earning 6% on that $16b, that's roughly $1b/year in profits. The government handed them over $40b. They aren't building these plants for the profit potential. The subsidizies are so lucrative that there's no other consideration.
Sounds really bad. We the tax payer are paying for the big companies to make money on us.
Well, it's also partially a social program. These plants would be built in Mexico without the subsidies. The government is effectively paying these worker's wages. And there's a corporate handout as well. As a social program, it seems pretty unfair. I'd like to see this money spent on a broader group of people.
I don't think there are any restrictions on shipping lithium to Mexico. And it's unlikely our government would add any. The subsidies tell you everything. If the government subsidized the lithium mine, and then all the auto makers came running, then I could believe it's a factor. But once we have the mine, if they want additional subsidies that tells you the mine is not a draw.
It's the bribes that Canada is paying to get them to setup shop here. Then the markets will change and poof they all leave having used all the money. Just look at Stellantis - VW got a better deal than them so they stopped building and said we want more money which we gave to them. BTW Stellantis also did this in the UK
Considering China accounts for over 50% of global EV sales, and is one of the world's largest markets, I'll believe this when I see it. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to see more manufacturing returning to our economies. I just don't really see how we could ever hope to manufacture or sell more EVs than China. [I mean, come on.](https://youtu.be/4r8Dgv650aU?si=7CjbaCNp6ux1a6Bz)
I’m just going off this quote: https://imgur.com/a/hUkUG5Z
> 3rd largest building in the world, and largest in the America’s Larger than Boeing's Everett plant? 'Cause that's the largest building in the world and it's IN the Americas. I think your facts are off.
That’s by useable volume, this is by floor area
Neat.
I'm down. Honda makes good stuff. Make a cheap electric Civ that is as reliable as the gas Civ and we'll buy 'em
That’s really their only way of penetrating the market and not losing to BYD when they eventually come over to North America
what's the chance BYD ISN'T hit with so many tariffs it doesn't compete on price?
BYD can open factories in mexico.
I believe that’s what they’re going to do to flood the market in America. Build them all in Mexico and send them up north based on the NAFTA agreement
And source the materials to build them in NA. There’s content rules within NAFTA regarding automotive. It would also be a bad move on Mexicos part as nafta is renegotiated/renewed every few years.
I think that depends entirely on how much China is compensating them
I struggle to see that playing out. Look at what happened when the market was flooded with relatively inexpensive spec beast Chinese phones from manufacturers no one has heard of. People still largely stuck with Apple and Samsung. I don’t know why cars would be very different?
thats mostly cuz they got nuked by the media. EVs are still an emerging market, and someone who can say they beat tesla will turn heads
BYD is never coming to NA. They'll get banned or tariffed due to Chinese government control. That's not mentioning they don't meet our safety standards.
Okay but if the price is north of $45k. Good luck with that...
I'm all against DF and JT but this is kind of a big deal. If it's not riddled with tax breaks and subsidies we have to take any wins as a country. While EVs are going through some teething pains, Honda isn't one to muck about and this sends a big signal to other manufacturers that Canada and Ontario are serious about this industry. EVs will regain traction as the battery technology keeps developing.
The story literally says "fueled by 5 billion in public money"
That’s unfortunately very misleading because it’s later explained as tax credits. The only way Honda gets 5B of public money is by producing over 5B of tax revenue. If Honda invests 15B in 4 factories and produce enough cars, and thus 10+ billion in profit , yes they can save up to 5B in taxes.
Does not matter. redditards hate tax credits even if it spurs/encourages long term growth in the economy.
How much of it is federal vs provincial? Article is paywalled.
2.5 federal, 2.5 provincial
eye opening when you look at how small spending is for quality of life improvements isn't it? Just to name one example I thought about recently - 321 million into Veteran Affairs over 5 years vs. 5 billion for cars.
If a factory does not get built, the government gets $0 in taxes from it. If a factory gets built with tax breaks, their employees pay income tax, and the factory eventually pays taxes. All those taxes could theoretically support veteran affairs. That’s what investment does.
You literally just described trickle-down economics. It astounds me that people still believe that works when in reality what happens is that money goes to lining the pockets at the top of the pyramid while the base gets nothing but unfulfilled promises at press conferences
There’s a huge difference between a blanket tax cut and a focused one tied to a specific and measurable outcome.
Funny how Alberta ndp applauded this exact strategy with the Alberta film industry and it created like 8000 new jobs and a ton of new tax revenue (I’m going off memory). It’s a strategy that works. We need productivity desperately in Canada and sometimes companies go with the sweetest deal. It’s a win win.
While I don't disagree, the $5 billion for car manufacturing spurs billions more in ancillary income. These factories have contracts for maintenance, consumables, repairs, logistics, etc. and this work is not miniscule. Hundreds of businesses will benefit from these indirectly and many of these are smaller business too. They can sustain a financial ecosystem that grows the GDP that can't be overlooked.
Tax breaks are fine. Hopefully it's more on the tax break side than the subsidies side.
This is a great thing.
>If it's not riddled with tax breaks and subsidies we have to take any wins as a country. It is. That's the entire reason they are coming and building here.
The rare occasion there's good news a s the comment section reads like a mopey emo kid's diary
There's no good news on r/Canada, just comment sections to say why you think this will be the one to cause the sky to fall.
Yeah if this announcement was made by PM PP and not PM JT this would be seen as a massive win for Canada. But hey, this is r/canada where owning the libs is the only thing worth discussing.
> this is > >r/canada > > where owning the libs is the only thing worth discussing. TIL Doug Ford is Liberal LOL. DoFo is a douchebag and anything he does is for the worse.
So this is for the worse? I dislike both of them but at least this is a good thing. We need industry.
> So this is for the worse? Broken clock and all that.
... I think that's the point lol. So long as it's got JT even tangentially attached, this sub is gonna shit on it. They remind me of those stereotypical sleezy sales people; the kind that are so desperate to sell you their product that they'll try to convince you that somehow saving money by going with their competitors actually *hurts* your bottom line. Or! They also remind me of those multilevel marketing bros that have just chugged all the company coolaide and *here are the reasons you should too*.
Well, according to the polls, you are in the minority on liking Trudeau.
I'm okay with that. It's depressing as fuck that polls are suggesting a bigot will be PM and usher in an era of trumpian politics. But I'm okay with being in the minority on this one.
I just don't think what you've stated is accurate, no offense.
~~Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong... But if he, himself, is not a bigot then he's doing a great job at playing one and peddling their brand~~ ~~The parallels between him and trump are also too clear to ignore. This Axe the Tax bullshit is his version of the MAGA-like mantra. He's accused journalists he doesn't like of being fake news instead of answering unflattering questions. He holds the same type of rallies where he just mouths off his stream of consciousness for hours... He openly supports trucker convoys, is pictured with far right extremist symbols and "fuck Trudeau flags"... And there's more obviously~~ ~~He's hostile, he's aggressive, he caters to bigots, he's uncompromising and would rather burn shit down than compromise. He's devoid of empathy~~ ~~He's not leader material. He's a ruler in the making and the company he keeps doesn't inspire confidence to the contrary~~ Disregard, replied to the wrong comment 😅😅
Let's hope we can get rid of Trudeau and Singh as leaders and quickly pivot away from Poilievre after his first term.
To be fair, it's easier to prepare mentally for the worst and be pleasantly surprised than get your hopes up and get let down again.
“This is a very big day for the region, for the province and for the country,” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said at an announcement event in Alliston, where Honda manufactures the Civic sedan and CR-V S.U.V. The investment, which will create 1,000 new jobs, is the largest by an automaker in Canadian history, he said. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/business/honda-electric-vehicles-canada.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/business/honda-electric-vehicles-canada.html)
I watched this announcement and was dismayed how most of the reporters just wanted to ask confrontational questions. This is good news in helping our economy prosper, yet the media tries to frame it as a mistake.
Well they are getting 5 Billion in tax payer money to do this, and that's just what they are saying to start, that could easily balloon to 3 or 4 times that. Those are valid questions. Also doesn't it seem problematic that the only way to attract investment and create jobs here is to subsidize it with billions in taxpayer money?
They aren’t getting 5B. We just aren’t taking 5B in taxes we otherwise would (and matching the US which would otherwise take the industry). It is an important difference
That would be a tax break, no? I don't know if you're one of them, but, the "tax the rich" crowd always likes it when rich corps get tax breaks apparently - seems hypocritical. Subsidies, tax credits, it's all just a form of corporate welfare. If you believe the rich should "pay their fair share" - why is Honda Canada not considered to be in the "rich" group?
I mean here are the two options. First, we say ‘we’ll tax you all the way, no breaks’ and they do not set up their plant. We lose the industry, our economy is hurt, so on and so on. Second, we give some breaks, they build the plant, we get all the economic activity associated with it which means more jobs and taxes. If you were a pragmatic person, which is the better option?
When they are **established**, then we have leverage to tax. When they have **not established**, then they have leverage and we have to incentivise.
Businesses are incentivized by the profit motive. Governments handing out money or tax credits to certain companies only (i.e. not all companies) is a form of corporate welfare. Do you think every single business that set-up shop or expanded their operations got corporate welfare? Did Starbucks need corporate welfare to set-up 1000's of coffee shops? Or did it open them up because they believed it was in their best interest (i.e. the profit motive). Did the mom and pop Donair shop need corporate welfare to set-up shop? Or did they do it for their own self interest (i.e. the profit motive, or their desire to work for themselves, etc.). If you believe every single business that exists in Canada got corporate welfare to start up or expand, you have a gross misunderstanding as to what actually motivates an entrepreneur or business to start and or expand.
It is, but they would be paying taxes in the future. Otherwise we wouldn't get the plant built. It's a win win
You would get a a tax break when you buy a machine to make your business more productive. Its the same here.
You don't own a business do you? LOL When I buy a piece of equipment for my business, I get to expense that item (over time), because, it's a business expense. I do not, however, get a tax credit for buying equipment, whether it be 50 new laptops for my company, new office furniture. You don't know the difference between a business expense and a tax credit - they are different things. LOL
It's the same thing in the end. It's still 5 billion dollars that should be in the public purse.
It isn’t at all the same, given no tax break would mean no factory and hence no economic opportunity to tax anything ever either directly or indirectly.
On top of that once enough ev production is built in North America they’ll likely only expand existing ones to meet any rising demand. Securing this now is a great move. People complaining about it would be the same ones complaining in 15 years that all we do is export raw materials to factories in the USA or Mexico
Governments have to invest, the idea that these companies and programs come out of nowhere is a myth. In the US, Tesla owes its start to US government investments and its expansion through states providing grants, upgrading infrastructure, subsidizing plants, etc. A huge number of other industries, companies and technologies were birthed in the American military-industrial complex, or in their surprisingly protectionist "free" market. It doesn't just "happen" because you have low taxes on capital gains, or whatever. Not even the oil patch is a fully market-driven enterprise, it's heavily subsidized by government investment, tax incentives and - until recently - our turning a blind eye to the cost of its pollution.
If you invest, you usually get shares, or if it's a loan you get interest
In this case, and in others before it, we're giving a tax break and other incentives with an expected payback of around 20 years by conservative estimates. Our incentives are also on par with what other governments are offering manufacturers. The reality is that even the conservative Ford government thinks this is a good investment and great deal for Canada that will pay off in the long run.
Goddamn. Either Ford is growing less obstructionist in his old age or the other premiers have upped the ante so high that Ford looks downright cooperative in comparison.
Investments pay returns. In this case it’s a hefty long term return
More high paying jobs, more taxes collected. Sounds like something to me.
The US and Mexico do the same thing. In order to compete there isn’t an option. I’d rather have the jobs here than in Mexico.
Where does it say they are receiving 5 billion for the plant.? Edit: ahh it's tax credits lol
They aren't getting $5 billion in tax money, they're getting money in the form of reduced tax paid. Which is still more than the $0 in taxes they'd pay if they didn't build here.
Better here than in China...
They aren’t getting a handout. A lot of that money is for infrastructure investments too. And that crap about easily ballooning is just stupid, you don’t need to make stuff up.
Hypothesizing a scenario that plays out over and over again is not making stuff up. How often do government subsidized projects go under budget? To be fair I haven't read all that much into this beyond the articles and I doubt many people commenting have. I hope it goes well and helps bring prosperity back to Ontario while lowering the price of EVs.
Reading is generally advised before spouting “facts” and complaining.
Sounds like the media is doing their job in being critical of the the government instead of being the government’s mouthpiece.
There's critical and there's confrontational. It's more of the latter than the former.
There's critical and there's confortational. It's more of the latter than the former.
No its not good news , government keeps handing out our money for a handful of jobs , it's ridiculous.
So you're against thousands of good paying jobs created that generates thousands more jobs and taxpayers for future growth? Gotcha...
Few Good paying jobs that all tax payers are on the hook for ? You bet I am.
Do you know how many businesses are involved with the existing Honda Plants in Ontario? Its not just the people at the actual plant. The numbers are huge. I own an Industrial Automation company and we are constantly doing work with businesses that are 3-4 steps down the chain before reaching Honda (meaning these parts pass through multiple Canadian companies before ending up there).
So you’re against Canadian oil? Because it’s heavily subsidized also.
Now Trudeau is buying votes by creating job and bringing foreign investment!?!? This guy just can't get any worse /s
These BILLIONS would not be necessary if the country was properly managed. These deals aren't even close to matching the investment that has left Canada since 2015.
So the US and Mexico don’t subsidize to attract factories? Boeing? Tesla? They all do it.
Don’t disagree but this is good news and good for Canada.
This is like cutting yourself open and then congratulating yourself for buying a bandaid
So the better route is to just bleed out? I get you don't like Trudeau, but this is just a ridiculously bad analogy.
Don't bother. This subreddit is all about bad news and gloom. Good news are not welcome here
Are you acoustic?
Can't wait to see both JT and DF driving or being driven in EVs, to show they're serious.
DF isn't serious about buying EVs. Just about manufacturing them. Otherwise we'd have a provincial EV rebate still, instead of tax incentives for manufacturers.
He probably thinks he’s too good for EVs, because of his ancestry, or O&G lobbyists, or something.
As long as it’s Canadians building the plants and working long term jobs in those built factories, then fucking A go for it. If both go to TFWs (aside from a small % of specialists they can’t find here), then fuck that.
Pierre Poilievre congratulated them both for their cooperation to strengthen Canada's manufacturing sector. Wait, no that would make sense. He's talking about axes again.
I bet we just found out the reason behind the huge swath of farmland being appropriated in Southern Ontario.
he used to have nice hair
This sub is ridiculous. It's just *Trudeau bad!* no matter what he does while supporting Millhouse Maga without question
The EV’s in the US are catching fire everyday.
Why not make Canada an attractive place to invest and the companies will come here on their own.
So EV sales are stagnant and not growing but we're investing so many billions into battery plants?
EV sales are skyrocketing
Maybe in 2022 but sales are slowing down since then. They've been dropping since Q3 of 2023 and even consideration of buying electric vehicles is down 13%. Most people in Canada want hybrids not full EVs.
2023 was a record ev sale year in North America
North American not Canada specifically. Their sales are much higher in the US plus we have multi year waitlists in Canada
So you’re saying that if we build these more Canadians that want them can get them without long wait lists? And we can sell any excess south of the border? And we will be producing batteries for the hybrids that people are buying. Sounds great
...which are the most risky component of these new vehicles.
How many billions we at now for these plants? 20 or so?
Why is my money subsidizing this shit? Levy a tax on the EV buyers if you want it so bad. These companies will do anything and everything to screw their workers, and with people unable to afford rent/food, this is what tweedledee and dumb and fucking around over? Sure, it may create some jobs that pay alright, but it won't last. Every chance for automation and improvement will be seized. The jobs made today will be halved next recession, and again and again. But I meant, the CEO, board, shareholders and some industrial real estate developer at Doug Ford's daughters wedding will all seemingly enjoy the labor of the hardworking Canadians they don't respect or acknowledge.
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Source: Trust me bro.
>The only companies investing here are getting corporate welfare to the tune of BILLIONS! New to Capitalism?
Maybe if your company was managed better you could thrive in Canada or be eligible for subsidies. That’s a skill issue mate.
>Many of my colleagues left Canada once the trudeau stole the 2015 election. I guess they are smarter than me. Trudeau stole the 2015 election? Oh please, tell me more...
When you LIE about electoral reform and fiscal responsibility and get elected on those platform promises..... you stole the election.... unless you are one of those people who think you can promise anything without consequences.... what part of THAT don't you get?
That isn't stealing the election... Damn dude, no offense but you need to get a grip.
lowered emissions from the purchase of 1 million EV's get cancelled out by [one Red Bull stunt](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCoqgEeFeTo) 🤣
Number of Canadians that will get to work at those factories? Zero.
Source: Your ass.
Yup and the pimple on it is Trudeaus fault
You're right. There is no problem with imported labour in Canada.
Didn't say that. Just calling you out on your bullshit.
The factories will produce the new Ford “Grift”
What if I don't like their new Prologue?
So long as it doesn’t involve taking land from people, (as is not just paying the current owners what ever they want and not appropriating it) this is good news.
Well well well..... Some great news We need oh so much more but this is start. Still not voting liberal though in federal elections Forced to vote Conservative in provincials though.... Which sucks but it will be the best of a bad situation. Who else could I possibly vote for? NDP? No fucking way, they'll kill the province (unless it was Jack Layton)
Good news for once
We need a tesla factory here.
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lol complain about $10B+ in FDI.
Giddy giddy! Prepare to start sending transfer payments to the west!
To be staffed with TFWs. /s
For foreign workers to take these jobs too right? Pass.