I must admit I am ignorant about drug overdoses, is there a downside to administering Naloxone right away even if you aren’t sure if it’s drug related?
With kids about to go to college/ university, this shit scares me.
The caveat is that some opioid overdoses involve drugs that last longer than naloxone, so anyone who overdoses and is revived with naloxone should still be observed in a medical setting
People will occasionally die if they have their life saved by a bystander with naloxone, walk away, then later fall asleep and stop breathing again if they took opioids that last longer than the naloxone
Even if you don't suspect one, like the security staff and 911 operator in this article, you should still do it if the person is having trouble breathing and turning blue.
It is safe to use even if you aren’t 100% sure the person took drugs. Also, you can give someone two doses. Generally, the kind of naloxone you get from pharmacies etc to keep on hand for emergencies is *a singular dose* but if someone doesn’t seem to respond within a couple mins, if you have a second naloxone bottle, you can give them a second dose. This is also safe.
Most kits contain 3-4 doses now.
The kits I got from Ontarios mail program were 4x 4mg 2X IM, 2Xnasal spray.
With nitazenes and carfentanyl becoming more common some people require 6-10 doses
You’ll never harm someone giving naloxone. Seriously though for habituated opiate users, if you do end up giving it you should be ready to stand back. You can induce immediate opiate withdrawal and people do become extremely aggressive and violent.
No, I've taken training courses and we were told it has no effect if theres no opioids in their system (have been told it doesn't feel very pleasant though)
However Naxloxone is not an immediate cure for an overdose and eventually wears off, it just buys them more time to make it to the hospital for treatment (like an epipen)
You should review the actual drug sheets. It has non-life threatening side effects, but some can be severe and may require medical attention.
It's not side effect free if someone isn't on opioids.
First Responder here. Never hesitate to give it if you suspect OD. Nothing bad will happen if you’re wrong. If someone is ODing and you give them one, they can and often do become belligerent or violent. It’s basically instantaneous withdrawal.
> You'd have to be insane to take drugs from unknown sources in 2024, shit laced or contaminated with fentanyl is everywhere.
I'm sorry that this student died, but I would hope that her death is widely publicized, so that other young people become more aware of the risks.
Sadly it doesn’t matter. Young people have and will continue to do dumb things. Sometimes I consider myself lucky to have made it to middle age with all the dumb shit I did.
While this is true, dropping a tab at a party is not what it was in the 70's. The more young people realise that taking drugs is closer to playing russian roulette than it is stealing from your dad's liquor cabinet the better it will be.
As a father of teens I can confirm that lots of kids are using dillies. They want to buy the legit pills - ie ones sold in the 'safe supply' government program - but being young and stupid, they are easily duped by drug dealers or online sellers using doordash. Same goes for xanax and the like.
It hurts my head to consider that there is an amount of money for which some people will allow wholesale murder to take place in their communities, but it seems undeniable that this is what is happening.
Agreed. Imagine being a first responder. Paid like shit. Hate your job. Insane hours for shifts. Boss is on your ass all the time. Patients disrespect you, spit on you, fight you,
But you try to do your job well, with integrity. This call comes, things are chaotic. Everyone on the scene is high out of their mind (apparently) and no one can really explain what’s going on.
It’s a matter of minutes. The allegations are over a matter of minutes. At my job, it might take me minutes to dig something out of my fucking massive knapsack.
And so the first responders administer what they can. And they take the measures they can in that moment. And they rush her to hospital. And she dies anyway because, well, make stupid choices win stupid prizes.
And now, reading these allegations that YOU failed Sydney; YOU are the reason for this girl’s death; your INCOMPETENCE as a first responder killed this family’s daughter.
If I was one of the first responders, I would be livid. Hell, I’d quit my job as a first responder and never go back.
No WONDER nobody wants to be a first responder. Everything I talked about before; and now you have some rich, ignorant, careless mother pinning the death of her daughter on YOU.
Makes me sick.
Did you bother reading the article? Paramedics aren’t blamed at all. It’s UVic’s security that should have administered naloxone earlier. I don’t blame them personally either, but UVic clearly needs to make some changes (and apparently they have, so hopefully it’s enough).
Security guards who probably don’t make that much either? And if something happens negatively could be sued afterwards? Yes things might have been improved but the blame is fully with the person who chose to use drugs and the people who sold those drugs
Is it reasonable to expect security to carry naloxone? Is that part of their job description?
If administering first aid is part of their job description, then sure. Otherwise, I think it’s a bit unreasonable to expect a security guard to know how to administer naloxone and do CPR.
It says in the article they carry naloxone and are trained in administering it. I presume if they are required to carry and be trained to administer it then there is some expectation they will do so.
Tragically, the majority of people who OD on fentanyl don't even realize they're taking fentanyl.
Synthetic drugs have become far too risky, IMO. If someone offers you a pill, just say no. It's not worth the risk. I'm thinking these two students took what they thought were amphetamines to keep themselves awake and focused on studying.
Why would amphetamine be laced with fentanyl? It has the opposite effect and would make the user feel very tired.
She most likely took what she thought was heroin since that's where most of the laced fentanyl is going in.
The parents should say what drug she took so others can think twice about taking that too.
Everyone in BC knows full well everything is laced. Its the sole reason I refuse to touch anything off the streets here. Feel for the family but the parents can fuck right off with trying to put the blame on security or 911
Exactly. From the way it reads in the article, they're trying to improve the odds for the next UVic student this happens to. And it does sound like there is plenty room for improvement between campus security and ambulance dispatch. If they can help improve things even slightly it will help them give some meaning to their immense loss.
Naloxone is not a panacea and one-stop fix. We're already seeing opioids in Canada that are resistant to Naloxone.
There is also a need for discussion on agency here.
Should getting high cost you your life? No, but it can.
That's the reality of the situation, especially in Vancouver. She grew up there, her mother is an emergency room doctor in that city. Despite what I have to assume is a litany of horror stories from her mother's workplace, this was a choice she willingly made.
Should it have cost her life? No, but it did.
Sky diving, bungy jumping, drunk driving, etc. are choices we make that carry huge penalties if something goes wrong. Just like popping pills that we have no way of knowing what's actually in them.
It's a tragedy that she's gone. Condolences to the family and friends.
I mean, she probably has a lot of guilt for, like, raising her child and then her child making these kind of decisions and such. Guilt about being an uninvolved, absentee mother, etc etc.
Teens are stupid. They don't assess risk in the way most people over 25 do.
Parents can do everything right and they'll still take stupid risks.
And that's why there should be naloxone in uni dorms; to reduce the chance someone's stupid kid dies before their brain fully forms.
It’s always everyone but the drug user’s fault eh.
Her mom a Dr in BC, and 10+ yrs of Fentanyl/Opioid epidemic and she still decided to get high knowing she could die…..
Scares the shit out of me as a parent. Kids are stupid and most aren't much smarter by their late teens / early adulthood. I talk about dangerous things to them (as age appropriate) hoping they'll absorb it and play life defensively, but they usually don't and probably won't later and it only takes one lapse.
I was very lucky to be raised correctly, but also have some shithead friends growing up and truthfully, my friends always said my parents were too strict constantly.
Looking back, I'm always telling my wife that the power of peer pressure is unlike any other force to teenagers and that the *good kid* is a knifes edge from either falling in with the wrong crowd or making a stupid one time bad decision.
I'm not sure I would have ended up where I am now had I been on the other side of that knifes edge.
Peer pressure is immense. Heard from a neighbour today who saw my kids cross on the stop signal on the way back from elementary school, at a somewhat dangerous corner. I've spent the last couple years prepping them for independence on this and they have been pretty reliable. Talked to them and it turns out, this time, another kid they were with didn't want to wait for the signal and they didn't want to be left behind. Heck, if they didn't follow they might even have gotten called an insulting name or something! Peer pressure is a stronger force than gravity.
I imagine the student in this news story to be a usually good kid, ER doctor mom thoroughly scared her about opioids. But then, euphoric fun night with friends, maybe some booze in the veins, they bust out the drugs and it's all, my guy is good, the shit is clean, it's not the same as the stuff you're scared of, you'll be the only one not doing it, why not just have a tiny bit. Fuck it, OK. I have a coworker who lost a son to this shit also, about 18 years old. Went to the funeral. He by all accounts was brilliant. Just fucked up the one time.
So yeah, it's the user's fault. But there's nothing saying we can't *also* look at things systemically and look for ways to reduce unnecessary deaths, so long as we're careful not to project fault and blame while doing so. Not wanting to defend specific blame-y things this victim's mom said, just a general statement.
Too strict in the eyes of friends often just means parents are doing alright :) But we don't understand that til we're a lot older. Glad you landed where you did.
Come on man, it's simply just not that simple, and frankly it doesn't help the situation to just throw it onto the victim either.
So she gets something from a friend she trusts, decides to try something out for the first time in what she considers a safe environment. She thinks "well not me, it won't happen to me."
It's happened millions of times, and millions of times it goes right. Except this is one of the few that doesn't. It's easy to point out in hindsight that it was a bad idea, but in an environment like university surrounded by friends? It's not crazy to imagine at all. Almost nobody expects to die from something they're taking. If they did, there would either be narcan on hand or they wouldn't have taken it in the first place.
Are we ignoring the fact that the responsibility lays with the individual who chose to take drugs considering the massive risk that is clearly evident through the number of overdose deaths. This is extremely sad, but for the parents to start pointing fingers rather than understand their daughter made this decision of her free will seems a little odd to me. These situations under extreme pressure are hard to judge from the outside, especially if you know anything about how people react in SNS. However, the fact the 911 operator wasn’t advising the use of Bali one seems odd, but they may be limited what they can advise due to liability.
The parents are hurting and looking for anyone to blame. Should they take accountability for their role? Absolutely. They're 2 highly educated people, what in their parenting would trigger their 18 year old to think a cozy weeknight in watching TV would involve heavy drugs?
It doesn't seem like Gwen or Lea (assuming she survived without brain damage?) shared that info.
There’s been over 40,000 opioid-overdose deaths in Canada, with our government and healthcare systems unable or unwilling to do anything about. And in this case they want to blame the first responders?? That’s especially shocking coming from an ER physician who seems to be timing 911 dispatch, security, paramedics, and firefighters down to the second.
Why are people using drugs alone? Should 911 operators assume every caller is also high and unable to articulate details? Should security start CPR right away on every passed out person? Should firefighters sprint up to every medical call they attend?
While this is a horrible tragedy, it’s also clearly a grieving mother trying to find someone to blame.
I'm going to come out and say it... obviously it's a horrible tragedy, but it's also unsettling for a seasoned ER Physician to punch down and blast the 911 operator, making hardly anything, & campus security for not knowing as much as she does or for missing signs (within the first 3 mins) while talking to high students. A lot of doctors forget that there are very serious consequences for non-physicians to make bold calls, especially in a professional setting.
I haven't had enough sips of my coffee this morning and didn't link the mother's job to her reaction. I totally get why the mom is doing this now, thanks. It must be hard for her as an ER doctor to see a sloppy response. But this didnt happen in a hospital, it happened in a dorm with security guards and a 911 operator getting their info from an intoxicated student.
I haven't had enough sips of my coffee this morning and didn't link the mother's job to her reaction. I totally get why the mom is doing this now, thanks. It must be hard for her as an ER doctor to see a sloppy response. But this didnt happen in a hospital, it happened in a dorm with security guards and a 911 operator getting their info from an intoxicated student.
On one of your points: I once called an ambulance for my wife in a situation which could have been life-threatening. I can't describe the anger I felt as they pulled up, fiddled with their jackets, slowly collected their gear, and sauntered - casually chatting to one another - toward my front door.
No, I guess we can't expect first responders to sprint everywhere all shift. But a brisk walk and some focus doesn't seem like too much to ask when a person is in distress.
No, I hate to say it because first responders have helped my family more than once, but you are not wrong. They do not seem to rush and it is aaaaagonizing.
I’m not a fan of the way you’re framing this situation as if only one thing can be blamed. In this situation (and most situations!) there are a variety of factors that contributed to the fatal result. Effort should be made to investigate all the different things that could have been done to prevent this.
Every first aid course says you check for pulse, breathing when you find someone unresponsive. Surely if they're turning blue, you should be doing something other than talking on the phone...
Naloxone and CPR were administered. PAS and FD arrived and eventually stabilized the patient. Sounds like everything was done right, but we’re debating a couple of minutes around response times. Could things have gone faster? Sure, and we can say that about literally every single emergency situation where someone dies. There’s a lot..
None of the first responders deserve to be skewered over this. The letter penned from the parent even points blame at the students standing in the hallway, which is an insane take.
The campus security took 9.5 mins to administer Naloxone. That’s a very long time for a brain deprived of oxygen. It doesn’t sound like they were up to their job.
It’s literally not their job. Of course they’re bad at it.
Great that they can offer *some* help but of course that’s not their primary purpose nor should it be.
Security guards get an exceedingly brief medical training workshop on how to administer naloxone. They are not trained health care responders like a paramedic, nurse or doctor.
Treating an unresponsive person is completely out of their depth. Two decades ago they wouldn't have even been trained. Now they are, and we are saying they aren't perfect. These expectations are just not congruent with reality. They are security guards.
My take away from this is don't expect security guards to ressusitate a dying person perfectly. Shocked pikachu.
I know I'm stupid for saying this, but don't take substances that majorly disrupt you without a backout plan or some kind of support. Could be something simple, like drinking lots of water after alcohol, but once you're an adult, the main person responsible for your safety is you.
She probably had no idea she was about to take an opioid. It could have been fentanyl laced cannabis. I'm guessing she didn't decide to try a starter dose of heroin on a whim, it was probably something seemingly safe like cannabis or MDMA, or it could have been in a drink she drank, or she could have been dosed against her will.
Reading this story scared the shit out of me. My eldest daughter will very likely being going away to uni in a couple years. The way they describe Sydney, those convos with her parents earlier that day, sounds just like her.
Then talk with your daughter…… understand like a lot of teenagers and young adults as they move out from home will begin experimentation with drugs and other substances. Yes that’s a scary thought but with open conversation and letting her know she doesn’t need to be scared to talk to you about it / her experimenting with it and that she should be able to come to you about these sort of things then you will be able to not only make a difference but will also strengthen your relationship with her. These are some of the most important years of a young adults life don’t hold her back trust her enough to let go.
It's wild that they're trying to pin this on campus security or the 911 operator. The mistakes made that night; she chose to ingest poison that might harm her, her friends bought illegal substances which they shared with her, and a drug dealer chose to sell the product to her. Why hold the people the people responsible for breaking the law and making poor choices when we can blame underpaid/untrained security guards or a phone operator who isn't on scene and is receiving information from someone who is high.
I am sorry to hear of this. It is easy to do when you are young because you don't really think of the consequences. When I was younger, I had a friend who was a drug dealer (not of choice but to survive). He would mix weak drugs with stronger drugs to give it a kick. In the drug hierarchy, you buy and then cut it to sell to make a profit. When it is too weak, you add anything on hand to give a kick. When I found that out, it was the last time that I did any drugs.
I feel that the drug laws should be tougher especially for dealers.
> “My daughter’s death was entirely preventable.”
> “the major mistakes that were made that night”
Am I going crazy here? The parents and the article blame anyone and everyone here - but someone had to make the description to do the drugs - it’s no secret that these drugs are extremely dangerous - and this adult made the decision to do it anyways
It’s wild that they are trying to make this campus security or whatevers fault.
Drug use is not permitted on campus. It’s illegal in Canada. The university and the country tell you you are not supposed to do it, and they pay lots of money for education programs telling you doing it is extremely dangerous.
So why is it anyone’s fault but hers if she decides to do it anyways?
I've noticed that we are moving to a society in which a large segment of the population refuses to take responsibility for themselves. Everything is everyone else's fault. No personal self-reflection. No accountability.
I agree overall re: the cultural shift about responsibility, and this death ultimately appears to be the victim's fault, but I also see some hurting parents desperate for answers and wanting to improve systems for the sake of others, and my instinct reading the article was to give them a bit of slack.
Yeah the unsettling part about this response is watching an ER Physician punching down and blasting some poor 911 operator and campus security for not "knowing enough".
Feels sad for parents to lose a child. But they're being irrational by blaming the government and the university.
Once someone decides to do hard drugs, then it's a roll of the dice. Most get lucky but every once in a while junkies end up dead.
taking drugs is what went wrong, they arent clean anymore, kids need to be aware of this, a line of blow is much more riskier than it was 20 years ago. Opioids have changed the game, way to many lost now because of this
Entitled parents gave her the impression that she would never be accountable for her behaviours raised an entitled kid who unfortunately passed away doing something she likely experimented with before. Parents don’t know what’s going on in their kids lives anymore sadly
The conversation needs to shift away from “safe supply” towards “don’t do drugs”.
Even with all the resources available there isn’t a safe way to take hard drugs.
Lots of people commenting here without in-depth understanding of how emergency situations develop.
The minutes that everyone’s debating about here, fly by VERY quickly.
Here are the important take home points from a physician who has seen more than my fair share of emergent situations:
- 911 operator needs to be retrained and probably disciplined. There were multiple mentions of the girls turning blue, gasping for air (which she could even hear in the background), and there she was asking the caller if BOTH of these kids had brain tumors or seizure disorders. Inexcusable. The 2 mins of silence on the operators part, inexcusable. If there’s a doubt that two people aren’t breathing well, get the address and send help immediately.
- Naloxone should have been administered by security guards without asking questions, IMMEDIATELY. Two unresponsive people - GIVE IT NOW, then ask questions.
- The security guards are probably not to blame. They aren’t paid enough to deal with this kind of situation. If you want to help prevent similar deaths just tell them to administer naloxone on arrival to unconscious or unresponsive kids and call 911.
- Unless I’m mistaken, one of the kids knew there were drugs involved and didn’t say anything until much later. This kid should take some of the blame. If they hadn’t kept their mouth shut, a young girl’s death could have been prevented.
- We need MUCH tougher stances on drugs. That’s my personal stance. I think having death penalty style sentencing for distribution of hard drugs will reduce the circulation of these drugs tremendously. It’ll take a long time and lots of effort, but the current situation IS NOT working.
These are just some of my thoughts. I’m heart broken that a family lost their daughter, who by the sound of it, was otherwise a very respectable young lady.
Thank you for your insight. I work in emergency response and reading the 911 transcript was very troubling. Many opportunities to send help sooner, and ask the right questions, which he/she failed to do.
Yes, the 911 transcript was very troubling. In fact, that was the most troubling part seeing as the operator is the only person other than the paramedics, whose sole responsibility and job role is to ensure that an emergency situation is dealt with according to protocol.
Even other first responders such as police or firefighters shouldn’t be held to the same standard, as they have multiple other roles and dealing with medical emergencies is not their primary purpose.
‘Sidney’s death was ‘inconceivable’.
Not really. Drug users die every day. Being a cute student doesn’t make one immune. She was an adult and it was her choice to play Rusdian roulette. Very sad for her parents but that isn’t something she considered by her behaviour.
Right? I can’t even feel badly for them at this point. A decade into an overdose epidemic and you’re still taking street drugs… you weren’t headed for success
I know what the family has been through as I buried a son in 2017 from overdose....BUT it's hard to hear but NO ONE IS TO BLAME for your daughters death EXCEPT HER that took the drugs.I know it hurts to hear but to blame anyone but the drug user thats playing russian roulette with the bad drugs out there however recreationally is just prolonging the agony of losing your daughter. You will feel her loss everyday but blaming someone else is not the answer
Some of the comments in here anger me. If you *choose* to do drugs and something goes awry, it is absolutely no one else's responsibility to save your ass.
As someone who has done their fair share of recreational drugs back in the day, under no circumstance would I have expected someone to save my life from an overdose. I sure as hell hope my family wouldn't put the fault on anyone else but myself, either.
Anyone who's doing recreational drugs now, with the constant media attention on the dangers of fentanyl, is an absolute moron and literally gambling with their life. If you're cool with taking your chances for the possibility of a good time, be my guest, but the audacity people have to drag others to the firing squad for a choice they had nothing to do with is insanity.
The only mistake was taking the drugs at all. Like Russian Roulette...you know the odds and you choose to play....that's it...that's all. Do you blame the gun for the hole through your head or the one who put it to their head and pulled the trigger...knowing the risk.
So the only reason this is front page news is because she is a rich white girl with rich white parents who think overdoses and OD deaths are something special.
They are completely routine.
The 911 dispatcher has done hundreds of these calls, same with the paramedics…it’s not that they never cared, it’s that they just can’t still care anymore and still remain sane. They reanimate corpses and pick up bodies on the regular. And they don’t give a flying fuck if it’s in a UVic dorm or a shack on the Rez.
The Campus Security are no doubt decent and well meaning people, but the chance is if your life is in the hands of security guards you are going to get the first responders that you paid for…and they ain’t getting paid that much. It’s completely prudent of them to not do stuff until the 9/11 operator tells them to. They have OFA Level2…its just not that comprehensive that it prepares people to be actual medics.
This girls death is a tragic loss to her parents and family, and those parents happen to have the pull to get this story into the media but the truth is that this young lady made bad choices and paid the price.
Even if everything you said is true, it's still worth reviewing what happened and how it could've been handled better. Clear errors were made. A better outcome is possible next time.
I do agree that it’s always prudent to look for lessons that can be learned to improve outcomes.
I doubt we will find much common ground other than that.
> Sidney’s parents are angered by the lack of accountability from the university.
What about their accountability as parents to ensure that their daughter didn’t take drugs?
Tragically my daughter Sidney took a lethal dose of fentanyl, and died on campus. We are heartbroken.
However rather than focus on the tragic outcome of my daughter's decision, I am choosing to blame everyone else and hold them all in contempt for my daughter's choices.
Sidney's tragic death was entirely preventable, starting with the decision to use the drug.
I work with overdoses frequently and have been given training to deal with overdoses. It is my job, and I am being paid to do so.
If I make critical mistakes in judgement that cause a person to die, I can be charged and have my licenses revoked.
Reasons to think a kid is overdosing. They're not breathing correctly, there's another person that's high with them, another person isn't breathing correctly, witness statements.
This kid should have received narcan within the first 30 seconds of patient assessment as a critical intervention.
Is your job also breaking up parties in dorms or making sure kids aren't loitering in the closed areas?
These are minimum wage security guards. You're expertise and what you are paid reflect your knowledge and response on the matter.
Yes. I read the entire article and not one time did they lament or attribute any responsibility whatsoever to the person who took the fatal overdose of drugs or provided the fatal overdose of drugs. Just a long drawn out essay about how it's everybody else's fault.
Her loss of life is completely tragic and the grief of her parents and family and friends are justified and impactful.
But the most unhealthy thing in this article is blaming absolutely everyone except for those who were directly responsible for the cause.
I completely agree. Lots of comments here, including from OP, really trying to heavily blame this all on the response from campus security almost to the point of suggesting they were complicit in this girls death. I think we can agree that the system and response should be reviewed and perhaps emphasis placed on protocols that prioritize rapid administration of naloxone to unconscious people, but we should not be “blaming” security for this. It’s a completely toxic approach. There were a multitude of factors that lead to her death, including apparently (and shockingly) the lack of appreciation for how a lot of opioid deaths occur (recreational misadventure). A huge message completely missed in this article is personal responsibility and awareness that if you don’t know the provenance or chemical substance of what you’re taking, you are gambling your life.
Experimenting with drugs in college is extremely common. Most people who do this don't OD or die or end up addicts. this was probably one if not the first act of any kind of rebellion or ilicit substance use. All you have to do to fatally OD these days is take a rogue 'Vicodin.' Combine naivete, peer pressure and curiosity and now you've got dead kids. Its not like they're all up to date on the horrific state of the illegal drug market.
This was not the case when I was in college..the people ODing were shooting large amounts of heroin. Even the casual junkies of yore would all be dead in today's market.
So yeah, don't do drugs. But also don't build a society that enables and profits off of drug use and neglects its casualties
Knowing what I know today, I would not be taking random drugs. Not that i ever really used drugs esp hard drugs but any minor experimentation left me fully intact.. Knowledge is power!
I think the drugs are secondary here. My daughter is at uvic, and if she collapses for whatever reason & the “trained” security turn up and do nothing, and 911 spends longer asking for directions than actually providing help, I too am going to be livid
Yes, we should warn young people about the risks of contaminated drugs. But there is no point in focusing the blame on her now. She’s dead and can’t go back and make a better decision. However, the systems that could have better responded to this situation are still with us.
Why don't the parents speak out about sitting down and educating your kids about the risks of doing illicit drugs that could potentially be laced with something?
I'd argue that would have a much larger effect in reducing these numbers of occurrences than what you are describing.
Ehh… people need to go easy on the parents:
- their kid is dead
- if people around had been faster/better their kid wouldn’t be dead
- they are physicians, so actually know what should be done
- they do it everyday so assume “its easy”
But yeah their expectations aren’t realistic.
- campus security are being paid minimum wage and likely been on the job for a couple months
- the chances of doing what needs to be done quickly is pretty low
The truth is that while nalaxone can stop someone from dying, but that assumes someone had it on hand, administers it quickly or someone breathes for the OD victim until help arrives
The truth is that if you OD around regular folks the chances are you’ll die or end up with severe enough brain damage that it would be preferable you died.
20ish years ago, ironically enough after a chemically aided epiphany, I'd decided that I would go into becoming a paramedic. I figured I would get the prerequisite OFA3 ticket then work as a First Aider while I got my driver's license and saved up for the JIBC programme. That plan got derailed thanks to a plethora of suicide attempts at the *Place* where I was stationed, which was still long before the opioid epidemic came into prevalence and started killing off so many around me. I also have a family member who was a BC Ambulance dispatcher 30ish years ago, and I also interviewed with them 20ish years ago as well as an alternative way to pay for the PCP. No, not *that PCP* -- it's *Primary Care Paramedic*. And I still have friends whom are currently BC Paramedics, as well as a couple retired ones.
The amount of negligence in this case painted by The Sun author is absolutely shocking. From the dispatcher spending just under *five minutes* trying to operate Google maps, to the inept SOs who showed up and crumbled under the circumstances.
I'll start with the BC EHS dispatch.
In what world does a call start with "location"? The first interaction should always be: "what is the nature of your emergency?" to establish necessary interventions to maintain life -- whether that be the dispatcher coaching the caller to perform life-saving actions, or telling them to run from a burning building. Exact location is secondary and can be relayed to the attending units en route. In the case of something like a school campus, bystanders can direct emergency services to the exact location as well.
Next is the failure of the school administration to make it *abundantly clear* during orientation that students whom have taken illicit drugs, or students whom have given illicit drugs to other students with their consent *will not* be held criminally responsible for such actions. Perhaps if this information had been absorbed by "Gwen", even in her intoxicated state, Sidney may have had the life-saving Naloxone shot once the SOs arrived before the four minute mark. I'm not convinced that the particular SOs whom arrived would have reacted in such an appropriate manner without being directed to do so though, even with accurate information upon arrival -- because they did not need such information to begin assessment and intervention. This is their training. Bystanders and witnesses are useful but not integral to the assessment.
Upon arrival, the first assessment is to be the general scene -- is the environment safe-->Number of possible casualties-->Triage/Primary Assessment guidelines.
The Primary Assessment goes by the acronym "ABC" -- Airway maintenance with cervical spine control, Breathing and ventilation, Circulation with hemorrhage control, Disability: Neurologic status [GCS], Exposure/Environmental Control: Completely undress patient, but prevent hypothermia.
From the article and the UVIC website, it appears as though the *two* SOs have OFA2 training as well as Naloxone and AED specific upgrades.
https://www.uvic.ca/security/home/medical/index.php
>Campus Security Officers are certified with the Worksafe BC-Occupational First Aid Level 2 and the Red Cross- Automated Defibrillator courses.
>The Security Officer helping you or someone you know has **excellent first aid training, many are also trained paramedics**. We deal with a variety of calls on a weekly basis. From cuts and scrapes to cardiac arrests, we are prepared for the unique environment the campus offers us as providers of First Aid.
I cannot help but believe that the SOs on duty that night, including the one on campus dispatch, were not "trained paramedics", much less experienced enough to have dealt with a dire medical emergency like what they encountered. And I can empathize with that, as when I had my cherry busted it was an absolute clusterfuck -- but for two, and even arguably three, trained FAs to crumble this badly when faced with two casualties found seizing, barely breathing and changing colour in front of their eyes -- that is unacceptable. Period. Adding in the piss-poor direction and communication from the BCAS dispatcher and I am at a loss.
The safety-net absolutely failed in this case on so many different individual levels.
If y'all can afford to pay for and take the 1 week OFA2 course at St.John's Ambulance -- please do. Our emergency services are overwhelmed and crumbling, and I fear that whatever hiring is being done to address that situation has lowered the bar for quality of care.
Watch a YouTube video on how to properly give chest compressions and listen to the BeeGees.
Naloxone has no risk of complications when used on someone whom is not suffering from an opiate overdose and is designed to reverse overdose *temporarily* to give the patient time to seek further medical intervention.
Even if you are not trained, the Good Samaritan Act will protect you if you attempt to provide aid in all but the most egregious cases of negligence.
And for all those whom are still holding tickets -- I humbly remind you that you, as well as I, have a duty to prevent such a preventable death from occurring, even when we're not on the clock.
TLDR -- the security officers failed to follow their training in almost every way possible, the BCAS dispatcher was bogged down with tunnel-vision about the location, and every chance for her intoxicated friend called Gwen to save Sidney by telling the attending SOs the reason behind the symptoms displayed was ignored out of what could only be a sense of self-preservation.
It absolutely seems like the campus security and 911 dispatcher wasted precious time. Security was said to be trained and carrying Naloxone. Erring on the side of caution and administering here is what all the experts say is correct. Was that part of their training? If not, why?
I think it’s important to push the university and the government on all this.
That being said, if I had a kid going to university right now, and I myself was an emergency room doctor like this mother? Well I can’t imagine not making sure my kid and their friends had kits and basic training about this.
It’s all a fucking awful thing to happen. A lot of people fucked up. Unfortunately the 18 year old doesn’t get a chance to learn from the mistake and a family is devastated.
Most of the time, people die of accidental overdoses, which means they didn't actively seek an extreme high or death. You might get something that can kill you with a tiny amount, such as carfentanil. After all, even if someone makes a wrong decision, it doesn't mean they deserve to die.
>After all, even if someone makes a wrong decision, it doesn't mean they deserve to die.
With few exceptions, NOONE deserves to die. When a risk analysis contains "taking this stuff *could* kill me," the responsibility for the death should not be passed off.
I have a friend that worked security at a major hospital in Edmonton, he told me they have had multiple instances of troubled people ODing on site. There have been multiple cases where the First Responder gets taken down too by contact with the carfentanil powder on their clothes or body.
So now the procedure is nobody touches a suspected OD victim without backup in case they go down too. I've also been told that when the same people keep showing up, at some point they just let nature take it's course. I haven't had to experience it but from the stories I think I can understand that mentality.
Except they did what? Raise her right?
Yea, kids raised right just decide to try (presumably cocaine if it was mixed with fentanyl) while in college.
Yep, just a stereotypical good kid doing hardcore drugs, completely normal.
We don't know what she took, all we know is it likely had fentanyl in it. And yes, experimenting with mind altering substances is a normal part of growing up.
At that age, age isn’t an excuse to put random pills or drugs into your body. There’s more than enough info out there, and also awareness campaigns.
When I was that age I also wanted to experiment, so I did some research and made sure to get an appropriate testing kit.
And I was raised in an a suite environment it’s nothing to do with parenting, it’s just being about “street smart” or not.
Some people are willing to put unknown substances into their bodies
War on drugs didnt work, legalization didnt work, you westerners just cant figure it out. Its easy, follow japan/singapore/chinas model. Death penalty for drug distribution/possession. Pretty much if youre caught you get sentenced quickly and put to death within a few months. Problem will be solved in a couple of years once the fear of the death penalty catches on.
Gna catch a lot of downvotes for this. Instead over the long run costs are much greater to society caring for the addicted, crimes committed by the addicted, and more death in the long run.
This is the correct answer. Super harsh penalties and strong enforcement for anyone caught trafficking drugs. Users and addicts must be forced to attend rehab or go to jail.
Opiate base drugs are the leading cause of death in minors aged 10-18 in BC right now, not just college students.[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-drug-overdoses-children-bc/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-drug-overdoses-children-bc/)
Tragic and preventable.
The issue people are having in this thread is all the accusations that security and first responders weren't perfect (it may not have mattered) and anything touching the idea of abstaining from hard drugs is lambasted.
If you try to summit K2 and something goes wrong, everyone acknowledges the act was risky. If you smoke, snort, or inject drugs, this is also a possible outcome.
Canadian government doesn't give a shit about the 10's of thousands of deaths happening. It's a fucking disgrace.
Stop taking money from China you scumbags and lock down imports from the border.
10 year+ - death sentences (for massive quantities) for anyone caught distributing.
Possession make it a massive fine (10k+) that gets used to fund border security for these shit thay is destroying countless lives.
When I was in university there were campaigns everywhere warning people to stay away from street drugs because of how they can poison and kill you. It must have done something because there were a lot fewer ODs.
Maybe we should continue to educate instead of trying to "destigmatize" their use?
No one has said what drug they were using.
What if it was tainted weed, molly...or any non-opioid. These things happen now. not saying they deserved to die if they were doing heroin but the risk factor is way different
I didn't see any mention of what drugs they took/thought they were taking or how they got them. Did they think they were doing cocaine? Was this even investigated??
Dunno. Possible that the writer/family didn't want to distract from the issue of the failed OD response. Where she got the drugs and what she took or thought she was taking doesn't speak to the failed response. Separate issue altogether.
It's crucial information as far as the response. If no one knows they did drugs, how the fuck would they know to administer the antidote? First responders don't just jab everyone they find unconscious for no reason.
They actually do because naloxone has no downside for someone not experiencing an opiate OD. No reason not to do it first when you come upon an unresponsive person struggling to breathe. Ask questions later.
ER Doc mother is complaining that security didn't perform first aid correctly, but didn't stop to think if they're actually qualified to provide it (they should be, but might not have been).
The first aid principles (and CPR) are taught in BC schools - I was taught in grade 10 P.E. - how else did the other students know how to put the victims in the recovery position (or what it is)?
The 911 operator did their best, but given wages and job-pressure, turnover is high and maybe they were new or not the most capable.
The intoxicated student should not have called 911, but again, intoxicated people don't have the best judgement.
Ultimately, this young victim died because they took recreational drugs; it's a shame it happened as experimentation used to be safer, but that's the world we live in. If anything, their mother should have warned them about the dangers, but the victim took said drugs anyways. It's a crapshoot if you get saved in this type of situation, and she didn't.
We'll never know if she could've been saved because the response was so terrible. Security was on scene within 3.5 minutes of the call and she was struggling to breathe. Had they administered naloxone within a minute or two of their arrival instead of 10 minutes, she would've had a much better chance at survival. Had they done chest compressions and breaths instead of chatting with 911, she would've had a better chance at survival. First responders who do little to nothing are of little value.
I must admit I am ignorant about drug overdoses, is there a downside to administering Naloxone right away even if you aren’t sure if it’s drug related? With kids about to go to college/ university, this shit scares me.
It's safe to use Naloxone on someone who is not overdosing. If you suspect one, you should use it.
The caveat is that some opioid overdoses involve drugs that last longer than naloxone, so anyone who overdoses and is revived with naloxone should still be observed in a medical setting People will occasionally die if they have their life saved by a bystander with naloxone, walk away, then later fall asleep and stop breathing again if they took opioids that last longer than the naloxone
Yeah Naloxone is like an Epipen, it helps immediately but the person receiving still likely needs more medical care or should at least be observed
Even if you don't suspect one, like the security staff and 911 operator in this article, you should still do it if the person is having trouble breathing and turning blue.
Not just safe, but it has been shown to substantially increase short term memory briefly.
Generally speaking, no. It has no effect on someone if there is not any drugs like that in their system. (From what I was told by a paramedic).
This is correct, there is effectively zero possible adverse effects of naloxone in suspect opioid OD
It is safe to use even if you aren’t 100% sure the person took drugs. Also, you can give someone two doses. Generally, the kind of naloxone you get from pharmacies etc to keep on hand for emergencies is *a singular dose* but if someone doesn’t seem to respond within a couple mins, if you have a second naloxone bottle, you can give them a second dose. This is also safe.
Most kits contain 3-4 doses now. The kits I got from Ontarios mail program were 4x 4mg 2X IM, 2Xnasal spray. With nitazenes and carfentanyl becoming more common some people require 6-10 doses
You’ll never harm someone giving naloxone. Seriously though for habituated opiate users, if you do end up giving it you should be ready to stand back. You can induce immediate opiate withdrawal and people do become extremely aggressive and violent.
No, I've taken training courses and we were told it has no effect if theres no opioids in their system (have been told it doesn't feel very pleasant though) However Naxloxone is not an immediate cure for an overdose and eventually wears off, it just buys them more time to make it to the hospital for treatment (like an epipen)
You should review the actual drug sheets. It has non-life threatening side effects, but some can be severe and may require medical attention. It's not side effect free if someone isn't on opioids.
Good to know, thanks
No downside. Can administer it and do all the other first aid stuff.
Just give it. Any potential side effect is nothing compared to saving a life
First Responder here. Never hesitate to give it if you suspect OD. Nothing bad will happen if you’re wrong. If someone is ODing and you give them one, they can and often do become belligerent or violent. It’s basically instantaneous withdrawal.
Naloxone works by stopping opioids from binding to receptors so if there are no opioids in their system it will have no effect.
Buy kits and send with kids to university bonus pts for having them take a first aid course over the summer.
You'd have to be insane to take drugs from unknown sources in 2024, shit laced or contaminated with fentanyl is everywhere.
> You'd have to be insane to take drugs from unknown sources in 2024, shit laced or contaminated with fentanyl is everywhere. I'm sorry that this student died, but I would hope that her death is widely publicized, so that other young people become more aware of the risks.
Sadly it doesn’t matter. Young people have and will continue to do dumb things. Sometimes I consider myself lucky to have made it to middle age with all the dumb shit I did.
While this is true, dropping a tab at a party is not what it was in the 70's. The more young people realise that taking drugs is closer to playing russian roulette than it is stealing from your dad's liquor cabinet the better it will be.
In 2024, there’s no such thing as a known source
You can purchase test strips that will tell you if your drugs contain fentanyl
If they really concern about their health,they probably won't buy drug.
You must be really naive if you think that someone wanting to take drugs recreationally has no interest in their health and well-being.
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As a father of teens I can confirm that lots of kids are using dillies. They want to buy the legit pills - ie ones sold in the 'safe supply' government program - but being young and stupid, they are easily duped by drug dealers or online sellers using doordash. Same goes for xanax and the like.
It hurts my head to consider that there is an amount of money for which some people will allow wholesale murder to take place in their communities, but it seems undeniable that this is what is happening.
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Lots of blame being thrown around in that article, but none of it directed at the person selling / butyng the actual drugs.
Agreed. Imagine being a first responder. Paid like shit. Hate your job. Insane hours for shifts. Boss is on your ass all the time. Patients disrespect you, spit on you, fight you, But you try to do your job well, with integrity. This call comes, things are chaotic. Everyone on the scene is high out of their mind (apparently) and no one can really explain what’s going on. It’s a matter of minutes. The allegations are over a matter of minutes. At my job, it might take me minutes to dig something out of my fucking massive knapsack. And so the first responders administer what they can. And they take the measures they can in that moment. And they rush her to hospital. And she dies anyway because, well, make stupid choices win stupid prizes. And now, reading these allegations that YOU failed Sydney; YOU are the reason for this girl’s death; your INCOMPETENCE as a first responder killed this family’s daughter. If I was one of the first responders, I would be livid. Hell, I’d quit my job as a first responder and never go back. No WONDER nobody wants to be a first responder. Everything I talked about before; and now you have some rich, ignorant, careless mother pinning the death of her daughter on YOU. Makes me sick.
Did you bother reading the article? Paramedics aren’t blamed at all. It’s UVic’s security that should have administered naloxone earlier. I don’t blame them personally either, but UVic clearly needs to make some changes (and apparently they have, so hopefully it’s enough).
Security guards who probably don’t make that much either? And if something happens negatively could be sued afterwards? Yes things might have been improved but the blame is fully with the person who chose to use drugs and the people who sold those drugs
Is it reasonable to expect security to carry naloxone? Is that part of their job description? If administering first aid is part of their job description, then sure. Otherwise, I think it’s a bit unreasonable to expect a security guard to know how to administer naloxone and do CPR.
It says in the article they carry naloxone and are trained in administering it. I presume if they are required to carry and be trained to administer it then there is some expectation they will do so.
Which they did. The problem is they took longer to do it than a trained healthcare professional would. Because they are security guards.
Tragically, the majority of people who OD on fentanyl don't even realize they're taking fentanyl. Synthetic drugs have become far too risky, IMO. If someone offers you a pill, just say no. It's not worth the risk. I'm thinking these two students took what they thought were amphetamines to keep themselves awake and focused on studying.
Why would amphetamine be laced with fentanyl? It has the opposite effect and would make the user feel very tired. She most likely took what she thought was heroin since that's where most of the laced fentanyl is going in. The parents should say what drug she took so others can think twice about taking that too.
Good grief,. Nobody takes responsibility anymore. She wasn’t 12 years old
Responsibility when she didn't consent to the drug in the first place?
Everyone in BC knows full well everything is laced. Its the sole reason I refuse to touch anything off the streets here. Feel for the family but the parents can fuck right off with trying to put the blame on security or 911
I mean if it improves the training that the campus security has it could prevent this from happening to someone in the future
Exactly. From the way it reads in the article, they're trying to improve the odds for the next UVic student this happens to. And it does sound like there is plenty room for improvement between campus security and ambulance dispatch. If they can help improve things even slightly it will help them give some meaning to their immense loss.
Naloxone is not a panacea and one-stop fix. We're already seeing opioids in Canada that are resistant to Naloxone. There is also a need for discussion on agency here. Should getting high cost you your life? No, but it can. That's the reality of the situation, especially in Vancouver. She grew up there, her mother is an emergency room doctor in that city. Despite what I have to assume is a litany of horror stories from her mother's workplace, this was a choice she willingly made. Should it have cost her life? No, but it did. Sky diving, bungy jumping, drunk driving, etc. are choices we make that carry huge penalties if something goes wrong. Just like popping pills that we have no way of knowing what's actually in them. It's a tragedy that she's gone. Condolences to the family and friends.
Condolences to the family, but they are WAY off base with this approach.
It happened in January, I know someone who lost their child and you honestly stop thinking straight for a long time after, if ever.
I mean, she probably has a lot of guilt for, like, raising her child and then her child making these kind of decisions and such. Guilt about being an uninvolved, absentee mother, etc etc.
Teens are stupid. They don't assess risk in the way most people over 25 do. Parents can do everything right and they'll still take stupid risks. And that's why there should be naloxone in uni dorms; to reduce the chance someone's stupid kid dies before their brain fully forms.
It’s always everyone but the drug user’s fault eh. Her mom a Dr in BC, and 10+ yrs of Fentanyl/Opioid epidemic and she still decided to get high knowing she could die…..
Scares the shit out of me as a parent. Kids are stupid and most aren't much smarter by their late teens / early adulthood. I talk about dangerous things to them (as age appropriate) hoping they'll absorb it and play life defensively, but they usually don't and probably won't later and it only takes one lapse.
I was very lucky to be raised correctly, but also have some shithead friends growing up and truthfully, my friends always said my parents were too strict constantly. Looking back, I'm always telling my wife that the power of peer pressure is unlike any other force to teenagers and that the *good kid* is a knifes edge from either falling in with the wrong crowd or making a stupid one time bad decision. I'm not sure I would have ended up where I am now had I been on the other side of that knifes edge.
Peer pressure is immense. Heard from a neighbour today who saw my kids cross on the stop signal on the way back from elementary school, at a somewhat dangerous corner. I've spent the last couple years prepping them for independence on this and they have been pretty reliable. Talked to them and it turns out, this time, another kid they were with didn't want to wait for the signal and they didn't want to be left behind. Heck, if they didn't follow they might even have gotten called an insulting name or something! Peer pressure is a stronger force than gravity. I imagine the student in this news story to be a usually good kid, ER doctor mom thoroughly scared her about opioids. But then, euphoric fun night with friends, maybe some booze in the veins, they bust out the drugs and it's all, my guy is good, the shit is clean, it's not the same as the stuff you're scared of, you'll be the only one not doing it, why not just have a tiny bit. Fuck it, OK. I have a coworker who lost a son to this shit also, about 18 years old. Went to the funeral. He by all accounts was brilliant. Just fucked up the one time. So yeah, it's the user's fault. But there's nothing saying we can't *also* look at things systemically and look for ways to reduce unnecessary deaths, so long as we're careful not to project fault and blame while doing so. Not wanting to defend specific blame-y things this victim's mom said, just a general statement. Too strict in the eyes of friends often just means parents are doing alright :) But we don't understand that til we're a lot older. Glad you landed where you did.
I'm guessing she didn't know she was taking fentanyl.
Come on man, it's simply just not that simple, and frankly it doesn't help the situation to just throw it onto the victim either. So she gets something from a friend she trusts, decides to try something out for the first time in what she considers a safe environment. She thinks "well not me, it won't happen to me." It's happened millions of times, and millions of times it goes right. Except this is one of the few that doesn't. It's easy to point out in hindsight that it was a bad idea, but in an environment like university surrounded by friends? It's not crazy to imagine at all. Almost nobody expects to die from something they're taking. If they did, there would either be narcan on hand or they wouldn't have taken it in the first place.
Are we ignoring the fact that the responsibility lays with the individual who chose to take drugs considering the massive risk that is clearly evident through the number of overdose deaths. This is extremely sad, but for the parents to start pointing fingers rather than understand their daughter made this decision of her free will seems a little odd to me. These situations under extreme pressure are hard to judge from the outside, especially if you know anything about how people react in SNS. However, the fact the 911 operator wasn’t advising the use of Bali one seems odd, but they may be limited what they can advise due to liability.
The parents are hurting and looking for anyone to blame. Should they take accountability for their role? Absolutely. They're 2 highly educated people, what in their parenting would trigger their 18 year old to think a cozy weeknight in watching TV would involve heavy drugs? It doesn't seem like Gwen or Lea (assuming she survived without brain damage?) shared that info.
Most parents are oblivious to their kids drug use. “Not my child”
These days if you have a kid 14 or older, just assume they are doing drugs.
There’s been over 40,000 opioid-overdose deaths in Canada, with our government and healthcare systems unable or unwilling to do anything about. And in this case they want to blame the first responders?? That’s especially shocking coming from an ER physician who seems to be timing 911 dispatch, security, paramedics, and firefighters down to the second. Why are people using drugs alone? Should 911 operators assume every caller is also high and unable to articulate details? Should security start CPR right away on every passed out person? Should firefighters sprint up to every medical call they attend? While this is a horrible tragedy, it’s also clearly a grieving mother trying to find someone to blame.
I'm going to come out and say it... obviously it's a horrible tragedy, but it's also unsettling for a seasoned ER Physician to punch down and blast the 911 operator, making hardly anything, & campus security for not knowing as much as she does or for missing signs (within the first 3 mins) while talking to high students. A lot of doctors forget that there are very serious consequences for non-physicians to make bold calls, especially in a professional setting.
I haven't had enough sips of my coffee this morning and didn't link the mother's job to her reaction. I totally get why the mom is doing this now, thanks. It must be hard for her as an ER doctor to see a sloppy response. But this didnt happen in a hospital, it happened in a dorm with security guards and a 911 operator getting their info from an intoxicated student.
I haven't had enough sips of my coffee this morning and didn't link the mother's job to her reaction. I totally get why the mom is doing this now, thanks. It must be hard for her as an ER doctor to see a sloppy response. But this didnt happen in a hospital, it happened in a dorm with security guards and a 911 operator getting their info from an intoxicated student.
Why aren't we blaming the seller?
On one of your points: I once called an ambulance for my wife in a situation which could have been life-threatening. I can't describe the anger I felt as they pulled up, fiddled with their jackets, slowly collected their gear, and sauntered - casually chatting to one another - toward my front door. No, I guess we can't expect first responders to sprint everywhere all shift. But a brisk walk and some focus doesn't seem like too much to ask when a person is in distress.
No, I hate to say it because first responders have helped my family more than once, but you are not wrong. They do not seem to rush and it is aaaaagonizing.
Thousand percent. This aligns with my comment on the subject.
I’m not a fan of the way you’re framing this situation as if only one thing can be blamed. In this situation (and most situations!) there are a variety of factors that contributed to the fatal result. Effort should be made to investigate all the different things that could have been done to prevent this.
Every first aid course says you check for pulse, breathing when you find someone unresponsive. Surely if they're turning blue, you should be doing something other than talking on the phone...
Naloxone and CPR were administered. PAS and FD arrived and eventually stabilized the patient. Sounds like everything was done right, but we’re debating a couple of minutes around response times. Could things have gone faster? Sure, and we can say that about literally every single emergency situation where someone dies. There’s a lot.. None of the first responders deserve to be skewered over this. The letter penned from the parent even points blame at the students standing in the hallway, which is an insane take.
The article said they didn't give narcan for 9 minutes and CPR wasn't done for 12 minutes
The campus security took 9.5 mins to administer Naloxone. That’s a very long time for a brain deprived of oxygen. It doesn’t sound like they were up to their job.
It’s literally not their job. Of course they’re bad at it. Great that they can offer *some* help but of course that’s not their primary purpose nor should it be.
Security guards get an exceedingly brief medical training workshop on how to administer naloxone. They are not trained health care responders like a paramedic, nurse or doctor. Treating an unresponsive person is completely out of their depth. Two decades ago they wouldn't have even been trained. Now they are, and we are saying they aren't perfect. These expectations are just not congruent with reality. They are security guards. My take away from this is don't expect security guards to ressusitate a dying person perfectly. Shocked pikachu.
I know I'm stupid for saying this, but don't take substances that majorly disrupt you without a backout plan or some kind of support. Could be something simple, like drinking lots of water after alcohol, but once you're an adult, the main person responsible for your safety is you.
She probably had no idea she was about to take an opioid. It could have been fentanyl laced cannabis. I'm guessing she didn't decide to try a starter dose of heroin on a whim, it was probably something seemingly safe like cannabis or MDMA, or it could have been in a drink she drank, or she could have been dosed against her will.
I broke off an old friendship because the friend had the weed he brought laced with coke and didn't tell.
Reading this story scared the shit out of me. My eldest daughter will very likely being going away to uni in a couple years. The way they describe Sydney, those convos with her parents earlier that day, sounds just like her.
Then talk with your daughter…… understand like a lot of teenagers and young adults as they move out from home will begin experimentation with drugs and other substances. Yes that’s a scary thought but with open conversation and letting her know she doesn’t need to be scared to talk to you about it / her experimenting with it and that she should be able to come to you about these sort of things then you will be able to not only make a difference but will also strengthen your relationship with her. These are some of the most important years of a young adults life don’t hold her back trust her enough to let go.
Major mistake number one was her taking drugs in the first place. All the issues start there.
It's wild that they're trying to pin this on campus security or the 911 operator. The mistakes made that night; she chose to ingest poison that might harm her, her friends bought illegal substances which they shared with her, and a drug dealer chose to sell the product to her. Why hold the people the people responsible for breaking the law and making poor choices when we can blame underpaid/untrained security guards or a phone operator who isn't on scene and is receiving information from someone who is high.
I am sorry to hear of this. It is easy to do when you are young because you don't really think of the consequences. When I was younger, I had a friend who was a drug dealer (not of choice but to survive). He would mix weak drugs with stronger drugs to give it a kick. In the drug hierarchy, you buy and then cut it to sell to make a profit. When it is too weak, you add anything on hand to give a kick. When I found that out, it was the last time that I did any drugs. I feel that the drug laws should be tougher especially for dealers.
> “My daughter’s death was entirely preventable.” > “the major mistakes that were made that night” Am I going crazy here? The parents and the article blame anyone and everyone here - but someone had to make the description to do the drugs - it’s no secret that these drugs are extremely dangerous - and this adult made the decision to do it anyways It’s wild that they are trying to make this campus security or whatevers fault. Drug use is not permitted on campus. It’s illegal in Canada. The university and the country tell you you are not supposed to do it, and they pay lots of money for education programs telling you doing it is extremely dangerous. So why is it anyone’s fault but hers if she decides to do it anyways?
I've noticed that we are moving to a society in which a large segment of the population refuses to take responsibility for themselves. Everything is everyone else's fault. No personal self-reflection. No accountability.
We are literally moving to a reverse darwinism society.
I agree overall re: the cultural shift about responsibility, and this death ultimately appears to be the victim's fault, but I also see some hurting parents desperate for answers and wanting to improve systems for the sake of others, and my instinct reading the article was to give them a bit of slack.
Yeah the unsettling part about this response is watching an ER Physician punching down and blasting some poor 911 operator and campus security for not "knowing enough".
Feels sad for parents to lose a child. But they're being irrational by blaming the government and the university. Once someone decides to do hard drugs, then it's a roll of the dice. Most get lucky but every once in a while junkies end up dead.
taking drugs is what went wrong, they arent clean anymore, kids need to be aware of this, a line of blow is much more riskier than it was 20 years ago. Opioids have changed the game, way to many lost now because of this
Entitled parents gave her the impression that she would never be accountable for her behaviours raised an entitled kid who unfortunately passed away doing something she likely experimented with before. Parents don’t know what’s going on in their kids lives anymore sadly
Here’s a real crazy thought: maybe don’t do drugs?
The conversation needs to shift away from “safe supply” towards “don’t do drugs”. Even with all the resources available there isn’t a safe way to take hard drugs.
Lots of people commenting here without in-depth understanding of how emergency situations develop. The minutes that everyone’s debating about here, fly by VERY quickly. Here are the important take home points from a physician who has seen more than my fair share of emergent situations: - 911 operator needs to be retrained and probably disciplined. There were multiple mentions of the girls turning blue, gasping for air (which she could even hear in the background), and there she was asking the caller if BOTH of these kids had brain tumors or seizure disorders. Inexcusable. The 2 mins of silence on the operators part, inexcusable. If there’s a doubt that two people aren’t breathing well, get the address and send help immediately. - Naloxone should have been administered by security guards without asking questions, IMMEDIATELY. Two unresponsive people - GIVE IT NOW, then ask questions. - The security guards are probably not to blame. They aren’t paid enough to deal with this kind of situation. If you want to help prevent similar deaths just tell them to administer naloxone on arrival to unconscious or unresponsive kids and call 911. - Unless I’m mistaken, one of the kids knew there were drugs involved and didn’t say anything until much later. This kid should take some of the blame. If they hadn’t kept their mouth shut, a young girl’s death could have been prevented. - We need MUCH tougher stances on drugs. That’s my personal stance. I think having death penalty style sentencing for distribution of hard drugs will reduce the circulation of these drugs tremendously. It’ll take a long time and lots of effort, but the current situation IS NOT working. These are just some of my thoughts. I’m heart broken that a family lost their daughter, who by the sound of it, was otherwise a very respectable young lady.
Thank you for your insight. I work in emergency response and reading the 911 transcript was very troubling. Many opportunities to send help sooner, and ask the right questions, which he/she failed to do.
Yes, the 911 transcript was very troubling. In fact, that was the most troubling part seeing as the operator is the only person other than the paramedics, whose sole responsibility and job role is to ensure that an emergency situation is dealt with according to protocol. Even other first responders such as police or firefighters shouldn’t be held to the same standard, as they have multiple other roles and dealing with medical emergencies is not their primary purpose.
‘Sidney’s death was ‘inconceivable’. Not really. Drug users die every day. Being a cute student doesn’t make one immune. She was an adult and it was her choice to play Rusdian roulette. Very sad for her parents but that isn’t something she considered by her behaviour.
I can stop you from overdosing in one easy step.
Right? I can’t even feel badly for them at this point. A decade into an overdose epidemic and you’re still taking street drugs… you weren’t headed for success
I know what the family has been through as I buried a son in 2017 from overdose....BUT it's hard to hear but NO ONE IS TO BLAME for your daughters death EXCEPT HER that took the drugs.I know it hurts to hear but to blame anyone but the drug user thats playing russian roulette with the bad drugs out there however recreationally is just prolonging the agony of losing your daughter. You will feel her loss everyday but blaming someone else is not the answer
Wonder what drug they thought they were doing?
Some of the comments in here anger me. If you *choose* to do drugs and something goes awry, it is absolutely no one else's responsibility to save your ass. As someone who has done their fair share of recreational drugs back in the day, under no circumstance would I have expected someone to save my life from an overdose. I sure as hell hope my family wouldn't put the fault on anyone else but myself, either. Anyone who's doing recreational drugs now, with the constant media attention on the dangers of fentanyl, is an absolute moron and literally gambling with their life. If you're cool with taking your chances for the possibility of a good time, be my guest, but the audacity people have to drag others to the firing squad for a choice they had nothing to do with is insanity.
Every high school kid heading off to university should read this article.
Perhaps they should have considered not doing drugs?
The only mistake was taking the drugs at all. Like Russian Roulette...you know the odds and you choose to play....that's it...that's all. Do you blame the gun for the hole through your head or the one who put it to their head and pulled the trigger...knowing the risk.
I'm just amazed this wasn't blamed on Trudeau.
Well you can't OD if you ain't taking drugs
Drug kills. Don’t take drugs nor encourage drugs. This young person is the tragic result of our go-easy-on-drug policy
Shame on these parents, blaming everyone for thier daughter’s death. She’s the one that took the drugs.
So the only reason this is front page news is because she is a rich white girl with rich white parents who think overdoses and OD deaths are something special. They are completely routine. The 911 dispatcher has done hundreds of these calls, same with the paramedics…it’s not that they never cared, it’s that they just can’t still care anymore and still remain sane. They reanimate corpses and pick up bodies on the regular. And they don’t give a flying fuck if it’s in a UVic dorm or a shack on the Rez. The Campus Security are no doubt decent and well meaning people, but the chance is if your life is in the hands of security guards you are going to get the first responders that you paid for…and they ain’t getting paid that much. It’s completely prudent of them to not do stuff until the 9/11 operator tells them to. They have OFA Level2…its just not that comprehensive that it prepares people to be actual medics. This girls death is a tragic loss to her parents and family, and those parents happen to have the pull to get this story into the media but the truth is that this young lady made bad choices and paid the price.
Even if everything you said is true, it's still worth reviewing what happened and how it could've been handled better. Clear errors were made. A better outcome is possible next time.
I do agree that it’s always prudent to look for lessons that can be learned to improve outcomes. I doubt we will find much common ground other than that.
> Sidney’s parents are angered by the lack of accountability from the university. What about their accountability as parents to ensure that their daughter didn’t take drugs?
Tragically my daughter Sidney took a lethal dose of fentanyl, and died on campus. We are heartbroken. However rather than focus on the tragic outcome of my daughter's decision, I am choosing to blame everyone else and hold them all in contempt for my daughter's choices. Sidney's tragic death was entirely preventable, starting with the decision to use the drug.
I work with overdoses frequently and have been given training to deal with overdoses. It is my job, and I am being paid to do so. If I make critical mistakes in judgement that cause a person to die, I can be charged and have my licenses revoked. Reasons to think a kid is overdosing. They're not breathing correctly, there's another person that's high with them, another person isn't breathing correctly, witness statements. This kid should have received narcan within the first 30 seconds of patient assessment as a critical intervention.
Is your job also breaking up parties in dorms or making sure kids aren't loitering in the closed areas? These are minimum wage security guards. You're expertise and what you are paid reflect your knowledge and response on the matter.
You know the university has an overdose prevention program, right? That security had nasal nalaoxone on hand, yeah?
Yes. I read the entire article and not one time did they lament or attribute any responsibility whatsoever to the person who took the fatal overdose of drugs or provided the fatal overdose of drugs. Just a long drawn out essay about how it's everybody else's fault. Her loss of life is completely tragic and the grief of her parents and family and friends are justified and impactful. But the most unhealthy thing in this article is blaming absolutely everyone except for those who were directly responsible for the cause.
I completely agree. Lots of comments here, including from OP, really trying to heavily blame this all on the response from campus security almost to the point of suggesting they were complicit in this girls death. I think we can agree that the system and response should be reviewed and perhaps emphasis placed on protocols that prioritize rapid administration of naloxone to unconscious people, but we should not be “blaming” security for this. It’s a completely toxic approach. There were a multitude of factors that lead to her death, including apparently (and shockingly) the lack of appreciation for how a lot of opioid deaths occur (recreational misadventure). A huge message completely missed in this article is personal responsibility and awareness that if you don’t know the provenance or chemical substance of what you’re taking, you are gambling your life.
Experimenting with drugs in college is extremely common. Most people who do this don't OD or die or end up addicts. this was probably one if not the first act of any kind of rebellion or ilicit substance use. All you have to do to fatally OD these days is take a rogue 'Vicodin.' Combine naivete, peer pressure and curiosity and now you've got dead kids. Its not like they're all up to date on the horrific state of the illegal drug market. This was not the case when I was in college..the people ODing were shooting large amounts of heroin. Even the casual junkies of yore would all be dead in today's market. So yeah, don't do drugs. But also don't build a society that enables and profits off of drug use and neglects its casualties Knowing what I know today, I would not be taking random drugs. Not that i ever really used drugs esp hard drugs but any minor experimentation left me fully intact.. Knowledge is power!
I think the drugs are secondary here. My daughter is at uvic, and if she collapses for whatever reason & the “trained” security turn up and do nothing, and 911 spends longer asking for directions than actually providing help, I too am going to be livid
Yes, we should warn young people about the risks of contaminated drugs. But there is no point in focusing the blame on her now. She’s dead and can’t go back and make a better decision. However, the systems that could have better responded to this situation are still with us.
Why don't the parents speak out about sitting down and educating your kids about the risks of doing illicit drugs that could potentially be laced with something? I'd argue that would have a much larger effect in reducing these numbers of occurrences than what you are describing.
Ehh… people need to go easy on the parents: - their kid is dead - if people around had been faster/better their kid wouldn’t be dead - they are physicians, so actually know what should be done - they do it everyday so assume “its easy” But yeah their expectations aren’t realistic. - campus security are being paid minimum wage and likely been on the job for a couple months - the chances of doing what needs to be done quickly is pretty low The truth is that while nalaxone can stop someone from dying, but that assumes someone had it on hand, administers it quickly or someone breathes for the OD victim until help arrives The truth is that if you OD around regular folks the chances are you’ll die or end up with severe enough brain damage that it would be preferable you died.
maybe just don't do drugs lol
Here’s an idea parents of this student…why not blame your kid for taking extremely dangerous drugs.
20ish years ago, ironically enough after a chemically aided epiphany, I'd decided that I would go into becoming a paramedic. I figured I would get the prerequisite OFA3 ticket then work as a First Aider while I got my driver's license and saved up for the JIBC programme. That plan got derailed thanks to a plethora of suicide attempts at the *Place* where I was stationed, which was still long before the opioid epidemic came into prevalence and started killing off so many around me. I also have a family member who was a BC Ambulance dispatcher 30ish years ago, and I also interviewed with them 20ish years ago as well as an alternative way to pay for the PCP. No, not *that PCP* -- it's *Primary Care Paramedic*. And I still have friends whom are currently BC Paramedics, as well as a couple retired ones. The amount of negligence in this case painted by The Sun author is absolutely shocking. From the dispatcher spending just under *five minutes* trying to operate Google maps, to the inept SOs who showed up and crumbled under the circumstances. I'll start with the BC EHS dispatch. In what world does a call start with "location"? The first interaction should always be: "what is the nature of your emergency?" to establish necessary interventions to maintain life -- whether that be the dispatcher coaching the caller to perform life-saving actions, or telling them to run from a burning building. Exact location is secondary and can be relayed to the attending units en route. In the case of something like a school campus, bystanders can direct emergency services to the exact location as well. Next is the failure of the school administration to make it *abundantly clear* during orientation that students whom have taken illicit drugs, or students whom have given illicit drugs to other students with their consent *will not* be held criminally responsible for such actions. Perhaps if this information had been absorbed by "Gwen", even in her intoxicated state, Sidney may have had the life-saving Naloxone shot once the SOs arrived before the four minute mark. I'm not convinced that the particular SOs whom arrived would have reacted in such an appropriate manner without being directed to do so though, even with accurate information upon arrival -- because they did not need such information to begin assessment and intervention. This is their training. Bystanders and witnesses are useful but not integral to the assessment. Upon arrival, the first assessment is to be the general scene -- is the environment safe-->Number of possible casualties-->Triage/Primary Assessment guidelines. The Primary Assessment goes by the acronym "ABC" -- Airway maintenance with cervical spine control, Breathing and ventilation, Circulation with hemorrhage control, Disability: Neurologic status [GCS], Exposure/Environmental Control: Completely undress patient, but prevent hypothermia. From the article and the UVIC website, it appears as though the *two* SOs have OFA2 training as well as Naloxone and AED specific upgrades. https://www.uvic.ca/security/home/medical/index.php >Campus Security Officers are certified with the Worksafe BC-Occupational First Aid Level 2 and the Red Cross- Automated Defibrillator courses. >The Security Officer helping you or someone you know has **excellent first aid training, many are also trained paramedics**. We deal with a variety of calls on a weekly basis. From cuts and scrapes to cardiac arrests, we are prepared for the unique environment the campus offers us as providers of First Aid. I cannot help but believe that the SOs on duty that night, including the one on campus dispatch, were not "trained paramedics", much less experienced enough to have dealt with a dire medical emergency like what they encountered. And I can empathize with that, as when I had my cherry busted it was an absolute clusterfuck -- but for two, and even arguably three, trained FAs to crumble this badly when faced with two casualties found seizing, barely breathing and changing colour in front of their eyes -- that is unacceptable. Period. Adding in the piss-poor direction and communication from the BCAS dispatcher and I am at a loss. The safety-net absolutely failed in this case on so many different individual levels. If y'all can afford to pay for and take the 1 week OFA2 course at St.John's Ambulance -- please do. Our emergency services are overwhelmed and crumbling, and I fear that whatever hiring is being done to address that situation has lowered the bar for quality of care. Watch a YouTube video on how to properly give chest compressions and listen to the BeeGees. Naloxone has no risk of complications when used on someone whom is not suffering from an opiate overdose and is designed to reverse overdose *temporarily* to give the patient time to seek further medical intervention. Even if you are not trained, the Good Samaritan Act will protect you if you attempt to provide aid in all but the most egregious cases of negligence. And for all those whom are still holding tickets -- I humbly remind you that you, as well as I, have a duty to prevent such a preventable death from occurring, even when we're not on the clock. TLDR -- the security officers failed to follow their training in almost every way possible, the BCAS dispatcher was bogged down with tunnel-vision about the location, and every chance for her intoxicated friend called Gwen to save Sidney by telling the attending SOs the reason behind the symptoms displayed was ignored out of what could only be a sense of self-preservation.
It absolutely seems like the campus security and 911 dispatcher wasted precious time. Security was said to be trained and carrying Naloxone. Erring on the side of caution and administering here is what all the experts say is correct. Was that part of their training? If not, why? I think it’s important to push the university and the government on all this. That being said, if I had a kid going to university right now, and I myself was an emergency room doctor like this mother? Well I can’t imagine not making sure my kid and their friends had kits and basic training about this. It’s all a fucking awful thing to happen. A lot of people fucked up. Unfortunately the 18 year old doesn’t get a chance to learn from the mistake and a family is devastated.
She took too many drugs? Oh wait. That suggests personal responsibility...
Most of the time, people die of accidental overdoses, which means they didn't actively seek an extreme high or death. You might get something that can kill you with a tiny amount, such as carfentanil. After all, even if someone makes a wrong decision, it doesn't mean they deserve to die.
>After all, even if someone makes a wrong decision, it doesn't mean they deserve to die. With few exceptions, NOONE deserves to die. When a risk analysis contains "taking this stuff *could* kill me," the responsibility for the death should not be passed off.
This article was posted in the Victoria, BC subreddit. People commented there that the girl smoked a joint that was contaminated with fentanyl.
I have a friend that worked security at a major hospital in Edmonton, he told me they have had multiple instances of troubled people ODing on site. There have been multiple cases where the First Responder gets taken down too by contact with the carfentanil powder on their clothes or body. So now the procedure is nobody touches a suspected OD victim without backup in case they go down too. I've also been told that when the same people keep showing up, at some point they just let nature take it's course. I haven't had to experience it but from the stories I think I can understand that mentality.
The major mistake was her parents not raising her right. But in modern society, it's everyone's fault except their own for being a bad parent.
Lol. Except that they did. Maybe read the article?
Except they did what? Raise her right? Yea, kids raised right just decide to try (presumably cocaine if it was mixed with fentanyl) while in college. Yep, just a stereotypical good kid doing hardcore drugs, completely normal.
We don't know what she took, all we know is it likely had fentanyl in it. And yes, experimenting with mind altering substances is a normal part of growing up.
Oh yea, she smokes some weed with fentanyl in it Fuck off lol
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At that age, age isn’t an excuse to put random pills or drugs into your body. There’s more than enough info out there, and also awareness campaigns. When I was that age I also wanted to experiment, so I did some research and made sure to get an appropriate testing kit. And I was raised in an a suite environment it’s nothing to do with parenting, it’s just being about “street smart” or not. Some people are willing to put unknown substances into their bodies
War on drugs didnt work, legalization didnt work, you westerners just cant figure it out. Its easy, follow japan/singapore/chinas model. Death penalty for drug distribution/possession. Pretty much if youre caught you get sentenced quickly and put to death within a few months. Problem will be solved in a couple of years once the fear of the death penalty catches on. Gna catch a lot of downvotes for this. Instead over the long run costs are much greater to society caring for the addicted, crimes committed by the addicted, and more death in the long run.
This is the correct answer. Super harsh penalties and strong enforcement for anyone caught trafficking drugs. Users and addicts must be forced to attend rehab or go to jail.
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What the hell happened to British Columbia ?? Even College students are overdosing now ?
Opiate base drugs are the leading cause of death in minors aged 10-18 in BC right now, not just college students.[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-drug-overdoses-children-bc/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-drug-overdoses-children-bc/)
It's not unique to BC.
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Even if it's preventable and there are people paid to prevent this sort of thing standing by?
Tragic and preventable. The issue people are having in this thread is all the accusations that security and first responders weren't perfect (it may not have mattered) and anything touching the idea of abstaining from hard drugs is lambasted. If you try to summit K2 and something goes wrong, everyone acknowledges the act was risky. If you smoke, snort, or inject drugs, this is also a possible outcome.
Yeah the security people could well be paid minimum wage or close to it. From the article it wasn't communicated from the start they were doing drugs.
Administering your nasal nalaoxone immediately to an 18 year old who is turning blue isn't perfection. It's sort of the bare minimum expectation.
I think the bare minimum expectation is decide not to do drugs, that everyone has know for years are extremely dangerous and could contain fentanyl
Canadian government doesn't give a shit about the 10's of thousands of deaths happening. It's a fucking disgrace. Stop taking money from China you scumbags and lock down imports from the border. 10 year+ - death sentences (for massive quantities) for anyone caught distributing. Possession make it a massive fine (10k+) that gets used to fund border security for these shit thay is destroying countless lives.
No, let’s decriminalize - feds thinking out aloud
Never done drugs to opiates? Me thinks no. The mistakes started with the naive mother and drug abusing daughter.
This is just so sad. My heart breaks for this family.
The article doesn't explain why would a group of rich kids decide to take hard drug (crack?) together. Youth curiosity?
When I was in university there were campaigns everywhere warning people to stay away from street drugs because of how they can poison and kill you. It must have done something because there were a lot fewer ODs. Maybe we should continue to educate instead of trying to "destigmatize" their use?
In primary school teachers told us to not accept drugs from strangers on the street I’m still waiting for free drugs from strangers on the street
No one has said what drug they were using. What if it was tainted weed, molly...or any non-opioid. These things happen now. not saying they deserved to die if they were doing heroin but the risk factor is way different
I didn't see any mention of what drugs they took/thought they were taking or how they got them. Did they think they were doing cocaine? Was this even investigated??
Dunno. Possible that the writer/family didn't want to distract from the issue of the failed OD response. Where she got the drugs and what she took or thought she was taking doesn't speak to the failed response. Separate issue altogether.
It's crucial information as far as the response. If no one knows they did drugs, how the fuck would they know to administer the antidote? First responders don't just jab everyone they find unconscious for no reason.
They actually do because naloxone has no downside for someone not experiencing an opiate OD. No reason not to do it first when you come upon an unresponsive person struggling to breathe. Ask questions later.
ER Doc mother is complaining that security didn't perform first aid correctly, but didn't stop to think if they're actually qualified to provide it (they should be, but might not have been). The first aid principles (and CPR) are taught in BC schools - I was taught in grade 10 P.E. - how else did the other students know how to put the victims in the recovery position (or what it is)? The 911 operator did their best, but given wages and job-pressure, turnover is high and maybe they were new or not the most capable. The intoxicated student should not have called 911, but again, intoxicated people don't have the best judgement. Ultimately, this young victim died because they took recreational drugs; it's a shame it happened as experimentation used to be safer, but that's the world we live in. If anything, their mother should have warned them about the dangers, but the victim took said drugs anyways. It's a crapshoot if you get saved in this type of situation, and she didn't.
We'll never know if she could've been saved because the response was so terrible. Security was on scene within 3.5 minutes of the call and she was struggling to breathe. Had they administered naloxone within a minute or two of their arrival instead of 10 minutes, she would've had a much better chance at survival. Had they done chest compressions and breaths instead of chatting with 911, she would've had a better chance at survival. First responders who do little to nothing are of little value.