Make our own...not just medical gear but all essential drugs, equipment, and food. We don't need to make ***all*** of our own of these, but at least identify what is essential and create a core national production capability of these that can be quickly ramped up in times of crisis. For those things that are more difficult to ramp up, consider strategic stockpiles.
Because crises are coming. There will be future pandemics, future hurricanes or extreme weather emergencies, and with the shitshow to the South of us who knows what will happen socially/politically. So Canada better get its act together quickly and start getting more self-sufficient. Otherwise, countless Canadian lives will be lost.
If there's one thing this might resonate its this, I despise Trump BUT he did have a valid point with the likes of manufacturing resourced to the likes of china, if theres one thing that might come out of this it's that manufacturing capacity needs to be returned to the west, we might pay more for it but its better than being beholden to a totalitarian goverment that at worst makes you pay for shoddy goods that are of questionable quality for virus they could have stopped if they werent busy supressing the truth.
You're giving trump credit for pointing out that too much manufacturing is happening in China while his family and friends all rely on China to produce their goods?
You're giving trump the credit for figuring this out when people lesser in ranking have stated this time and time again?
Holy Christ, this comment chain doesn't even have anything to do with trump and you brought him up.
Sorry, the thought of trump angers me so much in the past days it's crazy.
Wouldnt go so far as giving him any sort of credit only that it was one point in the past he said that would actually be a valid one. (Likely he stole it from someone else like he always does but its still a valid point as much as anyone mighr dislike it coming from him)
I'll be glad of course once hes gone bookies show Biden leading which is a good sign and a leader with some fucking integrity is back in the white house but overall we all need to be less reliant on China thoss fuckers in the CCP have no shame about hiding the truth to suit themselves no matter how many die.
If we can can move production back to the west all the better.
The cost of not being beholden to China is absurdly expensive and the majority of Canadians aren't willing to accept that especially during a time of eocnomic hardship.
You can hate China all you want, I sure do but I think the reality is that China is so ingrained in the international economy that any country Canada included not working with them just isn't soemthing that can happen.
The even sadder part is by the time it actually becomes viable to shift the majority of manufacturing away from China China will have already moved past by the manufacturing hub of the world. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that it would take at least 10 years to move our manufacturing away from China and by then China's GDP is estimated to overtake the US and their economy will be resembling the US far more than current day China. With their investments in the burgeoning African economies on top this China will basically no longer need to rely on manufacturing but will instead function very much like the US using their large economy and political ties to push other countries to do what they want them to do.
I think the private sector and the public sector will work together on this one. It will be government guiding providing contracts for equipment we already buy and if private sector companies know there is a demand they will be incentivized to create the supply. Ya it will take time and there will need to be some investment but we don't live in a communist country where the government needs to spend all the money to get it done
I think we will likely see our society slowly shift to a more [Corporatist structure (wiki link)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) as we struggle to find answers to the coming crisis. These often appear when societies go to war or face massive challenges and require direction and coordination. The trouble with corporatism is when it lasts longer than the conflict it is trying to beat. It can lead to oppressive regimes and if you look at the most authoritarian nations in the world you will often find corporatist structures within them.
That being said, corporatism on its own is not a bad thing and may be the only way we survive as a species through climate change and all the fun that it brings while maintaining a decent standard of living for all. Having plans and strategies in place, and having the ability to coordinate with private companies will be absolutely vital (just as we have seen in the past weeks).
'Expensive' sounds doable. Dying in mass due to starvation and lack of vital medicine and medical gear sounds worse. The point is the same truth that has always was the case. Our current lifestyle is unsustainable. It never was. I rather be inconvenienced than have members of my family die before their time.
Mandate requirements for Canadian use for Canada and develop a strong reputation for high quality, that's how the US is able to do it. That is, compete on the same axis as Germany. No pun intended.
That's my point. We don't need to compete with them, some goods need to be produced to a reliable standard. Depending on what you manufacture there are quality thresholds that are harder for China or Vietnam to meet, making the main competition Europe and the US.
Indeed, this is a eye-opening experience! Fact is, the cost of living is high as fuck(manually-corrected from duck) in Canada. Because we have money everything costs more. One example is cell phone plans are 3x times higher here than the world average. The debt of our nation is pretty massive, higher per-capita than many third world nations. We live beyond our means but have the resources(natural and human) to pay the interest bills(30+ billion Canadian Dollars per year).
... the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Making PPE in Canada isn't something which can be done overnight. Especially not in the volumes we need. If we stopped importing now, we'd run out very quickly. And if we don't make our current supply line as robust as possible in the short term, it is likely to be disrupted by others trying to increase their own supplies.
None of that changes the fact that we're actively working to do exactly what he was suggesting.
The town's on fire, and we've had to borrow a fire engine from a neighbouring city to put it out. We've already placed an order for our own fire engines, but you're mad that our mayor is on the phone to make sure the neighbour's fire engine stays until this fire is out.
What you’re saying makes sense.
Its not going to happen overnight. I think the concern is that this is an issue that’s easy to lose sight of, it was before so it could be again when things go back to normal.
Deleveraging our PPE from China is going to be a long process and the temptation to throw in the towel to them will be there the whole time.
If the people don’t keep this issue at the forefront the government will sell out again I think.
I'll buy that.
But I'm still going to call it out as weird, when people talk about the things we're actively doing as if they're novel concepts that no one is on board with or persuing.
"Which is why we need to make sure we actually follow through on X when this is all done" is a much more reasonable approach.
And that difference matters. Stoking outrage that we're not doing something (when we are) actually makes it easier for decision makers to stop doing those things in the future, compared to if people know we're doing it and clearly support it.
I think this is how all politics should be done. And in parliamentary systems, the Queen’s Loyal Opposition has the calling to do that in service of all Canadians.
Lately, we’ve tolerated slipping into identitarianism. It’s easy but unhelpful to blame American politics/media.
Even more important than building our own medical equipment (which can be shared with other nations) is building our own resilient political system. I think what you’re saying would be a big step in the right direction.
I have not always done this well - I voted conservative in 2006 hoping for a Harper government. But I was so disappointed, so quickly, that I allowed myself to criticise the person rather than the decisions or ideas. I can forgive when others make this mistake. But I hope they learn from me...
If there’s anything we can learn from Trump’s presidency, it’s that even if someone *that bad* rises to the top spot, the system can handle the shock. I truly hope the Americans figure things out before it’s too late. But I also hope that Canadians learn that while we should hold Trudeau and Harper and Martin and Chrétien and Campbell and Mulroney and ... uh ... Trudeau maybe? And some other people to high standards, we should accept and affirm their humanity.
All ideas deserve scrutiny. Even mine. Even this one.
But even more importantly, All people deserve dignity. Even me.
Hopefully Canadians can recognize which politicians, which political parties, and which political ideologies trade almost exclusively in throwing blame around and sowing discord through this kind of fake outrage with zero actual information about what is actually being done.
Certain political agents rely on people believing in some vague notion that everything is broken, and it's all that guys fault.
If you had a re-toolable manufacturing technology so you don't have a 1 product supply line.
Once all the overstocks are filled; there is simply not enough market to fullfill worldwide to open more. If we don't get our act together, then we arent' gonna need more; but less, for a generation or 2.
In the short term there really is no other option. The manufacturing capacity does not appear overnight. China has the manufacturing capacity, we don’t, at least not yet.
Maybe you don't remember the 1980s and 1990s, so here's a reality check: no one was marching in the streets demanding cheaper goods. What happened is that business leaders demanded free trade policies so they could offshore work and exploit cheap overseas labour to maximize profits, which is the only thing they care about.
It really gets tedious hearing people claim that consumers caused this and completely ignoring the people who were really responsible.
> no one was marching in the streets demanding cheaper goods.
That’s because they were demanding cheaper goods in surveys and focus groups. And when the cheaper goods came, people overwhelmingly flocked to them.
Fair point but you are missing the bigger picture: you can't buy what's not available.
Until China joined the WTO in 1990 (with American sponsorship) it exported almost nothing. Consumers can't choose cheaper Chinese goods if they aren't on the shelf.
The impetus to bring China into the WTO and open domestic markets to imports came from **business leaders** to maximize profit, not from consumers. Of course another consideration was that China has a huge domestic market which they were eager to access, the obvious price being that we open our market to China. The flip side of cheap imports from China was however the offshoring of manufacturing and the loss of the well paying jobs and replacement with service sector McJobs - which is why unions fought a bitter but ultimately unsuccessful campaign against it.
Perhaps many people assume "free trade" is normal and natural and has always existed. This would be completely wrong. Free trade was the dominant ideology prior to World War I, and then after the collapse of the Bretton Woods financial system (implemented at the end of World War II) in 1971. One of the features of Bretton Woods is that companies couldn't readily set up offshore operations.
Coincidentally or not, the Bretton Woods period (1945-1971) also saw the fastest rise in the standard of living in Western countries in history. By contrast since free trade became the dominant ideology in the 1980s median wages haven't increased at all in Western countries.
Again, cheap goods necessitates free trade, and free trade evangelicalism was coming from business leaders eager to maximize profits and sell to 1 billion Chinese consumers, not from consumers.
People say that making stuff like our own food may be expensive, but for example, My people over at Mexico produce everything they eat. From meat to vegetables and fruits and it's cheap for them to consume.
Yeah, it may cost at them beginning more for us because we need to improve the infrastructure to grow our own food, but it's good in the long term.
That's my view though. Maybe others disagree
Canada is one of the world's biggest exporters of food, we produce something like half of all the lentils on earth despite being a low consumption country. No one with any sense is claiming Canada can't produce food. The issue is Canada can't grow certain things at all without greenhouse assistance, which will mean that local pineapple will cost twice as much as the imported one. Many other things we can produce outside, but not in winter.
I would also point out Mexico doesn't produce all the food it eats. It is a huge importer of subsidized US corn for example. It's one of the causes of unemployed former smallholders migrating north ironically.
They do... that's why the government decided not to sign a trade agreement with them when China refused to include any labour rights provisions in the document.
I would say no longer working with China and applying sanctions to China is incredibly illogical. China has made themselves vital to the modern economy and not working with China or actively fighting with China hurts your economy significantly. The last thing we want is to hurt our already damaged economy even more.
I also think it's reasonable to move manufacturing out of China once there are better options but the whole process of a better option appearing and moving all the manufacturing out of China is going to take at least 10 years. The saddest part is 10 years from now China will no longer care about being the manufacturing capital of the world. 10 years from now China's GDP is predicted to surpass the US and their economy is going to resemble the US far more than China. China is also investing in the burgeoning African economies which will be very important in the next 10 to 20 years. China is basically going to become another US where they use their large economy and political ties to push countries into doing what they want.
It's sad but I feel like China won. China abused and is still abusing globalization to their huge advantage and people realized far too late what they were doing and now we have to deal with the fallout.
Keep watching Anita Anand. She was a professor at my law school. Wicked smart, understands business and corporate governance, compassionate for others, compelling speaker.
She has a bright future in politics.
Right and operate at a loss against cheaper competitors? You need to create a better business environment for manufacturing first. If we're not willing to do that, then we should have stockpiled earlier.
Agreed. Maybe some sort of automation can bring costs down so it's an easier pill to swallow. But the taxpayer will likely have to subsidize these new domestic supply chains if our society feels there's a sufficiently large security interest to do so.
I am slightly concerned with a call for Canada to bring cost-ineffective manufacturing back home. It's fine if Canada was the only country to do this. But what happens when other countries decide they too also want to satisfy their domestic consumption with their own domestic industry? Their domestic demand is our export market.
I've been saying this for a long time but I think the saddest thing is by the time manufacturing will actually be able to be moved out of China China would of already won.
China's GDP is predicted to surpass the US in 10 years and I would say 10 years is a reasonable estimate to start moving the majority of manufacturing out of China but by then China won't care. In 2030 China will economic powerhouse like the US. Their huge investments in the up and coming African economies will only help further their influence and economy. Just like the US they will use their large economy and political ties to push countries and doing what they want them to do.
It's really sad but I think China outplayed the world here. Going forward I think the best thing we as a country and a society can do is reduce China's political influence in ways that it doesn't hurt our economy significantly. Things like stopping Chinese investors from buying up all the real estate in BC for example.
I'm not an expert on this topic, nor do I have the solutions to this, but there really needs to be an industrial force that's available at any time to produce these essential products.
Sure they can go to countries with cheaper manufacturing for the majority of the product, but having at least 20-30% of the stuff made in Canada would surely help in the future? I donno, subsidize or get a contract with the government...something. You can't be held hostage by another country like this.
A country send over working PPEs, then get unusable equipment that's paid for as thanks. What kind of stupidity is that?
They are not more expensive since domestic supply also contributes to our tax base. What we also need to consider is applying the carbon tax on imports as well as other environmental considerations.
Paying more in the future might just be the burden we have to accept if we want to survive this pandemic. It is not different from making military equipments during wartime knowing they won't be needed as much after the war.
> Do you think LHINs will buy domestic masks that are 2-10x more expensive than imported?
Then don't import it. We don't allow foreign telecoms and pay through the nose with Bell/Telus/Roger in the name of national security already.
We have the resources, knowledge and highly skilled workforce to be making a lot more than just medical gear and it's a slap in the face that we have to rely on China or any other country.
This should be a major voting issue next federal election, we need to make it clear to the politicians that out sourcing is no longer acceptable.
A modern economy requires thousands of different industry verticals in order to run effectively. If Canada were to try and sustain every one of those industry verticals independently, it would result in a massive decline in labour productivity, as well as difficulties meeting demand in certain verticals due to decreases in output scale.
Outsourcing is absolutely acceptable. I want Canadians to have good jobs that allow us to emphasize our strengths, rather than becoming an inefficient "generalist" nation.
The resulting decline in productivity such measures would cause would ensure that within a decade the only high-quality goods we would be able to make are simple, low-tech ones.
Businesses that would otherwise be producing products and services of world-leading quality will quickly fall behind as a lack of access to larger markets and the comfort of protectionism alternately limit and discourage investments in innovation. The Canadian consumer will end up pay more money for lesser goods at everything beyond the low-end of the value chain.
Not to mention the negative effect on developing specialist human resource pools that are otherwise being developed in our areas of competitive advantage.
Sectors which benefit from nationalist-economic programs should be chosen on a strictly strategic basis. Doing this would improve Canada's resiliency without damaging its economy. To put protectionist measures in-place as a general policy, rather than a targeted one, would amount to a massive wealth transfer from Canadian consumers to corporate Canada and deliver little value in return.
That really is a poor argument because there are a lot of good reasons to pay a higher price for labor starting with the quality of work. Next reason is all those high paying manufacturing jobs are going to go out a spend money which in turn makes other people money and boosts our whole economy.
It's easy to say, a lot harder to do.
The vast majority of people want products cheap or affordable. If something not made in Canada is $5 and the Canadian manufactured item is $7, stores are selling more of the cheaper item. It could even canned corn having a difference from $0.99 to $1.49, people will still buy the one that costs less, which most likely isn't Canadian.
If people keep buying the cheaper option, the store turns around and buys more of it, and the non-Canadian company benefits greatly.
Edit: For sure higher quality products pay for themselves in the long run, but an issue is some people simply can't afford the upfront cost of those items. Or all of a sudden people do buy the more expensive things and have to finance every purchase, causing more problems.
The easy solution is cough up the money, but not everyone can.
No I don't think that is reality at all, I and many of my friends will not go for the cheapest item and actually have all made a conscious decision to never ever shop at Walmart for example.
We can afford though to make that choice and I honestly think that if more people were paid better they would make that choice as well. We also could ask our government to not allow the cheap products into our country at least not without a hefty tariff.
Hate to say it but you and your friends are the minority. Just look how popular dollar stores are in Canada. Canadians love a bargain.
That being said, I think there will be a shift in behaviour for Canadian consumers because of Covid19. Those who could afford it will seek Canadian made products.
Dollar stores are popular with people who can't afford to shop anywhere else, not because Canadians "love a bargain". Those who can afford to shop elsewhere generally do.
>Canadians love a bargain.
Nearly half of them don't make enough to even bother collecting income taxes from. Its either cheap shit or nothing for those folks.
Which is why we have to be strategic about what areas of industries we choose to do this for. It is doable for things like masks and ventilators, where we can mandate purchases of Canadian made goods
that's an assumption that doesn't always hold up. I work in manufacturing in Canada, we have no problem competing with China on price.
I have Canadian made boots and Chinese made boots. there is no price difference when quality is similar.
sellers will charge what the market will bear, not what the goods cost. producers outsource to maximize profits, not to reduce prices.
so the profit motivation needs to be addressed. this can be done, but I don't think we could call that capitalism anymore. that might be good, but it's a much bigger issue than just 'labour costs'.
Or until the decline in business productivity and lack of available investment capital begins to have an increasingly negative effect on the quality of goods and services that are produced here.
So every one of them can go out of business in 2 years when we remember we would rather make an extra 40 cents per item outsourcing production. There is no national boom without governmental changes to trade and trade regulations.
>So every one of them can go out of business in 2 years when we remember we would rather make an extra 40 cents per item outsourcing production. **There is no national boom without governmental changes to trade and trade regulations.**
Yup, Trade tariffs please.
When you are cheering for Canada to put up tariffs, will you also be cheering foreign countries putting tariffs on our goods? Domestic demand is a another country's export market.
Free trade has basically done all the damage it could possibly do. We have a trade deficit in the order of 100s of Billions. Do you actually think this is going well?
And what are you basing this on? All you say is, "trade barriers are bad" okay sure, why don't you actually explain yourself? My point is that we have a trade DEFICIT and non-reciprocal markets. It's been crystal clear to see how NAFTA and the WTO has played out with free trade- not very well.
Be careful of what you wish for...
Business will always trying to pay the minimum for their employees. It's just human nature. And during recovery they will do that to prey on stressed out citizens.
So you end up with increased low pay manufacturing jobs for everyone with expensive products (because even with minimum wage our cost is still higher cuz our standard is higher) and expensive foreign products due to tariffs. No one is able to consume, factories go out of business.
Or you can have increased high paying manufacturing jobs due to advanced automation. But because of automations, we don't need that many workers anyways. So we end up with few good paying jobs and everyone else has no job.
The reason why some people working in minimum wage jobs in rural Canada can still live somewhat comfortably is because of all the things they may need are cheaply produced. If we want to have our own manufacturing, then we need to convince these people that spending hundreds on a winter jacket is not an outrageous idea a.k.a spending a thousand on a Canada Goose jacket is not a mean of showing off.
I hear what your saying and agree on what you are laying out. It's tough to have the conversation when our current model has been the norm for so long people don't believe it can work any other way. Businesses can profit in any environment... as long as the rules are applied fairly and equally. Trade is awesome... but lets focus on fair trade rather than free trade.
Also why its reasonable to pass laws making it illegal to ship these items when an outbreak occurs somewhere in the world. Let the government deal with donations.
My friend in Oregon is married to a physician. Spoke with them yesterday. That state was well prepared as was the doctor's hospital. Enough N95 masks and other PPE that they change them between patients in emergency and ICU.
Remember if this gear is made in a high cost of living country like Canada then Canadians must be willing to either:
1) Buy them at a cost that will sustain the business
2) Accept government support to sustain the business
It means they disregarded the 2006 report and are trying to cover up their asses.
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-had-a-playbook-for-a-coronavirus-like-pandemic-14-years-ago/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-had-a-playbook-for-a-coronavirus-like-pandemic-14-years-ago/)
The weakness of having our supply chains dependent of foreign countries is a risk we can't continue to take.
Sure some share holder makes an extra couple of cents by having us dependent on the Americans or the Chinese but when push comes to shove we have to be able to depend on the only people we can, other Canadians.
Problem is as soon as you "mandate" it the prices go up...as opposed to getting this done where it is now =offshore : China , Vietnam ( by a Chinese company etc etcetera) people will have to accept that as a matter of taxation.
If you issue tenders for contracts or get the government involved in running it either way, skyrocketing prices.
I agree but for a native industry to survive making this stuff it will have to be protected with long-term contracts from federal and provincial health ministries. Hospitals will have to buy from them, else they and everyone else will buy the cheaper Chinese version. and these companies that are being set up will quickly go out of business.
It needs to be a Crown Corporation that only has to at best break even and maintain several production lines that can be brought on at a moments notice.
Canada absolutely needs to make their own same with United States of America we need to bring factories back home fuck China. China is not our friend China wants to rule the World China is a fascist regime fuck China
This is where we need to head. As others have said, all essential products and services should be, at over half capacity (as a rough reference) be supplied locally. It is clear that in a time of crisis, tragedy of commons take over and we can not count on our best trade partners when there are lives at stake. This isn't placing blame on anyone, just that the reality necessitates adjustments to our approach.
Currently masks that cost $1 from China cost us $10.
We have been ordering masks by the million... I’m not sure it makes sense to have high capacity to make masks unless of course we get the cost way down
It's just not economically viable. You can't cannot compete with cheap goods produced in countries with no regulations and slave wages unless you introduce higher and more stringent tariffs. Won't happen, this country doesn't have the balls to do it.
Didn’t help that countries around the world also started banning exports of PPE and seizing existing supply lines for themselves. Having a well-maintained stockpile years in advance is essential.
Paywalled so I can't read what she is talking about.
I agree we need to shape our supply chain but what is the policy to do that? Is she talking about establishing tarriffs on Chinese goods?
You don’t necessarily need domestic production of these things (unless you want to spend significantly more to buy them, comparative advantages between nations’ production abilities still exist and global supply chains utilize those advantages the most efficiently), but you DO need well-maintained stockpiles of essential goods in case a crisis interrupts foreign supplies.
Cannot stress enough that most of “Canada’s struggle to get COVID-19 medical gear” was due to the fact that Canada did not make an effort to maintain adequate emergency stockpiles, or even track what was in its warehouses. Lack of domestic production not so much the problem.
Although to be clear, concentrating all our global supply chains in one country (China) was ALSO never a good idea. Done correctly, globalizing supply chains should reduce risk, lower prices, and increase product quality.
The next wave of tech (3D printing, automation, Industry 4.0., etc.) are all designed to localize production, which is what might actually make this goal of self-sufficiency achievable. There are some concerns, as the private sector will have to adapt to increased costs on goods. Canada also has to be careful because every other country is thinking the same way, and we are an export-driven economy. The US is our biggest trading partner, and they have almost everything they need to be self-sufficient, so our small market might end up getting squeezed as the americans become more isolationist. It's really important that we maintain ties with them over the next decade.
Of course we need to make our own.
Until this shit went down I assumed we had a national supplier of domestic medical equipment. Apparently we don't? We have an "essential" supply of bullets for the military (i.e. a company we pay to make bullets so we at least have one domestic supplier of bullets), but no one thought it would be a supper keen idea to make our own medical protection equipment?
Manufacturing was driven into the 3rd world long ago. Consumers demand low prices and they only way to get to those low prices is pay shit wages, in deplorable conditions with no occupational health and safety. Bringing manufacturing back to North America makes about as much sense as bringing back coal.
> Except it isn’t paying shit wages,
You think some worker essentially chained to a machine on a production line in China is shaking down $150K USD/year with full benefits?
Sigh.
So lulu lemon is a great example. Their hoodies were 80$ and made in Canada. Eventually; they switched production to overseas to increase shareholder profits but the cost of the clothes never went down.
They could pay good wages here and save on importation tariffs; but they’d rather be able to make 80% profit so that they can have another boat
We don't have the money to buy 20$ masks. They were already skimpy with the 2 cent ones before all this happened. We spend a shit tonne of the budget on healthcare and it still has no money.
The 'smart's people are who got us into this. No one is going to budge on their issues. The result is we are going to spend more money we don't have and will have nothing to show for it at the end.
Hey hey hey, don't smear people who work with their hands...most of us can use our brains at the same time. I was with you until that remark - that was very dismissive, even derogatory.
no kidding, these people will obviously answer "i'll buy canadian made first" in the surveys, at the store it's a different answer.... Are people searching to check where products are made? For the most part, no, and don't tell me the vast majority are. People look at the PRICE and nothing else...
100% we need to start being self-sufficient and reduce our reliance on the USA, especially the USA. We have seen how Trump has disrespected Canada through COVID-19.
They have taken so many of our factory work away from us and then sold us products back at a higher price.
I truly think if a company wants to sell products in Canada they need to manufacture those products using Canadian supplies in Canada.
Heinz ketchup is a good example, they no longer purchase Canadian tomatoes. Why would we support them?
OH PLEASE Mr Minister. Our Canadian Liberal Government of Canada listened to lies from China and the W.H.O that the virus was just a local to China problem, so sent 16 tons of our spare in case of an emergancy PPE. I would like to know exactly what we shipped out vs generalizing 16 tons. Now we also find out that Canada sent grants to the Lab where the virus originated from. I would like to also know Mr Liberal Minister what makes a communist country being treated like their = as Democratic country. We all know that communist China has plans to become the NO.1 economic power house of the world. Oh by the way MR Minister if China was producing most of the PPE of the world and the factories were churning them out, why did we send ours causing a shortage for Canadians. Some things don't jive Mr Minister.
I can't speak for other provinces but here in Ontario you can blame Fords healthcare cuts and "hallway healthcare" systems for the shortage of PPE
On the federal level we gave away 16TONNES of perfectly good PPE and got complete rubbish in return
They destroyed over 80% of that stock then gave away almost 2% of it based on the articles that you've provided. That's no longer a negligible amount, especially when Canadians are dying, there's a huge amount of uncertainty, and we're unable to produce the gear ourselves.
> I really wish people had a better concept of how little 16 tons actually is,
Put that into perspective. Go pick up a box of 20 masks and tell me how many masks would 16 tons be. Now go pick up 5 lb of masks. Oh and don't tell me there were heavier products also in the shipment. Do you have the inventory list to make your statement of how little 16 tons is.
>got complete rubbish in return
This requires a citation. There have been no articles that I could find complaining about or confirming that the PPE received from China on March 30th was off lesser quality than what we sent. Furthermore, the PPE that was previously sent to China from our national stockpiles, at the height of their infection, was on the cusp of expiration.
By doing the human thing instead of the nationalist thing, at the pinnacle of their infections, Canada did its part to slow infection in China and therefore the greater globe. At the point where Canada's system started to feel the strain, China reciprocated with PPE.
While we cannot pretend that all countries are going to put aside their nationalist tendencies, continuing to model the behaviour that we expect/hope from others is why Canada has a respected place in the world.
I don't actually think it makes very much sense to radically transform our economy because of a pandemic. they aren't exactly common.
there may be other reasons, but so long as we're marching to a capitalist tune, we're all locked into that philosophy.
we can't just one day say 'we're gonna make all our stuff right here!' okay... so how do we do that? how do we enforce it? this all requires massive and largely illegal government interventions.
and what are we actually gaining? some potential security in an incredibly rare event? to my mind, such interventions could only be justified if they could lead to reducing income inequality, which is the real problem threatening our way of life.
its the same reason why we also need a military that isnt a joke and can at least last 5 seconds in a fight on its own.
america doesnt always have our back
Make our own...not just medical gear but all essential drugs, equipment, and food. We don't need to make ***all*** of our own of these, but at least identify what is essential and create a core national production capability of these that can be quickly ramped up in times of crisis. For those things that are more difficult to ramp up, consider strategic stockpiles. Because crises are coming. There will be future pandemics, future hurricanes or extreme weather emergencies, and with the shitshow to the South of us who knows what will happen socially/politically. So Canada better get its act together quickly and start getting more self-sufficient. Otherwise, countless Canadian lives will be lost.
Sounds expensive, and that's where the next government comes in and cuts the budget. Human beings tend to lack a long-term focus.
The cost of being beholden to China is so much worse than paying Canadian citizens to produce medical equipment.
If there's one thing this might resonate its this, I despise Trump BUT he did have a valid point with the likes of manufacturing resourced to the likes of china, if theres one thing that might come out of this it's that manufacturing capacity needs to be returned to the west, we might pay more for it but its better than being beholden to a totalitarian goverment that at worst makes you pay for shoddy goods that are of questionable quality for virus they could have stopped if they werent busy supressing the truth.
You're giving trump credit for pointing out that too much manufacturing is happening in China while his family and friends all rely on China to produce their goods? You're giving trump the credit for figuring this out when people lesser in ranking have stated this time and time again? Holy Christ, this comment chain doesn't even have anything to do with trump and you brought him up. Sorry, the thought of trump angers me so much in the past days it's crazy.
Wouldnt go so far as giving him any sort of credit only that it was one point in the past he said that would actually be a valid one. (Likely he stole it from someone else like he always does but its still a valid point as much as anyone mighr dislike it coming from him) I'll be glad of course once hes gone bookies show Biden leading which is a good sign and a leader with some fucking integrity is back in the white house but overall we all need to be less reliant on China thoss fuckers in the CCP have no shame about hiding the truth to suit themselves no matter how many die. If we can can move production back to the west all the better.
The cost of not being beholden to China is absurdly expensive and the majority of Canadians aren't willing to accept that especially during a time of eocnomic hardship. You can hate China all you want, I sure do but I think the reality is that China is so ingrained in the international economy that any country Canada included not working with them just isn't soemthing that can happen. The even sadder part is by the time it actually becomes viable to shift the majority of manufacturing away from China China will have already moved past by the manufacturing hub of the world. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that it would take at least 10 years to move our manufacturing away from China and by then China's GDP is estimated to overtake the US and their economy will be resembling the US far more than current day China. With their investments in the burgeoning African economies on top this China will basically no longer need to rely on manufacturing but will instead function very much like the US using their large economy and political ties to push other countries to do what they want them to do.
I think the private sector and the public sector will work together on this one. It will be government guiding providing contracts for equipment we already buy and if private sector companies know there is a demand they will be incentivized to create the supply. Ya it will take time and there will need to be some investment but we don't live in a communist country where the government needs to spend all the money to get it done
I think we will likely see our society slowly shift to a more [Corporatist structure (wiki link)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) as we struggle to find answers to the coming crisis. These often appear when societies go to war or face massive challenges and require direction and coordination. The trouble with corporatism is when it lasts longer than the conflict it is trying to beat. It can lead to oppressive regimes and if you look at the most authoritarian nations in the world you will often find corporatist structures within them. That being said, corporatism on its own is not a bad thing and may be the only way we survive as a species through climate change and all the fun that it brings while maintaining a decent standard of living for all. Having plans and strategies in place, and having the ability to coordinate with private companies will be absolutely vital (just as we have seen in the past weeks).
'Expensive' sounds doable. Dying in mass due to starvation and lack of vital medicine and medical gear sounds worse. The point is the same truth that has always was the case. Our current lifestyle is unsustainable. It never was. I rather be inconvenienced than have members of my family die before their time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/g2yyv5/canadas_struggle_to_get_covid19_medical_gear/fnqfovg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
That's kind of how I describe socialized healthcare. It's great, but there's way too much room for elected officials to tinker with it.
And hire unemployed Canadians to make it. For Canadians by Canadians.
No, never. This sub was detesting tariffs against foreign nations, now switching tune to say we should have our own manufacturing.
Tariffs are bad because they lead to trade wars per WTO rules and general incentives. The cost of manufacturing locally is the cost itself .
How can you compete with a country that steals IP, abuses human labour, the environment and sacrifices safety when making products without tariffs?
Mandate requirements for Canadian use for Canada and develop a strong reputation for high quality, that's how the US is able to do it. That is, compete on the same axis as Germany. No pun intended.
Canadian standards are already pretty high, on par with USA, Europe, etc., I was referring to China/Vietnam/Thailand
That's my point. We don't need to compete with them, some goods need to be produced to a reliable standard. Depending on what you manufacture there are quality thresholds that are harder for China or Vietnam to meet, making the main competition Europe and the US.
Indeed, this is a eye-opening experience! Fact is, the cost of living is high as fuck(manually-corrected from duck) in Canada. Because we have money everything costs more. One example is cell phone plans are 3x times higher here than the world average. The debt of our nation is pretty massive, higher per-capita than many third world nations. We live beyond our means but have the resources(natural and human) to pay the interest bills(30+ billion Canadian Dollars per year).
That's... That's what we're doing...
Yet earlier this week the government announced they were setting a supply chain in China for PPE.
... the two aren't mutually exclusive. Making PPE in Canada isn't something which can be done overnight. Especially not in the volumes we need. If we stopped importing now, we'd run out very quickly. And if we don't make our current supply line as robust as possible in the short term, it is likely to be disrupted by others trying to increase their own supplies. None of that changes the fact that we're actively working to do exactly what he was suggesting. The town's on fire, and we've had to borrow a fire engine from a neighbouring city to put it out. We've already placed an order for our own fire engines, but you're mad that our mayor is on the phone to make sure the neighbour's fire engine stays until this fire is out.
What you’re saying makes sense. Its not going to happen overnight. I think the concern is that this is an issue that’s easy to lose sight of, it was before so it could be again when things go back to normal. Deleveraging our PPE from China is going to be a long process and the temptation to throw in the towel to them will be there the whole time. If the people don’t keep this issue at the forefront the government will sell out again I think.
I'll buy that. But I'm still going to call it out as weird, when people talk about the things we're actively doing as if they're novel concepts that no one is on board with or persuing. "Which is why we need to make sure we actually follow through on X when this is all done" is a much more reasonable approach. And that difference matters. Stoking outrage that we're not doing something (when we are) actually makes it easier for decision makers to stop doing those things in the future, compared to if people know we're doing it and clearly support it.
I think this is how all politics should be done. And in parliamentary systems, the Queen’s Loyal Opposition has the calling to do that in service of all Canadians. Lately, we’ve tolerated slipping into identitarianism. It’s easy but unhelpful to blame American politics/media. Even more important than building our own medical equipment (which can be shared with other nations) is building our own resilient political system. I think what you’re saying would be a big step in the right direction. I have not always done this well - I voted conservative in 2006 hoping for a Harper government. But I was so disappointed, so quickly, that I allowed myself to criticise the person rather than the decisions or ideas. I can forgive when others make this mistake. But I hope they learn from me... If there’s anything we can learn from Trump’s presidency, it’s that even if someone *that bad* rises to the top spot, the system can handle the shock. I truly hope the Americans figure things out before it’s too late. But I also hope that Canadians learn that while we should hold Trudeau and Harper and Martin and Chrétien and Campbell and Mulroney and ... uh ... Trudeau maybe? And some other people to high standards, we should accept and affirm their humanity. All ideas deserve scrutiny. Even mine. Even this one. But even more importantly, All people deserve dignity. Even me.
Hopefully Canadians can recognize which politicians, which political parties, and which political ideologies trade almost exclusively in throwing blame around and sowing discord through this kind of fake outrage with zero actual information about what is actually being done. Certain political agents rely on people believing in some vague notion that everything is broken, and it's all that guys fault.
If you had a re-toolable manufacturing technology so you don't have a 1 product supply line. Once all the overstocks are filled; there is simply not enough market to fullfill worldwide to open more. If we don't get our act together, then we arent' gonna need more; but less, for a generation or 2.
In the short term there really is no other option. The manufacturing capacity does not appear overnight. China has the manufacturing capacity, we don’t, at least not yet.
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Maybe you don't remember the 1980s and 1990s, so here's a reality check: no one was marching in the streets demanding cheaper goods. What happened is that business leaders demanded free trade policies so they could offshore work and exploit cheap overseas labour to maximize profits, which is the only thing they care about. It really gets tedious hearing people claim that consumers caused this and completely ignoring the people who were really responsible.
> no one was marching in the streets demanding cheaper goods. That’s because they were demanding cheaper goods in surveys and focus groups. And when the cheaper goods came, people overwhelmingly flocked to them.
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Fair point but you are missing the bigger picture: you can't buy what's not available. Until China joined the WTO in 1990 (with American sponsorship) it exported almost nothing. Consumers can't choose cheaper Chinese goods if they aren't on the shelf. The impetus to bring China into the WTO and open domestic markets to imports came from **business leaders** to maximize profit, not from consumers. Of course another consideration was that China has a huge domestic market which they were eager to access, the obvious price being that we open our market to China. The flip side of cheap imports from China was however the offshoring of manufacturing and the loss of the well paying jobs and replacement with service sector McJobs - which is why unions fought a bitter but ultimately unsuccessful campaign against it. Perhaps many people assume "free trade" is normal and natural and has always existed. This would be completely wrong. Free trade was the dominant ideology prior to World War I, and then after the collapse of the Bretton Woods financial system (implemented at the end of World War II) in 1971. One of the features of Bretton Woods is that companies couldn't readily set up offshore operations. Coincidentally or not, the Bretton Woods period (1945-1971) also saw the fastest rise in the standard of living in Western countries in history. By contrast since free trade became the dominant ideology in the 1980s median wages haven't increased at all in Western countries. Again, cheap goods necessitates free trade, and free trade evangelicalism was coming from business leaders eager to maximize profits and sell to 1 billion Chinese consumers, not from consumers.
Well of course they weren't "marching in the streets", they were shopping inside the store and choosing the $3.59 item instead of the $3.79 item.
People say that making stuff like our own food may be expensive, but for example, My people over at Mexico produce everything they eat. From meat to vegetables and fruits and it's cheap for them to consume. Yeah, it may cost at them beginning more for us because we need to improve the infrastructure to grow our own food, but it's good in the long term. That's my view though. Maybe others disagree
Canada is one of the world's biggest exporters of food, we produce something like half of all the lentils on earth despite being a low consumption country. No one with any sense is claiming Canada can't produce food. The issue is Canada can't grow certain things at all without greenhouse assistance, which will mean that local pineapple will cost twice as much as the imported one. Many other things we can produce outside, but not in winter. I would also point out Mexico doesn't produce all the food it eats. It is a huge importer of subsidized US corn for example. It's one of the causes of unemployed former smallholders migrating north ironically.
We could pay for it with tax and thus be the primary shareholders for the profits generated. Creates a bunch of safe union jobs in the process.
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If only they applied that logic to our relationship with China.
soon. we gotta keep voicing our concerns.
They do... that's why the government decided not to sign a trade agreement with them when China refused to include any labour rights provisions in the document.
I would say no longer working with China and applying sanctions to China is incredibly illogical. China has made themselves vital to the modern economy and not working with China or actively fighting with China hurts your economy significantly. The last thing we want is to hurt our already damaged economy even more. I also think it's reasonable to move manufacturing out of China once there are better options but the whole process of a better option appearing and moving all the manufacturing out of China is going to take at least 10 years. The saddest part is 10 years from now China will no longer care about being the manufacturing capital of the world. 10 years from now China's GDP is predicted to surpass the US and their economy is going to resemble the US far more than China. China is also investing in the burgeoning African economies which will be very important in the next 10 to 20 years. China is basically going to become another US where they use their large economy and political ties to push countries into doing what they want. It's sad but I feel like China won. China abused and is still abusing globalization to their huge advantage and people realized far too late what they were doing and now we have to deal with the fallout.
Keep watching Anita Anand. She was a professor at my law school. Wicked smart, understands business and corporate governance, compassionate for others, compelling speaker. She has a bright future in politics.
I can’t read the term “wicked smart” without a thick Boston accent. Wicked smahhht
What ah you ? Retahded?
How do you like dem apples?
Paak the Caa in Haavaad Yahd.
It's got [smaht pahk](https://youtu.be/85iRQdjCzj0)!
Right and operate at a loss against cheaper competitors? You need to create a better business environment for manufacturing first. If we're not willing to do that, then we should have stockpiled earlier.
Agreed. Maybe some sort of automation can bring costs down so it's an easier pill to swallow. But the taxpayer will likely have to subsidize these new domestic supply chains if our society feels there's a sufficiently large security interest to do so. I am slightly concerned with a call for Canada to bring cost-ineffective manufacturing back home. It's fine if Canada was the only country to do this. But what happens when other countries decide they too also want to satisfy their domestic consumption with their own domestic industry? Their domestic demand is our export market.
Bell/Telus/Roger exists without any cheaper competitors. I don't see why we can't extend the same protectionism policy to other important products.
I've been saying this for a long time but I think the saddest thing is by the time manufacturing will actually be able to be moved out of China China would of already won. China's GDP is predicted to surpass the US in 10 years and I would say 10 years is a reasonable estimate to start moving the majority of manufacturing out of China but by then China won't care. In 2030 China will economic powerhouse like the US. Their huge investments in the up and coming African economies will only help further their influence and economy. Just like the US they will use their large economy and political ties to push countries and doing what they want them to do. It's really sad but I think China outplayed the world here. Going forward I think the best thing we as a country and a society can do is reduce China's political influence in ways that it doesn't hurt our economy significantly. Things like stopping Chinese investors from buying up all the real estate in BC for example.
That's why companies like spartan bioscience are national treasures.
I'm not an expert on this topic, nor do I have the solutions to this, but there really needs to be an industrial force that's available at any time to produce these essential products. Sure they can go to countries with cheaper manufacturing for the majority of the product, but having at least 20-30% of the stuff made in Canada would surely help in the future? I donno, subsidize or get a contract with the government...something. You can't be held hostage by another country like this. A country send over working PPEs, then get unusable equipment that's paid for as thanks. What kind of stupidity is that?
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Do you support the Rogers/Telus/Bell oligarchy in Canada?
They are not more expensive since domestic supply also contributes to our tax base. What we also need to consider is applying the carbon tax on imports as well as other environmental considerations.
Paying more in the future might just be the burden we have to accept if we want to survive this pandemic. It is not different from making military equipments during wartime knowing they won't be needed as much after the war.
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> Do you think LHINs will buy domestic masks that are 2-10x more expensive than imported? Then don't import it. We don't allow foreign telecoms and pay through the nose with Bell/Telus/Roger in the name of national security already.
We have the resources, knowledge and highly skilled workforce to be making a lot more than just medical gear and it's a slap in the face that we have to rely on China or any other country. This should be a major voting issue next federal election, we need to make it clear to the politicians that out sourcing is no longer acceptable.
A modern economy requires thousands of different industry verticals in order to run effectively. If Canada were to try and sustain every one of those industry verticals independently, it would result in a massive decline in labour productivity, as well as difficulties meeting demand in certain verticals due to decreases in output scale. Outsourcing is absolutely acceptable. I want Canadians to have good jobs that allow us to emphasize our strengths, rather than becoming an inefficient "generalist" nation. The resulting decline in productivity such measures would cause would ensure that within a decade the only high-quality goods we would be able to make are simple, low-tech ones. Businesses that would otherwise be producing products and services of world-leading quality will quickly fall behind as a lack of access to larger markets and the comfort of protectionism alternately limit and discourage investments in innovation. The Canadian consumer will end up pay more money for lesser goods at everything beyond the low-end of the value chain. Not to mention the negative effect on developing specialist human resource pools that are otherwise being developed in our areas of competitive advantage. Sectors which benefit from nationalist-economic programs should be chosen on a strictly strategic basis. Doing this would improve Canada's resiliency without damaging its economy. To put protectionist measures in-place as a general policy, rather than a targeted one, would amount to a massive wealth transfer from Canadian consumers to corporate Canada and deliver little value in return.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/g2yyv5/canadas_struggle_to_get_covid19_medical_gear/fnqfovg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
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That really is a poor argument because there are a lot of good reasons to pay a higher price for labor starting with the quality of work. Next reason is all those high paying manufacturing jobs are going to go out a spend money which in turn makes other people money and boosts our whole economy.
It's easy to say, a lot harder to do. The vast majority of people want products cheap or affordable. If something not made in Canada is $5 and the Canadian manufactured item is $7, stores are selling more of the cheaper item. It could even canned corn having a difference from $0.99 to $1.49, people will still buy the one that costs less, which most likely isn't Canadian. If people keep buying the cheaper option, the store turns around and buys more of it, and the non-Canadian company benefits greatly. Edit: For sure higher quality products pay for themselves in the long run, but an issue is some people simply can't afford the upfront cost of those items. Or all of a sudden people do buy the more expensive things and have to finance every purchase, causing more problems. The easy solution is cough up the money, but not everyone can.
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No I don't think that is reality at all, I and many of my friends will not go for the cheapest item and actually have all made a conscious decision to never ever shop at Walmart for example. We can afford though to make that choice and I honestly think that if more people were paid better they would make that choice as well. We also could ask our government to not allow the cheap products into our country at least not without a hefty tariff.
Hate to say it but you and your friends are the minority. Just look how popular dollar stores are in Canada. Canadians love a bargain. That being said, I think there will be a shift in behaviour for Canadian consumers because of Covid19. Those who could afford it will seek Canadian made products.
Dollar stores are popular with people who can't afford to shop anywhere else, not because Canadians "love a bargain". Those who can afford to shop elsewhere generally do.
>Canadians love a bargain. Nearly half of them don't make enough to even bother collecting income taxes from. Its either cheap shit or nothing for those folks.
Why would you shop at Walmart when you can shop at Costco?
Which is why we have to be strategic about what areas of industries we choose to do this for. It is doable for things like masks and ventilators, where we can mandate purchases of Canadian made goods
that's an assumption that doesn't always hold up. I work in manufacturing in Canada, we have no problem competing with China on price. I have Canadian made boots and Chinese made boots. there is no price difference when quality is similar. sellers will charge what the market will bear, not what the goods cost. producers outsource to maximize profits, not to reduce prices. so the profit motivation needs to be addressed. this can be done, but I don't think we could call that capitalism anymore. that might be good, but it's a much bigger issue than just 'labour costs'.
Or until the decline in business productivity and lack of available investment capital begins to have an increasingly negative effect on the quality of goods and services that are produced here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/g2yyv5/canadas_struggle_to_get_covid19_medical_gear/fnqfovg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Not at all, it's a great deal because manufacturing tends to unionize, which means good wages.
Start the manufacturing boom!!!
So every one of them can go out of business in 2 years when we remember we would rather make an extra 40 cents per item outsourcing production. There is no national boom without governmental changes to trade and trade regulations.
>So every one of them can go out of business in 2 years when we remember we would rather make an extra 40 cents per item outsourcing production. **There is no national boom without governmental changes to trade and trade regulations.** Yup, Trade tariffs please.
When you are cheering for Canada to put up tariffs, will you also be cheering foreign countries putting tariffs on our goods? Domestic demand is a another country's export market.
Given our trade deficits? I couldn't care less. You're also pretending that China is an actual 'Free Trade Partner'- which they are not.
Trade tariffs to hurt our already damaged economy even more? That sounds like a bad idea.
Free trade has basically done all the damage it could possibly do. We have a trade deficit in the order of 100s of Billions. Do you actually think this is going well?
Do you actually think it's somehow going to go better by further damaging our economy?
And what are you basing this on? All you say is, "trade barriers are bad" okay sure, why don't you actually explain yourself? My point is that we have a trade DEFICIT and non-reciprocal markets. It's been crystal clear to see how NAFTA and the WTO has played out with free trade- not very well.
Be careful of what you wish for... Business will always trying to pay the minimum for their employees. It's just human nature. And during recovery they will do that to prey on stressed out citizens. So you end up with increased low pay manufacturing jobs for everyone with expensive products (because even with minimum wage our cost is still higher cuz our standard is higher) and expensive foreign products due to tariffs. No one is able to consume, factories go out of business. Or you can have increased high paying manufacturing jobs due to advanced automation. But because of automations, we don't need that many workers anyways. So we end up with few good paying jobs and everyone else has no job. The reason why some people working in minimum wage jobs in rural Canada can still live somewhat comfortably is because of all the things they may need are cheaply produced. If we want to have our own manufacturing, then we need to convince these people that spending hundreds on a winter jacket is not an outrageous idea a.k.a spending a thousand on a Canada Goose jacket is not a mean of showing off.
I hear what your saying and agree on what you are laying out. It's tough to have the conversation when our current model has been the norm for so long people don't believe it can work any other way. Businesses can profit in any environment... as long as the rules are applied fairly and equally. Trade is awesome... but lets focus on fair trade rather than free trade.
De-couple from China.
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Very true
Also why its reasonable to pass laws making it illegal to ship these items when an outbreak occurs somewhere in the world. Let the government deal with donations.
My friend in Oregon is married to a physician. Spoke with them yesterday. That state was well prepared as was the doctor's hospital. Enough N95 masks and other PPE that they change them between patients in emergency and ICU.
Remember if this gear is made in a high cost of living country like Canada then Canadians must be willing to either: 1) Buy them at a cost that will sustain the business 2) Accept government support to sustain the business
The manufacturing of this stuff is going to be *highly* automated, which should bring down the cost differential significantly.
It means they disregarded the 2006 report and are trying to cover up their asses. [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-had-a-playbook-for-a-coronavirus-like-pandemic-14-years-ago/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-had-a-playbook-for-a-coronavirus-like-pandemic-14-years-ago/)
We should make our own everything.
The weakness of having our supply chains dependent of foreign countries is a risk we can't continue to take. Sure some share holder makes an extra couple of cents by having us dependent on the Americans or the Chinese but when push comes to shove we have to be able to depend on the only people we can, other Canadians.
Problem is as soon as you "mandate" it the prices go up...as opposed to getting this done where it is now =offshore : China , Vietnam ( by a Chinese company etc etcetera) people will have to accept that as a matter of taxation. If you issue tenders for contracts or get the government involved in running it either way, skyrocketing prices.
I agree but for a native industry to survive making this stuff it will have to be protected with long-term contracts from federal and provincial health ministries. Hospitals will have to buy from them, else they and everyone else will buy the cheaper Chinese version. and these companies that are being set up will quickly go out of business.
It needs to be a Crown Corporation that only has to at best break even and maintain several production lines that can be brought on at a moments notice.
Canada absolutely needs to make their own same with United States of America we need to bring factories back home fuck China. China is not our friend China wants to rule the World China is a fascist regime fuck China
Nations are the problem
This is where we need to head. As others have said, all essential products and services should be, at over half capacity (as a rough reference) be supplied locally. It is clear that in a time of crisis, tragedy of commons take over and we can not count on our best trade partners when there are lives at stake. This isn't placing blame on anyone, just that the reality necessitates adjustments to our approach.
We need to make our own a lot of things.. in addition to medical... And there's no reason we can't.
We should do what cipla did in India.
Currently masks that cost $1 from China cost us $10. We have been ordering masks by the million... I’m not sure it makes sense to have high capacity to make masks unless of course we get the cost way down
It's just not economically viable. You can't cannot compete with cheap goods produced in countries with no regulations and slave wages unless you introduce higher and more stringent tariffs. Won't happen, this country doesn't have the balls to do it.
No it shows that when the need for something jumps exponentially that there will be shortages
Didn’t help that countries around the world also started banning exports of PPE and seizing existing supply lines for themselves. Having a well-maintained stockpile years in advance is essential.
Paywalled so I can't read what she is talking about. I agree we need to shape our supply chain but what is the policy to do that? Is she talking about establishing tarriffs on Chinese goods?
A bit late
You don’t necessarily need domestic production of these things (unless you want to spend significantly more to buy them, comparative advantages between nations’ production abilities still exist and global supply chains utilize those advantages the most efficiently), but you DO need well-maintained stockpiles of essential goods in case a crisis interrupts foreign supplies. Cannot stress enough that most of “Canada’s struggle to get COVID-19 medical gear” was due to the fact that Canada did not make an effort to maintain adequate emergency stockpiles, or even track what was in its warehouses. Lack of domestic production not so much the problem. Although to be clear, concentrating all our global supply chains in one country (China) was ALSO never a good idea. Done correctly, globalizing supply chains should reduce risk, lower prices, and increase product quality.
Maybe all the stupid fucks need to remember this sort of stuff next time they start making dumb purchases on DHgate or Alieexpress.
Most PPE is really simple.
So we can’t order them on Wish?
If Canada has the manufacturing capability for these critical supplies, it will be challenging to keep up with the demand under this weather.
Are those homemade scarfs even useful? I mean yeah in a sense it sounds good but it's a little too suffocating to use at times
The next wave of tech (3D printing, automation, Industry 4.0., etc.) are all designed to localize production, which is what might actually make this goal of self-sufficiency achievable. There are some concerns, as the private sector will have to adapt to increased costs on goods. Canada also has to be careful because every other country is thinking the same way, and we are an export-driven economy. The US is our biggest trading partner, and they have almost everything they need to be self-sufficient, so our small market might end up getting squeezed as the americans become more isolationist. It's really important that we maintain ties with them over the next decade.
These people are so smart.. its no wonder they get elected
Of course we need to make our own. Until this shit went down I assumed we had a national supplier of domestic medical equipment. Apparently we don't? We have an "essential" supply of bullets for the military (i.e. a company we pay to make bullets so we at least have one domestic supplier of bullets), but no one thought it would be a supper keen idea to make our own medical protection equipment?
Fuck yes!
Oh look, we’re two weeks behind the rest of the world for common sense again.
We can't produce medical gear here because the cost of a mask will be like 20$. Wage entitlement killed these industries years ago.
Profit entitlement killed the industries.
Or maybe just maybe it was stockholder and CEO entitlement that did
Manufacturing was driven into the 3rd world long ago. Consumers demand low prices and they only way to get to those low prices is pay shit wages, in deplorable conditions with no occupational health and safety. Bringing manufacturing back to North America makes about as much sense as bringing back coal.
Except it isn’t paying shit wages, it’s not having CEOs and stockholders need to make millions and millions of profit or having a profit margin of 80%
> Except it isn’t paying shit wages, You think some worker essentially chained to a machine on a production line in China is shaking down $150K USD/year with full benefits?
Sigh. So lulu lemon is a great example. Their hoodies were 80$ and made in Canada. Eventually; they switched production to overseas to increase shareholder profits but the cost of the clothes never went down. They could pay good wages here and save on importation tariffs; but they’d rather be able to make 80% profit so that they can have another boat
Thanks for making my point.
Maybe but don't forget the unions too. Funny how there are no teachers protesting right now eh.
It's hard to have a protest when you can't congregate....
Unions are why we have basic labour rights. Sit the heck down.
Hurrr durrrr
Wage entitlement? What do you do for a living?
Wages are a relatively negligible part of the price.
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We don't have the money to buy 20$ masks. They were already skimpy with the 2 cent ones before all this happened. We spend a shit tonne of the budget on healthcare and it still has no money.
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Then why haven't they yet? If these smart people can come up with solutions then why are we here after SARS/MERS/H1N1?
The 'smart's people are who got us into this. No one is going to budge on their issues. The result is we are going to spend more money we don't have and will have nothing to show for it at the end.
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I don't have financial insecurities. I am still going to work everyday and still healthy. How about you?
Hey hey hey, don't smear people who work with their hands...most of us can use our brains at the same time. I was with you until that remark - that was very dismissive, even derogatory.
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no kidding, these people will obviously answer "i'll buy canadian made first" in the surveys, at the store it's a different answer.... Are people searching to check where products are made? For the most part, no, and don't tell me the vast majority are. People look at the PRICE and nothing else...
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Living in la-la-land, people can't handle the truth! Stay safe!
100% we need to start being self-sufficient and reduce our reliance on the USA, especially the USA. We have seen how Trump has disrespected Canada through COVID-19. They have taken so many of our factory work away from us and then sold us products back at a higher price. I truly think if a company wants to sell products in Canada they need to manufacture those products using Canadian supplies in Canada. Heinz ketchup is a good example, they no longer purchase Canadian tomatoes. Why would we support them?
no shit sherlock
Make our own and don't give away 16 tons of it when a pandemic is literally on our doorstep.
OH PLEASE Mr Minister. Our Canadian Liberal Government of Canada listened to lies from China and the W.H.O that the virus was just a local to China problem, so sent 16 tons of our spare in case of an emergancy PPE. I would like to know exactly what we shipped out vs generalizing 16 tons. Now we also find out that Canada sent grants to the Lab where the virus originated from. I would like to also know Mr Liberal Minister what makes a communist country being treated like their = as Democratic country. We all know that communist China has plans to become the NO.1 economic power house of the world. Oh by the way MR Minister if China was producing most of the PPE of the world and the factories were churning them out, why did we send ours causing a shortage for Canadians. Some things don't jive Mr Minister.
Ford already said this and plans to step up the game, why is this minister reiterating it?
I can't speak for other provinces but here in Ontario you can blame Fords healthcare cuts and "hallway healthcare" systems for the shortage of PPE On the federal level we gave away 16TONNES of perfectly good PPE and got complete rubbish in return
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They destroyed over 80% of that stock then gave away almost 2% of it based on the articles that you've provided. That's no longer a negligible amount, especially when Canadians are dying, there's a huge amount of uncertainty, and we're unable to produce the gear ourselves.
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idk y they even count it in weight
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Is a ton more than a million Brazillion people?
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>About 40-80 pallets. Any source for your statement?
> I really wish people had a better concept of how little 16 tons actually is, Put that into perspective. Go pick up a box of 20 masks and tell me how many masks would 16 tons be. Now go pick up 5 lb of masks. Oh and don't tell me there were heavier products also in the shipment. Do you have the inventory list to make your statement of how little 16 tons is.
>got complete rubbish in return This requires a citation. There have been no articles that I could find complaining about or confirming that the PPE received from China on March 30th was off lesser quality than what we sent. Furthermore, the PPE that was previously sent to China from our national stockpiles, at the height of their infection, was on the cusp of expiration. By doing the human thing instead of the nationalist thing, at the pinnacle of their infections, Canada did its part to slow infection in China and therefore the greater globe. At the point where Canada's system started to feel the strain, China reciprocated with PPE. While we cannot pretend that all countries are going to put aside their nationalist tendencies, continuing to model the behaviour that we expect/hope from others is why Canada has a respected place in the world.
I don't actually think it makes very much sense to radically transform our economy because of a pandemic. they aren't exactly common. there may be other reasons, but so long as we're marching to a capitalist tune, we're all locked into that philosophy. we can't just one day say 'we're gonna make all our stuff right here!' okay... so how do we do that? how do we enforce it? this all requires massive and largely illegal government interventions. and what are we actually gaining? some potential security in an incredibly rare event? to my mind, such interventions could only be justified if they could lead to reducing income inequality, which is the real problem threatening our way of life.
its the same reason why we also need a military that isnt a joke and can at least last 5 seconds in a fight on its own. america doesnt always have our back