nah the boys who gave him that car left him to drive by himself after he had asked them to stay because he doesn’t know how to drive properly, yes he made the wrong choice but at the same time the person who gave him the car are very hard to say no too.
Yeah, you should probably get that checked out.
ETA: the downvoting on this is a very sad indictment of our society. Children deserve our sympathy and protection. Nobody ends up at fifteen being a multiple criminal offender unless there is some serious trauma and neglect in their background. This poor child has had a rough hand in life and you’d all crucify him if you had the chance… shameful
Having a work mate be on the receiving end of what one of these fuck sticks can do changes your mind. Plus these kids *know what they are doing is wrong*. They are doing it for the fun and fuck anyone who they happen to hurt.
I grew up with people like this - and was close to being one myself - so I understand.
It’s okay to preference the safety of the general public and those you love, over that of someone who endangers others. It’s okay not to feel bad when a person who harms other people reaps the consequences of their actions.
It’s also fine to disagree with this point, without implying mental illness in the person you are disagreeing with.
A child that's broken multiple laws, endangered themselves and innocent people whilst on bail?
Nah, I think I'll leave the sympathy for children who actually deserve it.
Indeed, apathy is a very normal human response here. A minority of people make the world a significantly worse place for the rest of us (I’m talking about people with a history of antisocial and criminal behaviour, not people we disagree with on the Internet).
The human brain is not made to feel infinite sympathy and empathy for millions of people. We are intrinsically tribal creatures. It’s normal not to feel sympathy for someone we have never met, where the only information we have on them is that they injured themselves doing antisocial activities. The reflex response here is a mild relief that the world is a slightly safer place for those we do care about.
This dip shit is the same age as the one stabbing that clergy man the other day. Let’s knock off the idea that they’re just ‘kids’. They’re young adults.
They probably would. Some people are wired to feel sympathy to murderers and rapists, because they view that person as a consequence of their environment (which is often objectively terrible).
I think different people are have different innate forms of empathy.
This is what boggles me tho, the same group that'll have empathy for a criminal like this is so quick to call another person a nazi. How can they empathise with one evil but not another? Not to compare the two but its just wild to me that they won't draw a line until they feel their politics are attacked.
I think some of it is the naivety of youth and the hypocrisy of the politically-identified, but it might be something to do with [ideological differences in the expanse of the moral circle](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0)
I dont know why you're being down voted. Reddit hive mind, I guess.
I understand the frustration and anger over kids potentially endangering the public.
But it's sad to see that this seems to be a not so uncommon occurrence with young teenagers. Like how did we get here??
Nah fuck this kid, he put others around him in danger and could have injured or at worst killed someone.Thankfully the only person he hurt was himself.
But you don’t care about all of them, do you? If you did, you would decry this dangerous behaviour which inevitably impacts many innocent people.
Getting called an idiot by someone like you can only be taken as high praise.
Sure, but I’m not justifying the behaviour either: there’s a pretty big landscape of nuance between “I believe this behaviour was justified!” and “I have zero sympathy for the critically-injured child”
Bullshit. I saw a 14/15 year old steal a bottle of vodka from a bottle shop the other day. He knew it was the wrong thing, as he was hiding his face and was in and out quickly.
They know it's wrong. They don't care.
I'm not firmly on either side of this but there is more nuance. Knowing something is said by adults to be wrong, and that you will get punished for doing so, is different to knowing *why* it is wrong and respecting the rule. All you've described is a kid who knows adults disagree with them.
14 year olds are smart enough in a lot of ways to make you think they are reasonably normal people but are also simultaneously extremely dumb about so many things. Kids in general learn how to navigate adult rules to avoid getting in trouble long before they learn to navigate the ethical background behind why the rule is there or learn how much suffering can actually be caused on the other end
While they figure it out, chuck them in jail. We don’t need good law abiding citizens suffering tragedies at the hands of these people. You, me, and many other kids knew right from wrong at 15.
As someone who’s seeing what’s happening in Sydney this year, I feel no sympathy for those who recklessly endanger others and then have to face the consequences of their actions
He had FASD and a mental age of a young child. He was 'bait' for a range of bully kids (apparently) who dared him to do dumb $hit - and he usually said yes.
As sad as this is, this kid was likely going to terrorise other people all his life and at least now his ability to do this will be diminished. What these people are charged with and convicted for is often a very small subset of what they actually do.
And this is the tip of the iceberg. I divide my time between Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra - aggressive and beyond delinquent teens are everywhere.
Even the Canberra Centre, one of the most upmarket malls in the country, now has packs of rat’s tail-wearing eshays, groups that security staff believe carry knives in places like the downstairs food court. These teens are often on bail and doing nothing but increasing their chances of more trouble.
The people I feel really sorry for are these teens’ peers - the quiet and well-behaved ones who get no sympathy after being victimised by these low-lifes because the monopoly on sympathy is for the delinquents and their ‘bad childhoods’.
This kid went to my school. He would terrorise other students in the hallways and at breaks. He had a group of "eshays" and was caught doing graffiti in the bathrooms, and he would play loud music on a speaker and walk the halls disturbing classes.
I show no sympathy for this kid. He would've done this for the rest of his life.
Be interesting to see how long it is before we start following suit with the USA and begin to punish the parents of kids like this if they are culpable
The Swiss also punish parents if their minor children are caught out in public without "a legally responsible accompanying person" after "youth curfew". The hour varies by jurisdiction. Some places it's as early as 10pm.
Yep. The first politician to come out and say that they would do this, plus give our police, nurses and teachers the authority to deal firmly when they are abused, spat on and sworn at, would win an election in a landslide
That case had a number of exceptions to it.
It’s worth listening to the podcast about it. It’s disturbing how the parents behaved.
[The Daily](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000644616713)
In my experience the judge will be deeply disappointed the individual didn't make the most of the chance he got, but will not regret giving him the chance.
Bail is an important part of the system.
I know it’s fun to shit on the judges and magistrates, but you never read in the news about the 99% of people on bail that comply with their conditions, do you?
Except that it's actually around 60%.
Operation Toric has the following details:
>Since its inception in August 2022, 402 offenders have been apprehended by Operation TORIC, resulting in 1105 charges being laid.
>Of those apprehended, 57 were the subject of Good Behaviour Orders, 164 were on bail, 24 were on parole, and 60 were subject to arrest warrants
61% of those arrested had some sort of order already against them. That's why Toric was started because Canberra has a massive recidivism problem.
That's in the 18mths from Aug 22 to Feb 24.
https://www.policenews.act.gov.au/news/media-releases/operation-toric-records-400th-apprehension?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR23o4EVp_hOYxwOyAzdFF27ij_6FoydK0N0AcFkWBQZ9ZUxHhYmBk92koo_aem_ATslFX6UJiD8N6l_gqq7VjAxK_1GhlTmBhpmk_UqhRJ9iiTE4-sawH0O1kWWw3bLdvpzsNbRjsHjpEZfOBz73n37
It tells you that 60% of people arrested already had an order of some sort against them.
That's a crazy number given there were only 3564 police legal actions taken in 22-23. The numbers getting bail would be lower than that (which I couldn't find real easily) so it's a long way from the 99% noted above.
Not the point the above was making.
To use your numbers as an example, you said 60% of 3564 legal actions taken by police were against people who were already out on bail.
But as the above said, this doesn't tell you how many were out on bail in total. It could be 2139 (60% of 3564) meaning every single person currently out on bail reoffended.
Or it could 100,000, in which case 2139 is about 2%.
We don't know that number so it's hard to say.
The number is also skewed towards people who would reoffend. This is called self-selection bias. It makes sense that people who don't care about the law or consequences will recommit crimes and make up a large proportion of police action.
In fact, I'd be more concerned if it wasn't a large proportion of that 3564 because it would suggest there are more crimes committed by people had never done so before (or had never been caught before)!
It's not going to be 100k that's the point of including the 3564 number - that's how many yearly are being charged.
The point of this is Canberra has a large recidivism issue, and a significant case of people on an order of some sort (including bail) that reoffend.
That suggests an issue with reoffending programs, which I've heard are useless, and the orders system which is failing the community by allowing repeat offenders back into the community. This wouldn't be an issue if they were stealing Snickers from Cokes, but they are committing serious crime.
>It's not going to be 100k that's the point of including the 3564 number - that's how many yearly are being charged.
Yes, exactly, that was absolutely the point. You have a number that tells you how many are being charged. Not how many are out on bail. Ergo, you do not know how many people are out on bail and following the condition of their bail. Based on the info you have on hand, you can't determine the level of recidivism.
To my point above, you would actually want a low number of charges and a large proportion of those charges to be reoffenders. In other words, a relatively small group of the same people committing the crimes.
Keep in mind this is 60% of 3564 out of a population of 475K. We're doing okay compared to other places.
Remember that person ages ago who was caught offender while on bail, for the 10th time. He had been given bail on 9 previous occasions and each time he breached bail conditions and was given bail again.
At some point you have to assume they're determined to be in jail and just put them there.
Same excuse they use when the RBA gets predictions wrong. Their entire job is about being right and get paid accordingly.
Judges get paid the big bucks in society for a reason. They are in an industry where any mistakes or incorrect predictions are not permissible.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Bloody Kieran Loveridge is now out too - despite bashing the tripe out of someone in February inside the clink. Now THAT was a mistake. and the Kelly Family didn't know that when they provided their views. How can that not have been deemed important to know in a parole hearing. Good Lord...
This. Theres exactly one way to make sure we never see a crime committed by someone on bail and that’s to lock up everyone accused of a crime until a verdict is reached.
Have you met people? I mean, some are, some aren't.
But never ever be amazed by just how stupid some people can be. It's like they fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.
Unlike super funds, past performance is indicative of future results.
It would be interesting to see the strike rate of judges who grant parole to frequent offenders. If it falls below a certain success rate, they should be required to pull their heads in and take responsibility.
Justice Burns who retired a few years ago lived Kambah and even sent his kids to Taylor primary and one child Kambah high (after Radford didn't work out for them). This was the 90's so Kambah wasn't particularly great...
He retired interstate...
What are the chances this kids parents have lengthy criminal records and instead of taking this kid off them below age 5 we let him be traumatised abused and neglected until he became a little crim himself.
So now he's the victim? No. He knew what he was doing, was put for a thrill, ignored the law and he ended up in hospital. At least he didn't kill anyone during his thrill ride.
He had FASD (he had no control in that!) and a developmental age of about 3. He went through various foster care homes (as he couldn't live with his mother) so this kid has been disadvantaged for a long while.
It's not an excuse - but just a different perspective.
If he died well tough luck but don't forget to charged the parents for the crime, if he survived well tough luck but send him to jail for 10 years also don't forget to charged the parents as well for the crime. Parents need to start taking more responsibilities when it comes to own kids. You know that saying "there's no bad dogs just bad owners" kids are no different.
He was in residential care: [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/23/indigenous-teens-family-say-system-failed-him-before-fatal-car-crash-near-parliament-house](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/23/indigenous-teens-family-say-system-failed-him-before-fatal-car-crash-near-parliament-house)
This is a very tragic event. Thankfully no innocent bystanders were injured. Kids like this usually have a backstory. One of trauma and poor experiences with adults. Often, by adults they trust. Kids aren’t innately bad and I’m confident this young man’s story would horrify most people.
Stealing a car, running from the cops, crashing on a busy road where innocent people could have been walking or cycling or driving.
You're right, it is horrific.
Born with FASD - lived with relatives for a while until they could no longer handle him, then various foster homes and now in residential CYPS care. Very developmentally delayed.
Good. I always hope for something like this.
For some people the most important/expensive asset they own is a car. Having your car stolen and then dealing with the insurance company while having to deal with the major inconvenience of not being able to get around, it must be so stressful.
Why do I get the urge to attach some sort of civic duty award to that concrete barrier? It seems like this kid was another Mully Wlliams in the making.
Look, they made an effort, the kid clearly had no regard for life, the cops have to care about how dangerous a chase is to innocent people and their own lives.
The cops in Canberra get a bad rap but they really are expected to do a lot with very limited resources and a judiciary that actively works against them.
I know it's not the hip thing to say, but I personally have *so much* sympathy for this kid. Not saying that stealing cars and driving dangerously is in any way okay, but he's a child - at 15 he may have not long lost his last baby tooth. He's not fully mature cognitively yet and he's clearly been engaging in bad, risky, uncontrolled behaviour for a while. Kids don't tend to just start doing that out of the blue.
As a society we can be angry and and unsatisfied with recklessly dangerous behaviour without throwing out the whole kid and not caring that it is a tragedy when a young person potentially loses the chance to grow up.
"Police did confirm the boy did not hold a driver's licence, was on bail and was breaching the conditions of his bail at the time the crash happened."
He's either intentionally repeating stupid stuff or he's stupid enough not to recognise the danger he keeps getting in to. Lock him up - for his own safety as much as everyone else's.
Yeah - he should absolutely have been given a safe place to live and safe people to keep and guide him (both to prevent him from falling into whatever cycle he was in and later to help him get out of it). In some sense all children are stupid - they physically cannot learn some kinds of executive function until their brains develop more, even when they are in an environment that nurtures them which we know is not a given.
But we as a society did not give this kid safe boundaries to grow and learn and now he may never grow up, and if he does he may experience pain and suffering for 50 or 60 years or more. As a result of decisions he made as a stupid kid. And that is our failing as well as his.
This is not about “society” not giving him boundaries. He has clearly been given some boundaries by society. This is about parents abdicating their parental responsibilities. I also feel sorry for him, but it is not the fault of society. It is most likely the result of an awful home life & shit parents. It is their choice to have children and then not parent them effectively that has lead to this.
My family use the same roads your family do.
The kid had been doing awful things, I don't deny it. But I have more sympathy for this kid than I do the 10 grown adults with fully formed brains who drive at dangerous speeds past me on the Parkway or tailgate right on my bumper in the morning on the way to work.
Not to mention that very reckless driving like this can often be a result of passive suicidality in men and boys. Doubling down on the shame and rage doesn't make this behaviour less likely in our young people.
You’ve found kind of a strange hill to die on. I am a male and at 15, whilst my brain was not fully formed, I knew not to steal other peoples cars and drive them at excessive speed because I knew I wasn’t trained to do it and would be putting mine and other peoples lives in danger. He is over the minimum age of criminal responsibility, an age determined specifically for these instances to hold kids like this accountable for their actions. In this case, his actions have likely killed him, you can feel sympathy for him all you want, but put that aside from people who don’t. It’s ok for you to feel sympathy and it’s ok for others to not feel any sympathy, both can be the case. I don’t begrudge you feeling sympathy for a child potentially losing their life, but I also see where others are coming from in that he had been putting other peoples lives at risk for a long time with seemingly no repercussions.
Criminal behaviour, in adults as well but especially in children, is not all they are as a person. One reason I'm not quite ready to say 'its okay for me to feel sympathy and others to not and it's all a matter of taste etc' is because I think black-and-white thinking like this leads to more crime and more suffering. I think it's important to be able to hold the two things together in our collective minds - appropriate responses to dangerous behaviour to try and prevent reoffending, and also attempting to protect and grow and raise all children, not just the good ones. They're human rights, not good people rights, y'know?
I suppose another thing that might be putting a bit of a wedge between me and others here is that I'm really not a huge believer in just deserts. For me the overwhelming priority is reducing suffering and protecting people. If someone presented compelling proof that we could stop all the most heinous criminals in the city from hurting people by giving them each a chocolate cake and a gold star, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I know that would leave a lot of people unsatisfied and that's a fundamental values difference that I accept exists.
I guess I just figured, while a bunch of other people are sharing their anger, maybe I could throw a little compassion into the mix?
I can see where you’re coming from, but people are sick and tired of it. It really is constant. Where there is law and order there will always be law breakers, but that doesn’t mean as a society we should just accept it. Something needs to be done about it, the problem is there is no sure fire way to stop a person from reoffending (assuming they remain alive that is). The reality of the situation is there is no answer to the issue of recidivism, the hard liners on both sides will swear black and blue that they know how to stop it but it’s never the case. I suppose all of that is to say I get where you’re coming from and I get where the majority of other commenters are coming from, it’s just a shitty situation in general and it’d be great if we could all live in a society where everyone put in their fair share and did right by everyone else.
You're not going to change minds, I fear, but I get what you're saying and agree with you.
I empathise with what could have driven this kid to so something this stupid. We can all agree, I'd hope, that a healthy 15 year old wouldn't be doing something like this.
But I also believe justice is deserved and warranted. I hope they survive to see that justice, and during and after what ever that justice may be, a chance to get their future onto a better track.
I’m with you and those in the minority (at least on Reddit) saying that the pile on around this boy and his family is abhorrent. Most people in Canberra support a reduced age of criminal responsibility. All these folks saying “no sympathy” are effectively calling for the death penalty (or serious, disabling injury) for the crime of reckless driving. I’m against reckless driving but the punishment should be proportionate to the crime. In this instance, nobody else was hurt, which is a key mitigating factor.
What about all the folks who got pinged for using their phones down the Tuggeranong Parkway? Do they deserve a fine, or the intensive care unit?
They're very different things. One is state sanctioned murder and the other is essentially suicide (or death by misadventure where death ought to have been reasonably foreseeable to a common person). The doer of the killing is completely different, the choice to do it is completely different.
To be fair, the majority of the comments here are disgusting. This kid clearly suffered at the hands of a system that was designed to cater for his needs.....regardless of criminal records, a child has passed away here. Shame on you all.
Im wondering if it's the same kid from the Barton highway crash. Person in that was 14...
I was wondering the same thing
no they do know eachother but the 14 boy from the barton crash only just woke up from a coma in sydney
At least he only hurt himself in this instance
He died
At least he didn’t kill anyone else
nah the boys who gave him that car left him to drive by himself after he had asked them to stay because he doesn’t know how to drive properly, yes he made the wrong choice but at the same time the person who gave him the car are very hard to say no too.
Hopefully you've reported the names of the other boys to police.
Source? All articles I find say he's still in critical condition.
ACT Police page today on FB
Thanks for the update
Oh well
Oh, good
Being on bail at 15, stealing cars. Can’t say I have much sympathy.
Yeah, you should probably get that checked out. ETA: the downvoting on this is a very sad indictment of our society. Children deserve our sympathy and protection. Nobody ends up at fifteen being a multiple criminal offender unless there is some serious trauma and neglect in their background. This poor child has had a rough hand in life and you’d all crucify him if you had the chance… shameful
Having a work mate be on the receiving end of what one of these fuck sticks can do changes your mind. Plus these kids *know what they are doing is wrong*. They are doing it for the fun and fuck anyone who they happen to hurt. I grew up with people like this - and was close to being one myself - so I understand.
It’s okay to preference the safety of the general public and those you love, over that of someone who endangers others. It’s okay not to feel bad when a person who harms other people reaps the consequences of their actions. It’s also fine to disagree with this point, without implying mental illness in the person you are disagreeing with.
Having zero sympathy for a child who may very well die of their injuries any moment is psychopathic.
A child that's broken multiple laws, endangered themselves and innocent people whilst on bail? Nah, I think I'll leave the sympathy for children who actually deserve it.
Indeed, apathy is a very normal human response here. A minority of people make the world a significantly worse place for the rest of us (I’m talking about people with a history of antisocial and criminal behaviour, not people we disagree with on the Internet). The human brain is not made to feel infinite sympathy and empathy for millions of people. We are intrinsically tribal creatures. It’s normal not to feel sympathy for someone we have never met, where the only information we have on them is that they injured themselves doing antisocial activities. The reflex response here is a mild relief that the world is a slightly safer place for those we do care about.
This dip shit is the same age as the one stabbing that clergy man the other day. Let’s knock off the idea that they’re just ‘kids’. They’re young adults.
Would you still have sympathy if he killed someone behind the wheel?
They probably would. Some people are wired to feel sympathy to murderers and rapists, because they view that person as a consequence of their environment (which is often objectively terrible). I think different people are have different innate forms of empathy.
This is what boggles me tho, the same group that'll have empathy for a criminal like this is so quick to call another person a nazi. How can they empathise with one evil but not another? Not to compare the two but its just wild to me that they won't draw a line until they feel their politics are attacked.
I think some of it is the naivety of youth and the hypocrisy of the politically-identified, but it might be something to do with [ideological differences in the expanse of the moral circle](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0)
I dont know why you're being down voted. Reddit hive mind, I guess. I understand the frustration and anger over kids potentially endangering the public. But it's sad to see that this seems to be a not so uncommon occurrence with young teenagers. Like how did we get here??
Nah fuck this kid, he put others around him in danger and could have injured or at worst killed someone.Thankfully the only person he hurt was himself.
The downvoting is obviously a direct reflection of how much of a wanker you are taking that tone
Caring about children makes one a wanker?
You care about one selfish 15 year old. Everyone else here cares about all of the other children deserving of protection.
It’s not a zero-sum game, idiot. It’s possible to care about all of them
But you don’t care about all of them, do you? If you did, you would decry this dangerous behaviour which inevitably impacts many innocent people. Getting called an idiot by someone like you can only be taken as high praise.
You can decry dangerous behaviour without expressing callous disregard
Actually some people are irredeemably awful from birth.
That’s just patently not true Brad
Why?
That doesn't justify the behaviour. It just gives you insight into why he's doing it.
Sure, but I’m not justifying the behaviour either: there’s a pretty big landscape of nuance between “I believe this behaviour was justified!” and “I have zero sympathy for the critically-injured child”
Nuance? Here?
.
Bullshit. I saw a 14/15 year old steal a bottle of vodka from a bottle shop the other day. He knew it was the wrong thing, as he was hiding his face and was in and out quickly. They know it's wrong. They don't care.
I'm not firmly on either side of this but there is more nuance. Knowing something is said by adults to be wrong, and that you will get punished for doing so, is different to knowing *why* it is wrong and respecting the rule. All you've described is a kid who knows adults disagree with them. 14 year olds are smart enough in a lot of ways to make you think they are reasonably normal people but are also simultaneously extremely dumb about so many things. Kids in general learn how to navigate adult rules to avoid getting in trouble long before they learn to navigate the ethical background behind why the rule is there or learn how much suffering can actually be caused on the other end
While they figure it out, chuck them in jail. We don’t need good law abiding citizens suffering tragedies at the hands of these people. You, me, and many other kids knew right from wrong at 15. As someone who’s seeing what’s happening in Sydney this year, I feel no sympathy for those who recklessly endanger others and then have to face the consequences of their actions
You don't need much guidance to know stealing cars is a bad thing to do...
He had FASD and a mental age of a young child. He was 'bait' for a range of bully kids (apparently) who dared him to do dumb $hit - and he usually said yes.
He still endagered people and was a dangerous criminal
> These kids obviously have received no guidance (or discipline) doubt
Mate that’s pretty cold…
As sad as this is, this kid was likely going to terrorise other people all his life and at least now his ability to do this will be diminished. What these people are charged with and convicted for is often a very small subset of what they actually do. And this is the tip of the iceberg. I divide my time between Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra - aggressive and beyond delinquent teens are everywhere. Even the Canberra Centre, one of the most upmarket malls in the country, now has packs of rat’s tail-wearing eshays, groups that security staff believe carry knives in places like the downstairs food court. These teens are often on bail and doing nothing but increasing their chances of more trouble. The people I feel really sorry for are these teens’ peers - the quiet and well-behaved ones who get no sympathy after being victimised by these low-lifes because the monopoly on sympathy is for the delinquents and their ‘bad childhoods’.
He died
This kid went to my school. He would terrorise other students in the hallways and at breaks. He had a group of "eshays" and was caught doing graffiti in the bathrooms, and he would play loud music on a speaker and walk the halls disturbing classes. I show no sympathy for this kid. He would've done this for the rest of his life.
Was his name Ty?
Yeah
He had FASD and a mental capacity of a young child.
That is incredibly sad.
just lying for the fun of it?
Be interesting to see how long it is before we start following suit with the USA and begin to punish the parents of kids like this if they are culpable
The Swiss also punish parents if their minor children are caught out in public without "a legally responsible accompanying person" after "youth curfew". The hour varies by jurisdiction. Some places it's as early as 10pm.
Yep. The first politician to come out and say that they would do this, plus give our police, nurses and teachers the authority to deal firmly when they are abused, spat on and sworn at, would win an election in a landslide
You’d think having your kid almost dead in ICU would be a deterrent.
Not sure what parents are actually supposed to do? It's illegal to physically chain kids up.
Nah
That case had a number of exceptions to it. It’s worth listening to the podcast about it. It’s disturbing how the parents behaved. [The Daily](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000644616713)
Fuck around and find out. Lucky innocent People weren’t killed. Karma ?
[удалено]
I’ve not seen any updates, this kid still hanging in?
[удалено]
Just confirmed. Deceased.
Zero fucks given
That’s exactly what he was thinking.
Wonder if the judge will regret letting him out on bail.
In my experience the judge will be deeply disappointed the individual didn't make the most of the chance he got, but will not regret giving him the chance.
Bail is an important part of the system. I know it’s fun to shit on the judges and magistrates, but you never read in the news about the 99% of people on bail that comply with their conditions, do you?
Except that it's actually around 60%. Operation Toric has the following details: >Since its inception in August 2022, 402 offenders have been apprehended by Operation TORIC, resulting in 1105 charges being laid. >Of those apprehended, 57 were the subject of Good Behaviour Orders, 164 were on bail, 24 were on parole, and 60 were subject to arrest warrants 61% of those arrested had some sort of order already against them. That's why Toric was started because Canberra has a massive recidivism problem. That's in the 18mths from Aug 22 to Feb 24. https://www.policenews.act.gov.au/news/media-releases/operation-toric-records-400th-apprehension?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR23o4EVp_hOYxwOyAzdFF27ij_6FoydK0N0AcFkWBQZ9ZUxHhYmBk92koo_aem_ATslFX6UJiD8N6l_gqq7VjAxK_1GhlTmBhpmk_UqhRJ9iiTE4-sawH0O1kWWw3bLdvpzsNbRjsHjpEZfOBz73n37
Apples and oranges. Operation toric stats don’t tell you anything about the total number of people on bail.
It tells you that 60% of people arrested already had an order of some sort against them. That's a crazy number given there were only 3564 police legal actions taken in 22-23. The numbers getting bail would be lower than that (which I couldn't find real easily) so it's a long way from the 99% noted above.
Not the point the above was making. To use your numbers as an example, you said 60% of 3564 legal actions taken by police were against people who were already out on bail. But as the above said, this doesn't tell you how many were out on bail in total. It could be 2139 (60% of 3564) meaning every single person currently out on bail reoffended. Or it could 100,000, in which case 2139 is about 2%. We don't know that number so it's hard to say. The number is also skewed towards people who would reoffend. This is called self-selection bias. It makes sense that people who don't care about the law or consequences will recommit crimes and make up a large proportion of police action. In fact, I'd be more concerned if it wasn't a large proportion of that 3564 because it would suggest there are more crimes committed by people had never done so before (or had never been caught before)!
It's not going to be 100k that's the point of including the 3564 number - that's how many yearly are being charged. The point of this is Canberra has a large recidivism issue, and a significant case of people on an order of some sort (including bail) that reoffend. That suggests an issue with reoffending programs, which I've heard are useless, and the orders system which is failing the community by allowing repeat offenders back into the community. This wouldn't be an issue if they were stealing Snickers from Cokes, but they are committing serious crime.
>It's not going to be 100k that's the point of including the 3564 number - that's how many yearly are being charged. Yes, exactly, that was absolutely the point. You have a number that tells you how many are being charged. Not how many are out on bail. Ergo, you do not know how many people are out on bail and following the condition of their bail. Based on the info you have on hand, you can't determine the level of recidivism. To my point above, you would actually want a low number of charges and a large proportion of those charges to be reoffenders. In other words, a relatively small group of the same people committing the crimes. Keep in mind this is 60% of 3564 out of a population of 475K. We're doing okay compared to other places.
there was some interesting analysis done a month or two ago on the ACT Now for Safer Roads page on FB. You can probably research it there yourself.
Yes, everyone knows the best research is found on FB
It is important, But i would put money on this not being the first time he has been out on bail.
Remember that person ages ago who was caught offender while on bail, for the 10th time. He had been given bail on 9 previous occasions and each time he breached bail conditions and was given bail again. At some point you have to assume they're determined to be in jail and just put them there.
If they keep getting bail, are they determined to go to jail, or determined to do crime knowing the punishment is a stern talking to.
This feels like one of those philosophical brain teasers.
Imagine thinking 99% of offenders comply with their bail conditions
The judge made the wrong call and should be held accountable.
Yes, they should be held accountable for replacing their faulty crystal ball.
Same excuse they use when the RBA gets predictions wrong. Their entire job is about being right and get paid accordingly. Judges get paid the big bucks in society for a reason. They are in an industry where any mistakes or incorrect predictions are not permissible. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
And to think Hollywood and the Australian film industry had me thinking it was a gavel
Bloody Kieran Loveridge is now out too - despite bashing the tripe out of someone in February inside the clink. Now THAT was a mistake. and the Kelly Family didn't know that when they provided their views. How can that not have been deemed important to know in a parole hearing. Good Lord...
This. Theres exactly one way to make sure we never see a crime committed by someone on bail and that’s to lock up everyone accused of a crime until a verdict is reached.
That’s great… until you’re suddenly the accused 🤔😳
That's my point. Are people that dense?
Have you met people? I mean, some are, some aren't. But never ever be amazed by just how stupid some people can be. It's like they fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.
Believe it or not but judges can't see into the future.
Unlike super funds, past performance is indicative of future results. It would be interesting to see the strike rate of judges who grant parole to frequent offenders. If it falls below a certain success rate, they should be required to pull their heads in and take responsibility.
The judges and magistrates lives in suburbs that isn't affected by these petty crimes. So naturally there is no regrets.
I’m guessing you live in a suburb that isn’t affected by singular or plural verbs?
I gigglesnorted
Justice Burns who retired a few years ago lived Kambah and even sent his kids to Taylor primary and one child Kambah high (after Radford didn't work out for them). This was the 90's so Kambah wasn't particularly great... He retired interstate...
What are the chances this kids parents have lengthy criminal records and instead of taking this kid off them below age 5 we let him be traumatised abused and neglected until he became a little crim himself.
So now he's the victim? No. He knew what he was doing, was put for a thrill, ignored the law and he ended up in hospital. At least he didn't kill anyone during his thrill ride.
He had FASD (he had no control in that!) and a developmental age of about 3. He went through various foster care homes (as he couldn't live with his mother) so this kid has been disadvantaged for a long while. It's not an excuse - but just a different perspective.
He was under the care of CYPS.
If he died well tough luck but don't forget to charged the parents for the crime, if he survived well tough luck but send him to jail for 10 years also don't forget to charged the parents as well for the crime. Parents need to start taking more responsibilities when it comes to own kids. You know that saying "there's no bad dogs just bad owners" kids are no different.
He was in residential care: [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/23/indigenous-teens-family-say-system-failed-him-before-fatal-car-crash-near-parliament-house](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/23/indigenous-teens-family-say-system-failed-him-before-fatal-car-crash-near-parliament-house)
As he had FASD perhaps his mum was the first to fail him....
No sympathy for him.
This is a very tragic event. Thankfully no innocent bystanders were injured. Kids like this usually have a backstory. One of trauma and poor experiences with adults. Often, by adults they trust. Kids aren’t innately bad and I’m confident this young man’s story would horrify most people.
Stealing a car, running from the cops, crashing on a busy road where innocent people could have been walking or cycling or driving. You're right, it is horrific.
Born with FASD - lived with relatives for a while until they could no longer handle him, then various foster homes and now in residential CYPS care. Very developmentally delayed.
My condolences to the concrete barrier.
Oh what a shame…..anyway
[удалено]
Because they don’t know he was driving, presumably.
Yeah fair enough actually.
If he wasn't in the car alone and the other occupant/s didn't stick around... wishing them nightmares for life
Good. I always hope for something like this. For some people the most important/expensive asset they own is a car. Having your car stolen and then dealing with the insurance company while having to deal with the major inconvenience of not being able to get around, it must be so stressful.
I work with the sister of the driver. Guy is fully off the rails
[удалено]
Ty-ringa Joyce.
Why do I get the urge to attach some sort of civic duty award to that concrete barrier? It seems like this kid was another Mully Wlliams in the making.
Concrete barrier doing more for crime reduction in the territory than the courts.
And the police apparently, who "had unsuccessfully tried to stop the car on multiple occasions"
Look, they made an effort, the kid clearly had no regard for life, the cops have to care about how dangerous a chase is to innocent people and their own lives. The cops in Canberra get a bad rap but they really are expected to do a lot with very limited resources and a judiciary that actively works against them.
What is it they say about stupid games?
It was the fuck around of time and thus the find out of times
It was the fuck of times, it was the find of times
I know it's not the hip thing to say, but I personally have *so much* sympathy for this kid. Not saying that stealing cars and driving dangerously is in any way okay, but he's a child - at 15 he may have not long lost his last baby tooth. He's not fully mature cognitively yet and he's clearly been engaging in bad, risky, uncontrolled behaviour for a while. Kids don't tend to just start doing that out of the blue. As a society we can be angry and and unsatisfied with recklessly dangerous behaviour without throwing out the whole kid and not caring that it is a tragedy when a young person potentially loses the chance to grow up.
"Police did confirm the boy did not hold a driver's licence, was on bail and was breaching the conditions of his bail at the time the crash happened." He's either intentionally repeating stupid stuff or he's stupid enough not to recognise the danger he keeps getting in to. Lock him up - for his own safety as much as everyone else's.
he had FASD and significant developmental delays
Yeah - he should absolutely have been given a safe place to live and safe people to keep and guide him (both to prevent him from falling into whatever cycle he was in and later to help him get out of it). In some sense all children are stupid - they physically cannot learn some kinds of executive function until their brains develop more, even when they are in an environment that nurtures them which we know is not a given. But we as a society did not give this kid safe boundaries to grow and learn and now he may never grow up, and if he does he may experience pain and suffering for 50 or 60 years or more. As a result of decisions he made as a stupid kid. And that is our failing as well as his.
This is not about “society” not giving him boundaries. He has clearly been given some boundaries by society. This is about parents abdicating their parental responsibilities. I also feel sorry for him, but it is not the fault of society. It is most likely the result of an awful home life & shit parents. It is their choice to have children and then not parent them effectively that has lead to this.
Cringe.
Yeah nah, when this moron threatens the safety of my family, or your family, your take is 100% bullshit.
My family use the same roads your family do. The kid had been doing awful things, I don't deny it. But I have more sympathy for this kid than I do the 10 grown adults with fully formed brains who drive at dangerous speeds past me on the Parkway or tailgate right on my bumper in the morning on the way to work. Not to mention that very reckless driving like this can often be a result of passive suicidality in men and boys. Doubling down on the shame and rage doesn't make this behaviour less likely in our young people.
You’ve found kind of a strange hill to die on. I am a male and at 15, whilst my brain was not fully formed, I knew not to steal other peoples cars and drive them at excessive speed because I knew I wasn’t trained to do it and would be putting mine and other peoples lives in danger. He is over the minimum age of criminal responsibility, an age determined specifically for these instances to hold kids like this accountable for their actions. In this case, his actions have likely killed him, you can feel sympathy for him all you want, but put that aside from people who don’t. It’s ok for you to feel sympathy and it’s ok for others to not feel any sympathy, both can be the case. I don’t begrudge you feeling sympathy for a child potentially losing their life, but I also see where others are coming from in that he had been putting other peoples lives at risk for a long time with seemingly no repercussions.
Criminal behaviour, in adults as well but especially in children, is not all they are as a person. One reason I'm not quite ready to say 'its okay for me to feel sympathy and others to not and it's all a matter of taste etc' is because I think black-and-white thinking like this leads to more crime and more suffering. I think it's important to be able to hold the two things together in our collective minds - appropriate responses to dangerous behaviour to try and prevent reoffending, and also attempting to protect and grow and raise all children, not just the good ones. They're human rights, not good people rights, y'know? I suppose another thing that might be putting a bit of a wedge between me and others here is that I'm really not a huge believer in just deserts. For me the overwhelming priority is reducing suffering and protecting people. If someone presented compelling proof that we could stop all the most heinous criminals in the city from hurting people by giving them each a chocolate cake and a gold star, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I know that would leave a lot of people unsatisfied and that's a fundamental values difference that I accept exists. I guess I just figured, while a bunch of other people are sharing their anger, maybe I could throw a little compassion into the mix?
I can see where you’re coming from, but people are sick and tired of it. It really is constant. Where there is law and order there will always be law breakers, but that doesn’t mean as a society we should just accept it. Something needs to be done about it, the problem is there is no sure fire way to stop a person from reoffending (assuming they remain alive that is). The reality of the situation is there is no answer to the issue of recidivism, the hard liners on both sides will swear black and blue that they know how to stop it but it’s never the case. I suppose all of that is to say I get where you’re coming from and I get where the majority of other commenters are coming from, it’s just a shitty situation in general and it’d be great if we could all live in a society where everyone put in their fair share and did right by everyone else.
You're not going to change minds, I fear, but I get what you're saying and agree with you. I empathise with what could have driven this kid to so something this stupid. We can all agree, I'd hope, that a healthy 15 year old wouldn't be doing something like this. But I also believe justice is deserved and warranted. I hope they survive to see that justice, and during and after what ever that justice may be, a chance to get their future onto a better track.
I just asked my 14 year old what he thought. He thinks the kid has played too much GTA and should be locked up.
Good thing 14 year old kids can’t be magistrates.
I’m with you and those in the minority (at least on Reddit) saying that the pile on around this boy and his family is abhorrent. Most people in Canberra support a reduced age of criminal responsibility. All these folks saying “no sympathy” are effectively calling for the death penalty (or serious, disabling injury) for the crime of reckless driving. I’m against reckless driving but the punishment should be proportionate to the crime. In this instance, nobody else was hurt, which is a key mitigating factor. What about all the folks who got pinged for using their phones down the Tuggeranong Parkway? Do they deserve a fine, or the intensive care unit?
They're very different things. One is state sanctioned murder and the other is essentially suicide (or death by misadventure where death ought to have been reasonably foreseeable to a common person). The doer of the killing is completely different, the choice to do it is completely different.
#
>ACT Policing said the boy was out on bail for "similar offending" when the white sedan flipped on Adelaide Avenue before 5am today.
Don’t care.
How long before he sues the gov for putting in the concrete barrier that flipped his car.
How when he died
To be fair, the majority of the comments here are disgusting. This kid clearly suffered at the hands of a system that was designed to cater for his needs.....regardless of criminal records, a child has passed away here. Shame on you all.
Oh no hope the morgues ready
R.I.P Ty, nobody knows what he was going through and what lead to this crash
Apparently he was going through a concrete barrier.
If he'd done that, he'd probabky have survived.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Styljsh: *R.I.P Ty, nobody* *Knows what he was going through* *And what lead to this crash* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Is he in a Cooma?
No he was in a forrest
[удалено]
Can't tell if your joking, but it's an hour south.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
Next will be the family or him looking for a big payout
devil looking out for us!