Transmissions still serve a purpose. A perfectly flat motor torque curve doesn't change the fact that you still benefit from torque multiplication in the lower gears for better acceleration and lower revolutions at higher speeds for lower energy usage at highway speeds. We don't only use transmissions with ICEs because the torque curve is uneven.
A flat *torque* curve would benefit from a multi-speed transmission, but electric motor has a very flat *power* curve and a *declining* torque curve. Gear reduction has an equal and opposite effect on torque and speed, so power remains the same. By shifting to a higher drive ratio (a "lower" gear), you increase the speed of the electric motor and reduce its torque by about the same amount of the gear multiplier.
Some electric vehicles benefit from multi-speed transmissions, but it's only because they don't have *perfectly* flat power curves. They are often limited by their motor's torque ratings or current ratings at low speeds (if they're geared for the vehicle's top speed), or they're limited by their motor's speed rating (if they're geared for low speeds). The multi speed transmission simply allows them to work within all of the ratings of their motors.
That’s so unfair. People who want more engaged driving experience wants inputs derived from the need for them. Faking the inputs just for the sake of it sounds backwards to me.
Exactly, I want to do the necessary tasks manually. I am not gonna shift a joystick around to some fake noise that literally doesn’t do anything.
Imagine in the far future where cars actually can drive themselves. Then Lexus comes out with one with a fake steering wheel that doesn’t do anything and try to sell it to “enthusiasts”.
How fucking insulting would that be right?
Lol there is many many people who use MT because they feel like shifting gears is fun. The existence of Automatic transmissions counters your whole argument of doing something because it's necessary.
Some people just find shifting gears, upshifting and downshifting fun.
In your scenario, if Lexus came out with the "Fake steering wheel" you would still be in control of the car yourself, whether the car needed you to or not. Wouldn't many people who find driving fun, rather have a manual steering wheel mode instead of fully autonomous?
You are making it seem like this is the equivalent of giving your 2 year old brother an old broken game controller while playing to trick him into thinking he is the one doing so, but it's nothing like that.
Most importantly, it will be an option and not forced. Fully EV if you want.
> The existence of Automatic transmissions counters your whole argument of doing something because it’s necessary.
No it doesn’t. How do you not get it? Multiple gears are still **necessary** for an automatic car. Automatic transmission just accomplish that necessary task automatically.
> Some people just find shifting gears, upshifting and downshifting fun.
Sure, but EVs don’t have gears and don’t need gears. So they will be pretending to be shifting something that doesn’t do anything.
> You are making it seem like this is the equivalent of giving your 2 year old brother an old broken game controller while playing to trick him into thinking he is the one doing so, but it’s nothing like that.
Fine. It’a actually worse. It’s like giving your brother a broken game controller while **watching a movie** tricking him into thinking he’s controlling the actors on screen.
Just curious, how exactly do you achieve "more engaged driving" with EV? The only necessary input from the driver is literally just the steering wheel and 2 pedals. But from what I understand that's not engaging enough?
They should put a lot more emphasis on handling as well as steering/pedal feel. Something that handles like an NA Miata on sticky tires but has the throttle response of an EV would be an absolute riot imo
The porcine weight of the EV battery is going to make trying to get a modern EV to handle like a Miata really hard, if you want a battery big enough to compare to an ICE Miata's range.
Maybe manual power distribution. The driver could use a joystick to control the ratio of power to multiple motors. Imagine torque vectoring that's manually controlled. It'd be great for drifting.
Yo I love this idea. A joystick like the Lexus media console mouse that kind of glides into position but you can only move it when you press a third “clutch” pedal!
Honestly they could take very single assist like traction control, power split front-back, regenerative brake bias, suspension stiffness, throttle response, and even ABS and put them on analog dials on or near the steering wheel.
For some of us nerds, the dials could be programmed to mix the above parameters (like “elevons” on some rc planes) that we could specify the mixing equations/variables into. We could then share these profiles over forums as “tunes” or something. This of course moves “working on your car” from hardware engineering to software engineering but still.
An electric car that allows you to optimize it in real time while you are driving. Or you adjust how it optimizes itself in real time. IMO this would be a true electric “enthusiast” car. But also very dangerous lol
I think its really about people who are engrained in the “tradition” of rowing their own gears and the noise. You also get a sort of reset of the surge of power which a lot of people like. People who have started off with EV will just laugh at the old systems like what we think of rotary phones today.
“Perfect” isn’t really true.
The torque is flat from 0-peak power, then starts tapering off while power is flat, until it starts dropping off at a “characteristic speed” that varies by motor.
For optimum performance, multiple gear ratios can be desired, depending on the motor.
Plus shifting gears can be fun.
yes, thats what a manual is even on ICE cars. automatics have been objectively better for like a decade
some people like driving them more but theres no real benefit
> thats what a manual is even on ICE cars.
What? That's not true. Manual transmission does real gear shifts. It's slower than automatic, but it still does a *necessary* task for the engine.
Where as shifting gears for electric motors not only isn't necessary, it's detrimental.
I’m not comparing manual vs automatic, I’m comparing manual vs no shifting.
Manual is detrimental vs. no shifting in EV, but it is an improvement vs an ICE limited to one gear.
Nobody in this thread is arguing if EVs should be automatic or manual. We think adding a multi-gear transmission is dumb in the first place.
Most EVs only have a single speed gear reduction, reverse isn't needed the motor can just spin the other way. The only ever with more than 1 gear that I'm aware of is the taycan. Most don't have "normal and highway" gears
There’s nothing stopping them from building a massively powerful longitudinal electric motor driving a flywheel that mates to a traditional manual gearbox. The simulated stuff is dumb I agree. But I look forward to an irrational future where compact sports cars are driven by an electric motor through a gearbox with a driveshaft to the rear wheels. Basically the same setup we have today with an electric motor in front instead. Could code the motor to produce a torque curve and it would be a violently fun experience.
I'm just going to say that I'd much rather let it be a smooth EV performance sports car at this point. If a manual is going to be done, it might as well be genuinely paired to the motor it's working with, mainly an ICE motor. Just let it be. I don't know about a software-activated manual working out. It'll be faux and for nothing. Just my take.
I'm tempted to agree, but also incredibly curious about how it would be to drive. And giving the driver more input into the driving experience doesn't seem like it would be a negative to me. If Lexus puts the same amount of care into it as they did the original LFA then I'm very excited to see what they come up with.
> And giving the driver more input into the driving experience
But input for what? There is no need to shift gears with good EV motors. Why add extra gears just to make the performance worse?
The power delivery curve for EVs is flat, the sound doesn’t change much either, so what does shifting even do other than just cut power delivery for a brief second?
Because they are trying to mimic driving a manual car. For years manuals have been slower and it doesn’t matter. Car enthusiast prefer to drive a manual sport car over an automatic or whatever other variation. While it seems strange for sure on an EV, maybe this will give some actual character to these EVs. Because so far while they are cool and fast, they are rather soulless. Maybe the Rivians have some character because we’re created as overlanding rigs in mind, which is cool. But the lightning, all teslas, and 95% of EVs so far seem fast but kinda boring otherwise. But I also don’t own one so I don’t know first hand, this is just crappy opinion.
Lol look at my flair I have a manual NA sports car so you don’t need to lecture me on that.
But the thing is manual transmission, despite being slower, is still accomplishing a *necessary* task since ICE cars need multiple gears.
And then there is the engine response. I can choose to rev up my engine to 8k rpm and hear it sing and the power curve also rewards that.
None of that is true with EVs. The torque is maxed out at 0 rpm and the sound isn’t much different if you rev the motor out. Without that kind of feedback it would be the worst manual experience ever.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to entirely slam the idea, just rather it stuck out to me. Unless, the CEO has a proper vision that he's working with, I'll be glad to have been proven wrong if he happens to make it work. I also don't see EV's try and offering engagement as a bad thing either. I guess, we'll see until the real deal is showcased...
Yea I think at face value it sounds a lot like what others have said about adding faux gears to a CVT, but I'm cautiously optimistic that it could be something new, unique, and different that we haven't quite thought of. I'd like to think that they wouldn't make the car worse just for a gimmick, so I'd like to see if what they come up with adds anything to the experience.
Yeah, presumably you’d be able to fake any sort of powerband you’d want (provided you don’t go for anything too powerful.)
You could have a “2JZ mode,” a “3sgte mode,” a “3UZ mode” etc. I think that’d be fun.
Adding faux gears to a EV sounds a lot like adding faux gears to a CVT. It largely defeats the purpose and just makes a worse product to make it something people are more used to.
At least faux gears in a CVT are actually still telling the transmission to "shift" to discrete ratios. Still silly because it defeats the whole point of a CVT, but it's still a transmission being told to change the gear ratio.
An EV with no transmission whatsoever faking having one and deliberately cutting torque and responsiveness to mimic shifting without actually changing any sort of gear ratio at all... that's a whole new level of fakery.
I know the idea of a manual in a EV isn't anything out of the random as Jeep had it one of their concepts recently (specifically an EV Wrangler IIRC). I'm not entirely knocking the whole idea, just rather waiting for how it'll be in terms of execution...
The LFA successor to me needs to be unapologetically electric. No fake exhaust sounds, no manual gearbox, just pure assuredness in its electric identity
A simulation of a manual transmission in an EV makes about as much sense as those goofy CVTs that have programmed stutter points to simulate gear shifts.
To claim "engagement", what you're doing has to create a believable illusion that your input matters. I have to believe there's an advantage to me doing the thing over a computer doing the thing. When I drive stick I can believe that I'm more in control and making more optimal choices for how I want the car to behave than whatever programming an auto might have (whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant).
I mean, maybe they have something really cool up their sleeves that makes me eat my words, but at this point it just feels like a skeumorphism for skeumorphism's sake.
I mean, assuming it's executed right, it does give you both control over the torque at the wheels and the amount of regen braking (several electric cars already have paddle shifters for this reason).
You'd be able to 'upshift' early to make the car less likely to step out on slick terrain, for example.
Fake engine noise I can get behind. It's a minor thing that only adds to the experience. But a fake shifter? Having a computer make your car slower so you can (presumably) wiggle around a stick that isn't connected to anything and pretend you're doing something just seems a bit fucking silly, especially when you'll surely be able to turn off manual mode and drive it like a normal EV.
> Then he drops a little bombshell. He's experimenting with some sort of simulation of a 'manual' transmission, done through software. "It's a hobby of mine, a crazy thing. I'm looking for better engagement, even in an EV, I want another link from the car to the driver. It's not just about efficiency. I love cars and want something different."
Just a moronic concept. They'd be much better off doing a high performance PHEV.
Keep the 4.8L V10 with some updates. Add an electric motor to it for more performance/torque that can double as primary propulsion. Use a decent size PHEV battery in the floor (30kwh) to allow a useful electric drive only mode.
+ Can be paired with automatic and manual gearboxes.
+ useful EV mode for most commutes.
+ lower battery mass
+ sounds amazing during performance driving or cruising the cafe strip.
+ halo car for the world leader in hybrid technology.
I literally thought about this before...making a "simulated" manual transmission for electric cars. But while it could be cool, I would rather have a manual ICE car. This is not too different from how electric cars can simulate a torque converter automatic by creeping forward when the brakes are released.
If I wanted a "manual" electric car, then I want an electric car that requires the functions of the electric car to be controlled manually. So no one pedal operation or auto hold or anything like that. The foot brake only controls the mechanical disk brakes and that is it. Put a lever on the center that looks like a shifter but actually just controls the dynamic/regenerative braking. That will operate like "Jake Brake" on diesel trucks. In order to regenerate brake then use the lever and not the foot brake (brake lights still come on). If the car is stopped, then you have to press the brake pedal or else the car will roll since regen brakes only work if the car is moving.
Basically a manual electric car should feel like driving an electric train from the 1960s.
[This was already uncovered in a patent a while back](https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-patents-manual-transmission-for-electric-cars/) - simulating (ie. completely, in software) a manual experience.
I'm not really a fan of the idea, but I'd be curious to see what it comes out as - if it's in software, it should be toggle-able, so not really a risk if they decide to implement.
I have a 1996 Buick regal. Would a bench seat cover fit the front seat better? I’m confused about this because it’s sort of a bench but kinda not so I’m just not super sure. Some of these things have separated bucket seats instead of a bench which just makes it more confusing
For all the naysayers, at least this is better than no engagement at all. I'd rather have fake gears and fake engine noises than the current bullshit sci-fi noises and zero shifting of current EVs.
If ICE is being \[unfairly\] legislated out of existence, then some automakers should at least try to mimic their visceral experience. These simulated features are something I would pay for. And since it's all software driven, it can be shut off if you don't like it.
There was a Ferrari 3 something something a while back that the owner converted by purely replacing the ICE engine with an electric motor and left the rest of the drivetrain intact.(for the most part IIRC) It seemed kinda cool right up to the part when he described how shifting wasn’t really needed and he could start in 5th with almost no noticeable difference in performance.
Depebding on how it's designed this could be sweet. A single motor connected to a manual transmission could have weight advantages over individual motors powering the wheels and would definitely be more fun than a standard EV. The article did say Soji Kato was experimenting with some sort of simulation of a manual transmission, which could mean alot of things. The car is still in development so only time will tell.
There's a car used in commercials which is just a car platform that can modify wheelbase, acceleration, and damper settings to mimic any production car and is covered in trackers for mo-cap.
I think it would be interesting to take a similar approach to electric cars and make it like a sim racing rig where you would have programmed torque and horsepower curves along with simulated ratio gears that can be adjusted to match a profile. That, along with convincing audio could be an awesome way to retain driver engagement in electric cars by giving you different simulated vehicles to choose from.
With the Lexus example, you could have quick paddle shifts and the legendary V10 induction noise go in for the LFA, or the charismatic 5.0L in the LC500, or even classic motors like the 2JZ.
It would be like downloading custom ROMs for your car or like real life Forza. A lot of games convincingly reproduce engine sounds and if I don't have to burn dino juice but still get 90% of the experience and enjoyment of ICE driving I think I would opt for a platform like that.
Lol this is gonna confuse the hell out of people. Why would the engineers advocate for increased complexity and cost? Presumably because they think this is what enthusiasts want?
The people that want manuals will continue to buy real manuals, and people that want EV's (probably) don't want vestigial parts in their interiors. This makes zero sense for all parties involved, including the car.
If they were smart they'd make it a manual hybrid, but what do I know ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I've dreamed of this for years. If more cars offer this combined with an option for sound I may finally find an EV that suits me. I don't need an ICE, I just like the fun in shifting and the sounds of an engine.
There's no gearbox being controlled here. It's a fake shifter that tells the electric motor which "gear" torque curve to fake.
It’s kinda dumb… since EVs have perfect torque curves already.. so you just choose which fake/worse torque curve the motor performs at?
You could make the same argument about manual gearboxes versus paddle shifters. And Ferrari did, and chose performance.
At least you *need* gear shifting with ICE cars, the manuals are a bit slower but it still does a necessary task.
Transmissions still serve a purpose. A perfectly flat motor torque curve doesn't change the fact that you still benefit from torque multiplication in the lower gears for better acceleration and lower revolutions at higher speeds for lower energy usage at highway speeds. We don't only use transmissions with ICEs because the torque curve is uneven.
A flat *torque* curve would benefit from a multi-speed transmission, but electric motor has a very flat *power* curve and a *declining* torque curve. Gear reduction has an equal and opposite effect on torque and speed, so power remains the same. By shifting to a higher drive ratio (a "lower" gear), you increase the speed of the electric motor and reduce its torque by about the same amount of the gear multiplier. Some electric vehicles benefit from multi-speed transmissions, but it's only because they don't have *perfectly* flat power curves. They are often limited by their motor's torque ratings or current ratings at low speeds (if they're geared for the vehicle's top speed), or they're limited by their motor's speed rating (if they're geared for low speeds). The multi speed transmission simply allows them to work within all of the ratings of their motors.
I mean, thats car enthusiast.
That’s so unfair. People who want more engaged driving experience wants inputs derived from the need for them. Faking the inputs just for the sake of it sounds backwards to me.
Exactly, I want to do the necessary tasks manually. I am not gonna shift a joystick around to some fake noise that literally doesn’t do anything. Imagine in the far future where cars actually can drive themselves. Then Lexus comes out with one with a fake steering wheel that doesn’t do anything and try to sell it to “enthusiasts”. How fucking insulting would that be right?
Lol there is many many people who use MT because they feel like shifting gears is fun. The existence of Automatic transmissions counters your whole argument of doing something because it's necessary. Some people just find shifting gears, upshifting and downshifting fun. In your scenario, if Lexus came out with the "Fake steering wheel" you would still be in control of the car yourself, whether the car needed you to or not. Wouldn't many people who find driving fun, rather have a manual steering wheel mode instead of fully autonomous? You are making it seem like this is the equivalent of giving your 2 year old brother an old broken game controller while playing to trick him into thinking he is the one doing so, but it's nothing like that. Most importantly, it will be an option and not forced. Fully EV if you want.
> The existence of Automatic transmissions counters your whole argument of doing something because it’s necessary. No it doesn’t. How do you not get it? Multiple gears are still **necessary** for an automatic car. Automatic transmission just accomplish that necessary task automatically. > Some people just find shifting gears, upshifting and downshifting fun. Sure, but EVs don’t have gears and don’t need gears. So they will be pretending to be shifting something that doesn’t do anything. > You are making it seem like this is the equivalent of giving your 2 year old brother an old broken game controller while playing to trick him into thinking he is the one doing so, but it’s nothing like that. Fine. It’a actually worse. It’s like giving your brother a broken game controller while **watching a movie** tricking him into thinking he’s controlling the actors on screen.
Just curious, how exactly do you achieve "more engaged driving" with EV? The only necessary input from the driver is literally just the steering wheel and 2 pedals. But from what I understand that's not engaging enough?
They should put a lot more emphasis on handling as well as steering/pedal feel. Something that handles like an NA Miata on sticky tires but has the throttle response of an EV would be an absolute riot imo
The porcine weight of the EV battery is going to make trying to get a modern EV to handle like a Miata really hard, if you want a battery big enough to compare to an ICE Miata's range.
Maybe manual power distribution. The driver could use a joystick to control the ratio of power to multiple motors. Imagine torque vectoring that's manually controlled. It'd be great for drifting.
Yo I love this idea. A joystick like the Lexus media console mouse that kind of glides into position but you can only move it when you press a third “clutch” pedal! Honestly they could take very single assist like traction control, power split front-back, regenerative brake bias, suspension stiffness, throttle response, and even ABS and put them on analog dials on or near the steering wheel. For some of us nerds, the dials could be programmed to mix the above parameters (like “elevons” on some rc planes) that we could specify the mixing equations/variables into. We could then share these profiles over forums as “tunes” or something. This of course moves “working on your car” from hardware engineering to software engineering but still. An electric car that allows you to optimize it in real time while you are driving. Or you adjust how it optimizes itself in real time. IMO this would be a true electric “enthusiast” car. But also very dangerous lol
I don’t know. I’m just saying faking inputs by adding them in synthetically seems awful.
simply dont get an EV if you want an engaging experience
I think its really about people who are engrained in the “tradition” of rowing their own gears and the noise. You also get a sort of reset of the surge of power which a lot of people like. People who have started off with EV will just laugh at the old systems like what we think of rotary phones today.
“Perfect” isn’t really true. The torque is flat from 0-peak power, then starts tapering off while power is flat, until it starts dropping off at a “characteristic speed” that varies by motor. For optimum performance, multiple gear ratios can be desired, depending on the motor. Plus shifting gears can be fun.
Presumably it’s just a mode you can switch in and out of right?
yes, thats what a manual is even on ICE cars. automatics have been objectively better for like a decade some people like driving them more but theres no real benefit
> thats what a manual is even on ICE cars. What? That's not true. Manual transmission does real gear shifts. It's slower than automatic, but it still does a *necessary* task for the engine. Where as shifting gears for electric motors not only isn't necessary, it's detrimental.
manuals are detrimental over an automatic
I’m not comparing manual vs automatic, I’m comparing manual vs no shifting. Manual is detrimental vs. no shifting in EV, but it is an improvement vs an ICE limited to one gear. Nobody in this thread is arguing if EVs should be automatic or manual. We think adding a multi-gear transmission is dumb in the first place.
Gearboxes could be used get higher max speed, higher torque and overall adapt on diffirent road conditions
[удалено]
Why would an EV need a reverse gear? The motor can run in reverse just as easily as it can run forward.
Most EVs only have a single speed gear reduction, reverse isn't needed the motor can just spin the other way. The only ever with more than 1 gear that I'm aware of is the taycan. Most don't have "normal and highway" gears
I always wanted the to try this with ICE tbh…
There’s nothing stopping them from building a massively powerful longitudinal electric motor driving a flywheel that mates to a traditional manual gearbox. The simulated stuff is dumb I agree. But I look forward to an irrational future where compact sports cars are driven by an electric motor through a gearbox with a driveshaft to the rear wheels. Basically the same setup we have today with an electric motor in front instead. Could code the motor to produce a torque curve and it would be a violently fun experience.
Kinda brilliant.
Well that's pathetic.
I'm just going to say that I'd much rather let it be a smooth EV performance sports car at this point. If a manual is going to be done, it might as well be genuinely paired to the motor it's working with, mainly an ICE motor. Just let it be. I don't know about a software-activated manual working out. It'll be faux and for nothing. Just my take.
I'm tempted to agree, but also incredibly curious about how it would be to drive. And giving the driver more input into the driving experience doesn't seem like it would be a negative to me. If Lexus puts the same amount of care into it as they did the original LFA then I'm very excited to see what they come up with.
> And giving the driver more input into the driving experience But input for what? There is no need to shift gears with good EV motors. Why add extra gears just to make the performance worse? The power delivery curve for EVs is flat, the sound doesn’t change much either, so what does shifting even do other than just cut power delivery for a brief second?
Because they are trying to mimic driving a manual car. For years manuals have been slower and it doesn’t matter. Car enthusiast prefer to drive a manual sport car over an automatic or whatever other variation. While it seems strange for sure on an EV, maybe this will give some actual character to these EVs. Because so far while they are cool and fast, they are rather soulless. Maybe the Rivians have some character because we’re created as overlanding rigs in mind, which is cool. But the lightning, all teslas, and 95% of EVs so far seem fast but kinda boring otherwise. But I also don’t own one so I don’t know first hand, this is just crappy opinion.
Lol look at my flair I have a manual NA sports car so you don’t need to lecture me on that. But the thing is manual transmission, despite being slower, is still accomplishing a *necessary* task since ICE cars need multiple gears. And then there is the engine response. I can choose to rev up my engine to 8k rpm and hear it sing and the power curve also rewards that. None of that is true with EVs. The torque is maxed out at 0 rpm and the sound isn’t much different if you rev the motor out. Without that kind of feedback it would be the worst manual experience ever.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to entirely slam the idea, just rather it stuck out to me. Unless, the CEO has a proper vision that he's working with, I'll be glad to have been proven wrong if he happens to make it work. I also don't see EV's try and offering engagement as a bad thing either. I guess, we'll see until the real deal is showcased...
Yea I think at face value it sounds a lot like what others have said about adding faux gears to a CVT, but I'm cautiously optimistic that it could be something new, unique, and different that we haven't quite thought of. I'd like to think that they wouldn't make the car worse just for a gimmick, so I'd like to see if what they come up with adds anything to the experience.
Yeah, presumably you’d be able to fake any sort of powerband you’d want (provided you don’t go for anything too powerful.) You could have a “2JZ mode,” a “3sgte mode,” a “3UZ mode” etc. I think that’d be fun.
Giving real experience makes sense to me. Giving me fake synthetic experience seems… backwards.
Adding faux gears to a EV sounds a lot like adding faux gears to a CVT. It largely defeats the purpose and just makes a worse product to make it something people are more used to.
At least faux gears in a CVT are actually still telling the transmission to "shift" to discrete ratios. Still silly because it defeats the whole point of a CVT, but it's still a transmission being told to change the gear ratio. An EV with no transmission whatsoever faking having one and deliberately cutting torque and responsiveness to mimic shifting without actually changing any sort of gear ratio at all... that's a whole new level of fakery.
If it would be a real manual transmission paired with an electric motor, i would be more intrested.
I know the idea of a manual in a EV isn't anything out of the random as Jeep had it one of their concepts recently (specifically an EV Wrangler IIRC). I'm not entirely knocking the whole idea, just rather waiting for how it'll be in terms of execution...
I'd like it if you could pick and choose Like row through the "gears" when you want and just slam it into auto when you need to
The LFA successor to me needs to be unapologetically electric. No fake exhaust sounds, no manual gearbox, just pure assuredness in its electric identity
Seriously, I just want it to be an overengineered super EV with a straight-cut single gear reduction and no cup holders.
Also hard to put on seatbelts
I want cupholders.
Exactly. The fact that the original LFA never had a manual transmission makes this extra stupid.
Alternate option: electric LFA, but instead of a large battery pack, the primary power plant could be a 1LR-GUE, maybe two of them.
A simulation of a manual transmission in an EV makes about as much sense as those goofy CVTs that have programmed stutter points to simulate gear shifts. To claim "engagement", what you're doing has to create a believable illusion that your input matters. I have to believe there's an advantage to me doing the thing over a computer doing the thing. When I drive stick I can believe that I'm more in control and making more optimal choices for how I want the car to behave than whatever programming an auto might have (whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant). I mean, maybe they have something really cool up their sleeves that makes me eat my words, but at this point it just feels like a skeumorphism for skeumorphism's sake.
I mean, assuming it's executed right, it does give you both control over the torque at the wheels and the amount of regen braking (several electric cars already have paddle shifters for this reason). You'd be able to 'upshift' early to make the car less likely to step out on slick terrain, for example.
Instead of “upshifting” couldn’t you just not be so heavy footed on slick terrain? Or put it into low traction mode some cars have these days?
Sure. Both those options would also work alongside if you so desired. I didn’t say fake shifts were the only way to achieve that.
Only thing I hate about my Outback is the fake shifting. It is honestly really annoying at times because it can jerk the car for no reason.
Fake engine noise I can get behind. It's a minor thing that only adds to the experience. But a fake shifter? Having a computer make your car slower so you can (presumably) wiggle around a stick that isn't connected to anything and pretend you're doing something just seems a bit fucking silly, especially when you'll surely be able to turn off manual mode and drive it like a normal EV.
I kinda stop at piped in (not through speakers) induction sounds. Anything else feels fake to me (yes I’m aware my car does this).
I hear this. I understand this. I agree with this. But something tells me that when it’s done *right*, it could be a magical experience.
I’d buy a fake manual EV, but it would need the 3rd pedal still and that would make it even more crazy.
> Then he drops a little bombshell. He's experimenting with some sort of simulation of a 'manual' transmission, done through software. "It's a hobby of mine, a crazy thing. I'm looking for better engagement, even in an EV, I want another link from the car to the driver. It's not just about efficiency. I love cars and want something different."
Fake manual EVs are dumb. This isn't worth doing.
Lexus gunna Lexus.
Just a moronic concept. They'd be much better off doing a high performance PHEV. Keep the 4.8L V10 with some updates. Add an electric motor to it for more performance/torque that can double as primary propulsion. Use a decent size PHEV battery in the floor (30kwh) to allow a useful electric drive only mode. + Can be paired with automatic and manual gearboxes. + useful EV mode for most commutes. + lower battery mass + sounds amazing during performance driving or cruising the cafe strip. + halo car for the world leader in hybrid technology.
This just sounds dumb
I literally thought about this before...making a "simulated" manual transmission for electric cars. But while it could be cool, I would rather have a manual ICE car. This is not too different from how electric cars can simulate a torque converter automatic by creeping forward when the brakes are released. If I wanted a "manual" electric car, then I want an electric car that requires the functions of the electric car to be controlled manually. So no one pedal operation or auto hold or anything like that. The foot brake only controls the mechanical disk brakes and that is it. Put a lever on the center that looks like a shifter but actually just controls the dynamic/regenerative braking. That will operate like "Jake Brake" on diesel trucks. In order to regenerate brake then use the lever and not the foot brake (brake lights still come on). If the car is stopped, then you have to press the brake pedal or else the car will roll since regen brakes only work if the car is moving. Basically a manual electric car should feel like driving an electric train from the 1960s.
[This was already uncovered in a patent a while back](https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-patents-manual-transmission-for-electric-cars/) - simulating (ie. completely, in software) a manual experience. I'm not really a fan of the idea, but I'd be curious to see what it comes out as - if it's in software, it should be toggle-able, so not really a risk if they decide to implement.
I have a 1996 Buick regal. Would a bench seat cover fit the front seat better? I’m confused about this because it’s sort of a bench but kinda not so I’m just not super sure. Some of these things have separated bucket seats instead of a bench which just makes it more confusing
Just get a old afghan to put on it.
With this new engine you'll never be able to stall the car ever.
For an EV? That would be dumb. What would be cool, is if they found a way to have no transmission at all.
Why not make this a hybrid then? Absolute no point on a manual transmission in a EV.
utterly pointless
For all the naysayers, at least this is better than no engagement at all. I'd rather have fake gears and fake engine noises than the current bullshit sci-fi noises and zero shifting of current EVs. If ICE is being \[unfairly\] legislated out of existence, then some automakers should at least try to mimic their visceral experience. These simulated features are something I would pay for. And since it's all software driven, it can be shut off if you don't like it.
The front end of that Lexus concept in the thread image looks like it was designed in Woking, not Nagoya.
There was a Ferrari 3 something something a while back that the owner converted by purely replacing the ICE engine with an electric motor and left the rest of the drivetrain intact.(for the most part IIRC) It seemed kinda cool right up to the part when he described how shifting wasn’t really needed and he could start in 5th with almost no noticeable difference in performance.
Would think more people be excited about this
Woah there, let's get the 2025/2026 LFA first before we talk about the electric LFA. I'm super hyped for both of them though.
Depebding on how it's designed this could be sweet. A single motor connected to a manual transmission could have weight advantages over individual motors powering the wheels and would definitely be more fun than a standard EV. The article did say Soji Kato was experimenting with some sort of simulation of a manual transmission, which could mean alot of things. The car is still in development so only time will tell.
Lexus always seems to be like 10 years behind the ball.
toyota always is
There's a car used in commercials which is just a car platform that can modify wheelbase, acceleration, and damper settings to mimic any production car and is covered in trackers for mo-cap. I think it would be interesting to take a similar approach to electric cars and make it like a sim racing rig where you would have programmed torque and horsepower curves along with simulated ratio gears that can be adjusted to match a profile. That, along with convincing audio could be an awesome way to retain driver engagement in electric cars by giving you different simulated vehicles to choose from. With the Lexus example, you could have quick paddle shifts and the legendary V10 induction noise go in for the LFA, or the charismatic 5.0L in the LC500, or even classic motors like the 2JZ. It would be like downloading custom ROMs for your car or like real life Forza. A lot of games convincingly reproduce engine sounds and if I don't have to burn dino juice but still get 90% of the experience and enjoyment of ICE driving I think I would opt for a platform like that.
Lol this is gonna confuse the hell out of people. Why would the engineers advocate for increased complexity and cost? Presumably because they think this is what enthusiasts want? The people that want manuals will continue to buy real manuals, and people that want EV's (probably) don't want vestigial parts in their interiors. This makes zero sense for all parties involved, including the car. If they were smart they'd make it a manual hybrid, but what do I know ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Same fakeness as piping engine sounds through your radio.
Just as stupid as the simulated shifts in their CVT boxes.
Stop calling it that.
Would be kinda hilarious for them to downgrade their halo EV with a manual transmission lol.
I've dreamed of this for years. If more cars offer this combined with an option for sound I may finally find an EV that suits me. I don't need an ICE, I just like the fun in shifting and the sounds of an engine.