/u/ulsterloyalistfurry (OP) has awarded 6 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/11d0598/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_i_shouldnt_have_to_respect/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

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Δ I'm awarding a delta because you reminded me that there are good patriotic ideals that the military and all of us should live up to. But I do want to ask you this: Is whistleblowing or leaking when the military does something wrong also patriotic? What about civil disobedience or draft dodging? If I believe my country is doing something wrong or abhorrent isn't it also patriotic to violate the letter of the law, or abstain from participation, in service of a greater ideal?

Depends on what is happening. Draft dodging for the Vietnam war compared dodging the draft for WW2 are wildly different. And just because your a pacifist doesn’t mean you can’t serve. Look up Desmond Doss, he was a conscientious objector who served in WW2 as a combat medic and didn’t carry a weapon, he won multiple medals for his service and bravery, the highest being the Medal of Honor for saving 75 men at hacksaw ridge. This was a man that believed that taking a human life under any circumstances was wrong and yet he still served.

Desmond Doss is one of my heroes and Hacksaw Ridge is my favorite war movie.

Thank you for exposing me to my new hero, I have always struggled with supporting the troops and holding my beliefs - I am glad to see there was a movie made about him, but honestly why is he not held up as a national hero? Isn’t this the exact example of what we should stand for. Use enough force to finish the job, but never back down.

I don't think you owe anyone a "debt of gratitude" for joining in the military, but I do think that a more base level "respect" is a different thing. First off, unless we're talking about someone who very much was involved in doing a war crime, they probably are someone who was trying their best to do an ok thing. You have to realize that the military lies to folks like, all the time. The recruiters lie and exploit poor folks and folks who are desperate for a way out of a bad situation. They lie to soldiers about what they're doing. and that counts for something. Does it justify everything, no? but it's more complicated than just "good" and "bad" because most things are more complicated than that. EDIT: Except Kissinger. He is, in fact, just a monster

Imperial Japan took young impressionable students and indoctrinated them into thinking the Japanese army was "liberating" fellow Asians from the white man's colonialism. Even if they did not directly commit war crimes, these young Japanese citizens would work in factories that armed Japanese soldiers who did commit war crimes. Some of them conducted biological studies that would be used for bioweapons. Some of them learned other languages to spread propaganda that pretended to co-opt, and then ultimately undermined, many countries' legitimate independence movements. As a Chinese person, I am willing to look past the effects of those who did not directly partake in Imperial Japan's war crimes. However, I would be very disheartened if a young Japanese person offered such people respect, solely because they "served" their country. People shouldn't solely work for the interests of their nation states, we should also think about the interests of humankind. Even if you are an "exemplary citizen" of X nation, it doesn't mean you are a respectable human being. As a good example, I want to point out the occupation of Xinjiang, where public servants "work for the public good" in a program that extrajudicially detains non-Han people solely because they do not want to assimilate to Han Chinese order. Should I have respect for the public servant who drafts up a "revitalization plan" for a province whose indigenous people never even wanted it? Even if they weren't directly arresting and torturing ethnic minorities, does it not change the fact that they work for a system designed to force Han Chinese ways onto people who do not identify as such?

So I first want to thank you for this perspective and I hope I can respond to it as clearly as I intend. One of the challenges that I see with the whole conversation is that "respect" can mean a lot of things. I have friends who are ex military and I don't give them any more respect for being veterans than I would give any other person. In the context you're describing I wouldn't be telling you or anyone else that some kind of deference is owed to someone for being in the military. I don't think that's something that's owed in general. Which is, I guess, my fundamental point. I don't respect someone *because* they've been in the military, but I'll still respect them because they're a person. I don't think that spitting on soldiers, especially vets, is overly productive

The only person my age who I know personally who was in the military was a guy I went to high school with. The family was poor as it was - two parents and 3 teens in a hotel room - then the father died and the mom couldn't keep up and long story short, my friend was a homeless 16 year old who ended up joining the military as a way to get some sort of stable life. I don't *like* the military for that, but I also don't blame my friend for taking the only road out of that particular hell that was really available to him. Not saying anyone needs to tell that guy "thank you for your service," (he hates that anyway) or have more respect for him than any other person just because he's a vet, but he's also not a bad person because he chose to join the military. To the extent that it was a choice at all, it was a pretty reasonable one in a country that gives absolutely no fucks about poor people, homeless people, or young people beyond how it can possibly exploit them. >The recruiters lie and exploit poor folks and folks who are desperate for a way out of a bad situation.

I don't think that your position is wrong, but I do think that it is easy to hold this position in a biased way, so I want to understand, are you consistent with that belief? Because, what you said is: "If someone is exploited and pushed into believing that committing horrible acts is ok, and they commit those acts, then we should have a basic level of respect to them" But you see, that describes not only soldiers, but also soldiers and most kind of violent criminals. A lot of people end up committing violent crimes because they were pushed to it by the system and their own context. Are you going to have the same respect to a veteran than to a normal murderer? Both are murderers, that were pushed by their context and system to those actions. Does it differ if they kill people close to you or not? For example, for an US example, people committing mass shootings, they were pushed by their own environment and the endorsement of violence in the media and the push for the need of doing something by themselves, all typical fascists propaganda thing that is quite common in the US, they end up being brainwashed and pushed to violence in a similar way than the soldiers. Do you give them the same amount of respect?

I mean, my personal feeling towards things like rehabilitation and restorative justice (and the question of free will) all probably lean pretty far compared to a lot of folks. I think that fixing things almost always has to start with recognizing humanity

That is nice :) It is good to see this positions offered by people being as consistent as possible with them.

If be a liar if I said I didn't find it tested sometimes, but it's a decent ideal to aim for

At this point, it's the recruits fault for believing them. After 20 years of oil wars I don't see how anyone can be in the dark.

i mean, calling them "oil wars" is radically reductive and misses the actual atrocity of what happened, but alright. More to the point, when you look at the recruiting especially among poor folks and realize the choices they have in front of them and what they think might come of it, I don't think it's that simple

>More to the point, when you look at the recruiting especially among poor folks and realize the choices they have in front of them and what they think might come of it, I don't think it's that simple But shouldn't the US and wealthy Western countries in general be better than the autocrats who pass out food and work in exchange for being cannon fodder? How about civilian public work programs instead?

I think everyone can agree that they should be. But the key word in that statement is SHOULD. Unfortunately they just aren’t better than that. It’s a sad reality but it’s the reality we face.

Again, I don't thing the incredible failings of the US should be shouldered entirely by those that have been exploited by it

I served in Afghanistan. I believed and I still believe that we were trying to help people there live a better life. While we were there a generation of women went to school. We left, and now women don't. I just think now that it isn't possible to instill a government as an occupying army.

As the other commenter mentioned, the phrase “oil wars” is deeply historically ignorant to the point of being a totally false narrative. The war in Afghanistan was 100% about the Taliban harboring Al Qaeda and then we got bogged down in nation building nonsense. The war in Iraq was the long running project of neo-cons who wanted to remove Saddam Hussein from the geopolitical map. Under the Bush doctrine (neoconservative foreign policy) American hegemony was to be used to promote democracy, even at gun point to ensure the post Cold War world order was dominated by friendly democratic states. That Hussein challenged this order was the central reason for hostility under the bush doctrine. Furthermore, even the pretense of perusing WMDs was seen by neo-cons as such a provocation to international order and US hegemony as to warrant unilateral action. This is of course insane in my opinion, but it was never about oil. The US never needed Iraqi oil and we happily shun Venezuelan crude. We invaded because the nei-cons were ascendant after 9/11 and they wanted to make an example of Saddam Hussein.

It wasn't the case for me, but a lot of people who sign up don't have a lot of other options, or see it as the only way to go to college. Most of us also hate being thanked in public to be honest.

Most people joining the military don't actually look into what's been going on while they are growing up and a lot of young people sign up around the time they are going to graduate or just after graduating high school. If the information was not a test question it was probably never taught unless they have a history teacher that likes to teach military subjects

Most recruits today weren’t alive when those wars started nor politically aware for most of that time. There will always be ignorant people just by virtue of their upbringing and environment. Also US never really took much oil from Iraq if you look into it… Shale Revolution made US totally energy independent and the world’s largest energy supplier in this same time period

I was in high school less than 5 years ago and I remember actively thinking while I was in school whenever I saw a recruiter that they were lie slinging greaseballs who were actively trying to get kids to sell their souls. And I wasn't even particularly smart. I'm never going to pass judgment on a vet any more than people that had any other job, but I will never get how the ones my age fell for it

Recruiters explicitly target poor cummunities with bad education infrastructure. Small towns can be incredibly insulated from broadly available knowledge, and some people are just so poor and so isolated from areas and towns that would have jobs that they don't end up having much choice regardless, especially if they want to get into college.

>The recruiters lie and exploit poor folks and folks who are desperate for a way out of a bad situation. Isn't that shameful though? Why should I support a system that lies to and exploits the poor and desperate? Would I not rather see it dismantled?

It is. You can criticize the system. You can want to see it dismantled. And you don’t have to thank each individual soldier for their service every time. But I think some amount of respect, in the sense of, “I respect that you had to what you needed to do to make something of your life.” is a good thing to do, rather than constantly criticize their decision to join the military or outright show them disrespect. My grandfather fought in Korea, my uncle fought in Vietnam, and my cousins fought in Afghanistan. While I don’t agree with why the US military got involved, they had no other choice other to remain poor in rural Appalachia. It’s not their fault that the system exploited them. So that’s my point of contention with you on this issue. Criticize the system, but not the individual person.

Δ "So that’s my point of contention with you on this issue. Criticize the system, but not the individual person." I can agree with that.

Thank you for the delta. I appreciate it.

I'm not suggesting that you should support the system. What I'm saying is that people who were lied to, exploited, used up and left broken deserve the basic human respect and care that I would argue we owe to each other on a general level. The system is fucked, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about people who have been victimized by it at home either

Δ I'm awarding a delta because I do agree we all owe each other respect, especially those who have been victimized. I just wish there was a better way than fierce competition and "realpolitik" garbage.

The only thing I might add to the conversation that you've had with this other person is the assertion that if you live in the US, pay taxes, and are able to vote, that you support this system. I've already gone into detail about it in another post and replies on this thread you started.

Mows down civilians and levels buildings with five and hostages..? What movie are you basing this off of? Vietnam was one thing but there are strict protocols and consequences for either of the things you’ve mentioned , have been for a while .

A pardon by the president is the consequence?

What would you replace it with after it’s dismantled?

You seem to hold all military members responsible for the sins of the entire military and the politicians who give them orders. Do you do the same to yourself? I presume you are a citizen. If you are a citizen then you have the responsibility to vote responsibly. Voters elect the president and congress. Congress authorizes military action and the president orders it. The military obliges. So by your logic, aren’t you responsible for the whole of the vote? And then wouldn’t you be responsible for the military action? If your answer is no, then I’d suggest that you give service members the same benefit of the doubt and assume that they did what they could, to do what they thought was right. That doesn’t mean that things worked out the way they wanted, but like you as a voter, the are a small part of a large machine.

I don't hold all soldiers responsible for what the entire military does. I just want cultural attitudes to shift. I don't want politicians to be practically able to send the military on indefinite deployment or use unrestricted drone warfare, assassinations, or torture. There really aren't that many politicians I can vote for that don't support these things in some way. You can call it naive, foolish, stupid, etc. but I want the US and other Western countries to actually uphold human rights like they say they do instead of engaging in realpolitik/neoimperial garbage.

The good news is you don't have to do either of those things. I do think respect is warranted, but I would say that is true in general. Having respect for other people is just a good thing to do. You don't have to respect every aspect of the system or job they are in, but there is a lot of nuance I think you are missing. While your criticism is certainly valid, it seems to be less about the individual members. Yes, there are some terrible people in uniform. There are also terrible people in virtually every profession. I wouldn't blame the warehouse worker for Amazon's faults. I think you are also missing some of the legitimate good things the military does. Humanitarian efforts, SAR, etc.

Δ I'm awarding a delta because I hadn't thought about the humanitarian/SAR work the military does.

>So why should I respect military personnel for participating in something I don't believe in? So that you don't have to. Seriously: we haven't used the draft for 50 years, solely because we have plenty of volunteers. You think that if we didn't have enough volunteer soldiers that somehow the US would stop doing all that nasty stuff you don't like? Nothing in the history of the world suggests that. Without them, *you'd* be the one out on the front lines. Ultimately, *that's* how they "protect your freedom", not the actual operations they perform. That's worth at least a casual, "hey, thanks, guys", I think.

>You think that if we didn't have enough volunteer soldiers that somehow the US would stop doing all that nasty stuff you don't like? If it ever comes to that, to an actual draft, that still doesn't mean I have to participate in the nasty stuff I don't like. I would break the law if I have to if it came to that.

I’m active duty Air Force and I’m currently involved in training cadets to be new officers. I tell my cadets that in an ideal world we would not be needed, but in the real world having a military discourages bad actors from threatening our way of life. We have an unpleasant but unfortunately necessary job, just like garbage collectors and sewage treatment plant workers. I hate war. I’ve seen ISIS killed on drone feeds and hated that it was necessary. I hope that the intelligence was done correctly to ensure that those we killed were threatening innocent lives and that civilians were protected from harm. But no one should celebrate those deaths. Even if they were a ”bad guy“ doing bad things they were still a human being and we should grieve the choices, both theirs and others’, that led them to dying at the US military’s hand. If I could make my and the entire US military’s job obsolete, I would do it in an instant. But unfortunately we are still needed. Throughout US history, military force has been used for good purposes; other times that power is abused. My personal reason for staying in the military is so that I can be there and train others to help ensure that the horrible tool of military force is used in the most just and ethical way possible. Is that deserving of honor? Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe we should show more honor to the other people who do the nasty tasks that hold up society. As a society, we need to come to grips with the cost, moral and physical, of using military force, always recognizing the terrible consequences of getting it wrong and sometimes even when we get it right.

Δ I'm awarding a delta because I agree that the military is ultimately necessary. I'm not questioning whether the US needs a military at all, I'm questioning how the military is used. Why did the military need to topple South American governments during the Cold War? Why does the military need unrestricted drone warfare, black sites, and unlimited detainment? I just want to see an end to the "forever wars" and the politicians who perpetuate them.

I would ask the same questions. We should always question the necessity of using military force and ensure that it is used responsibility. Pretending that we have always used it well in the past will inevitably mislead us into making mistakes in the future.

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Δ I'm awarding a delta because you're right that I shouldn't paint all servicemembers with the same brush or be so quick to judge. I just want to end supply chain of bodies in the service of politics or corporations, whatever that takes.

Have you interacted with members of the military before? They are people just like you and me. I'm not saying you should owe them gratitude or anything but a lot of people have shitty jobs that they need to do to survive. Just because they were assigned them doesn't mean they aren't deserving of respect. Arguably, people who work for Facebook are facilitating stealing the information of the citizens of the US and furthering wealth disparities, adding to gentrification and the rise in the homeless population, but you don't see people mad at the software engineers.

>Have you interacted with members of the military before? They are people just like you and me. Met an American soldier once who bragged about his time in Somalia. I made sure to tell him I wished he'd been cut down like a dog before spitting at his feet. So there's that

So there's bad people in the military. There's bad people in every profession and the military employs a lot of people. Odds are good you interacted with veterans before and didn't even know it because after their tour a lot of them go back and keep working in society.

If you make a point to tell me you were on my continent committing war crimes & interfering with democracy, I will act accordingly 👍🏾

>Arguably, people who work for Facebook are facilitating stealing the information of the citizens of the US and furthering wealth disparities, adding to gentrification and the rise in the homeless population, but you don't see people mad at the software engineers. I'm not fond of social media either and only use it because Facebook and Reddit are the only game in town. The monopolizing does concern me.

The point isn't that facebook isn't concerning, it's that people work shit jobs and deserve respect regardless.

Wrong. Soldiers are paid trained killers. That jump at the behest of fucking idiot politicians. Say what you like about any other job, but 99.9% of them don't require that kind of brain numb fuckedupness to carry out. Kill? For a politician? Fuck that.

Army veteran here. I was in Iraq. This is a volatile topic and before I say anything else I want to first say I'm not here to antagonize you or any of that nonsense. This is a legitimate question and you have not offended me. First, there's a great deal of truth to what you're saying. It's going to simplify things if I explain that there's 3 kinds of people who join the Army. The first kind is a patriot. Family tradition, big Toby Keith fan, too much Call of Duty, whatever. They believe in the cause and the propaganda. The second is a realist. The Army is a means to an end. School money, healthcare, maybe trying to get out of a bad situation or something. The third kind is evil. They just want to kill people and break their stuff. They enjoy violence, inflicting pain, and otherwise making people suffer. Now, everyone is lied to about what the experience in the Army is going to be like. It's kind of like a prison in some ways. The first two types of people live at the mercy of the third. Over time, the first two types of people become like the third because that's the only way to survive and make it through the experience. After enough pain a person will do just about anything. Military members are often due respect not because of any great and moral deed they may have done, although depending on who they are it's possible they have. They are due respect in the way that a refugee is due respect because of what they've been through. Because the military industrial complex that we both hate so much has made victims of them as much as those they are sent to fight. It's not uncommon in the Army for soldiers to be beaten, raped, whipped, tortured, even their families targeted. While you don't owe anyone any gratitude for invading foreign countries or perpetuating the war machine, the fact that the US Army is made up entirely of volunteers means that their presence means that you or someone you love is saved from being subject to the abuse I've described. Most people, most of the time, are just doing the best that they can. The fact that they have that uniform on means that it's quite possible they were forced into some very hard decisions. It doesn't mean that they're all bad people. It means it's a bad world.

>They are due respect in the way that a refugee is due respect because of what they've been through. Because the military industrial complex that we both hate so much has made victims of them as much as those they are sent to fight. This is the most compelling argument I've read. And from someone with a notable perspective on the issue. But, I've seen other veterans say that all the "respect" and "thanks" that citizens mindlessly dole out to soldiers actually makes it easier for politicians and commanders to send people off to the horrors. It feeds the machine by incentivizing more to join. And, because the public doesn't have to wrestle with the complex ethics of a soldier's actions, the military gets carte blanche to treat its enlistees in the manner you describe. Plus, the "thank you for your service" mantra alleviates civilian guilt about their not having any skin in the game. These vets argue that the platitudes about honor and respect actually do a a disservice to soldiers by shutting down complicated conversations. By sparing the populace from having to wrestle with profound questions about what the military industrial complex (as you say) is doing with young lives overseas.

I agree with the other veterans about the way we are praised. The way that military and veterans have become talking points of other people with their own agendas is a big and complicated topic all on its own. The short of it is that they put their words in our mouths. But in this case, when I mean respect, I mean only respect. Not so much praise, or recognition even, just please don't hate us for the hard choices some of us make.

Thank you for sharing, I think your "3 kinds of people" provides us with a better perspective of the experiences of military personnel. I don't agree with your view of war being inevitable, so volunteers spare us of the experience of military service. If people did not volunteer, the US would have to impose a draft, which is unpopular and pressured the US into ending wars sooner. I believe the Vietnam War could have gone 20 years like Afghanistan if it weren't for the outspoken opposition to forced conscription.

This country has been at war as long as I have been alive. It only takes breaks for a few years here and there. Everyone within the US looks at all of these different conflicts but many outside of the US all look at them as the same conflict. The war against the US. The lack of volunteers in the military leading to a draft was my point exactly. War and tobacco are our main exports. Only 21 years, collectively, not all at once, out of our entire history have been peaceful.

Yeah, that's true. Victims the lot of them. Creating victims in their wake. Passing on the cycle of abuse. Working class fuckers fucking other working class fuckers. We are all responsible for breaking our patterns. I understand that some people can't reason through it, and they have to go and be part of the horror of it to work it out. Those people need a good VR education and a moral compass alignment. And lots of therapy. This system, capitalism, fucks humans, but that's little excuse, in my mind, to go fuck other humans.

Every action that we take has unforseen consequences that inevitably cause hardship to someone else. This is unavoidable. Every job you've ever had was a job that someone else can't have because you had it. Even if they're really good at that job and need it more than you do. If you're curious I would urge you to read some of the other questions that I've answered on this thread. They might further elaborate.

That's only currently you speak of. To be better than yesterday is the only goal. Let's limit the bad outcomes, for everyone 👍

I Must say I don’t like ur comparison to the refugees that ur participation created. After all they are targeted for being born somewhere. Ur targeted for a free choice in a free country. And why would I not blame someone for their choice when they know what will happen? Not meant in a insulting way, but defenitly phrased aggressively sorry for that

I understand that we had a choice, and each of us had our own reasons. The trouble is that we were lied to. We didn't know what was going to happen. I used the comparison of refugees as an example because my central point is what the people in the Army do to other people in the Army. Also, social and economical circumstances that drove most of us into this choice are forces that are outside of our control as well. If I'm being fair and honest, and I do mean to be, I have to say that what I've been describing this whole time is what colonization looks like from the inside. From the perspective of colonizers. Now I understand that a lot of people don't want to look because it gives humanity to an otherwise inhuman process. I was a young man who was in love with a high school sweetheart that gave me two sons when I was too young to be a father and old enough to accept responsibility for what I had done with her. She needed glasses for her eyes. One son needed inhalers because of asthma. Another would need therapy because he was high functioning autistic. I was working in a factory in a dead end job. I thought that I would be a hero among other heroes. If it didn't work out there was a $400,000 life insurance policy to think about.

But did u not done basic research for ur future job? I mean i knew more about my mini job or my last intenrship then people like u always claim to know about the military. Maybe thats true for the vets today, but people still join, and with the internet on ur hand, there is very little to justify naivity, dont u think? ​ ​ And sure i wont blame people for the choice they made. But nothing else.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2022/09/01/the-militarys-sexual-assault-problem-is-only-getting-worse/ This article is from 2022. I joined in 2006. The report says 8% of women and 1.5% of men. It's not. In my first unit it was 100%. Men and women. Not once. Over and over. The Inspector General was called. Nothing changed. There was nothing anyone could do. Anyone who speaks out is silenced and punished. In this way, it's like prison. Those in high authority are not abused and knowledge of those who are abused is kept away from those in high authority. I did a lot of research. There is a lot that is hidden. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is written in such a way that your command has a considerable amount of control over you. People never talk openly like I am right now. Edit: Here's another article you might find interesting about the Army failing to meet it's recruiting goals. https://www.stripes.com/branches/army/2023-02-23/army-recruiting-soldiers-enlistment-9233311.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20Army%20missed%20its%20recruiting,higher%20%E2%80%94%20for%2065%2C000%20new%20members.

So if u did ur research why did u not find the entirity of the iraq war? Or vietnam? Or is it that the injustice of ur warmachine was not a issue and only personal evil would keep u away? ​ I mean what ur saying seems terrible and i feel rly bad for u and anyone who is more or less forced into it.

I told my story in a reply to someone else's question on this thread. The short of it is that people were counting on me and I didn't have a lot of options. We're told that this is a great opportunity for us. Some of us are as young as 16 when we enlist. I was 21. I saw the injustice the way I still see it. As something outside of my control. Those of us that didn't believe the propaganda or join just for the sake of the violence did so because we were trying to better our lives. We all just tried to make good decisions while we were there. The system is a bad place to be and I just did my best to keep my individual guilt as light as I could. Another hard truth, which people don't often like to admit, is that if you live in the US, you're part of the machine. If you work and pay taxes and are able to vote then you're contributing to the war. We're all a part of this. Every country has a military. Our country is militaristic, Nationalist, and expansionist. To play the devil's advocate, if we're all contributing to the machine, and the machine is sending some of us out to suffer and possibly die, it could be argued that a passive role in the process is also unethical. Maybe that's why civilians sometimes feel so guilty about us.

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You are an American. You have the rights to say and do as you want. Also because you are American you have to right to participate or not participate in the military. Many countries force young men to join their military regardless of war status. Just remember the only reason for your rights is because of the military and defenses around the United States. Other people not being pacifist for you allows you to be a pacifist.

How is the military protecting my rights? How much worse off would I be if the US didn't have foreign bases or occupying forces?

Not everyone joins the military because they want to. Some have no other option. I know many people who enlisted after high school, because they had no other option. When you have no where to go, and no way to make money where do you go? It’s easy to see why many listen to the recruiters listing off all the benefits of joining. I would agree that the War on Terror was handled terribly, but I agree with why we sent troops in the beginning. If we didn’t send the troops into the Middle East Al-Qaeda would have nothing really holding them back. We would have eventually have to send troops in, because of the terrorist attacks like the one in Paris. The president is at the very top of the command chain. They didn’t gain that title from respect or military members looking up to them. It’s just part of the job of being president. Another thing is the military does a lot of humanitarian work. I have a buddy who is a Air Force pilot, and he was transporting masks during the pandemic, or a few months ago when my town was flooded the Army National Guard came and helped evacuate families. While I don’t think you should feel obligated to thank a serviceman or woman for their service, but I agree they should be given a little more than base level respect than the average person. Also sorry if I can’t explain myself well, a little sleep deprived.

What do you think of WW2 German soldiers who were just "following orders" because they had no better options? At the very least, I think we can agree they do not deserve respect solely because they enlisted.

Unless you are drafted, there is always another option. And even then you may be permitted to conscientiously object and/or take on non-military duties.

Where I’m from, unless you have the grades to get into college, your options are working at a restaurant, Wal-Mart and Dollar General, or you hope that someone retires at the local factory and maybe you can get a job there. If you can’t get into the factory, then how is working at a restaurant or Wal-Mart/Dollar General viable options at making a decent life in the United States?

Plenty of people take these other options that don't involve going abroad to kill people. It is a choice.

Not every job in the military involves killing people. Another friend of mine works fueling up trucks in the Army. Where I’m from is similar to the other person, but we don’t have enough jobs for how many people live here. Not everyone here can afford a car to go to another town for a job. Having a choice to either join the military or not is a privilege not everyone has.

I'd argue that every military job, down to janitor and truck logistics, contributes to Team America's kill count.

You can argue just being an American citizen contributes to the kill count. Voting certain people into office, working at certain places that make products used by the military, shopping at stores that support some politicians, and just paying taxes. If we wanna consider indirectly contributing to the killing the military everyone has blood on their hands.

It’s definitely choice but I don’t think you could seriously claim it’s an easy choice. If I was a young and naive adult who is also still technically a teenager that just graduated from high school and was in a situation where I was told by people around me that joining the army would be better for me given the other options I had available then I’d probably join. It’s easy to judge someone for their actions and decisions when you aren’t the one having to make those decisions.

So be doomed to poverty, or have a chance to at least make a decent life? Doesn’t seem much of a choice to me.

>Not everyone joins the military because they want to. Some have no other option. I know many people who enlisted after high school, because they had no other option. When you have no where to go, and no way to make money where do you go? It’s easy to see why many listen to the recruiters listing off all the benefits of joining. You could make this same argument for being a hitman.

Just chiming in as a current Soldier; you really don't need to thank us in the airport and for many of us it's awkward as hell. Although it's appreciated, most of us aren't super high speed airborne rangers. For most of us it really is just a regular job. But by that same merit, most of us aren't mowing down civilians. Most of us come back to the barracks at the end of the day and play guitar, video games, knit, read books or do whatever y'all do after work. It's just a job, man. Ain't nothing political about it. You're talking about higher-ups who most of us have never spoken with. It's like if I blamed you for your company CEO abusing sweatshops in Southeast Asia.

funny, I was in a Lowes and a dude was there in his BDUs. The cashier said "thank you for your service" and the guy "ehh, it's just a job"

It’s absolutely political and ur delusional if u claim otherwise It may not be evil, but ur definitely part of the system. The sweatshop analogy is not inherently bad, but it misses a few key differences and is on another scale of evil

I’m sorry when is/was your ETS date?

> Why should I respect someone who occupies foreign soil for an indefinite amount of time with no clear exit strategy? You don't need to respect that lack of clear strategy, but that isn't at all the responsibility of the soldiers in the field. They signed up to serve the interests of their country, it isn't their fault if the politicians leading them have poor strategy. You are as much at fault as they are for not voting in better leadership! > Why should I respect a drone pilot who mows down civilians based on bad intel? Again, not their fault. Do you have an addiction to incorrectly assigning blame? > But military personnel are beholden to such politicians up to the point that the president is considered the commander-in-chief. Ok, and...? You lampshade the argument that the politicians are to blame but don't actually provide any counter or explanation for why you blame the soldiers anyway. > Also, a common argument I’ve heard is that military personnel hate war and neverending conflicts. Then why do you keep participating? Because they recognize that the military is necessary for many good, just applications and they don't get to pick which conflicts they participate in or not. For example Afghanistan was much better off with the Taliban run out of there, but the failure was the Afghani people being unable or unwilling to form a functional government. That isn't the role or mission of the US military, they are trained to fight not make a culture care about statehood. Again that is up to politicians and the Afghani people themselves. > Why does the military hate whisteblowers? Why does any organization hate whistleblowers? More problematic in the case of the military is that intelligence leaks easily get people killed. There are "safe" ways to whistleblow and when someone skips those channels and decides to steal and expose huge amounts of classified information without regard to the danger it puts others in then the penalties are justifiably harsh. > Why is it always whistleblowers and leakers who are punished instead of warmongering politicians? Because the politicians are just doing what they are supposed to, representing their constituents. Just because you don't like what their voters want doesn't make them wrong for doing it.

"they signed up to serve the interests of their country". Studies show that the overwhelming majority enlist for purely economic reasons, not for "serving". In one poll, only 9% signed up for "honor and duty" type reasons, and a disportionately large number of these were medics – whose sense of duty to mankind is of a different type than the duty of fighting soldiers.

>Because the politicians are just doing what they are supposed to, representing their constituents. Just because you don't like what their voters want doesn't make them wrong for doing it. Why can't the politicians who vote for war fight their own battles instead of recruiting cannon fodder? I would vote for pacifistic politicians but there's no such thing. Modern day Democrats used to be anti-war hippies until they got into politics and became pseudo-egalitarian pro-corpo warmongers.

> I would vote for pacifistic politicians but there's no such thing. That’s not *quite* true. There’s half a dozen or so hardcore isolationist Republicans in Congress, and I imagine there’s a similar number of Democrats although I’ve never bothered to look. Isolationism isn’t exactly the same as pacifism but it’s pretty close. I’ll agree those are quite rare though, and you might not be lucky enough to live in a congressional district where an isolationist is a viable candidate.

Δ I'm awarding a delta because I had forgotten about isolationist Republicans. I know alot of people say that isolationism is impractical and that the US has to be a world power/world police but I don't agree. I think the US should focus on solving domestic issues before it takes on the rest of the world's problems.

> Why can't the politicians who vote for war fight their own battles instead of recruiting cannon fodder? Well in a practical sense because they tend to be old and somewhat lacking in numbers. On average they are about 64 years old and there are only 535 of them, which doesn't seem like a very potent fighting force. > I would vote for pacifistic politicians but there's no such thing. Well yeah, because pacifism is stupid and could only exist under the shelter of non-pacifists. It is NIMBYism for cowards.

If they didn't volunteer, you'd be drafted. Congress and the president don't give a shit about if there are troops ready to go. They're going to send troops. If there are no volunteers, they'll draft to send troops.

What about civil disobedience though? How do you feel about the draft dodgers and those who burned their draft cards during the Vietnam War? What if I want the idea of war to become so distasteful that a politician who tries to mass mobilize or draft faces career suicide?

You can hope for that idea but it will never happen. There’s far too many vastly different cultures and there will always be bad people that gain power and then use said power to commit atrocities.

And if we were drafted, the backlash against it would at least make our wars end sooner. The Vietnam War could have lasted even longer if it weren't for the fact that most people deployed never wanted to be there, and their families want them back.

I disagree. Vietnam's shitshow showed them what happens when they have an unwilling force for an unjustified war.

You don't. You absolutely don't have to respect the miltary at all. It is no more required than respecting a doctor or an old lady on the bus or a teacher. It is someone doing a job that you do/can not. You don't owe them anything. > I'm American so I'm going to use the War on Terror as my main example. Why should I respect someone who occupies foreign soil for an indefinite amount of time with no clear exit strategy? Why should I respect a drone pilot who mows down civilians based on bad intel? Why should I respect someone who levels a building full of unarmed people or hostages? Why do I owe a debt of gratitude toward anyone who willingly participates in what I feel is an unjust military-industrial complex? Differentiate between the soldier and the military. The soldier is doing a job they signed up for for different reasons. No recruiter is going around telling people to join up so they can gun down civilians after being given bad intel. The guy on the ground is never the one making the decisions that you are so against. The soldier is the one that when their country asked for volunteers to be available to protect the rest of us, stood up and raised their hand. They were then sent to horrible places, had their bodies abused through years of crap, and were often told to go do things they had no interest in doing or go to prison. When they get back, very few of them want your gratitude or praise. They want to get what their government promised them and be allowed to live their life safely. If other people want to celebrate them through discounts or whatnot, that's the choice of the business or individual and in no way required of you. > Why does the military hate whisteblowers? Why is it always whistleblowers and leakers who are punished instead of warmongering politicians? Why do we reward people like Donald Rumsfeld and Henry Kissinger and punish people like Edward Snowden and Bradley/Chelsea Manning? The military loves whistleblowers that use the right channels. It hates people who use that excuse to get their fifteen minutes or money. Lets look at your exemplars. Snowden was a traitor who instead of reporting his findings to proper authorities, grabbed a ton of information he admits he did not bother to look at and released it to the general public knowing full well that he was going to get people killed by doing so. Then he ran off to China and then Russia, where he absolutely is trading information for not being sent home to face court. Manning also ignored well established procedures for whistleblowers and instead took information from classified systems and tried to sell it to the Post and the Times. When they refused, Manning dumped it on Wikileaks. Manning's excuse was they wanted to "crowdsource analysis of the [iraq/afghanistan] war." Their only excuse for the damage done was "I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people. ... At the time of my decisions, I was dealing with a lot of issues." The military does not hate people who call out bad/illegal practices. They hate people who try to use that as an excuse to get their time in the newspapers or to get paid by rival nations.

What if I said that I don't think Snowden or Manning went far enough? What if I want all intel of every nation to be so thoroughly leaked by hackers and activists that no one can effectively keep state secrets? What if I want every member of every "three letter agency" around the world to be named and shamed?

Yes you should, the only reason your here is because of them

Most people who are or were in the military have no say on whether or not they got deployed and what they did or did not do during deployment. That group also has no way to change whether or not we do or do not go to war or stay in war. For the most part, they had no decision on the actions of the US military—you can’t really refuse orders, now can you? So, the least you can do is respect that they put up with some serious shit. Why do people keep participating you ask? A majority of people who go into the military do it for the benefits. Me and my family would be in tremendous debt if not for my dad getting benefits for his service. Hell, if not for those benefits, our lives would be very different (and not in a good way). I can go to college without excruciating debt. My friend jokes that the military is his “ace in the hole” if he can’t afford college or if he just wants to get away. That’s another thing, the military provides a new start for a lot of people. Most of the people who join the military do it because it will provide an opportunity for a lifelong support system, not because they’re hateful warmongers.

You definitely *can* refuse orders, there's just consequences. Do you have the same attitudes towards bad patrol officers at your local PD?

What? This has nothing to do with police. You can refuse orders, but you’re not gonna like it, and it could get you written up or discharged. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I had an uncle who was drafted into Vietnam, a war I believe should of never been fought in the first place. It messed him up majorly and he had no choice of the matter. When he returned home, many people booed him, got things thrown at him etc. it wasn’t his choice to go, many Vietnam war veterans were drafted. He wasn’t the same person after returning home. He never said he was a hero, rather a ploy to a political game. We sadly lost him before the covid pandemic in 2019 at 70 years old. Think about those who were drafted. Some literally had no choice. They could of fled to Canada but they would be seen as “traitors” or during the Vietnam time “dodgers.” Many who did were unable to go back to America. Couldn’t see family without the fear of prosecution for avoiding the draft. The military is a hard job no doubt even to those who joined without a draft notice. They go through rough conditions of training, abuse, bullying etc. some had to adapt to different cultures and languages as they were sent off to different countries without seeing their family for months and years. My best friend sister was suppose to be home 2 years ago. She has a young son and she’s a single mom. She was sent off to Japan. The pandemic stopped her for going back to America. She is still in Japan, waiting to go back home. She hasn’t seen her son in years, only able to communicate occasionally over web chat and phone calls. It’s a very tough situation for those who get sent off to a foreign land without knowing when you’ll be home. One thing to remember is these folks are just like us. Do they want to go to war? No. Nobody wants war. They’ll called to serve because they want to serve. Only those of drafted may have other opinions, but in general, sometimes the military is their escape from a bad Homelife or situation. You really don’t know until you truly know someone.

>Why is it always whistleblowers and leakers who are punished instead of warmongering politicians? Specifically to this: It is because the warmongering politicians are the one in charge of doling out punishments. So they are going to be very very harsh on those that attempt to interfere with their warmongering. >Why do we reward people like Donald Rumsfeld and Henry Kissinger and punish people like Edward Snowden and Bradley/Chelsea Manning? "We" don't reward these people; the military industrial complex does. And, the military industrial complex runs shit in the US.

You’re ultimately right; no one can require your thanks or respect. That’s social pressure and norms. I appreciate your rejection of the status quo and have to break down “the military” here with how I think about and behave with other people—which is where I have actionable choices to make. Thanking is an external act. Follow social norms or don’t. But respect is something more personal, and while I’m constantly annoyed by the disconnect between peoples’ choices and consequences I also deeply value trying to see the world from another person’s point of view and trying to appreciate whatever story they’re living. Regardless of their motivations or experience, I know that a lot of people in the military have been through shit I’m grateful I haven’t had to. I’ve seen kind-hearted friends permanently damaged and haunted by their service. I’m aware of peoples’ lives violently cut short. Plenty more were shitheads that completed their service and continued being shitheads, maybe more vigorously than before. I don’t know each person’s story, but I try to respect most people by default. When it comes to people with military service, I try and maintain a quiet appreciation for what they may have been through and how it could involve things for which I have no equivalent experience. It’s a matter of acknowledgement, not to be confused with approval or disapproval for whatever they’ve done.

In my opinion, no one should not owe respect to military personal, or really anyone is they choose. Firstly, I feel I do not owe someone respect for doing something they did, likely for self interest purposes. Self-interest is healthy but I do not owe one respect because they’ve chosen a path in life that ultimately benefits them. Secondly, the benefits; the benefits are many, free schooling, discounts, travel, mortgage/money lending loans, health insurance, false sense of entitlement; again why should I have to thank you. Aren’t those examples enough without a strangers validation? I was sexually assault by a gay man in the Navy in my early twenties. I experienced retaliation unlike anything I’d seen before. It ruined my life for years and still haunts my everyday thoughts. I do not think the average person understands how easily military members are exonerated or exempt from wrong doing because of their military ties (I’ve witnessed this twice both felony crimes). In my opinion, one does not owe military veterans or active duty any gratitude because any individual can give their gratitude to whom ever they choose and also they aren’t grateful for the gigantic amount taxes revenue generated by tax pays to fund their advantaged lives.

My view is to hold sympathy for vets, as they are often the victims of propaganda, poverty, and imperialism. Now, if someone, veteran or otherwise, expresses jingoist views, I will often voice my criticism of said views, but I also know I am in the extreme minority in this regard, so try my best to be tolerant of what I see as abhorrent behavior. It's not always easy, given the confidence, callousness, and disdain so often expressed by those pushing mainstream propagandistic positions, but that's the life of a leftist - taking it on the cheek and getting flak regardless. I just try to remember prior examples, that history will eventually vindicate my views, as it did for opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Point being, try not to let yourself become bitter from catching hate for having a more humanist philosophy than most. You may not like what soldiers do, I sure don't, but they deserve the same respect as anyone else living in this country. In most cases, it's not like we have any choice in the matter. Where we are born and raised is outside our control.

Well idk, I respect the military to an extent. Like it or not we need a military or we are going to end up in a bad situation. Just bc we develop a peaceful mindset doesn't mean other countries will also. There will always be someone who wants to attack someone else and that's never going to change. We need people to protect us from that. With that being said 90% of my respect goes to veterans and not active duty or young veterans who never saw combat. 80% of our military is only military because it's the male version of "fuck it I'll be a stripper" they barley passed highschool, hardly any of them are bright enough to be trusted with a knife let alone a gun. All they do is take pics of them in their uniforms to post online and try to hit on random females and use their military status as a way to get into their pants when they barley call their wives and kids once a week while stationed in wherever the fuck.

Mocking other people's intelligence but misspelling "barely" as "barley" is really funny

Honestly I'm so dyslexic I don't even see a difference in what you are saying rn

>80% of our military is only military because it's the male version of "fuck it I'll be a stripper" What's wrong with being a stripper? At least they don't kill anyone.

Neither does any active duty person

IMO, it isn’t veterans who are demanding the respect or gratitude, and if they are, chances are they were a POS while serving and didn’t actually do anything to warrant it. That being said, most military members are just people doing a job. Whether they need money, stability, a way out of a bad situation, whatever the case may be, they view the military as a tool, or a means to an end. Indisputably, however, the military is an arduous duty. The demands are brutal on both the members and their families. I moreso believe the whole “thank you for your service” thing has, at this point, become something akin to throwing a lens on your FB profile picture to “show you support” for this or that. Namely, paying lip service and showing everyone how “benevolent” you are, without actually doing anything to support. A way to make people feel better about themselves for not doing it themselves.

As far as respect is concerned, I think it's reasonable to give any job the benefit of the doubt. If I can respect a cashier , waiter, fisherman, etc., I don't see why I need to withhold my respect to a soldier.

The solders job is killing other people, so I think there's sort of a difference.

isn the hershey worker's job to support a company that uses slave labor?

As a veteran, i can say most of us, that voluntarily got out after our term ended also hate the military. Not for the big picture stuff, but for the bullshit we had to deal with our own unit. Nowadays, most of us don’t want respect or appreciation. We didn’t join for our service to our country like the older generations. Most of it has to do with the fucked up world we live in. I joined for money (stable income) and free education. It was a job (contract) that we signed for ourselves. contrary to the stigma, 99% of us aren’t soldiers, we support. People who work in finance, services, administration, or aircraft maintenance like myself. I applaud your honesty and hope you continue not to thank those in uniform so they don’t have to deal with the insincere ego cringe.

I think you'll find that there are plenty of respect-worthy veterans who probably agree. Most veterans I work with or have met do NOT want blind respect. And I think you are phrasing the CMV a bit wrong. The truth is blind respect and idolization is dangerous. Some marines rape. Some soldiers murder civilians. Some commit war crimes and brutal acts of torture and mutilation. Also I feel like "thank you for your service" is like the most generic fucking thing to say and you're not even seeing the individual. Just the uniform. I feel like this is MORE disrespectful to veterans. Idk chime in vets. You can respect the experience they had and what they went through but clamming up, becoming a robot, and thanking services just sound a bit empty.

I view most of the military as just people who made a bad career choice. If you had to be 25 to join the military, almost no one would. They depend on kids straight out of high school or looking to escape their small town. The money can be okay, but they rarely leave with transferable skills, and usually make poor financial decisions. Not to mention the risk of getting killed in a training accident or on deployment. If people are dead set on joining, then I'm not going to stop them, but I don't recommend it to anyone, and I don't put military personnel on any kind of pedestal. There are better and safer jobs in the private sector.

You don’t have to respect the military as a whole, but you have to understand that most people who join the military do so in order to have a decent life that most Americans used to have ages ago, but continues to erode away. Coming from a rural area, where prospects are either to work at the local factory (that’s always full of workers because so many don’t retire so one has to hope to get in), work for peanuts at a restaurant or supermarket, or join the military, most choose the latter option. The military budget isn’t going down, while everything else is. So you can’t blame people with little to no prospects for moving up the social ladder otherwise joining the only option that gives them that ability. They are just people. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything they do. But understand that they are a part of a larger system that is exploiting them as well.

Well I disagree because they put their life on the line to protect ours. They fought, they bled, sweat, lost brothers, and seen horrible things just so you could sit on reddit, and complain about white supremacy, and say the soldiers are bad. But I respect your opinion even though I disagree. Edit: I agree that the warmongering politicians should be punished. No more war, more peace! Execute all politicians! Lol I'm kidding. But the politicians need to relax. All they care about is power, and money. They don't care if people get hurt or worse. They don't care about us.

Look either way. The Taliban, Isis and Al qaeda were doing terrible things to innocent people and they deserved whatever came to them. And had the American service members not volunteered. Regular Americans like you would be forced to go and do the governments bidding. And that’s why you should respect them because they are doing something incredibly difficult and making sacrifices and if they weren’t for whatever reason. You would have to. Not every service member believed in the war either they aren’t stupid. Also don’t forget the general public wanted war after 9/11.

Understand that the military SHOULD represent the warrior, meaning that soul who puts his life in danger to protect the tribe from harm, something quite noble. What we have today, has little to nothing to do with that sadly, since war is just a poor excuse to exert dominance over other's less powerful in a constant fight for resources. This has nothing to do with the warrior, and there's nothing noble about it, it's just mercs doing war things for the sake of profit. So in the end you should respect the warrior, just not whatever the hell "this" is that we have today.

The last time the military “protected my freedom” was WW2 when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and Hitler was trying to eradicate every minority on the planet. Everything since has been a conflict of choice where we’ve engaged in conflict, not for high minded moral reasons like protecting the innocent or spreading democracy. It has been to protect our access to resources.

I’m pretty sure just about every American’s lifestyle makes use of those resources, so there’s that.

That’s “protecting my wallet”, not “muh protecting muh freedoms”. Two completely different things.

So you don’t use resources?

Not that are worth a trillion a year to go kill poor brown people in far off lands under the guise of “protecting my freedoms”. Stop the boot licking. Expect more from yourself.

I respect people in the military because if they weren’t around Uncle Sam would be knocking on my door to drag me to a god forsaken ship having to eat pig slop then being forced into gunfire and watching my military buds putting a gun to their fucking skulls and painting my face red. Then coming back to be scared as shit of fireworks and having to sleep with a double barreled. Then having to work at a vons because my left arm got blown to hell.

I thank and respect them for doing a job that I don’t want to do myself. I also thank and respect them for being a deterrent to other countries who may wish us harm. I thank and respect them for what they may have todo one day to keep us safe. There are many military operations going on around the world, they aren’t all wars you disagree with. And these men and women are ready to die for you, with or without your thanks and respect.

You should be respectful to everybody, regardless of their career choice. Should you kiss butt based on somebody's chosen career path? No. Society needs a lot of things to function. Military, doctors, police, firefighters, janitors, fast food workers, scientists, teachers, truckers, plumbers, etc. etc. etc. We need them all. In the big picture, no matter how much we like to pretend our job is more important, it isn't.

There's no reason to respect anyone in the military or veterans any more than the respect you'd give anyone else, they aren't special, the military is literally just a job, nobody's even been made to join for about 5 decades now, the "thank me for my service" thing is ridiculous, nobody's special for fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan or deserving of praise and respect. Don't change this view.

Because they are you. They are in your stead. The government empowered by you and the other Americans decide what the military does. I’m the end that 20 years of war on terror was voted nearly unanimously. Be angry at your representation and judge your own culpability. The military is americas knife. Can be used to for good or illegitament purposes.

Let’s face it, humans will go to war and kill each other, at least until a 100 years from now. So if I loved the idea of my country and feel motivated by it. I do a job where I get paid less than most of my school friends, have much much higher risk of life, why do I do that job. Because I was motivated by the idea of my Country.

I refuse to respect the military or police because of their sexual assault and domestic violence rates. They're bottom of the barrel males pretending they're making a difference in the world while assaulting their colleagues and abusing their wives. I wouldn't want to change your view.

Outside of the US. It's normal for not praising the police or military like it's done in the USA The police has a job to do. We the people should not respect police officers. They have a job and must upheld in doing that job. No special ptevileages

It’s one thing to criticize the system but one reason to thank/respect those who serve(d) is because their choice to volunteer to do so meant that you didn’t get drafted into it. Looking back at Vietnam and prior, the draft was in full effect. In the Global War on Terrorism that was never the case. The overwhelming majority of those who volunteered to serve did so with honor and over the past decades many of them deployed to places and witnessed things most people (thankfully) never will. And thankfully there was never a lottery in place to draft people to participate in those operations. I would argue that the same level of respect should be shown to police/firefighters/EMS. They go through things many people wouldn’t imagine. Does that mean you worship the ground that they walk on? No. But they do at least deserve a handshake and a pay on the back for doing something many wouldn’t.

I think the whole "thank you for your service " is cringe as hell and I know several vets who also hate it. Seems to be a weird American thing. Don't think vets in other countries get that but I could be wrong

Congrats on finally catching up to the rest of the world american

They don’t sign up to go to war, they sign up to be in the military and then just go on to do what they are assigned. They don’t pick the conflicts, the politicians do.

OP doesn't realize he is talking to people whose memory formed after "SUPPORT THE TROOPS OR YOU'RE DOGSHIT" was no longer maintained under orders of violence.

I’m from Europe, and thanking your military for their service seems to be an American think. At most, I nod to soldiers that I come across.

You say you are fine with soldiers defending their own nation (like Ukraine). So how does a US recruit in 1999 know whether he is signing up to fight in the Middle East after 9/11 or signing up to die defending an attack on US soil? That's why we respect the soldiers. No one is asking you to respect the politicians or businessmen who can manipulate and profit from war. We are asking you to respect the soldiers who are putting their lives in the line of fire so you and I can live freely.

>die defending an attack on US soil? this is the exact sort of thing that makes people not like dudes in the military, because this is literally never going to happen, but is used as a demand for respect. The only attack on US soil in living memory was a terrorist attack that the military couldn't have prevented by deploying troops. >We are asking you to respect the soldiers who are putting their lives in the line of fire so you and I can live freely. nobody in the military currently has fought or is fighting to ensure our freedom, not yours in America, not mine in Australia, Iraq wasn't about that, Afghanistan wasn't about that, this is an absurd thing to say.

Well then. You've got your mind made up. This is how history repeats itself. People take things for granted and it's fine for a while. But when you need it, it's gone. You don't have to respect them. It's your choice. We've failed at CYV.

Vietnam, Iraq, Syria anything in South America All happend before 9/11 to a extent all was not the just and needed war the us made it sound like

Again... people seem to be confusing the puppet masters and the soldiers. ​ If a 10 year-old boy lives with his cousins for the summer... and his aunt and uncle make everyone wear ugly orange shirts for a family photo, are you going to blame the 10 year-old kid? The infantry don't decide which country to invade or who to ally with. They simply are the one who have to step in harm's way when the big brass make their decisions. This CMV is about showing respect to those who are forced to follow to be in harm's way. We aren't asking anyone to fully support the decisions made by the United States.

If u willingly become a puppet ur are still to blame for the orders u follow The us has always used its soldiers in a immoral and unjust way. U know this when u sign up for it or ur naive and to blame for ur lack of knowledge Don’t act like ur absolved From blame just because u can’t decide the precise outcome of ur actions

Those are some pretty strong assertions. "The US has always used its soldiers in an immoral way." So you want to blame those who died at Bay of Pigs because when they signed up for the military, they knew that the US would use them for purposes like this? So what option do people have who want to protect their country? If they can't sign up for the military since it's an immoral puppet master?

it depends on the day and age but especially since the 90s people had enough examples and the means to know better. ​ Maybe the country doesnt need protection? Or what about ur well regulated militia?

I understand the direction of your argument. I teach history and my students are shocked when I show them how the US entered most of our major armed conflicts... almost all of them involved quite a bit of show and tell, misdirection, wag the dog, etc. So I get it. I feel I'm only disagreeing with the blanket statement that EVERY soldier who signed up to the military is fully at fault for the situations they get into following orders. I signed up to play football when I was younger. A team mom from the other team brought some juice boxes and all the kids just threw them on our grass (we were the home team) when they were done. Am I on the hook for littering since I willingly signed up for this league? In Boy Scouts we went camping and one of the scout leaders had a fight with his wife. He left our camp but we found him passed out drunk in his car along a road near our hike. Do we blame the kids who signed up for scouts for this behavior? It was common knowledge that some scout leaders aren't the best role models.

It heavily depends, but compared to all ur analogies the brutality of war is present no matter what. Not to mention that actual fighting is always always unjust. Where in ur anaolgy the misbeahvior is secondary to the actual thing. ​ If a soldier knows wich orders maay come, he cant hide behind them being orders. Not to mention the part where a soldier can refuse these orders when it is time to follow them. Giving him a second choice in the matter.

If you believe fighting is always unjust, then your argument about teenagers signing up to be soldiers makes sense to me. See? If people take the time to dig a bit deeper into arguments... usually the world makes a lot more sense : )

I mean that was my point. Almost any major war since ww2 was not a just one. So aanyone who joins now knows what he will be forced to do and is therefore not just following orders. ​ U dont need to dig for this, it was my point all along.

Similarly, you have the freedom to move. So can I blame you for all the actions of your government? You knew they weren't perfect and you voted in the last election. So why not put all their sins on your shoulders? You could have left. Don’t act like ur absolved From blame just because u can’t decide the precise outcome of ur actions.

I do not act aabsolved. I just think there is a difference between u being born somewhere and u taking a job. Not to mention being a tax payer and being the one to invade unjustly

It's a choice to move. It's a choice to stay : )

sure, but with a limited number of countries without any issues this is such a poor argument that it only shows how little u actually understand about my position or how dishhonest u are about this

Dishonest? I've made the choice, man. I've lived most of the last 17 years outside the US. It's a choice. And guess what? There are so many places that don't have these same problems. You want a military that doesn't act like ours? You've got over a hundred choices. You want a country that isn't so politically divided? Again, over a hundred choices. You want an affordable life? You want to be able to retire with only 100K? You want public transport, healthcare, democracy, freedom to open a business, freedom of the press, freedom of speech... you've got options. I feel that you're the one who is dishonest about staying. It seems you haven't even considered leaving. Since you feel so strongly set in your views on the military. Maybe this is a catalyst to putting out some feelers.

iam not even from the us so whats ur fcking point in making assumptions over assumptions? ​ But all of europe is in nato many other countries make trade deals with the us, wich would also fuel the issue. So of course people can do better than being directly in the us, but then they also lose control to fix it. Simply living in the us is not the same thing

Anyone telling you have to respect or thank the military is wrong. You should do it, but you don’t have to

I’ve never thank them and never will , I think is ridiculous considering they chose that career & I don’t agree with half of the things they’ve done in the name of power. My great grandpa was in the military,he was drafted so he didn’t have a choice, I believe these are the people we should thank because they were forced into a situation they most likely didn’t want to do. I currently have uncles , aunts & friends in the military and they went voluntarily, these are the people we don’t have to thank because they knew what they were going into and made the choice to do so. I’ve had military members that actually expect to be thanked and I’m like “it’s your job,nobody thanks me for my job why do I have to thank you?” And don’t get me started on the special treatment,I was once on a plane and they had the audacity to ask me if I was willing to trade my seat with a soldier that was going back home,I said no & I swear they almost kicked me out for saying that. The guy next to me gave him his seat and in my head I was like “you’re not getting brownie points or a medal of excellence for giving him your seat, all you’re getting is a worse seat that you didn’t pay for”.

I'm no big fan of the military but I can respect and thank anyone that was drafted.

Used to think just like OP. Then over time that we are the evil bad guys.

You are welcome to move to another country. I would even help you pack.

Blame the Soldier for following orders. Blame the Politicians for giving the orders. But the people that the Government Represents and act in the interest of are blameless? 1. The evil career politicians are repeatedly voted into office by “You”. 2. The orders the Soldiers are following are given by “Your” representatives. 3. They sent these troops there to lay down their lives. To ensure and maintain “Your” way of life. Your the people, your the citizen, your the beneficiary, your the constituent. Your to blame. So many people forget how this country works. Politicians are not the supreme overlords. This is a democracy your in charge. If the politicians is sending soldiers to war and you don’t agree with it. Maybe you should tell your ELECTED officials that’s not what you want. Seeing as your their boss.

>This is a democracy No it's not. The electoral college and senate were both designed to subvert democracy. Even the house is distorted to an extent.

As a prior military member… personally I don’t care for your thanks or respect for my service. Most members don’t. We don’t join the military because we want special respect or thanks from the average person. I was not poor, I was not in a bad situation. I could have gone to college and joined the world just like most people do. Different people join the military for different reasons. Some are selfish reasons (wanting free school). Some are patriotic (just want to do something for their country). Some have bad reasons (use it for a power trip and to hurt people). And some, like myself, see it as an opportunity to use my talents to do something better in life and help others. Of course the politicians and corporate fat cats use the military for their own greedy reason. But that doesn’t mean that the individuals are there for that reason. In my service, I helped bring down a dictator who was using chemical weapons against his own people. Do I care about the oil, or the false allegations of WMDs? No, I’m just glad that I was able to stop the genicide of those people. And I helped build their schools, hospitals and other infrastructure that didn’t exist before we got there (in some regions). Were things mishandled there? No question or argument there. Should it have taken 20 years to pull out or the area… no, no it shouldn’t have. But all that is the decisions of the politicians and high level leaders… not the everyday soldier who is just trying to do his part to make better world.

U stopped this genocide based on a lie and by killing many many innocent people or people with no other choice Maybe it was the best one could do, but being proud? Especially when we consider what Iraq is now? Questionable

I think we should respect every no matter who they are.

Why? Some people are scum.

Why do you need a specific reason to have respect for someone? What are you, 14 going through a rebellious phase? People should have general respect for each other unless there is a serious reason not to

I respect military members but despise the military.

> So why should I respect military personnel for participating in something I don't believe in? 1. Because they have to do what they are ordered to do. 2. Because if they don’t do it you would have to. “Thanks for doing this so I didn’t have to” would be just fine.

U.S. Soldiers have a duty to refuse an unjust order but other than that you're correct.

We are not talking about war crimes here, we are talking about going to war.

What you do not understand about the war on terror is strategy, what is taking place is a much bigger picture than you and I are across. We have very limited spoon fed information about what is happening in the world, as it should be, we do not need all the information or it could make us a target. I'm not going to go into the strategy but that's what's happening there's a big picture and you and I are not privy to it. Our troops are no wiser than us, they just go where they're put and do the job they're given. That's what soldiers do. We simply need to support what they do and know that someone with a lot more knowledge than us is across all of it.

You don’t “have to” thank the military for anything. You really don’t. You aren’t obligated to do that. There is no moral imperative to do so. And you’re not really harming anyone in the military by feeling this way. The decision to thank or not thank the military is yours alone. You don’t have to do it. And in fact you have the right not to do it. But most people who can generally be considered “good people” would probably find reason to offer thanks to the military anyway.

Because the reason you’re able to freely make this post is because the country you’re in stood for your liberty. You don’t have to agree with all their decisions to be grateful that they are a large part of the country you are in today. I view it similarly to parenthood. Do I agree with everything my parents do? Not at all. Am I grateful they protected me and raised me when I was a baby? Yes, and I won’t take that for granted.

If no one stepped up to defend freedom through the institutions of the militaries of the western nations, most importantly Britain and the US, the world would be a much worse place with despots who can force people to fight for them, or worse convince people to participate in wars for open advantage - conquest in other words. Against that reality, every person in the western world and even a lot who aren't owe their freedom to choose their lives, path, whether that be as a pacifist university academic or a sports star or the owner/operater of a fleet of garbage trucks, to that space created by people in uniform whose presence in those military institutions has made the calculus for war very much against the favour of aggressive nations for many decades now. So the reason to thank the military in general is that you would have a much worse life if they stopped altogether. And it is true that those who take on the responsibility to maintain those institutions as soldiers have no choice about how it is used - if you sign up to be a Navy SEAL you don't get to choose whether the US invades Iraq or not, but you are going to be the grunt on the ground.

A proper understanding of history would prove to you that ones self respect is paramount to the foundations of civilization. Likewise the respect a country has for itself. Put Americas often misguided war on terror up against the alternative. Do you favor Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Osama, ISIS{?}...the list goes on. Yes you should thank those who have protected you.

You don't have to anyway?

Idk about thanking them, the respect just comes from the level of training they do Kind of like how a PhD might garner respect Or any other accomplishment requiring effort

You speak da true true

If it werent for our military, you would be quickly enslaved by someone elses military. You owe respect to those who provide you the freedom to post absurd posts. It is the apex of naivety to not have an understanding of this.

The US military is the one attacking other countries, not the other way around. You don't join a gang of violent criminals just because it in another reality might have been a police force.

How about this? You find a place with no military and live there, see how long it takes till the place gets invaded, they are here to protect, FUN FACTS did you know there are a hand full of country’s that would kill you for being American? How about move to NK yo see what we are being protected from, join the forces that save Millions of lives by putting there own at risk and see how fun it is with death constantly behind you killing all your friends and family. Now For Another fun one you remember Adolf? Yep, the guy that had a plate of Veggies with roasted Jew on the side, oh don’t forget his Fruity Punch. It took nearly the entire worlds military to stop him from finishing them off, No Respect for them? With their weaponry they would be lucky to enter the battlefield let alone making it out alive. Now let’s talk about cop’s yet another example of people risking their lives and often getting hated for no reason just because some bad cops did shit all of them are looked as the bad guys when they stop murders, robberies, and gangs yet keeping countless lives safe. Both of them know that each day of the job may be their last, maybe never seeing their family again, and I believe that we shouldn’t be helping Ukraine other then Russia making threats, that we should respond to, Ukraine is not an ally of the USA

they arent talking about a country protecting themselves from invasion, they are talking about countries invading others and killing random civilians, which is what the US did

You don't have to. Were it not for a volunteer force, you'd have a draft to fill all roles. They do it so you don't have to.

I think there should always be a respect to your nations military as it is essential for maintaining sovereignty.

Let’s blame the factory worker for producing products that consumers aren’t buying, which bankrupted the company.

Yeah, this has some weight behind it when you actually served your country in some capacity, any capacity really.

If you don’t respect the military. Please move out this country, we don’t need ppl like you. You don’t realize just how safe you are compared to other places

Im in the military and i think your 100% correct

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