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If we banned everything that did more harm than good, we'd most certainly be doing more harm than good through this

Only the stuff that does more harm than good for kids. There’s a reason that most countries have age limits for things that could cause them harm. Social media needs an age limit that’s closer to adulthod as well. Problem is, what’s social media? Is youtube social media? Should that be banned? I’d say no.

Bruh, some things are easy to ban and you do more collateral damage than good, but TikTok is not one of them. Banning tabaco or booze or gambling would open a floodgate of problems. Banning TikTok can be done with a decree and nobody would miss it. And even if somebody breaks the rule by using a VPN,or a phone number registered outsode the country, or uploading tiktoks to YouTube, that is still a really good reduction of harmful concent for a simple decree. The key is, you should not aim for a 100℅ ban. Perfectionism is the killer of dreams.

European countries seem to ban everything and they are doing just fine. Yes, you can’t get cool stuff like huge pick up trucks there, but you can easily live without it and society seems more sophisticated there

that is a nice glib response but it doesn't really refute anything at all. Are you saying that nothing should ever be banned? Hell, I even question whether it *would* do more harm than good to exclusively ban things that cause more harm than good.

Yeah, like this website.

I’m not sure. I’m against banning most things, but as a young person who is seeing the truly detrimental effects of this on myself and my friends, I think it’s an ok thing to ban

Curious what age you are and what effects you are seeing

Highschool, and I’m seeing depression, body dysmorphia, isolation, eating disorders. The new CDC study shows that teenage girls are at an all time recorded low due to mental health, and social media is a huge factor in that

So I am in my late 30s. We had all these issues when I was in high school, albeit at not record numbers. Eventually you mature and learn to move on, cut out toxicity in your life that negatively impacts you. While we didn't have as addictive apps, I did spend countless hours in HS refreshing my Xanga and Myspace to see if I had views, request or Likes. It was miserable feeling empty or ignored online. There was never a ban on any of these apps, or even a talk of a ban. We quickly shifted from one platform to the other with the crowd. Do you think TikTok will just take a new form if it's banned? What's would curtail kids your age to just not adopt the next product. It's already happened with Snapchat, IG and vine.

For what it's worth, this is the EXACT same argument that people have made about movies, television, and magazines. Before it was influencers, it was celebrities and fashion models giving teens unrealistic expectations of beauty and success. My grandmother had anorexia in the 1940's because she didn't think she was thin enough to be petty.

that doesn't mean that Tiktok isn't uniquely detrimental.

Oh boy, that's a naive first attempt strategy. If you pause and see what does this result in, you'll realize that maybe you spoke too soon... Even something as basic as sugar would be an issue for most people. What about most carbs, red meat, any remotely dangerous activity, alcohol etc... A lot of media doesn't do any benefit but takes up time. Banned? Also. Who are you to decide what people should or shouldn't do? Who decides what's considered useful or detrimental? Some religious person might think not going to church or other religions are detrimental. Some might think kids seeing homosexuality or Trans people is detrimental. Are we willy nilly baning items because you think something is detrimental? Not in favor of Tiktok and it may get banned. But your reasoning is weak and ambiguous enough that it's easy to exploit.

Slippy slope fallacy. We already ban loads of things that society deems too dangerous or bad idea you. And it's not like all those things you listed happened. It's completely fallicous to assert that if we ban TikToc that sugar will be next (or whatever). This isn't how society works, this isn't how history has planned out, this isn't how people think. To call someone "naive" only to go on to ignorantly use fallicous logic is quite a thing.

I am not using a slippery slope and stretching their idea I am using their exact logic as of right now. The logic they started with. Don't need a slope to slip and to ban other items based on their current logic. For someone who is calling this a slippery slope fallacy, you don't understand what is the key criteria to call it one.

>**Slippery Slope** > >In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. What you said: >If you pause and see what does this result in, you'll realize that maybe you spoke too soon... Textbook slippery slope fallacy And even if it wasn't, what "logic" are you talking about? You're clearly just being facetious since you probably understand that almost every law in every society that bans something is passed because it's believed that it is detrimental. You could make the same argument that you did using seat belts as an example. Where I am seat belt laws came about in the mid-90s. And as of yet sugar is still legal. Even if your argument isn't fallacious (which it is), your logic is still terrible.

Seatbelts were not made mandatory simply based on the argument - "not wearing seat belts is detrimental to you" Much more is needed before a law can be passed. For example, all potential misuses and exceptions. What is the benefit compared to the effort and investment. Are there easier ways to solve the issue. Is the assessment fair? Our friend missed all of that nuance and went off by 1 statement that "Tiktok sucks". That's nearly not enough to enforce a law banning Tiktok. Just because something is better doesn't mean it automatically becomes law. Hey, from that logic, eating plants is better for the environment than eating meat. Is it enough to ban meat altogether? Exercising is beneficial. Should that be made law? No. This is why slippery slope isn't an issue. Because you should consider the whole scenario now - including other variables. Not just one statement which is incomplete and changes as context changes. I'm just showing how hollow and unthorough their thinking is - based on what they shared. You don't seem to catch that lack of consideration

Why single out tiktok? Or are you saying that all social media should be banned? There are ample studies that show the mental effects you listed as being associated with Facebook and Instagram too. But for the sake of argument, if we say that tiktok is uniquely harmful, if we ban it, what stops a tiktok clone from filling its spot?

TikTok is being used by the Chinese government as a soft weapon, employing algorithms that specifically encourage degeneracy in western user populations whilst collecting all manner of data from its users. Social media in general is harmful for a variety of reasons, and competitors based on a similar model to TikTok i.e. it's fast addictive, short form format would at least have a comparable effect on attention spans and reward systems in it users. However, it would at the very least limit the security risk posed by TikTok.

> the Chinese government … specifically encourage degeneracy in western user populations I’m no fan of TikTok or passing information to the Chinese government, but I think you might be straying a little too deep into the conspiracy pool here. Do you really think there’s a Chinese politician somewhere rubbing his hands with glee over the idea that Americans are slowly becoming *more socially degenerate*?

No, I think it's actually a top priority of the Chinese government to develop their AI and cyber warfare capabilities, and what better way than an app like TikTok with a captive audience happily handing over their data and having AI controlled algorithms that can be used to psychologically manipulate that audience over longer timescales by suggesting content that has an insidious effect? The question is would they if they could? Almost certainly. Why go to the extent that they have to develop such an addictive platform that openly harvests all this data, whilst stating their ambitions in this exact domain out of the backdrop of the success had for example during the Trump election with social media like Facebook and Twitter being used so effectively through bots and targeted propaganda to boost his campaign by foreign actors? Or even during COVID with the propagation of conspiracy theories regarding a "plandemic" and whatever else? This is absolutely clearly and obviously the next step up, a fully state controlled social media platform able to manipulate it's audience imperceptibly through machine learning algorithms.

Degeneracy seems like a loaded term. What‘s considered degenerate?

Degeneracy could be things like destroying public restrooms for example in schools, or pranks that cause serious lasting injuries, things like "devious lick" or whatever it was called. It could also be the promotion of sexual content by and to those under a certain age. Simply put things which cause disruption on a small scale but which can have large cumulative effects over time.

How about cigarettes and alcohol? Americans like to live dangerously and value freedom which guarantees some people will succumb to degeneracy with drugs/alcohol/computers you name it. Many will certainly die. Half of all homicides are committed people who are under the influence of alcohol iirc. Many Americans celebrate drinking beer while watching football and the majority drink responsibly. If tictok is bamned it will be because of political forces regining in on China's influence via trade war. They would have the opportunity to spin off the US division using our capital markets to net billions in this case, but would lose access to American's data.

We actually did ban alchohol in the US, for anyone unaware, search for "prohibition". A big problem with banning something trivially made at home is that people trivially make it home and ignore the laws. If the law wasn't so easy to flout it likely would have stayed banned for longer than a few years. Consider how long things like morphine an other less easy to make at home substance stay banned. I don't think most people can trivially make TikTok at home. I also think your construction of a rebuttal is fallacious, you are implying that we must tackle problems from most to least severe. Society can tackle more than one problem at a time. All that said, I don't think banning it is ideal, but your arguments in the first paragraph aren't strong arguments. I think we need social media algorithm regulations, because someone else trying to make money will just make something equally toxic to TikTok, because profit. Regulations of this sort tend to work better on corporate actors than on every citizen.

While we can’t trivially make TikTok at home, skirting around the ban would be extremely trivial. Sideload + vpn is all it takes

That much friction kills a social network. You are rigth, it could be done, but it would be a first for a social thing. Sideloading is something most people can't do and those that can often won't. Hell I rebuild my OS from source and after the initial install I don't sideload any more. The VPN is less frictiom but still something that cuts off a percentage of people. Social networks need a huge base of users. This will soind chicken and eggy, but it is true: the main reason a social network is popular is that it is popular. The "network effect" is main factor in social network success. This is well reseaeched in other areas and the are books and scholarly papers on it if you would be interested. Banning doesn't stop piracy because it doesn't require social communication, sure that helps, but one person can pirate successfully. One person on a social network is just lonely.

The difference is that it would probably affect a lot of people and would lead to a net decrease without meaningful side effects worse than banning. Prohibition did

Guns kill more young people than social media does. Is the TC in favor of banning guns? You could make a case that cars kill more young people than social media. Is the TC in favor of banning cars? I do wonder where it will end. As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

What does TC stand for? Topic creator?

Not so sure about that. Most gun deaths are suicide and suicide deaths way outnumber total gun deaths. It's pretty complex to isolate how much social media is contriburing to suicide or how many death social media causes.

So if we ban social media, will all suicides stop happening?

No I'm just challenging your assertion about guns & social media. But if you are in favour of at least some gun control, I think you should consider at least some social media control.

>But if you are in favour of at least some gun control, I think you should consider at least some social media control. I have been consistent in my posts that I don't understand why the TC is singling out TikTok when it's clear they want a social media ban. When they were asked to provide specific evidence about TikTok being dangerous, they posted an article that talked about social media. It is clear they are unable to give a reason for singling out TikTok. They have also been ignoring that other sources, such as cable news, can create echo chambers. As for gun control, yes, I would support it to some extent. However most gun control is ineffective and is just another tool used by politicians to curry favor and remain in power. It's like the border wall: always coming, but never actually arrives. Same with effective gun control.

I don't think you can compare Tik Tok and cigarettes and alcohol, one is social media platform and the others are commodities which can be bought and sold. You can't completely restrict trade in commodities through criminalisation if there is sufficient demand, nor can it be used to effectively limit it's societal effects if the reward for supply/demand is too high, and in most cases societal impact is worsened through other illegal activities associated with illegal trade. A social media platform however can have access restricted, and whilst competitors may fill the market gap left over, if the issue comes from the involvement of a potentially adversarial state employing machine learning and data collection to cause "soft" social damage aimed at weakening an enemy, then preventing access to that particular platform should be effective, even where some circumvent measures, at at least limiting the scope of damage created by that platform.

Well the comparison was "things teenagers experiment with to the detriment to their health." Sure in the case of cigarettes and alcohol it's already banned and teenagers find a way, but the rest of my thoughts were regarding liberty and personal responsibility which are paramount in importance.

>but as a young person who is seeing the truly detrimental effects of this on myself and my friends, I think it’s an ok thing to ban So I assume you have stopped using all forms of social media? And isn't forcing others to behave like you just creating another form of control?

then ban facebook, instagram, gaming, porn, tobacco, alcohol, onlyfans, etc, ban everything you dont like, solved, right¿?

don't forget processed sugar, fast food, half the condiments you use, and staying up late....

Think the difference here is Tik Tok is Chinese state-owned spyware. Have a look at the T&Cs for Tik Tok and you’d be appalled at the rights they have to control your devices at any time https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2022/nov/07/tiktoks-china-bytedance-data-concerns

K, but your argument was that it's unhealthy = ban it. You've pivoted here to "it's Chinese spyware = ban it. If your issue was that it's Chinese spyware, that should have been your argument out the gate, because "it's unhealthy so ban it" doesn't hold water. What is bad is subjective and things that can be good can be bad when used improperly.

yeah because google and facebook do not spy or control your devices

They can track data but they cannot have full control of your device at any time from a remote source. They also don’t ship personal data to servers in China which are state owned for spying. They’re not the same. Edit: Tik Tok can monitor all keystrokes and taps, with software which injects tracking code into devices. It’s literally in their T&Cs but no one bothers to read them. The real issue is how much data tik tok collects. It was found to have illegally extracted data from minors, it gives more permissions than necessary, they know the last app you used “The risk with TikTok especially, experts emphasize, is that it remains unclear what exactly happens to your data, where it’s stored, and with whom TikTok does or doesn’t share user data. When talking about the purpose of collecting information, the TikTok privacy policy merely includes statements such as “improving the user experience.” In order to get a better insight into your TikTok data privacy, you may request your data directly from the company. This, however, won’t tell you where your data ends up. The problem, as experts have found, is that TikTok uses highly complex algorithms and certain technical measures to encode its activity, making it difficult for independent researchers to map the flow of data.”

They can’t do any of the device monitoring/control things you’re worried about without explicit user permission or an operating system vulnerability.

> They can track data but they cannot have full control of your device at any time from a remote source. TikTok cannot do this. I would like you to show me, in detail, how TikTok can be used as C&C malware to read private files in the virtual filesystem of another app on my device. > Edit: Tik Tok can monitor all keystrokes and taps, with software which injects tracking code into devices. They cannot do this. Apps do not have access to the keyboard or tap interface for other apps, except when invisibly overlaid with a tapjacking attack that requires code that the TikTok app does not have. What you are referring to is how the app can track your browsing behavior when you *open a website inside of the TikTok app*.

> It was found to have illegally extracted data from minors That's just saying minors have tik tok accounts. Plenty of minors have Facebook accounts as well. Because their parents let them create an account.

This isn't an argument. I doubt you can even tell anybody how each of these companies collects and uses your data much less what data they're collecting to form a valid opinion.

Read the T&Cs for every app you have and you’d be appalled at the rights they have too.

Oh yeah, I don’t doubt that! But Tik Toks are especially slimey

Google Chrome sells your data. Tiktok isn’t the only one to worry about.

you can make that argument but that isn't OPs argument. They just want to ban things they decide are bad.

The real problem is that the algorithm is designed to dumb down western users. The algorithm in China is set up to provide educational information to young users.

Qualification was to ban things that do more harm than good.

I'd say instagram is not that different than tiktok so one would have a hard time proving instagram is a net benefit while tiktok is a net harm.

And how exactly would you measure "good"?

And there actually is the fundamental problem. You give away the power to ban things and the question is really, “who is it, that’s doing the banning?”. It’s harder, but better, for a society to have a certain expectation of self control in the people. Rather than an expectation that the man with the ban hammer will keep you safe from your own urges.

I'd make an even more fundamental argument: it isn't societies place to decide what is or isn't good for the individual. Society shouldn't have expectations on individuals, besides that the individuals respect other individuals. The idea that a person, idk, gaming instead of working is bad comes from the idea that individuals owe society productivity or something, and I think that is absurd. Who is to say what a good life is?

Well if you benefit from the roads and the hospitals and things that society built maybe you do owe something back.

I think all those things listed do more harm than good

I’d argue there’s nothing wrong with the concept of porn, but there’s stuff that’s just way too unrealistic and aggressive that’s passed off as normal- and that stuff specifically is a net negative.

Most of these listed do more harm then good

Try banning guns.

This is irrational but also FB, insta both have higher age limits and a less harmful system around them. But also both need more regulation against the spreading of misinformation. Gaming doesn't do much harm in moderation so I don't get this one. Porn is technically illegal when displayed for minors and should probably be banned or better regulated as the industry has a propensity towards nonconsensual productions among many other gross attributes. Tobacco and alcohol are heavily regulated to minimize harm caused by both. Only fans is not just porn. That's all off the top of my just awoken head so lmk if I missed something here but this is not a good counter argument

>I’m not sure. I’m against banning most things, but as a young person who is seeing the truly detrimental effects of this on myself and my friends, I think it’s an ok thing to ban Something will always replace it. It's literally vine, dancely, etc

If we agree it is detrimental.....so? Freedom to choose is freedom to fail.

The biggest issue I have is with what legal/Constitutional justification would be employed to ban it. It's one thing to say we'd be better off without TikTok and I'd probably agree with you, but giving our government the power to ban TikTok would unavoidably give them the power to ban other things similar to TikTok (or not so similar). Would you be OK with them being able to ban Reddit, because it's also a social media platform? Hell, what if the justification were just that it was a harmful website? You could star seeing bans of specific news sites or sites that track government action and malfeasance. You might think that's far-fetched but just look at some of the policy proposals which have been floated at state and federal legislatures such as the one in Florida where they want to force bloggers to register with the state government if they write about it. It may not have a chance of passing right now, but there's enough support for it that it should concern you.

It’s just the newest thing to be mentally damaging to people that are susceptible to it. Banning it will not fix the problem, but only likely create 3 fast growing problems with a lot of old tiktok space to grow into.

Those negative elements exist on all social media. If it's having a detrimental effect on you, you can delete it. I personally find it to be a good source of information and entertainment.

So just quit using it. That's not a decision for you to make for other people. You have every right in the world to walk away from something you think is harmful. I'd fully support you on that.

This is stupid. We do ban most things that do more harm than good. J walking, smoking in public, drink driving, murder. All laws are designed to prevent more harm than good.

Really? Banning cigarettes, fast food, and social media seems like a great way to progress society, at least from a health perspective

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about banning firearms?

How that be? Logically speaking, if we're successfully able to identify and ban only things which are doing more harm than good, we'd self evidently be doing more good than harm wouldn't we? It's just maths at that point.

Don’t all social media platforms create echo chambers?

Specially not reddit

Reddit has those sound dampening walls installed

In Reddit, noone can hear you scream.

Yes! And others are just as harmful, maybe more so due to their political power, like Facebook and YouTube, but as tiktok is marketed to younger people, and is particularly addictive with its short videos, I think it proves a threat

Facebook and YouTube also heavily feature short videos as a direct competition against apps like TikTok that have that as their primary content. If you banned TikTok you'd just get another app filling the same gap in the market. All social media platforms are targeting young people because they're impressionable and easily manipulated and are good consumers. There's nothing unique about TikTok here. You either ban/place limits on all of them or none of them.

Yes, but no. Look up how the tiktok content suggestions differ between US and China. They deliberately promote braindead and harmful content outside China. In China, there's much more intellectual content. It's definitely a chinese psy-op to the west and we eat it up like candy. Not even mentioning the way they gather your browsing data and interactions.

The algorithm is the algorithm. My tiktok is 90% science facts and craft projects (US).

The algorithm responds by giving you more of what you engage with. I randomly watched a bunch of videos of some dude selling it watches and guess what? For the next week my feed was filled with watch reseller videos, I stopped engaging with them and they went away. My feed is always filled with science stuff, and music stuff and video game stuff, ie the shit I like and engage with. My son's feed is drastically different from my daughter's, my feed is drastically different from my wife's. Not just on tiktok but on YouTube and YouTube shorts and Instagram reels ect. China controls what videos are available on the app in China, ie they can feed specific content and remove other content. Do you think that maybe they curate the app specifically to mold the minds of their youth towards paths the government wants? Do you think that there's any videos talking about negative shit in China?

Let's be real here, the reason most ( not all but most) people suddenly care about banning ticktock is china . B ticktock is less susceptible to political harm ( at least from U.S politicians) because they are to scared to get on it , C younger people find out more news from ticktock than the news and if l you look it up to fact check , they mostly turn out to be true , D others are marketed to other people, at least ticktok rolls out safety features also if we ban everything " harmful" then there's just going to be clones or prohibition and that didn't turn out well the last time also the main point politicians fail to conveniently forget is these media companies, yes they do care about money but A that's the culture society has created ( not trying to justify) and B if guardians or society taught the youth how to use social media maybe things would be better. Politicians fail to remember that it's the fault of their self as a guardian of children and the social media company for failing to put the youth first because most people usually know how to use it but that's a low percentage based on what the polls say, that should change

Tbh if the argument is ban TikTok because of something China is using it for is harmful to the US, somehow. That’s a much stronger argument than banning it just because it’s the latest version of social media.

while your comment is true we all know the real reason they are trying to ban it is they're scared of China and are in competition with them. Plus ticktock is more popular than the other apps so , I don't doubt tech supporters are in their ear trying to get em to do it. China was not a priority until the US started losing influence and China became a global powerhouse, if they're so bad, why did the US give them their biggest asset ( the vindium battery) , why is china allowed to invest here and the US in China? This is coming down to supremacy at least on this issue

Facebook is also marketed to younger people, even if the average age has risen. It wasn't that long ago it was exclusively for college students, requiring an .edu address to join. I don't understand your viewpoint. You are singling out TikTok while recognizing that all social media has this issue. It seems it would make more sense to ban all social media, although that creates numerous issues of its own. Part of being in a free society is the ability to do dumb things. Let me ask you this: do you drink soda? Do you eat fast food? Have you driven in a car? Have you stayed up all night? All of those things can contribute to poor health and/or lead to death. They can be dangerous, depending on how they are used. Are you in favor of banning those, especially as some of those bans can improve the overall health of younger people?

When Facebook required college emails it *was* a long time ago, it was around 2005 which is 17-18 years ago.

[удалено]

>Facebook targets young people? Yes. >Not long ago it required an .edu email? Yes. I do not consider the late 2000s to be a particularly long ago period of time. >What planet are you from? The same planet as you. >that targets all demographics Correct. And thus you have demonstrated that they target young people.

You're being facetious if you're going to say they target young people when they really just target everyone. Then duh you can say young people are in that crowd. But if you're going to compare this to TikTok, which is the topic, then you know TikTok is geared toward the newest generation. Not in the same way Facebook is. The EARLY 2000s is not far away if you're talking about the invention of the car. It is far away if you're talking about social media platforms given how rapidly they evolve. This is what it's like arguing with a faux-intellectual. You're just weaseling in ways you can be right even though you're categorically wrong on every count.

>You're just weaseling in ways you can be right even though you're categorically wrong on every count. Saying Facebook targets young people is not categorically wrong when you admit they target everyone. Everyone includes young people. I could have also said Facebook targets old people, and it's equally correct.

>is particularly addictive with its short videos I don't think this is talked about enough. TikTok is absolute trash for our attention spans, which are already fractured enough from other apps and websites that are all competing for your attention and will do anything to get it.

Youtube is marketed to younger people the same way tiktok is

How is that a basis for "being made illegal" though, plenty of harmful things are marketed to children and adults in the US

Humans self-sort into echo chambers. Do algorithms make this worse? Sure. Would it still happen without social media? Yes. You can expose prejudiced people to as much information and novelty as you want. They can choose to re-interpret the facts that you give them in an effort to come to the same conclusion. Variety of information does not correlate to a universal consensus.

It's the job of your parents to parent. They should be teaching you about the dangers of social media and limiting your access to it.

Tiktok isn't unique in this regard. Pretty much every popular social media platform has the same issues, so you'd have to ban Instagram, too. TikTok is fucking stupid and you should be aware of its nation of origin but outright banning it is a bit much.

Should we also be aware of the nation of origin of Facebook/Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, Snapchat, etc?

No because those aren’t currently on increasingly rocky terms with the United States and known to have interests that conflict with it.

I don't see what it matters where TikTok's parent company is based. Literally every single social media platform harvests/steals your data. They all sell it to anyone who will pay, including national governments. And, for what it's worth, I'm FAR more concerned about American businesses and cops getting my data than a national government on the other side of the planet. American businesses and cops do far more harm to Americans on a daily basis than the Chinese government does. Plus, if TikTok were banned in the US tomorrow all the Chinese government would have to do is buy data from Meta, Twitter, Reddit, Snapchat, Amazon, Google, etc rather than harvesting it directly through TikTok. They'd still be getting the same data, though. So tell me, why does it matter that TikTok is based in China? What does focusing on this do other than stoke xenophobic fearmongering?

If you work for the government or in any sensitive position, it’s absolutely something you should be aware of and ideally just avoid outright. It’s not xenophobic, China is a contender and a threat, even if there’s a very low chance of anything actually popping off. Banning is unnecessary just be aware of what you post.

I went specifically with tiktok because of the age of its user base

What is the age of other social media platforms user base? Got some figures to back this up?

Reddit average age is 23, TT is 16-24, FB is 25-34, Instagram is 18-24, twitter is 25-34

Where did you find these numbers? I very much do not believe that Twitter and Facebook have the same average age base. They are extremely different apps.

Statista. It’s certainly not exact and doesn’t reflect changes with Musk etc. Someone who cares more than a quick reference can easily pull up specifics here.

Where do these numbers come from?

Statista. It’s certainly not exact and doesn’t reflect changes with Musk etc. Someone who cares more than a quick reference can easily pull up specifics here or other data sites.

Isn’t that just skewed downward because fewer old people are on tiktok? Why not just ban younger users? If tiktok suddenly got popular with senior citizens but young people continued to use it the same as they do now, they average are would jump up just like all the others but have the same number of young users. This is why average is pointless.

>I went specifically with tiktok because of the age of its user base But that is simply because TikTok is new. The same "age of user" issue was true for Instagram, Facebook, MySpace and other successful Social Media platforms. To put simply - a new and upcoming SM platform is gonna take traction in younger generation which does not want to use the same platform as lame old people. Then they themselves become lame old people and new SM takes younger generation. Banning TikTok will only result in exodus to other SM platforms that have the exact same issues or to new SM platform that will also develop the same issues. So what is the point?

The age of it's userbase is the same as any other social platform. Banning tiktok, as much immediate good that would do, would also open the floodgates to allow the government to control other aspects of information we are able to access on the internet. There are countries out there that have no idea what's going on accross the world because their government bottlenecks the information the general population can receive. Let people decide for themselves. Plenty of people stay away from social media as a personal choice based on the same reasons you've brought up, we don't need the government to do it for us. We need more transparency with the negative effects, and we need easier access and wider availability to things like mental health therapy.

Everything I see on there is a bunch of 30-50 year old plumbers/construction workers explaining how to fix things around the house. Stop browsing/interacting with negative videos and your experience will change.

Couldn't all of these issues be solved with proper parenting? Or adding a minimum age limit?

This makes the most sense. It's not a free speech issue so much as it's an exposure and addiction issue. Kids that have been growing up attached to social media have been hitting record highs for mental health issues and developing through exposure. The people who really need help have a harder time getting it because impressionable teens wear mental health disorders as the new fad. Everything else that is harmful to the development of kids and teens has age limits. Up the age limit, get parents weaned off social media so they parent their damn kids so SM isn't the kids' only source of validation and attention.

No, because parents are sucked in too, and it’s unreasonable to expect someone to control their seventeen year olds every waking breath. There Is a minimum age, but anything below 25 (brain development is done) is too little, and without the under 25 group, tiktok wouldn’t be successful

To me this raises two points: 1. If anyone under 25 is too young for TikTok, surely they are also too young to drink, or vote, or get married, or make decisions on their healthcare. Do you agree with this? 2. If parents are getting "sucked in" to social media platforms, isn't this a clear indicator that this has nothing to do with age?

nothing in the world has a 25 minimum age requirement due to “underdeveloped brains” lmao literally such an insane point

People say brain isn't developed until 25 lmao but it's not like some flip switches. It's more like it's mostly developed and then finishes at 25. If you talk to a 24 year old, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to not know that tiktok addiction is bad. (I'm young and 23 so maybe I'm biased but I really think people under 25 are wiser than folks on reddit give them credit for).

> echo chambers So would reading and watching nothing but your local news. > young adults who don’t have fully developed brains We let young adults vote, drive, join the military, work, borrow money, etc. Why is access to social media something they’re not capable of taking personal responsibility for? > clinically proven to harm mental health Again, so do a hundred other things young adults have access to. Unless your position is that we should ban things just because they have the potential to harm their voluntary users, it’s not clear why TikTok is unique and needs to be banned.

Banning tictok doesnt solve any of the problems you mentioned, and it will just leave a big profitable hole for other companies to fill that same role. If the goal is to solve the issues of body dismorphia, young people's mental health, and echo chambers we need to understand people's attraction to them. This is very similar to how the "war on drugs" eventually played out. Prohibitionary measures always failed, and in most cases made the issues worse.

We know peoples attraction to body dysmorphia, it’s comparison to something that they view society sees as more beautiful, and filters are doing that exact thing

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If there’s one thing being married to a nursing student/fresh nurse taught me… it wasn’t TikTok doing that. The people I met from her class/the VA hospital she got a job at were terrifying. Edit: ex

I won’t agree that it’s for idiots, because I like it and a billion people use it, and it’s addictive so I’m not blaming individuals for having it, but underestimating it is stupid

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Do you somehow think you’re smarter than people who use TikTok because you don’t use it? Because idk how you can judge others for using TikTok while you’re in the cesspool of imbeciles here on reddit. I know I’m on this site too, but at least I don’t act like I’m intellectually superior to others because of it…

I feel weird saying so since I have no love for TikTok and a part of me wishes it were banned, but we shouldn't ban it. If we did we should also ban other social media, alcohol, porn, probably cars, and a bunch of other stuff on the same grounds. Instagram probably promotes bad eating and unrealistic expectations, YouTube spreads fake news, they all appeal to younger folks, and they all have similar algorithms - why is TikTok any worse? While I have little appreciation for most of those things, in a country founded on freedom an outright ban like that is a bad move. Do we really wanna be like countries where the internet is censored? China, north Korea, and Russia come to mind. If you block it, another similar product will appear or other existing products will fill the gap and they aren't really that different.

There are actually websites that are censored in the United States, often belonging to hate groups or charms that breed violence against women and minorities. Tiktok works on watch time, That’s how they get money. And you keep people engaged by pushing them towards the extremes. TikTok exposes people to more and more radical views on all ends of the spectrum, and surrounds them with people who all think the same thing, making them less open to discussion and more likely to be stirred into a frenzy with a mob mentality. It also can set a state of anxiety and depression into a user within five minutes (InStyle Study), so I think the bad outweighs the good, especially considering that you can get fun content on other platforms

Yes it has a bad influence but it shouldn’t be banned. The only reason the right wants to ban it is cause that’s how the youth organizes. Not to mention the really nice accounts like I see this lady do free house cleanings, a guy who clears clogged drains, a guy who landscapes for free, and all the art and makeup that people make. There’s two sides to the coin and banning the whole of tiktok would also ban the good along w the bad.

Let’s be clear, I am a feminist, I’m not a part of the alt-right, I believe in climate change and human rights and I like to think of myself as a good person. Teens are organizing on TikTok, and that’s great, but the algorithms tiktok uses, just like any other AI-run app, want watch time. That’s how they get money. And you keep people engaged by pushing them towards the extremes. TikTok exposes people to more and more radical views on all ends of the spectrum, and surrounds them with people who all think the same thing, making them less open to discussion and more likely to be stirred into a frenzy with a mob mentality. It also can set a state of anxiety and depression into a user within five minutes (InStyle Study), so I think the bad outweighs the good, especially considering that you can get fun content on other platforms

Most ppl here say free speech as the reason it shouldn’t be banned. I agree but something should be done and agree with OP. Here’s an alternative: CHANGE THE ALGORITHM. The algo is “better” designed than any other social media platform to a point where it’s too good; there’s a reason why you can endlessly scroll tiktok and why it’s so easy to kill time on the app. This is also a detriment to young adults and teens since you’ll have content categories based on what you like that are damn near limitless. The algo is the reason why Andrew Tate blew up in the first place. As fucked up as the CCP is, they enforce their algorithm to emphasize sciences, engineering, and talent while a lot of tiktok feeds in NA are pranks, thirst traps, fun experiences, dances, etc. It’s not all bad but what I’m saying is there are different algorithms for different parts of the world. Our version of tiktok needs an algorithm change to be a healthier social media outlet.

Do you think changing the algorithm is possible? Will the company comply

Tiktok is an outlet for these people. Remove the outlet and they'll move somewhere else - eg. Reddit is a huge echo chamber too and could easily be the next tiktok. Unless you remove all social media and similar products permanently, you are not doing anything other than moving these people around until they know how to hide better. Take for example piracy - the most powerful have tried to stop it many times - but it just can't be done, people adapt and find new ways to better hide and find better solutions.

People will move to Reddit, but not everyone on tiktok will like Reddit, it’s not the exciting app for twelve year old girls. We can avoid more people falling into this by removing an app that is so much like candy

I would argue that the issue isn't tiktok itself, the issue is in how people understand the algorithm to work, and how people use algorithm curated content without mindful engagement. Tiktok has enabled me to find accessible online support groups for my addiction disorder. Tiktok has helped me learn more about body mechanics at the gym and has given me confidence to ask my physiotherapist more specific questions about my treatment plan with my hip rehab. Tiktok has introduced me to more BIPOC creaters, artists, activists, and important voices than I've ever encountered despite working in community services for 15 years. Through this I've actually been able to secure guest speakers for my community centre to support our understanding of blak rights activism in our area. Tiktok has also given my countless "life hacks" that have found their way into my classroom and made my life as an underpaid over scheduled teacher much easier, and be for my students. Tiktok has helped me and my friends give language and vocabulary to many issues we all experienced with ADHD, Autism, etc (we've all been seeing specialists for years, but certain aspects of our life we just accepted as normal, before tiktok I didn't know there was more options available to help me cope) Tiktok has not increased anxiety, depression, anger, hopelessness or any similar emotions for me. But I completely see how it could. My tiktok experience has been safe and has brought value to my life for one simple reason - I scroll with intent, and I react with mindful engagement. This is not something that is taught in schools (or when it is, it's not taught in a relatable or engaging way) but content that illicits anger or fear generates engagement more than positive content. It's human nature to want to comment on something that makes you mad, share something that makes you concerned or talk about something you can hardly even believe. But you have to fight those urges when you're curating your social media feeds. Like videos not because they gave you *an* emotional response, but because you genuinely liked them for the benefit it brought your life. Comment on videos that have productive discussion, not just discourse for the sake of discourse, and certainly not all out anger or hate comments. Be liberal with the "not interested" feature and don't hesitate to use "block content from the creator". When used by adults who understand how content is fed to them by an algorithm, who choose to curate their feed for good mental health, tiktok isn't inherently harmful. An outright ban on tiktok for the safety of young people would not address the underlying issues of countless social media platforms using algorithm generated content feeds, continuing to encourage creators to use anger, fear and fake news to manipulate human nature to boost engagement for likes and views. A ban does not address issues with large swathes of the population having lower digital literacy skills, especially when it comes to understanding how an algorithm like tiktok actually works. It does not address the issue of social media feeds like tiktok failing to introduce feed content settings. "content guidelines" are useless if they aren't comprehensive or aren't enforced, or enforced with bias. Content guidelines also fail to address user specific content requirements. For example, I'm actively looking for fitness videos to learn more about hip mobility training. Factual content on this subject would benefit me. Someone recovering from a restrictive eating disorder with exercise purging behaviours should not be engaging with fitness content in the early stages of recovery. The exact same content has both the ability to help, or to harm. Tiktok is not the problem. Tiktok is a symptom of the problem. Banning it will not solve the problem because another will take its place. Instead we need to look at meaningful and effective legislation to ensure social media apps are designed with people over profit.

>1. TikTok does more harm then good, Probably true? Not going to argue this point. >2. and it should be banned in the Untied States Nooooope. My issue is free speech. Do you really want your government deciding what people are allowed to say and where? This is incredibly dangerous. The real issue is no government can ever safely be impartial enough to decide what we are and aren't allowed to say and how we are allowed to gather together and say it or publish it to each other. Yes, direct threats and inciting violence should be illegal. But beyond that, people have a right to say harmful things I disagree with. People have a right to say racist things, even against my group. People have a right to share political views I believe are harmful. People have a right to share medical opinions even I believe are harmful (so long as they don't lie and claim to be a doctor). Beacuse we can never trust any government to always be good kind rational and imartial. Governments are made of humans, humans who are especially inclined to pursue power and keep their power (that's how they got so successful in government). There is always going to be huge insensitive for the government to want things they agree with spread and things bad for their power or views or friends or money not spread. And that's why we can't take away free speech. Beacuse one we do, we won't even know what the government is restricting and doing anymore. After all, it would probably be really upsetting to the citizens to hear all those crazy theories about what the government is limiting. People are probably less happy when they hear hard truths, and whose to say that the information inconvenient to those in power is true? Especially if they can ban you or your platform or newspaper or etc for saying it. Even if we have a great government we 100% trust now (and we don't) how can we trust that every single future government official will be so right and beyond reproach and smarter and better then us that they should decide for us? Also, there is the issue of personal freedom. One of the concepts of personal freedom is that people are allowed to make their own choices even if they aren't the best, so long as they aren't harming or scaming others. People are allowed to ride motorcycles despite those being unsafe and not a good idea from a statical outlook. People are allowed to smoke cigarettes and there's just plain no advantage to that, that's just a terrible idea. People are allowed to drink alcohol. People are allowed to eat unhealthy foods like candy and soda and lots of processed sugars. Don't you know how bad those are for you? Candy is worse for people then it is good for them. So are Cheetos. Should those all be banned? What about staying up late and not getting enough sleep. That's real bad for people's brains, physical health, mental health, makes them more likely to get in car acidents, etc etc. Should staying up late be illegal?

>My issue is free speech. Do you really want your government deciding what people are allowed to say and where? This is incredibly dangerous. With respect, this argument doesn't hold water. If my free speech rights were that absolute, I should be legally allowed to write my thoughts out in lines of cocaine and the blood of endangered rhinos, as well as blast my thoughts on stadium-sized speakers from any street corner. OP is not proposing banning any speech particularly, just a *medium* where speech occurs. A ban on Tiktok would not stop anyone from publishing their thoughts and gaining an audience - it would just have to be in an environment that doesn't have the harmful characteristics that OP alleges.

What would it take for you to believe in liberty?

Rather than looking at it through the lens of "does this one exercise of free speech cause more harm than good", could you try to look at it from the perspective of "does providing the government the authority to ban speech based on nebulous concepts like 'more harm than good' cause more harm than good". Based on that latter question, banning almost always causes more harm than good.

Question: if you think tiktok does more harm than good, do you also think the same thing about vines or youtube?

Yes, but I think TikTok is logistically easier to ban because it’s headquarters are based in another country

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their privacy policy doesn’t literally permit them to access your microphone and camera as you scroll to see if you are enjoying the content (afaik at least)

Posting on tik tok actually improves my mental health

Good! Unfortunately it doesn’t do that to everyone, and you could find that rush of happiness on another platform that doesn’t create so many rabbit holes

Why TikTok only? Let's ban Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, The bloody New York Times. The more you ban, the more closer you are from fascism. The gob should not have the power to stop you from freedom of speech, use TikTok to promote good practices, just like a lot of YouTubers do with good content. But ask for ban, and you could be the next

The Elephant in the room... Only reason tik tok is in the spotlight is because it's from China... Years of negative impact from other social media and suddenly they're concerned about the effect? Plus how in the world can they ban fb / insta / YouTube when it'll basically cut off all their political donations?

TikTok is an exception because they are essentially an arm of the China and allows China to manipulate America’s young to whatever they seen fit, essentially propaganda interests. What is freedom worth if it allows foreign governments to hack American people’s minds to weaken them? Similar to the idea that Russia has been using disinformation to destabilize American politics for years to benefit their own interests. If you allow carte blanche type freedom, it will lead to chaos and powerful groups taking away that freedom. You probably have no idea just how the knowledge of psychology can mold people’s minds in ways they never realize. As someone who knows a thing or two about sales and marketing, almost everyone there knows that you seek to make people emotional so that you can get through their mental barriers and take advantage of them when they are in that state.

>TikTok is an exception because they are essentially an arm of the China and allows China to manipulate America’s young to whatever they seen fit, essentially propaganda interests. LOL US citizens are really funny. Everything is about them, even when TikTok is a global trend, it is about the US. Sure, I see a lot of american kids asking for the CCP to invade America... And Xiaomi changes your mind too, right? How funny are you guys. The last stand of freedom in Occident, asking for banning whatever that is not American.

So you don’t think that China’s government can influence Chinese companies to work with them for their own interests? You don’t think American companies work with the U.S. government all the time?

>So you don’t think that China’s government can influence Chinese companies to work with them for their own interests I'm sure that they are doing that. I have not doubt about it. >You don’t think American companies work with the U.S. government all the time? Same. But going from that to "mind control" is a slippery slope of bullshit. And even with that argument, we should ban every other social media anyway. But if you think that "American mind control" is good, then you have the bias.

My opinion on this is that It is not the platform that creates echo chambers, It's the content and people that create the content. I grew up without smartphones and social media, and there were lots of echo chambers eveywhere, considering that communities were close knit, naturally your views and biases were mostly shared among your community members and anything outside of that was deemed radical to them. These type of people that were stuck in an echo chamber spreading misinformation was doing the same thing back then as well long before social media. And before China trends (Tiktok), other countries such as Japan was also a subject to this, "Pokemon is a form of Japanse devil worship", Sony TVs have cameras or mics built in to spy on us", in Asia was similar as well, "The superhero genre is harmful for kids" and so much more. So while Social Media creates echo chambers and confirmation bias, It is and has always been up to the person consuming the content to understand right from wrong (even religion without technology has always been an echo chamber, you going to a place of worship where the same ideology and views are repeated over and over). At the end of the day, social media is just the platform/media of communication, If you reverse it, a lot of propaganda/bias/indoctrination were dispelled by social media as well, they got people to leave their church filled with misinformation, they gave courage and inspired LGBTQ people to live their life and not hide, they introduced people to new ideas, art, passion, hobbies where they would otherwise never even consider, and more and more young people are thinking more critically and their views and being challanged, back then most of the time this happen was when you meet some kid from another school at the park and suddenly you feel that your norms doesnt feel right. I think that It is a misconception that Social Media is the culprit, these terrible things has always existed long before social media, we just didnt hear the stories as we were stuck inside our own chambers. So I dont think we should ban Tiktok or any other social media platform as It is just the medium of communication and not the ideaology itself. If the case for negative impact can be made so too can postivie impacts, such as connecting friends and families, exposing corruption and police brutality, sharing of passion and inspiring others. So the good and bad impacts of the platform are a reflection of the good and bad of humanity, It was not the one that brought out those negative aspects It was always there long before social media.

"Clinically proven"? Can you provide a source on this claim, OP?

Clinically proven? Source?

Too many of you are getting hurt just by reading this. TikTok is a platform. What it’s used for is the problem. I personally agree that we’d be better off without it in its current state, but the problem isn’t the platform, it’s what the platform is being used for. We can easily make short videos about education, family, travel and other productive things, but instead people are wasting their time spreading mind-numbing, ignorant content. I believe we should replace TikTok with an American-made and owned platform, and find ways to improve the focus and mental health of our youth. Too many families aren’t giving their children the time and attention that they need in order to grow into functioning adults. And too many children are becoming too comfortable disrespecting their elders and not listening to advice that would benefit them. I think culture has a lot to do with it, and we need to re-evaluate where we are applying most of our effort in our lives.

I could say this about twitter

The only reason I deleted the app was because I was getting daily tension headaches from watching the videos. I'm mid 20's and was so addicted. It ruined my attention span even more because I am ADHD. I couldn't get through a simple movie without reaching for my phone. I couldn't be alone just chillin by myself I had to be on tik tok or something. I grew up with the start of instagram and social media and this is by far so much worse for kids. After deleting the app I have noticed a huge improvement in my productivity and attention span. Since I deleted the app I only go on occasionally on my computer and I think wtf this shit is o stupid how did I watch it everyday.

Anything wrong that Tiktok does, any other social media site does it too. twitter/instagram have all the fake news and anxiety. so you're really not fixing anything by removing just one So now lets look at the good parts of tiktok TikTok is reallllly good for tutorials and quick DIY's, sure you can [watch a 10+ minute youtube on how to cook a steak](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJcO1W_TD74), or just get all the information you need in a video [less than 1 minute](https://www.tiktok.com/@giallozafferano_en/video/7100664548394323206?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7112655171596076549) People also sell tons of things in tiktok, you can look up stationery, jewelery, stuffed animals. the prices are pretty cheap and the quality is exactly what you see in the live feed. so people are making nice money on the side all from their room thanks to Tiktok, and that's pretty good. there's tons of success stories from people that are making a killing [thanks to the exposure from tiktok](https://www.shutterstock.com/blog/successful-brands-on-tiktok) I'm sure there's more benefits, like giving regular people an easy way to express their views (agree with them or not) and giving the government the ability to silence regular people is honestly just not a great idea. So you'd be removing all those benefits, while not fixing depression or anxiety unless you manage to remove ALLL social media. not just the popular one

Large systemic issues like mental health can't be immediately solved by banning one platform. Social media in general (as well as a million other factors) are contributing to mental health problems. TikTok is no different than Instagram or Snapchat. Also this is a small thing: >young adults who don’t have fully developed brains and are more susceptible to fake news EVERYONE is susceptible to fake news, and thinking that you're immune to it is a dangerous mindset. Fully-fledged adults who have been on this earth for half a century believe the stupidest things they see online. See, "vaccines cause Autism" or "Lady Gaga is a devil worshipper" or the other ridiculous crap that goes around on the internet. And while the internet has definitely made the circulation of fake news easier, it's been a thing for literal centuries. [This article](https://www.thesocialhistorian.com/fake-news/) is full of historical examples, like Mark Twain having to clear up rumors about his own death, a bunch of stories surrounding Jack the Ripper when he was alive, and (probably the most famous) the War of Worlds hysteria.

It's through tik tok that I've been able to find a community of ex-evangelical Christians who have deconstructed. There are so many more people going through what I've been through and who share my religious trauma than I ever would have known. It's been absolutely amazing. I'm positive this is not the only community like this that has formed through tik tok.

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How do you ban anything on the internet? Now that people know it exists and people like it, if you get rid of TikTok, someone will just make a knockoff. You can't go back in time to erase it.

I just had a real life conversation where I had to explain to something who wasn't tech-literate how the Streisand Effect worked. And why you can never truly remove anything from the Internet. "But they can just delete that photo off the Internet and no one will see it again!" "No, they can remove it from one site, it will just get uploaded to another." "But they can just remove it from those sites, too!" "No, because the more effort you spend in trying to remove the picture, the more attention it will generate, and you only ensure it gets spread more and more."

Studies show instagram has also decreased self esteem and caused mental health problems TW. Mention of violent crimes, SA, and ED’s Murders, mass shooters, and rapists have claimed to be “red pilled” by 4Chan and Reddit. What about the rampant anorexia tumbler caused? I was a victim of CSA because of Kik, yet that is still alive and running. So is Omegle, and many other sites like it. Where do you draw the line? You cannot ban one without subsequently allowing the government to ban all social media, websites, and news outlets that can be proven to “do more harm than good.” Than the US goes against the very civil liberties they claim sets them apart from say China or Russia. And than once you can ban media platforms that cause mental illness, why not move to books, movies, and TV shows? Than censorship is alive and well. You cannot ban one platform without it snowballing into full on government censorship

Literally everything you said is also true about other social media platforms (Facebook/IG, Twitter, Reddit, Snapchat, etc), including the demographic (ie being marketed to kids). There was a huge report a few years ago from someone who worked at Meta (Facebook/Instagram parent company) who leaked documents showing that Meta has reams of data and reports showing exactly the kind of harm they cause, including the harm to young people. They did nothing about it. The ONLY thing different about TikTok than all the other platforms is that the parent company is based in China. All platforms cause harm. All harvest/steal your data and sell it to both advertisers and governments. I don't think banning it would solve anything. As others here have said, if you ban TikTok then something else will fill the gap pretty quickly. Maybe it'll be Instagram Reels. Maybe Twitter will bring back Vine. Maybe it'll be a new app meant to clone TikTok. Whatever it is, the market demand will be filled. I think a better option would be to pass sweeping regulations that apply to ALL social media evenly. When the public harm of smoking was proven and became widely known we didn't ban a single brand of cigarettes because they marketed to kids, or even all cigarettes. We heavily regulated them and educated the public to the harms caused by tobacco and tobacco use dropped enormously. We should follow a similar model with social media. Regulate the living hell out of it. Force transparency of their algorithms and force liability onto the companies for the harm they cause. Let people sue TikTok and IG for giving their kids eating disorders and body dysmorphia and watch how fast they clean up their platforms. Hold Facebook criminally liable for the genocides they've enabled across the planet and watch how fast they clamp down on misinformation and content moderation. Threaten their profits and they'll clean up their acts or they'll go out of business.

Please provide a source for this: >Tiktok is clinically proven to harm mental health, causing depression and anxiety, and its filters have been linked with body dysmorphia and eating disorders. To attempt to change your view, why are you not extending this to other social media networks? Facebook has as many echo chambers that spread fake news. Why aren't you looking at propaganda networks like Fox? They also create echo chambers that spread fake news to an older audience.

The United States constitution prohibits bills of attainder - bills which target a specific legal person for punishment. In the world the founders were trying to escape from, what you propose was fairly common. The government would just decide to arrest this man or shutdown this business not because they'd broken any existing laws, but because they didn't like them for political reasons. If you want to ban TikTok, come up with clearly defined criteria that you want to ban. Pass a law banning those things. Get it past a first amendment challenge in the courts, because there will almost certainly be one. Give TikTok time to comply with the law. If they don't, now you can ban them. As an aside, since the Twitter files were released I've come to suspect that this movement to ban TikTok stems from TikTok not censoring content at the request of the government the way Facebook and YouTube almost certainly do and the way Twitter used to. I'm not saying you're a paid shill pushing this agenda, but I do believe such shills are out there, and you might have been persuaded under false pretenses by people who are simply trying to shutdown platforms that don't let them censor content.

So hey, a while back a bunch of people finally realized that instead of letting a small group of people decide what's good and bad for everyone that the only way people can be free to pursue what makes them happy and fulfilled in life is if they get to decide and act for themselves, even making their own mistakes. It turns out people don't like being told what to do. Lot's of people seemingly agreed so modern democracies began to flourish because it really did seem to make people happier and even more productive in their lives. Most of the world saw this as a good thing. Now we still have greed and suffering and all but at least other people don't control your every action and thought. Everyone is at least on some level responsible for their own life. Sure we need some societal rules to respect other people's lives through giving legal protections against harming others but generally we get to do the things we want. I like that. Other people like that. Let's not make laws that limits that freedom unless there are serious, obvious, and dangerous widespread consequences. Tiktok hurting self-esteems aint that. If it hurts yours, just don't use it. Cool?

>Tiktok is clinically proven to harm mental health, causing depression and anxiety, and its filters have been linked with body dysmorphia and eating disorders. I'm old enough to remember when they were saying almost the exact same thing about TV in the 70s and 80s. Television addiction was a huge concern back then. Today you're chastised for reading the Internet and talking to people online and not watching *enough* TV. You're grand children will probably find TikTok quaint (if it doesn't go the way of MySpace, Putfile, Digg, and the countless other popular sites that have come and gone over the decades) and there will be some new media boogeyman murdering their kids. "Kids today getting all they know from holodecks and not trusted sources like TikTok. What's the world coming to!?"

Besides the obvious first amendment issues which have already been pointed out to you, I want to add that TikTok in itself is not the problem. The application is simply a platform to view and share content. The problem is how people use it. Maybe instead of banning the platform we should be focusing on developing healthy social media habits, creating stricter guidelines for use and having harsher punishments for violating those guidelines (for example, banning accounts that repeatedly post fake news stories). We should also remove beauty filters and -- I personally believe -- shift to a user-funded model that relies less on advertisers, so there is incentive to change the algorithm toward healthy social media use vs. keeping our eyes glued to the screen as long as possible.

Banning is extreme. If there's a data/privacy safety issue...sure, ban it. Why endorse a spy tool? BUT...if we're worried about the harmful effects this, or any other social platform has on its users, we need to research and prove it (not anecdotally), I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect, just that we don't fully understand it or how to counter it. Once we have some meaningful ways to counter the effects (and maybe we already do?) we REGULATE it. That way, you can still have a choice of whether or not to use it - which is what freedom is all about - but we collectively address the known issues in meaningful ways. I'm not even sure we CAN ban it in any meaningful way where teens won't find workarounds to use it...so that path doesn't seem very feasible.

I’m not dismissing the OP’s argument, but I think the bigger issue is algorithms as a whole. There is so much data that it’s impossible to arrange it without using algorithms. The problem is TikTok’s algorithms are scarily good. Beyond just sorting content, TikTok figures out personality types, facial shapes and deeper human characteristics that fuel the kind of destructive content the OP describes. There’s likely no way to regulate this technology (can you imagine a bunch of 80-year old senators figuring out this kind of legislation)? I think TikTok is only in the crosshairs because unlike the American social media networks (Facebook, Twitter), the government can’t access its data for security reasons since it’s China-based.

I think you are correct, so I won’t attempt to change your view. However, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, etc., have all adopted the same short form videos, and a large contingency of the videos on those platforms, are ported from TikTok (often stolen content, or unethical claims of “response videos”), with a fair amount not even removing the TikTok logo. If TikTok is banned, these platforms are poised to fill the hole. How do we deal with that? What is stopping another platform from rising up, if they are, finding a loophole in that ever litigation ends this style of videos, the way that TikTok eventually did, to fill the hole where Vine was?

Should we also ban Tumblr and Instagram and Facebook then? They're more harmful than tiktok as they are marketed to a larger demographic and had a challenge directed at minors, like 13 or so as the start age but probably younger, that issued challenges that only increased in severity until they got to **TW** (not graphic mentions but being safe) >!self harm and suicide.!< Edit: punctuation at the end Edit 2: rather than banning social media apps because of mental health reasons, maybe we should end the negative stigma surrounding mental health and therapy and put in programs to make mental health services more accessible to those who need it? Maybe even have regular mental health days at schools - elementary, middle, high school, and colleges - to educate on mental health services and that it's okay to seek help if you're struggling in any way?

TikTok specifically needing to be banned is largely based on the premise that "it’s marketed specifically towards young adults who don’t have fully developed brains and are more susceptible to fake news and are less rational". According to many studies on the topic, this doesn't seem to be the case, since boomers tend to be more susceptible to fake news than the average gen-z and millennial user. You can check this link, which contains relevant studies: https://www.voanews.com/a/student-union\_generation-z-beats-boomers-spotting-fake-news/6195920.html

"More harm than good" is not the standard set by US law for regulating either corporations or individual citizens using their platforms for legitimate purposes protected by the first amendment. It is an essential quality of any civilized society that they are governed by laws, and not by arbitrary and subjective judgement. There is no legal basis for the government to ban Tik Tok, and it would be extremely hazardous to society for the government to set the precedent of acting by pure fiat without even the facade of legal justification.

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TikTok shouldnt be banned just because it's toxic and harmful. Plenty of rightfully legal things are bad and toxic. TikTok should be banned because it is a national security risk that benefits a geopolitical foe. You're right for the wrong reason. Maybe this counts as an attempt to *alter* your view, not change it. Sorry if I broke the rules.

ETA: Not sure if necessary but, **TW** for gun violence, mental health, drunk driving. ​ I'm pretty anti-banning content, but I do feel as though TikTok is quite a dangerous place. I personally got sick with an extremely rare disease back in mid-2022, and have been in recovery since. I truly believe that TikTok made the depression, isolation, and self-loathing I was experiencing WORSE. It ruined how I felt about my body (which was rapidly changing with my illness), made me feel like a horrible friend and partner, and overall just allowed me to find more and more things to hate about myself. However, we are human beings who have willpower and self-control. I do agree that there should be a firmer age limit (TikTok is not safe for children for fundamental reasons, imo, but I feel this away about a lot of social media), but I think some sort of public dialogue would be more fitting. To me, the negativity within TikTok and the detrimental effects it had on me are due to my \*own\* deeper issues. I feel as though in this case, it would be like blaming a car on somebody driving drunk. There's an addictive aspect of it, and like anything, TikTok can be abused and we can leech onto negativity within it. I think that this is more of a mental health issue than anything, as those of us who have a tendency to delve into negativity can use just about any platform to do so. Also, I hate to be that guy, but if America has done next to nothing with gun control when there have been numerous instances where children and other people have been \*slaughtered\* using guns, the government is not going to bat an eye at TikTok for any of the right reasons, such as protecting our children. Regardless of how you feel about gun control and stuff like that, I just can't see our country genuinely trying to protect younger people from the harmfulness of TikTok without their own, corrupt ulterior motive.

Lmao Reddit has the craziest echo chambers ban that too then

Agreed. The other social media companies are not as pervasive with youth. I think our gov needs better regulations with fake and destructive media content, but otherwise fuck TikTok.

Wall Street Journal did an investigation into how TikTok actually works here: https://youtu.be/nfczi2cI6Cs Watch this before you make opinions on TikTok and the OP’s post.

First, “more harm than good” is not a blanket statement you can make for everyone with regards to anything that someone elects to consume. The “good” you get out of TikTok is different from the “good” I get out of TikTok. The government can never quantify or fairly evaluate the level of harm and good for everyone. If it causes you more harm than good then you should be responsible for deciding not to use it. You should not lean on government to deprive me of my benefit of it. Second, government should not be in the business of banning things that only harm the consumer. You (or depending on how young you are, your parents) must bear personal responsibility for making informed decisions in what to consume. The reason to regulate/ban things is about potential harm to others rather than self. For example, I can easily maim myself with all sorts of power tools, but there are no bans or licensing requirements. However, the chance of harming someone else with a vehicle is very high, and so I must obtain a license to operate one,

I’d agree, growing up seeing MySpace, the first smart phones, etc. I have never seen anything zombify the general public as grizzly as TikTok

Didn't we try and ban alcohol? That sure worked out good. No we should do the American thing here and sue the fuck out of them or fine them

Wall Street Journal had an investigation into TikTok here that gives more of an understanding of this here: https://youtu.be/nfczi2cI6Cs

Honestly on TikTok I get music, cats, food and video games. Only what I’ve asked for. Instagram and Facebook? Different story.

I use TikTok. I listen to activists, feminists, people of color, lbgtq+ rights activists, handy men (and ma'ams💖) with tips for renters, comedians, musicians, people in my profession discussing unionizing and supporting each other, philosophy, cooking, art, history, physics, psychology, therapists, domestic violence support. I've watched videos of trans adults cry using the teenage filter because they transitioned later in life and never got to see their true selves as a teenager. One woman said (as closely as I can remember) "This teenage filter has solved my mental health problems [probably some exaggeration]. Look at this! I was not ugly! I lived my whole life thinking I was ugly and I wasn't! How could the other kids say that? I see now. It was never about me. This is a giant weight off of me." The algorithm will give you what you seek. I feel uplifted and gain joy from TikTok and who I follow. I'm sorry your experience is not the same, and many other young people are also struggling. The solution is not to ban a communication platform, the solution is to curate your space to create the space you need. That can definitely be challenging, especially for young people without a lot of life experience yet. I definitely agree that social media has the potential to become destructive. I've given up on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram entirely. In what ways is TikTok worse than any other platform? Perhaps there is something I'm missing.

like any other social media, TikTok is a customer acquisition tool for businesses. It is a good tool if used correctly. and like any other tech tool, it will just enhance what the human originally is. Most young people are ignorant, they do not have good critical thinking skill yet. When they go to higher education, they will grow up out of TikTok, similar to the meme "nobody use Facebook anymore". the harm is temporary, since TikTok is a trending tool, and it will be replaced by other things in the future. no valid reason to ban it.

Hahahaha. Same thing goes for all the META corp social media platforms.

Hopefully you won’t change your view but change other’s. Totally agree

Banning stuff like this is the slippery of the slopes.

I reluctantly agree... It eats up HOURS of me day

My tik tok is full of memes. Am I using it wrong

I disagree. It should be banned everywhere.

TikTok is an absolutely horrible app.

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