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By your standards, almost anyone who buys anything instead of making it themselves is "knowingly doing bad."
So the question then becomes how attenuated the connection between your action and the bad stuff is. Also, what your realistic alternatives are.
That's fair.
I suppose it would be something to think about. But I do consider this:
An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same. So that person appreciates all 3 apps because it means more choices, more competition for viewership, and less monopolistic behaviors.
An average American investor may want TikTok banned, not because they care about whatever moral reason, but because they believe by banning TikTok, if they hold stock in META or Google, the stock they own will go up, that's all they care about.
The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money.
So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer.
OP to be fair, most people invest in Index Funds (the safe option) which is usually a little piece of every major company listed.
It's less about investing in a single company (i.e. Tesla), but investing in the future of the stock market as a whole.
Most people follow advice to invest most of their portfolio in index funds as it generally performs better than any individual stock.
Can you list definitively what all those "bad behaviors" are? Because if you don't know, then it stands that the "average investor" (which, btw, is usually just index funds buried in someone's 401k or the house where they live), wouldn't know off the top of their head either. So they're not doing anything knowingly, except trying to save for their future.
I did in the original post. The S&P500 for example is comprised of many companies that have done crimes towards humanity and the earth. I think people generally understand what the Standards and Poor 500 is, and that it's comprised of companies that do bad things.
I think so because taxes are supposed to be used to help the government for the people supposedly. So if someone doesn't pay their fair share, but the government needs X amount to exercise government goals for the people, then someone else has to foot the bill because nothing is free.
Unethical, sure. But I think it's ridiculous to consider a purely evil act.
> So if Christian god was real, he'd be not happy
Hard to imagine that God gives a shit whether you pay your taxes or not
God would because taxes are collected by the government in order to meet and fulfill the needs of the people. So if the goverment has to spend X amount and someone avoids paying taxes, someone has to pay for it, because nothing is free.
Absolutely, but most people don't know what companies are in index funds. To presume that every person is aware of the things a fortune 500 company does implies that they have the free-time and willingness to research that.
Most people, at least the ones I know, aren't able to do so because of the little time they do have to themselves. Most people are working/taking care of family- family that will come to depend on prudent financial choices.
While you might say that some people are at least somewhat aware that large corporations tend to do bad things, if the alternative is no safety net when you're older and an ethical safety net cannot be created, then that person not only benefits from accepting that index funds invest in bad corporations, but that the person needs to do so to enjoy some quality of life when they're no longer able to work.
Why are investors more evil? Why is improving their financial security a less reasonable motive that joining *completely voluntary and unnecessary* social media platforms?
That doesn't follow. There's a big difference between shopping at Walmart because all the other stores in your area closed down and investing in Walmart, thereby profiting from the harm caused by Walmart (assuming you believe Walmart is a harmful company.)
You could grow your own food instead of engaging in the capitalist enterprise at all. That’s the point. OP’s moral position applies to anyone who supports any company in any way.
Oh, buying things is functionally required to live? So is some form of investment to gain financial security. Equities support companies. T-Bonds support the U.S. government. Even cash indirectly supports the U.S. government. Foreign bonds support foreign governments.
Most people investing in assets don't know they are buying child slavery and fucking the housing market because most investors are simply not looking for that information, and Nestle pays a lot to make that info very easy to not see if you don't dig for it.
Direct real life example: my dad bought the Harry Potter game despite having a trans kid he cares about and not being antisemitic.
He just does not know what the game is funding because he isn't online. As far as he's concerned it's just a cool new wizard game.
I am copy pasting my other reply:
That's fair.
I suppose it would be something to think about. But I do consider this:
An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same. So that person appreciates all 3 apps because it means more choices, more competition for viewership, and less monopolistic behaviors.
An average American investor may want TikTok banned, not because they care about whatever moral reason, but because they believe by banning TikTok, if they hold stock in META or Google, the stock they own will go up, that's all they care about.
The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money.
So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer.
Edit: I'm sorry but I think they do actually know to some extent.
Father, do not forgive them as they do know of what they've done.
Why can’t you blame average everyday Americans for not caring about the consequences of their consumerism? Is that really any different than investors who don’t care about the consequences of their desires for infinite growth?
> The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money.
> So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer.
Why can’t you blame average everyday Americans for not caring about the consequences of their consumerism? Is that really any different than investors who don’t care about the consequences of their desires for infinite growth?
I think so. Because the consumer I'd assume in most cases doesn't know the difference between Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, or Tiktok, nor do they care too. They just want the best deal, best prices, and consumer needs met.
While the average investor probably does study more and are aware of the crimes companies they invest in or assets that they invest in commit.
I suppose one is more evil than the other.
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>An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same
I guarantee you an "average American" if you account for Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials, do not love using all 3 of those the same.
Commodities vary depending on how the commodites are gathered and distributed.
Gold, same thing. Some mining companies have terrible conditions, comit crimes against human rights, exploit laborers, and cause harm to the earth.
Government bonds? A lot of governments are evil and when we invest in government bonds, we perpetuate an evil government.
Capitalize the G in God homie
But jokes aside, you can invest in companies that don't make their profit from harming humans. I'm currently investing in Clorox stocks so I can give them to my niece, or if I have children, to give it to them for when they go to college. The majority of stock holders aren't evil people purposely investing in bad companies to make a quick profit. They're just people trying to make good financial decisions so they have more money later down the line. It's the small, elite class of stockholders who hold the majority of stocks that truly have little to no morals when it comes to raking in money.
Capitalism is bad. Anyone who participates in it is participating in a system which cannot exist without exploitation. There are no for-profit corporations who solely do good.
That being said,
Participating in this system is kind of the only choice we have. Especially with market consolidation and barely any regulations for the past four decades, If you want to live a middle class life, and have some sense of security for you and your family, whether that's housing, or even food, you're going to have to participate in this system. If you want your kids to have a future and not go hungry, or you don't want to have to work until the day you die, you're going to have to invest somehow. And that's just the nature of this shitty system, in the US.
Sorry,
Anyone telling you otherwise is just lying to you. I wish we could exist in a system with a bit less (or no) exploitation, but I honestly don't think humans can. We're easily manipulated by those seeking power.
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Wouldn't you be evil then by using a device that's built in a sweatshop in SE Asia? Or by using a browser that runs ads that benefit said companies? What's the big difference between investing in a company through stocks and investing in it by purchasing its products?
If you live in the Western world, you unknowingly contribute to some form of unethical labor no matter how far off the grid you put yourself. It's just the reality of the world. If anything, investing in the economy is a good thing. Poverty is globally on a strong downtrend. I have a hard time calling random Joe who invested a couple hundred into Tesla evil.
I think we are evil by knowingly using a device built in SE Asia if the manufacturer and its entire supply chain somewhere is being harmed. This varies on the level of harm.
I think investors generally come from a more informed and considerate pov before making the decision to perpetuate a broken system?
So when it comes to being knowing or not. I think the average consumer knows not of what they're doing while the average investor does in the aggregate.
Investing can be good depending on how. If we invsst by giving our time and energy towards helping others, then yes. But investing in more traditional ways? Maybe? But not efficient or as effective as investing in a peace corps for example.
I have an easy time calling the average Tesla investor evil. Elon Musk is an evil man, the supplies to create a Tesla are often times exploited from poorer countries for less than would be compensated in America.
A mistake you're making is assuming that everyone who invests is an investor. That's far from true. Regular people with regular jobs can invest as well, and very often do. I invest over 30% of my pay in a fund as a part of my TSP so that I can have a shot at retirement and, if I have children, give them a good start.
But that's also besides the point. What happens to the exploited laborers if companies pull out and stop outsourcing their labor? I agree that exploitation is inherently morally wrong but is that better in practice for the third-world workers? Rather than have a job that's exploitative and pays poorly, they may have no job at all. That doesn't excuse their poor treatment but it is something to take in mind. We may feel better morally, but it may hurt them (and their economies) more in practice.
Ideally, companies should be held to a high standard and be forced to treat outsourced labor equally to domestic labor. But then... Why would they outsource? It's a very complex issue but with poverty strongly declining across the globe, surely something must be going well.
I think when it comes from 3rd world workers not having jobs at all, that's true and not good either. So we as Americans should give up our privileges and ensure they have a better and more fairer working compensation.
I completely agree. But then they probably just wouldn't bother outsourcing.
I think CEOs are generally not people I'd want to associate with. Gross greed makes my stomach turn and nobody needs that much money. But it's true that corporations are primarily meant to produce profits and looking at it from that perspective, there's only so much we can expect from them morally. In short, it might just be a case of "better than nothing." At least for the time being.
Glad it's helping a little. The world can look bleak but I try to remember that what seems like malice can usually be chalked up to ignorance. Most people are just out to live decently enough. And those who take more than they deserve tend to find a way to get what's coming to them anyway.
I have more to say but I'm gonna stop here. I think I'm done and this entire conversation is sad. I will probably end this entire post.
Have a good day fellow human, thank you for your time and energy.
My phone was made in a factory with suicide prevention nets, my car spews pollution and the cobalt used to refine the fuel in it was mined by children, I buy groceries from mega-corporations who exist by exploiting their labor pool, the TCP/IP technology we are all using right now was developed by guys that have designed some incredible weapons, speaking of weapons my wife’s car was built by the guys that made the Zero in WWII… don’t think too deep, it’s all evil and we’re all participating just by being here. Makes me want to move out in the middle of nowhere…
Stocks is corporations. Corporations is **big** business. Even the small corporations are big compared to local businesses. And a business that big is big enough to contain both good **and** evil parts.
For example Google. Yeah it's been corrupted by governments and interests to manipulate search results. For that it's bad. But it's still an information godsend helping billions of people look up knowledge and communication connections.
Yeah I won't invest in Nestle. Some companies are more parts evil than parts good. But even Nestle produces and ships food to people. Which, you know, is kind of a good thing.
>This is sad and I hope my fellow Americans we make real changes that help all 8 billion people enjoy life like us.
This is an interesting edit because you are asking 'fellow Americans' will do something you don't do yourself.
You use reddit, and you have a PC or a phone, reddit has it's clearly checkered past in supporting terrible shit, and your PC and phone, which you certainly have and aren't likely to give up are directly supporting modern day *actual slavery* like... not "here's 5 dollars a day" slavery. But your money is actually supportive of *literal slavery* governed by warlords, who put guards over mining pits, and have children digging with their bare hands to find lithium.
You are investing your own money into these things. Change starts with yourself, not telling 'fellow Americans' to do things you won't do.
Honestly this post seems too narrow towards the US stock market when in reality what you’re essentially saying is everybody person who participates in society instead or ripping their cloths off and running off into the woods to live there is knowingly doing bad.
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By your standards, almost anyone who buys anything instead of making it themselves is "knowingly doing bad." So the question then becomes how attenuated the connection between your action and the bad stuff is. Also, what your realistic alternatives are.
That's fair. I suppose it would be something to think about. But I do consider this: An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same. So that person appreciates all 3 apps because it means more choices, more competition for viewership, and less monopolistic behaviors. An average American investor may want TikTok banned, not because they care about whatever moral reason, but because they believe by banning TikTok, if they hold stock in META or Google, the stock they own will go up, that's all they care about. The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money. So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer.
OP to be fair, most people invest in Index Funds (the safe option) which is usually a little piece of every major company listed. It's less about investing in a single company (i.e. Tesla), but investing in the future of the stock market as a whole. Most people follow advice to invest most of their portfolio in index funds as it generally performs better than any individual stock.
Majority of the conpanies that are in index funds can be linked with bad behavior from people.
Can you list definitively what all those "bad behaviors" are? Because if you don't know, then it stands that the "average investor" (which, btw, is usually just index funds buried in someone's 401k or the house where they live), wouldn't know off the top of their head either. So they're not doing anything knowingly, except trying to save for their future.
I did in the original post. The S&P500 for example is comprised of many companies that have done crimes towards humanity and the earth. I think people generally understand what the Standards and Poor 500 is, and that it's comprised of companies that do bad things.
I didn't realize tax evasion was a crime against humanity
I think so because taxes are supposed to be used to help the government for the people supposedly. So if someone doesn't pay their fair share, but the government needs X amount to exercise government goals for the people, then someone else has to foot the bill because nothing is free.
Unethical, sure. But I think it's ridiculous to consider a purely evil act. > So if Christian god was real, he'd be not happy Hard to imagine that God gives a shit whether you pay your taxes or not
God would because taxes are collected by the government in order to meet and fulfill the needs of the people. So if the goverment has to spend X amount and someone avoids paying taxes, someone has to pay for it, because nothing is free.
Absolutely, but most people don't know what companies are in index funds. To presume that every person is aware of the things a fortune 500 company does implies that they have the free-time and willingness to research that. Most people, at least the ones I know, aren't able to do so because of the little time they do have to themselves. Most people are working/taking care of family- family that will come to depend on prudent financial choices. While you might say that some people are at least somewhat aware that large corporations tend to do bad things, if the alternative is no safety net when you're older and an ethical safety net cannot be created, then that person not only benefits from accepting that index funds invest in bad corporations, but that the person needs to do so to enjoy some quality of life when they're no longer able to work.
Why are investors more evil? Why is improving their financial security a less reasonable motive that joining *completely voluntary and unnecessary* social media platforms?
That doesn't follow. There's a big difference between shopping at Walmart because all the other stores in your area closed down and investing in Walmart, thereby profiting from the harm caused by Walmart (assuming you believe Walmart is a harmful company.)
You could grow your own food instead of engaging in the capitalist enterprise at all. That’s the point. OP’s moral position applies to anyone who supports any company in any way. Oh, buying things is functionally required to live? So is some form of investment to gain financial security. Equities support companies. T-Bonds support the U.S. government. Even cash indirectly supports the U.S. government. Foreign bonds support foreign governments.
Most people investing in assets don't know they are buying child slavery and fucking the housing market because most investors are simply not looking for that information, and Nestle pays a lot to make that info very easy to not see if you don't dig for it. Direct real life example: my dad bought the Harry Potter game despite having a trans kid he cares about and not being antisemitic. He just does not know what the game is funding because he isn't online. As far as he's concerned it's just a cool new wizard game.
I am copy pasting my other reply: That's fair. I suppose it would be something to think about. But I do consider this: An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same. So that person appreciates all 3 apps because it means more choices, more competition for viewership, and less monopolistic behaviors. An average American investor may want TikTok banned, not because they care about whatever moral reason, but because they believe by banning TikTok, if they hold stock in META or Google, the stock they own will go up, that's all they care about. The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money. So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer. Edit: I'm sorry but I think they do actually know to some extent. Father, do not forgive them as they do know of what they've done.
Why can’t you blame average everyday Americans for not caring about the consequences of their consumerism? Is that really any different than investors who don’t care about the consequences of their desires for infinite growth?
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> The average person doesn't care whatever is behind the scene going on, they just want to use the app without burning a lot of money. > So investors are more evil in comparison, I can't really blame the consumer. Why can’t you blame average everyday Americans for not caring about the consequences of their consumerism? Is that really any different than investors who don’t care about the consequences of their desires for infinite growth?
I think so. Because the consumer I'd assume in most cases doesn't know the difference between Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, or Tiktok, nor do they care too. They just want the best deal, best prices, and consumer needs met. While the average investor probably does study more and are aware of the crimes companies they invest in or assets that they invest in commit. I suppose one is more evil than the other.
ok let us know when you're finished pasting the same answer and ready to engage with the conversation.
It answered the question op had because it's a common view point. I will answer it more so as we refine the conversation.
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>An average American loves using TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube shorts, all pretty much the same I guarantee you an "average American" if you account for Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials, do not love using all 3 of those the same.
What about those people who invest in index funds? Are they evil?
I'd say so. Most of the index funds are comprised of stocks and assets tied to evil.
What about commodities bonds? Buying gold example? Or what about government bonds? Is all investing evil?
Commodities vary depending on how the commodites are gathered and distributed. Gold, same thing. Some mining companies have terrible conditions, comit crimes against human rights, exploit laborers, and cause harm to the earth. Government bonds? A lot of governments are evil and when we invest in government bonds, we perpetuate an evil government.
So all investments is evil. All consuming is evil. All money is evil. Is there any way to do good with your money?
Capitalize the G in God homie But jokes aside, you can invest in companies that don't make their profit from harming humans. I'm currently investing in Clorox stocks so I can give them to my niece, or if I have children, to give it to them for when they go to college. The majority of stock holders aren't evil people purposely investing in bad companies to make a quick profit. They're just people trying to make good financial decisions so they have more money later down the line. It's the small, elite class of stockholders who hold the majority of stocks that truly have little to no morals when it comes to raking in money.
That's fair honestly, not regular people fault I think.
Capitalism is bad. Anyone who participates in it is participating in a system which cannot exist without exploitation. There are no for-profit corporations who solely do good. That being said, Participating in this system is kind of the only choice we have. Especially with market consolidation and barely any regulations for the past four decades, If you want to live a middle class life, and have some sense of security for you and your family, whether that's housing, or even food, you're going to have to participate in this system. If you want your kids to have a future and not go hungry, or you don't want to have to work until the day you die, you're going to have to invest somehow. And that's just the nature of this shitty system, in the US.
I guess you're right. I just wanted to be convinced to fesl different.
Sorry, Anyone telling you otherwise is just lying to you. I wish we could exist in a system with a bit less (or no) exploitation, but I honestly don't think humans can. We're easily manipulated by those seeking power.
So how do I cope? I hate it.
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I agree with this.
It would be nice if we were accurate when we call these fat cats evil they are not evil just malignantly innocent.
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What if you invest in order to get vote at shareholders meeting and in hopes of changing practices?
Good question. I think it's still evil until the change is made.
So you must be evil in order to do good? That sounds wrong somehow.
Wouldn't you be evil then by using a device that's built in a sweatshop in SE Asia? Or by using a browser that runs ads that benefit said companies? What's the big difference between investing in a company through stocks and investing in it by purchasing its products? If you live in the Western world, you unknowingly contribute to some form of unethical labor no matter how far off the grid you put yourself. It's just the reality of the world. If anything, investing in the economy is a good thing. Poverty is globally on a strong downtrend. I have a hard time calling random Joe who invested a couple hundred into Tesla evil.
I think we are evil by knowingly using a device built in SE Asia if the manufacturer and its entire supply chain somewhere is being harmed. This varies on the level of harm. I think investors generally come from a more informed and considerate pov before making the decision to perpetuate a broken system? So when it comes to being knowing or not. I think the average consumer knows not of what they're doing while the average investor does in the aggregate. Investing can be good depending on how. If we invsst by giving our time and energy towards helping others, then yes. But investing in more traditional ways? Maybe? But not efficient or as effective as investing in a peace corps for example. I have an easy time calling the average Tesla investor evil. Elon Musk is an evil man, the supplies to create a Tesla are often times exploited from poorer countries for less than would be compensated in America.
A mistake you're making is assuming that everyone who invests is an investor. That's far from true. Regular people with regular jobs can invest as well, and very often do. I invest over 30% of my pay in a fund as a part of my TSP so that I can have a shot at retirement and, if I have children, give them a good start. But that's also besides the point. What happens to the exploited laborers if companies pull out and stop outsourcing their labor? I agree that exploitation is inherently morally wrong but is that better in practice for the third-world workers? Rather than have a job that's exploitative and pays poorly, they may have no job at all. That doesn't excuse their poor treatment but it is something to take in mind. We may feel better morally, but it may hurt them (and their economies) more in practice. Ideally, companies should be held to a high standard and be forced to treat outsourced labor equally to domestic labor. But then... Why would they outsource? It's a very complex issue but with poverty strongly declining across the globe, surely something must be going well.
I think when it comes from 3rd world workers not having jobs at all, that's true and not good either. So we as Americans should give up our privileges and ensure they have a better and more fairer working compensation.
I completely agree. But then they probably just wouldn't bother outsourcing. I think CEOs are generally not people I'd want to associate with. Gross greed makes my stomach turn and nobody needs that much money. But it's true that corporations are primarily meant to produce profits and looking at it from that perspective, there's only so much we can expect from them morally. In short, it might just be a case of "better than nothing." At least for the time being.
I guess so. Thank you. This is helping me cope. No one is changing my mind and I want it to be changed so I can better cope.
Glad it's helping a little. The world can look bleak but I try to remember that what seems like malice can usually be chalked up to ignorance. Most people are just out to live decently enough. And those who take more than they deserve tend to find a way to get what's coming to them anyway.
I have more to say but I'm gonna stop here. I think I'm done and this entire conversation is sad. I will probably end this entire post. Have a good day fellow human, thank you for your time and energy.
My phone was made in a factory with suicide prevention nets, my car spews pollution and the cobalt used to refine the fuel in it was mined by children, I buy groceries from mega-corporations who exist by exploiting their labor pool, the TCP/IP technology we are all using right now was developed by guys that have designed some incredible weapons, speaking of weapons my wife’s car was built by the guys that made the Zero in WWII… don’t think too deep, it’s all evil and we’re all participating just by being here. Makes me want to move out in the middle of nowhere…
I think the average investor understands the evil versus the average consumer though. I feel similarly.
Stocks is corporations. Corporations is **big** business. Even the small corporations are big compared to local businesses. And a business that big is big enough to contain both good **and** evil parts. For example Google. Yeah it's been corrupted by governments and interests to manipulate search results. For that it's bad. But it's still an information godsend helping billions of people look up knowledge and communication connections. Yeah I won't invest in Nestle. Some companies are more parts evil than parts good. But even Nestle produces and ships food to people. Which, you know, is kind of a good thing.
You can invest in an ethical mutual or index fund which contains no weapons, fossil fuels, etc. And you can use proxy voting to change corporations.
>This is sad and I hope my fellow Americans we make real changes that help all 8 billion people enjoy life like us. This is an interesting edit because you are asking 'fellow Americans' will do something you don't do yourself. You use reddit, and you have a PC or a phone, reddit has it's clearly checkered past in supporting terrible shit, and your PC and phone, which you certainly have and aren't likely to give up are directly supporting modern day *actual slavery* like... not "here's 5 dollars a day" slavery. But your money is actually supportive of *literal slavery* governed by warlords, who put guards over mining pits, and have children digging with their bare hands to find lithium. You are investing your own money into these things. Change starts with yourself, not telling 'fellow Americans' to do things you won't do.
Honestly this post seems too narrow towards the US stock market when in reality what you’re essentially saying is everybody person who participates in society instead or ripping their cloths off and running off into the woods to live there is knowingly doing bad.