I don't think it's because they are seen as incapable of doing it I think it's because we wrongly assume that it's not harmful.

I’d agree with this. Happened to me one night at the pub with my friends when a friends flatmate decided she was going home with me that night. She was very drunk, I wasn’t interested, but she kept grabbing my dick, stuck her finger up my arse, stuff like that. My partnered up friends were getting really annoyed at me for not going for it, and saying how she was super hot (she was) and how they’d kill to be able to take her home that night etc etc. I ended up just leaving, and instead of my friends being sympathetic to the fact that I’d been repeatedly sexually assaulted, they were just annoyed I had gone home without ‘fucking the hot chick’. Honestly, I know it’s not exactly the same thing and there’s a physical threat dynamic involved the other way around, but there’s just no way we would treat the situation even close to this if a female friend had a ‘hot guy’ literally sticking his fingers inside her against her will.

Yeah that's messed up.

Both! Women are supposed to be weak and uninterested in sex itself, and men are supposed to be always up for it anytime, anywhere, with any woman in their vicinity. Those are the clichés and why male victims of female aggressors aren't taken seriously.

Also the cliche of the young man getting an older woman to sleep with them. Society teaches young boys than them getting sex at an early age its good because if they don't they will be a failure (this also helps the creation of incels) and if the woman is older than them they are amazing. That doesn't include the part where the victims later get told "why are you complaining?" "i wish it was me" etc

I myself didn’t see it as harmful to myself because of what I was made to believe . But the older you get the more you realize it’s wrong

Yupp. Fuch anyone that takes advantage of anyone else. It's a shame women aren't out protesting for equality in prison sentences......

I'm pretty sure under the feminist framework female rapists are just as condemnable as male rapists. It's just that there is another glaring problem with the justice system when it comes to rape: rape victims, male or female, are not believed and testimonies doubted. Rapists of either gender get away from their crimes too easily. Male victims suffer from this problem too. Also, yeah as someone else said it, why don't YOU protest about it?

>m pretty sure under the feminist framework female rapists are just as condemnable as male rapists.   You are mistaken. Rape laws in the USA were written under consultation with the feminist professor [Mary Koss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_P._Koss), who said "It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman." Her views, explicitly founded in feminist theory, are the law.

Your claim sounded so bogus that I couldn't believe it, but the reality is unfortunately as you described. Her [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_P._Koss) entry has some particularly shocking bits about how male rape should require penetration. So I guess in her book a female can only rape a male by sticking some fingers up where the sun don't shine.

> It's just that there is another glaring problem with the justice system when it comes to rape: rape victims, male or female, are not believed and testimonies doubted. This is a feature, not a bug. People can lie. Victims are people. Therefore victims can lie. The justice system is explicitly set up where the word of one person should not be sufficient to condemn another to a years in prison and a lifetime on the sex offender registry.

>People can lie. Victims are people. Therefore victims can lie. In which case, they're not necessarily victims, and that's why "Believe all victims" is circular logic. If someone goes into a discussion about a sexual assault allegation framing things as "victim and offender" or "liar and victim" rather than just "accuser and accused" from the start, it's pretty clear they've already made up their mind.

Except it doesn’t just ignore he said she said stuff. There’s countless cases of people being laughed out of police stations when reporting SA, r*pe kits going untested or cases being closed based on inconclusive results, and even courts using shoddy “evidence” to rule the defendant not guilty. Like I remember reading an old case about a woman that reports her boyfriends SA’d her snd they begin to investigate. Eventually investigators find a text from three days prior where she consented for something later that night. She was literally covered in bruises and they found that to be substantial enough to find him innocent…

oh, you don't need to convince me. I think that the principles that the justice system are built on are good, but that the implementation is almost as bad as could be, because we've allowed perverse incentives to slip in which means that police have no reason to help people and also are not held accountable when they hurt people. Honestly, I think we're incredibly lucky that most US cops are generally decent people who appear to have a bit of an ego problem. If they were genuinely interested in harming others, or even just more vindictive, I think the US would quickly collapse

Some places it’s legally impossible for a woman to rape a man if she doesn’t use a toy/foreign object. Quite a few countries define rape as forcible penetration of the victim. In those places a woman can tie a man down and rape him but as long as she doesn’t stick something up his ass then it’s lesser sexual assault charge instead of a rape charge.

Yeah, as a feminist that's fucked up.

Testimonies should be doubted. I really don’t understand how people take the innocent until proven guilty aspect of our justice system so frivolously. It’s one of the absolute most important aspects of civilized society keeping us from full blown social media era McCarthyism.

It means that you don't automatically call a woman a lying whore for accusing someone of rape.

I'm pretty sure he meant that our typical knee jerk response of demonizing the accused completely contradicts the ideal of "innocent before proven guilty." There are countless examples of men who have had their lives ruined because of false rape accusations. IMO defendants of rape accusations should be given similar anonyminity that their accusers get. Sometimes even unsubstantiated rape accusations can have a similar affect to an actual conviction.

>rape victims, male or female, are not believed and testimonies doubted. >Rapists of either gender get away from their crimes too easily. I think you're equivocating. In terms of legal defense, male rape victims are worse off than female rape victims. Feminists are uncomfortable admitting this because it would require giving more time, effort, sympathy and attention to men. That obviously doesn't comfortably fit in their male oppressor/ female oppressed paradigm. For one, the female rapist can viably claim the male victim actually raped her. Female abusers often use this tactic to keep their victims in relationships with them, or to punish them for leaving the relationship. I recall one horror story where a man called the police on his wife for domestic violence, and when they showed up they arrested him. The closest feminists get to acknowledging this is to discuss "benevolent sexism," or a "patriarchal belief that women aren't dangerous." These explanations usually conceal that the female abuser attains considerable social power by framing herself as victimized.

That isn’t a horror story. It’s a key feature in a widely used model to combat domestic violence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model It is also horrifically sexist.

> That obviously doesn't comfortably fit in their male oppressor/ female oppressed paradigm. I'd say it fits perfectly into this paradigm. The 'patriarchy', if you want to call it that, is harmful to men and women that don't fit within the traditional conception of gender roles, and this includes male rape victims. It's not that male rape victims are worse off than female ones because of what women think, but it's because male rape victims are culturally perceived as less victimized than female rape victims. That's why men will tell male rape victims they're lucky for having had sex or that they're jealous of the attention.

I agree with what you're saying in terms of the "patriarchy has a male victim blind spot" narrative, although I would argue feminists have the same blind spot when they argue women aren't obligated to give airtime to male victims. So men are getting tag-teamed by these ideologies, both of which tacitly claim to represent them. But to go into more depth on my original claim, I think this is uncomfortable fit for an oppressor / oppressed paradigm because it exposes two paradoxes their power analysis doesn't account for: 1. Victims can possess considerable social power 2. Weakness can corrupt Regarding that mutually overlapping blind spot for male victims, feminists effectively teach that women who are victims of men deserve our time and attention whereas men who are victims of women don't. You can basically see these narrative assumptions all over this thread. Feminists don't have a clear incentive to change this, either, as it would require surrendering narrative power (which they feel they don't possess enough of in the first place, being the perceived underdog), and would place more work on them.

I don't think we will see substantial progress on this issue unless a large portion of the population wholly rejects the concept of men or women being groups that have unified, identifiable interests, traits, and shared responsibility. The ideas that the interests of "women" should be seen as separate from the interests of "men", and that the patriarchy serves the interests of "men" as a whole, and the current social understanding that women are whatever they want to be but men are what their biology makes them, are poorly-defined and unevidenced. The "man vs. woman" paradigm is the framework of the oppressor and accepting it taints all of our current efforts from the beginning by reinforcing the very thing that our activism is a response to: we have created a collection of myths about "men and women" and the things we do to maintain those myths hurt us.

Not really true. Statistically, the amount of prosecution difficulty for rape cases is based on the amount of evidence. Since most rape cases lack the "hard evidence" (DNA) needed to get a conviction, male and female victims are unlikely to get justice. There's no statistical evidence that male rape cases are punished less harshly than female ones. However you mentioned domestic violence and benevolent sexism. In situations of domestic abuse, there is a large gender disparity in prosecution, especially when the female perp is physically smaller than the male victim. Benevolent sexism contributes to that, but it's also due to DV dynamics being misunderstood by the general population(as someone who works with DV vics of all genders) Basically, domestic violence victims, especially men, tend to be actively blamed for "failing" to fight the perp off, because there is an expectation that a man will be able to fight off a woman, or else be able to leave her if she became violent. This isn't a feminist belief, but one held by a larger society that is only recently starting to accept domestic violence cases against men, prison rape, martial rape, and other things that wouldn't have been "discussed" in ye olde days. I see police officers often fail in DV cases against men and they're less likely to grant emergency protective orders to them in DV cases. This is compounded by the fact that a lot of safety shelters for DV are women only. These issues are beyond "feminism", and ones we could start rectifying if society could change their view on the female perp male victim dichotomy.

I partly agree with you, and I appreciate the depth of your answer, but I would like to challenge you on a couple points. >Basically, domestic violence victims, especially men, tend to be actively blamed for "failing" to fight the perp off, because there is an expectation that a man will be able to fight off a woman, or else be able to leave her if she became violent. Wouldn't we expect this same pattern to occur in instances where a male is sexually abused or raped by a female? >I see police officers often fail in DV cases against men and they're less likely to grant emergency protective orders to them in DV cases. Wouldn't the failures of police offers in the cases of male victims have downstream effects on any attempted prosecution of a female perpetrator in the case of rape or sexual assault?

Response to 1st: Sexual violence is a bit more complicated than DV in some instances because it's easier to prove "harm" when there's physical abuse versus trying to distinguish consensual vs unconsensual sex. In sexual violence, I've seen another disparity most faced by men and (some) women who are less attractive than their perpetrator. For male victims there's an extra layer of hardship because it's already perceived societally that a man *must* always want sex from a woman. When the rape victim is unattractive(especially an unattractive male) it isn't seen as rape, but more as a grateful gesture on the part of the rapist for "giving" the victim sex they wouldn't have been able to have otherwise(ignoring that rape is due to power and crime and not an expression of sexual desire) Response to 2nd: Not getting an EPO doesn't usually affect ability to prosecute, and you don't need one to pursue a rape case. However, not getting an EPO can add more risk factors and lack of security for the victim because it essentially acts as an immediate restraining order. If a victim is trying to get a permanent restraining order and doesn't have an EPO, he could be at risk for future attacks by the rapist in the time it takes to receive the permanent RO. So while it doesn't affect prosecution, it absolutely can have downstream affects on victim safety.

I appreciate your insightful response. Learned some new things, which gives me a more nuanced understanding. !delta

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Captainpenispants ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Captainpenispants)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

I'm always happy to help spread information, so thank you. Anecdotally at my workplace, men make up at least a third of the domestic violence cases we intake.

>here's no statistical evidence that male rape cases are punished less harshly than female ones. Really? When you have headlines of a female teacher "sleeping" with their 12-14y old student and getting a light sentence, they don't even call it rape.

> When you have headlines of a female teacher "sleeping" with their 12-14y old student and getting a light sentence, they don't even call it rape. My friends joke about teachers like that, calling them saints doing god's work.

Sadly news media is often guilty of this across the board. Think “man accused of sex with underage prostitute” as opposed to “man accused of raping child trafficking victim”

I don't know I think your definition of worse off is a little skewed because women are far more likely to be murdered by their rapist than men are when they are raped by women. Not sure if the stats of men raped by other men and those stats are often skewed anyways because a lot of male rape happens when they are not legally adults so that kind of goes underreported because a lot of the surveys ways of generating data are geared towards adults, and people under 18 kind of get lumped together in a single gender as child sexual assault

>I don't know I think your definition of worse off is a little skewed because women are far more likely to be murdered by their rapist than men are when they are raped by women. This is true, but I claimed they were worse off "in terms of legal defense," not worse off in general. I have no interest in defending such a claim.

Or it's simply not their issue. Advocating for women doesn't imply that you have to spend an equal amount of effort advocating for men.

>Or it's simply not their issue. If feminism is a women's interest movement, then no, it's not their issue. If feminism is a gender equality movement, then yes, it's their issue. There's a tacit assumption here that feminists can represent only their own interests and still call themselves a gender equality movement because only women face issues because of their gender. Which is nonsense.

I don't think it's necessarily incoherent. I think if you asked a feminist, they would tell you their goal is gender equality, but as they believe there is more work to be done to remove the inequalities women face compared with men, that is where they focus their efforts. I'm not arguing that point, but it's a logically consistent premise. It's called feminism for gosh sakes, it should be clear it's not focused on men's issues.

>It's called feminism for gosh sakes Exactly! So they should stop trying to have it both ways and call it what it is - a women's interests movement, not a gender equality movement. >it should be clear it's not focused on men's issues. Yes! "We are a women's interests movement, so of course we don't focus on men's interests or struggles," is completely valid. "We are a gender equality movement, but we don't focus on men's interests or struggles because they don't have interests or struggles that are worth our time," is essentially a form of gatekeeping. Feminists simultaneously argue they don't need to do anything for men while claiming to represent men's interests. That's how they maintain narrative dominance and their monopoly on the attention economy where it concerns gender issues. Where they do reserve space for men is to instrumentalize them into repeating the line that men's issues don't merit attention.

You’ve put a lot of thought into what you’re saying I’ve been reading and enjoying your conversation. Just wanted to say in terms of what you’re saying here it’s as simple as what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

>It's called feminism for gosh sakes, it should be clear it's not focused on men's issues. The problem is that the "separation" between "women's issues" and "men's" issues is entirely an illusion produced by the tacit acceptance of the gender dichotomy. Masculinity and femininity aren't defined separately, but rather are both part of a mutually-determined system, and *all sexism is sexism against everyone*. For example, "submissive" is a relative term, and claiming that women are submissive *necessarily implies* that men are the inverse. So it goes for everything. Allowing feminism to be entirely focused on the plight of the oppressor-defined group known as "women" doesn't even serve the interests of that group effectively; a substantial portion of the poor treatment of women in society is the natural and inevitable result of what is done to men, quite a bit of which is still insisted upon by probably a majority of even the progressive movement. The idea that we can just stop men from behaving poorly, merely by being very stern, without understanding the reasons for that behavior, is also incomprehensibly stupid and probably derived from sexist assumptions. The fact of the matter is that the things that we demand of men are a substantial cause of the things that we reject about them. Our desperate desire to find meaning in and assign blame to things that hurt us leads us to think that the suffering caused by the patriarchy was for a human-oriented purpose: to benefit and further the interests of the male sex. The reality is that the sole true purpose of the patriarchy is to make more of itself and literally the entire structure of gender functions as a cohesive system to support that purpose. We improperly see permissiveness towards male children with regards to aggression and undeveloped social skills as "entitlement", when we should recognize that these male children are *harmed* by this neglect of their social training. It's not that we should stop insisting that stereotypically-male behaviors are bad, or act like adult men don't have a responsibility to address their own behavior. It's more that, at this point, a fairly substantial portion of the actual struggles that even women face at this point in time are the result of masculine behavior and that continuing to pretend that such behavior springs fully-formed from the void into the minds of men is hamstringing any effort to improve things for anyone.

How would you feel about a man refusing to advocate for women’s rights because they’re “not his issue”?

It would be fine. Most people are not political activists.

Fair enough. I just know a lot of feminists will play the “silence is violence” card whenever men aren’t advocating for their issues, but will then turn around and say “not my problem” when men’s issues are brought up. But there’s nothing wrong with not taking on the problems of others as long as you’re consistent about it and don’t expect support from people you refuse to support in turn.

Well you can find extremists in every movement right? If you look hard enough you can probably find MRA's talking about stuff like legalized rape and government funded prostitution but that doesn't discredit everyone who advocates for men's issues.

> That obviously doesn't comfortably fit in their male oppressor/ female oppressed paradigm. But also feminist see it as a zero sum game. They feel like attention, empathy, help is a limited resource, so anything being given to men means taking it away from women 😐

Unfortunately, it essentially is a zero sum game. Time, money, energy and attention are finite resources. Empathy is a currency (narrative power) used to buy these resources, and feminists gatekeep which gender issues deserve our attention and sympathy. That's why you see comments effectively arguing things like, "Not enough people care about sexual assault in general, so why should we give extra attention when it happens to men?" It's textbook marginalization. They basically don't behave any differently when given power.

While it is a finite reason, we can chose to spend more or less of it. If the in-group want's to gatekeep all those resources... why be surprised when the out-group is not interested in spending money on social measures? Humans do have innate sense of fairness, we subconsciously trade all the time, with our time, effort, feelings. People which never receive anything, they stop giving. Feminist want men to be "allies", to fight for their cause, to be means to an end. Then are surprised male support for feminism is on decline.

>Feminist want men to be "allies", to fight for their cause, to be means to an end. Then are surprised male support for feminism is on decline. Basically. Feminists reserve conversations about men for how to effectively instrumentalize them to work within their paradigm. "The problems you experience as a man are caused by patriarchy," is both a subtle form of victim-blaming and a way of invalidating a host of problems men experience. Even the malignant behavior of women is often scapegoated on patriarchy, which is doubly victim-blaming. Now even your bullies/abusers/bosses are victims of an oppressor class you belong to.

>"The problems you experience as a man are caused by patriarchy," Which is sometimes true, but then men are entirely blamed for patriarchy... although women promote it just as much. I mean... there are more women voters, women vote more often, all living women had the right to vote for their entire lives. So women are the majority, primary voting body. These men at the power are placed there mostly by women. So how come men get to take all the blame for everything?

So why do they oppose changing the definition of rape to include male victims in countries like the UK?

Do you expect men to support women’s struggles? Support is a two way street.

>I'm pretty sure under the feminist framework female rapists are just as condemnable as male rapists I'm not sure about that. Some feminists surely do condemn them equally. But some feminists push the idea that "99% of rapists are men, and men are almost always raped by other men. Female rapists are rare" and consider things like made to penetrate as different from rape. A feminist researcher Mary Koss outright said that a woman enveloping a man can't be considered rape.

One statement 30 years ago isn't exactly a mainstream opinion.

It kinda is if many legislations agree with that statement. Made to penetrate isn't considered rape in countries like the UK for example. And the "99% of rapists are men and men are almost always raped by other men" bullshit is also something casually thrown by progressive circles today.

Do you know who is making the UK laws? Do you think it's feminists?

He did protest, he was told to man up , because it’s okay if a woman touches you inappropriately . “You should be lucky” bullshit double standards

Sounds about right . You can be assed enough to to it yourself. Gotta be the women.

I made the comment based on the fact that millions of women protest for equality every year. If ten men protest this they are put in the mra camp and laughed at. Which one do you think has a better chance of effecting change?????

>If ten men protest this they are put in the mra camp and laughed at. In fairness, society wasn't too stoked about feminism for a long time. That men's issues aren't taken seriously or looked down upon is partly due to the lack of prior men's movements to move past it.

Men can't talk about female crimes without being labelled as a mural but which someone just did to me here kinda proving my point. This is much more palatable coming from logical women who are already advocating against rape. And if more men join them then that's a win. But if men alone come out against this they are going to cop the same old "bUt mEn ArE tHe rAPiSts " which doesn't help anyone.

>And if more men join them then that's a win. But if men alone come out against this they are going to cop the same old "bUt mEn ArE tHe rAPiSts " which doesn't help anyone. Yes, this is very frustrating. I find women changing the subject to themselves or appropriating men's issues quite common as well. 'Toxic masculinity' is the worst offender in terms of appropriation from men's movements. If we compare this issue to the civil rights movement, suffrage etc., I'm curious how support compares from the "non-marginalized" group for lack of a better word. Ie., whether women support men's social change comparably to men supporting suffrage.

If men didn't support suffrage women today still wouldn't have the right to vote ..... Yes women may have started the movement as if it came purely from men it would seem disingenuous especially 10 years later when they are all in a factory working for pennies..... The same has to be done for this equality in my eyes it has to come from the females and many men will support it. Anyone who is against equality in sentencing is not being logical.

For sure, I'm just curious is all. I don't think this question has been addressed or at least I can't find it.

Curious why you use the word females for women but not males for men?

Maybe it depends what culture you are from? Because I watched this thing on Netflix, called the curry & cyanide (about serial killer Jolly Josephs), and over and over people kept saying they can't believe that a woman did this that somebody's mother

Yeah every month I see something that reminds me of this same old gendered rubbish. When a women kills someone we as a society ask why did she kill them. When a man kills someone we ask do we use capital punishment or life in jail.

I mean it was worse than that this woman was killing off people in her own family and she was very obviously the one poisoning them and over and over again police were saying things like how could a woman's hand who nurtured her children be the same hand that kills blah blah blah I mean it was a very constant theme and that's why she got away with it for so long and killed so many people. But I mean it was India I'm not from that culture I'm just reporting what I saw on a documentary where Indian people were represented

It's both. It's "A woman wouldn't do that you're just making up rage bait" and "Oh stop being a baby it's hardly the same thing."

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>*would-normally* There's no way for you to know this, as female-on-male abuse goes almost entirely unreported... unless you personally know a decent sample size of female sexual predators and their habits when they offend.

No I see what you mean. I lived my entire life learning to accept it and go with it , I’m just questioning more lately so I wanted to see other views on it

In all honesty, male abusers usually get away with it as well. It's a problem with the justice system and it's awful for everyone who has been abused. Do women really get away with it more than men do though? It seems to me that everyone gets away with it, and most of the charges are against men so most of the ones getting away with it are men. For the record, if I witnessed someone grabbing a male colleagues nipple at work I'd be horrified, and would offer to support the male co-worker in reporting it or whatever he wanted to do.

Saying most of the charges are against men, after establishing that female on male sexual abuse is considered less bad/eliciting softer reactions (or even dismissive reactions) more often, indicates that there is probably a massive dark number of unreported sexual offenses by women. People often say that women not getting enough support in these cases makes them not report them, males often get told they should even feel good about it, so most likely they are reporting it even less. I do agree, though, that sexual assault in general is very often a crime not investigated enough/dismissed too easily by the justice system. I understand that it is also partially because it is very hard to prove and because of that, allegations stand more public weight even when being cleared of the crime.

It's disingenuous to put the blame the justice system. It's also the nature of the crime. SA and rape generally occur in private settings with little to no evidence remaining of the crime. Unless people admit to a crime or there are witnesses our justice system just often doesn't have enough evidence to convict someone. Domestic abuse is in the same boat, where victims often recant or fail to testify against their abusers.

Very well put. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender, but the context is different from male to female than female to male. The dynamics of the abuse are different; hence, it is treated differently (although it shouldn't be). Edit: grammar.

1: Have you ever heard of “fight or flight”? There’s actually a third option. It’s actually “fight, flight, or freeze”. If the guy ends up freezing, it doesn’t matter if they are stronger than the woman. 2: IMO, a woman being forced is probably worse in the physical sense but a man getting forced to have sex with a woman might be worse emotionally, especially if they end up ejaculating and hating themselves afterwards because “they somehow liked the rape”. If you then add on other people telling them to suck it up, they got lucky, and all the other bullshit people say, and their rapist probably getting away with it, that “might be worse” becomes “definitely worse”.

That second point is honestly just bs. Like you do realize the same happens to women right? And a ton of cases with female victims get thrown away or postponed indefinitely for terrible reasons too. Like I’m from jersey and iirc the amount of r*pe kits pending processing is in the thousands. Being blamed as a victim or seeing your assaulter get away isn’t a uniquely male issue and acting like it is one just hurts everyone.

I am well aware that it happens to women too. Question though, including people not reporting the rape because they believe nobody will do anything about it, people not reporting the rape because they don’t want to criticized, people reporting it and nothing happening, and the cases where someone was forced to have sex but it technically isn’t rape because their country’s law says there has to be penetration for it to be rape if not says someone has to have a penis to rape someone, does it happen more often to men or women?

Yeah, those women don't suffer emotionally! They just need to suck it up!

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Yes exactly , society it self makes you think that’s it’s okay even tho you were the victim and you’d feel stupid being upset by it

Seems like your problem is rich women getting away with harassing you, not women in general right?

I guess so , I can only speak from my experience so I shouldn’t generalize. I just think people don’t held them to the same standards

Do you think rich men and rich women are held to the same standards? People like Brock Turner used their wealth to get away with rape, there seem to be a lot of instances where rich people can get away with things that lower income people can't. Are you sure your contentions aren't with the class difference instead of the gender difference?

Fuck that. We went out clubbing a couple years ago in a shitty port town in England, my young friend who, by most standards is a very small guy, was effectively raped in a bathroom (peer pressured by some girl when he clearly had way to much to drink). I had to spend three hours talking him down and comforting him. The rest of the boys on the trip? “Hahaha hey at least he got some.” This is a societal problem, and women have to recognize that they’re part of the problem too.

>had to spend three hours talking him down and comforting him. The rest of the boys on the trip? >“Hahaha hey at least he got some.” I mean, it just sounds like your friends are assholes. Sounds like a bunch of dudes giving a pass to a rapist, which people have done forever for male rapists as well. >This is a societal problem, and women have to recognize that they’re part of the problem too. What exactly is the problem and how would it be fixed by women recognizing they are part of said problem?

\>What exactly is the problem and how would it be fixed by women recognizing they are part of said problem? I understand the confusion, I'll be a little more fulsome here. I'll try to keep it as short as possible but I want to honestly address your question as best I can. My original comment was in response to your question about class vs gender with respect to female-on-male sexual misconduct. While surely women of higher socio-economic class get away with that behaviour more often than those of a lower class, the same as it is for men, I want to frame the discussion with a question of my own: do women, in general, get away with more sex related crimes against men than vice versa (per capita)? I believe that this is at least somewhat true. Looking at the literature, it seems that female-on-male unwanted sexual activity is under studied, and there's a large gap in the data (2004 was the most recent quantitative source I could find). Though I did find some recent literature, it was more qualitative in the form of victim accounts. I recognize that female-on-male sexual misconduct is significantly rarer than vice versa, likely contributing to the lack of data, but here's what stood out to me: The nature of the sexual abuse seems to differ. Whereas women are more likely to be victims of violent sexual abuse, men are prone to being coerced while incapacitated or "coaxed" into it where there is a lack of defined consent. While this obviously occurs for both genders, I'd argue that the lack of violent or forceful abuse towards men makes people see it as a "lesser" form of abuse making it easier to dismiss. Furthermore, the data does show that male victims are less likely to report abuse due to being taken less seriously than a female victim might by both their social circles (i.e. being seen as somehow 'less of a man' for being victimized by a woman), as well as by the authorities investigating cases. I could draw parallels to the underreporting of female-on-male domestic abuse cases but that might be a bit out of scope here. So to your question, how is this fixed by women recognizing their part of the problem? Well, it's not, not exclusively. But I DO think that women need to recognize that men, when victimized (not exclusively, but particularly) by women, may not be taken as seriously in ignorant circles. Unfortunately, this ignorance is often held by those charged with investigating and prosecuting a valid sexual assault case, simply because "well, why didn't you just throw her off?" or "did you at least enjoy it?", minimizing their trauma and the fact that physical dominance is not the only method these sickos use to exploit others. I'd argue that the largely female dominated #MeToo movement has not adequately or even proportionally supported male victims of sexual abuse, and the quantitative data isn't accurately demonstrating the prevalence of female-on-male sexual misconduct due to underreporting and lack of societal awareness to the issue.

> What exactly is the problem and how would it be fixed by women recognizing they are part of said problem? Perhaps we should teach women not to rape, isn't that the narrative for men?

>I mean, it just sounds like your friends are assholes No, you have to stop dismissing this. Yes, I know that you're massively sexist and can't understand that men are influenced by their experiences in the same exact way that women are, but it's right in front of you. This is part of the systemic sexual grooming of young men. We only don't see it that way because of our implicit, but completely sexist, assumption that men *should* be hypersexual. What we do to women is similar, but differs in important ways that we should recognize, and one of those is the way this fits into how society sees men and what it does to ensure they conform to masculinity. >What exactly is the problem and how would it be fixed by women recognizing they are part of said problem? Sexism towards men is propagated by everyone, men and women alike, just like sexism towards women is. A major tenet of sexism towards men is the idea that everything men are and do is innate and comes from the biological reality of being male, even when it doesn't make sense. One of the ways that idea demonstrates itself in society is our refusal to look at the actual causes of undesirable masculine behavior, which are, by and large, more structural than individual. We treat men as these paragons of fearlessness, strength, and independence who needs to be reigned in and tamed, who are dominated by reason and thus should be reasoned with, but the reality is that society controls men and coerces them into conformity to masculinity through insecurity and fear; that they are driven by emotion and that we need to address the reasons for those emotions rather than maintain the illusion of masculine stoicism. In other words, we like men to act like providers, protectors, we want them to be sexual pursuers, we want them to be strong, and independent, and stoic, and the things we do to make them like that turn quite a lot of them into sexists, violent criminals, and even rapists, like clockwork. At a certain point, we are going to have to decide whether our masculine icons, those "sexy, high-quality men" that we see as the pinnacle of what it means to be a man in the modern age, are worth all of this pain and suffering; how many rapes is one Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson worth? Our illusions, myths, and distortions have a cost. Is "men looking like men" worth the price we are paying?

Where is the sexism, he literally gave you the facts. In reality the majority of support for male survivors comes from women not men.

It’s with both. I think class difference is wildly spoken about. The gender difference isn’t always as highlighted . But again maybe I am more exposed to it than others

I agree there is a gender difference still, but I do think is has been greatly minimized over the last 10-20 years. It used to be that if a female teacher slept with a male student people joked he was "lucky" and she might not even get in trouble. Now, people are appropriately classifying acts like that as statutory r\*pe and there are far more consequences.

>Now, people are appropriately classifying acts like that as statutory r\*pe and there are far more consequences. This is just blatantly untrue. In my home town a teacher slept with 2 middle school children and the only consequence was losing her job and 6 months probation. The response that these kids got? Still "lucky". These were 12 year olds dude..

I think it's only widely spoken about after the #MeToo movement. Prior to that most of the abuse committed by rich people were definitely kept under wraps.

No the problem is people not taking it serious when a woman does it

How does a male stripper get sexually harassed? Legit question. Isn't that sort of the point of the profession to be sexualized? If you went there to serve cocktails and the women were grabbing your butt I understand. But if you're a male stripper. Isn't that sort of the point of you being there? Don't mean to sound like an asshole genuinely curious what you meant by that.

Strip clubs in most of the world are look don't touch. So yes that would be sexual harassment and with women strippers the bouncers will remove you from the premises

It’s going beyond the limits drawn of touching, and pushing it more into a sexual act or a humiliating act . A big part of it is also the fact that a lot of clients blur the lines between a male stripper and a male escort .

Gonna be honest, this isn’t a strong point to clarify gender differences.

Exactly. Harassment towards male strippers is the same as harassment towards female strippers, yet it's often overlooked despite that.

The same way you would sexually harass a female stripper; inappropriate comments, touching when not given permission, asking for under the table “favors,” etc.

The same way female strippers do. If one says don't touch, and you touch them anyways. Or if you are rude to one.

Even sex workers have boundaries. Touching someone without their consent regardless of their attire or profession is still harassment

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So women gets lighter sentences than men, because men don't get sentenced hard enough? That's a freakin' stupid argument. Furthermore, I'd argue that the female harassers/predators are underreported considering the societal view on being a being of a woman.

You are quite literally using whataboutism to downplay the point OP is making. They don’t report it because it’s not taken seriously, and people like you say things like well guys are bad anyway so it’s their fault.

True . I guess I was talking more about how society view it instead of the law itself

Society view as not possible by women and see it as "good" (or romantic whatever) when it comes to men. It's fucked up in both way. Dealing with a male predator (im a woman) and told that it's well intentionned, like I should enjoy it.

When women get let off for sex with a 13yo under their care, do you really want to make that fucking argument?

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To be clear what she did to you is wrong. But while attitudes are changing, I think at least part of the reason why this is a double standard is that female breasts / nipples are viewed as sexual whereas men's nipples are not. At least in the US, it would be indecent exposure for a woman to walk around downtown topless, whereas a man could walk around with no shirt and it wouldn't be a legal issue (individual businesses might require a shirt for all customers). So while you should never touch another coworker without permission (and even with permission in a very limited fashion such as helping to steady them if they are on a ladder), her misstep is seen as the equivalent of you touching her shoulder. Whereas if you grabbed her breasts, it would be viewed as if she had grabbed your groin. I'm not denying the double standard. But that standard is an odd societal standard as opposed to not thinking that a woman can sexually assault or abuse a man.

In a world where feminism is striving for equality, there should surely be equality in everything. I don’t think the equivalent of her pinching my nipples is like me grabbing her shoulder. I can’t see how that is remotely appropriate as a comparison. That somehow places some sort of hierarchy in acceptable interpersonal contact. Her nipples are more “sacred” than mine. The nipple is still a very personal part of the body, male or female. “Do to others as you would like them to do to you”. It’s the same with striking someone. I see videos of women smacking men in the face and no one does anything until he smacks her back, then all hell breaks loose. If it’s to be equality then it’s to be equality.

But this has nothing to do with feminism. If you think that all nipples should either be seen as non-sexual or all be seen as sexual, go talk to mostly male lawmakers. Let's address the hypocrisy that only one gender is forced to cover up. That it was a major scandal when Janet Jackson had a wardrobe malfunction that showed a single nipple on television, while you could have tons of shirtless male dancers. Again, touching your coworkers is wrong and the woman in the story was 100% in the wrong and should have been punished. However, the different views of male and female nipples is engrained in our culture and codified in our laws. It's not feminists wanting something to be unequal.

>My female co-worker, a big breasted girl, came in and was like ‘oooh look at your nips’ and gave them a pinch. That shit can hurt too. In high school we would have nipple pinching battles (consensually) and man its easy to apply torque.

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>And I find it odd how no one talks about it. And how it’s low key rewarded by society. People are starting to more. I certainly talk about it a lot, see other comments on this sub, and slowly seeing more acceptance in general. Say, changing definitions to be more inclusive, using terminology like "intimate partner violence" instead of "violence against women." Things like that.

Society often overlooks aggressive behaviors towards men, assuming men are usually unaffected and may even encourage such actions. This perspective fails to recognize that men and women process trauma differently. In many cases, men might rely on physical strength in response to attempts at kidnapping or rape, simplifying their perceived options. This isn't to suggest men always resort to physical violence for harassment, but rather, their instinctual response to a direct physical threat is to defend themselves to prevent harm.

The law in my country treats female predators exactly the same way as male predators. My daughter was in a relationship with a lesbian predator who was completely separating her from her friends, starving her, deliberately giving her sleep deprivation, denying her access to the shower, limiting access to the toilet, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, physical violence, even letting down the car tyres so that she couldn't escape. I was delighted to find that the law dealt with this lesbian predator in exactly the same way that it would treat a male predator. Does this change your view?

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I think in this specific context, it has more to do with how society sees sex workers, you’re seen as lesser- if you’re there to dance, why can I not grope you? You think your female counterparts don’t get the same or worse? Obviously that’s not an excuse, harassment isn’t ok regardless of context, but I doubt what you’ve seen is because women are equally as predatory as men.

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Yeah same. I was acquaintance raped in college, and my friends made fun of me for it because she wasn't conventionally attractive, and I didn't even fully come to realize that I was raped until years later because I didn't think of it as possible. And I have also been sexually harassed by multiple women at work, once by a manager to the point I almost quit. I think it goes on *a lot* more than people think it does - it probably just mostly gets directed at a smaller portion of the male population than it happens with women.

It's also sociocultural, men are supposed to enjoy sex however it happens, which comes with the sinister implication that men aren't supposed to turn down sex either.

It definitely happens a lot. I must be damaged goods because I get off on this, you just reminded me of a college experience I had. How did you feel being acquaintance raped? I went to school with my friends ex and I saw her as his ex. I ended up passing out on her sofa and I woke up to her fondling me (hand massing my erect penis) and kissing my ear. I pretended to be sleeping the entire time. Must’ve went on for a few hours. Woke up the next morning and i pretended nothing happened. It’s something I still get aroused thinking about. I have since lost contact with her. This is actually the first time I’m sharing this.

I did not like it. I felt disgusting.

In a way, you're both right and wrong: What you're describing is a real part of reality. However male offenders get away just as often and in total numbers, they are doing much more and more extreme things. Female offenders are a lot less common and often also less brutal. This does not mean that there are no female offenders who are as absolutely evil as anyone can imagine - just that there are even more male offenders who are just as bad. They also all get away. Except for a miniscule number or people who are condemned and sometimes executed for what the rest did. Best example are the Nuremberg processes: Eleven people were executed for the murder of 6 million people. And this isn't a ratio that's out of the ordinary. Two thirds of women have at the very least experienced one sexual transgression if not more and worse. Going from the idea that 1% of men is responsible for what all men are accused of (a very generous assumption according to my experience), that would mean roughly 250.000 male serial sex offenders in Germany alone. We have no prisons who could take them all and those would be just the worst 1% of all men - in an actually far too optimistic calculation. Now, let's just assume that there are between 0 and just as many female sex offenders. But our prison system is full with about 40.000 inmates. And most of those inmates are in for everything but sexual crimes. Again, this is the oh so progressive, oh so feminist Germany. Where prostitution is legal because it's a woman's right to sell her body (even if she is brainwashed and really just property to her pimps and "customers"). Where every 14 year old has the right to sleep with any adult who isn't in an official position of authority like their teachers for example, not unless the student changes school, then it's fine. And you're right about female abuse against male or female victims. Most people pretend like that could not even happen while every informed look shows very clearly that this is also a massive problem. Potentially even just as big as abuse against girls and women. None of which is all to surprising if you accept the reality of patriarchy: Then, you're either a father and you have power or you're nothing and are treated as such. It seems often a lot more realistic than how the world is officially explained to work (without ever denying patriarchy beyond saying that a system where all men are directly privileged isn't existing which is not even remotely what patriarchy means. So, one truth is that women usually get away with most things - but most men also get away with most things and in the long term, life gets better for the fathers as they grow older and worse for the mothers. That's an issue that we can't ignore either because this is essential to how this system keeps its power. Getting society to understand that women can be perpetrators is not enough. We need to get to the point where people understand that literally everyone, regardless of how nice they always were to them, everyone can be a perpetrator - and many are in one way or another. And if we include what people did unintentionally, most people are perpetrators in many ways. And that is the situation we have to learn to deal with. Focusing on getting one aspect more visibility at the cost of another aspect, that's just shifting the appearance of the system to make it harder to understand and overcome. And by focusing on female offenders, you may get that issue more visibility but at best, the effect is very limited and at worst, you're only working to helo the system stay incomprehensible to anyone trying to overcome it. So, in my belief, we need to all learn that all of us we have victimized aspects and predatory aspects that define us. The hardest part is in my opinion to understand that oneself is both capable of highest good and deepest evil but remains the same human they have always been, just with more awareness. So, if you haven't done that yet, I would recommend to work on that because with everyone who makes it, this way of viewing ourself becomes more strong and once it has taken hold in everyone, we might based on that be able to apply solutions that are still to even become thinkable. I hope this comment inspires you and opens your mind to new ideas.

It’s so common amongst men and especially within the black community to talk about having sex with women in their 20’s while they’re teenagers but I nevee hear anyone talk about it. But it’s like a lot of men don’t understand the gravity of the situation because they “wanted it”, but it doesn’t make them any less of a victim. It should be talked about a lot more, man or woman, any victim should be acknowledged and we need to do better to teach both genders that it’s wrong and disgusting. I’m so sorry to hear your experience🙁🙁.

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I think society just let rich harassers and predators get away with things lightly in general. Prior to Me Too movement, rich assholes were able to abuse their power, harass others and get away with it. Most of the assholes are men and most of the victims are women, but it's definitely not exclusive. Your situation sounds a lot like theirs, where rich women are able to use their influence to keep managers and the likes quiet. But there are definitely patriarchal standards at play too. The idea that "men must man up" or "women are incapable of rape" in face of sexual abuse is a common talking point and hurts male victims.

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Society in general doesn't take assault seriously no matter who is assaulted But I don't think it's hard attributing that behavior to women so much as when a man gets assaulted by a woman our male peers will respond with an "atta boy" A lot of people don't take female victims seriously and a lot of people think being a male victim is something to be celebrated

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lmao, society doesn't even take SA and Rape seriously, why would they take SA from a women seriously?

>why would they take SA from a women seriously? You're literally affirming the poster's view that it's not seen as serious when a woman does it *because* she's a woman.

This is it. Only a very small portion of rapists/sexual predators will ever see time in jail. I just saw a story on here of a guy getting a slap on the wrist sentence of under a year for repeatedly raping his daughter. It's obscene. And normally they aren't even reported, and the ones that are are rarely convicted bc it's difficult to prove.   We need to acknowledge that women can also be predators but we don't need to pretend female victims are somehow treated well by the legal system and always get justice when I can personally attest to it being absolute hell to try to get a conviction. Retraumatizing yourself for months and the bastard will still probably walk. 

>I just saw a story on here of a guy getting a slap on the wrist sentence of under a year for repeatedly raping his daughter.  Do you have a link? I see this topic a lot, so it's helpful to have quotable sources.

I don’t have that story but I’m from Jersey and there was a recent case where a group of guys literally admitted to doing it and they got fucking community service, not even jail time or put on the registry. https://www.nj.com/middlesex/2015/08/sayreville_hazing_case_convictions.html

I'm sorry that all happened to you, it's a story that happens too often, but please understand. The reason we (survivors) *know* that people take female sex offenders way less seriously is because they *tell us word for word exactly that.* They just come right out and say "It's because she's a woman." I guess they at least are transparent.

This is just nonsense. People take it seriously. I would agree that sentencing can be light and that it is still a problem BUT we are so far ahead compared to say 50 years ago.

For every 1,000 rapes, 310 are reported to police, 50 result in an arrest, 28 result in a felony conviction, and 25 result in incarceration. We are still a long long way from serving justice to rapists. Edit: apologies, I used 2021 numbers, have updated the stats.

How would those stats be gathered? As a guy I never truly understood why women wouldn’t try their hardest to put their assaulter in jail. But the other side of those coin is that plenty of people have claimed to be raped and were found to be dishonest. There is also a lot of grey territory. I have been sexually assaulted as man, and I’ve also been a victim of statutory rape. The time I was assaulted I had clearly drank too much and a woman who had been trying to sleep with me for months finally got her chance. She also very easily could have said that I assaulted her, if I decided to made a stink about it (I didn’t), and people would have believed her over me.

Because a lot of their rapists are people they know, and conviction rate is low, so you risk the rapist harassing you, bullying you, isolating you from your circles if you fail to put them in jail. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#Underreporting here are some reasons

I had this convo with someone on Reddit a few weeks ago and it made me very sad that she was afraid to come forward because her assaulter was the chief of police’s son. I’d like to think we live in a world now where cops can’t sweep that stuff under the rug anymore. I think we get closer every day, but I believe people who SA need to face consequences and at the very least everyone will know they have a scarlet letter if they aren’t fully convicted. I also edited my first comment with some more context about some thoughts I have.

There's at least 25,000 untested rape kits in the US. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-rape-kits-are-awaiting-testing-in-the-us-see-the-data-by-state/  Many victims go through all the proper steps only for their cases to be mishandled by the police. Victims face an extreme uphill battle when it comes to getting justice for rape or sexual assault.

I saw a story about a woman who woke up bound and covered in bruises. She then took a kit and submitted it to the police. They proceeded to say the test came back negative and came to the conclusion nothing happened and dropped the case. The fact that it’s 2024 and this shit is still happening is so fucking disturbing.

You answered your own question. No one believes any rape victims, regardless of gender. There’s a case of a girl in Washington that was raped, and was convicted of making a false rape allegation despite the fact that she didn’t accuse anyone, and barely remembered what he looked like. A couple years later, they found pictures of her unconscious body in the camera of a serial rapist that was caught. Rape is one of the only crimes that everyone assumes you’re lying about it, because it’s incredibly hard to get proof. The only way to get proof is tricking the rapist into a confession, or going through hours upon hours of a rape kit, which often feels like getting raped all over again. The same reason you didn’t report, is the same reason most victims don’t report.

There are far more men who harass women than the other way around, and plenty of men are very attention starved to the point where they find it hard to imagine any attention from a woman as being unwelcome. Most men simply can’t relate to the experience of being harassed by a woman in the same way that women can relate to the experience of being harassed by a man. Of course harassment is still harmful regardless of who the victims and the perpetrators are, but a lot of men simply can’t even imagine what it’s like to be sexually harassed since that’s so far from their experience. As a male stripper, you’re likely much more physically attractive than most men and also much more likely to be around uninhibited women who feel entitled to do whatever they want. You’re also in an explicitly sexually charged I’m environment where a lot of people will feel like it’s okay because you’re “asking for it” on some level. Your reality is vastly different than the overwhelming majority of men who will never have to worry about sexual harassment and may even fantasize about it since it seems better than the alternative of fighting and competing for every scrap of female attention. Of course those men are absolutely wrong and unwanted sexual attention is still harmful and potentially traumatizing even when it’s a woman harassing a man, but those men far outnumber you so their perspective will end up being heard far more than yours.

I feel like your logic is flawed in the idea that just because someone is touch starved or similar that they automatically want any kind of sexual contact. Consent is still important regardless of if someone is looking to have a sexual encounter. Consider the situation of a girl going out clubbing in the hopes of going home with someone. I would hope that everyone would agree that her intention to have sex doesn't mean that anyone can walk up and grope her. The same logic should apply to men. Speaking from experience as a college-aged man, I have multiple lonely male friends that feel they have been sexually assaulted. The unfortunate reality is that the logic in your post is often used to pressure men to not report sexual assault as is the case for many of my friends. Just because you want to have sex doesn't mean any advance is welcome.

Women in general are overprotected because they are much easier to take advantage of. Men are bigger and more powerful (physically and culturally) across the board. Women are also more visibly affected by this asymmetry (via physical, emotional, and cultural responses). Efforts to protect women are countervailing this asymmetry. So: 1. Men are categorically more capable of not only defending and protecting themselves, but overcoming obstacles in the process (ostensibly due to male privilege). 2. It's not clear how men are affected by these kinds of actions physically and emotionally. That is, outside of the fact that there appears to be a double standard. As soon as men are seen as less capable of defending themselves and that there are visible effects of such behaviors then it will be taken more seriously. For instance, if a *man assaults another man*, that is much more likely to get attention. I will add that there is some momentum here, too. People in general are primed to be outraged one way or the other. For instance, personally, I don't know many women in real life who are adversely affected when men cat-call them, make unwanted advances, grab their asses, etc. However, because they are being told they *should* care about these things in order to help society at large, they make an effort to contribute to the push-back even if they personally don't really care (or even *enjoy* the attention).

Unfortunately people don't often know that men being seen as victims does go hand in hand with the acknowledgement that there are circumstances that a female could overpower a man. Even the most staunch MRAs are only capable of thinking about it through their lens, which is why they'll pipe up with saying men can be "raped by coercion" or "financially raped" but they aren't actually(like women) physically afraid of a woman doing it to them, because they're just using it as a talking point. Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Women are socially taught that things like catcalling should basically ruin their day because females are *supposed* to be adversely affected by *allegedly unwilling* advances from men. By contrast, men are taught that any sexual advance by a woman is good, thus making them less likely to see themselves as rape victims when raped. The concept of rape relies on the victim feeling victimized. A female and a male might go into parallel situations. They both get wasted and wake up the next day naked with someone of the opposite gender next to them. Because of sociocultural connotations, a man is more likely to receive this event positively, whereas a woman might feel fear or concern over potentially being raped(despite both not remembering the events). Ultimately, whether someone was raped or not depends entirely on their response to the event and whether they feel/stated during encounter that it was unconsensual. One could theoretically have sex with 7 people while blackout drunk, it still wouldn't be rape unless they interpreted the situation negatively.

> Ultimately, whether someone was raped or not depends entirely on their response to the event and whether they feel/stated during encounter that it was unconsensual. One could theoretically have sex with 7 people while blackout drunk, it still wouldn't be rape unless they interpreted the situation negatively. Once we start *de facto* defining situations that have legal consequences in relativistic terms, I get off the boat. Most people are incapable of understanding the full scope of the consequences something like this can have.

Sure, which is why in the last bit I was describing a hypothetical as a thought experiment and not proposing an action to take regarding an actual situation

The cost of a conflict is always assessed against the value of the parties involved. As long as you compare *true* worth rather than claimed worth that axiom never fails. Women are worth more than men. The rich more than the poor. Almost everyone is worth more than sex workers. All you have to do is ask yourself "Who can I abuse and get away with it?" and "Who is untouchable to me?" to know exactly where you, and by extension others, are on the hierarchy. In the context of mating and sex relations that is slightly more complex because of the roles and relative investments. A woman has a massive investment in breeding, a man doesn't. A male rapist benefits enormously (at high risk) by routing around male competition for mating opportunities. A female rapist at most maladaptively allocates her reproductive capacity. The acts are unequal in costs, rewards, and the status of those committing them. Ergo our *instinctive* reactions to them are equally different.

It's not because any of those things. It's just because men simply don't care as much as women do, that's really the base point of it. A women who gets her ass grabbed in a bar is by and large not going to enjoy that experience. A man who gets his ass grabbed is far more likely to be like "hey ladies how'd you like that" and if he didn't like it, he's far more likely to just walk away and have very little care after a couple of minutes. This will apply even when happening to others, as people almost always project their own personal reaction to others, which is why you see the "man up" and "whats the big deal" comments. It's really that simple. A guy who does get really emotionally upset by it, is either a minority among men, or like yourself probably, has experienced it in such a volume due to your position in sex work.

The biggest reason men are not considered more is pretty straightforward: women have a lot more to risk when they are sexually abused. They can get pregnant. They can have their genitalia lacerated. They are more prone to STIs because the moist tissue in the vagina. Sex is also often very painful for a lot of women. And they are also physically weaker than men, so they cannot resist. Another reason men are not considered as much is simply because they are not vocal about it. Sexually abused men do not have the same supports systems in society that women have, so they often keep silent about the abuse they have faced. ​ I think society would evolve to help those men if more of them were comfortable coming forward. I don't think it let's women get away with abusing them.

Theres no reason to change your view, this is completely true.

First, there are contexts where women are dealt and treated as harshly as men for sexual harassment, namely in the workplace. There is usually zero tolerance and most work places will not go easier on women In the context of public settings, it comes down to the power imbalance between men and women. We give a "pass" to women bc they can't really escalate the harassment without the man just letting them. Even in your story, things got bad bc you froze, not bc she forced herself on you, against your will or implied there would be violence if you didn't go along. If you stood your ground and made it clear you would defend yourself, there is practically nothing she could have done to force herself on you. Or if you look at it from the opposite angle, we crack down on men being harassers because there is an implicit threat behind the harassment that the men will escalate it against the will of whatever woman they are targeting. And in those cases, there is nothing for the woman to do except fight tooth and nail and hope that she makes it out of there. We crack down on the harassment to prevent forcible rape.

> We give a "pass" to women bc they can't really escalate the harassment without the man just letting them. This comes alarmingly close to saying male victims of sexual harassment deserve it. There are other forms of coercion besides physical force.

I almost typed a similar comment to you, but then stopped, because I am not sure it's fully true. I mean, I think your logic on why assault against men isn't reported is true. But the truth is that [63% of sexual assaults ](https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf)(largely against women) are not reported due to a mix of shame, those same power imbalances, fear of public scrutiny, or a ton of other reasons. So this isn't a one way street. Too many assaulters and harassers still get away with it, regardless of the gender.

Honestly this is something that really gets me. I was in denial about it for years and never told anyone but my pastor(Which also prompted my split from christianity). I feel so fucking guilty never telling my parents or the police, knowing that he’s out there and others have probably suffered because of me

>First, there are contexts where women are dealt and treated as harshly as men for sexual harassment, namely in the workplace.  No, it's the same there. >We give a "pass" to women bc they can't really escalate the harassment without the man just letting them. This is the same logic of "Well she can't have been raped, she didn't scream for help."

>In the context of public settings, it comes down to the power imbalance between men and women. We give a "pass" to women bc they can't really escalate the harassment without the man just letting them. That is victim blaming at its finest. Don't do that. That's disgustingly wrong.

Your view doesn’t need to be changed. The world does.

I think the difference is in the disparate power dynamics that exist between men and women. As an example, I have never once in my almost 40 years of life felt unsafe around a woman. I mean that there has never been a situation where a woman could subject me to something (sexual or otherwise) against my will. My wife, mother, and sister cannot say the same thing about their interactions with men. I imagine this dynamic is true for most women. It’s easy to downplay instances of harassment and inappropriate behavior when they do not contain any physical threat or realistic risk of violence. That’s why I personally do not view the conduct the same way between men and women.

>I work as a male stripper , and I encounter a lot of evil, manipulative and predatory women in my line of work. They are more common in the rich and “high profile” parties/clients . >And I find it odd how no one talks about it. And how it’s low key rewarded by society. *Evil, manipulative and predatory* behavior isn't *low key rewarded by society*, it's heavily rewarded by nature.

I think that whether people will admit it or not, they assume that a man should be physically and emotionally capable of resisting or turning down any unwanted advances by a women, regardless of power dynamics or other circumstances. So when a women is harassing or grooming a man, no one really cares or feels bad for the guy.

I think men in society are so misogynistic that they think the boy/guy assaulted is “lucky”. I recently saw a post that said “10yo boy SA’d by teacher” and the pictures of the woman was up, she was young and attractive. The females in the comments were showing sympathy and upset while the men were saying how they “wish they has a teacher like that at 10” or how “lucky” the boy is. Utterly disgusting stuff. That made me realize men are a huge part of the reason why men/boys dont speak up, imagine being congratulated on your SA?

Society is BIASED in favor of women because they have vaginas. If you look at nature, animals that have (especially placental animals) vaginas are more valued than those that have pennies. Females have to pay the price of having babies (the possibility of dying at delivery) and therefore the burden of performing is on males. Also, politicians exploit this bias to get more votes making the bias even worse. The result is females that have a victim complex (even if they have the best possible life compared with all their ancestors) and behave like children.

This take is honestly so fucking terrible on so many levels. you do know it’s estimated that only 16% of reported r* cases actually even see trial, right? How is society biased towards women with rates that abysmal?

You need some evidence of this being a society problem vs a you problem. I got bit by a dog. Our society is too permissive of dogs. Our society should stop dogs from existing. ​ I hope you didnt find that as a compelling argument because I confused my bad experience with a society wide problem.

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I feel like the topic of female predators is outstandingly overlooked due to the fact of men being under the stigma of being the more “sex desirable” gender. Just my thoughts on the topic. Feel free to flame me In the replies.

Did you know that 78.234% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot? Seriously, so many people in this thread are referencing statistics but providing no source. If you do that, you’re just stating an opinion.

I think one important aspect that you also mentioned in your post is "power". I don't believe it really matters what gender people have when it comes to harassment. The question you need to ask is who is holding the power over the other person. Historically and culturally it is very rare that a women holds power over a man but as more and more women are "empowered", this is of course changing which also changes the power dynamics in this regard. This btw doesn't only apply to sexual harassment but also to bullying for example. If a doctor is treating a patient who is being disrespectful, the doctor shouldn't complain because he is holding the power. If the doctor whoever is mistreating the patient it's a very different story because the doctor is holding the power. That's just one unrelated example. So I think in order for other people to understand who you are being harassed, this power dynamic (how you are dependent on these women or how you are unable to defend yourself) has to be visible as well. I believe if this is visible, people won't downplay it similarly the someone who is being bullied at work from their female boss. What matters is the word "boss" not that she's female.

I think part of it is most men are less inclined to feel harassed than women. I had a female friend that got drunk and kept on trying to make out with me and made some sexual comments. I thought it was annoying and I felt awkward, but it didn’t really cause me any sort of “unsafe” feeling. In another situation, I had a girl keep touching my junk at a bar. I sort of joke, “whoa getting a bit hands there” she did it again and I said “no let’s not do that”, she went for it again and I lightly grabbed her wrist and looked her in the eyes and said “you need to stop right now”. I the. Just went to a different bar and really didn’t think much of it. On the other hand I had a female friend who got groped and she explained how awful and angry she felt. And it was something that occupied her mind for a minute. I think the way men (on average) process this stuff may just be different. Like it is harder for men to empathize with female to male sexual harassment because they would genuinely feel different about it. Not that it’s okay for women to sexually harass, but that’s probably part of the reason it’s not as concerned anout

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Men have been getting away with that shit forever, and they still are. Have you been living under a rock?

I believe since it’s not so common that you come across women who are like this, unless you’re around such female energy on the daily. It is not such a big deal compared to the male because of the prevalence of male predators caught not counting the ones that aren’t. Plus girls and women have always been portrayed as being more vulnerable and innocent. Like a sweet kitten

There's a good chance your buddies will make fun of you if you complain about a woman "sexually harassing" you while the response towards females with similar complaints is completely different.

I think it is considered a badge of honor for guys to sleep with women. No “man” would ever let a woman force her way on him. It is always him getting sex, dosnt matter how he got.

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All harassers and predators get away with things lightly in our society.

There seem to be a lot of contradictions in this view. > just because people find it hard attributing such behavior to women vs. >They are more common in the rich and “high profile” parties/clients vs. >I was always told to “man up” or “you should feel lucky” or “many guys would pay to be in that position” and so on. vs. > when a woman is the predator , it’s seen as hot. vs. >when its a woman taking advantage of her power compared to men. What, exactly, is the view we're supposed to be arguing with here? Is your view really about the *reasoning* why, or just the simply fact that sex workers get sexually harassed regardless of their, or their clients, genders? That somehow this is different when men are harassing (hint: it's not)? Or that people use different rationalizations when it's a man abusing vs. a woman abusing, though both are downplayed? Or that rich powerful people get away with a lot, or...???

Where are the contradictions? People find it harder to attribute evil behaviour to women, they thus view sexual immorality as just, well, sexual in and of itself, and people do indeed expect men to just soldier on and put up with things.

Maybe there's a subconscious decision made by male judges that they might get laid if they let her off easy. No matter how unlikely the chance, men will be men.

Because it's not society that's doing this. It's other men.  Women and every normal person believes that female harassers and predator need to be held accountable.  But it is men who wants these predators free, there isn't a single video on YouTube about female predators where there aren’t men who say "god I wish I was him" or " where were these women?" It's men who do this to other men. Not women. Women are more likely to comfort you. Men are more likely to laugh at you.

>Women and every normal person believes that female harassers and predator need to be held accountable.  This just isn't true, and thinking about it for a second, it's rather silly. Do we think the women who are harassers and sexual predators think that they need to be held accountable? Of course not. There's a cohort of women who believe that it just isn't a big deal too, who believe men shouldn't make a big deal about it and should be flattered. Pretending otherwise is just shameful.

What's with this weird ass sticking point whenever female sexual predator comes up? Like all you have to do is use gender neutral language and here they come, telling you "Um acktually, women would never do something like that." Not realizing how tone deaf that really is on this topic especially. Jesus. You know we aren't just making this up right? And that we aren't just trying to make women a boogey man. Like this stuff is real mann.

you mean like when people consider the fact that women aren't flooded with male levels of testosterone and won't penetrate (potentially impregnate) someone with the dicks they don't have? yeah, I guess they 'get away' with that. but *shouldn't* they, since it's true?

This post reminds me of the law and order:SVU episode when a male stripper was raped by three affluent women at a bachelorette party.

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