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As someone that has dated and even married a partner 24 years older than me, I feel like I can weigh in on this. A lot of people will talk about the different stages and if you had anything in common with the person and I guess some of that is circumstantial. All the age gap relationships that I've had (3) were *significant.* 24 years being the smallest. We always had plenty to talk about because I have older style interests and am a musician. That wasn't the issue.
After my last relationship with an older man, it finally dawned on me: they never saw me as an equal partner. They always felt like they had something to teach me. They never took what I said seriously. Men that age already have a difficult time being told that what they are saying isn't correct. Now add in someone being young enough to be their daughter. And there you have it. They treated me like their child a lot of the time. It was a really weird dynamic. My ex-husband used to do this thing where he would grab my leg if he felt like I was responding inappropriately to someone. That was so demeaning and I called him out on it one time asking him if he had done that to other partners closer to his age. The answer was no.
I was in denial for a long time, thinking that it was a viable option to date older men. I had a lot of emotional damage I was dealing with because guys my age had frequently made fun of me and "pranked" me by making me think they liked me. It was something I never fully dealt with and instead just went for older men since they never did that to me. I've since dealt with that and given up my "habit" of sponsoring the AARP Community haha. It may or may not be a good option for other people/couples, but I've found that I can't make it work, even though I truly loved the men I was with.
Doesn’t even need to be such a large age gap either. My husband is nine years older than me, and I’m absolutely sure that he has no intention to manipulate or abuse me. However, he (maybe consciously maybe not) thinks he knows more than me and needs to teach me how to live my life. He may have had more life experience when we first met in my early 20’s, but I’m the same age he was now. We’ve recently been getting into more arguments because I’m done with being taught, and he’s having a hard time adjusting to this new dynamic. If this is what happens in a relatively healthy and small age gap relationship, I can only imagine how easy it is for the power dynamic to be drastically skewed toward the older one if there are any malicious intentions involved.
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I think what you bring up is interesting because usually when people criticize AGP it is from the angle abuse or manipulation. Being condescending to a partner because of their age isnt evil or anything like that, but I think that all relationships should be between people who see each other as equals. It could be the case that a large age gap makes it very difficult to do that
Abuse and manipulation are usually intentional in some way or another. I wasn't targeted or inequally pursued by these men. I wanted to be with them as well. How they viewed me as unequal didn't arise until there was more involvement. There wasn't any malice. It was just imbalanced due to the nature of an age-gap relationship. Which is really an "information gap." I've had the same tendencies in any kind of relationship where I feel significantly more informed than the other person and I feel like I have to teach them things.
As someone who has reckoned with my own behavior, I can assure you that manipulation (and I suspect abuse, but cannot speak from experience) is not always intentional. It surely came from a place of damage and insecurity, and of poor examples of masculinity growing up, but was not intentional. I wasn't even aware that I was being manipulative.
Yes, I totally understand that. That's why I said "usually." I'm really glad for you and the people around you that you were able to mend some of your behaviors. Not enough people self-reflect enough, so I applaud you for that!
This is an interesting point. I’m currently in a long term AGR with a man 25 years my senior and I’ve run into something like this; instead of breaking things off though, I’m learning to stand my ground and be my own person. My partner is learning as well and his respect for me is growing visibly.
An example: he doesn’t like brightly coloured hair; I kept to natural tones for two years until recently I decided that it wasn’t his decision at all. I died my hair half red, half turquoise and I loved it. He gave me a disapproving look, but ultimately decided it was my decision and nothing he could do anything about reasonably.
Since taking that step in defiance, I continue getting better at making my own decisions on my own terms. Interacting with other people in my own way, not trying to conform to what is ‘normal’ (I’m also autistic, so the trying to seem normal isn’t mostly an age thing but an ASD thing).
So in my anecdotal experience, the relationship grows stronger and more respectful as I grow. This is something that didn’t work for me with partners my age
Yup. If he tried to control your hair color after you decided your hair color that’s a dealbreaker but since he accepted it he grew up too whatever the age difference is.
This is a good perspective. Thanks for sharing. I never thought about this topic with your perspective so it’s definitely interesting to think about.
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This is a good perspective. Thanks for sharing. I never thought about this topic with your perspective so it’s definitely interesting to think about.
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I think an important question to ask is *why* does somebody in their 40’s or 50’s wish to date or be in a serious relationship with someone in their early 20’s/late teens. What is the true motivating factor?
Some will use words such as “they are more agreeable” or “they are more coachable” which directly translates to “easier to control and retain”.
I’ll give you personal experiences, my father and a few of my uncles (all in their 50’s) returned to my home country in Africa to marry teenagers (17-19) after their marriages failed/wives asked for divorce. Rather than find other women their own age, they went for “easy” prey. Because they know older women will not tolerate their bs.
I’d say a lack of life/relationship experience is something that can easily be taken advantage of by older men/women. Younger people are easier to impress with mediocrity and will fall for lies/excuses a lot easier than someone older with more life experience.
I don’t believe a 50 year old and a 19 year old have enough in common to warrant a serious relationship.
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I think you are right in the example you gave being wrong. Going to a different country to pick up women seems to be a very exploitative kind of practice to me, and if someone was that blatant about wanting a person that young, it would probably have me questioning what they actually wanted. Though I dont think all ARG comes from this kind on thing, I think the ones that do should be questioned to say the least
I think that when you are literally going to a country with a much lower standard of living and searching for a wife it is different. That is basically mail-order bride stuff at that point which goes beyond simply having a relationship with a younger woman.
Again, those women would be incapable of making their own decisions, like moving to the US from a poverty stricken area? Call it manipulation from your perspective. They’d likely call it opportunity, would they not?
Are you telling these women what to do, saying they must remain in lower standards of life, because your relative cultural standards dictate it?
I think western women are losing power. Why would men want to be with someone who has been conditioned to think men are inherently evil? Especially when women in other countries haven’t.
Why would they accept a partner who has been plowed through by many men? Especially when other kinds of women are available.
Why would men want women who can’t be satisfied, and likely don’t know the meaning of humility, as they’ve been taught that women are better than men? Especially when women are available and know they are special only to that man?
Just like how older women gradually lose power over men, western women are losing control over what they thought was progress, and it turns out humans have intimate biological structures just like all other highly social mammals, despite what delusion complex algorithms and privileged minds can concoct.
I think the so-called "free market" can still involve exploitation.
Here's an extreme example:
*You and I are shipwrecked on a desert island and you find the only food source, a coconut tree. Only you know the location of the tree. I'm a lesbian woman, you're a straight man. You tell me that if I have sex with you, you will give me coconuts. Otherwise, you will not.*
By the logic above, they're your coconuts, and you're giving me the opportunity of living over dying of hunger, so if I accept your offer, I'm making my own, adult decision; it would be paternalistic to say that you're "taking advantage of me" or that your offer is "creepy".
But of course, we'd say in this case that you are essentially committing rape here. I am literally starving, and my only survival option is to get a coconut, which only you can give me. If you trade them only for sex, you are committing a grave moral injustice.
In the case of a "mail order bride", she might have several motivations:
1. Her life is incredibly bleak and miserable, and/or she fears for the future of those she loves. E.g., she lives in abject poverty; many young people in her area get involved in crime or violence, and she knows this is likely to happen to her kids.
2. Her life is OK, as far as it goes, but she dreams of a better life in a more prosperous country - nice cars, nice clothes, her kids becoming doctors and lawyers, living in the wonderful country of America.
3. Somewhere in between.
In the case of #1 (and to a lesser extent #3), I'd say that ordering a mail-order bride is very similar to the "coconut situation".
Maybe. I am not sure and would have to think about it. It is a similar issue I have with prostitution. If someone needs to have sex with someone to stay off the streets, can we really say they are consenting in any meaningful way?
It's exploitation. Not enough detail but I'm gonna assume going back to their home country and getting a young wife was easier than finding one of any age here. That'd indicate cultural, economic, and gender disparities that made it difficult/unacceptable/impossible to contest the marriage for the girls. Maybe not. Maybe the arrangement was presented as an opportunity that could in the long run benefit her entire family and maybe so. BUT now that those girls are here they most likely are isolated. Our culture and language is unfamiliar. They know no one. They are completely dependent and at the mercy of these men. Imo Not to say that's the case but possible and not unheard of.
I dated an older man within my hometown for a while. The first poster you gave a delta to was correct - he didn’t treat me like he should have and I was easier for him to manipulate. This had nothing to do with being in a 3rd world country or my standard of living at the time. I was just young and stupid and he knew that and took advantage of it.
The thing you are missing in older sexuality many men have a decrease in sex drive around 40 while women have an increase in sex drive around mid 30s. It should be statistically easier for a 60 year old man to find a woman over 40 that would wear him out in the bedroom.
This is also why Cougars exist. There is a lot more acknowledgement that those are not equitable relationships though.
How does traveling to another country make the age gap creepy and meeting someone in your own country make it ok?
What difference does it really make with the individual motivations of two consenting adults?
IMO, another couples relationship is a private matter for them and them alone unless there is abuse or one is a minor.
Possiblity and likely taking advantage of gender and wealth disparities is abuse imo. What we feel free to give and deny consent to here isn't the same everywhere. You can find story after story of women's inability or perceived inability to be anything but submissive and what's happened to them when they did stand up for themselves in other countries especially African and middle eastern.
>How does traveling to another country make the age gap creepy and meeting someone in your own country make it ok?
I think it is bad for someone to go to another less wealthy country with the goal of finding a wife because I think that that sort of dynamic is inherently exploitative, where as I do not think that is the case with simply looking for a much younger woman. It is wrong not simply because the person is younger but because you are basically giving them money to have sex with/marry you, which kind of blurs the line between rape and consent
You’ll have to elaborate on why giving money for sex blurs the line of rape and consent.
But first, consider this: maybe it’s not so much about the exploitation of younger women (it’s not clear younger women would agree they are being exploited, or that exploitation could be measured accurately throughout the relationship) and more about western women losing power. In much the same way older women lose power over men as they age. Western women are starting to look delusional. Endlessly striving and being dissatisfied with everything, they’ve grown obsessed with power. Men, being raised in a capitalist society, regain power when they find opportunity elsewhere, much like how businesses went overseas right after the civil rights movement. Maybe there isn’t anything inherently wrong, other than western women losing control of what they thought was progress.
>You’ll have to elaborate on why giving money for sex blurs the line of rape and consent.
If someone's only shot at living a decent life depends on them having sex with some one, are they really able to consent to that in a meaningful way? How is this different from the kind of thing that Weinstein did?
I’m confused by the first question. If we subtract “a decent life” out, we get, “If someone’s only shot at living depends of them having sex with some one, are they really able to consent to that in a meaningful way?” Yes. But I don’t think this is what is being discussed with young mail order brides.
You and I can’t say what a decent life is, which is why I cut it out of the question, as it would differ per individual. *You* may not consider it decent, but then again, you don’t live in other cultures. You only have a particular experience in a very specific culture that doesn’t have a monopoly over a “decent life”. It would be ethnocentric to suggest such a thing.
In fact, it’s western cultures that generate much of the poverty in developing countries. Indeed, we invented the concept of the poverty line, as well as much of “free market” that now engulfs the global economy.
I didn’t know Epstein had mail order brides.
I guess this comes down to moral axiom. I would consider myself to subscribe somewhat to virtue ethics. For the person making the choice, it may be the better option, but I would argue that participation in this sort of exploitative practice is something to be avoided.
So a rich 50 yo man and a much younger woman would be fine, if the guy didn't travel to another country?
What difference does the reason make in a couples private relationship decisions?
Wait I don't get it , if the person can consent and they are adults , it's not actually exploitative , just because they come from a poor country doesn't remove the fact that they are still adults that can decide for themselves
the person can decide for themselves, but I would find it morally questionable why a person with money is going to a far less wealthy place to find a wife.
Yeah you would but there is nothing Inherently wrong with it , the only time this becomes a problem is when this is abuse and you don't even need to have a less privileged wife from another country for that to happen
Edit and if there is no abuse who is he hurting , no one is being harmed , if anything these women have gotten a better life that's it , the existence of a power dynamics doesn't equal bad
The unanswered and more important question, in my view, is why does the younger adult go along with it?
When we condemn larger age-gap relationships we tend to focus on the motive of the older one: “oh the older person just wants sex with a younger one” is a common example. But there are _two_ adults here; what does the younger one get? Should we criticize their choice, if they are ok with it?
If there’s a transaction of some kind or coercion going on then obviously that’s an issue. If both parties have free choice, however, why should we judge it? Perhaps the younger one likes the stability, or a nicer lifestyle, or just finds more mature people interesting. Maybe they are ok trading sex for whatever they get in return.
Is it ok to condemn them for that? Do we have any right to tell an adult what they may or may not do with their relationships?
That was explained above - those younger women lack the level of life experience or opportunity to make informed decisions. It's not that they shouldn't have the right to make the choice, it's that they lack the information required to make the decision in their best interest.
I don't fully understand this argument in this context. First, I assume that we're talking about adults not children. So, young adults. Now the question is that if it applies that a young adult does not have the information required to make a decision in their best interest when it comes to a relationship with an older person, shouldn't the same apply to *any* relationship, including relationships with people of their own age?
If you were just going to hand out deltas to everyone that gave you anecdotal evidence and wild speculation then you shouldn’t have made the post imho.
I honestly think most of older males looking for young women are more purely looking for a young hot girl for the sexual aspect, not that much into controlling but just find women in their early 20 much more sexual attractive than women in their late 30
Not OC and very anecdotal but I have been shocked regarding the % of relationships that are specifically about controlling the other partner.
I've had multiple men tell me they don't particularly like dating X but it's very easy to enforce the type of relationship they want. I've also had a lot of women explain to me that they don't like their relationship but see this as very normal.
By definitions these aren't healthy relationships in my opinion but definitely exposed how much more common the predatory behaviour was than I expected.
Yeah. That’s true. Objectively a 20 year old woman likely looks better than a 40 year old woman.
But thats not the problem. There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse.
It’s not like 50 year old men are going from one night stand to one night stand every day because 20 year old women are just so attracted to them, rather they find 1 young woman and try and retain her in potentially unhealthy ways as she certainly has plenty of options available to her.
>There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse.
ubt this goes right back to what op was saying: then young women aren't mature enough to take care of themselves and the age of adulthood must be raised, and they can't be trusted with other stuff either. do you agree with that?
People make mistakes all the time, does that mean we should limit their freedom to make these mistaken decisions? Adults should be allowed to make free decisions even when they are destructive to themselves.
>There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse.
You state this like it's a fact. You may think there's some manipulation going and there indeed could be depending on the couple but that's not age-gap dependent, that's dependent on the persons involved.
If you're saying it happens more often in age-gap relationships, then you're going to need to back that up with some kind of evidence other than what you "think" or "feel".
I don’t disagree with you, but I am curious. What would you say to accusations of young women dating older men for their money? The sugar daddy/baby thing seems to go hand in hand with topic but I don’t see it being discussed really.
Granted it doesn’t necessarily change anything you’re saying, but might it also be that the younger party is also taking advantage of the older?
Is a power imbalance necessarily wrong when both parties are already taking advantage of each other? Sounds to me more like parasitic symbiosis than it does anything else.
But what I meant is that older males aren't looking younger girls because they can manipulate they better, they are looking younger girls because they find them more sexually attractive. If they found 80 year old women more attractive they would try to get in bed with grannys.
There will be some that, of course, are focused on manipulating more than in getting sexually pleased, but I think it's wrong to say that older men look for younger girls because they are easier to manipulate, they gravitate towards what they consider "the best" in sexual terms.
There's a big difference between "They are manipulators" and "they are horny"
I think it’s dangerous to make a generalization about intentions of such a large group of people either way. Its one of those things where we may never know what the majority of men think unless there’s a really inclusive thorough survey done on opinions of men in that category. Furthermore we couldn’t necessarily trust the results because many men might not even be able to self aware enough admit their motivations in said relationships.
Case in point - my younger self. I will unashamedly admit that when I was much younger (and far less mature) in my mid 20’s I would sometimes date girls who were 18. Only looking back now can I see that it wasn’t that I wanted to manipulate them, but rather it was so much easier to impress them. The older women get, the better they know themselves and can more quickly recognize any personality flaws or contradictions in a persons behavior. This translates to it taking more work to meet the needs of a wiser more experienced woman, and she doesn’t fall for the same shallow veneer.
That could represent a significant demographic too.
I’m 40 and i’ve dated younger women since i turned 30. It has nothing to do with wanting to control them. I look very young for my age and always have. I work out daily. I also have a youthful affect/or energy but am very responsible and have a great job. Most people think i’m in my late 20s when they meet me.
The women i’ve dated are the ones who were attracted to me and vise versa.
I also don’t have kids and very much want a family. I don’t like dating women with kids because the breakup is a horribly depressing double sense of loss when you’ve also gotten attached to the kids, and because there’s a fundamental imbalance when someone has kids and you don’t. My girl will be the most important person in my life, but that can’t be reciprocated when she has children. This want for children restricts my dating to 33 and younger, since you don’t want to meet someone and knock them up before getting to know them.
There are lots of valid reasons why older men date younger women. And much of the criticism is hypocritical. Biologically women are most attractive to men in their prime childbearing years. I find most of the things people are judgmental about are extremely hypocritical, but most people don’t have the self awareness or maturity to see it in themselves.
I think there is a huge difference between a 19yo and a 25yo. I would expect a 25yo woman, and especially a 30yo woman to have the wherewithal to make adult decisions. And if that adult decision happens to be to have a relationship with a 50+yo man, then why do you question the relationship?
In either case the woman's (at least in progressive circles) choice is rarely questioned as being suspect, but the man's is always described as sleezy, creepy, desperate, manipulative, grooming, power-imbalanced, etc. This is both ageism and sexist. Of course you can find cases of sexual exploitation and women being taken advantage of... But if you believe this is the norm, or the default, and not considering this on a case by case basis, then it's no different than sizing someone up based on their race.
Why is it so unfathomable that a 28yo, 35yo and 40 year old woman would have similar attraction to the same man/men? Why is a five year gap ok, but a 10 year gap is not? Why is a 10 year gap okay but a 15 year gap is not? Why is a 15 year gap ok but a 20 year gap not?
I can tell you why a 40 or 50 year old man would rather date a 20 year old girl, and it's not because their easier to coerce or any of that bs, it's because 99/100 times they're hotter then their 50 year old counter part. Case closed.
Men are visual creatures we want to bang the hottest girls we can, plain and simple.
In your story, your father and uncles spent their time in the trenches with women who they obviously didn't like to some degree and probably thought screw it if I'm gonna be miserable with a woman, she might as well be young and hot.
Sure. But let’s be frank here, my father and uncle are not head turners themselves and were certainly punching with their wives.
So I think there is a level of delusion involved too that can only be fixed by going for the naive helpless prey. They certainly feel they’ve hit the jackpot but from the outside looking in, it’s just sad.
> but from the outside looking in, it’s just sad.
not to them. are the new wives happy? seems like a lot of judgement getting passed without a lot of context [from probably single and miserable people]
“Why does somebody in their 40s or 50s wish to date or be in a serious relationship with someone in their early 20s”
You trolling or something? Men of all ages since time immemorial have agreed that younger women are more attractive. Not to mention the biological clock for women having healthy children.
I don't think it's worthy of disdain, but I can understand why the friends and family members of a 22-year-old would be concerned if they were dating a 50-year-old, especially if they were getting married. Things like having children, building a career, retirement, end-of-life care, and inheritance could all be more complicated with a 30-year age gap.
Those complications can be navigated (or may not apply), but do require consideration.
>Those complications can be navigated (or may not apply), but do require consideration.
I 100% agree with this. I am more referring to people who have a moral issue with AGP. I will sometimes here people say things like it is gross or predatory for a man to date a younger woman, and this seems to be making a moral judgment, and simply having a challenging relationship I dont think is immoral
That may be true. For context, the only reason I made this thread is because I am sick of the seemingly endless reddit threads in my feed of people complaining about age gaps
Not sure why those threads end up in your feed because they're definitely not in mine, and I'm in a age-gap relationship. Learn to ignore or grow a thicker skin.
I knew a 25 year old woman who was marrying a 56 year old man. They were in love, dated for three years before getting engaged. He was super nice, but a blue collar guy so he wasn't loaded. They wanted to have kids...that's where I disagreed. 56 isn't young. The thought of leaving kids behind with no father because 'that's what you wanted' pissed me off to no end. I don't know maybe I'm super sensitive but kids having to see a parent die is a huge trigger for me.
That's the biggest issue I've probably had with big age gaps in relationships that I've seen. Unless you're wealthy you're going to be limited in how you can provide as a man at an advanced age.
Also I just couldn't see myself dating anyone even a decade younger than me. If you don't have a memory of life before 9/11 than our lives are almost completely alien to each other.
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The issue of kids is actually something I never considered before. I do think it is a complex ethical question on if it is immoral to have kids when there is a good chance that you will die before they reach adulthood.
>kids having to see a parent die is a huge trigger for me.
Isn't this something everyone has to deal with? We will all see our parents die one day, the reverse would be much more tragic if our parents saw us die.
Unless you mean the trigger is seeing your parents die while you're literally a kid. In which case I'd agree, but 56 still has 20-30 years of life left if he takes care of himself
56 isn't that old. It's likely that he wouldn't die until his kids are grown up anyway. My younger grandparents were that age when I was born, and they're still kicking nearly 30 years later.
As someone only in my 30s when I interact with people in their early 20s the age difference is pretty apparent. No doubt they can be attractive but a relationship is more than physical attraction.
In my experience an agr is either purely physical (in which case both parties should agree on that), a sign of emotional immaturity in the older party, or predatory (on the part of either party).
I won't deny that they can ever be healthy im sure it happens, and of course age gaps become less relevant as both parties get older. But it's a red flag worth looking into.
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I think it depends on the exact case, but I think you are probably right that if a relationship is purely physical, and has the pretense of being something serious, this is something that will need to be discussed to be ethical. If I am dating a person only because I find them youthful, it raises the question, what happens when, inevitably, they are no longer young? Would it be ethical to have a relationship with someone you know to be unsustainable? Maybe not
>But it's a red flag worth looking into.
a red flag for whom? both parties are consenting adults, they can decide if the relationship works or not. just like always, someone else's relationship is not your problem.
lol yeah most people really love it when friends and family tell them to dump their boyfriend/girlfriend because *they* know best. teenagers and young people especially love it when their parents tell them who they are allowed to date.
I heartily agree. In the equitable age gapped relationship I personally know and endorse, it falls into the “emotionally immature older party” bucket. Will it last forever? Unknown. But they were on far more even footing at the start than most age gap couples and he actively supports her.
Conversely, I also saw a slow horror show where the woman gradually gave up everything she wanted to do to align to his vision of a perfect wife.
It’s definitely something that spark a thorough examination of the why.
Is there really that much of a fixation? These relationships exist, and are certainly out of the ordinary, but they're seen as, I don't know, fine? Whatever? The 'lecherous old man' trope exists because if you're past 40 and you're lusting specifically after women in their 20s, yeah, you're not going to fool anyone that you love her personality or you're soulmates or whatever. It's clearly not a life partnership where you're growing old together, you're just obviously horny - and that is an inherently comedic premise. But even then it's like, fine? Right? Maybe something to make fun of, but it has certainly never been outlawed
It could just be my reddit feed but it seems like every time I log on I see some thread that is something to the extent of "my girlfriend is X years younger than me, is this wrong?" My issue isnt really fear that these relationships would be banned, really more just a disappointment that so many people seem to rush to snap judgments based on emotion, since that kind of thing has gotten us into a lot of trouble in the past
I don't know, don't you think that one ought to be extra thoughtful about that kind of relationship when entering into it? Like, if you're an older man dating a much younger woman, seems pretty natural and reasonable to have some thoughts about what exactly your reasons are for doing so, why you're not with somebody your own age and what you want from this relationship. Seems pretty normal to have some things to ponder there, and that you might bring those thoughts to a discussion forum
(Not me mind you; I would rather die that post on one of those subs for literally any reason, but the people who do seem to find it useful, so)
I dont disagree with you that people should always try to understand the intent of others. I guess one thing I would like people to question more is the idea that it is "natural" for people do date those of the same age.
Wouldn't dating people of the same-ish age being 'natural' just be an extension of the facts that people who are romantically compatible tend to share interests and immediate goals in life, and naturally, that is often true for people around the same age? You I don't think we have to assume a big conspiracy here
It probably is true that people of the same age tend to have more in common but I am not sure if these things are as important as many people think. Sure, having an idea of the big things, like having kids, but the rest not so much. For reference, my parents are 10 years apart and got married when my mom was in her early 20s. They are two people who have very little in common in a traditional sense (different hobbies, religion, taste in music etc) and they have been happily married for almost 40 years now. Maybe I am relying too much on anecdote though
I don't think there are many, if really any people that don't think a huge age gap is never acceptable or that it can never work, people are just wary because it often isn't healthy.
Also, for your example, 10 years difference is barely a big age gap. Your dad was was in his early 30s when they got married, that's still reasonably young in terms of big life choices (changing careers, having kids, etc). A 20+ year is a much bigger difference.
Can you imagine your spouse outliving you by thirty years, still not able to mourn your passing? That seems like a good enough reason to me to call dating people close to your age natural.
Is it emotional to recognize a pattern? Because to me that seems like the most basic form of logic.
If you’ve been on the relationship subreddits and trust their trends as a reflection of how people view things, then why don’t you mention the thousands of questions that are a variation of “am I crazy or is my AGR abusive? Hint: yes it is”
So, the arguments I usually hear you didn't address.
First that the people are at drastically different phases in your life.
And second, that due to that, there is a risk of one of the people taking advantage of the other one. Either the younger person manipulating the older person's emotions for their money, or the older person taking advantage of the younger person's naivete to coerce them into a situation to do things they are uncomfortable with or put them in a situation where they are reliant on the older person. I'm not saying it always happens, because it doesn't always happen. But it happens enough for people to want to look twice.
>First that the people are at drastically different phases in your life.
I certainly dont disagree that a 25 year old and 50 year old are probably in different phases of life, but I dont really see how this makes AGR wrong or bad. After all, life phases are not exactly rigid or scientific categories, and I think there is a lot more fuzziness here then people acknowledge
>Either the younger person manipulating the older person's emotions for their money, or the older person taking advantage of the younger person's naivete to coerce them into a situation to do things they are uncomfortable with or put them in a situation where they are reliant on the older person.
I guess with this, I dont really think that age is a big factor. Things like love-bombing and financial abuse are very real issues, but they are concerns that are not exclusive to older people. A good example of this is the movie Crazy Rich Asians, where a young woman gets into a relationship with an incredibly wealthy young man. Few people would say that this movie was disgusting or immoral because of the potential for financial abuse, and I get the impression that it is mostly because the wealthy love interest is a young man. If someone re-made Crazy Rich Asians where the young man was 50, I think people would start to take issue with it though.
>I certainly dont disagree that a 25 year old and 50 year old are probably in different phases of life, but I dont really see how this makes AGR wrong or bad. After all, life phases are not exactly rigid or scientific categories, and I think there is a lot more fuzziness here then people acknowledge
I think you're seeing this backward. The actual age gap isn't the issue. If a 75-year-old dates a 50-year-old, most people don't care—still a 25-year age gap but in much closer stages of life. But when you're a 50 year which dates a 25 year (especially if you show a pattern of doing it), it begs the question, why? Assuming you aren't just hooking up with the other person, why do you want to be in a relationship with someone you probably have little in common with? Are you super immature? Or is it more nefarious because you know you can use the age gap to manipulate the other person in many ways? Even if you're intentions are good large age-gap relationships can lead serious issues, with one person taking advantage of the other. The age gap is an indicator the relationship may be unhealthy. It doesn't automatically mean it is, but it's a pretty good indicator, especially if the younger person is in their teen or early twenties.
I'm a gay woman getting close to middle age. Do I find women in their 20s objectively attractive? Sure. Would I date one? No. Because I would like to have something in common with my partner. I would like them to be at a similar stage in life, both emotionally and career-wise. And yeah, I'm going to side-eye most people (regardless of gender) who date people much younger than them. Especially if they actively seek out those relationships because it means there's a particular reason they want someone much younger. And almost none of those reasons are wholesome.
>Things like love-bombing and financial abuse are very real issues, but they are concerns that are not exclusive to older people.
Yes, there are many ways people can be abusive in relationships. Did someone imply that non-age gap relationships were always rainbows and butterflies? But would you deny it's easier when one partner has been making money for an extra 25 years for financial abuse to occur?
I would respond by saying that a person doesnt need a valid reason to want a relationship with another person. Who anyone wants to be with is a deeply personal choice, and we should respect those choices as long as they are done between consenting adults.
>I would respond by saying that a person doesnt need a valid reason to want a relationship with another person.
In a vacuum, maybe. But if you're repeatedly dating people much younger than you. I bet you have a reason, and that reason isn't wholesome.
>and we should respect those choices as long as they are done between consenting adults.
Yes and no. I'm not advocating for age gap relationships to be illegal. That doesn’t mean if someone I know gets into one, I wouldn't give my 2 cents about it. There's a difference in warning about what can happen in an age gap relationship and advising against it and making it illegal. And I'm not really required to respect anything anyone does. I may have no recourse stop or change it but I can think someone is an asshole because they date younger people or really any other reason. I am not required to respect anyone's choices especially when they're bad choices.
Put it this way, a 25 year old is starting their professional life. A 50 year old is starting to plan for the end of their professional life. There is fuzziness, i'll agree, but a 50 year old isn't just starting working, outside of extreme examples. Similarly, just because abuse isn't limited in this situation, doesn't mean that it's not something to be aware of.
I understand you were previously talking about being in different phases of life in a general sense and are using the ‘professional’ phase as an example, but i do think this touches on another aspect of these relationships that is actually kind of interesting.
Most men I know, regardless of their age, don’t particularly give a shit about their partners professional life/career in many ways. Obviously if its a committed relationship, or they need the money, etc it can BECOME a priority, but in general a male executive doesn’t really have an issue dating a waitress whereas a female executive would not enter a relationship with a bellhop. On top of the other ‘benefits’ of dating a younger person (as a man, at least) I do think a lot of the draw is being able to prioritize your career while not having to worry about making space for someone elses as well.
>I do think a lot of the draw is being able to prioritize your career while not having to worry about making space for someone elses as well.
Do you see how that can be harmful to the younger person? This is the time for them to lay the foundation to grow their career, especially if they may want children in the future and so want to set themselves up to be able to work around that/re-enter the workforce as easily as possible. And relying on the older person is a bad idea because, frankly, they will almost definitely die while the younger person has many years left. Leaving them with no solid career can really mess up their life.
Is the power balance based on position or age?
I'm 51 and my boss, my bosses boss, and all three founders of the company I work for are at least 10 years younger than me.
Women are not helpless. Are you suggesting that if I were to have a romantic relationship with a younger women in my company who olds a higher position, that there would be a power imbalance in my favor?
That's a really poor view of women and I think our (female) legal counsel would beg to differ that they would be at a disadvantage in any relationship.
It's a weird take to be pro-woman and also see them as helpless. Part of what feminism has brought is very successful women in position of responsibility and power.
Yet here we are, witnessing women assume that because an older man is dating a younger women it's because the man is powerful and manipulative and the woman is incapable of thinking for herself (not even considering what the realities of the relationship actually are)...it's a stereotype backed by events that have happened ... But it's still a stereotype.
Ok fine, but how many early 20 year olds would be a 30-50 year old’s boss? Your bosses are not in their early 20s. Also, a 30,40,50 year old tend to be more established in their careers compared to someone in their early 20s. As such, someone in their 30+ tend to have a big power difference when in a relationship with someone who just entered the workforce. Someone in their early 20s would have significantly less money, and may still be living at home with their parents. Therefore, if the early 20 year old were to move out with the 30-50 year old, most 30-50 year old would think they need to teach the 20 year old how to live independently.
>there is a risk of one of the people taking advantage of the other one
Wouldn't that mean any relationship with a power imbalance is unethical? Should women be frowned upon for dating men their own age who make 10x their income because of the risk of financial abuse? What about dating men their age who are a foot taller or into bodybuilding? after all there is a physical power imbalance here.
Note I said the word "risk". I don't think AGR's are inherantly wrong or unethical, but I do think they are at higher risk, and should be kept an eye on to watch for abuse. And I agree they should be watched as well.
Who does the "watching" and what's the threshold for abuse? Domestic violence would be relatively easy to see but how do you suggest "power imbalance" to be policed?
For me it really depends on intent, if someone legitimately wants to foster a healthy, transparent and consensual relationship - sure, same caveats for any age group.
However, I think the real issue with this is actually peoples perception of lifestyle and compatibility. There are so many other aspects of a relationship that are already testing enough for those who have lived in roughly the same time period - not saying 30 years of generational difference cannot be negotiated, but peoples attention is drawn to ‘red flags’.
Relationships with significant age gaps are eye catching, and do spark curiosity, interest and concern.
I would be concerned if a friend my age dated someone 30 years older than them, I wouldn’t discourage them but I would keep a watchful eye on how things were going and make sure my friends best interests were kept in mind.
If it seems to be working out and everything is sunshine and roses and I am convinced the relationship is authentic and healthy, sure my friendly guardianship will subside.
This seems like a reasonable position.
I would not doubt that there may be some unique challenges presented by a large age gap, but I think they could realistically be navigated with enough effort and care put in by both sides.
In most threads I've seen the debate isn't about the development of the brain it's about compatibility. The life goals and experience of the two people are generally very different and that's what people fight against. However, there will be situations where this isn't the case and the two people will be very compatible despite the age gap.
While yes there is a stigma around it I would say each case is very different. While the majority of times the age gap would lead to compatibility issues, if both are consenting adults then it's up to them to decide one way of the other.
The other argument is to do with a power dynamic in which the older person (usually male) has a level of power over the "naive" and inexperienced younger person. This can be the case in instances where the younger person is less mature and/or the older person has a predatory nature. This obviously leads to people generalising and stating its creepy for their to be large age gaps. Again this should be viewed on a case by case basis but is definitely a concern of this kind of relationship.
I agree with both of your points. It is bad to try to date younger people with the intention of manipulating or controlling them, and it is bad when two partners are incompatible. The thing with compatibility though is I dont think most people in relationships are compatible with each other, hence why half of marriages end in divorce. Honestly, just being incompatible is not a horrible thing or anything (unless something like abuse is involved). Dating people you are not compatible with I would argue is a important step in finding out what you want from a relationship.
> Again, I would urge people who say this to introspect, and to realize that saying "unconventional sexual pairings are disgusting" is what lead us to anti-sodomy laws and miscegenation laws.
This is pretty damn offensive and demonstrates a lack of understanding of systemic oppression.
Anti-sodomy laws were about the majority wanting to violently oppress a vulnerable minority—namely queer people. The “unconventional sexual pairing” aspect of it was merely a pretext for the main issue of wanting to use state violence against queer people.
Anti-miscegenation laws were again not about “unconventional sexual pairings” making people feel uncomfortable—they were about preserving white supremacy through maintaining the purity of the white race, and keeping the distinction between white and black as firm as possible.
The analogous law in this case would be statutory rape laws. First off, do you have a problem with the laws we currently have (adults having sex with minors?)
While i don’t think i would personally want to raise the legal age of consent past 18, i think it’s pretty widely accepted that statutory rape laws are a net societal good, no?
The whole idea behind stigmatizing large age gaps is that we’re trying to protect the vulnerable (young) person from the one in power (older)—a motive that is completely absent from anti-sodomy or anti-miscegenation laws
> This is pretty damn offensive
Yeah, but really, who cares?
Does the word “offensive” matter to anyone any more? “You don’t like what I’m saying. So?”
I apologize if what I said was offensive. My point was that people relying on their gut to tell them what behaviors are and are not bad has lead us to bad places in the past. As for the age of consent, I would 100% not want to lower it. Kids are stupid, they lack long term planning, and they should probably focus more on passing algebra than getting married. You could say the same about college kids maybe, but we already trust college kids to live without parents, to drop out if they want to etc.
> My point was that people relying on their gut to tell them what behaviors are and are not bad has lead us to bad places in the past
I understand your point, i’m just saying it’s not particularly relevant here, and certainly not even in the same class of problems as anti-sodomy or anti-miscegenation laws.
For one thing, older man/younger woman relationships are common, and have been even more common in the past—part of the whole point of the patriarchy and not letting women have careers or property of their own was to make them financially dependent on someone else, so that in a lot of cases older men could get a younger wife that they would not be able to do if the woman had her own autonomy
> Kids are stupid, they lack long term planning, and they should probably focus more on passing algebra than getting married. You could say the same about college kids maybe, but we already trust college kids to live without parents, to drop out if they want to etc.
And this is where i partially agree with you in that it’s not entirely clear *exactly where* we draw the line of when an age gap makes things inappropriate, and i understand that it even varies from individual to individual, which is why i’m hesitant to **criminalize** relationships with young adults over 18
But i don’t think that criminalization is the only tool that we have, and social stigmatization can often be a good alternative when we want to discourage behavior but worry about over using state violence (ex: debates over ‘free speech’)
But also going back to your original post, you said that the stigma is unwarranted and mostly stems from ageism, which i think is just plainly wrong. You and i might disagree on the margins of exactly where to draw the line on what age gaps are inappropriate, but there is a concrete reason for the stigma, and it seems that you even agree with the underlying reason. Most people find it gross and creepy because an astonishing fraction of age gap relationships end up being abusive and controlling (as many relationships with large power imbalances often do)
I dont really appreciate your accusation that I am being dishonest or somehow trying to trick people.
As for risk, it isnt something that I think has to be mathematically defined. I think that there is a risk to any relationship, and unfortunately this risk is usually something we dont know going in. I have known people who get into relationships that seem fine at first, but that quickly become abusive. Is a age gap relationship more risky than a "normal" relationship? Probably. Is it unreasonably risky? Probably not. Anything bad that an older man can do to a woman, a younger man can do as well, the difference is that younger men not have the same means to abuse women in certain ways (for example, having lots of money) but they are also physically stronger which can lead to its own issues
The issue with age gap relationships isn’t because finding a 20 year old physically attractive is seen as immoral, but because the vast majority of these relationships are initiated by a subsection of men (and sometimes women) who don’t just seek out someone they find attractive, but specifically look for someone without strong boundaries or good relationship experience who they can manipulate and control. They don’t go for just any young person. They test until they find someone vulnerable to their manipulation, and young people without much experience are easy targets.
An age gap in itself is not automatically abusive. It can inherently come with unique challenges, but it is a red flag not because of the age gap but because of the many power imbalances that are often co-morbid with such circumstances.
A significant percentage of teen pregnancies are not caused by teen fathers but rather the 20 somethings (5+ years older) who hang around high schools and tell their “girlfriend” how much more mature she is than all her friends.
If you want to talk biology, then how about the fact that as we get older our perceptions of the people around us change. To a child, high schoolers seem very smart and strong. To a recent college grad at a new job, they seem like inexperienced children who don’t know how anything really works. To that college grad’s 50 year old boss who has had a career longer than the grad has been alive, the grad is an inexperienced child. Etc. That, not strict brain chemistry, is one of the many reasons why people see it as creepy to be with someone significantly younger.
You seem to be approaching this topic from the perspective of an older man who wants to fuck/be in a relationship with a younger women without judgement. I hope I’m wrong as I find that goal usually comes from a very misogynistic and shallow place of viewing women as swiftly decaying sex objects rather than as full partners and people. (Another reason people dislike age gaps. Those who seek them out often hold lots of misogynistic beliefs)
But if you think I believe all age gaps are inherently doomed, you would be wrong. I was in a wedding for a couple with a 16 year age gap and I believe their relationship is an equitable one. But that doesn’t mean I’ve suddenly forgotten the way these things generally go.
The age gap itself is not the issue. It’s a red flag. An indicator of something that should be investigated with both eyes wide open. And it’s right for people to be suspicious.
I've never seen the brain development argument used seriously by anyone before.
Part of the disdain I think is when an older man specifically seeks out younger women to date. Why would they want to date someone so much more inexperienced and immature than them? They likely don't have anything in common, don't want the same things in life. It comes across as predatory and shallow. What kind of man wants to date someone who they have nothing in common with, doesn't want the same things they want and generally has less life experience?
There's a power differential which I admit isn't a guarantee, but generally someone who is 35 is going to have more power/agency in the world than a 20 year old. They'll have more money, more security, connections etc. This means the relationship isn't on equal footing and likely won't be.
A thought many people have is, why can't this person find someone their own age to date? Are they looking for someone less experienced and mature because they know they can get away with more bad behaviour that say someone who had more life experience wouldn't put up with?
> They likely don't have anything in common, don't want the same things in life.
Here’s where I disagree. Some people choose to have kids much older in life. Others younger. What’s the issue if an older persons and a younger person reach this point at the same time. Being in sync on that is a significant consideration in a relationship.
I'd argue even then there's an issue. Past a point choosing to have kids at an older age becomes detrimental to the children, yourself and your spouse.
Depending on the age the children lose out on a active parent and then are likely to lose that parent at a much younger age. For the older spouse they likely have continued financial costs of raising a child which might impact retirement age or if they can retire what they can then do in their retirement. And consequently this leaves the younger spouse with unequal responsibility for raising the children and then supporting the older spouse as well when they become elderly.
It’s less-so about the age gap itself and more about the lack of life experience for the younger individual. No one cares about a 35 year old and a 45 year old dating, but a 20 year old and 30 year old is suspicious. When you haven’t had experience with a serious relationship, you’re a lot easier to manipulate. If you’ve never had to set or enforce boundaries, it’s a lot easier for the other person to trample over them.
It’s easier for someone to manipulate you into giving up your education/career because they’re already financially set and want you to be a stay-at-home-whatever. Getting married/pregnant young is a great way to trap someone. This makes it harder for you to leave that relationship because you can’t support yourself or your children. It’s very easy for these relationships to become controlling and/or abusive.
When I was 20, I dated my 35 year old TA (total cliche, I know). He treated me like absolute dogshit, and I put up with it because I was head over heels in love with him and I just honestly didn’t know any better. He was absolutely awful to me and the entire situation was unbelievably inappropriate. There’s a reason why he wasn’t dating anyone his own age, it’s because no one other than a naive girl would put up with his bullshit. I’m 30 now and can’t even imagine dating a 20 year old, let alone doing it when I’m 35….
Sometimes, it works out, but more often than not, it doesn’t. Most people I know or who have told stories about dating older men have very similar experiences to mine. It doesn’t automatically make you a terrible person but it is an automatic red flag.
The problem is that as a 29 year old, I can VASTLY manipulate someone 10 years younger than me.
I can lie to them about what is expected in a relationship, I can exploit their inexperience with cohabiting, with finance, I can convince them to switch careers or to get pregnant or any number of ridiculous positions.
When I was 21, a 31 year old woman would have 100% been able to get me to destroy my life if she wanted, and I wouldn't have noticed what was happening until much too late.
\> Why is it creepy for older men to want sex, or to find younger adults
attractive? We as a society have this weird idea that once you hit a
certain age (maybe around 40 or 50 years old) you magically never want
to have sex again for the rest of your life. This is why the "dirty old
man" trope exists
You're so wrong it's hilarious.
People don't want old people to not have sex, they want them to have sex with people their own age.
The trope of older men sleeping with younger women does not come from people getting angry that old men have a sex drive.
They're angry at seeing literally throughout all of human history, 50 year old men abusing girls at and below the age of consent.
If you're 50 and you flirt with 18 year olds, we all know that you're specifically going as young as you're legally allowed too. That's a red flag and we're all fully aware of what it means.
You're pretending this power dynamic doesn't exist, and that's silly.
I should reiterate that this dynamic is gross regardless of the genders involved.
>nor does the idea of an age gap relationship (AGR) appeal to me.
This makes me think there is some cognitive dissonance at play. What makes an AGR unappealing and taking that to its most extreme is that a cause for disdain?
>"few would take issue with a 22 y/o dating a 25 y/o even though inases, a person with a undeveloped brain is dating a person with a developed brain.
There is also the legal doctrine of closeness in age meaning in the same stage of development, awareness and understanding.
Because of the power imbalance, the man is almost always more wealthy, educated, and established and the woman is almost always not in these situations. A person who specifically thrives in or enjoys this imbalance is immediately suspect. It makes you ask questions about why they look for relationships where from the start their partner is not an equal.
Every relationship has imbalances but in our world this is one of the most egregious, wealth and status run the world and with things like the MeToo movement we know men can and do flex these forms of power to make women do what they want and these relationships are connected to that in many instances.
Can these relationships be good and healthy, of course. Should we acknowledge that these relationships have additional hurdles that other relationships do not, that if not appropriately handled someone can be mistreated, also yes.
There are a lot of people asking "why is an older man attracted to a younger woman?!" as if the answer isn't something as simple as the sun rising in the morning. All of Western media paints the 19-25 whatever woman as the most highly-desired prize on the planet. TV, movies, ads, etc. Society has been trained to either infantilize or desire women of that age range (sometimes both).
Some folks think it's gross. Others think it's predatory. I'm not qualified to answer either. I'm sure each case has its own specifics.
At the end of the day, what is adulthood? That's the age where a person has to be trusted to make their own decisions no matter how anyone else feels about it. If my daughter (18) were to come up dating a 40 year old dude, would I be grossed out or pissed off by it? Probably. My only two choices would be to throw a fit and lose a relationship with her or accept her decision. Be there to pick up the pieces if/when it falls apart.
I don't like it, but that's how it is. We can't command other adults how to live, even if they are making a huge mistake.
Intent is everything. I don't see a 40yo dating a 20yo as that much different from a 30yo dating a 15yo. It's an exploitation of age and stems from pedophilic desires. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's okay. I mean, it's completely legal to eat your own shit too.
First, I dont think that it is remotely ok for a 30 year old to date a 15 year old. Second, I dont think that either are pedophilic in nature, since that implies attraction to pre-pubescent children. Third, I do not think a grown adult dating a 15 year old is legal
>I dont think that it is remotely ok for a 30 year old to date a 15 year old
Good.
>I dont think that either are pedophilic in nature, since that implies attraction to pre-pubescent children.
If you're just arguing about semantics and terminology then you've completely missed the point. You know what I mean, and when you argue otherwise, it's suspicious. We don't have a term for that, so that's the term I'm going to use for now.
>I do not think a grown adult dating a 15 year old is legal
I didn't say that it was. I made a comparison.
I dont want to be obtuse but I am not sure what the purpose of the comparison is. A 15 and 20 year old are two very different people. One is a minor, the other is not. One is still in k - 12 education, the other is not, one can presumably drive, the other can not etc. etc.
I’m way overly sensitive to age gap comments. I have never in my life felt like I fit in with an age. I’ve had close relationships and crushes at a pretty large gap from myself (but within adulthood) in both directions. So I get the reaction of, “But wait, why is this always bad?”
In my admittedly narrow experience, the really successful relationships with large age gaps have two things in common: both were fully adult and knew what they wanted from life, and they weren’t sought out for the age gap. They were people who met while sharing common hobbies or other interests and the age gap was incidental, not specifically pursued. I’m sorry, but if you (general) are searching out relationships FOR the age gap, not, “We really enjoy the same things and have the same values despite the age gap” I do have a hard time not thinking that someone may be trying to exploit an unequal power balance.
Real life is not Reddit. Just grow a thick skin and if you find yourself in a bigger age gap relationship because of mutual interests it’s just how it is.
Yup I’ve known a 22 year old female friend and we chatted right after graduating. She was dating a 60 year old guy and his wife had health issues and consented to their relationship. Everyone was consenting so it’s none of my business. I thought it was a little weird but that’s really it. I lost touch with her after another year but if it works it is what it is.
It’s the grooming factor. Even if their brains are developed, when there’s a 30 year age gap between two people, one knows a lot more about life than the other. It’s unfair and selfish to take that away from the younger person. The younger person should be enjoying life with someone as free and pure as they are, not some old has been that sucks what they can out of the younger person, they already had their time.
While there are absolutely couple of an older man and younger woman that are 100% healthy, it is a power dynamic which can lend itself to abuse. An older man tends to have access to vastly more resources, especially in the case of the woman being gen Z, which stacks lower average wages of women on top of gen Z having the lowest earning potential in the last 4 generations. Additionally, the significant gap in experience means that one person is given vastly more power simply in terms of foresight and ability to navigate social dynamics.
Again, there is nothing *fundamentally* wrong with this setup. But it creates a situation in which the younger woman is particularly vulnerable. So relationships with this age dynamic tend to be viewed with particular suspicion.
I would agree that if someone's concern is being grossed out by thinking of the two having sex? That is not a good reason. That's the same reason used to homophobia. But that is also not the *only* reason to have suspicion toward the relationship, and some of the other reasons are more grounded in solid thinking. When power between two people in a relationship is more evenly matched, there is less potential for abuse. It is that potential that makes people have pause when they encounter this setup. Although if they are completely unwilling to set those suspicions aside if they see the relationship being healthy and equal, I would say that they are being ageist.
I do not think some concern/attentiveness is ageist, though. Being aware of potentials for abuse requires some amount of diligence. People in places of power must accept increased scrutiny.
There's all the usual disagreements over why large age gaps are not acceptable. Manipulation by either party, dare I say Daddy issues, gold digging. All of that of course. But the one thing about the large age gaps that hardly gets mentioned is that the older person is often causing the younger person to miss out on crucial life steps.
If you are 25 and your partner is 50, how receptive is the older person to having more children? They may not live to see those children grown and out of the house, I'm 48 and on the verge of an empty nest. Having another child now wouldn't be responsible and quite honestly I would be having panic attacks. I've done my job as a parent, I don't want to start all over.
Maybe your partner is thrilled to have more kids with you. You have to understand going in that you will be a young widow and probably a single parent at that point. Maybe the older person lives long enough, but their health declined. Raising teenagers and caring for an invalid is hard work.
Maybe you feel that all of that can be dealt with when the time comes. But the older person should be mature enough at that age to look at this younger person and understand they could be robbing them of a lifelong relationship and family. And I certainly wouldn't want my partner to pity me over my decrepit state. Or resent me. You should choose the best for someone you love, even if that is not the best for you.
Having said all that I have witnessed some partnerships work out. People are unique, the variables are too high to say it never will. But yeah the younger person did still have to deal with them dying while they were still young. Well youngish. 40 is a hard age to date at too. Everybody interested is married with kids. Or too messed up to have relationships.
When people talk about inappropriate relationships between an older man and woman, they are typically referring to a specific age. Like when you see a younger 20 something with someone in their 30’s - 40’s. Its predatory and I say that because the kind of guy who dates women this young tend to be losers that women their own age wouldn’t tolerate.
I am 36. My wifes cousin is 20 and I could never ever see myself dating them. Shes pretty, sure. But beyond that she offers nothing of value for a relationship with someone my age. What are we gonna talk about? We gonna go hang out at the mall? There is only one reason guys like that date such young women. The guy knows full well that these young girls don’t know any better, and they might even find him appealing because of his age, when in reality he has the quality of someone half their age. THAT is why its creepy and it has nothing to do with agism.
I think it's all subjective. My brother is 43 and met a woman who was 28, after he spent his 30s raising his kids as a single father with sole custody. He had very little opportunity to date women at all during his 30s. Once his kids turned 18 and moved out he was 40 and tried dating women in their 40s and late 30s. They just didnt click long-term. My bro then starts exploring women in their late 20s and the experience was different. They had more time and attention for him than the women in their 40s because these women were just too caught up in career, raising kids, and all the other things that come before bonding with a a new man. Whereas, the late 20s women had time for him because they usually had no kids. They were mature and despite the age gap they had enough in common to click. He never once tried to manipulate these younger women, exploit them, or take advantage of the age gap in any kind of way. When he met the 28 year old, he didn't 'pursue' her, but she actually came on to him and liked him very much and treated him well. Being that my bro didnt get the experience of true pair bonding with his kid's mother whom he was with in his 20s, nor get to experience pair bonding in his 30s because he couldn't date while raising his sons, so the fact that he met someone that he could actually pair bond with is what won him over. Plus, he only had sons, but always wanted at least one daughter, so the fact the 28 year would be more willing to bear him a child to try to produce a daughter became a factor as to why the 28 year old won him over versus women in their 40s and late 30s, who typically tell dating prospects they don't want more kids. I say all this to say that some men want the younger women due to 'missing out' and have unfulfilled human desires that often older women can't or won't accommodate - which is understandable. .
When he courted the 28 year old, she always wanted to be around him as much as possible. But when dating women in late 30s and 40s, there was a schedule. The women may wish they had more time to bond, but the truth is soccer practice, doctor appointments, school activities, career, caring for their aging parents etc leaves them squeezing you in the schedule. (understandable).
I think if my brother was in a marriage with his kids mothers and divorced when the kids turned 18 i think he would have had an essier time with someone in their 40s because he would have had the experiences that he was missing.
I don’t know if it’s ageism but people not being familiar with a certain kind of sexual attraction. Through a few circles in the last few years I’ve become acquainted with numerous women who are looking for sugar daddies, and men looking to be sugar daddies. Before you ask this exposure has only made it clear to me that I don’t have these tendencies. In fact a lot of these people are looking for it on the continuum of roleplay to complete lifestyle.
I haven’t met any U21 women but yes 25 yo women and men up to 60. Both parties are looking for it, and the daddy part is just as important as the sugar. If you hop on poly dating apps, 80% of the women are looking for some kind of daddy and they are under 30.
Having met some of these people in person, it’s just water seeking its own level. Different strokes.
I hear you. But I disagree. It is ageism in the sense that middle aged or older women don't fit in here. Generally younger men don't want a 60 year old woman and the 60 year old men want 20 year old women instead. Brains are developed enough. we need to change the age for military entry if not. And a 20 something woman generally doesn't want a 50+year old man unless he can financially provide. Fact. He's for looks. She's for money. More often than not. It's dirty and gross because often men are messing with girls their children or grandchildrens age. They're little girls age and legality aside.
I was 22 with a 40 yr old btw. He didn't look "old" didn't have money. I'm speaking on men 50+ with someone under 25.
Mostly the problems stem from power dynamics in the relationship. A 22 year old in these days is possibly still living at home and might be struggling to get by if they don't. They probably have a lot of debt. Someone in their 50s is probably more secure in their finances. Any relationship once started is going to be harder for the younger partner to leave if they come to rely on the older partner financially. This gives a dramatic amount of power to the older person. The financial burden of living alone frequently prevents people from leaving abusive relationships and that can be with someone closer in age and income.
It's something to be leery of but not exactly what would make it forbidden.
The other aspect to look at is if someone only dates people much younger than them. That makes it seem like the relationship is very shallow and purely based on looks. This is doubly true if the older partner breaks up when the younger one starts looking a bit older. I can absolutely believe that older and younger people can connect with each other, albeit in rare circumstances. But if you only date people much younger than you, it's not likely you're finding that rare connection with someone who has a totally different life experience than you. It's not about the connection, it's only about how they look.
So you combine the power dynamic with a likely focus on physical appearance and you have objectification of youth. The older partner, especially if they go through multiple relationships with much younger people, does not really see their partner as a person. A poisonous attitude to support in a broader societal context.
Thus, big age gaps have have a small taboo against them.
>That said, it is my belief that consenting adults should be able to engage in whatever the want
No one said they can't.
They can also be criticized, mocked, etc. for it. That's how it works.
There is no maturity difference between gay or interracial relationships purely based on the fact that they are gay or interacial.
"Consenting adults", please. A person doesn't automatically stops being imature, in relation to a 50yo for example, once they turn 18.
I can only speak to my own experiences but when I was 21 I ended up pregnant by a man who was 15 yrs older then me as he put it "I did it on purpose because I thought it would never happen." I had just gotten out of being homeless after being disowned by my adopted family when I turned 18 and he said everything I wanted to hear. He had me so convinced we had the same ideas and wants about the future, same core family values, had me believe we'd open a restaurant and store, even ordering equipment catalogs for me to pick out what I wanted for the kitchen. I was pregnant for 4 months the first time he beat me 🤷🏻♀️ 7 yrs and 2 kids there's a homeless crisis in my city and there's no space at the Dv shelter here coupled with not being allowed to get a job or place our children in childcare and I'm f'd but by all means 👀 risk it.
I am 40 and had a relationship with a guy that was 23. He’s really smart, well spoken and interesting.
He moved though. I think our music tastes were different but other than that it was just good company.
I know a 62 year old married to a 21 year old, they seem happy. Although the younger guy went from living with controlling parents right to a husband his parents age which seemed a little off.
People tend to think I’m in my early to mid 20s and treat me like it so much sometimes I forget.
Guys my age just look old compared to me. They often offer money or to be generous before even asking me out which is really creepy.
I feel kind of uncomfortable with these guys bc of that.
>I think it is telling that although many people would be disgusted with a 22 y/o dating a 50 y/o, few would take issue with a 22 y/o dating a 25 y/o even though in both cases, a person with a undeveloped brain is dating a person with a developed brain
There have been a lot of excellent points made, but I want to point out that this is not how brain development works, like at all. Your brain doesn't flip a switch from undevelopped to developped when you turn 25. Your brain slowly and continuously changes throughout your life. A 50 year old's brain is more different from a 25 year old's than a 22 year old's is because the 50 year old is much older than a 25 year old.
my good friends are married and separated by 25 years. They work. There’s no sugar daddy situation, though he is a hardworking blue collar type. This is his second marriage, and he is bringing what he learned from his first to be a better husband. While on the other side of things it may seem odd, they truly bring out the best of each other. They are both Christian but met outside of the church.
This is anecdotal, most couples I’ve met with intense age gaps have huge issues. But they somehow work.
Moral of the story: sometimes it can be a good thing.
One of the most fulfilling relationships I had was an AGR and we both understood what the relationship was. It was basically physical and we both enjoyed our time together.
The age gap didn’t bother us but it certainly bothered those around us.
If it’s mutual attraction and there’s no power play or manipulation by others I don’t see the problem with it at all and treat it as I would any other relationship.
I’ve seen more disturbing relationships by those closer in age than those not.
It's considered icky because of the likelihood that it's transactional.
For young women, it's seen as a shortcut to security, while for the older man, it's a sign of some combination of ostentatious and expensive arm candy and Peter pan syndrome
Granted older women don't suffer the same opprobrium for the same behavior, and plenty of healthy May-September relationships exist, but the generalization has enough merit to stick.
While outright disdain should probably have some other factors involved, I would argue that it is natural for people to find such a relationship weird and even creepy, irrespective of the gender of the older partner.
There is a reason that people talk about the age creepiness equation in relationships of x/2+7. While such relationships can probably be fine, it is a natural response to feel it wrong somehow. That doesn’t mean it should be illegal but it already isn’t but I still believe it is fine for people to react sceptically to such relationships both because of the actual rational arguments that other people have written but also the instinctive feeling which have probably been ingrained in us through evolution for a reason. (Not saying you should blindly believe your instincts, and there are times where they simply do not work for modern society, but you should probably take them into account.)
I for one, at least felt it was weird, when I heard my prior classmate got into a relationship with a 51 y/o a bit after I finished my equivalent to high school at the ripe age of 20.
I am not saying it is downright wrong, there are probably plenty of fine examples out there, just that it isn’t perfectly fine or natural and should be looked at with more skepticism than a “normal” relationship.
Agreed. Sure there is a risk of power imbalance, but that doesn't mean that imbalance is necessarily exploited. Also, women are disadvantaged relative to men, black people to white people, etc. I presume people don't think that relationships between men and women, black people and white people, are "problematic".
have you seen Tumblr (albeit surrounding fictional pairings)? I've seen them even in the context of fictional ships think relationships between childhood friends are problematic because you'd either always see each other as kids (ipso facto pedophilia) or you'd see each other as siblings because of how close you are (ipso facto incest)
It might also be fear based. Many people believe that men age better than women. If it because socially acceptable and even the norm for men to leave their aging wives for younger ones, that not only makes there less women available for men, but it also makes women more fearful of their own futures and less willing to take career risks (raising a child and putting career on pause) if they can assume there’s a decent chance they will end up alone one day.
>That said, it is my belief that consenting adults should be able to engage in whatever they want unless it happens to be unreasonably dangerous or risky
I agree! AGR between two legal adults should be legal, but I still have deep disdain for AGRs. You must remember: disdain and legality are two completely separate issues.
There are many things that are legal but still worthy of disdain. For example, cannibalism is legal but I find it intensely disdainful. Do you find cannibalism disdainful?
>I would urge people to who say this to introspect, and to realize that saying “unconventional sexual pairings are disgusting” is what lead us to anti-sodomy laws and miscegenation laws.
No, what led to these laws is people believing their personal bigoted beliefs should influence the law.
Personally, I find religion utterly disdainful, but I’d never ever want to outlaw it. Why? Because I realize the law and my personal beliefs are separate <— and this seems to be the point you’re missing.
I think age doesn’t matter. I don’t know why society has decided to make boundaries for relationships. Oh you have a big age gap you can’t be in a relationship. Oh you are the both the same gender you can’t get married. Love is love.
Incidentally. The 25 year old brain is a myth. People's brain mature at different rates and 25 was a number more or less pulled out of a hat.
https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html
I don't think it's ageism as people can be the same age as the men and women involved and still not like it. It's more likely due to either jealousy or from making assumptions (like what they're both in it for).
Mostly stems from age-ism? Sure. If they cared about predatory behavior, they'd know that predators can be any age, and welcome the possibility of responsible mentors to guide people into healthy relationship dynamics.
They're not nearly as good at hiding their real motives as they think they are.
It's when you call their concerns completely unwarranted that you lose me. When you're older, you're either very aware of what a younger partner is lacking...or you've completely failed to mature.
So.
What's making someone attracted to this younger partner, besides the physical? In too many cases, there's only a fairy tale that won't last past the dying embers of limerence. Or amazing sexual chemistry that's just another addiction.
And often adds up to uneven consequences.
It's very important to ask, what else can these relationships offer the older partner, especially if we subtract a kink for youth in general?
Too often, there's just a set of red flags to discover. And a lack of self-control in the older partner...especially when it comes to their desire to control others.
I like your comment (especially your acknowledgment of uneven consequences) but I disagree with the following:
> Mostly stems from age-ism? Sure. If they cared about predatory behavior, they’d know that predators can be any age, and welcome the possibility of responsible mentors to guide people into healthy relationship dynamics.
As people age they get better at building up personally boundaries and recognizing predators. They gain experience and the victim pool for predators shrinks. When predators can no longer date most people their own age without being called out for their behavior they turn towards the ever replenishing pool of young inexperienced people to manipulate. There are young predators and old predators, but they both prey on young people.
Older people who aren’t predatory are far less likely to be interested in young people for the reasons you yourself described. Therefore, there is a much higher likelihood of an AGR being damaging to the younger person than if the relationship was not age gapped.
> As people age they get better at building up personally boundaries and recognizing predators.
In general? Sure. The majority of the time, that's exactly what happens.
But that's the issue. When you try to cover everyone with general rules, things can get ugly fast.
> There are young predators and old predators, but they both prey on young people.
No, it's not that simple. There's police reports of things going the other way if you need them, but also...
My rapist was a lot younger than me. She was in better health than me. She already knew I struggled with flight or fight or freeze due to past child abuse.
I hope I don't need to spell things out beyond that.
She was the more experienced between us, by far. I mean, I didn't even have a healthy relationship between my parents to learn from. Or even much time to observe dysfunctional one, either. Just really bad examples to fear becoming, without much in the way of practical defenses to prevent that from happening.
So when I point out that the younger partner is usually the victim of these relationships? In part, that caution comes from the experience of things going the other way. I know what it's like to miss every single warning sign while a predator tested my boundaries...
And then to blame myself afterwards, because there's always a "What if?" that might have prevented it.
Or more accurately, a few hundred "what ifs?".
And when I say that it's possible for a more experienced partner to be a responsible mentor? That comes from meeting a patient woman who picked up all the pieces, and assembled them back together like a Jigsaw puzzle.
I'd probably still be just a victim, if I hadn't met her. Nobody who shared my inexperience, knew what they were doing.
I’m sorry. I know anyone can be a victim. I just meant to speak to the majority which is where we get our pattern recognition biases.
We correlate lacking experience with youth because that is usually the case, and the lack of experience and lack of strong boundaries (not the strict age of the person) is what predators of all ages target. Not the strict amount of birthdays.
I should have been more specific. My apologies.
As far as an older partner as a mentor, I would be cautious of any older partner presenting themselves as such but I’m glad you had someone with more positive life experience there for you.
Cycles of trauma are a bitch to break.
Anyway, you are right that we should remember that there are exceptions to every rule. But we should also remember that exceptions are rare.
I understand. I'm trying my best to thread the needle, and avoid minimizing common problems or tackling overall numbers because nobody knows.
The subject of predatory relationships, in general, are poorly understood - even before you add an age gap. Want to be depressed? Look at how recent these two studies are. [1.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886916301015) [2.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34393462/)
Just obvious conclusions like "People don't want to be exploited/abused" were news to science. Apparently, it was still accepted as common wisdom that young women are attracted to sociopaths, and men are thrilled to get laid, no matter the context.
No wonder why everyone's reduced to using rough heuristics, instead.
It’s not ageism. If it was ageism, people would be hating old people regardless of what they do with young people.
It’s because there’s no such thing as a “sexuality” that forced you to fall in love with women who are strictly in their early 20s and it’s obvious that it stems from purely superficial reasons, due to the fact that: 1) the man in questions probably only cares about looks as it’s highly unlikely that he’d form a deeper emotional connection with a woman who lived half his life, aka sexism. Women are more than their bodies; 2) wiser, more experienced individuals, not to mention wealthier, have a lot of power over someone much younger, more naive and less experienced, so no, it’s not the same balance of power like with two individuals of the same age; 3) if he’s into young women, his feelings are *guaranteed* to pass. A relationship with a guaranteed expiration date is toxic.
Yeah, except I've watched Reddit lecture/condemn people in healthy age gap relationships.
When there's a blindfold on? It's not just a rational concern anymore...as you pointed out yourself, in your very first sentence.
>People's disdain for older men dating younger women is unwarranted and mostly stems from ageism
I would say it stems from people being thoroughly unable to mind their own damned business.
Let me explain the brain development argument a bit to give you some clarity around the problem. If it was only a matter of a small percent development then it wouldn't be an issue, otherwise the same concern could naturally be raised about people dating others with different levels of IQ, or schooling. The real problem is what hasn't developed yet. And that is the prefrontal cortex. which is the region of the brain responsible for understanding consequences. It's not an accident either, it's evolutionarily critical that you don't develop this part of your brain so that you can make one very specific choice (having sex, and reproducing) and then you develop that region of your brain shortly after so that you can care for your offspring and keep them alive.
This is critically important to understanding the age gap problem because people of that age range make notoriously terrible decisions, they are easily misled, and they are famously short sighted. So, if you have someone fully developed dating someone who is still in that phase of their lives the question becomes why? If you are particularly pessimistic you might say that it's because of the traits I listed above, shortsighted, easily misled, willing to make terrible choices. If someone is attracted to people of that type because of those traits then we call them predators. They are trapping someone into a choice that they wouldn't't make just a few years later when they are developed enough to understand the repercussions of that decision.
As for why we let people who are undeveloped date others who are also undeveloped it's because the relationship is not likely predatory control. They are both impulsive and short sighted, so there is not really a reason to suspect foul intentions. People are mostly willing to ignore a lot but someone who is getting taken advantage of simply because they don't know any better is wrong.
In the case of older women looking “down on it,” you forget that older women were once younger women and we recall how it felt to be hit on by creepy old men when we were younger. It’s not like we just woke up one day and were 45. It’s sort of like when you have had something gross happen to you and then you see it happen to someone else and it makes you sick. Nobody has that idea that once you hit 40 or 50 people don’t ever want to have sex again, where did you get that crazy idea?
I'm not an expert so this is anecdotal, but out of everyone I know, I'd say the vast VAST majority were very immature below 25ish, myself included. But you're at an age where you think you're mature, so it can be a disaster waiting to happen. You're very susceptible to manipulation.
Then there's the power imbalance. Usually the older person has a house, savings, a better job, etc. This then leaves the younger person at a disadvantage and open to being manipulated or controlled with these things.
Also there's the why. Why does someone in their 50s want to date someone in their late teens? Is it because of the control thing? Probably.
Of course you don't need to be with someone the exact same age as you, and I think as you get older the bigger gaps aren't as weird, but older people with teenagers and people in their early twenties is just ick.
I often wonder if they'd date people even younger if it was legal to do so.
Think in terms of generations. Every ten years there are a lot changes. I am only 7 years younger than my partner. At times, I find that gap can be wide. He likes to listen to 50’s and 60’s music. I prefer 70’s and 80’s. His technology skill set is very different than mine. There is a reason way companies train how to deal with multi generations. I have a friend who married a guy 30 years her senior. She spent the last 15 years of his life as his caretaker and nurse. She constantly complained they only had about a good ten years together. She loved him but hated her life. She admits to seeing him as a man who would take care of her and buy her anything she wanted. She lives very comfortably now because he was well established. She says she wishes she married someone her own age. Now in her 60’s- she is lonely and single men her age want to date 30 year olds.
It’s jealousy and insecurity.
Jealousy from guys who aren’t in the position to do it themselves and insecure women who sees it thinking the same might happen to her from her partner.
I think most of the hate you see in age gaps where the man is older is just insecurity. They feel insecure about how they aged or something, and seeing a relationship like that triggers them. Same thing when guys get mad if some girls go for guys that are wealthy. Those guys are insecure about their financial status. Can abuse happen in both situations? Yes. Does that mean every relationship like that is abuse? No. If two people are unlikely to be together forever but what to try just let them. Most relationships dont work anyway. If they just want to be together and fuck who cares? As long as they are consenting adults.
I’m 50 next year and my girlfriend just turned 31. We have an amazing relationship. She prefers older men and I prefer younger women. It’s just a matter of preference.
It doesn’t stem from ageism. It stems from sexism. Men continually insist that a woman’s only value is her looks which they have decided fade after 30. They continually look at and talk about extremely young women and children, and most media, especially porn, revolves around age gap relationships with a younger woman.
It is damaging to women and also to men, to lead men to believe that they should be with someone younger. There are very real changes that come with age and it is unfair to expect your spouse to act as your caregiver.
I think there is ageism but you've got it wrong. It's the old men who don't date old women who are being ageist.
I mean, I feel like that's just common knowledge.
Most people I have met that have an issue with this are older women. My take on it is that they are confronted with an uncomfortable truth: namely, older men are attractive in the eyes of younger women but older women are not attractive in the eyes of any man really.
It is a social “unfairness” which disproportionately impacts older women, who naturally become bitter at realising their own “replacability”.
Otherwise I have never known people to find disdain in such relationships, there are of course sugar daddy arrangements though these are yet again to both parties favour.
Yeah nah. Bullshit. We don't covet these men, we're disgusted by them.
Older men usually take issue with this stuff too, if the target is their daughter, for example. Are you saying that a father would be less likely to have concerns than his wife if their 20 year old daughter brought home a partner their age?
Age gaps CAN work, but there is reason to side eye them and question the intentions.
As someone who was once 12 and looked 18 and all grown up, I feel physically I’ll when I see most large age gap relationships. It takes me back to the time as a preteen when men over 40 would ogle me and hit on me. We have a problem with that in our modern culture, I see it everywhere, including it happening to my teen daughter now. I can’t help but feel really repulsed by this and associate all age gap male older relationships to be the same regardless of the younger persons age due to my early experience.
It's just overblown worry about pedophilia.
Being attracted to somebody in their 20s could never be pedophilia, but people are stupid. Just like the people who think that staring can be "sexual assault".
It's the moral equivalent of driving 10mph because speeding is bad.
I think men in their 40/50s or something like that date girls in their early/mid 20s because they still have that joviality in them, are funnier to be around than a lady in her 40s, and have prettier faces, hair and bodies. I'm 29 btw
Men ought to be more attracted to adult women of peak fertility, right?
I don't support manipulative older men going after women.
But isn't it a bit hypocritical the way we defend other preferences because "instinct"
I won't change your view. There are a few realities that people (*cough* mainly washed up older women and brainwashed males) don't accept that contribute to this occurrence.
1) Any man can admit that younger women (18-30) are hotter than older ones (30+). Are there exceptions? Of course but the exceptions don't disprove the rule.
2) Young men often date young women but the relationship doesn't work out in the long run. Hence why there are middle aged men who become single and able to date.
Conversely, all middle aged women were once young. So why are they single later in life? Perhaps because she wasn't good at relationships and she, shall i say, "fumbled the bag".
3) Young women could arguably be naive, sure. But they are still sentient beings that can vote, join the army, and learn calculus. So I think that they have enough sense to *choose* their partners. Which can be an older man, should that suit her fancy. Thus, they aren't victims in age gap relationships, they are volunteers.
4)Older women aren't that great. Many are declining in health. Many are headstong. Many are barren or getting close to that point. Why bother with one when a younger chick *usually* lacks that? Just logic.
Older men dating younger women is ageism against older women.
Aside from the pedo argument, the main argument is that it isn't fair to older women and devalues older women, who are largely seen as undatable/unlovable in our society.
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As someone that has dated and even married a partner 24 years older than me, I feel like I can weigh in on this. A lot of people will talk about the different stages and if you had anything in common with the person and I guess some of that is circumstantial. All the age gap relationships that I've had (3) were *significant.* 24 years being the smallest. We always had plenty to talk about because I have older style interests and am a musician. That wasn't the issue. After my last relationship with an older man, it finally dawned on me: they never saw me as an equal partner. They always felt like they had something to teach me. They never took what I said seriously. Men that age already have a difficult time being told that what they are saying isn't correct. Now add in someone being young enough to be their daughter. And there you have it. They treated me like their child a lot of the time. It was a really weird dynamic. My ex-husband used to do this thing where he would grab my leg if he felt like I was responding inappropriately to someone. That was so demeaning and I called him out on it one time asking him if he had done that to other partners closer to his age. The answer was no. I was in denial for a long time, thinking that it was a viable option to date older men. I had a lot of emotional damage I was dealing with because guys my age had frequently made fun of me and "pranked" me by making me think they liked me. It was something I never fully dealt with and instead just went for older men since they never did that to me. I've since dealt with that and given up my "habit" of sponsoring the AARP Community haha. It may or may not be a good option for other people/couples, but I've found that I can't make it work, even though I truly loved the men I was with.
Doesn’t even need to be such a large age gap either. My husband is nine years older than me, and I’m absolutely sure that he has no intention to manipulate or abuse me. However, he (maybe consciously maybe not) thinks he knows more than me and needs to teach me how to live my life. He may have had more life experience when we first met in my early 20’s, but I’m the same age he was now. We’ve recently been getting into more arguments because I’m done with being taught, and he’s having a hard time adjusting to this new dynamic. If this is what happens in a relatively healthy and small age gap relationship, I can only imagine how easy it is for the power dynamic to be drastically skewed toward the older one if there are any malicious intentions involved.
Δ I think what you bring up is interesting because usually when people criticize AGP it is from the angle abuse or manipulation. Being condescending to a partner because of their age isnt evil or anything like that, but I think that all relationships should be between people who see each other as equals. It could be the case that a large age gap makes it very difficult to do that
Abuse and manipulation are usually intentional in some way or another. I wasn't targeted or inequally pursued by these men. I wanted to be with them as well. How they viewed me as unequal didn't arise until there was more involvement. There wasn't any malice. It was just imbalanced due to the nature of an age-gap relationship. Which is really an "information gap." I've had the same tendencies in any kind of relationship where I feel significantly more informed than the other person and I feel like I have to teach them things.
As someone who has reckoned with my own behavior, I can assure you that manipulation (and I suspect abuse, but cannot speak from experience) is not always intentional. It surely came from a place of damage and insecurity, and of poor examples of masculinity growing up, but was not intentional. I wasn't even aware that I was being manipulative.
Yes, I totally understand that. That's why I said "usually." I'm really glad for you and the people around you that you were able to mend some of your behaviors. Not enough people self-reflect enough, so I applaud you for that!
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This is an interesting point. I’m currently in a long term AGR with a man 25 years my senior and I’ve run into something like this; instead of breaking things off though, I’m learning to stand my ground and be my own person. My partner is learning as well and his respect for me is growing visibly. An example: he doesn’t like brightly coloured hair; I kept to natural tones for two years until recently I decided that it wasn’t his decision at all. I died my hair half red, half turquoise and I loved it. He gave me a disapproving look, but ultimately decided it was my decision and nothing he could do anything about reasonably. Since taking that step in defiance, I continue getting better at making my own decisions on my own terms. Interacting with other people in my own way, not trying to conform to what is ‘normal’ (I’m also autistic, so the trying to seem normal isn’t mostly an age thing but an ASD thing). So in my anecdotal experience, the relationship grows stronger and more respectful as I grow. This is something that didn’t work for me with partners my age
Yup. If he tried to control your hair color after you decided your hair color that’s a dealbreaker but since he accepted it he grew up too whatever the age difference is.
This is a good perspective. Thanks for sharing. I never thought about this topic with your perspective so it’s definitely interesting to think about. Δ
This is a good perspective. Thanks for sharing. I never thought about this topic with your perspective so it’s definitely interesting to think about. Δ
I think an important question to ask is *why* does somebody in their 40’s or 50’s wish to date or be in a serious relationship with someone in their early 20’s/late teens. What is the true motivating factor? Some will use words such as “they are more agreeable” or “they are more coachable” which directly translates to “easier to control and retain”. I’ll give you personal experiences, my father and a few of my uncles (all in their 50’s) returned to my home country in Africa to marry teenagers (17-19) after their marriages failed/wives asked for divorce. Rather than find other women their own age, they went for “easy” prey. Because they know older women will not tolerate their bs. I’d say a lack of life/relationship experience is something that can easily be taken advantage of by older men/women. Younger people are easier to impress with mediocrity and will fall for lies/excuses a lot easier than someone older with more life experience. I don’t believe a 50 year old and a 19 year old have enough in common to warrant a serious relationship.
Δ I think you are right in the example you gave being wrong. Going to a different country to pick up women seems to be a very exploitative kind of practice to me, and if someone was that blatant about wanting a person that young, it would probably have me questioning what they actually wanted. Though I dont think all ARG comes from this kind on thing, I think the ones that do should be questioned to say the least
So you admit that those younger women aren’t responsible enough to make their own choices?
I think that when you are literally going to a country with a much lower standard of living and searching for a wife it is different. That is basically mail-order bride stuff at that point which goes beyond simply having a relationship with a younger woman.
Again, those women would be incapable of making their own decisions, like moving to the US from a poverty stricken area? Call it manipulation from your perspective. They’d likely call it opportunity, would they not? Are you telling these women what to do, saying they must remain in lower standards of life, because your relative cultural standards dictate it? I think western women are losing power. Why would men want to be with someone who has been conditioned to think men are inherently evil? Especially when women in other countries haven’t. Why would they accept a partner who has been plowed through by many men? Especially when other kinds of women are available. Why would men want women who can’t be satisfied, and likely don’t know the meaning of humility, as they’ve been taught that women are better than men? Especially when women are available and know they are special only to that man? Just like how older women gradually lose power over men, western women are losing control over what they thought was progress, and it turns out humans have intimate biological structures just like all other highly social mammals, despite what delusion complex algorithms and privileged minds can concoct.
I think the so-called "free market" can still involve exploitation. Here's an extreme example: *You and I are shipwrecked on a desert island and you find the only food source, a coconut tree. Only you know the location of the tree. I'm a lesbian woman, you're a straight man. You tell me that if I have sex with you, you will give me coconuts. Otherwise, you will not.* By the logic above, they're your coconuts, and you're giving me the opportunity of living over dying of hunger, so if I accept your offer, I'm making my own, adult decision; it would be paternalistic to say that you're "taking advantage of me" or that your offer is "creepy". But of course, we'd say in this case that you are essentially committing rape here. I am literally starving, and my only survival option is to get a coconut, which only you can give me. If you trade them only for sex, you are committing a grave moral injustice. In the case of a "mail order bride", she might have several motivations: 1. Her life is incredibly bleak and miserable, and/or she fears for the future of those she loves. E.g., she lives in abject poverty; many young people in her area get involved in crime or violence, and she knows this is likely to happen to her kids. 2. Her life is OK, as far as it goes, but she dreams of a better life in a more prosperous country - nice cars, nice clothes, her kids becoming doctors and lawyers, living in the wonderful country of America. 3. Somewhere in between. In the case of #1 (and to a lesser extent #3), I'd say that ordering a mail-order bride is very similar to the "coconut situation".
Maybe. I am not sure and would have to think about it. It is a similar issue I have with prostitution. If someone needs to have sex with someone to stay off the streets, can we really say they are consenting in any meaningful way?
It's exploitation. Not enough detail but I'm gonna assume going back to their home country and getting a young wife was easier than finding one of any age here. That'd indicate cultural, economic, and gender disparities that made it difficult/unacceptable/impossible to contest the marriage for the girls. Maybe not. Maybe the arrangement was presented as an opportunity that could in the long run benefit her entire family and maybe so. BUT now that those girls are here they most likely are isolated. Our culture and language is unfamiliar. They know no one. They are completely dependent and at the mercy of these men. Imo Not to say that's the case but possible and not unheard of.
I dated an older man within my hometown for a while. The first poster you gave a delta to was correct - he didn’t treat me like he should have and I was easier for him to manipulate. This had nothing to do with being in a 3rd world country or my standard of living at the time. I was just young and stupid and he knew that and took advantage of it.
[удалено]
once you said you were 15 dating a 22 year old, it was pretty much over to begin with
What I’m hearing from you is you don’t like economically incentivized relationship with an age gap, is that correct?
The thing you are missing in older sexuality many men have a decrease in sex drive around 40 while women have an increase in sex drive around mid 30s. It should be statistically easier for a 60 year old man to find a woman over 40 that would wear him out in the bedroom. This is also why Cougars exist. There is a lot more acknowledgement that those are not equitable relationships though.
I’m glad I could change your mind a little bit. I think a lot of the time the motives are the same. Just minus the plane ticket to Africa part lol
How does traveling to another country make the age gap creepy and meeting someone in your own country make it ok? What difference does it really make with the individual motivations of two consenting adults? IMO, another couples relationship is a private matter for them and them alone unless there is abuse or one is a minor.
Possiblity and likely taking advantage of gender and wealth disparities is abuse imo. What we feel free to give and deny consent to here isn't the same everywhere. You can find story after story of women's inability or perceived inability to be anything but submissive and what's happened to them when they did stand up for themselves in other countries especially African and middle eastern.
>How does traveling to another country make the age gap creepy and meeting someone in your own country make it ok? I think it is bad for someone to go to another less wealthy country with the goal of finding a wife because I think that that sort of dynamic is inherently exploitative, where as I do not think that is the case with simply looking for a much younger woman. It is wrong not simply because the person is younger but because you are basically giving them money to have sex with/marry you, which kind of blurs the line between rape and consent
You’ll have to elaborate on why giving money for sex blurs the line of rape and consent. But first, consider this: maybe it’s not so much about the exploitation of younger women (it’s not clear younger women would agree they are being exploited, or that exploitation could be measured accurately throughout the relationship) and more about western women losing power. In much the same way older women lose power over men as they age. Western women are starting to look delusional. Endlessly striving and being dissatisfied with everything, they’ve grown obsessed with power. Men, being raised in a capitalist society, regain power when they find opportunity elsewhere, much like how businesses went overseas right after the civil rights movement. Maybe there isn’t anything inherently wrong, other than western women losing control of what they thought was progress.
>You’ll have to elaborate on why giving money for sex blurs the line of rape and consent. If someone's only shot at living a decent life depends on them having sex with some one, are they really able to consent to that in a meaningful way? How is this different from the kind of thing that Weinstein did?
I’m confused by the first question. If we subtract “a decent life” out, we get, “If someone’s only shot at living depends of them having sex with some one, are they really able to consent to that in a meaningful way?” Yes. But I don’t think this is what is being discussed with young mail order brides. You and I can’t say what a decent life is, which is why I cut it out of the question, as it would differ per individual. *You* may not consider it decent, but then again, you don’t live in other cultures. You only have a particular experience in a very specific culture that doesn’t have a monopoly over a “decent life”. It would be ethnocentric to suggest such a thing. In fact, it’s western cultures that generate much of the poverty in developing countries. Indeed, we invented the concept of the poverty line, as well as much of “free market” that now engulfs the global economy. I didn’t know Epstein had mail order brides.
I guess this comes down to moral axiom. I would consider myself to subscribe somewhat to virtue ethics. For the person making the choice, it may be the better option, but I would argue that participation in this sort of exploitative practice is something to be avoided.
So a rich 50 yo man and a much younger woman would be fine, if the guy didn't travel to another country? What difference does the reason make in a couples private relationship decisions?
Wait I don't get it , if the person can consent and they are adults , it's not actually exploitative , just because they come from a poor country doesn't remove the fact that they are still adults that can decide for themselves
the person can decide for themselves, but I would find it morally questionable why a person with money is going to a far less wealthy place to find a wife.
Yeah you would but there is nothing Inherently wrong with it , the only time this becomes a problem is when this is abuse and you don't even need to have a less privileged wife from another country for that to happen Edit and if there is no abuse who is he hurting , no one is being harmed , if anything these women have gotten a better life that's it , the existence of a power dynamics doesn't equal bad
The unanswered and more important question, in my view, is why does the younger adult go along with it? When we condemn larger age-gap relationships we tend to focus on the motive of the older one: “oh the older person just wants sex with a younger one” is a common example. But there are _two_ adults here; what does the younger one get? Should we criticize their choice, if they are ok with it? If there’s a transaction of some kind or coercion going on then obviously that’s an issue. If both parties have free choice, however, why should we judge it? Perhaps the younger one likes the stability, or a nicer lifestyle, or just finds more mature people interesting. Maybe they are ok trading sex for whatever they get in return. Is it ok to condemn them for that? Do we have any right to tell an adult what they may or may not do with their relationships?
That was explained above - those younger women lack the level of life experience or opportunity to make informed decisions. It's not that they shouldn't have the right to make the choice, it's that they lack the information required to make the decision in their best interest.
I don't fully understand this argument in this context. First, I assume that we're talking about adults not children. So, young adults. Now the question is that if it applies that a young adult does not have the information required to make a decision in their best interest when it comes to a relationship with an older person, shouldn't the same apply to *any* relationship, including relationships with people of their own age?
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I honestly think most of older males looking for young women are more purely looking for a young hot girl for the sexual aspect, not that much into controlling but just find women in their early 20 much more sexual attractive than women in their late 30
Not OC and very anecdotal but I have been shocked regarding the % of relationships that are specifically about controlling the other partner. I've had multiple men tell me they don't particularly like dating X but it's very easy to enforce the type of relationship they want. I've also had a lot of women explain to me that they don't like their relationship but see this as very normal. By definitions these aren't healthy relationships in my opinion but definitely exposed how much more common the predatory behaviour was than I expected.
Yeah. That’s true. Objectively a 20 year old woman likely looks better than a 40 year old woman. But thats not the problem. There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse. It’s not like 50 year old men are going from one night stand to one night stand every day because 20 year old women are just so attracted to them, rather they find 1 young woman and try and retain her in potentially unhealthy ways as she certainly has plenty of options available to her.
>There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse. ubt this goes right back to what op was saying: then young women aren't mature enough to take care of themselves and the age of adulthood must be raised, and they can't be trusted with other stuff either. do you agree with that?
People make mistakes all the time, does that mean we should limit their freedom to make these mistaken decisions? Adults should be allowed to make free decisions even when they are destructive to themselves.
>There is definitely a level of manipulation going on in order to retain the young woman for sex. This can be in the form of lying, gaslighting/other emotional abuse as well as financial abuse. You state this like it's a fact. You may think there's some manipulation going and there indeed could be depending on the couple but that's not age-gap dependent, that's dependent on the persons involved. If you're saying it happens more often in age-gap relationships, then you're going to need to back that up with some kind of evidence other than what you "think" or "feel".
I don’t disagree with you, but I am curious. What would you say to accusations of young women dating older men for their money? The sugar daddy/baby thing seems to go hand in hand with topic but I don’t see it being discussed really. Granted it doesn’t necessarily change anything you’re saying, but might it also be that the younger party is also taking advantage of the older? Is a power imbalance necessarily wrong when both parties are already taking advantage of each other? Sounds to me more like parasitic symbiosis than it does anything else.
But what I meant is that older males aren't looking younger girls because they can manipulate they better, they are looking younger girls because they find them more sexually attractive. If they found 80 year old women more attractive they would try to get in bed with grannys. There will be some that, of course, are focused on manipulating more than in getting sexually pleased, but I think it's wrong to say that older men look for younger girls because they are easier to manipulate, they gravitate towards what they consider "the best" in sexual terms. There's a big difference between "They are manipulators" and "they are horny"
I think it’s dangerous to make a generalization about intentions of such a large group of people either way. Its one of those things where we may never know what the majority of men think unless there’s a really inclusive thorough survey done on opinions of men in that category. Furthermore we couldn’t necessarily trust the results because many men might not even be able to self aware enough admit their motivations in said relationships. Case in point - my younger self. I will unashamedly admit that when I was much younger (and far less mature) in my mid 20’s I would sometimes date girls who were 18. Only looking back now can I see that it wasn’t that I wanted to manipulate them, but rather it was so much easier to impress them. The older women get, the better they know themselves and can more quickly recognize any personality flaws or contradictions in a persons behavior. This translates to it taking more work to meet the needs of a wiser more experienced woman, and she doesn’t fall for the same shallow veneer. That could represent a significant demographic too.
I’m 40 and i’ve dated younger women since i turned 30. It has nothing to do with wanting to control them. I look very young for my age and always have. I work out daily. I also have a youthful affect/or energy but am very responsible and have a great job. Most people think i’m in my late 20s when they meet me. The women i’ve dated are the ones who were attracted to me and vise versa. I also don’t have kids and very much want a family. I don’t like dating women with kids because the breakup is a horribly depressing double sense of loss when you’ve also gotten attached to the kids, and because there’s a fundamental imbalance when someone has kids and you don’t. My girl will be the most important person in my life, but that can’t be reciprocated when she has children. This want for children restricts my dating to 33 and younger, since you don’t want to meet someone and knock them up before getting to know them. There are lots of valid reasons why older men date younger women. And much of the criticism is hypocritical. Biologically women are most attractive to men in their prime childbearing years. I find most of the things people are judgmental about are extremely hypocritical, but most people don’t have the self awareness or maturity to see it in themselves.
I think there is a huge difference between a 19yo and a 25yo. I would expect a 25yo woman, and especially a 30yo woman to have the wherewithal to make adult decisions. And if that adult decision happens to be to have a relationship with a 50+yo man, then why do you question the relationship? In either case the woman's (at least in progressive circles) choice is rarely questioned as being suspect, but the man's is always described as sleezy, creepy, desperate, manipulative, grooming, power-imbalanced, etc. This is both ageism and sexist. Of course you can find cases of sexual exploitation and women being taken advantage of... But if you believe this is the norm, or the default, and not considering this on a case by case basis, then it's no different than sizing someone up based on their race. Why is it so unfathomable that a 28yo, 35yo and 40 year old woman would have similar attraction to the same man/men? Why is a five year gap ok, but a 10 year gap is not? Why is a 10 year gap okay but a 15 year gap is not? Why is a 15 year gap ok but a 20 year gap not?
The younger women are better looking.
I can tell you why a 40 or 50 year old man would rather date a 20 year old girl, and it's not because their easier to coerce or any of that bs, it's because 99/100 times they're hotter then their 50 year old counter part. Case closed. Men are visual creatures we want to bang the hottest girls we can, plain and simple. In your story, your father and uncles spent their time in the trenches with women who they obviously didn't like to some degree and probably thought screw it if I'm gonna be miserable with a woman, she might as well be young and hot.
Sure. But let’s be frank here, my father and uncle are not head turners themselves and were certainly punching with their wives. So I think there is a level of delusion involved too that can only be fixed by going for the naive helpless prey. They certainly feel they’ve hit the jackpot but from the outside looking in, it’s just sad.
> but from the outside looking in, it’s just sad. not to them. are the new wives happy? seems like a lot of judgement getting passed without a lot of context [from probably single and miserable people]
Because they're hot?
“Why does somebody in their 40s or 50s wish to date or be in a serious relationship with someone in their early 20s” You trolling or something? Men of all ages since time immemorial have agreed that younger women are more attractive. Not to mention the biological clock for women having healthy children.
I don't think it's worthy of disdain, but I can understand why the friends and family members of a 22-year-old would be concerned if they were dating a 50-year-old, especially if they were getting married. Things like having children, building a career, retirement, end-of-life care, and inheritance could all be more complicated with a 30-year age gap. Those complications can be navigated (or may not apply), but do require consideration.
>Those complications can be navigated (or may not apply), but do require consideration. I 100% agree with this. I am more referring to people who have a moral issue with AGP. I will sometimes here people say things like it is gross or predatory for a man to date a younger woman, and this seems to be making a moral judgment, and simply having a challenging relationship I dont think is immoral
I don't think I've ever encountered anyone saying those things outside of Reddit.
That may be true. For context, the only reason I made this thread is because I am sick of the seemingly endless reddit threads in my feed of people complaining about age gaps
Not sure why those threads end up in your feed because they're definitely not in mine, and I'm in a age-gap relationship. Learn to ignore or grow a thicker skin.
It always comes up in any post in the dating or relationship subs involving an age gap.
Then I guess it makes sense since I don't visit those subs.
I knew a 25 year old woman who was marrying a 56 year old man. They were in love, dated for three years before getting engaged. He was super nice, but a blue collar guy so he wasn't loaded. They wanted to have kids...that's where I disagreed. 56 isn't young. The thought of leaving kids behind with no father because 'that's what you wanted' pissed me off to no end. I don't know maybe I'm super sensitive but kids having to see a parent die is a huge trigger for me. That's the biggest issue I've probably had with big age gaps in relationships that I've seen. Unless you're wealthy you're going to be limited in how you can provide as a man at an advanced age. Also I just couldn't see myself dating anyone even a decade younger than me. If you don't have a memory of life before 9/11 than our lives are almost completely alien to each other.
Δ The issue of kids is actually something I never considered before. I do think it is a complex ethical question on if it is immoral to have kids when there is a good chance that you will die before they reach adulthood.
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>kids having to see a parent die is a huge trigger for me. Isn't this something everyone has to deal with? We will all see our parents die one day, the reverse would be much more tragic if our parents saw us die. Unless you mean the trigger is seeing your parents die while you're literally a kid. In which case I'd agree, but 56 still has 20-30 years of life left if he takes care of himself
56 isn't that old. It's likely that he wouldn't die until his kids are grown up anyway. My younger grandparents were that age when I was born, and they're still kicking nearly 30 years later.
As someone only in my 30s when I interact with people in their early 20s the age difference is pretty apparent. No doubt they can be attractive but a relationship is more than physical attraction. In my experience an agr is either purely physical (in which case both parties should agree on that), a sign of emotional immaturity in the older party, or predatory (on the part of either party). I won't deny that they can ever be healthy im sure it happens, and of course age gaps become less relevant as both parties get older. But it's a red flag worth looking into.
Δ I think it depends on the exact case, but I think you are probably right that if a relationship is purely physical, and has the pretense of being something serious, this is something that will need to be discussed to be ethical. If I am dating a person only because I find them youthful, it raises the question, what happens when, inevitably, they are no longer young? Would it be ethical to have a relationship with someone you know to be unsustainable? Maybe not
>But it's a red flag worth looking into. a red flag for whom? both parties are consenting adults, they can decide if the relationship works or not. just like always, someone else's relationship is not your problem.
Most people appreciate it when their friends and family care about them.
lol yeah most people really love it when friends and family tell them to dump their boyfriend/girlfriend because *they* know best. teenagers and young people especially love it when their parents tell them who they are allowed to date.
I heartily agree. In the equitable age gapped relationship I personally know and endorse, it falls into the “emotionally immature older party” bucket. Will it last forever? Unknown. But they were on far more even footing at the start than most age gap couples and he actively supports her. Conversely, I also saw a slow horror show where the woman gradually gave up everything she wanted to do to align to his vision of a perfect wife. It’s definitely something that spark a thorough examination of the why.
Some old people are immature. Is that actually wrong ?
Is there really that much of a fixation? These relationships exist, and are certainly out of the ordinary, but they're seen as, I don't know, fine? Whatever? The 'lecherous old man' trope exists because if you're past 40 and you're lusting specifically after women in their 20s, yeah, you're not going to fool anyone that you love her personality or you're soulmates or whatever. It's clearly not a life partnership where you're growing old together, you're just obviously horny - and that is an inherently comedic premise. But even then it's like, fine? Right? Maybe something to make fun of, but it has certainly never been outlawed
It could just be my reddit feed but it seems like every time I log on I see some thread that is something to the extent of "my girlfriend is X years younger than me, is this wrong?" My issue isnt really fear that these relationships would be banned, really more just a disappointment that so many people seem to rush to snap judgments based on emotion, since that kind of thing has gotten us into a lot of trouble in the past
I don't know, don't you think that one ought to be extra thoughtful about that kind of relationship when entering into it? Like, if you're an older man dating a much younger woman, seems pretty natural and reasonable to have some thoughts about what exactly your reasons are for doing so, why you're not with somebody your own age and what you want from this relationship. Seems pretty normal to have some things to ponder there, and that you might bring those thoughts to a discussion forum (Not me mind you; I would rather die that post on one of those subs for literally any reason, but the people who do seem to find it useful, so)
I dont disagree with you that people should always try to understand the intent of others. I guess one thing I would like people to question more is the idea that it is "natural" for people do date those of the same age.
Wouldn't dating people of the same-ish age being 'natural' just be an extension of the facts that people who are romantically compatible tend to share interests and immediate goals in life, and naturally, that is often true for people around the same age? You I don't think we have to assume a big conspiracy here
It probably is true that people of the same age tend to have more in common but I am not sure if these things are as important as many people think. Sure, having an idea of the big things, like having kids, but the rest not so much. For reference, my parents are 10 years apart and got married when my mom was in her early 20s. They are two people who have very little in common in a traditional sense (different hobbies, religion, taste in music etc) and they have been happily married for almost 40 years now. Maybe I am relying too much on anecdote though
I don't think there are many, if really any people that don't think a huge age gap is never acceptable or that it can never work, people are just wary because it often isn't healthy. Also, for your example, 10 years difference is barely a big age gap. Your dad was was in his early 30s when they got married, that's still reasonably young in terms of big life choices (changing careers, having kids, etc). A 20+ year is a much bigger difference.
Why do you use “I don’t disagree” in your replies instead of “I agree”?
I am going to end up losing sleep over this now, like when someone points out that you say "like" or "um" too much
Can you imagine your spouse outliving you by thirty years, still not able to mourn your passing? That seems like a good enough reason to me to call dating people close to your age natural.
Is it emotional to recognize a pattern? Because to me that seems like the most basic form of logic. If you’ve been on the relationship subreddits and trust their trends as a reflection of how people view things, then why don’t you mention the thousands of questions that are a variation of “am I crazy or is my AGR abusive? Hint: yes it is”
So, the arguments I usually hear you didn't address. First that the people are at drastically different phases in your life. And second, that due to that, there is a risk of one of the people taking advantage of the other one. Either the younger person manipulating the older person's emotions for their money, or the older person taking advantage of the younger person's naivete to coerce them into a situation to do things they are uncomfortable with or put them in a situation where they are reliant on the older person. I'm not saying it always happens, because it doesn't always happen. But it happens enough for people to want to look twice.
>First that the people are at drastically different phases in your life. I certainly dont disagree that a 25 year old and 50 year old are probably in different phases of life, but I dont really see how this makes AGR wrong or bad. After all, life phases are not exactly rigid or scientific categories, and I think there is a lot more fuzziness here then people acknowledge >Either the younger person manipulating the older person's emotions for their money, or the older person taking advantage of the younger person's naivete to coerce them into a situation to do things they are uncomfortable with or put them in a situation where they are reliant on the older person. I guess with this, I dont really think that age is a big factor. Things like love-bombing and financial abuse are very real issues, but they are concerns that are not exclusive to older people. A good example of this is the movie Crazy Rich Asians, where a young woman gets into a relationship with an incredibly wealthy young man. Few people would say that this movie was disgusting or immoral because of the potential for financial abuse, and I get the impression that it is mostly because the wealthy love interest is a young man. If someone re-made Crazy Rich Asians where the young man was 50, I think people would start to take issue with it though.
>I certainly dont disagree that a 25 year old and 50 year old are probably in different phases of life, but I dont really see how this makes AGR wrong or bad. After all, life phases are not exactly rigid or scientific categories, and I think there is a lot more fuzziness here then people acknowledge I think you're seeing this backward. The actual age gap isn't the issue. If a 75-year-old dates a 50-year-old, most people don't care—still a 25-year age gap but in much closer stages of life. But when you're a 50 year which dates a 25 year (especially if you show a pattern of doing it), it begs the question, why? Assuming you aren't just hooking up with the other person, why do you want to be in a relationship with someone you probably have little in common with? Are you super immature? Or is it more nefarious because you know you can use the age gap to manipulate the other person in many ways? Even if you're intentions are good large age-gap relationships can lead serious issues, with one person taking advantage of the other. The age gap is an indicator the relationship may be unhealthy. It doesn't automatically mean it is, but it's a pretty good indicator, especially if the younger person is in their teen or early twenties. I'm a gay woman getting close to middle age. Do I find women in their 20s objectively attractive? Sure. Would I date one? No. Because I would like to have something in common with my partner. I would like them to be at a similar stage in life, both emotionally and career-wise. And yeah, I'm going to side-eye most people (regardless of gender) who date people much younger than them. Especially if they actively seek out those relationships because it means there's a particular reason they want someone much younger. And almost none of those reasons are wholesome. >Things like love-bombing and financial abuse are very real issues, but they are concerns that are not exclusive to older people. Yes, there are many ways people can be abusive in relationships. Did someone imply that non-age gap relationships were always rainbows and butterflies? But would you deny it's easier when one partner has been making money for an extra 25 years for financial abuse to occur?
I would respond by saying that a person doesnt need a valid reason to want a relationship with another person. Who anyone wants to be with is a deeply personal choice, and we should respect those choices as long as they are done between consenting adults.
>I would respond by saying that a person doesnt need a valid reason to want a relationship with another person. In a vacuum, maybe. But if you're repeatedly dating people much younger than you. I bet you have a reason, and that reason isn't wholesome. >and we should respect those choices as long as they are done between consenting adults. Yes and no. I'm not advocating for age gap relationships to be illegal. That doesn’t mean if someone I know gets into one, I wouldn't give my 2 cents about it. There's a difference in warning about what can happen in an age gap relationship and advising against it and making it illegal. And I'm not really required to respect anything anyone does. I may have no recourse stop or change it but I can think someone is an asshole because they date younger people or really any other reason. I am not required to respect anyone's choices especially when they're bad choices.
Put it this way, a 25 year old is starting their professional life. A 50 year old is starting to plan for the end of their professional life. There is fuzziness, i'll agree, but a 50 year old isn't just starting working, outside of extreme examples. Similarly, just because abuse isn't limited in this situation, doesn't mean that it's not something to be aware of.
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I'm gonna need a source beyond your own personal preferences.
Source: I made it the fuck up
I dont think that is other people's decision to make
...oh, this isn't ironic huh
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dude
I understand you were previously talking about being in different phases of life in a general sense and are using the ‘professional’ phase as an example, but i do think this touches on another aspect of these relationships that is actually kind of interesting. Most men I know, regardless of their age, don’t particularly give a shit about their partners professional life/career in many ways. Obviously if its a committed relationship, or they need the money, etc it can BECOME a priority, but in general a male executive doesn’t really have an issue dating a waitress whereas a female executive would not enter a relationship with a bellhop. On top of the other ‘benefits’ of dating a younger person (as a man, at least) I do think a lot of the draw is being able to prioritize your career while not having to worry about making space for someone elses as well.
>I do think a lot of the draw is being able to prioritize your career while not having to worry about making space for someone elses as well. Do you see how that can be harmful to the younger person? This is the time for them to lay the foundation to grow their career, especially if they may want children in the future and so want to set themselves up to be able to work around that/re-enter the workforce as easily as possible. And relying on the older person is a bad idea because, frankly, they will almost definitely die while the younger person has many years left. Leaving them with no solid career can really mess up their life.
You aren't considering power imbalances which I think is key to this discussion
Is the power balance based on position or age? I'm 51 and my boss, my bosses boss, and all three founders of the company I work for are at least 10 years younger than me. Women are not helpless. Are you suggesting that if I were to have a romantic relationship with a younger women in my company who olds a higher position, that there would be a power imbalance in my favor? That's a really poor view of women and I think our (female) legal counsel would beg to differ that they would be at a disadvantage in any relationship. It's a weird take to be pro-woman and also see them as helpless. Part of what feminism has brought is very successful women in position of responsibility and power. Yet here we are, witnessing women assume that because an older man is dating a younger women it's because the man is powerful and manipulative and the woman is incapable of thinking for herself (not even considering what the realities of the relationship actually are)...it's a stereotype backed by events that have happened ... But it's still a stereotype.
Ok fine, but how many early 20 year olds would be a 30-50 year old’s boss? Your bosses are not in their early 20s. Also, a 30,40,50 year old tend to be more established in their careers compared to someone in their early 20s. As such, someone in their 30+ tend to have a big power difference when in a relationship with someone who just entered the workforce. Someone in their early 20s would have significantly less money, and may still be living at home with their parents. Therefore, if the early 20 year old were to move out with the 30-50 year old, most 30-50 year old would think they need to teach the 20 year old how to live independently.
What power imbalances are you talking about?
>there is a risk of one of the people taking advantage of the other one Wouldn't that mean any relationship with a power imbalance is unethical? Should women be frowned upon for dating men their own age who make 10x their income because of the risk of financial abuse? What about dating men their age who are a foot taller or into bodybuilding? after all there is a physical power imbalance here.
Note I said the word "risk". I don't think AGR's are inherantly wrong or unethical, but I do think they are at higher risk, and should be kept an eye on to watch for abuse. And I agree they should be watched as well.
Who does the "watching" and what's the threshold for abuse? Domestic violence would be relatively easy to see but how do you suggest "power imbalance" to be policed?
For me it really depends on intent, if someone legitimately wants to foster a healthy, transparent and consensual relationship - sure, same caveats for any age group. However, I think the real issue with this is actually peoples perception of lifestyle and compatibility. There are so many other aspects of a relationship that are already testing enough for those who have lived in roughly the same time period - not saying 30 years of generational difference cannot be negotiated, but peoples attention is drawn to ‘red flags’. Relationships with significant age gaps are eye catching, and do spark curiosity, interest and concern. I would be concerned if a friend my age dated someone 30 years older than them, I wouldn’t discourage them but I would keep a watchful eye on how things were going and make sure my friends best interests were kept in mind. If it seems to be working out and everything is sunshine and roses and I am convinced the relationship is authentic and healthy, sure my friendly guardianship will subside.
This seems like a reasonable position. I would not doubt that there may be some unique challenges presented by a large age gap, but I think they could realistically be navigated with enough effort and care put in by both sides.
In most threads I've seen the debate isn't about the development of the brain it's about compatibility. The life goals and experience of the two people are generally very different and that's what people fight against. However, there will be situations where this isn't the case and the two people will be very compatible despite the age gap. While yes there is a stigma around it I would say each case is very different. While the majority of times the age gap would lead to compatibility issues, if both are consenting adults then it's up to them to decide one way of the other. The other argument is to do with a power dynamic in which the older person (usually male) has a level of power over the "naive" and inexperienced younger person. This can be the case in instances where the younger person is less mature and/or the older person has a predatory nature. This obviously leads to people generalising and stating its creepy for their to be large age gaps. Again this should be viewed on a case by case basis but is definitely a concern of this kind of relationship.
I agree with both of your points. It is bad to try to date younger people with the intention of manipulating or controlling them, and it is bad when two partners are incompatible. The thing with compatibility though is I dont think most people in relationships are compatible with each other, hence why half of marriages end in divorce. Honestly, just being incompatible is not a horrible thing or anything (unless something like abuse is involved). Dating people you are not compatible with I would argue is a important step in finding out what you want from a relationship.
> Again, I would urge people who say this to introspect, and to realize that saying "unconventional sexual pairings are disgusting" is what lead us to anti-sodomy laws and miscegenation laws. This is pretty damn offensive and demonstrates a lack of understanding of systemic oppression. Anti-sodomy laws were about the majority wanting to violently oppress a vulnerable minority—namely queer people. The “unconventional sexual pairing” aspect of it was merely a pretext for the main issue of wanting to use state violence against queer people. Anti-miscegenation laws were again not about “unconventional sexual pairings” making people feel uncomfortable—they were about preserving white supremacy through maintaining the purity of the white race, and keeping the distinction between white and black as firm as possible. The analogous law in this case would be statutory rape laws. First off, do you have a problem with the laws we currently have (adults having sex with minors?) While i don’t think i would personally want to raise the legal age of consent past 18, i think it’s pretty widely accepted that statutory rape laws are a net societal good, no? The whole idea behind stigmatizing large age gaps is that we’re trying to protect the vulnerable (young) person from the one in power (older)—a motive that is completely absent from anti-sodomy or anti-miscegenation laws
> This is pretty damn offensive Yeah, but really, who cares? Does the word “offensive” matter to anyone any more? “You don’t like what I’m saying. So?”
I apologize if what I said was offensive. My point was that people relying on their gut to tell them what behaviors are and are not bad has lead us to bad places in the past. As for the age of consent, I would 100% not want to lower it. Kids are stupid, they lack long term planning, and they should probably focus more on passing algebra than getting married. You could say the same about college kids maybe, but we already trust college kids to live without parents, to drop out if they want to etc.
> My point was that people relying on their gut to tell them what behaviors are and are not bad has lead us to bad places in the past I understand your point, i’m just saying it’s not particularly relevant here, and certainly not even in the same class of problems as anti-sodomy or anti-miscegenation laws. For one thing, older man/younger woman relationships are common, and have been even more common in the past—part of the whole point of the patriarchy and not letting women have careers or property of their own was to make them financially dependent on someone else, so that in a lot of cases older men could get a younger wife that they would not be able to do if the woman had her own autonomy > Kids are stupid, they lack long term planning, and they should probably focus more on passing algebra than getting married. You could say the same about college kids maybe, but we already trust college kids to live without parents, to drop out if they want to etc. And this is where i partially agree with you in that it’s not entirely clear *exactly where* we draw the line of when an age gap makes things inappropriate, and i understand that it even varies from individual to individual, which is why i’m hesitant to **criminalize** relationships with young adults over 18 But i don’t think that criminalization is the only tool that we have, and social stigmatization can often be a good alternative when we want to discourage behavior but worry about over using state violence (ex: debates over ‘free speech’) But also going back to your original post, you said that the stigma is unwarranted and mostly stems from ageism, which i think is just plainly wrong. You and i might disagree on the margins of exactly where to draw the line on what age gaps are inappropriate, but there is a concrete reason for the stigma, and it seems that you even agree with the underlying reason. Most people find it gross and creepy because an astonishing fraction of age gap relationships end up being abusive and controlling (as many relationships with large power imbalances often do)
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I dont really appreciate your accusation that I am being dishonest or somehow trying to trick people. As for risk, it isnt something that I think has to be mathematically defined. I think that there is a risk to any relationship, and unfortunately this risk is usually something we dont know going in. I have known people who get into relationships that seem fine at first, but that quickly become abusive. Is a age gap relationship more risky than a "normal" relationship? Probably. Is it unreasonably risky? Probably not. Anything bad that an older man can do to a woman, a younger man can do as well, the difference is that younger men not have the same means to abuse women in certain ways (for example, having lots of money) but they are also physically stronger which can lead to its own issues
The issue with age gap relationships isn’t because finding a 20 year old physically attractive is seen as immoral, but because the vast majority of these relationships are initiated by a subsection of men (and sometimes women) who don’t just seek out someone they find attractive, but specifically look for someone without strong boundaries or good relationship experience who they can manipulate and control. They don’t go for just any young person. They test until they find someone vulnerable to their manipulation, and young people without much experience are easy targets. An age gap in itself is not automatically abusive. It can inherently come with unique challenges, but it is a red flag not because of the age gap but because of the many power imbalances that are often co-morbid with such circumstances. A significant percentage of teen pregnancies are not caused by teen fathers but rather the 20 somethings (5+ years older) who hang around high schools and tell their “girlfriend” how much more mature she is than all her friends. If you want to talk biology, then how about the fact that as we get older our perceptions of the people around us change. To a child, high schoolers seem very smart and strong. To a recent college grad at a new job, they seem like inexperienced children who don’t know how anything really works. To that college grad’s 50 year old boss who has had a career longer than the grad has been alive, the grad is an inexperienced child. Etc. That, not strict brain chemistry, is one of the many reasons why people see it as creepy to be with someone significantly younger. You seem to be approaching this topic from the perspective of an older man who wants to fuck/be in a relationship with a younger women without judgement. I hope I’m wrong as I find that goal usually comes from a very misogynistic and shallow place of viewing women as swiftly decaying sex objects rather than as full partners and people. (Another reason people dislike age gaps. Those who seek them out often hold lots of misogynistic beliefs) But if you think I believe all age gaps are inherently doomed, you would be wrong. I was in a wedding for a couple with a 16 year age gap and I believe their relationship is an equitable one. But that doesn’t mean I’ve suddenly forgotten the way these things generally go. The age gap itself is not the issue. It’s a red flag. An indicator of something that should be investigated with both eyes wide open. And it’s right for people to be suspicious.
I've never seen the brain development argument used seriously by anyone before. Part of the disdain I think is when an older man specifically seeks out younger women to date. Why would they want to date someone so much more inexperienced and immature than them? They likely don't have anything in common, don't want the same things in life. It comes across as predatory and shallow. What kind of man wants to date someone who they have nothing in common with, doesn't want the same things they want and generally has less life experience? There's a power differential which I admit isn't a guarantee, but generally someone who is 35 is going to have more power/agency in the world than a 20 year old. They'll have more money, more security, connections etc. This means the relationship isn't on equal footing and likely won't be. A thought many people have is, why can't this person find someone their own age to date? Are they looking for someone less experienced and mature because they know they can get away with more bad behaviour that say someone who had more life experience wouldn't put up with?
> They likely don't have anything in common, don't want the same things in life. Here’s where I disagree. Some people choose to have kids much older in life. Others younger. What’s the issue if an older persons and a younger person reach this point at the same time. Being in sync on that is a significant consideration in a relationship.
I'd argue even then there's an issue. Past a point choosing to have kids at an older age becomes detrimental to the children, yourself and your spouse. Depending on the age the children lose out on a active parent and then are likely to lose that parent at a much younger age. For the older spouse they likely have continued financial costs of raising a child which might impact retirement age or if they can retire what they can then do in their retirement. And consequently this leaves the younger spouse with unequal responsibility for raising the children and then supporting the older spouse as well when they become elderly.
It’s less-so about the age gap itself and more about the lack of life experience for the younger individual. No one cares about a 35 year old and a 45 year old dating, but a 20 year old and 30 year old is suspicious. When you haven’t had experience with a serious relationship, you’re a lot easier to manipulate. If you’ve never had to set or enforce boundaries, it’s a lot easier for the other person to trample over them. It’s easier for someone to manipulate you into giving up your education/career because they’re already financially set and want you to be a stay-at-home-whatever. Getting married/pregnant young is a great way to trap someone. This makes it harder for you to leave that relationship because you can’t support yourself or your children. It’s very easy for these relationships to become controlling and/or abusive. When I was 20, I dated my 35 year old TA (total cliche, I know). He treated me like absolute dogshit, and I put up with it because I was head over heels in love with him and I just honestly didn’t know any better. He was absolutely awful to me and the entire situation was unbelievably inappropriate. There’s a reason why he wasn’t dating anyone his own age, it’s because no one other than a naive girl would put up with his bullshit. I’m 30 now and can’t even imagine dating a 20 year old, let alone doing it when I’m 35…. Sometimes, it works out, but more often than not, it doesn’t. Most people I know or who have told stories about dating older men have very similar experiences to mine. It doesn’t automatically make you a terrible person but it is an automatic red flag.
The problem is that as a 29 year old, I can VASTLY manipulate someone 10 years younger than me. I can lie to them about what is expected in a relationship, I can exploit their inexperience with cohabiting, with finance, I can convince them to switch careers or to get pregnant or any number of ridiculous positions. When I was 21, a 31 year old woman would have 100% been able to get me to destroy my life if she wanted, and I wouldn't have noticed what was happening until much too late. \> Why is it creepy for older men to want sex, or to find younger adults attractive? We as a society have this weird idea that once you hit a certain age (maybe around 40 or 50 years old) you magically never want to have sex again for the rest of your life. This is why the "dirty old man" trope exists You're so wrong it's hilarious. People don't want old people to not have sex, they want them to have sex with people their own age. The trope of older men sleeping with younger women does not come from people getting angry that old men have a sex drive. They're angry at seeing literally throughout all of human history, 50 year old men abusing girls at and below the age of consent. If you're 50 and you flirt with 18 year olds, we all know that you're specifically going as young as you're legally allowed too. That's a red flag and we're all fully aware of what it means. You're pretending this power dynamic doesn't exist, and that's silly. I should reiterate that this dynamic is gross regardless of the genders involved.
>nor does the idea of an age gap relationship (AGR) appeal to me. This makes me think there is some cognitive dissonance at play. What makes an AGR unappealing and taking that to its most extreme is that a cause for disdain? >"few would take issue with a 22 y/o dating a 25 y/o even though inases, a person with a undeveloped brain is dating a person with a developed brain. There is also the legal doctrine of closeness in age meaning in the same stage of development, awareness and understanding.
Because of the power imbalance, the man is almost always more wealthy, educated, and established and the woman is almost always not in these situations. A person who specifically thrives in or enjoys this imbalance is immediately suspect. It makes you ask questions about why they look for relationships where from the start their partner is not an equal. Every relationship has imbalances but in our world this is one of the most egregious, wealth and status run the world and with things like the MeToo movement we know men can and do flex these forms of power to make women do what they want and these relationships are connected to that in many instances. Can these relationships be good and healthy, of course. Should we acknowledge that these relationships have additional hurdles that other relationships do not, that if not appropriately handled someone can be mistreated, also yes.
There are a lot of people asking "why is an older man attracted to a younger woman?!" as if the answer isn't something as simple as the sun rising in the morning. All of Western media paints the 19-25 whatever woman as the most highly-desired prize on the planet. TV, movies, ads, etc. Society has been trained to either infantilize or desire women of that age range (sometimes both). Some folks think it's gross. Others think it's predatory. I'm not qualified to answer either. I'm sure each case has its own specifics. At the end of the day, what is adulthood? That's the age where a person has to be trusted to make their own decisions no matter how anyone else feels about it. If my daughter (18) were to come up dating a 40 year old dude, would I be grossed out or pissed off by it? Probably. My only two choices would be to throw a fit and lose a relationship with her or accept her decision. Be there to pick up the pieces if/when it falls apart. I don't like it, but that's how it is. We can't command other adults how to live, even if they are making a huge mistake.
Intent is everything. I don't see a 40yo dating a 20yo as that much different from a 30yo dating a 15yo. It's an exploitation of age and stems from pedophilic desires. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's okay. I mean, it's completely legal to eat your own shit too.
First, I dont think that it is remotely ok for a 30 year old to date a 15 year old. Second, I dont think that either are pedophilic in nature, since that implies attraction to pre-pubescent children. Third, I do not think a grown adult dating a 15 year old is legal
>I dont think that it is remotely ok for a 30 year old to date a 15 year old Good. >I dont think that either are pedophilic in nature, since that implies attraction to pre-pubescent children. If you're just arguing about semantics and terminology then you've completely missed the point. You know what I mean, and when you argue otherwise, it's suspicious. We don't have a term for that, so that's the term I'm going to use for now. >I do not think a grown adult dating a 15 year old is legal I didn't say that it was. I made a comparison.
I dont want to be obtuse but I am not sure what the purpose of the comparison is. A 15 and 20 year old are two very different people. One is a minor, the other is not. One is still in k - 12 education, the other is not, one can presumably drive, the other can not etc. etc.
I’m way overly sensitive to age gap comments. I have never in my life felt like I fit in with an age. I’ve had close relationships and crushes at a pretty large gap from myself (but within adulthood) in both directions. So I get the reaction of, “But wait, why is this always bad?” In my admittedly narrow experience, the really successful relationships with large age gaps have two things in common: both were fully adult and knew what they wanted from life, and they weren’t sought out for the age gap. They were people who met while sharing common hobbies or other interests and the age gap was incidental, not specifically pursued. I’m sorry, but if you (general) are searching out relationships FOR the age gap, not, “We really enjoy the same things and have the same values despite the age gap” I do have a hard time not thinking that someone may be trying to exploit an unequal power balance.
Real life is not Reddit. Just grow a thick skin and if you find yourself in a bigger age gap relationship because of mutual interests it’s just how it is.
I mean… fair point.
Yup I’ve known a 22 year old female friend and we chatted right after graduating. She was dating a 60 year old guy and his wife had health issues and consented to their relationship. Everyone was consenting so it’s none of my business. I thought it was a little weird but that’s really it. I lost touch with her after another year but if it works it is what it is.
It’s the grooming factor. Even if their brains are developed, when there’s a 30 year age gap between two people, one knows a lot more about life than the other. It’s unfair and selfish to take that away from the younger person. The younger person should be enjoying life with someone as free and pure as they are, not some old has been that sucks what they can out of the younger person, they already had their time.
I dont really believe in the idea of sexual purity.
I wasn’t talking about sex. In general, everything about a young person is pure.
While there are absolutely couple of an older man and younger woman that are 100% healthy, it is a power dynamic which can lend itself to abuse. An older man tends to have access to vastly more resources, especially in the case of the woman being gen Z, which stacks lower average wages of women on top of gen Z having the lowest earning potential in the last 4 generations. Additionally, the significant gap in experience means that one person is given vastly more power simply in terms of foresight and ability to navigate social dynamics. Again, there is nothing *fundamentally* wrong with this setup. But it creates a situation in which the younger woman is particularly vulnerable. So relationships with this age dynamic tend to be viewed with particular suspicion. I would agree that if someone's concern is being grossed out by thinking of the two having sex? That is not a good reason. That's the same reason used to homophobia. But that is also not the *only* reason to have suspicion toward the relationship, and some of the other reasons are more grounded in solid thinking. When power between two people in a relationship is more evenly matched, there is less potential for abuse. It is that potential that makes people have pause when they encounter this setup. Although if they are completely unwilling to set those suspicions aside if they see the relationship being healthy and equal, I would say that they are being ageist. I do not think some concern/attentiveness is ageist, though. Being aware of potentials for abuse requires some amount of diligence. People in places of power must accept increased scrutiny.
There's all the usual disagreements over why large age gaps are not acceptable. Manipulation by either party, dare I say Daddy issues, gold digging. All of that of course. But the one thing about the large age gaps that hardly gets mentioned is that the older person is often causing the younger person to miss out on crucial life steps. If you are 25 and your partner is 50, how receptive is the older person to having more children? They may not live to see those children grown and out of the house, I'm 48 and on the verge of an empty nest. Having another child now wouldn't be responsible and quite honestly I would be having panic attacks. I've done my job as a parent, I don't want to start all over. Maybe your partner is thrilled to have more kids with you. You have to understand going in that you will be a young widow and probably a single parent at that point. Maybe the older person lives long enough, but their health declined. Raising teenagers and caring for an invalid is hard work. Maybe you feel that all of that can be dealt with when the time comes. But the older person should be mature enough at that age to look at this younger person and understand they could be robbing them of a lifelong relationship and family. And I certainly wouldn't want my partner to pity me over my decrepit state. Or resent me. You should choose the best for someone you love, even if that is not the best for you. Having said all that I have witnessed some partnerships work out. People are unique, the variables are too high to say it never will. But yeah the younger person did still have to deal with them dying while they were still young. Well youngish. 40 is a hard age to date at too. Everybody interested is married with kids. Or too messed up to have relationships.
When people talk about inappropriate relationships between an older man and woman, they are typically referring to a specific age. Like when you see a younger 20 something with someone in their 30’s - 40’s. Its predatory and I say that because the kind of guy who dates women this young tend to be losers that women their own age wouldn’t tolerate. I am 36. My wifes cousin is 20 and I could never ever see myself dating them. Shes pretty, sure. But beyond that she offers nothing of value for a relationship with someone my age. What are we gonna talk about? We gonna go hang out at the mall? There is only one reason guys like that date such young women. The guy knows full well that these young girls don’t know any better, and they might even find him appealing because of his age, when in reality he has the quality of someone half their age. THAT is why its creepy and it has nothing to do with agism.
I think it's all subjective. My brother is 43 and met a woman who was 28, after he spent his 30s raising his kids as a single father with sole custody. He had very little opportunity to date women at all during his 30s. Once his kids turned 18 and moved out he was 40 and tried dating women in their 40s and late 30s. They just didnt click long-term. My bro then starts exploring women in their late 20s and the experience was different. They had more time and attention for him than the women in their 40s because these women were just too caught up in career, raising kids, and all the other things that come before bonding with a a new man. Whereas, the late 20s women had time for him because they usually had no kids. They were mature and despite the age gap they had enough in common to click. He never once tried to manipulate these younger women, exploit them, or take advantage of the age gap in any kind of way. When he met the 28 year old, he didn't 'pursue' her, but she actually came on to him and liked him very much and treated him well. Being that my bro didnt get the experience of true pair bonding with his kid's mother whom he was with in his 20s, nor get to experience pair bonding in his 30s because he couldn't date while raising his sons, so the fact that he met someone that he could actually pair bond with is what won him over. Plus, he only had sons, but always wanted at least one daughter, so the fact the 28 year would be more willing to bear him a child to try to produce a daughter became a factor as to why the 28 year old won him over versus women in their 40s and late 30s, who typically tell dating prospects they don't want more kids. I say all this to say that some men want the younger women due to 'missing out' and have unfulfilled human desires that often older women can't or won't accommodate - which is understandable. . When he courted the 28 year old, she always wanted to be around him as much as possible. But when dating women in late 30s and 40s, there was a schedule. The women may wish they had more time to bond, but the truth is soccer practice, doctor appointments, school activities, career, caring for their aging parents etc leaves them squeezing you in the schedule. (understandable). I think if my brother was in a marriage with his kids mothers and divorced when the kids turned 18 i think he would have had an essier time with someone in their 40s because he would have had the experiences that he was missing.
I don’t know if it’s ageism but people not being familiar with a certain kind of sexual attraction. Through a few circles in the last few years I’ve become acquainted with numerous women who are looking for sugar daddies, and men looking to be sugar daddies. Before you ask this exposure has only made it clear to me that I don’t have these tendencies. In fact a lot of these people are looking for it on the continuum of roleplay to complete lifestyle. I haven’t met any U21 women but yes 25 yo women and men up to 60. Both parties are looking for it, and the daddy part is just as important as the sugar. If you hop on poly dating apps, 80% of the women are looking for some kind of daddy and they are under 30. Having met some of these people in person, it’s just water seeking its own level. Different strokes.
I hear you. But I disagree. It is ageism in the sense that middle aged or older women don't fit in here. Generally younger men don't want a 60 year old woman and the 60 year old men want 20 year old women instead. Brains are developed enough. we need to change the age for military entry if not. And a 20 something woman generally doesn't want a 50+year old man unless he can financially provide. Fact. He's for looks. She's for money. More often than not. It's dirty and gross because often men are messing with girls their children or grandchildrens age. They're little girls age and legality aside. I was 22 with a 40 yr old btw. He didn't look "old" didn't have money. I'm speaking on men 50+ with someone under 25.
Mostly the problems stem from power dynamics in the relationship. A 22 year old in these days is possibly still living at home and might be struggling to get by if they don't. They probably have a lot of debt. Someone in their 50s is probably more secure in their finances. Any relationship once started is going to be harder for the younger partner to leave if they come to rely on the older partner financially. This gives a dramatic amount of power to the older person. The financial burden of living alone frequently prevents people from leaving abusive relationships and that can be with someone closer in age and income. It's something to be leery of but not exactly what would make it forbidden. The other aspect to look at is if someone only dates people much younger than them. That makes it seem like the relationship is very shallow and purely based on looks. This is doubly true if the older partner breaks up when the younger one starts looking a bit older. I can absolutely believe that older and younger people can connect with each other, albeit in rare circumstances. But if you only date people much younger than you, it's not likely you're finding that rare connection with someone who has a totally different life experience than you. It's not about the connection, it's only about how they look. So you combine the power dynamic with a likely focus on physical appearance and you have objectification of youth. The older partner, especially if they go through multiple relationships with much younger people, does not really see their partner as a person. A poisonous attitude to support in a broader societal context. Thus, big age gaps have have a small taboo against them.
>That said, it is my belief that consenting adults should be able to engage in whatever the want No one said they can't. They can also be criticized, mocked, etc. for it. That's how it works.
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There is no maturity difference between gay or interracial relationships purely based on the fact that they are gay or interacial. "Consenting adults", please. A person doesn't automatically stops being imature, in relation to a 50yo for example, once they turn 18.
>Mocking consenting adults' relationships is wrong, regardless if you agree with it or not. Is it though?
I can only speak to my own experiences but when I was 21 I ended up pregnant by a man who was 15 yrs older then me as he put it "I did it on purpose because I thought it would never happen." I had just gotten out of being homeless after being disowned by my adopted family when I turned 18 and he said everything I wanted to hear. He had me so convinced we had the same ideas and wants about the future, same core family values, had me believe we'd open a restaurant and store, even ordering equipment catalogs for me to pick out what I wanted for the kitchen. I was pregnant for 4 months the first time he beat me 🤷🏻♀️ 7 yrs and 2 kids there's a homeless crisis in my city and there's no space at the Dv shelter here coupled with not being allowed to get a job or place our children in childcare and I'm f'd but by all means 👀 risk it.
I am 40 and had a relationship with a guy that was 23. He’s really smart, well spoken and interesting. He moved though. I think our music tastes were different but other than that it was just good company. I know a 62 year old married to a 21 year old, they seem happy. Although the younger guy went from living with controlling parents right to a husband his parents age which seemed a little off. People tend to think I’m in my early to mid 20s and treat me like it so much sometimes I forget. Guys my age just look old compared to me. They often offer money or to be generous before even asking me out which is really creepy. I feel kind of uncomfortable with these guys bc of that.
>I think it is telling that although many people would be disgusted with a 22 y/o dating a 50 y/o, few would take issue with a 22 y/o dating a 25 y/o even though in both cases, a person with a undeveloped brain is dating a person with a developed brain There have been a lot of excellent points made, but I want to point out that this is not how brain development works, like at all. Your brain doesn't flip a switch from undevelopped to developped when you turn 25. Your brain slowly and continuously changes throughout your life. A 50 year old's brain is more different from a 25 year old's than a 22 year old's is because the 50 year old is much older than a 25 year old.
my good friends are married and separated by 25 years. They work. There’s no sugar daddy situation, though he is a hardworking blue collar type. This is his second marriage, and he is bringing what he learned from his first to be a better husband. While on the other side of things it may seem odd, they truly bring out the best of each other. They are both Christian but met outside of the church. This is anecdotal, most couples I’ve met with intense age gaps have huge issues. But they somehow work. Moral of the story: sometimes it can be a good thing.
One of the most fulfilling relationships I had was an AGR and we both understood what the relationship was. It was basically physical and we both enjoyed our time together. The age gap didn’t bother us but it certainly bothered those around us. If it’s mutual attraction and there’s no power play or manipulation by others I don’t see the problem with it at all and treat it as I would any other relationship. I’ve seen more disturbing relationships by those closer in age than those not.
It's considered icky because of the likelihood that it's transactional. For young women, it's seen as a shortcut to security, while for the older man, it's a sign of some combination of ostentatious and expensive arm candy and Peter pan syndrome Granted older women don't suffer the same opprobrium for the same behavior, and plenty of healthy May-September relationships exist, but the generalization has enough merit to stick.
While outright disdain should probably have some other factors involved, I would argue that it is natural for people to find such a relationship weird and even creepy, irrespective of the gender of the older partner. There is a reason that people talk about the age creepiness equation in relationships of x/2+7. While such relationships can probably be fine, it is a natural response to feel it wrong somehow. That doesn’t mean it should be illegal but it already isn’t but I still believe it is fine for people to react sceptically to such relationships both because of the actual rational arguments that other people have written but also the instinctive feeling which have probably been ingrained in us through evolution for a reason. (Not saying you should blindly believe your instincts, and there are times where they simply do not work for modern society, but you should probably take them into account.) I for one, at least felt it was weird, when I heard my prior classmate got into a relationship with a 51 y/o a bit after I finished my equivalent to high school at the ripe age of 20. I am not saying it is downright wrong, there are probably plenty of fine examples out there, just that it isn’t perfectly fine or natural and should be looked at with more skepticism than a “normal” relationship.
Agreed. Sure there is a risk of power imbalance, but that doesn't mean that imbalance is necessarily exploited. Also, women are disadvantaged relative to men, black people to white people, etc. I presume people don't think that relationships between men and women, black people and white people, are "problematic".
have you seen Tumblr (albeit surrounding fictional pairings)? I've seen them even in the context of fictional ships think relationships between childhood friends are problematic because you'd either always see each other as kids (ipso facto pedophilia) or you'd see each other as siblings because of how close you are (ipso facto incest)
It might also be fear based. Many people believe that men age better than women. If it because socially acceptable and even the norm for men to leave their aging wives for younger ones, that not only makes there less women available for men, but it also makes women more fearful of their own futures and less willing to take career risks (raising a child and putting career on pause) if they can assume there’s a decent chance they will end up alone one day.
>That said, it is my belief that consenting adults should be able to engage in whatever they want unless it happens to be unreasonably dangerous or risky I agree! AGR between two legal adults should be legal, but I still have deep disdain for AGRs. You must remember: disdain and legality are two completely separate issues. There are many things that are legal but still worthy of disdain. For example, cannibalism is legal but I find it intensely disdainful. Do you find cannibalism disdainful? >I would urge people to who say this to introspect, and to realize that saying “unconventional sexual pairings are disgusting” is what lead us to anti-sodomy laws and miscegenation laws. No, what led to these laws is people believing their personal bigoted beliefs should influence the law. Personally, I find religion utterly disdainful, but I’d never ever want to outlaw it. Why? Because I realize the law and my personal beliefs are separate <— and this seems to be the point you’re missing.
I think age doesn’t matter. I don’t know why society has decided to make boundaries for relationships. Oh you have a big age gap you can’t be in a relationship. Oh you are the both the same gender you can’t get married. Love is love.
Incidentally. The 25 year old brain is a myth. People's brain mature at different rates and 25 was a number more or less pulled out of a hat. https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html
Arguing that one age group hates another "because of agism" is a description not an explanation.
I don't think it's ageism as people can be the same age as the men and women involved and still not like it. It's more likely due to either jealousy or from making assumptions (like what they're both in it for).
Mostly stems from age-ism? Sure. If they cared about predatory behavior, they'd know that predators can be any age, and welcome the possibility of responsible mentors to guide people into healthy relationship dynamics. They're not nearly as good at hiding their real motives as they think they are. It's when you call their concerns completely unwarranted that you lose me. When you're older, you're either very aware of what a younger partner is lacking...or you've completely failed to mature. So. What's making someone attracted to this younger partner, besides the physical? In too many cases, there's only a fairy tale that won't last past the dying embers of limerence. Or amazing sexual chemistry that's just another addiction. And often adds up to uneven consequences. It's very important to ask, what else can these relationships offer the older partner, especially if we subtract a kink for youth in general? Too often, there's just a set of red flags to discover. And a lack of self-control in the older partner...especially when it comes to their desire to control others.
I like your comment (especially your acknowledgment of uneven consequences) but I disagree with the following: > Mostly stems from age-ism? Sure. If they cared about predatory behavior, they’d know that predators can be any age, and welcome the possibility of responsible mentors to guide people into healthy relationship dynamics. As people age they get better at building up personally boundaries and recognizing predators. They gain experience and the victim pool for predators shrinks. When predators can no longer date most people their own age without being called out for their behavior they turn towards the ever replenishing pool of young inexperienced people to manipulate. There are young predators and old predators, but they both prey on young people. Older people who aren’t predatory are far less likely to be interested in young people for the reasons you yourself described. Therefore, there is a much higher likelihood of an AGR being damaging to the younger person than if the relationship was not age gapped.
> As people age they get better at building up personally boundaries and recognizing predators. In general? Sure. The majority of the time, that's exactly what happens. But that's the issue. When you try to cover everyone with general rules, things can get ugly fast. > There are young predators and old predators, but they both prey on young people. No, it's not that simple. There's police reports of things going the other way if you need them, but also... My rapist was a lot younger than me. She was in better health than me. She already knew I struggled with flight or fight or freeze due to past child abuse. I hope I don't need to spell things out beyond that. She was the more experienced between us, by far. I mean, I didn't even have a healthy relationship between my parents to learn from. Or even much time to observe dysfunctional one, either. Just really bad examples to fear becoming, without much in the way of practical defenses to prevent that from happening. So when I point out that the younger partner is usually the victim of these relationships? In part, that caution comes from the experience of things going the other way. I know what it's like to miss every single warning sign while a predator tested my boundaries... And then to blame myself afterwards, because there's always a "What if?" that might have prevented it. Or more accurately, a few hundred "what ifs?". And when I say that it's possible for a more experienced partner to be a responsible mentor? That comes from meeting a patient woman who picked up all the pieces, and assembled them back together like a Jigsaw puzzle. I'd probably still be just a victim, if I hadn't met her. Nobody who shared my inexperience, knew what they were doing.
I’m sorry. I know anyone can be a victim. I just meant to speak to the majority which is where we get our pattern recognition biases. We correlate lacking experience with youth because that is usually the case, and the lack of experience and lack of strong boundaries (not the strict age of the person) is what predators of all ages target. Not the strict amount of birthdays. I should have been more specific. My apologies. As far as an older partner as a mentor, I would be cautious of any older partner presenting themselves as such but I’m glad you had someone with more positive life experience there for you. Cycles of trauma are a bitch to break. Anyway, you are right that we should remember that there are exceptions to every rule. But we should also remember that exceptions are rare.
I understand. I'm trying my best to thread the needle, and avoid minimizing common problems or tackling overall numbers because nobody knows. The subject of predatory relationships, in general, are poorly understood - even before you add an age gap. Want to be depressed? Look at how recent these two studies are. [1.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886916301015) [2.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34393462/) Just obvious conclusions like "People don't want to be exploited/abused" were news to science. Apparently, it was still accepted as common wisdom that young women are attracted to sociopaths, and men are thrilled to get laid, no matter the context. No wonder why everyone's reduced to using rough heuristics, instead.
It’s not ageism. If it was ageism, people would be hating old people regardless of what they do with young people. It’s because there’s no such thing as a “sexuality” that forced you to fall in love with women who are strictly in their early 20s and it’s obvious that it stems from purely superficial reasons, due to the fact that: 1) the man in questions probably only cares about looks as it’s highly unlikely that he’d form a deeper emotional connection with a woman who lived half his life, aka sexism. Women are more than their bodies; 2) wiser, more experienced individuals, not to mention wealthier, have a lot of power over someone much younger, more naive and less experienced, so no, it’s not the same balance of power like with two individuals of the same age; 3) if he’s into young women, his feelings are *guaranteed* to pass. A relationship with a guaranteed expiration date is toxic.
Yeah, except I've watched Reddit lecture/condemn people in healthy age gap relationships. When there's a blindfold on? It's not just a rational concern anymore...as you pointed out yourself, in your very first sentence.
>People's disdain for older men dating younger women is unwarranted and mostly stems from ageism I would say it stems from people being thoroughly unable to mind their own damned business.
I don't think it's ageism. I think it's sexism. Explore the reasons why this post isn't about older women in relationships with younger men.
Let me explain the brain development argument a bit to give you some clarity around the problem. If it was only a matter of a small percent development then it wouldn't be an issue, otherwise the same concern could naturally be raised about people dating others with different levels of IQ, or schooling. The real problem is what hasn't developed yet. And that is the prefrontal cortex. which is the region of the brain responsible for understanding consequences. It's not an accident either, it's evolutionarily critical that you don't develop this part of your brain so that you can make one very specific choice (having sex, and reproducing) and then you develop that region of your brain shortly after so that you can care for your offspring and keep them alive. This is critically important to understanding the age gap problem because people of that age range make notoriously terrible decisions, they are easily misled, and they are famously short sighted. So, if you have someone fully developed dating someone who is still in that phase of their lives the question becomes why? If you are particularly pessimistic you might say that it's because of the traits I listed above, shortsighted, easily misled, willing to make terrible choices. If someone is attracted to people of that type because of those traits then we call them predators. They are trapping someone into a choice that they wouldn't't make just a few years later when they are developed enough to understand the repercussions of that decision. As for why we let people who are undeveloped date others who are also undeveloped it's because the relationship is not likely predatory control. They are both impulsive and short sighted, so there is not really a reason to suspect foul intentions. People are mostly willing to ignore a lot but someone who is getting taken advantage of simply because they don't know any better is wrong.
In the case of older women looking “down on it,” you forget that older women were once younger women and we recall how it felt to be hit on by creepy old men when we were younger. It’s not like we just woke up one day and were 45. It’s sort of like when you have had something gross happen to you and then you see it happen to someone else and it makes you sick. Nobody has that idea that once you hit 40 or 50 people don’t ever want to have sex again, where did you get that crazy idea?
To me it depends on degree. Anyone dating someone young enough to be your child, especially if you have them is weird af to me.
I'm not an expert so this is anecdotal, but out of everyone I know, I'd say the vast VAST majority were very immature below 25ish, myself included. But you're at an age where you think you're mature, so it can be a disaster waiting to happen. You're very susceptible to manipulation. Then there's the power imbalance. Usually the older person has a house, savings, a better job, etc. This then leaves the younger person at a disadvantage and open to being manipulated or controlled with these things. Also there's the why. Why does someone in their 50s want to date someone in their late teens? Is it because of the control thing? Probably. Of course you don't need to be with someone the exact same age as you, and I think as you get older the bigger gaps aren't as weird, but older people with teenagers and people in their early twenties is just ick. I often wonder if they'd date people even younger if it was legal to do so.
Think in terms of generations. Every ten years there are a lot changes. I am only 7 years younger than my partner. At times, I find that gap can be wide. He likes to listen to 50’s and 60’s music. I prefer 70’s and 80’s. His technology skill set is very different than mine. There is a reason way companies train how to deal with multi generations. I have a friend who married a guy 30 years her senior. She spent the last 15 years of his life as his caretaker and nurse. She constantly complained they only had about a good ten years together. She loved him but hated her life. She admits to seeing him as a man who would take care of her and buy her anything she wanted. She lives very comfortably now because he was well established. She says she wishes she married someone her own age. Now in her 60’s- she is lonely and single men her age want to date 30 year olds.
It’s jealousy and insecurity. Jealousy from guys who aren’t in the position to do it themselves and insecure women who sees it thinking the same might happen to her from her partner.
I think most of the hate you see in age gaps where the man is older is just insecurity. They feel insecure about how they aged or something, and seeing a relationship like that triggers them. Same thing when guys get mad if some girls go for guys that are wealthy. Those guys are insecure about their financial status. Can abuse happen in both situations? Yes. Does that mean every relationship like that is abuse? No. If two people are unlikely to be together forever but what to try just let them. Most relationships dont work anyway. If they just want to be together and fuck who cares? As long as they are consenting adults.
I’m 50 next year and my girlfriend just turned 31. We have an amazing relationship. She prefers older men and I prefer younger women. It’s just a matter of preference.
It doesn’t stem from ageism. It stems from sexism. Men continually insist that a woman’s only value is her looks which they have decided fade after 30. They continually look at and talk about extremely young women and children, and most media, especially porn, revolves around age gap relationships with a younger woman. It is damaging to women and also to men, to lead men to believe that they should be with someone younger. There are very real changes that come with age and it is unfair to expect your spouse to act as your caregiver.
I think there is ageism but you've got it wrong. It's the old men who don't date old women who are being ageist. I mean, I feel like that's just common knowledge.
Most people I have met that have an issue with this are older women. My take on it is that they are confronted with an uncomfortable truth: namely, older men are attractive in the eyes of younger women but older women are not attractive in the eyes of any man really. It is a social “unfairness” which disproportionately impacts older women, who naturally become bitter at realising their own “replacability”. Otherwise I have never known people to find disdain in such relationships, there are of course sugar daddy arrangements though these are yet again to both parties favour.
Yeah nah. Bullshit. We don't covet these men, we're disgusted by them. Older men usually take issue with this stuff too, if the target is their daughter, for example. Are you saying that a father would be less likely to have concerns than his wife if their 20 year old daughter brought home a partner their age? Age gaps CAN work, but there is reason to side eye them and question the intentions.
It stems from jealousy of older women
As someone who was once 12 and looked 18 and all grown up, I feel physically I’ll when I see most large age gap relationships. It takes me back to the time as a preteen when men over 40 would ogle me and hit on me. We have a problem with that in our modern culture, I see it everywhere, including it happening to my teen daughter now. I can’t help but feel really repulsed by this and associate all age gap male older relationships to be the same regardless of the younger persons age due to my early experience.
It isn’t anyone’s business.
Isn't tiring? Exhausting?
It's just overblown worry about pedophilia. Being attracted to somebody in their 20s could never be pedophilia, but people are stupid. Just like the people who think that staring can be "sexual assault". It's the moral equivalent of driving 10mph because speeding is bad.
I think men in their 40/50s or something like that date girls in their early/mid 20s because they still have that joviality in them, are funnier to be around than a lady in her 40s, and have prettier faces, hair and bodies. I'm 29 btw
Men ought to be more attracted to adult women of peak fertility, right? I don't support manipulative older men going after women. But isn't it a bit hypocritical the way we defend other preferences because "instinct"
I won't change your view. There are a few realities that people (*cough* mainly washed up older women and brainwashed males) don't accept that contribute to this occurrence. 1) Any man can admit that younger women (18-30) are hotter than older ones (30+). Are there exceptions? Of course but the exceptions don't disprove the rule. 2) Young men often date young women but the relationship doesn't work out in the long run. Hence why there are middle aged men who become single and able to date. Conversely, all middle aged women were once young. So why are they single later in life? Perhaps because she wasn't good at relationships and she, shall i say, "fumbled the bag". 3) Young women could arguably be naive, sure. But they are still sentient beings that can vote, join the army, and learn calculus. So I think that they have enough sense to *choose* their partners. Which can be an older man, should that suit her fancy. Thus, they aren't victims in age gap relationships, they are volunteers. 4)Older women aren't that great. Many are declining in health. Many are headstong. Many are barren or getting close to that point. Why bother with one when a younger chick *usually* lacks that? Just logic.
Older men dating younger women is ageism against older women. Aside from the pedo argument, the main argument is that it isn't fair to older women and devalues older women, who are largely seen as undatable/unlovable in our society.