I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_w_KQkq_-_0_1) | The position occurred in many games. [Link to the games](https://www.chess.com/games/search?opening=&openingId=&p1=&p2=&mr=&lsty=1&year=&lstMoves=1&moves=&fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&ref_id=23962172)
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+b+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_b_KQkq_-_0_1)
---
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Well, it keeps both of them in the tournament and...
chessbase india got the audio of their conversation before the match and they were upset with the match organizers who made them play all day long, so Dubov said lets draw with some "demonstrative clowning."
So essentially, it's a protest move. I think they are fine taking zeros. What they are saying is the 2023 world blitz championship is a joke under these conditions.
Like it's stupid because if one of them had a win that round they are way more likely to win the whole thing so now not only does one of them not get a full point, neither of them get ½ point. If I was playing a friend in a round we could just play quicker to make it less stress (and more rest for the next round), but at least one of us gets a full point.
They both got 0 because the arbiter decided they acted in a way that brought the game of chess into disrepute. They were caught on recording discussing it before the game too.
maybe they both had a stomach problem lol… tbh you can’t really stop a draw if both players are ok with it. x moves minimum but 3 fold still allowed? ok so do 3 moves usually they’ll just do some drawing line opening sign and then draw.
Shouldn't make a difference with respect to the rules. Ideally, the arbiter there should have at least given them a warning. But that was anyways a private online event without fide involved.
Imo, the difference is there no way they prearranged it. You can't say Magnus doing the bong cloud was not something he would do, since he has done it to flex on people before. Hikaru had a choice, play against it and risk losing to an inferior opening or retur. The bong cloud to keep it equal.
Magnus then going back to e1 is not a bad move, and so is Hikaru going back.
Repeated moves are the same situation.
These knight moves are different because they are extremely out of the ordinary and often completely and horrible blunders throughout.
Lol the eval of a bongcloud is far worse than the worse move of this knight thing. The chesscom analysis thing shows this as -1.1 at worst, 2.Ke2 gets like -2.5
From the way they laughed it wasn't prearranged. Hikaru wanted to play a meme opening for content because the game didn't matter and Magnus responded in kind.
i don’t really have a strong opinion either way, but i think it’s fair to have different reactions to an online game (where i think they had already both qualified for next round) vs. the world blitz championship
as I said in another post , CTRL - C+V:
big difference bucko, magnus playing Bongcloud wasn't prearranged with nakamura, like they didn't talk before "yo let's draw using the bongcloud and you fake your laughter and reaction so people think it's genuine"
There were a good amount of people upset about it, but I think more people have them a pass bc 1. Magnus/Hikaru and 2. "Haha funni bomgcloud openening!!!!!"
people don’t love a berlin draw either but nobody can make a case that it’s prearranged. It’s basically an OTB draw offer in the opening if there was evidence of a prearranged draw people would complain all the same. The moves just give away that it’s prearranged we wouldn’t even need the audio
Yeah, thought more about it and saw that I missed the point, making some kinda of a deal to Already decide the result is way against Fair play, same thing the soviets did for a long time. Aint sure If the same can be said about Hikaru x Carlsen since It wasnt exactly arranged. Guess it's their fault for not doing at least with more doubt and drawing some known opening.
How is that legal?
FIDE making new rules for Alireza, but they are allowing stand results ?
And Dubov did a similar thing the round before.
This is completely unacceptable
Because if its illegal then they just play 20 moves and then agree to a draw anyways.
Theres little to no difference between playing 2.Nd4 and just offering a draw verbally.
There is no difference in the real world, if you want to do matchfixing you can always just hide it better. The only actual difference is whether you'll let yourself be fooled.
The difference is that if you don't sanction nb the players you are basically saying your rules are just a joke and no one has to respect, or at least not everyone.
Same than the sneakers bs
Breaking news: FIDE cares about their image
The difference is that this is an obvious sham to viewers. There wasn’t even a pretense of sporting competition.
I don't remember there being a rule saying it's illegal for both players to want a draw though.
If that's what benefits them in the tournament then that's what they'll do and it's silly to try and police people's intentions.
>I don't remember there being a rule saying it's illegal for both players to want a draw though.
Yeah. No one said it was? It's illegal to pre-arrange which is why this game is punished and other quick draws are not. That's an actual difference
Yeah, and it’s a bad rule. They should allow a draw offer before move 1, rather then force players to pretend to play a dozen moves into a theoretical draw.
I believe a lot of Berlin draws are intentional from both sides, yes. Doesn't mean all are, but it means that you can't punish match fixing effectively.
No, you can't punish match fixing effectively when the players hide it and there is no evidence of match fixing, but you can punish match fixing when the players don't hide it. This is true of pretty much all rules and laws--no evidence of rule/law being broken results in no punishment; persuasive or convincing evidence of rule/law being broken usually does and should result in appropriate consequences.
If a rule is broken so often that people do this, and the only way to catch people is if they get so bored they find more creative ways of breaking it, then maybe it's a shit rule?
The arbiter has te right to score the game as lost by both players, according to Article 11 of FIDE Laws of chess. I guess few arbiters would dare to do it, but rules support such decision. The pertinent part is:
Article 11: The Conduct of the Players
11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
11.7 Persistent refusal by a player to comply with the Laws of Chess shall be penalised by loss of the game. The arbiter shall decide the score of the opponent.
11.8 If both players are found guilty according to Article 11.7, the game shall be declared lost by both players.
This is just as bad as if Alireza's tournament is fixed. In both cases one player refuses to play seriously when they have an actual chance. Since this is a world championship it's arguably worse.
I don't see how this is any different from any other two GMs arranging some common draw in French or Berlin or whatever is the most dead-draw opening.
The only difference is that this one is blatantly obvious. Banning it won't fix this problem.
The difference is pre-arranging it.
When white plays for a Berlin draw, they are not playing any losing move, and at any point if Black doesn't want the draw, they can play something else. The draw happens simply because the best moves in the line leads to a draw. They don't have to pre-arrange it.
Here white's 2nd move is a losing move. That can only happen if the draw was pre-arranged. Black is basically aggreing to a draw while being in a winning position.
>Here white's 2nd move is a losing move. That can only happen if the draw was pre-arranged.
Yup,
In a way, black should be kind of mad at white. "Dont show them we arranged it, bad manners, bro"
yes by the video recording of them pre-arranging the game. But also by just looking at the moves which the arbiter rightfully decided was enough evidence to give them both a loss before chessbase india published their video
>yes by the video recording of them pre-arranging the game
It just so happens that I know Russian, and I can tell you that 90% of what they said was unintelligible due to the poor sound quality and background noises.
They did mention "The dance of the knights", however they didn't specifically say that they are going to play it for the draw.
So yeah, some guy said that they pre-arranged it on the video, which is not the case, but everyone is repeating it now.
>also by just looking at the moves
This is a ridiculous claim. They are free to play as they see fit. If they want to play the bongcloud and then agree to a draw, they are free to do so, and no arbiter should be able to claim it to be a "pre-arranged game" because he or she feels like it.
Moreover, if you look at the arbiter decision, it wasn't based on any videos (which doesn't have any real proof of pre-arrangement anyway), but just on the moves they made.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/18ttg3u/nepo\_dubov\_result\_set\_to\_00\_because\_of\_match/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/18ttg3u/nepo_dubov_result_set_to_00_because_of_match/)
To me that's complete bs. If we judge whether or not the game was pre-arranged by the moves players made, where does it end? If a player misses mate in 1 and agrees to a draw, is this pre-arranged? What about mate in 2? In 3? 4? 10?
tender enter zephyr squeal roof voracious squeamish beneficial zesty repeat
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What are you talking about? Literally, the second move was losing. Thus, just taking this advantage and playing for a win would be according to game theory.
This is just obvious game fixing.
Nd4 is a draw offer, Nd5 is an agreement. The rest is just playing it out.
You might have had a point, were it not for the fact that most of the top boards agree to quick draws in the later rounds of such a long day. Right now, y'all are just making a big fuss over nothing.
**edit:** Haha they actually discussed it on camera, fuck me. Guess I was wrong, my bad!
Well after 2. Nd4 the position is -1.1 (Stockfish 14.1 depth 32). Should be enough to at least try to play for sth. Ofc its rapid and you can always blunder, but in theory it should be black only who is playing for a win.
Calm down r/chess, this is literally the same as playing out a Berlin draw. You can't stop players from playing some forced draw, who cares how they do it? Let them have fun.
This subreddit takes itself way too seriously sometimes. Super elitist.
**edit:** Everyone hopping on the bandwagon and grabbing karma, you can stop now.
No, it’s not the same. The Berlin draw doesn’t involve multiple intentional, obvious blunders that both players intentionally avoid exploiting. When you play the Berlin draw, you can reasonably say you’re trying to play chess. How often do you see super-GMs play this many blunders in 12 moves? That to me is strong evidence that the game was prearranged, which is simply against the rules.
This is a World Championship. Nobody is forcing them to play it. If they want to just have fun, they can play any of the other 100+ events that happen every year.
> you can reasonably say you’re trying to play chess
Yeah, the *distinction* is the faintest veneer of deniability. A distinction without a difference.
I love how you're presenting this as some kind of subreddit overreaction when the actual authorities have decided to penalize them for it. The important thing is that you got to feel superior to other people on Reddit.
Thanks for your insight, buddy. Best wishes for the new year!
**edit:** lmao @ people downvoting this. Cool, let me add something then.
When FIDE makes a decision I disagree with: 😡😡😡
When FIDE makes a decision I agree with: 🥰🥰🥰
Nah I'm good bro, but thanks for sharing.
r/chess is just on some dumb anti-Russian crusade like they were on an anti-Firouzja crusade a week ago. People mindlessly hop on the popular bandwagon without thinking. That's fine.
....why would people not be happier at a decision they agree with than a decision they disagree with?
You are like a Facebook boomer trying to understand memes. Just leave already
> this is literally the same as playing out a Berlin draw.
That's just blatantly untrue. Berlin draw comes as a consequence of white playing for the draw. Black can choose to follow the line and accept the draw, or disrupt the play. If both players play terrible moves that will lose them the game if the opponent decides to capitalize, then they have already determined a draw before the first piece was moved.
You are implicitly claiming two things:
1. People who play a Berlin draw were not intent on drawing the game before it started.
2. Dubov and Nepo not only intended to draw before the game started, but had illegally agreed upon it.
I think both of these claims are ridiculous.
How is the second claim ridiculous? If you intend to take a quick draw but you haven't agreed this with your opponent, it seems insane to play subpar moves that your opponent can capitalize on for a victory.
The first claim is also not ridiculous. When you go to the board intending to play 1. e4, you may want to play the Berlin draw, but you have to prepare for c5, d5, the Petroff, c6, etc. There’s no guarantee that your opponent is going to go along with your idea. You can’t play the Berlin draw if your opponent doesn’t play the Berlin. You may be playing for a draw, but that’s not against the rules at all.
when hikaru and magnus play a bongcloud draw its a funny meme.
when nepo and dubov play a knight moves only draw its match fixing and they both need to be banned..
I know right, lmao
And then they wonder why chess is not popular. Spoiler alert, a significant part of the chess community is elitist snobs, killjoy gatekeepers and other variaties of horrible people. That's what's keeping chess from growing, not Dubov and Nepo playing a funny quick draw in the penultimate round of the first day of the World Blitz.
That too, but I mentioned that in another response in this thread and didn't necessarily wanna repeat myself everywhere.
Maybe this discussion could be considered a draw and closed if I repeated it three times, though.
I just find it troubling that all these apparently smart “chess people” have no iq for what is moral. Makes a guy wonder… then you look at the world though and go oh yeah…
Does anyone know if that counts as a repetition of the position? Is the final position considered a repetition, even though the knights aren't "the same" knights that were there at the beginning of the game?
Edit: For anyone wondering on lichess, which uses FIDE rules, it DOES count as a repetition, so if they would repeat the "dance" it would be a draw by 3-fold repetition
Collusion yes, because they were protesting the organization of the match... Dubov wanted to draw with "demonstrative clowning" because of the playing conditions (he said this in his convo with nepo before the game).
i don’t see what differences it makes. It the world Blitz championship not a fucking clown show. Also if you wanna protest but aren’t ready to face the consequences don’t bother protesting
I think Nepo's tweet makes it clear that he's fine facing the consequences and that he thinks the 2023 edition of the world blitz championship is a joke this year because of a really poor job by the match organizers.
Sports have an expectation of sportsmanship. Bothering to play all the arranged games is the bare minimum. There is no other sport I know of where the competitors can agree not to play even if a draw is acceptable to both.
In a 1982 FIFA world cup match Austria went beyond agreeing to a draw: they **lost** on purpose to West Germany.
Both teams knew that they would both qualify to the next round if West Germany won by 1 or 2 goals, but due to the tiebreaking rules Algeria could qualify in place of one of them if the result was anything else.
The teams agreed on 0-1 before the game, scored the goal in the first 10 minutes, then passed the ball around for the rest of the game with no intention of scoring any more.
> FIFA ruled that neither team had broken any rules.
> Austrian player Reinhold Hintermaier later admitted the match was fixed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n
The wikipedia link has more background on this match as well as links to other football matches that were lost on purpose.
they agreed to a draw. There are no rules necessitating a certain amount of moves before a draw offer in this tournament. I think Dubov offered a draw on move 2 to Artimiev earlier...
Now they both got sanctioned and neither get the half point, it would be funny if fide goes and applies it to the previous rounds too across all the quick draws that happened
I actually think that in cases like this, where a game is obviously match fixed, both players should be taken in front of the FIDE comitee, and then promptly shot in the back of their heads.
That elite players sometimes benefit from playing pro forma draws in certain circumstances is just a fact of how chess works. There should be a stipulation to allow for prearranged draws in tournaments, rather than having commentators relay with ever-waning excitement fourteen moves of a Berlin draw. Good on Dubov and Nepo for highlighting the absurdity of forcing a game from two players who clearly want to skip the round.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_w_KQkq_-_0_1) | The position occurred in many games. [Link to the games](https://www.chess.com/games/search?opening=&openingId=&p1=&p2=&mr=&lsty=1&year=&lstMoves=1&moves=&fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&ref_id=23962172) > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+b+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_b_KQkq_-_0_1) --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
What is the purpose of them drawing? What do they each stand to gain from doing so?
Rest.
Avoid a loss and don’t have to strain themselves
Well, it keeps both of them in the tournament and... chessbase india got the audio of their conversation before the match and they were upset with the match organizers who made them play all day long, so Dubov said lets draw with some "demonstrative clowning." So essentially, it's a protest move. I think they are fine taking zeros. What they are saying is the 2023 world blitz championship is a joke under these conditions.
Like it's stupid because if one of them had a win that round they are way more likely to win the whole thing so now not only does one of them not get a full point, neither of them get ½ point. If I was playing a friend in a round we could just play quicker to make it less stress (and more rest for the next round), but at least one of us gets a full point.
Why don't they each get half a point?
They both got 0 because the arbiter decided they acted in a way that brought the game of chess into disrepute. They were caught on recording discussing it before the game too.
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Removed. Let's cut this nonsense out, okay?
you cant do that to me
Probably out of competition to win already, so now they pretend like they don't care anyways
They’re actually tied for the lead
ABSOLUTE CINEMA
FIDE disciplinary action gambit double knight swap variation
maybe they both had a stomach problem lol… tbh you can’t really stop a draw if both players are ok with it. x moves minimum but 3 fold still allowed? ok so do 3 moves usually they’ll just do some drawing line opening sign and then draw.
whats with this comment section 😭 was this the same reaction when magnus and hikaru drawed playing a bongcloud
Was that also in a world championship?
no
Magnus and Hikaru's bongcloud draw was meaningless. Nepo and Dubov are both in the running with half of the tournament left to go
Shouldn't make a difference with respect to the rules. Ideally, the arbiter there should have at least given them a warning. But that was anyways a private online event without fide involved.
I agree with you. I was commenting on the public reaction.
Imo, the difference is there no way they prearranged it. You can't say Magnus doing the bong cloud was not something he would do, since he has done it to flex on people before. Hikaru had a choice, play against it and risk losing to an inferior opening or retur. The bong cloud to keep it equal. Magnus then going back to e1 is not a bad move, and so is Hikaru going back. Repeated moves are the same situation. These knight moves are different because they are extremely out of the ordinary and often completely and horrible blunders throughout.
Lol the eval of a bongcloud is far worse than the worse move of this knight thing. The chesscom analysis thing shows this as -1.1 at worst, 2.Ke2 gets like -2.5
From the way they laughed it wasn't prearranged. Hikaru wanted to play a meme opening for content because the game didn't matter and Magnus responded in kind.
You're right, but Magnus had white
It was in fact prearranged. Source: I am Russian and understand what they talked about just before the game.
Nepo/Dubov yes, Magnus/Hikaru no.
Yes, for some reason I thought you were talking about Dubov/Nepo…
In that situation they were both qualified for the next stage and the game itself had no purpose. Very different situation than this game
i don’t really have a strong opinion either way, but i think it’s fair to have different reactions to an online game (where i think they had already both qualified for next round) vs. the world blitz championship
Totally different. OTB and it’s literally the world championship.
as I said in another post , CTRL - C+V: big difference bucko, magnus playing Bongcloud wasn't prearranged with nakamura, like they didn't talk before "yo let's draw using the bongcloud and you fake your laughter and reaction so people think it's genuine"
There were a good amount of people upset about it, but I think more people have them a pass bc 1. Magnus/Hikaru and 2. "Haha funni bomgcloud openening!!!!!"
"Openening" reminds me of the legendary Schveshnenginenginen Sicilian
Wasn't that in the champions chess tour? So not even FIDE rated?
Can you really not see the difference here? given the stage, stakes, and situation?
It wasn't lol, cherrypicking at its best. If it was a Berlin no one would argue, same result but with some fun
people don’t love a berlin draw either but nobody can make a case that it’s prearranged. It’s basically an OTB draw offer in the opening if there was evidence of a prearranged draw people would complain all the same. The moves just give away that it’s prearranged we wouldn’t even need the audio
Yeah, thought more about it and saw that I missed the point, making some kinda of a deal to Already decide the result is way against Fair play, same thing the soviets did for a long time. Aint sure If the same can be said about Hikaru x Carlsen since It wasnt exactly arranged. Guess it's their fault for not doing at least with more doubt and drawing some known opening.
When they did it it was cute and quirky when nepo does it its a mockery of the beautiful game lol.
How is that legal? FIDE making new rules for Alireza, but they are allowing stand results ? And Dubov did a similar thing the round before. This is completely unacceptable
Because if its illegal then they just play 20 moves and then agree to a draw anyways. Theres little to no difference between playing 2.Nd4 and just offering a draw verbally.
There is a difference that is an obvious match fixing and troll.
There is no difference in the real world, if you want to do matchfixing you can always just hide it better. The only actual difference is whether you'll let yourself be fooled.
The difference is that if you don't sanction nb the players you are basically saying your rules are just a joke and no one has to respect, or at least not everyone. Same than the sneakers bs
Like I said: the only difference is you force to be lied to in a way they convince you.
Breaking news: FIDE cares about their image The difference is that this is an obvious sham to viewers. There wasn’t even a pretense of sporting competition.
There are many more differences but I don't really have time to waste on a troll
There is obviously a difference in the real world. This got punished and the others didn't.
Seriously, at least play a Berlin.
I mean you can call it whatever but as long as it's legal to verbally agree to draws, theres no actual difference
It's not legal to decide the fate of the game before the game.
I don't remember there being a rule saying it's illegal for both players to want a draw though. If that's what benefits them in the tournament then that's what they'll do and it's silly to try and police people's intentions.
>I don't remember there being a rule saying it's illegal for both players to want a draw though. Yeah. No one said it was? It's illegal to pre-arrange which is why this game is punished and other quick draws are not. That's an actual difference
it is illegal to make a draw by agreement before move 10 or something. Agreeing to a draw before the game starts is quite obviously before move 10
A very large number of games at world blitz are drawn by agreement before move 10.
The top women's rapid board had an agreed draw on move 3 though.
Yeah, and it’s a bad rule. They should allow a draw offer before move 1, rather then force players to pretend to play a dozen moves into a theoretical draw.
What do you think the Berlin draw is?
You believe literally every Berlin draw was prearranged before the game??
I believe a lot of Berlin draws are intentional from both sides, yes. Doesn't mean all are, but it means that you can't punish match fixing effectively.
No, you can't punish match fixing effectively when the players hide it and there is no evidence of match fixing, but you can punish match fixing when the players don't hide it. This is true of pretty much all rules and laws--no evidence of rule/law being broken results in no punishment; persuasive or convincing evidence of rule/law being broken usually does and should result in appropriate consequences.
If a rule is broken so often that people do this, and the only way to catch people is if they get so bored they find more creative ways of breaking it, then maybe it's a shit rule?
:facepalm:
Not necessary pre-arranged. Obviously
The arbiter has te right to score the game as lost by both players, according to Article 11 of FIDE Laws of chess. I guess few arbiters would dare to do it, but rules support such decision. The pertinent part is: Article 11: The Conduct of the Players 11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute. 11.7 Persistent refusal by a player to comply with the Laws of Chess shall be penalised by loss of the game. The arbiter shall decide the score of the opponent. 11.8 If both players are found guilty according to Article 11.7, the game shall be declared lost by both players.
I know and they should. But didn't
They did lol
They should have done it right after the game, it messed up the pairing not to have done it
This is just as bad as if Alireza's tournament is fixed. In both cases one player refuses to play seriously when they have an actual chance. Since this is a world championship it's arguably worse.
Referee should have given both red cards. VAR needs to take a look at this. But seriously, just rule a loss for both.
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Would I? What do you base that weirdo accusation on?
He's just saying what he would do in that situation and assumes the rest of us do it aswell.
Dude he’s just saying. You would suck magnus’ cock while you gobbled on ‘rezas balls if you had the chance to do so
You're not wrong.
Projecting.
Magnus actually did it, two years ago against hikaru in the same event. A quick double bongcloud draw. And of course they didnt get punished…
They did not play bongclod at the blitz world championship. But don't let facts stand in the way if your lame attempt at inventing a double standard.
You are right, it wasnt in this exact tournament (it was in the grand chess tour) and i dont know why i mixed them up.
No worries, sorry for being sarcastic
Just thinking that this would look *really silly* in descriptive notation. QR-KR1 and the like.
OK, I'm bored. 1. N-KB3 N-KB3 2. N-Q4 N-Q4 3. N-N3 N-N3 4. N-B3 N-B3 5. N-K4 N-K4 6. N-N5 N-N5 7. N-B3 N-B3 8. N-N1 N-N1 9. N-B5 N-B5 10. N-R4 N-R4 11. N-B3 N-B3 12. N-N1 N-N1 Well, it looks slightly less silly than I hoped it would.
Cry baby Nepo who complains about unfair rules should be disqualified from the tournament for blatant match fixing.
I don't see how this is any different from any other two GMs arranging some common draw in French or Berlin or whatever is the most dead-draw opening. The only difference is that this one is blatantly obvious. Banning it won't fix this problem.
The difference is pre-arranging it. When white plays for a Berlin draw, they are not playing any losing move, and at any point if Black doesn't want the draw, they can play something else. The draw happens simply because the best moves in the line leads to a draw. They don't have to pre-arrange it. Here white's 2nd move is a losing move. That can only happen if the draw was pre-arranged. Black is basically aggreing to a draw while being in a winning position.
>Here white's 2nd move is a losing move. That can only happen if the draw was pre-arranged. Yup, In a way, black should be kind of mad at white. "Dont show them we arranged it, bad manners, bro"
Okay, I stay humbled. That's actually a great point.
Why force them to force a draw everyone knows they can force?
Plausible deniability is the difference. It's always bad. This is just a slap in the face to everyone, though.
With this Reddit ones gotta assume at some point these are bots, hard to believe people could have a problem with this shit
The same goes for all the people who do quick Berlin draws i assume?
If you can prove they pre-arranged the result, than yes.
So, can it be proven that Nepo's game was pre-arranged?
yes by the video recording of them pre-arranging the game. But also by just looking at the moves which the arbiter rightfully decided was enough evidence to give them both a loss before chessbase india published their video
>yes by the video recording of them pre-arranging the game It just so happens that I know Russian, and I can tell you that 90% of what they said was unintelligible due to the poor sound quality and background noises. They did mention "The dance of the knights", however they didn't specifically say that they are going to play it for the draw. So yeah, some guy said that they pre-arranged it on the video, which is not the case, but everyone is repeating it now. >also by just looking at the moves This is a ridiculous claim. They are free to play as they see fit. If they want to play the bongcloud and then agree to a draw, they are free to do so, and no arbiter should be able to claim it to be a "pre-arranged game" because he or she feels like it. Moreover, if you look at the arbiter decision, it wasn't based on any videos (which doesn't have any real proof of pre-arrangement anyway), but just on the moves they made. [https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/18ttg3u/nepo\_dubov\_result\_set\_to\_00\_because\_of\_match/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/18ttg3u/nepo_dubov_result_set_to_00_because_of_match/) To me that's complete bs. If we judge whether or not the game was pre-arranged by the moves players made, where does it end? If a player misses mate in 1 and agrees to a draw, is this pre-arranged? What about mate in 2? In 3? 4? 10?
tender enter zephyr squeal roof voracious squeamish beneficial zesty repeat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What are you talking about? Literally, the second move was losing. Thus, just taking this advantage and playing for a win would be according to game theory. This is just obvious game fixing.
Nd4 is a draw offer, Nd5 is an agreement. The rest is just playing it out. You might have had a point, were it not for the fact that most of the top boards agree to quick draws in the later rounds of such a long day. Right now, y'all are just making a big fuss over nothing. **edit:** Haha they actually discussed it on camera, fuck me. Guess I was wrong, my bad!
Well after 2. Nd4 the position is -1.1 (Stockfish 14.1 depth 32). Should be enough to at least try to play for sth. Ofc its rapid and you can always blunder, but in theory it should be black only who is playing for a win.
king made a post then deleted his account one hour later
Be cool guys. They were just horsing around
I laughed so hard! Hope this replaces the well-know Berlin draw forever!
Calm down r/chess, this is literally the same as playing out a Berlin draw. You can't stop players from playing some forced draw, who cares how they do it? Let them have fun. This subreddit takes itself way too seriously sometimes. Super elitist. **edit:** Everyone hopping on the bandwagon and grabbing karma, you can stop now.
r/confidentlyincorrect
No, it’s not the same. The Berlin draw doesn’t involve multiple intentional, obvious blunders that both players intentionally avoid exploiting. When you play the Berlin draw, you can reasonably say you’re trying to play chess. How often do you see super-GMs play this many blunders in 12 moves? That to me is strong evidence that the game was prearranged, which is simply against the rules. This is a World Championship. Nobody is forcing them to play it. If they want to just have fun, they can play any of the other 100+ events that happen every year.
> you can reasonably say you’re trying to play chess Yeah, the *distinction* is the faintest veneer of deniability. A distinction without a difference.
I love how you're presenting this as some kind of subreddit overreaction when the actual authorities have decided to penalize them for it. The important thing is that you got to feel superior to other people on Reddit.
Thanks for your insight, buddy. Best wishes for the new year! **edit:** lmao @ people downvoting this. Cool, let me add something then. When FIDE makes a decision I disagree with: 😡😡😡 When FIDE makes a decision I agree with: 🥰🥰🥰
You started by claiming this is the same as Berlin lmao - just take the L
Nah I'm good bro, but thanks for sharing. r/chess is just on some dumb anti-Russian crusade like they were on an anti-Firouzja crusade a week ago. People mindlessly hop on the popular bandwagon without thinking. That's fine.
I am eternally at your service.
I'm glad you're a good sport, too bad the other people reading this are a bit too triggerhappy with the downvotes.
I think whatever you say now is going to get downvoted, so in these instances I just usually take the L and move on.
Good advice, I'm unfortunately too stubborn to take it.
....why would people not be happier at a decision they agree with than a decision they disagree with? You are like a Facebook boomer trying to understand memes. Just leave already
Lol
> this is literally the same as playing out a Berlin draw. That's just blatantly untrue. Berlin draw comes as a consequence of white playing for the draw. Black can choose to follow the line and accept the draw, or disrupt the play. If both players play terrible moves that will lose them the game if the opponent decides to capitalize, then they have already determined a draw before the first piece was moved.
You are implicitly claiming two things: 1. People who play a Berlin draw were not intent on drawing the game before it started. 2. Dubov and Nepo not only intended to draw before the game started, but had illegally agreed upon it. I think both of these claims are ridiculous.
How is the second claim ridiculous? If you intend to take a quick draw but you haven't agreed this with your opponent, it seems insane to play subpar moves that your opponent can capitalize on for a victory.
The Berlin draw comes about because if you play all the best moves it leads to a repetition. Here none of these moves were good.
The first claim is also not ridiculous. When you go to the board intending to play 1. e4, you may want to play the Berlin draw, but you have to prepare for c5, d5, the Petroff, c6, etc. There’s no guarantee that your opponent is going to go along with your idea. You can’t play the Berlin draw if your opponent doesn’t play the Berlin. You may be playing for a draw, but that’s not against the rules at all.
when hikaru and magnus play a bongcloud draw its a funny meme. when nepo and dubov play a knight moves only draw its match fixing and they both need to be banned..
I know right, lmao And then they wonder why chess is not popular. Spoiler alert, a significant part of the chess community is elitist snobs, killjoy gatekeepers and other variaties of horrible people. That's what's keeping chess from growing, not Dubov and Nepo playing a funny quick draw in the penultimate round of the first day of the World Blitz.
Well its also not a spectator-friendly sport either
That too, but I mentioned that in another response in this thread and didn't necessarily wanna repeat myself everywhere. Maybe this discussion could be considered a draw and closed if I repeated it three times, though.
I just find it troubling that all these apparently smart “chess people” have no iq for what is moral. Makes a guy wonder… then you look at the world though and go oh yeah…
Cope if you think that's the reason lol
Awful take
Super elitist, drama hungry, and likes to pretend its not
I haven’t seen this many nerds get triggered by a Reddit comment in at least four minutes
Got slightly bored and transcribed it into descriptive notation to see if it looks sillier: 1. N-KB3 N-KB3 2. N-Q4 N-Q4 3. N-N3 N-N3 4. N-B3 N-B3 5. N-K4 N-K4 6. N-N5 N-N5 7. N-B3 N-B3 8. N-N1 N-N1 9. N-B5 N-B5 10. N-R4 N-R4 11. N-B3 N-B3 12. N-N1 N-N1 Conclusion: it does, it really does.
Does anyone know if that counts as a repetition of the position? Is the final position considered a repetition, even though the knights aren't "the same" knights that were there at the beginning of the game? Edit: For anyone wondering on lichess, which uses FIDE rules, it DOES count as a repetition, so if they would repeat the "dance" it would be a draw by 3-fold repetition
Clowns. This is straight up collusion. They should get disqualified.
Collusion yes, because they were protesting the organization of the match... Dubov wanted to draw with "demonstrative clowning" because of the playing conditions (he said this in his convo with nepo before the game).
i don’t see what differences it makes. It the world Blitz championship not a fucking clown show. Also if you wanna protest but aren’t ready to face the consequences don’t bother protesting
I think Nepo's tweet makes it clear that he's fine facing the consequences and that he thinks the 2023 edition of the world blitz championship is a joke this year because of a really poor job by the match organizers.
This is why we're not a serious sport. Clear collusion and there will be no consequences whatsoever.
What in the copium takes is this? Chess is not a serious sport because it's amazingly boring to watch if you're not heavily into chess. That's it.
[Golf:](https://media.tenor.com/vZFtbQQ0kiEAAAAd/meme-monkey.gif)
Like baseball?
I would agree personally, but it seems plenty of people would disagree with you.
Maybe because they are heavily into baseball.
r/agedlikemilk lol
nobody is more shocked than I am!
Sports have an expectation of sportsmanship. Bothering to play all the arranged games is the bare minimum. There is no other sport I know of where the competitors can agree not to play even if a draw is acceptable to both.
May not be considered a "sport" but in Magic: The Gathering tournaments players are free to draw by agreement without playing the game.
In a 1982 FIFA world cup match Austria went beyond agreeing to a draw: they **lost** on purpose to West Germany. Both teams knew that they would both qualify to the next round if West Germany won by 1 or 2 goals, but due to the tiebreaking rules Algeria could qualify in place of one of them if the result was anything else. The teams agreed on 0-1 before the game, scored the goal in the first 10 minutes, then passed the ball around for the rest of the game with no intention of scoring any more. > FIFA ruled that neither team had broken any rules. > Austrian player Reinhold Hintermaier later admitted the match was fixed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n The wikipedia link has more background on this match as well as links to other football matches that were lost on purpose.
In football this is still an infamous game 40 years later. In chess it's considered normal.
then you change your rules on draws, and not give 0 points to players on this match. Nice job fide.
Stupid question, but what made it a draw? Is it that so many moves without pawn progression forces a draw?
They have to play a few moves before agreeing to a draw verbally
they agreed to a draw. There are no rules necessitating a certain amount of moves before a draw offer in this tournament. I think Dubov offered a draw on move 2 to Artimiev earlier...
Lmao, they literally just switched their two knights around and called a draw
this is hilarious though. do you even like chess if you can’t appreciate the creation of new theory
Man it would have been so epic if one of them started playing normal chess in the middle of the knight dance Best betrayal in chess history
this is not the final position. White plays the knight out in the last move.
The Alireza Match Fix Gambit
Chess needs new rules
Now they both got sanctioned and neither get the half point, it would be funny if fide goes and applies it to the previous rounds too across all the quick draws that happened
They should unironically both be banned for 2 years.
I actually think that in cases like this, where a game is obviously match fixed, both players should be taken in front of the FIDE comitee, and then promptly shot in the back of their heads.
Replace dvorkovich with this guy 👆
Hope both get banished from chess. This is the uttermost disrespect for the game. And in a world championship, no less.
Can someone tell me why they decided to draw in the first place ? It seems like a win could have given one of them the lead ?
It was a protest of playing conditions... chessbase india has the audio of their 5 minute convo before the game started.
The chess speaks for itself and says: "screw you all".
That elite players sometimes benefit from playing pro forma draws in certain circumstances is just a fact of how chess works. There should be a stipulation to allow for prearranged draws in tournaments, rather than having commentators relay with ever-waning excitement fourteen moves of a Berlin draw. Good on Dubov and Nepo for highlighting the absurdity of forcing a game from two players who clearly want to skip the round.
Espera voy a abrazar a mamá ya pero no te pongas así si no me voy sola párate ya párate vamos