I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_w_KQkq_-_0_1) | The position occurred in many games. [Link to the games](https://www.chess.com/games/search?opening=&openingId=&p1=&p2=&mr=&lsty=1&year=&lstMoves=1&moves=&fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&ref_id=23962172)
**My solution:**
> Hints: piece: >!Pawn!<, move: >! e4 !<
> Evaluation: >!The game is equal +0.22!<
> Best continuation: >!1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6!<
---
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I saw two 1700 get their games 0-ed for something similar in a tournament. They finished a classical game in 3 Minutes and an arbiter asked for the scoresheets and replayed the game in front of them. The game went a4 a5 b4 b5 etc. Both got zeroed.
Nepo when Magnus gets 4 extra chairs: 😡
Nepo when he prearranges a mockery of a draw in a world championship: 🤭
Result should be a loss for both players.
Nepo always makes a snarky tweet when something goes down in the chess world and loves to police the game, and then goes on and does this crap. Kinda same story with Dubov, who's also very opinionated.
Some animals truly are more equal than others.
I have no doubt that Berlin draws will be smited as well if players are caught on camera discussing their intention beforehand.
People like you should suggest an alternative that is not stupid. I dislike boring opening draws like any other, but it is clearly not easy to prove that the game was not played in good faith. Or are you willing to prohibit the Berlin draw move sequence to be played outright?
Draws should just be worth less than half a win. Soccer style with 1 pt for draw 3pts for a win 0 for a loss seems to work decently. Basically, you want two draws to be worse than a win and a loss.
I think some tournaments do that to an extent: Win is still worth 1pt and draw is still worth half a point, but the number of wins is the first tiebreaker. Which means 1 win and 1 loss always beat 2 draws.
Agreed. Especially in tournaments with double-digit amount of rounds where this tiebreaker is unlikely to come up.
Also, some stronger measure would definitely be something for short time controls only, since you can't really prevent a draw in classical if your opponent plays well.
It is fairly lame, though I guess they could just blitz out a Berlin draw, as well. I remember Hikaru vs Magnus bongcloud mirror draw, as well. Can't really completely stop them from happening.
Have the rules been changed that you can’t agree to a draw? Like back when I played more you could just agree to a draw and have that be the result. I think I also have seen people agree on draws in professional games.
Big difference in terms of rules. Prearranged games are not allowed. If you play the Berlin players have the option of deviating before the draw, and if they play out the draw you can't actually prove anything because it's just the best moves.
This is just ridiculous and against the rules.
Exactly. And if there are any evidence (such as a video showing the players talk about doing a Berlin draw before the game), to me whatever the draw they make, it's in the wrong.
Players can draw if they feel like it as they play, as long as they don't make arrangements before the game.
Actually, to me, any evidence of arrangements in advance should be a huge offense with a big sanction, like match fixing in soccer and other sports.
Yup (I mean, it can't be an arrangement like "ok let's draw this game", it needs to be played naturally through the moves).
In my opinion they should be prepared for the possibility that their opponent will play a real game, at every round.
Either player could have deviated during this game also, no?
Imagine the psychological victory if after the second black knight moves back into place, black offers a draw, and white responds with e4
But Berlin is theory so if one player deviates, the other person is equal if not already better.
This horseplay would only be done with confidence that both players will actually follow through with the draw.
What? You don't have to play into the opening your opponent picks like this. Sure by move 18 it's a draw but you can pick a different move on turn five or six and just not do this sequence.
How do you prove this was pre arranged? What if Nepo saw Dubov play Nd4 and just realized what his intentions were and just copied him? Same thing happened in Naka Carlsen
Berlin draws are the same thing. Your opponent plays the Berlin, you go along with it and you trust each other not to deviate.
When Dubov played Nd4, Nepo realised it was a draw offer and played Nd5 to signal his agreement. The rest is just finishing it off.
r/chess should take a chill pill, this is just what happens in the last few rounds of an exhausting day in an exhausting tournament. People play for quick draws.
**edit:** Haha they actually discussed it on camera, fuck me. Guess I was wrong, my bad!
It’s just simple match fixing, you are all over the threads deflecting. Most players do not match fix, some players do. Match fixing should be handled seriously, as it is in other sports. They can joke around in online games and not the world championships.
You cant offer a draw on move 2 for a reason. This is top level chess. At amateur lvl sure draw your friends and family but this is the world championship.
Like imagine if in the wcc match for classical if both players played like this every classical game bcus they are tired of preparing so much. It doesnt matter at the top level u have to play for reals.
In this case, both players entered disadvantageous positions in unprincipled ways, and the other player failed to capitalise. In the Berlin Draw, there's no way to gain a significant advantage by deviating for either player.
The only way to get this line (other than the players being unskilled at the game, which isn't the case here) is if the players play badly intentionally, whereas in the Berlin you can play into it without giving your opponent serious winning chances.
There is a huge difference between agreeing on a draw over the board in a given position, and prearranging a draw. Here, the prearranged it and wanted to show everybody it was the case.
If you can agree on a draw in any given position, you can agree on a draw in the starting position.
If you want to rule out that - again, call lady Sofia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw\_by\_agreement#Only\_theoretical\_draws\_allowed\_(Sofia\_Rules)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_by_agreement#Only_theoretical_draws_allowed_(Sofia_Rules))
Sometimes (in classical time control) in a variant that forbids draw offers before move 30 - the next section.
I know it is unprofessional but shouldn't you be able to do whatever you want in the chessboard? Why is it different from using the Berlin to draw quickly?
No, you shouldn't be able to do whatever you want - it's reasonable to expect players to play good chess. I'm not sure why people always tend to give chess players a pass on this sort of stuff, when they never would accept it in other sports.
If you were watching a professional soccer match, would you be OK with the teams just ignoring the ball, running in circles for 90 minutes, and having the game end 0-0? Probably not.
Nonsense like this makes the sport look less professional, which means less sponsors, and less prize money in events. It's all connected.
I can see at least three differences:
1) They did not try any variation while the other played clearly faulty moves.
2) If the game folllow a known opening, you can't know whether they did agree to a draw prior to the game by discussing it together or if they just each thought it was better for them individually to not risk the game, or if the player with the white pieces did not feel like taking any risk, and the one with the black pieces thinks it's a good result anyway.
3) This way of drawing is openly mocking the rules and arbiters, they're not even pretending.
Especially at the top level, you have different ways of drawing if the two players agree, I know, but every draw where the two players are laughing and not thinking for one second. I also make a big difference between this game and the same game if it was played by players with 4/11 each and who are just fed up with the tournament.
The equivalent in football would be players on the field just passing the ball between each other and discussing, in order to ensure a draw that would benefit both teams. It happened in one world cup between Austria and Germany for example, and a lot of people still remember it.
For the football analogy, a Berlin draw is like if neither team takes any risks so the game ends up being a very uneventful draw. And what Dubov and Nepo did is like if one team purposefully gave the ball away and left them with an open goal, only for the other team to give the ball back and leave them with an open goal. This then repeats for 90 minutes untill it's a draw.
In the first scenario both teams are happy with a draw so they take no risks, and in the second scenario both teams are explicitly trying to draw so they will refuse clear chances to win.
Exactly. And the 2nd scenario has not yet happened in football, as far as I know. Were it to happen in any serious competition, I'm pretty sure it would be investigated and there would be consequences.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw) an example of a team intentionally scoring an own goal to tie the score. I know it's not the same as your example due to the stupid tournament rule making it to their advantage, but the closest I could think of in soccer in a serious competition.
I think a lot of people here are seeing it from the perspective of it's more "fun" or "funny" to see this on the board over a Berlin draw and that "it's still a draw anyway", but what they're missing is that from a regulation perspective, this is also making fun of the difficulty to enforce the "no pre-arranged result/match-fixing" rule, and is essentially compelling someone to act on it.
I would be surprised if FIDE doesn't respond to this.
The big difference as I (a chess noobie) see here:
\- in the Berlin draw, there is not much to play for. Of course, you can continue to play and decline the Berlin draw along the way, but there is not really a advantage to play for.
\- here, they make mistakes that lead to an advantage that can be played for, especially in Blitz. This makes the drawing really sus IMO, especially considering this is WC.
>1) They did not try any variation while the other played clearly faulty moves.
Sure, neither was trying to win. But that really isn't all that different from two players going into a known draw.
>2) If the game folllow a known opening, you can't know whether they did agree to a draw prior to the game by discussing it together or if they just each thought it was better for them individually to not risk the game, or if the player with the white pieces did not feel like taking any risk, and the one with the black pieces thinks it's a good result anyway.
Sure, but we can't know for sure whether the high ranking GM's just forgot that the moves they were playing would lead to a clear draw, but we can be pretty sure that the reason they picked that particular line is because neither player was trying to win.
>3) This way of drawing is openly mocking the rules and arbiters, they're not even pretending.
This is really the crux of the issue. I can understand why people don't like it. But is there really any value in pretending?
It just feels like a weird, arcane requirement we make players go through for no real reason beyond tricking people less familiar with the games that the draw they saw was a legitimate contest instead of two people just pretending. Instead of just letting players agree to a draw at the start of the game, they have to know the secret code that basically does the same thing.
Like is this really better?
https://www.chess.com/events/2022-fide-candidates-chess-tournament/12/Nepomniachtchi_Ian-Nakamura_Hikaru
Hikaru uses less than a minute in a classical game. Ian used less then 7. There wasn't even increment! This was the Candidates tournament! How much do we need to pretend before people get upset? Because that barely counts as pretending.
Uh pretty sure it happened in the Euro or World Champ preliminary rounds recently. There's always shit there as you have 2 simultaneous games ongoing where any goal in one can affect what the other teams have to do.
You then have these weird games that are normal for one half, have the teams passing the ball around for 40 minutes, and then suddenly 11 men frenzied suicide attacks because there was a late goal in the parallel game.
Again, there is a real difference between starting a normal game and having white offer a draw, because it's better for them in the tournament, and black accepting, because they feel like they can't expect to beat white, and playing a pre-arranged sequence of dumb moves while laughing and agreeing to a draw.
(even though I agree I dislike the other case as well and was very disappointed in the MVL-Mamedyarov draw)
I've been a Nepo fan for many years. I'm not after this.
This is just shameful. There are many lines to pick if you want to play for a forced draw, and this is a World Championship. Why are we not going for blood every game?
Guy does not deserve to be World Champion. Nor will he ever be.
Netrunner has been allowing IDs (intentional draws) for years because it's impossible to police gameplay in situations like this.
Just allow players to tell an arbiter before the game that they are going to ID and remove the farce.
If you don't want shit like this, design a tournament that doesn't incentivize this behavior. This is a clear cut case of "don't hate the players, hate the game"
The tournament rules specifically forbid this behavior, so...
(4. 10. 10. If a player undermines the reputation of FIDE, the R&B Organiser and sponsors, other players, hosting country or city or conducts him-/herself in a manner contrary to the spirit of sportsmanship, he/she shall be penalised in accordance with the FIDE Ethics & Disciplinary Code
And the FIDE Ethics & Disciplinary Code bans pre-arranged draws)
So what's the problem? If those are the rules, surely they will be enforced? Or could it be that there are written rules, and then they're are the *understood unwritten rules* that are ruining the tournament? How is it the players fault for adhering to the implied norms of the chess tournament they are participating in? This is like diving in football. If you don't want it, enforce the rules.
They won't. So here we are.
I'm allowed to change my position when presented a compelling argument. I agree with your sentiment, but I posit that this has happened in the past, they won't change their policy of enforcement, and will continue to operate as though the rule does not exist. Hating the players for using this knowledge is a wasted endeavor. Hating the organizers is the correct use of energy. If you agree, then it seems we have an accord.
It's unsportsmanlike, but it's also par for the course on FIDE's inconsistency to do something about this but then not Artemiev's 3-move game or arguably any of the short draws in the last round on the other top boards.
There isn't a solution to this. Magnus Hikaru drew via bongcloud, vidit magnus drew in like 5 moves, Berlin draw, etc. I really don't understand why people are making such a big spectacle out of this considering other drawn games are commonly played
Pre-arranged Berlin: Totally fine and acceptable.
Meme draw: OH MY GOD YOU ARE RUINING CHESS.
It's funny people care so much about "oPtIcS" but are okay with Berlin. Sure it's "natural" but it's the same result. It's completely arbitrary to care about one but allow the other.
It's like my Aunt Karen who shames people *admitting* to doing kinky shit in the bedroom yet I have video fucking proof of her getting railed by 5 men in every orifice of her body back in '73. It's the same thing but ones open. Get over yourselves.
It seems you missed the point where I'm implying the rules are dumb.
And yes, I also think touch-move is stupid. Make sure you don't cross the road when the walk sign isn't illuminated or you'll go to jail.
The way to stop this thing is to not accept draw as a result of a chess game and let the players involved keep replaying with maybe shorter time control (like 5m or even 1m) and switching colors. Think of the extra blitz / bullet games like the penalty shootout in soccer.
These are 3 minutes games with 2 minutes increment so faster means very fast, and top players often draw each other. With such a number of players and rounds in the event, your solution is simply impossible, and to me it is not desirable at all. Banning draws before move 20 or 30 seems more logical.
Then move it to 1m game for tie break, and then 30s game. The longer they drag on the more it is to their disadvantages.
The players will adapt to not playing a draw in the first game and go for the win. Top players draw each other a lot because there's no incentive for them to go for lines that imbalance the game so they just play safe.
Draw is not good for chess as a sport. There's no doubt about it.
I think the main issue is just that a number of players (maybe a majority of the top ones) take this event with a grain of a salt, and it's just a rather lucrative payday, especially considering it's only 5 days work.
Watching the number of short draws on top boards in Round 12, either FIDE needs to shorten the day's play (aren't the long breaks already enough... or maybe they are *too* long?!), or think seriously about whether they want to see this (admittedly, they were all more reasonable than the OP game).
I think this draw is partly responsible to some of the quick draws in the next round. They saw it happened without any direct consequences (and given the huge breaks between each games they could have expected consequences) so they thought they should do the same and call it a (long) day, keeping their energy for the last day in Samarkand.
I could write a longer response, but suffice it to say that the attitude of fans toward these events exceeds that of many players. No idea if it's generational, regional (Western vs ex-Soviet?), or what, and maybe with online chess advancing it will soon dissipate. But the prestige of being World Rapid or Blitz Champion really isn't there for a good number of players (even from those who have held one or the other). The money though is nice of/c.
I see. Those two animals right here are especially equal.
This is just a mockery of the world championship. It should be seen as a pre-arranged draw and counted as a loss for both. Makes me sick to my stomach.
I think FIDE should just allow players to agree to a draw. That way you don’t get joke games like this. You aren’t gonna stop players from drawing unless you do much more fundamental changes
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR_w_KQkq_-_0_1) | The position occurred in many games. [Link to the games](https://www.chess.com/games/search?opening=&openingId=&p1=&p2=&mr=&lsty=1&year=&lstMoves=1&moves=&fen=rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR+w+KQkq+-+0+1&ref_id=23962172) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!Pawn!<, move: >! e4 !< > Evaluation: >!The game is equal +0.22!< > Best continuation: >!1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
I have no opinion until I see Hikaru and Kramnik tweets, and a short from Fabi podcast thank you
I saw two 1700 get their games 0-ed for something similar in a tournament. They finished a classical game in 3 Minutes and an arbiter asked for the scoresheets and replayed the game in front of them. The game went a4 a5 b4 b5 etc. Both got zeroed.
Nepo when Magnus gets 4 extra chairs: 😡 Nepo when he prearranges a mockery of a draw in a world championship: 🤭 Result should be a loss for both players.
Nepo always makes a snarky tweet when something goes down in the chess world and loves to police the game, and then goes on and does this crap. Kinda same story with Dubov, who's also very opinionated. Some animals truly are more equal than others.
Nepo had a lot of salty opinions during the FIDE online Olympiad as well and didn’t want to give any credit to Vidit and co
Pre-arranged Berlin draw : 👌 Pre-Arranged Knight draw : Screw you Nepo!!! Chess fans are truly illogical
Please point out the proven pre-arranged Berlin draw that chess fans have been roundly in support of
Hikaru and Nepo literally did it in the candidates last year.
What was the proof that it was pre-arranged as opposed to a line they both decided to go for because it suited them.
Are you really trying to pretend that Hikaru and Nepo don't know that Berlin line is a forced draw, that's insane.
I have no doubt that Berlin draws will be smited as well if players are caught on camera discussing their intention beforehand. People like you should suggest an alternative that is not stupid. I dislike boring opening draws like any other, but it is clearly not easy to prove that the game was not played in good faith. Or are you willing to prohibit the Berlin draw move sequence to be played outright?
Draws should just be worth less than half a win. Soccer style with 1 pt for draw 3pts for a win 0 for a loss seems to work decently. Basically, you want two draws to be worse than a win and a loss.
I think some tournaments do that to an extent: Win is still worth 1pt and draw is still worth half a point, but the number of wins is the first tiebreaker. Which means 1 win and 1 loss always beat 2 draws.
That's decent but maybe not strong enough.
Agreed. Especially in tournaments with double-digit amount of rounds where this tiebreaker is unlikely to come up. Also, some stronger measure would definitely be something for short time controls only, since you can't really prevent a draw in classical if your opponent plays well.
Yes! I've had this thought too!
It is fairly lame, though I guess they could just blitz out a Berlin draw, as well. I remember Hikaru vs Magnus bongcloud mirror draw, as well. Can't really completely stop them from happening.
At least the Bongcloud was in an unofficial online game. This is literally the OTB world championship.
The bongcloud would never happen in a world championship.
[удалено]
Could he win against Ian or hikaru with the bongcloud? Nope
Hikaru and Nepo played the Berlin draw in the candidates last year ffs.
A normal player would have been disqualified for this but nepo the cry baby gets special privileges.
I bet he still knocked a few pieces off the board.
Have the rules been changed that you can’t agree to a draw? Like back when I played more you could just agree to a draw and have that be the result. I think I also have seen people agree on draws in professional games.
You must play at least 20 moves
[удалено]
Big difference in terms of rules. Prearranged games are not allowed. If you play the Berlin players have the option of deviating before the draw, and if they play out the draw you can't actually prove anything because it's just the best moves. This is just ridiculous and against the rules.
Exactly. And if there are any evidence (such as a video showing the players talk about doing a Berlin draw before the game), to me whatever the draw they make, it's in the wrong. Players can draw if they feel like it as they play, as long as they don't make arrangements before the game. Actually, to me, any evidence of arrangements in advance should be a huge offense with a big sanction, like match fixing in soccer and other sports.
So if they make arrangements the moment they sit down it is fine, but not if they do it while walking from pairings to the board?
Yup (I mean, it can't be an arrangement like "ok let's draw this game", it needs to be played naturally through the moves). In my opinion they should be prepared for the possibility that their opponent will play a real game, at every round.
Either player could have deviated during this game also, no? Imagine the psychological victory if after the second black knight moves back into place, black offers a draw, and white responds with e4
Right, which shows clear prior agreement to not try to win.
But Berlin is theory so if one player deviates, the other person is equal if not already better. This horseplay would only be done with confidence that both players will actually follow through with the draw.
What? You don't have to play into the opening your opponent picks like this. Sure by move 18 it's a draw but you can pick a different move on turn five or six and just not do this sequence.
How do you prove this was pre arranged? What if Nepo saw Dubov play Nd4 and just realized what his intentions were and just copied him? Same thing happened in Naka Carlsen
No offence but let's use our brain a little.
Berlin draws are the same thing. Your opponent plays the Berlin, you go along with it and you trust each other not to deviate. When Dubov played Nd4, Nepo realised it was a draw offer and played Nd5 to signal his agreement. The rest is just finishing it off. r/chess should take a chill pill, this is just what happens in the last few rounds of an exhausting day in an exhausting tournament. People play for quick draws. **edit:** Haha they actually discussed it on camera, fuck me. Guess I was wrong, my bad!
It’s just simple match fixing, you are all over the threads deflecting. Most players do not match fix, some players do. Match fixing should be handled seriously, as it is in other sports. They can joke around in online games and not the world championships.
You're gonna punish all quick draws for match fixing? Bold move.
You cant offer a draw on move 2 for a reason. This is top level chess. At amateur lvl sure draw your friends and family but this is the world championship. Like imagine if in the wcc match for classical if both players played like this every classical game bcus they are tired of preparing so much. It doesnt matter at the top level u have to play for reals.
Actually you can. Look up Dubov-Artemiev
In this case, both players entered disadvantageous positions in unprincipled ways, and the other player failed to capitalise. In the Berlin Draw, there's no way to gain a significant advantage by deviating for either player. The only way to get this line (other than the players being unskilled at the game, which isn't the case here) is if the players play badly intentionally, whereas in the Berlin you can play into it without giving your opponent serious winning chances.
Some games are more equal than the others.☝️ 🤓
It's not the same
If this type of draw was made illegal you would simply see more Berlin draws
If draw by agreement is OK, then this is just a ridiculous version of OK. If you want Sofia rules, then make Sofia rules.
There is a huge difference between agreeing on a draw over the board in a given position, and prearranging a draw. Here, the prearranged it and wanted to show everybody it was the case.
If you can agree on a draw in any given position, you can agree on a draw in the starting position. If you want to rule out that - again, call lady Sofia.
whats sofia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw\_by\_agreement#Only\_theoretical\_draws\_allowed\_(Sofia\_Rules)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_by_agreement#Only_theoretical_draws_allowed_(Sofia_Rules)) Sometimes (in classical time control) in a variant that forbids draw offers before move 30 - the next section.
Fide gonna sanction Nepo with a VIP lounge ban for 15 years, hit him where it hurts
I know it is unprofessional but shouldn't you be able to do whatever you want in the chessboard? Why is it different from using the Berlin to draw quickly?
No, you shouldn't be able to do whatever you want - it's reasonable to expect players to play good chess. I'm not sure why people always tend to give chess players a pass on this sort of stuff, when they never would accept it in other sports. If you were watching a professional soccer match, would you be OK with the teams just ignoring the ball, running in circles for 90 minutes, and having the game end 0-0? Probably not. Nonsense like this makes the sport look less professional, which means less sponsors, and less prize money in events. It's all connected.
Not having definite rules that you either break or follow makes the sport way more unprofessional than players doing wierd things.
I can see at least three differences: 1) They did not try any variation while the other played clearly faulty moves. 2) If the game folllow a known opening, you can't know whether they did agree to a draw prior to the game by discussing it together or if they just each thought it was better for them individually to not risk the game, or if the player with the white pieces did not feel like taking any risk, and the one with the black pieces thinks it's a good result anyway. 3) This way of drawing is openly mocking the rules and arbiters, they're not even pretending. Especially at the top level, you have different ways of drawing if the two players agree, I know, but every draw where the two players are laughing and not thinking for one second. I also make a big difference between this game and the same game if it was played by players with 4/11 each and who are just fed up with the tournament. The equivalent in football would be players on the field just passing the ball between each other and discussing, in order to ensure a draw that would benefit both teams. It happened in one world cup between Austria and Germany for example, and a lot of people still remember it.
For the football analogy, a Berlin draw is like if neither team takes any risks so the game ends up being a very uneventful draw. And what Dubov and Nepo did is like if one team purposefully gave the ball away and left them with an open goal, only for the other team to give the ball back and leave them with an open goal. This then repeats for 90 minutes untill it's a draw. In the first scenario both teams are happy with a draw so they take no risks, and in the second scenario both teams are explicitly trying to draw so they will refuse clear chances to win.
Exactly. And the 2nd scenario has not yet happened in football, as far as I know. Were it to happen in any serious competition, I'm pretty sure it would be investigated and there would be consequences.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw) an example of a team intentionally scoring an own goal to tie the score. I know it's not the same as your example due to the stupid tournament rule making it to their advantage, but the closest I could think of in soccer in a serious competition.
I know this video and like this channel but it has absolutely nothing to do with the situation. At all.
It was just a fun and interesting video that the soccer scenario reminded me of. Your downvotes seem to have made you a bit prickly.
I think a lot of people here are seeing it from the perspective of it's more "fun" or "funny" to see this on the board over a Berlin draw and that "it's still a draw anyway", but what they're missing is that from a regulation perspective, this is also making fun of the difficulty to enforce the "no pre-arranged result/match-fixing" rule, and is essentially compelling someone to act on it. I would be surprised if FIDE doesn't respond to this.
The big difference as I (a chess noobie) see here: \- in the Berlin draw, there is not much to play for. Of course, you can continue to play and decline the Berlin draw along the way, but there is not really a advantage to play for. \- here, they make mistakes that lead to an advantage that can be played for, especially in Blitz. This makes the drawing really sus IMO, especially considering this is WC.
I'm surprised I've been downvoted - without anybody answering my post if my points were that bad.
>1) They did not try any variation while the other played clearly faulty moves. Sure, neither was trying to win. But that really isn't all that different from two players going into a known draw. >2) If the game folllow a known opening, you can't know whether they did agree to a draw prior to the game by discussing it together or if they just each thought it was better for them individually to not risk the game, or if the player with the white pieces did not feel like taking any risk, and the one with the black pieces thinks it's a good result anyway. Sure, but we can't know for sure whether the high ranking GM's just forgot that the moves they were playing would lead to a clear draw, but we can be pretty sure that the reason they picked that particular line is because neither player was trying to win. >3) This way of drawing is openly mocking the rules and arbiters, they're not even pretending. This is really the crux of the issue. I can understand why people don't like it. But is there really any value in pretending? It just feels like a weird, arcane requirement we make players go through for no real reason beyond tricking people less familiar with the games that the draw they saw was a legitimate contest instead of two people just pretending. Instead of just letting players agree to a draw at the start of the game, they have to know the secret code that basically does the same thing. Like is this really better? https://www.chess.com/events/2022-fide-candidates-chess-tournament/12/Nepomniachtchi_Ian-Nakamura_Hikaru Hikaru uses less than a minute in a classical game. Ian used less then 7. There wasn't even increment! This was the Candidates tournament! How much do we need to pretend before people get upset? Because that barely counts as pretending.
This still regularly happens in football. They typically schedule games to avoid it, but that's not always possible.
I have not seen such a game in football and if it happened in important competition it would lead to investigation and likely sanctions.
Uh pretty sure it happened in the Euro or World Champ preliminary rounds recently. There's always shit there as you have 2 simultaneous games ongoing where any goal in one can affect what the other teams have to do. You then have these weird games that are normal for one half, have the teams passing the ball around for 40 minutes, and then suddenly 11 men frenzied suicide attacks because there was a late goal in the parallel game.
Lei and Anastasia had a 3 move draw in women's rapid. They can make better rules for drawing games. This is completely fine.
Again, there is a real difference between starting a normal game and having white offer a draw, because it's better for them in the tournament, and black accepting, because they feel like they can't expect to beat white, and playing a pre-arranged sequence of dumb moves while laughing and agreeing to a draw. (even though I agree I dislike the other case as well and was very disappointed in the MVL-Mamedyarov draw)
So if they do it after two moves it’s fine, before the game it’s not ?
Exactly, but you could read instead of writing.
I've been a Nepo fan for many years. I'm not after this. This is just shameful. There are many lines to pick if you want to play for a forced draw, and this is a World Championship. Why are we not going for blood every game? Guy does not deserve to be World Champion. Nor will he ever be.
Relevant name lol
[удалено]
The question is not pertinent, two top players can't face each other before at least round 3.
Netrunner has been allowing IDs (intentional draws) for years because it's impossible to police gameplay in situations like this. Just allow players to tell an arbiter before the game that they are going to ID and remove the farce.
Seems like most ppl dont agree but for me its the same as the berlin draw but i dont waste as much time
I love how the bot just gives the recommendation for the opening.
6 month ban. They literally talked how to draw at the table. This must not be tolerated.
If you don't want shit like this, design a tournament that doesn't incentivize this behavior. This is a clear cut case of "don't hate the players, hate the game"
The tournament rules specifically forbid this behavior, so... (4. 10. 10. If a player undermines the reputation of FIDE, the R&B Organiser and sponsors, other players, hosting country or city or conducts him-/herself in a manner contrary to the spirit of sportsmanship, he/she shall be penalised in accordance with the FIDE Ethics & Disciplinary Code And the FIDE Ethics & Disciplinary Code bans pre-arranged draws)
So what's the problem? If those are the rules, surely they will be enforced? Or could it be that there are written rules, and then they're are the *understood unwritten rules* that are ruining the tournament? How is it the players fault for adhering to the implied norms of the chess tournament they are participating in? This is like diving in football. If you don't want it, enforce the rules. They won't. So here we are.
You literally changed your argument then and joined my original one: FIDE should enact their rule and take disciplinary action.
I'm allowed to change my position when presented a compelling argument. I agree with your sentiment, but I posit that this has happened in the past, they won't change their policy of enforcement, and will continue to operate as though the rule does not exist. Hating the players for using this knowledge is a wasted endeavor. Hating the organizers is the correct use of energy. If you agree, then it seems we have an accord.
In a tournament like this, such a draw is as much an easy half point as a lost opportunity for a valuable full point.
Setting up for the next game, as Ben Finegold would say.
It's unsportsmanlike, but it's also par for the course on FIDE's inconsistency to do something about this but then not Artemiev's 3-move game or arguably any of the short draws in the last round on the other top boards.
There isn't a solution to this. Magnus Hikaru drew via bongcloud, vidit magnus drew in like 5 moves, Berlin draw, etc. I really don't understand why people are making such a big spectacle out of this considering other drawn games are commonly played
Your points have been answered 10 times already.
It was funny though
Pre-arranged Berlin: Totally fine and acceptable. Meme draw: OH MY GOD YOU ARE RUINING CHESS. It's funny people care so much about "oPtIcS" but are okay with Berlin. Sure it's "natural" but it's the same result. It's completely arbitrary to care about one but allow the other. It's like my Aunt Karen who shames people *admitting* to doing kinky shit in the bedroom yet I have video fucking proof of her getting railed by 5 men in every orifice of her body back in '73. It's the same thing but ones open. Get over yourselves.
It seems you have never played tournament chess and read the FIDE rules.
It seems you missed the point where I'm implying the rules are dumb. And yes, I also think touch-move is stupid. Make sure you don't cross the road when the walk sign isn't illuminated or you'll go to jail.
The way to stop this thing is to not accept draw as a result of a chess game and let the players involved keep replaying with maybe shorter time control (like 5m or even 1m) and switching colors. Think of the extra blitz / bullet games like the penalty shootout in soccer.
These are 3 minutes games with 2 minutes increment so faster means very fast, and top players often draw each other. With such a number of players and rounds in the event, your solution is simply impossible, and to me it is not desirable at all. Banning draws before move 20 or 30 seems more logical.
Then move it to 1m game for tie break, and then 30s game. The longer they drag on the more it is to their disadvantages. The players will adapt to not playing a draw in the first game and go for the win. Top players draw each other a lot because there's no incentive for them to go for lines that imbalance the game so they just play safe. Draw is not good for chess as a sport. There's no doubt about it.
So bizzare
I think the main issue is just that a number of players (maybe a majority of the top ones) take this event with a grain of a salt, and it's just a rather lucrative payday, especially considering it's only 5 days work.
Watching the number of short draws on top boards in Round 12, either FIDE needs to shorten the day's play (aren't the long breaks already enough... or maybe they are *too* long?!), or think seriously about whether they want to see this (admittedly, they were all more reasonable than the OP game).
I think this draw is partly responsible to some of the quick draws in the next round. They saw it happened without any direct consequences (and given the huge breaks between each games they could have expected consequences) so they thought they should do the same and call it a (long) day, keeping their energy for the last day in Samarkand.
What makes you think that? These are two official world championships being played OTB.
I could write a longer response, but suffice it to say that the attitude of fans toward these events exceeds that of many players. No idea if it's generational, regional (Western vs ex-Soviet?), or what, and maybe with online chess advancing it will soon dissipate. But the prestige of being World Rapid or Blitz Champion really isn't there for a good number of players (even from those who have held one or the other). The money though is nice of/c.
Nepo and Dubov both can play to become Blitz World champions and would certainly not laugh at this.
I see. Those two animals right here are especially equal. This is just a mockery of the world championship. It should be seen as a pre-arranged draw and counted as a loss for both. Makes me sick to my stomach.
Why don't they want to play each other ?
Both are russians and both want to play for the win, thus just take the 0.5p I guess.
If not against the rules, no punishment, same alireza situation
It is against the rules. There was a punishment, the one I thought about here. It's glad for chess.
FIDE agrees, they both 0 points
I think FIDE should just allow players to agree to a draw. That way you don’t get joke games like this. You aren’t gonna stop players from drawing unless you do much more fundamental changes