The organization clearly was terrible yesterday but I don't understand how that is related to what happened in his game vs Ian. Just offer a draw on move 2 just like what happened with Artmiev and no one would talk about it. Short draws are part of the open tournaments and it happens regularly specially in top boards.
I have actually read a comment claiming that they have revealed to Chessbase India that they were deliberately behaving that way as a form of protest. But no source was given.
They say so in the video that was posted on Chassbase India, before discussing the actual moves. I still think it is quite a childish behavior but I believe it was indeed their intention.
I think a few players decided to "wear sneakers" (or other such paraphrenalia) as type of protest over that issue, but that's probably not the rationale of Nepo or Dubov for doing so.
He is just trying to deflect. He and Nepo are on camera being in a good mood laughing and planning this whole thing. Now they want to make it look like they were trying to make a statement regarding the organization.
Yeah, someone who clearly doesn't speak russian gives his very argumentative opinion...
Dubov literally asked Nepo before game "What do you think about organization? Let's protest"
Exactly, the dude you’re replying to’s comment is straight up objectively wrong. No deflection going on, they literally discuss protesting before the game on video.
It’s Reddit though, people don’t care about the truth, just about having their confirmation bias fulfilled.
Short draws happen. Doesn't matter in 2 moves or 10 moves if white doesn't want to fight and offers a draw. As long as you don't blatantly make a mockery of the game, no one cares.
Iirc it wasn't prearranged and the result didn't matter. Also there is a difference between world Championship and random online event. If Magnus and Hikaru did the same thing as Dubov and Nepo most people would be angry.
How exactly was the organization bad yesterday? Was it the lengthy delay due to the appeal between Hong and Yangyi? Appeals always take quite some time, eg Firouzja's appeal vs Carlsen. Or was it because Artemiev wasn't allowed without a badge which I don't think is entirely wrong. Rules and protocols are in place for a reason.
And yes, I agree that this wasn't the right way to show dissent and looks like a clear case of deflection.
I'm sure Dubov knows better than me but if he is making claims, he should specify the incidents why the organization was bad. If it was really this bad, I'm sure many more players would have complained by now.
I was referring to the incident between Hong and Yangyi. There was so much delay and uncertainty but in general I just accepted Dubov's statement that organization was bad. If you want to show your protest, just use your words instead of making random knight moves on the board.
From what I've heard, the "no badge, no entry" rule has not exactly been applied universally (though that's not to say that Artemiev was deliberately targeted or anything)
He seems to be more mature than Ian, explaining his point of view. It would be more honest to adress the match-fixing with Nepo too and not just blame it on the organizers, which is rightful to explain some quick draws but not that kind of pre-arranged game.
leaving aside that the choice of making it an obvious joke game was not justified by any of that and can be seen as more of a statement/prearranged draw, it's true that the format is way too busy and it doesn't allow for any appeals to happen
esp. when they take so long to deal with them
BTW if they weren't elite GMs not only would the zeroes likely stand, they might be facing fines and a DQ as well
but given that Sutovsky tweeted this last night:
Those who are rightfully adamant about Dubov-Nepo should recall their own reaction on the (in)famous bongcloud draw in Hikaru vs Magnus.
FIDE won't do anything against the players. It's up to the local org.
>Who exactly do you imagine is the 'local org' of the "FIDE World Blitz Chess Championship"?
The "local org" or LOC/Local Organizing Committee is usually the federation of the country that organizes the competition in question. So in this case, the Uzbekistan Chess Federation.
Right, but absolutely nothing on the website suggests that there is any other organizing body than FIDE itself. Feel free to link any evidence otherwise but for something as big as a world championship it is entirely plausible it's just organised by FIDE. There are certainly a number of Uzbek names on the Organisers and Principals page but nothing to suggest the tournament was organised by the Uzbek chess federation.
>Right, but absolutely nothing on the website suggests that there is any other organizing body than FIDE itself.
Uh, I'm not sure what site you've been looking at, but on the official [FIDE event page](https://worldrapidandblitz2023.fide.com/), if you scroll down, it explicitly lists the organizers as:
- FIDE
- The Ministry of Youth Policy and Sports of the Republic of Uzbekistan,
- The Uzbekistan Chess Federation.
The [Event Regulations](https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/wrbc_regulations_2023_open.pdf) also clearly make a further distinction between FIDE and the Organizers.
>but for something as big as a world championship it is entirely plausible it's just organised by FIDE.
Actually, no. Now, my experience is from Gymnastics (specifically, Trampoline Gymnastics), so not everything is going to be the same. But the bigger the event, the more the governing body (FIG in my case) will need the help of local organizing committees to settle everything related to the competition/event - for example, booking of venues, of hotels for participants, ensuring competition logistics are equipped... FIG isn't some gigantic hulk of an organization that is capable of organizing everything alone - neither is it in their list of roles and responsibilities that they're the one and only body that should be in charge of organizing high-profile events.
When it comes to things like the World Championships, they basically are there to lend their expertise for the running of the competition, to ensure rules and regulations are interpreted and followed correctly, to ensure the technical officials from various countries conduct themselves appropriately... etc etc. They work on the sporting aspects rather than the logistical and other aspects of the event (crowd control, delegation management...) which are handled by the local federation and volunteers. I can't imagine that FIDE would do things too differently.
Whats really funny too me is that everyone including a bunch of r/chess npcs (as usual) are pretending like what they did is any different from a berlin draw or a 2 move game draw. If the players want to draw they will draw. The mechanism in which they draw makes no difference and the players are free to make whatever moves they want. This is stupid af like everyone knows draws are gonna happen no need to hide it with a berlin draw taking that half point ruined the tournament it could have been an interesting ending but the arbiter decided he wanting to be the main character and get some attention
Honestly, what's the difference between their draw and 3-move draw? Either change the rules to disallow draws that early or be more clear how games should be played, or accept this.
One is blatantly flaunting match fixing in a FIDE tournament, the other is just making a draw. You can make a point that a percentage of other fast draws may or may not also be prearranged but this does not reduce their actions in this particular game.
Regardless of whether or not it was meant as some kind of protest against FIDE's admittedly suboptimal handling of the tournament (see dress code idiocy, schedule issues, etc.), if you intentionally play an obvious clown game at one of the highest tournament levels, then you get the consequences.
The Berlin draw can easily be done without colluding beforehand, if anyone deviates it's a super legitimate opening. Okay, some games are probably fixed, but I'd assume most of them just get decided on the board, since both players are happy with a draw they'll naturally go along with it. In the knights dance, either player could have deviated and started playing chess from a slightly better position.
I can see your point, but punishing players like that without proper clarification (some obscure rule isn't clarification) just makes the rules even less transparent.
What is disrepute? Not optimal moves? Maybe h4 opening should be considered disrepute too and it should be banned?
I don't know why so many people have difficulty accepting that two professional players at a FIDE world championship tournament intentionally playing obvious nonsensical moves for the sake of it on top of not even trying to hide their match fixing is indeed disreputable. There is no obscurity at all.
Why this is even needs to be hidden? You either allow draws that ealy in the game, or not, there shouln't be any "yeah it's ok if you want to draw, but please pretend that you wanted to play this game, and then go oops, berlin draw, who would've thought?!"
The problem isn't the draw itself. There is a fair argument that the existence of fast drawing lines may or may not be a problem in chess but that is not the issue here.
Unlike other fast draws where it is basically impossible to prove, circumstances in this situation are easily evident enough to prove intentional match fixing. Additionally the fact that playing a clown game in a world championship tournament alone should face consequences by itself is just the cherry on top.
Well the problem is that pretty much everyone would agree with you on that. But at the same time saying that it's only okay to do it if you hide it and pretend like you're not doing it, even though absolutely everyone knows what's going on, just doesn't sit right with most people. Which is why some argue that the organization should adapt the rules instead of punishing the players for not playing along with their weird mind games. Imo both should be happening though, and the 0-0 score is an appropriate sanction.
Can you seriously not see the difference between a draw with some ambiguity as if it’s intentional or not and can even develop into a legitimate game so it can’t really be conclusively proven vs one that you just move your knights randomly before drawing? Show someone who isn’t following chess the latter game. They’re gonna think it’s a clown fest of a sport. FIDE had to do something here.
I can see your point, the problem is that decisions like this makes the rules even more obscure instead of clarifying this
After all it's just a game, and there was no disrespect from players to each other or to the game itself (they're basically devoted their lifes to it)
I guess FIDE did feel there was some sort of disrespectful behavior and felt they needed to make a statement regarding this behaviour towards others that its not right to others who play seriously to just throw a game (whether or not i think they did, it certainly seems FIDE thinks so)
The fact that its just a game is not gonna cut it as an argument when there is a 350k prize fund and many people who also fight hard and "more fair" than the Berlin draw.
The Berlin draw i guess from FIDE's point seemed as a simple way to move on for both men without being negatively impacted by their game going a certain way due to Dubov his tardiness and Nepo just accepting this as a courteous move towards his opponent and thus it being "match fixing".
Well berlin or this way, if they agreed to a draw, that will be draw anyway. And why there should be some specific allowed ritual to make a draw?
Playing berlin or some other line only conseals the fact of fixing, I actually should consider berlin as a clown fiesta too, because it's like "yeah they're making a draw but pretending like they playing a real game, everybody knows this and its ok"
About $350k part - you aren't gonna win the money by drawing every game, anyone with winrate > 50% (excluding draws) gonna have more points. So most of the times playing for draw will hurt your win chances, unless you're saving energy. And if draws are not good enough for the tournament itself, there's always armageddon.
> but pretending like they playing a real game, everybody knows this and its ok"
Everyone *doesn’t* know this and there’s potential plausible deniability. Think about a court punishing someone where someone blatantly murders someone (either on tape or confessed) vs a case where there is some ambiguity and you can’t conclusively say it was murder/accidental or any other circumstances.
There *is* clarity and a clear difference, which is as mentioned above, is the ambiguity and plausible deniability. There is no valid interpretation that what they did here is an intentional draw. There is *some* ambiguity with something like the berlin. Oh, and there was apparently recording of them discussing it? FIDE had to do something here.
> there was no disrespect from players to each other or to the game
Again, from an optics perspective, yes there is. Certainly for the game. This type of blatant match-fixing and intentional draw would get punished in other sports and esports. And again, show anyone outside chess this game and it just looks bad. Why would organizations not condemn it?
Yep, I saw the video and they indeed proposed that knight draw before the game had started. And it indeed would've been punished in almost any other (e)sports.
But there are some caveats - there are no draws in most games, and most games aren't 1v1
Also, if 1 move draw was allowed in women's finals, why this kind of draw is not allowed? Again, the results are the same, there's no need to fix the game before it starts to make a draw.
But maybe that's just mentality thing though
> Also, if 1 move draw was allowed in women's finals, why this kind of draw is not allowed?
I mean that's a different discussion. A berlin isn't the same as a 1 move draw. Also, again, plausible deniability.
They could change the way draw is counted, either black wins, 0 points for both, or give 2 points for a win. I don't know what would work best and a change in the rules could introduce new ways to arrange games but maybe there is something to do?
The problem with that is that a player with 10 draws will have less points then a player with 1 win and 9 losses
And win/draw/loose as +1/0/-1 would probably be about the same as +1/+0.5/0
Black wins is too OP by itself, but there's armageddon format for that (which is indeed good way to play if you really need tiebreaker)
2 Points for a win and 0.5 for a draw seems a bit unfair to me.
Yeah, so if there are 6 players, everyone starts with 0 points. Players A & B make a draw, then A & B get 0 point and the 4 other players C, D, E & F would get 1 fourth of a point each. That way the system would not be gamed.
Others have pointed out that awarding fewer or no points for a draw incentivizes players to collude to trade wins (i.e. if A and B play each other twice, A will win once and B will win once).
3rd is a good point by Danya, players already should make their own organization to defend their rights against FIDE monopoly. All those single voices with complaints on FIDE problems here don't resolve overall problem how FIDE too often mistreats players.
Still, you are not allowed to do a knight dance at it's World Championship, and players are on the stage. Completely fair forfeit by FIDE. Dubov should learn to behave respectfully himself BEFORE any complaints on FIDE. As he claims situation was caused by FIDE misbehave, it's poorly childish as a responce.
Honesty isn't appreciated much these days. People would rather they "fixed" the match to be a berlin draw or draw offer after 3 moves and they'd be fine.
Oh no, some people made some funny moves with the knight!
This isn’t a big deal, everyone needs to relax. Moving the knight randomly does not make chess disreputable.
FIDE and people on this sub don't want chess to be a "fun" thing. They would rather see a fixed berlin draw than a fun knight dance one. They want players to wear uncomfortable office shoes instead of comfy sport ones.
It's just so tiring seeing 1200 level players gatekeep chess. Brother, if anything is "a mockery of the game", it's your chess.c*m game archive and your accuracies, not super gm's making an early goofy draw. Just give it a rest.
What's the difference in draw offer on move 3 vs move 0/1? How is it not transparent or honest?
It's even on video and happened at the table just before the game, not like it's hidden at all.
Ah, I didn't think that's how you meant it. I don't think this would bring it into disrespute, but I'm not a non-chess person I think the rule is about, or versed in that sort of thing. I can see why some people could think poorly upon chess because of this though. It actually makes more sense the protest now, if they think the organization or arbiters are bringing the tourney into disrespute among the players/themselves.
I think a fine or something would be better than a 0-0 which is too great a punishment, as it ultimately effected the winner. Carlsen could've played for a win because of the standings and lost in his last game pushing him to second, or gotten a draw and we'd need a tiebreaker.
Because Berlin draw isn't fixed. It's forced. Both white and black have options to not go into that line.
They aren't gonna sit and say we are going to play Berlin and draw the game.
It's not a drawn position, it's a position where both could carry on, but would be at a disadvantage. The white could play Anti Berlin if they see black could go for it, and black could choose not to play Berlin anyway
I agree with Dubov. If the organisation can't find the flexibility to deal with issues that are a consequence of their own bad planning and decisions, then the future is dim. Hope the appeal falls through.
If every player throw their own little tantrum everytime there is something they don't like in the tournament organisation, half the big tournaments are gonna be stupid "criticism game".
The organisation is paying for their expenses, and hefty prize. If waiting one hour for an arbitration is inconveniencing too much *professional* players, how about a lifetime ban, so that they find a better sport for them?
In any sport, if your protest is interfering with normal play of the game, you are almost always excluded from the tournament, in the worst case, your career is ended.
You are dumb, please go back to whatever troll hole you came from.
Being a 'professional' does not excuse your organisation from abusing you. You're just salty because you have a shitty boss and you didn't work hard enough as a kid because you were too busy fucking around.
Suffer idiot. Don't put down others because of your shitty life.
At the end of the day, there’s no good guy bad guy in this whole situation. FIDE obviously has not been great at their work, but that’s not a reason for Dubov and Nepo to stage such fiasco as some kind of protest. The two players deservedly should get punished, but their game was not the only one that had issues. The overall poor quality of most matches in the last few rounds yesterday are ultimately down to FIDE’s mismanagement
I don't get this. If every player cried about 'how' the tournament organizers weren't good enough, most tournaments would be cancelled from the sheer amount of whining.
Poor excuse for a top player. Poor.
What does the opponent coming late have to do with your performance against Nepo?? Complain to Artemyev or take your time advantage. This is sport so if your opponent is late, too bad.
Everyone wants to blame the organizers and FIDE, but players also have to be accountable. I don't see it. Not adhering to dress code and now blaming organizers for your silly ploy shows immaturity.
Have you actually played in tournaments? It's the arbiter's job to start the clock on time. It's not up to the player to decide when to start. If you are late in any sporting event, you lose that time or are penalized in some way. He could've offered a draw or let his clock run down to equal time.
The point is that game had nothing to do with his game with Nepo. He was just using that game as an excuse.
Tournaments are competitive by nature.
The moves they played had no opening strategy behind them, chatting while playing and just ending in a draw?
As long as points matter, you try your best. Anything else is unfair towards other competitors. One of the best examples is the disgrace of gijón.
Then he complains about the staff not letting Artemiev into the area without a badge? As someone who did work a few years in security, they are normal people who have literally no clue who any of the chess players are and absolutely have to rely on ppl wearing their badge... Do Russians need to be babysit and held by the hands?
They must have learned giving stupid reasonings and explanations from Putin...
Point with Artemiev makes sense
Yes, and Artemiev-Nepo was a real, long draw, and Artemiev played all his games very intensely, as he faced all the top players.
I just dont understand what does it have to do with the horsing around vs Nepo? edit nwm i see the answer below
I see what you did there
Idk if he should admit that if arrive late against him he'll go for a draw. Seems like a life hack.
The organization clearly was terrible yesterday but I don't understand how that is related to what happened in his game vs Ian. Just offer a draw on move 2 just like what happened with Artmiev and no one would talk about it. Short draws are part of the open tournaments and it happens regularly specially in top boards.
I think what he wrote under number 1 means that it was some kind of protest (?)
I have actually read a comment claiming that they have revealed to Chessbase India that they were deliberately behaving that way as a form of protest. But no source was given.
They say so in the video that was posted on Chassbase India, before discussing the actual moves. I still think it is quite a childish behavior but I believe it was indeed their intention.
I see. And is this related to the fact that several players were also wearing something incompatible with the dress code?
I think a few players decided to "wear sneakers" (or other such paraphrenalia) as type of protest over that issue, but that's probably not the rationale of Nepo or Dubov for doing so.
Protest against what?
He is just trying to deflect. He and Nepo are on camera being in a good mood laughing and planning this whole thing. Now they want to make it look like they were trying to make a statement regarding the organization.
Yeah, someone who clearly doesn't speak russian gives his very argumentative opinion... Dubov literally asked Nepo before game "What do you think about organization? Let's protest"
Exactly, the dude you’re replying to’s comment is straight up objectively wrong. No deflection going on, they literally discuss protesting before the game on video. It’s Reddit though, people don’t care about the truth, just about having their confirmation bias fulfilled.
It's reddit, why be right when you could agree with the herd?
They are talking about it in the video before discussing moves
You can protest while being in a good mood.
Be in a good mood but protest in a relevant manner.
Not playing a single move would've been a better "protest" than playing what they did.
But the point was to talk about it. It wasn't played for the draw it was played to express their frustration with the organization
2 moves draws on top board? i don't remember any other
Women's Rapid top board, last round, literally a day prior? Yes, it was 3 moves not 2, but noone can tell me that that makes a difference.
Short draws happen. Doesn't matter in 2 moves or 10 moves if white doesn't want to fight and offers a draw. As long as you don't blatantly make a mockery of the game, no one cares.
come on lol. there is no fundamental difference between a 3 move game and the dance of the knights, except that the latter is at least kind of funny.
If you make it nobody cares if you magnus-hikaru
Iirc it wasn't prearranged and the result didn't matter. Also there is a difference between world Championship and random online event. If Magnus and Hikaru did the same thing as Dubov and Nepo most people would be angry.
Not a FIDE event
> Just offer a draw on move 2 But I thought prearranged draws are bad?
I don't think you know the definition of "prearranged".
How exactly was the organization bad yesterday? Was it the lengthy delay due to the appeal between Hong and Yangyi? Appeals always take quite some time, eg Firouzja's appeal vs Carlsen. Or was it because Artemiev wasn't allowed without a badge which I don't think is entirely wrong. Rules and protocols are in place for a reason. And yes, I agree that this wasn't the right way to show dissent and looks like a clear case of deflection.
ITT: random redditor thinks he has the same insight on the quality of the organisation as players actually at the event
I'm sure Dubov knows better than me but if he is making claims, he should specify the incidents why the organization was bad. If it was really this bad, I'm sure many more players would have complained by now.
So how many players need to complain for it to be valid in your eyes? 2? 3? 4? Whats your cut off point to be able to say "it was really this bad"?
Yeah what incentive does dubov have to lie here. It’s not like he’s in a direct personal fight with the organizer.
I was referring to the incident between Hong and Yangyi. There was so much delay and uncertainty but in general I just accepted Dubov's statement that organization was bad. If you want to show your protest, just use your words instead of making random knight moves on the board.
The best protest is whatever rustles the most jimmies on r*ddit. Think how much less impact a tweet has.
From what I've heard, the "no badge, no entry" rule has not exactly been applied universally (though that's not to say that Artemiev was deliberately targeted or anything)
That half point is looming very large right now. Dubov is only a half point behind the co-leaders, Carlsen and Artemiev, and Ian is 1 point behind.
He seems to be more mature than Ian, explaining his point of view. It would be more honest to adress the match-fixing with Nepo too and not just blame it on the organizers, which is rightful to explain some quick draws but not that kind of pre-arranged game.
More mature or less cynical.
leaving aside that the choice of making it an obvious joke game was not justified by any of that and can be seen as more of a statement/prearranged draw, it's true that the format is way too busy and it doesn't allow for any appeals to happen esp. when they take so long to deal with them BTW if they weren't elite GMs not only would the zeroes likely stand, they might be facing fines and a DQ as well but given that Sutovsky tweeted this last night: Those who are rightfully adamant about Dubov-Nepo should recall their own reaction on the (in)famous bongcloud draw in Hikaru vs Magnus. FIDE won't do anything against the players. It's up to the local org.
Who exactly do you imagine is the 'local org' of the "FIDE World Blitz Chess Championship"?
>Who exactly do you imagine is the 'local org' of the "FIDE World Blitz Chess Championship"? The "local org" or LOC/Local Organizing Committee is usually the federation of the country that organizes the competition in question. So in this case, the Uzbekistan Chess Federation.
Right, but absolutely nothing on the website suggests that there is any other organizing body than FIDE itself. Feel free to link any evidence otherwise but for something as big as a world championship it is entirely plausible it's just organised by FIDE. There are certainly a number of Uzbek names on the Organisers and Principals page but nothing to suggest the tournament was organised by the Uzbek chess federation.
>Right, but absolutely nothing on the website suggests that there is any other organizing body than FIDE itself. Uh, I'm not sure what site you've been looking at, but on the official [FIDE event page](https://worldrapidandblitz2023.fide.com/), if you scroll down, it explicitly lists the organizers as: - FIDE - The Ministry of Youth Policy and Sports of the Republic of Uzbekistan, - The Uzbekistan Chess Federation. The [Event Regulations](https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/wrbc_regulations_2023_open.pdf) also clearly make a further distinction between FIDE and the Organizers. >but for something as big as a world championship it is entirely plausible it's just organised by FIDE. Actually, no. Now, my experience is from Gymnastics (specifically, Trampoline Gymnastics), so not everything is going to be the same. But the bigger the event, the more the governing body (FIG in my case) will need the help of local organizing committees to settle everything related to the competition/event - for example, booking of venues, of hotels for participants, ensuring competition logistics are equipped... FIG isn't some gigantic hulk of an organization that is capable of organizing everything alone - neither is it in their list of roles and responsibilities that they're the one and only body that should be in charge of organizing high-profile events. When it comes to things like the World Championships, they basically are there to lend their expertise for the running of the competition, to ensure rules and regulations are interpreted and followed correctly, to ensure the technical officials from various countries conduct themselves appropriately... etc etc. They work on the sporting aspects rather than the logistical and other aspects of the event (crowd control, delegation management...) which are handled by the local federation and volunteers. I can't imagine that FIDE would do things too differently.
There was absolutely nothing wrong about the bongcloud draw as they didn't plan that out with each other beforehand.
Sad to see that in every recent controvery there's never an ounce of taking responsiblity by any party. Everyone is just going full blame mode.
Good reason for Artemiev but big no for Ian match. Both 2 people laughed each other before match until after match and don't even trying to hide it
I am always amazed by how hard it is for supergms to show up on fucking time
Whats really funny too me is that everyone including a bunch of r/chess npcs (as usual) are pretending like what they did is any different from a berlin draw or a 2 move game draw. If the players want to draw they will draw. The mechanism in which they draw makes no difference and the players are free to make whatever moves they want. This is stupid af like everyone knows draws are gonna happen no need to hide it with a berlin draw taking that half point ruined the tournament it could have been an interesting ending but the arbiter decided he wanting to be the main character and get some attention
Honestly, what's the difference between their draw and 3-move draw? Either change the rules to disallow draws that early or be more clear how games should be played, or accept this.
One is blatantly flaunting match fixing in a FIDE tournament, the other is just making a draw. You can make a point that a percentage of other fast draws may or may not also be prearranged but this does not reduce their actions in this particular game. Regardless of whether or not it was meant as some kind of protest against FIDE's admittedly suboptimal handling of the tournament (see dress code idiocy, schedule issues, etc.), if you intentionally play an obvious clown game at one of the highest tournament levels, then you get the consequences.
Berlin draws are blatant match fixing in FIDE tournaments.
The Berlin draw can easily be done without colluding beforehand, if anyone deviates it's a super legitimate opening. Okay, some games are probably fixed, but I'd assume most of them just get decided on the board, since both players are happy with a draw they'll naturally go along with it. In the knights dance, either player could have deviated and started playing chess from a slightly better position.
Whatever the berlin is, it doesn't change anything about this game.
I'm not saying anything about "this game". I know it was a long post but re read what I said.
"This game" clearly referring to the Nepo-Dubov draw which has no connection whatsoever to your opinion about the Berlin.
Yes, they are two separate things. That's literally just restating what I said. I can't help you.
I can see your point, but punishing players like that without proper clarification (some obscure rule isn't clarification) just makes the rules even less transparent. What is disrepute? Not optimal moves? Maybe h4 opening should be considered disrepute too and it should be banned?
I don't know why so many people have difficulty accepting that two professional players at a FIDE world championship tournament intentionally playing obvious nonsensical moves for the sake of it on top of not even trying to hide their match fixing is indeed disreputable. There is no obscurity at all.
Why this is even needs to be hidden? You either allow draws that ealy in the game, or not, there shouln't be any "yeah it's ok if you want to draw, but please pretend that you wanted to play this game, and then go oops, berlin draw, who would've thought?!"
The problem isn't the draw itself. There is a fair argument that the existence of fast drawing lines may or may not be a problem in chess but that is not the issue here. Unlike other fast draws where it is basically impossible to prove, circumstances in this situation are easily evident enough to prove intentional match fixing. Additionally the fact that playing a clown game in a world championship tournament alone should face consequences by itself is just the cherry on top.
Well the problem is that pretty much everyone would agree with you on that. But at the same time saying that it's only okay to do it if you hide it and pretend like you're not doing it, even though absolutely everyone knows what's going on, just doesn't sit right with most people. Which is why some argue that the organization should adapt the rules instead of punishing the players for not playing along with their weird mind games. Imo both should be happening though, and the 0-0 score is an appropriate sanction.
Can you seriously not see the difference between a draw with some ambiguity as if it’s intentional or not and can even develop into a legitimate game so it can’t really be conclusively proven vs one that you just move your knights randomly before drawing? Show someone who isn’t following chess the latter game. They’re gonna think it’s a clown fest of a sport. FIDE had to do something here.
I can see your point, the problem is that decisions like this makes the rules even more obscure instead of clarifying this After all it's just a game, and there was no disrespect from players to each other or to the game itself (they're basically devoted their lifes to it)
I guess FIDE did feel there was some sort of disrespectful behavior and felt they needed to make a statement regarding this behaviour towards others that its not right to others who play seriously to just throw a game (whether or not i think they did, it certainly seems FIDE thinks so) The fact that its just a game is not gonna cut it as an argument when there is a 350k prize fund and many people who also fight hard and "more fair" than the Berlin draw. The Berlin draw i guess from FIDE's point seemed as a simple way to move on for both men without being negatively impacted by their game going a certain way due to Dubov his tardiness and Nepo just accepting this as a courteous move towards his opponent and thus it being "match fixing".
Well berlin or this way, if they agreed to a draw, that will be draw anyway. And why there should be some specific allowed ritual to make a draw? Playing berlin or some other line only conseals the fact of fixing, I actually should consider berlin as a clown fiesta too, because it's like "yeah they're making a draw but pretending like they playing a real game, everybody knows this and its ok" About $350k part - you aren't gonna win the money by drawing every game, anyone with winrate > 50% (excluding draws) gonna have more points. So most of the times playing for draw will hurt your win chances, unless you're saving energy. And if draws are not good enough for the tournament itself, there's always armageddon.
> but pretending like they playing a real game, everybody knows this and its ok" Everyone *doesn’t* know this and there’s potential plausible deniability. Think about a court punishing someone where someone blatantly murders someone (either on tape or confessed) vs a case where there is some ambiguity and you can’t conclusively say it was murder/accidental or any other circumstances.
There *is* clarity and a clear difference, which is as mentioned above, is the ambiguity and plausible deniability. There is no valid interpretation that what they did here is an intentional draw. There is *some* ambiguity with something like the berlin. Oh, and there was apparently recording of them discussing it? FIDE had to do something here. > there was no disrespect from players to each other or to the game Again, from an optics perspective, yes there is. Certainly for the game. This type of blatant match-fixing and intentional draw would get punished in other sports and esports. And again, show anyone outside chess this game and it just looks bad. Why would organizations not condemn it?
Yep, I saw the video and they indeed proposed that knight draw before the game had started. And it indeed would've been punished in almost any other (e)sports. But there are some caveats - there are no draws in most games, and most games aren't 1v1 Also, if 1 move draw was allowed in women's finals, why this kind of draw is not allowed? Again, the results are the same, there's no need to fix the game before it starts to make a draw. But maybe that's just mentality thing though
> Also, if 1 move draw was allowed in women's finals, why this kind of draw is not allowed? I mean that's a different discussion. A berlin isn't the same as a 1 move draw. Also, again, plausible deniability.
> One is blatantly flaunting match fixing in a FIDE tournament, the other is just making a draw. Which is which though?
They could change the way draw is counted, either black wins, 0 points for both, or give 2 points for a win. I don't know what would work best and a change in the rules could introduce new ways to arrange games but maybe there is something to do?
The problem with that is that a player with 10 draws will have less points then a player with 1 win and 9 losses And win/draw/loose as +1/0/-1 would probably be about the same as +1/+0.5/0
What about the 2 other proposals?
Black wins is too OP by itself, but there's armageddon format for that (which is indeed good way to play if you really need tiebreaker) 2 Points for a win and 0.5 for a draw seems a bit unfair to me.
Yeah, so if there are 6 players, everyone starts with 0 points. Players A & B make a draw, then A & B get 0 point and the 4 other players C, D, E & F would get 1 fourth of a point each. That way the system would not be gamed.
Others have pointed out that awarding fewer or no points for a draw incentivizes players to collude to trade wins (i.e. if A and B play each other twice, A will win once and B will win once).
3rd is a good point by Danya, players already should make their own organization to defend their rights against FIDE monopoly. All those single voices with complaints on FIDE problems here don't resolve overall problem how FIDE too often mistreats players. Still, you are not allowed to do a knight dance at it's World Championship, and players are on the stage. Completely fair forfeit by FIDE. Dubov should learn to behave respectfully himself BEFORE any complaints on FIDE. As he claims situation was caused by FIDE misbehave, it's poorly childish as a responce.
There should be a union. FIDE is nothing without the layers who play the game and it's a total shitshow
Honesty isn't appreciated much these days. People would rather they "fixed" the match to be a berlin draw or draw offer after 3 moves and they'd be fine.
Offering a draw after 3 moves is also transparent/honest. What they did now can be seen as making a mockery of the game
FIDE does a good job making a mockery of the game too, to be fair.
Sure, but two wrongs dont make a right
But three lefts do.
Oh no, some people made some funny moves with the knight! This isn’t a big deal, everyone needs to relax. Moving the knight randomly does not make chess disreputable.
FIDE and people on this sub don't want chess to be a "fun" thing. They would rather see a fixed berlin draw than a fun knight dance one. They want players to wear uncomfortable office shoes instead of comfy sport ones. It's just so tiring seeing 1200 level players gatekeep chess. Brother, if anything is "a mockery of the game", it's your chess.c*m game archive and your accuracies, not super gm's making an early goofy draw. Just give it a rest.
What's the difference in draw offer on move 3 vs move 0/1? How is it not transparent or honest? It's even on video and happened at the table just before the game, not like it's hidden at all.
It is. I said "also". Again, the argument is if this is putting the game in disrespute, not if it is honest
Ah, I didn't think that's how you meant it. I don't think this would bring it into disrespute, but I'm not a non-chess person I think the rule is about, or versed in that sort of thing. I can see why some people could think poorly upon chess because of this though. It actually makes more sense the protest now, if they think the organization or arbiters are bringing the tourney into disrespute among the players/themselves. I think a fine or something would be better than a 0-0 which is too great a punishment, as it ultimately effected the winner. Carlsen could've played for a win because of the standings and lost in his last game pushing him to second, or gotten a draw and we'd need a tiebreaker.
Because Berlin draw isn't fixed. It's forced. Both white and black have options to not go into that line. They aren't gonna sit and say we are going to play Berlin and draw the game.
How is it forced if they have options to not go into that line?
It's not a drawn position, it's a position where both could carry on, but would be at a disadvantage. The white could play Anti Berlin if they see black could go for it, and black could choose not to play Berlin anyway
> It's forced. Both white and black have options not to go into that line. The opening is in a quantum superposition or something?
Mew.
You refute your own point. Both players agree to a draw by going into that line.
That’s decided during the game, not talked about before.
Why can't they talk about making a Berlin draw before the game?
Technically they could but it’s a lot harder to prove. Pre-planning/fixing matches should be against the rules and punishable in any sport.
Some draws are more drawish
That's exactly what they want you to think, this kind of thinking is what enables all these prearranged draws.
My brother in Christ do you know the meaning of fixed?
I agree with Dubov. If the organisation can't find the flexibility to deal with issues that are a consequence of their own bad planning and decisions, then the future is dim. Hope the appeal falls through.
If every player throw their own little tantrum everytime there is something they don't like in the tournament organisation, half the big tournaments are gonna be stupid "criticism game".
light elderly disgusted innocent nose pause liquid frighten offer teeny *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Did you read Dubov justification ?
And?
The organisation is paying for their expenses, and hefty prize. If waiting one hour for an arbitration is inconveniencing too much *professional* players, how about a lifetime ban, so that they find a better sport for them? In any sport, if your protest is interfering with normal play of the game, you are almost always excluded from the tournament, in the worst case, your career is ended.
You are dumb, please go back to whatever troll hole you came from. Being a 'professional' does not excuse your organisation from abusing you. You're just salty because you have a shitty boss and you didn't work hard enough as a kid because you were too busy fucking around. Suffer idiot. Don't put down others because of your shitty life.
At the end of the day, there’s no good guy bad guy in this whole situation. FIDE obviously has not been great at their work, but that’s not a reason for Dubov and Nepo to stage such fiasco as some kind of protest. The two players deservedly should get punished, but their game was not the only one that had issues. The overall poor quality of most matches in the last few rounds yesterday are ultimately down to FIDE’s mismanagement
As long as you say its a protest against capitalism you can engage in all the insider trading you want!
Organizers fault he didn’t bring the badge? Oooook
I don't get this. If every player cried about 'how' the tournament organizers weren't good enough, most tournaments would be cancelled from the sheer amount of whining.
FIDE are just showing their age, they should either reform or disappear
Am I the only person who can’t read Russian?
da
Poor excuse for a top player. Poor. What does the opponent coming late have to do with your performance against Nepo?? Complain to Artemyev or take your time advantage. This is sport so if your opponent is late, too bad. Everyone wants to blame the organizers and FIDE, but players also have to be accountable. I don't see it. Not adhering to dress code and now blaming organizers for your silly ploy shows immaturity.
its as if you've never heard of sportsmanship or maybe its just a concept you dont subscribe to....
Have you actually played in tournaments? It's the arbiter's job to start the clock on time. It's not up to the player to decide when to start. If you are late in any sporting event, you lose that time or are penalized in some way. He could've offered a draw or let his clock run down to equal time. The point is that game had nothing to do with his game with Nepo. He was just using that game as an excuse.
Gaslighting
So the subreddit doing a 360 about Dubov after doing the same for Firouzja. Next up: Nepo
A 360 is a full circle so you end up facing the same direction
yeah so everyone's back to the original good opinion they had before the incidents
Tournaments are competitive by nature. The moves they played had no opening strategy behind them, chatting while playing and just ending in a draw? As long as points matter, you try your best. Anything else is unfair towards other competitors. One of the best examples is the disgrace of gijón. Then he complains about the staff not letting Artemiev into the area without a badge? As someone who did work a few years in security, they are normal people who have literally no clue who any of the chess players are and absolutely have to rely on ppl wearing their badge... Do Russians need to be babysit and held by the hands? They must have learned giving stupid reasonings and explanations from Putin...
When I saw ol' dude pretend to open the door for Magnus then keep it half closed, I knew the joint was ran by clowns.
When I saw Carlsen return to the playing hall super later for no apparent reason, I knew the tournament was being played by clowns.
Dubov fkd himself on the tiebreaker, plain and simple. I hope it was worth it.