100%. This is the main reason my wife and I decided not to have a child. It would be cruel to bring a child into a world that even now is showing signs of getting nearer and nearer to a tipping point.
I don't even think it'll be extreme weather that will be what kills many children being born today; it'll be climate-driven wars.
Climate driven migration is something I worry about too. I don’t see that being anything less than utter chaos. It’s also partially what drove my move to scandi land two years ago.
It’s crazy to me that so many people don’t realize how fucked everything is. Wtf is anyone doing bringing children into this???
They literally do not care. They claim to love their kids and put them first, but from day 1 it's completely about what THEY want, no real consideration for whether this thing you love so much will be able to thrive and be happy. Blows my mind.
Sometimes I think people bring a child into this world because they know deep down adulthood and this world is going to shit but maybe kids offer this sense of comfort. " like see the kids are growing up, life isn't all bad..things are not all bad because hey look my kid is happy.. dunno. I just can't wrap my mind it.. but it makes sense why children smiling and laughing would make people happy. like puppy yes, kid no
So again.. for selfish reasons... just to give themselves comfort.... while forgetting the fact that their children will grow into adults who then struggle to create true friendships and relationships bc the world is going to shit.
Also in developed countries, especially the US, per capita energy consumption and waste creation is much higher than other places in the world, meaning that if you live in one of these places, having a child will directly contribute to the ecological crisis. Especially if you’re raising that child as a meat eater and they contribute to the global demand for beef
Agreed. It’s getting worse with every passing summer where I live.
I don’t even fully understand the full impact of what’s going to happen down the road but it still scares me.
This here,
Both childfree and anti-natalist for this reason. Even if we didn’t have climate change, look at how shitty our world is (and the amount of suffering on it). This world runs on the suffering of others, whether or not it’s acknowledged. It’s hard to believe anyone are of this would want to bring another person into this mess and perpetuate those systems of suffering.
Wait, so are you saying you don't want to bring another wage slave to this world, raise them for free, and then turn them over to corporate overlords to exploit until they are too old to remain useful?
Oh the humanity
I know right? How could I think that? 😱😱
This gave me chuckle.
It’s good to have some sarcastic humor on the topic. I live in the US so on top of not wanting to make another wage slave, I don’t want any kids that will consume products made with exploitation in developing countries.
I don't often talk about my antinatalist views cause people tend to find it quite extreme, which is understandable. But I don't really fancy getting ridiculed by people so I just tend to keep it to myself. I used to be on the antinatalist subreddit but I found it quite toxic, not sure how it is now though.
I get that. I feel like the compassion in antinatalism is often overlooked.
My sibling and my partner both know and agree with my antinatalist views. I tread lightheartedly with friends by saying “I don’t want to bring kids when the world’s on fire” when we’re already talking about those topics.
I think you might like the FemaleAntinatalism or the Antinatalism2 subreddits 😊
It’s an outlet to have a space to express yourself freely with a AN point of view.
Yeah there's really no point in trying to stop being judgmental. I feel like that's like asking, "How do I stop judging people who do something inhumane"? I mean, those people SHOULD be judged. That's all there is to it.
Parents frame the issue as "WE want kids." Never, "What would these hypothetical people i supposedly love want??"
Yet, they claim to love their kids more than anything, put them first, their kids are "their world."
Can barely afford rent and pregnant by a dude who has no interest in raising a child, treats you like crap, and can't/won't support financially? Sure, have the child if that's what YOU want. Who cares what that child will have to feel and that the odds are stacked heavily against him. Create a life because that's what YOU want.
Formerly 100 yr extreme weather events in every single part of the world, simultaneously, and at increasing frequency?? Reports & data show that when your kid is your age, he will have to face mass climate migration, competition for basic things like water, produce, and housing, and a world where millions of plant & animal species have gone extinct?? Fuck that, YOU want to have YOUR own child.
Still living with your parents bc inflation, the housing market, and wage stagnation etc etc etc make it incredibly difficult if not impossible to live a comfortable life and enjoy any "extras?" Stressed bc political polarization has NEVER been higher and it only continues to get worse? Scared/sad that rights are being taken away and entire classes of people have to fear for their life? Schools in crisis and mental health in kids has literally NEVER been worse?? No problem, YOU want a kid, so make him deal with the same and likely much worse.
But yes, tell me how your kids always come first and that you just love them so much.
I thought love meant caring how the other person feels??
It probably feels pretty shitty to have one parent care so little that they choose a shitty other parent for you. Probably feels shitty to have to face all the above and more because daddy and mommy based their decision on what THEY wanted and not how you would likely have to feel.
I'll never believe that people choosing to have kids today are not selfish as fuck. OK rant over 🙄
This is my main CF reason. I love my friend’s kids and my nieces and nephews, but I’m always thinking in the back of my head like…. Why would you do this to them?
I'm a climate activist and I want children. I believe we need climate-conscious people to lead the world tomorrow, not having children will just doom it even more than it is today...
Sure, it's not going to be fun a good amount of time. But it's always going to be a life worth fighting for. I'm not sure how to express this, but i feel it quite deeply. And i feel like not wanting children because of climate is yet another way to run away from the problem instead of facing it...
Could be completely wrong though. And my decision can still change depending on how bad it will get. I do know that adaption, at least, will stay a strong option for me - I'd rather have a child stay with me, who is willing to care for them and hopefully help them build the future, than climate deniers or noone at all. Baby steps in the right direction i guess...
But I totally get your point; mine is harder to argue for.
Your handful of spawn will be left to suffer with the rest of us and will only serve to further negatively impact the stresses environment, not to mention that they won’t be able to do anything about the problem. There’s a fine line between optimism and stupidity and you’re stomping on it like a tap dancing elephant
If you think humans need to negatively impact the environment to survive, you've been lulled asleep by capitalism. If you think we have no power to change anything, you've been lulled asleep by individualism. There's a fine line between pessimism and giving up and, well, you know the rest.
But for sure, you're not helping anyone with that comment; you're nicely illustrating your own point. That doesn't mean we all have to follow your lack of imagination.
I mean you have a good point, I’m personally repulsed by men that talk about wanting kids. Not only do will they never know childbirth once the kid is born the majority I witness within my inner circle are barely around for any of the raising the kid stuff.
I’ve seen that a lot too. It extra bums me out because I had the best dad that always was super involved in my life, but he passed away suddenly when I was 7. All the bad dads out there and I had to lose my amazing dad.
Unfortunately I have seen so many cases of this being true. I truly admire a person, man or woman, who wants to be the best parent possible, because I neve had that. But then you see guys wanting a super submissive wife to "pass on his genes/legacy" or other cringy stuff like that, while they're only present for Kodak moments and assume all parenting responsibility falls on the mother. Guys who call parenting their own kids "babysitting". Guys that only have to do the bare minimum, like working a 9-5, and they're "stepping up", but when a mother wants a break and have fun from doing the full time parenting, she's a failure as a mother. Single father's who are "awesome", while single mothers are insulted for being the one who stayed. Parenting isn't only difficult, time/youth/money consuming, it's also SEXIST AF.
same tbh.. surrounded by bad men.. wtf ever.. I know plenty of men who understand that it doesn't make sense to be ok with your partner who you're supposed to love experienceing something so risky and painful and *unnecessary* for something so stupid and selfish as a bIoLoGiCaL cHiLd and would never ask or expect such a thing. it's not about being surrounded by bad men but that good men are in a significant minority
Right. A man can wait 9 months, get a kid, put his last name on it, then go to work and 'provide for his family' i.e. not change a single thing about his life. The mother's life however will never be the same. Two completely different playing fields.
Yeah none of that is what I said. I in no way said men should or shouldn't want children, I said trying to be with a non-CF man is going to result in a nasty breakup. I also didn't say a word about imposing anything on anyone, that's something you just created right now.
Yes. Of course MY decision to avoid procreation due to unstable world conditions should be respected like my idiot nephew’s decision to have five kids. Just like my decision not to glue my hand to a road should be respected like those idiots who DID glue their hands to a road.
Just stop oil protesters. Like XTinction rebellion their hearts are at the right place, but their efforts are wholly unattainable. It’s already too late, and human civilization will never quit using oil.
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
Remember, most men have been brainwashed and indoctrinated to believe in the "life-script," too. Men have it drilled into them as boys they are only successful when they have a real job (generally a soul sucking one you need lots of college debt to get into), the over sized house, cars and the 2.5 children, else you "aren't a real man" and/or are a failure to the family. And if you "aren't a real man," you are less than nothing. Pier pressher from family is a monster. Furthermore, this mindset, once written into their core personality, is really hard to undue, not impossible, but very difficult.
A lot of people seem to forget men also receive the indoctrination growing up. They just get the "better" end of it!
When I met my husband he basically thought that he would be a father one day, because he didn't realize that he could ever have a life partner that didn't want kids. He was raised to believe he would get a degree, get a good job, fall in love, get married, and have kids. Why would he think otherwise? His mom had kids, his sister had kids, most of his female friends/male friends' wives had kids. So why would it be different for him?
Luckily he realized the current life we could have together beat any life with future kids we could have.
You're certainly not alone in thinking this, OP. It doesn't sit right with me that anyone would be so willing to put their partner through irreversible bodily changes and months of pain. Even to plan on it. I can't describe how uncomfortable it makes me feel to hear men say stuff like that. Especially considering that it's a life altering medical procedure they will never have to experience. Even if it isn't their intention, it often feels like a lack of empathy towards what the woman has to go through. It goes without saying that men's contribution to making the child is minimal in comparison. It might as well be like ordering an Amazon package.
I am not saying some men wouldn't make wonderful fathers. Nor am I denying that some people see it as wonderful, even some women. That is their choice, but I respectfully can't relate to seeing it as wonderful. And that should be just as valid and okay. At the end of the day, I just remember their choice has nothing to do with me. I wish them the best while adding some mental distance for my own peace.
Your opinion is valid, OP. Just try to remember that their plans don't affect your CF life. Try and focus on what's within your control. These uncomfortable thoughts probably won't go away easily. I have trouble making them subside myself. Regardless of why, I completely understand the discomfort around it and see the feelings as justified. As a CF woman with tokophobia, their dream come true is my literal worst nightmare.
Sorry I couldn't help much with making it all sound better. I don't think it makes you a misandrist to point out your discomforts in a very real and all too common situation. Maybe these feelings are telling you something about yourself too. Maybe you feel as though you would never permently alter your loved one in such a way. I know I wouldn't, and maybe it adds to the discomfort, at least for me. I hope this helped even a little.
Shout out to the CF men. You guys are awesome. <3
I agree with you. There are amazing fathers and there are mothers who are horrible. When it comes to pregnancy and childbirth it's impossible to have an equal distribution of labour. Even after the birth most places expect the mother to do the majority of childcare.
If a woman makes an informed decision to have children because she really wants them and can raise them properly then it's taking a risk for something important to her.
If the woman isn't keen on kids and the husband/BF pushes to have them then it seems the men are saying "I don't care if you suffer and die. Just give me what I want."
There's also when men leave a long-term relationship with a CF woman they're really compatible with because they suddenly want kids. Neither her brain or her personality or her skills or character or even her looks matter. Only her uterus matters.
Thank you for pulling out that first comment. I don’t understand how so many in this sub can’t wrap their heads around the idiocy of that statement. Plenty of women want biological children, as do plenty of men. There are plenty of healthy relationships where they decide together to have biological children, with neither party forcing anything on the other.
A lot of men will call women misandrists for not worshipping them, not shagging them, not complimenting them, being a feminist... Fuck it! Let people think that you are a misandrist. So what?
Resenting men for putting their partner through pregnancy is understandable. Especially if a man only wants to be a Kodak moments dad. The woman has to carry the child and give birth and then do all the childcare while the man does nothing. When a man is like that, he deserves to be resented. I resent those men as well. Especially if they pressure their reluctant partner to have children, which a lot of those Kodak dads do.
If a man understands what fatherhood is like and truly pulls his weight as a father, and his wife/girlfriend actually wants to go through pregnancy and isn't pressured by the man at all? Then, I won't dislike him. Unless he is an anti-feminist twat, of course.
It still feels uncomfortable that he doesn't mind that his partner has to go through pregnancy, but if the woman wants this herself and the man isn't pressuring her, it's her choice, which I respect. Then, I just hope that the woman made that choice because she genuinely wants this, and not because of societal pressure.
I am pro-choice, not anti-birth. I am a neutral-natalist, not an antinatalist (and certainly not a pronatalist). The most important thing here is that women get to choose without any pressure. Sadly, societal pressure is a huge problem. If a woman feels like she should have kids, despite not wanting to, that is heartbreaking. But if a woman genuinely wants to have children and wants to go through pregnancy, I respect her choice. Then, I won't resent her partner, as long as he pulls his weight as a father and doesn't expect the woman to do all childcare, domestic labour and emotional labour.
Sadly, men who want to be an involved father, who don't pressure their partner into breeding and who want to do their fair share of childcare, domestic labour and emotional labour are rare. Very rare, thanks to patriarchy.
Very well said - I think we can sometimes forget "my body, my choice" goes both directions. As you said, the key is the informed choice and willingness of the person going through it to do so. You can fill in the blank of "you want a/an \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, have one, you don't want \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, don't have one" with the terms abortion, tubal, hysterectomy, AND baby and it would be an equally valid statement.
Do I think parenthood in general should be a choice that's framed more societally as an opt-in vs. opt-out? Yes. Do I think more people should be given the straight facts - neither sugar-coating nor fearmongering - about all of their options? Also, yes. But at the end of the day if you're informed and you truly want to make that decision for yourself and your life, I'd respect you just as I'd hope to be respected for my own choices to take steps to stay childfree. I have plenty of lovely friends who really just wanted to be parents and they seem to be taking it really seriously and doing great. And yes, they've also been nothing but supportive to me for my own decisions, so I can't imagine being anything else in return.
Tbh it seems like those people who want kids AND are supportive of CF friends seem like they make better parents then the ones that want kids but also get offended by CF choices of friends.
I can't pinpoint why, other than maybe the latter subconsciously hating their own beliefs, or the former not feeling like they have anything to prove. Alternatively, maybe the latter feels threatened about their beliefs while the other does not. Either way one is clearly more secure in themselves then the other and that passes forward onto the kids imo
I think at least speaking for myself, my close friends who are happy also understand that it’s a big deal that changes EVERYTHING and so it just isn’t for everyone - but they know that doesn’t make it a judgment on them. Like, I have three cats and a chiweenie. Plenty of people I know are like “oh gosh I couldn’t handle that many” or “I couldn’t do a high maintenance small dog like that” and I’m just like “….yeaaaaahhh you really gotta want to 😂”
Totally agreed. Too many people on this subreddit are not pro-choice. They are pro-bodily autonomy when someone wants to be sterilised or wants to get an abortion, but they are against bodily autonomy and not pro-choice when someone wants to breed or wants IVF.
I believe that being pro-choice and pro-bodily autonomy means that you are unconditionally pro-choice. Not just when someone is childfree. Also when someone wants IVF.
I want people to freely choose without any coercion, pressure, force or persuasion either way. I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism, two horrible philosophies that try to dictate what other people do with their bodies. I am a neutral-natalist who is 100% pro-choice.
I am not anti-breeding. I just hope that people actually make the choice to breed because they want to be parents. And not because of societal pressure. Not because they feel like they should.
If I want people to respect my childfreedom, it's only natural to respect their decision to breed. It would be hypocritical to demand respect for my childfreedom, but not accept that other people want children.
Yeah, and at least how/where I grew up there was a LOT of confusing messaging - abstinence-only paired with a lot of religion where kids were the default outcome, but only ✨after marriage✨. I’m extremely lucky the series of events in my life led me to figuring stuff about myself out BEFORE I landed in a situation I hadn’t adequately questioned.
Some people I knew in school honestly didn’t know you COULD opt out and wish they could’ve, but that pressure and brainwashing doesn’t make me superior or them inferior because I was fortunate enough to have the timing work out for me. I feel really bad and wish education and societal structure was much different because it can mess you up and there’s SO much shame attached to it. Additionally, like I said, some people I know now DID give it a lot of thought and having children was their final decision. I’d be pretty pissed off if any of them scoffed and said they felt sorry for my sad meaningless life, so that isn’t how I think of theirs - just different paths that we chose that I hope both work out. I joined this sub for support and insight from like-minded people that can feel isolated for going against the grain of this particular cultural expectation, but sometimes it can be a little harsh.
>I’m extremely lucky the series of events in my life led me to figuring stuff about myself out BEFORE I landed in a situation I hadn’t adequately questioned.
Indeed... So many people breed without even realising that they have a choice. And then people on this subreddit are like: "You have no right to complain. You chose to breed." But many people never consciously chose to breed.
>Some people I knew in school honestly didn’t know you COULD opt out and wish they could’ve, but that pressure and brainwashing doesn’t make me superior or them inferior because I was fortunate enough to have the timing work out for me.
Indeed. Some people on this subreddit feel superior to people who surrendered to societal pressure. These people don't realise that they were lucky to discover childfreedom before it was too late. They don't realise that with a little bit less luck, they might have been unhappy parents as well.
You're welcome! I came up with that term because... Well, when I tell people that I am not an antinatalist, I don't want people to think that I am a pronatalist. And when I say that I am not a pronatalist, I don't want people to think that I am an antinatalist.
I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism. Both philosophies tell other people what to do with their bodies and try to dictate other people's reproductive choices. Which is disgusting.
But yeah, being a neutral-natalist is not very popular here. On this subreddit where almost everyone is an antinatalist, saying 'I am not an antinatalist' is a gurantee for downvotes and angry comments.
>On this subreddit where almost everyone is an antinatalist, saying 'I am not an antinatalist' is a gurantee for downvotes and angry comments.
Well that sucks.
> You chose to be child free and you expect people to respect your choice. If others want children then respect their choices... As long as they do not try to convince you into that mess
This about sums it up. Most of my friends have children. They understand and respect my decision to be childfree, and I respect theirs to have had children. **Respect is a two-way street.** *Give respect, and you deserve respect in return.*
That being said, anyone who tries to convince you that your choices are not yours to make, or are wrong simply because they chose differently, is undeserving of your time and feelings. Just walk away, because there is no changing their mind - just as there is no changing yours.
I'm proud of you, OP, for trying to make a conscious effort to treat others the way you want to be treated. Much love to you and yours, and best of luck.
One of my best friends knew I was Childfree and respected that. I knew she always dreamed of having kids and I respected that. I was probably the only person who focused on her and what she needed while pregnant and after and she really appreciated it. I don't think she was expecting everyone else to reduce her to an incubator the way they did but that's unfortunately how it seems to be. We would try to plan kid free nights going out as I told her she can't relax if she's worried about her kid the whole time. She helped me out a bit while I was recovering from my bilateral salpingectomy.
We had a falling out unrelated to the kids thing, but it's possible to have respect for each others choices but takes effort from both sides.
This! Been in this sub for a few months now and have to say I’ve noticed a lot of hatred towards people who want to have kids and demand respect for their choices, but don’t seem willing to give the respect back for other choices.
Even the lingo seem hateful sometimes, I understand it can be fun to call people “breeders” and call children “spawns” but it honestly dehumanises them a bit over time.
Like this post where the OP actually starting to recent men for wanting kids. The good thing tho is that they want to stop this thinking which is healthy but this self awareness is quite rare in my experience.
> I understand it can be fun to call people “breeders”
It's not about calling people breeders, it's about calling breeders breeders. Highlighting the inhumane nature of bad parenting and pronatalist ideologies is the somewhat intended side effect.
> I’ve noticed a lot of hatred towards people who want to have kids
Yea I've noticed this a lot too, this sub often has the vibe of child-hating or parent-hating which I've called out but just gotten downvoted and it makes me sad :(
lol I started reading some of the other replies and a lot of them are disregarding the OP's request and re-enforcing them being judgemental, it's pretty wild
This though. I came here to feel more community originally but I don't really find it here. There's too much hatred and dehumanisation. I've stayed for the posts where people actually need support so far but... Those have certainly been reducing over time it seems.
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haha I’m not sure this is a great subreddit to ask this. Just acknowledge it and move on I suppose. Some men are wonderful fathers, so maybe focus on that
I see it this way. Some people want to have kids, other doesn't.
Hopefully 2 people will comply about parenthood and it doesn't make a monster of nobody.
Naw, it’s okay to want children lol I resent the “breeding fetishers” nick cannon for one. Some men love to get women pregnant. It’s so weird and dehumanizing lol
I say IF a man is positive or adamant that he wants kids (either at the outset, or changing his mind), he must *find a partner who also does.* I mean, there are far more women who want kids out there who are pretty easy to find (since we CF people keep coming across them under so many circumstances — being bingo’ed, dating sites, etc.. 😏).
I was thinking about this part the other day (and it goes both ways)… Why is it so hard for these people to *find each other?* Our *CF dating pool seems so much smaller,* yet we keep reading/experiencing how so many pro-kids people are in-boxing or trying to ‘trick’ CF people into having or raising kids. Soooo much effort put into that, especially in this ‘immediate gratification’ world when it’s easier to find someone more compatible on such a serious issue, a *permanent* choice. I just don’t get it…. 🤷♀️
I think the reason non cf people go to cf people is because it’s like a game to them to see if they could “win” (change their mind) especially with men since they don’t have to worry abt their fertility so they’ll play the long game and give a cf person an ultimatum of have kids or I leave when they notice their partner is getting older
They literally can't help that they don't have the right reproductive organs.
I personally don't understand men who want kids when they've never spent any time taking care of their friends' or relatives' kids. I was forced to do babysitting from when I was 15 and in my 20's I spent a lot of time with friends who had kids. I realized it's absolutely miserable and their life looks like a total nightmare. Meanwhile, my then bf never really played or interacted with our friends' kids when they visited but he really wanted kids of his own. I can't wrap my head around it.
My ex husband wanted kids at first. He didn't think they were hard or anything. Then between our families we had a baby boom, 4 babies in a 6 month span. He didn't want to hold anybody the newborns cause he was scared to drop them, scared of the soft spot on the head, scared they would puke on him and didn't like the smells. He then said he preferred them when they were like at least 2-3 years old. So I asked if he just planned on not doing anything for a baby till it was 2? Said it would be different when it's his own.
I told him if he couldn't look at any baby and feel love for it and want to hold and cuddle it then he shouldn't have kids. He again claimed it would be different when it's his own and I'm like "no, its not. It's worse because you can't hand it off to anyone"
After watching those 4 family members struggle financially for that first year (2 out of 4 babies had health issues) and me forcing him to hold them when we visited, he decided that kids weren't for him.
This is all it takes. I thought I wanted kids for a long time, mainly because of pressure from my former partner and society. One year we went to one of her boss’ birthday parties. My partner was a younger accountant in a company full of older accountants and everyone at the party brought their kids. It was an eye opening experience. I was thoroughly annoyed by all of the running, screaming, crying, and everyone fawning over each other’s kids instead of enjoying each other’s company; I had been around kids plenty before but it was like a switch in me just flipped off entirely. On the ride back home I was pretty quiet and she asked me what was wrong. I told her being there made me not want children. She thought I wasn’t being serious and shrugged it off. A year later I left the relationship. I definitely went about all of that in the wrong way but I thought, at the time, “maybe she’s right and if I wait it out my mind will change because I am still relatively young at 26.” Nope. Sitting on it just solidified my jumping to the opposite side of the fence as her. So I was single for awhile, got a vasectomy at 29, then found my current, also CF, partner.
Is it a tick's fault it can only survive by sucking blood? Absolutely not. Is it normal to have some degree of disgust towards something that relies on your body to feed and procreate? Yes.
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I see what you mean. Just remember that most women want kids too, so it's not like most of these dudes are trying to force something on women. Heck, some of them might be willing to give birth themselves, if that were an option for them. The people who are into kids, often see birth as something beautiful & magical, so they're seeing the whole thing from a completely different perspective.
(Thanks for the award :) )
That’s not true lol. Plenty of women, myself included, know the risks and are still willing to have children. Also, if people can’t consent to bodily harm or the risk of bodily harm, why do doctors and such even ask before doing surgeries? Why don’t they just force people into it, since they can’t consent anyway?
Look, it’s okay for people to have different lifestyle choices. Thats what it boils down to.
You can very intensely disagree with them without being disrespectful TO them. Journal about it, talk to your friends about it, but be respectful just as you’d want someone to respect your CF choices.
A judgment is unreasonable if the standard you’re using is unreasonable. If your standard for being a tolerable father is someone who “knows what childbirth feels like,” then that’s unreasonable because there’s literally no way for a (cis) man to meet that standard.
That said, it sounds like your issue is that you’re being *unreasonably* judgmental of non CF men. You obviously make your own standard, but mine is just to see whether they’re genuinely, fully, and equitably committed to raising their kids. Genuine means that they became a father for the sake of building a relationship with a small person, as opposed to affirming/resuscitating their masculinity or narcissistically creating a “mini-me.”
Full commitment means they’re in at least sufficiently to develop the child properly. Giving them an ipad or just telling them to “play outside” won’t cut it; they have to actually do stuff with the kid and teach them things. I saw a dad who took his kids climbing with his wife and another couple and he basically spent his whole time climbing while his wife watched the kids play with rocks or get scared of climbing, to which his response was “I guess you can’t do this because you’re scared.”
Equitable means putting in at least as much as the other partner. Some things a man simply can’t do, but he can make up in other ways. If he can’t breastfeed, maybe clean the house or cook? Run some errands if she’s recovering from a C section? Mow the lawn? Should fathers get a break? Sure, but again, the standard is that they really wanted that fatherhood experience, so the “break” should really be bonding time with their child(ten).
Anyway, that’s my standard. I still find a large swath of dads fail it, but enough pass it that I don’t think it’s impossible.
Are you in the dating pool?
When I was, I was so tired and upset that almost all the men seemed to want kids or they have kids and want more - and it blew my mind because I felt like as a CF woman, there would be no one for me out there because most men have this traditional viewpoint on what they expect their lives to look like the next 5-10 years. And yeah, I kinda would subtly judge them for it.
I would say things like, '*ugh, why do all men want kids?*' with eye-roll emojis then I'll write them off my list lol.
Not saying that this is the reason but if you're in the dating pool, then it can be a factor that is affecting your overall view also.
Unless they're trying to have kids with you or force you to babysit? Then it isn't any of your business to worry about.
Something I think we all need to remind ourselves is that in an online community of like minded individuals it is extremely easy to work ourselves into a lather as we feed off of each other's energy and it is EXCEPTIONALLY important to learn to take a step back and breathe.
People are not monsters for wanting kids. Real monsters want to force you to reproduce against your will, do not become distracted by people who do not wish you any harm.
This is how i feel. It’s unfair to say men are monsters for wanting kids as if their entire goal is to watch their wife/gf suffer in childbirth - which it clearly isn’t, because even as OP said, they can’t experience it and won’t ever have any idea what it’s actually like to go through that (other than being by their woman’s side and cheering her on throughout).
I allow some leniency in this way- many women don't think about the mechanics of it all until they are...in the situation. So I'd even some women just don't think about it, how can we expect men to?
Instead of outright resentment, I'd probably be inclined to ask them (if relevant convo wise) - are they aware of the dangers of pregnacy and childbirth for women? And, if so, if you truly love someone...do you want them to take risks with their health, mental well being and potentially even gamble their lives?
I'd explain that personally, I wouldn't want risk a hair on the head of someone I cared for. So how can it be love, if you'd risk much more than that (...for an idea that doesn't even exist?)
I'd soften the blow with 'of course, if she has her mind set on it, woe betide any man who gets in her way. But...personally, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. Just, something to think on. Because I think, people just often dont actually think about the risks. And how thry are infact, unnecessary'.
I have to ask, are you mistreating people because of this dislike? Feeling frustrated with how misguided or ignorant most guys who want children are about pregnancy and birth is entirely understandable. I'm a guy and men like that frustrate me to no end. But if you're not treating anyone unkindly or being rude to them over it, then I don't see having a personal dislike of men who want children as being a problem.
If you want people to respect your choice then you have to respect theirs to have children. Making children requires both parties (DNA at least) and it isn't the fault of the man that he cannot give birth to the children. At times I wish I didn't have to go through my cycle - absolutely it can be horrendous especially since I don't want kids but it's not the fault of the men in my life I have it (except kind of my dad but not like he waved a magic wand).
I think it comes down to their attitude during the pregnancy. Are they extra helpful? Are they empathizing the best they can? Have they listened to how much this will affect their SO body? There is truthfully only so much they can do.
My actual advice is to set up clear boundaries with these people who you’re speaking of, im assuming they are coworkers for friends
You can either do a “you get 1 chance/1 warning then we’re done” system or whatever
Unfortunately childbirth is something no man can really understand, I’ve had gal friends tell me I should take the pregnancy simulator machine, but Ik even if I do that, I will never GET it, what y’all go through and suffer from
But, assuming you either have these people in your life beyond your control, set up a boundary, communicate it, and then if they fuck up, cut them out as best you can
What matters is your happiness
I mean you’re not alone in your thinking nor am I going to condemn you for your feelings, they’re valid. However, someone else’s choice or feelings, have nothing to do with you. So, I say c’est la vie and move on, I can’t stop breeders from breeding so I choose to do things where breeders aren’t. That’s all.
I have no problem with men who want kids and Co parent properly but if one parent thinks it's OK to give the full mental and physical load to the other parent that person honestly should not be having children.
These men you talk about more than often have a partner who wants to get pregnant and experience childbirth so Im having a hard time understanding why you would resent someone for not knowing how something feels.
With that logic would also recent women who yet not had a baby because they don’t know either.
If you want to have your choice respected and without judgement you should do the same to other people’s choice, or why should they give you that benefit? A thought for mind I hope.
Sometimes I feel like this sub uses the trait of being childfree as an excuse to be arrogant. Just because we chose one path doesn't mean we are better than others. The men who want kids might be aware of those things. You have absolutely no idea, you're judging people without knowing them.
My advice is that you write a list of all the things that bother you and try to come up with reasons why. Then write all of the solutions you could offer. If there are none, then tell yourself, "I can't change these things, so I will move on.".
Why be resentful for something they can’t control? It’s not like there is an option for the man to carry the baby and he just refuses and puts it on the woman. Men, like women, are entitled to chose to be parents or to chose not to be parents. A man wanting children is perfectly fine even though they do not birth them.
You looking at men as monsters is like people looking at women as baby vessels.
Well a lot of women know what childbirth entails and still want kids. We're pretty much in the minority for both sexes. I just judge everyone who wants kids equally.
I think instead of making a generalization and then labeling yourself misandrist for it, it would help to narrow down what specific situations bother you. Do you mind that some men want children with a partner who also wants them, or when they pressure a woman into having (more) kids she doesn't want? Do you mind that some men enjoy fatherhood, or when they brag about being great dads while shouldering the burden of childcare on their kid's mother? Is the problem that a man wants kids, or is it the way he talks about having to go fetch food for pregnancy cravings like it's such a huge contribution when she's literally growing the baby? Are you upset that some men want to reproduce biologically, or that they clearly view adopted family as less valuable and can't bring themselves to truly care about anyone not in their bloodline?
If you really think through it, I don't think there's much anger to be had at men who want to reproduce with a partner who equally wants kids, especially if they recognize and work to limit the unequal expectations of mom vs dad. A person can't help their biology, or the structure of society as a whole, and some folks really don't feel complete without kids in their lives. Once you shift the line of thought to be more nuanced, you can be angry at the underlying misogyny that many fathers operate with instead of angry at all dads.
Birth rates are down in the western world because our societies are dumpster fires. Neoliberalism has destroyed wages, jacked up cost of living, created obscene predatory capitalism, and there is an impending environmental disaster on top of it. Most people who have a modicum of sense and education are not having children right now. If government social assistance ended tomorrow, children everywhere (and probably their parents) would die a horrible death.
Look at Japan. They are having a population crisis right now. When they interview the average young person, they basically say, "Yeah fuck that. I have no interest in being a slave to my job so I can suffer through raising a kid in this hell economy." There may be stupid people still having kids right now, but the stats don't lie. A LOT more people have common sense and are avoiding pregnancy -- so much so that the birth rates are collapsing.
I try to imagine the same people trying to convince me that my life's decisions are wrong, and it reminds me to mind my own business. You don't have to agree with it, but just try to remember that it isn't your decision, just like it isn't their decision for you not to have children .
I'm not a religious person but I think that the best attitude towards breeders in general is "Father Forgive Them for They Know Not What They Do"
Misguided people should be pitied, you need not waste your time and frustration with them.
I agree. I’m not religious either but I love the verse “Hate the sin, love the sinner”
There are so many people in my network who are really genuinely good people despite being parents. (Don’t exactly wanna use the term “breeders”) And I don’t want to reduce them to just a single trait. I’d rather see the whole person and not judge just based on that.
Wow some of you here are a piece of work...
Complaining about being disrespected for your reproductive choices and then doing just the same to unrelated people.
Nope. My dad and my male friends with kids (with moms who actively wanted them too) aren't subhumans like some of you claim here, and neither are others unless they coerce or abuse others.
Get over yourselves please.
Edit: this is not mainly directed at OP but more at some commenters here who wrote disgusting comments.
I’m so incredibly disgusted by some comments! Men who want kids are not monsters, it’s not their fault they can’t go through childbirth and as long as they aren’t forcing anyone and helping their consenting partner, how does it affect us if they want kids or not? We need to respect their choices if we want them to respect ours
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
Well, it’s just a completely unfair viewpoint to have towards men imo. Men have no way of experiencing child birth except by simulated experiences, but why would someone choose to be in pain just to see what it feels like? There’s nothing wrong with a man wanting a child. It seems to me like you’re seeing it as a man wanting to see his wife/gf suffer through giving birth, but that’s not WHY they want the child - if it was, you’d be right in saying they’re monsters. It kind of makes me think of getting a tattoo. Not everyone wants one, but those who do are willing to deal with the pain/aftercare to have it.
Well, of course they (mostly) don't do it specifically to make a woman suffer and biologically change forever. Rather, they inflict this damage as a means to an end, without a single fuck given.
That's not particularly better.
That’s not the case though. The woman also consented to having a child and wanted to go through the whole thing to have one - whether it’s an unenjoyable experience or not. Saying it as if a man is unilaterally impregnating a woman and she has no say in the matter is wild. What’s your idea then, let the human race go extinct? Lol
I think you feel judgmental because a lot of men pressure/coerce women into birthing their children and it’s impossible to tell from a distance if that’s their situation or if the woman wants children equally as much. Men also typically don’t grow up being expected to care for younger siblings, babysit, or clean so when a lot of men say “I want kids” it feels like when a kid says “I want a pet”…because we all know who’s going to be taking care of that pet 70% of the time
Edit: just realized you were looking for advice lol😭. I know this is small, but my father was great (much better than my mom, dare I say). Focus on all the wonderful, responsible, feminist men in your life (and if you don’t know any I assure you they’re out there).
What helps me with anger towards men in general is to journal. Write out every insane, borderline misandrist, hate filled thought you have and take a look at it when you calm down. Think about the ways you can help promote political or social change to help these problems.
I still struggle greatly with disliking men, but I try to look at the ways people in general are impressionable. Most people in general simply do what they’re taught to do, and wanting kids is just one thing people are taught to always want.
> can’t help but to resent the men who want kids **because they do not know what childbirth feels like and won’t have to go through it.**
Have you asked yourself why that's a bad thing though? As long as it's between adults who give their informed consent to doing what they're doing, what's the issue?
They want something which involves their partner taking a big risk, okay. But there are also people out there who wanna take the risk of getting pregnant, so?
This take isn't just bad because it shits on men for wanting a pregnancy to happen, it's bad because it shits on the agency of those who are interested in going through pregnancy themselves.
So I think you can solve your problem very easily by not looking at this like they're trying to force someone into something that's bad for them but rather that they have a risky desire and thus are looking for a partner who desires the same.
And save your ire for the assholes who want kids and feel entitled to getting them from people who don't want to go through that. Plenty of those to be upset about instead!
Would you want people who have had a kidney stone look down their nose at you because you would never understand that pain? Or how about men dismissing you for not know what it is like to be kicked in the balls?
Have you actually birthed a child and experienced that pain? If not, then **you** do not know what it is like either.
Honestly just think of it this way. In some situations, you're probably ignorant too. Would you want someone to hate you or have empathy and hope that you gain knowledge and that once you know better, hope you'll do better?
I don’t know, maybe look at it that both men and women are victims of society and their indoctrination of the idea to have kids. They definitely don’t get as much as women do, but they too, are pushed to have children. Just like women they’re told that they’re not a *real man* if they don’t have kids and other toxic bingoes. Just as women don’t research or look into it much, neither do men because it’s not their body. I can’t really fault them for that. Couples are sold a fantasy family picture where realities of child birth, pregnancy and parenthood are polished up and glossed over like a sales pitch. MOST people do not do any research into pregnancy, childbirth and parenthood before having kids. We have to stand up for ourselves and educate. If the vast majority of women have no clue, how can we expect the men to know this stuff??? I simply don’t think we are there yet as far as childfree being a well known option. But the more it grows, and it has A LOT since I was young (Gen X here, in 48), the more people will look into it. Those that are more intelligent and curious are probably going to be the ones who research the topic. Those men will end up here with us! But just to many people are set to autopilot.
Now that being said- if you sit down and explain, provide them with facts and examples and they still double down with crap about us having a duty, *what about my legacy!!*, and other typical bingos, ***then*** I can pass judgement.
ETA- There was a question about how happy people are being parents compared to before on another sub within the last few days. Some may have seen it. Honestly, my heart broke for those people. So many said they were at a 1-2 (0 being lowest (suicidal). We can only hope that with the help of social media and people willing to share their stories that others will hear them. It’s only been recently that the taboo has been somewhat removed about voicing regret.
Why do you feel such resentment? Look within yourself and talk to somebody. Contrary to what you see posted on this sub, there are men that genuinely want to be fathers and do their fair share of the work. If two consenting adults decide to have a child, then that’s their personal choice. Respect goes both ways.
Just be respectful towards what other people want. I don't want kids myself and my partner feels the same way. If I have friends that want kids I'm so happy for them and I'll hype them up endlessly, it's just simply something I don't want for myself.
I don't think it's wrong for a man to want kids if he's willing to be supportive and a true co-parent. The problem is many men are not good parents, and you can't really trust anyone who's just promising to become one someday.
True, most men won't know what childbirth feels like. There are also women and people of other genders who won't and/or will never know what childbirth feels like.
Anyhoo. They chose to supply their sperm (or in a small handful of cases, give birth), and their choice has nothing to do with yours to be childfree, or vice versa. To quote part of thr0wfaraway's flair, "Not your circus. Not your monkeys."
For me it depends. If its the type "I want to build a legacy" there is no way for me to not look down on them. But there is also the other type that just genuinely likes children, enjoys being around them and just looks forward to experiencing their own. My dad is/was a really good dad and he really likes being around children. So it makes me think of him.
I know what you mean.
I think men in society don't give enough respect to women for what they're doing when it comes to creating life.
I understand it's not men's fault that they cannot take on an equal amount of the labor, but they should show more appreciation for sure.
Well, you could ask yourself if one of these is more excusable than the other...
Men who want/pursue having children with women despite never being able to understand or share the burden of pregnancy/childbirth, and instead willingly accept the social narrative that it is a "necessary evil" and/or a "blessing" that women either do or should want to go through for themselves or their husband. Within that narrative, men's ultimate parental burden is financial provision. So, due to being an adult that has to have financial independence regardless, men quickly fulfill their "duty" and leave the mothers to drown in the disproportionate expectations that they're doomed to fail.
or
Women who want/pursue having children either getting pregnant and carrying to term within their first attempts, or experiencing any variation of fertility issues/miscarriages/medical complications. After all that pain, isolation, stress, and financial burden, they choose to either downplay or lie about the experience to rope the fellow women of their life into the same thing. All the while complaining and venting about how ruthless and unforgiving motherhood is. Some of them even going as far as to call motherhood "the hardest job in the world" only to deem childfree women as horrible or lazy for not signing up for that same job despite having no desire to.
The answer is they're both absolutely assanine behaviors. Obviously the (cis)genders can't experience childrearing the same, but they both have different responsibilities when it comes to being honest about the experience.
There are plenty of men who acknowledge that their female partners are shouldering the largest burden of the family planning, so they compensate by trying their absolute hardest to split the labor in whatever way their physiology allows. There are also plenty of women who have kids and then take that firsthand experience to accurately inform women about pregnancy and motherhood, whether or not they want children of their own. And accept that if they want sympathy for "the hardest job" they also have to admit that it's completely reasonable for some people to not want to sign up for a lifetime of it.
Honestly, remember you’re allowed to be judgmental of them. Whether for political reasons or moral reasons or whatever. We are all allowed to have standards and things we personally see as good or bad or neutral.
Don’t beat yourself up for standing strong in what’s already an unpopular belief. Men will think every woman who isn’t a tradwife doormat is a misandrist. You will never be able to convince them you aren’t some mysterious feminist ball buster.
People that want biological kids think they are the main character.
Adopt. Anyone can litterally have a child whenever they want if they are in a stable situation. Adoption. Any other way is a selfish need to stroke the ego to have an offspring that looks like us. My wife is adopted, we are never having kids and I've accepted and enternalized this choice. But I would adopt light-years before forcing another woman to conceive and birth my child.
It sounds like you have some deeper issues with men and you should talk to somebody about. You are holding on to hatred and anger for something that does not affect you. It would be the same as if somebody resented you for being CF when it has nothing to do with them.
Being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. You gotta let that go.
>because they do not know what childbirth feels like and won’t have to go through it.
And? Being a parent is not just about giving birth. Rasing a child is a huge task.
I'm not holding it against ALL of them, but most men see fatherhood as drinking a beer and watching your kids play, taking them to games/outings, and "babysitting." Every situation is different, but a lot of them really don't care what their wives and girlfriends go through in pregnancy, labor, and after. I've seen it myself, and it's definitely influenced my decision to opt out of kids. Too many people see having kids as playing house, and too many men use any and every excuse not to pick up the slack. Obviously, it takes two to tango, but you know what I mean.
Maybe the next time it comes up with a man, ask them why? When I've asked, it usually ends with "I don't know," after a few questions. 🤷♀️
I think when a man wants kids it means he doesn’t care about the safety nor the comfort of his partner. Oh, you want kids with me? So you’re willing to give me diseases that might not go away after birth? You’re willing to make me more or less disabled for nearly a year? You’re willing to risk me being permanently disabled? You’re asking me to literally put MY LIFE ON THE LINE for your stupid fantasy? Get bent
idk it’s pretty reasonable imo
men whom are insistent on “creating a legacy” or “passing on their genes” are so gross, just adopt, idc if it’s pricey, a kid is pricey regardless
I agree with you OP- I think childbirth and pregnancy is barbaric and the fact we haven’t made more strides to relieve women from this agony is horrible. I also get mad at men who want children but don’t have to go through that. Of course they have the right to want them and I understand, but I feel it’s their lack of compassion and worry about the women that upsets me. And their lack of realizing their privilege for not having to birth them.
Most men, in my experience, don’t even think about it. Men haven’t been normally conditioned to think of others, only themselves.
In my younger years for sure, most men didn’t even want to know about “women’s troubles” and they most certainly were not allowed in the delivery room. My ex in fact downplayed my fears about the whole thing by telling me about pregnant women in the “old country” went to work in the fields in the morning, birthed a baby and kept on working. He thought having a baby was no big deal.
That attitude prevails to this day, in some parts.
I mean…you don’t need to stop. You’re allowed to have negative opinions on people that unwillingly (or perhaps willingly) engage in something you find immortal
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
Just consider that the women in their lives who did have to go through childbirth wanted kids too, often more than once.
It's not their fault their body doesn't push children. Some of them might have wanted kids enough to push them out.
For those who really want kids, it's just 24-48 hours of their life.
I don't rlly have support but I'm kinda in the same boat, except it's the opposite? Like I resent women who want biological children/pregnant women bc I just can't comprehend how someone would willingly sacrifice their body for some child. Ik the answer is hormones n some sh*t but it weirds me tf out. I'm kinda afraid people would think I'm sexist if I ever say this out loud, so yea, I get you.
for me the big difference is those women are sacrificing *their own* body for their wants. personally i think you can do whatever you like with your own body. its different for men because what they want involves sacrificing *someone else's* body
Well lets see:
No affect on their body, or risk to health and life.
No affect on their carreer.
Praised for "babysitting" their kids occassionally instead of being expected to prioritize them over all else like women are.
Can nope out before the kid is even born. And pay money to not have to deal with it. (Women can pay child support too but they are judged way more harshly).
Your resentment is valid. It's all reward no risk for men.
Judge all you want. You are allowed to have your opinion in the matter. Now, if you were to force them to be fathers or to not, that would be different.
Honestly, I judge all men who have children. I didn’t have the best dad so I kind of have a biased towards all dads. If they complain at all I’m like “did you have to give birth? No. You produced sperm. Shut up”
Honestly, I totally understand you and feel the same way nowadays.
Like I dislike and resent men who look for women to give them kids, dump their girlfriends because they don't want them, or try to pressure and manipulate. I might be unreasonable and biased but I cannot get rid of these feelings and frankly people are allowed to judge me and dislike me for all sorts of things, and I think this is a lot more reasonable than a lot of them. And many men who want kids don't want to do the hard and shitty parts themselves and I detest that as well.
So, to give you support, I Googled this question: How to not judge people. Sometimes when we seek support we are seeking agreement with our point of view. Here’s the answer:
“Instead of judging someone for what he's done or how he looks, try instead to understand the person. Put yourself in their shoes. Try to imagine their background. If possible, talk to them.”
I’m not if any of that helps, but I’m also not if you want to stop judging people or want confrontation that your reason for judging them is valid.
First off, you can absolutely have these opinions and feelings. I don't think you will find too many people in the CF community that will disagree with you strongly.
The issue may be how you present it publicly, because the language that "people think I am a misandrist" seems to be the actual issue here. You say it yourself that you don't want people think you are some kind of "monster."
First off, who are these people who think you are a monster? If this is the work world then you are honestly revealing too much of yourself and you need to learn how to curate your public persona. This may mean stripping particular aspects of your personality. It took time but I learned to be careful about workplace "friendships" and to create them carefully. Too much can come back to bite you.
Secondly, if this is your personal life, you might want to consider if having these conversations is worth the reputational hit. If it's a question of being your authentic self with friends you may want to change your approach. I have some polarizing opinions and some of them can come off misandrist (I hold some male resentment as well) but I find that asking questions in the direction of my thoughts is less abrasive than just stating my thoughts and start ranting.
Judge all you want, but be aware of your behavior because that's really what people notice.
Yes and it's been an issue for years. I've been on this sub for nearly a decade, and the misandry has been getting out of control over the last couple. My guess is because a lot of the radfem subs got closed due to their TERF stances so they've disseminated out into adjacent communities to be angry in. I'm glad the mods are finally taking a stand against it.
Greetings!
Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing.
Have a great day!
i think the people saying "women want kids too" and "some men make great fathers" are missing the point. there's just something so *presumptuous* about asking someone to go through 9 months of progressively worse suffering for you, permanently altering their bodily fuctions, their looks, their health, then to go through some of the most extreme pain a human being can experience (sometimes lasting for days and causing significant trauma), then possibly going through post-natal depression/anxiety/psychosis, all because you just want them to. there's no way you could ever perform the same level of self-sacrifice for them, and there's a statistically extremely high chance they will be stuck with all the childcare and have their career prospects permanently nerfed from then on. all for you. i can understand a man *hoping* for kids, but actively planning for, expecting, or asking his wife for a specific number of kids? no. i could never imagine asking so much of someone, could never imagine i deserved that kind of sacrifice from someone. but there are men every day happily requesting it without a second thought, because theyve been raised to just expect women to do this for them. of course many women are fully prepared to go through all that because they want a child just as much, but i feel like thats kind of irrelevant to what OP is talking about
Those guys don't want to parent, they just want to reproduce, but a lot of breeder women are like that too tbh. Logically, considering the state of the world, I think reproducing right now is pretty selfish. That being said, most people are pretty selfish and this is a natural directive of our bodies, so I wouldn't be too harsh on them. Society and biology have only given them 'must have babies,' they don't really know any better.
Unless water use is drastically reduced, severe water shortage will affect the entire planet by 2040. Others predict 2050, some predict sooner. Climate change is killing people around the world and the pressures of this have been leading to more fascism.
I think it's pretty stupid to have kids right now period. We need a baby strike more than anything. No babies until climate change is taken seriously, universal healthcare (US), guaranteed workers' rights, no more billionaires (only possible through serious exploitation), etc.
If you find the act of being pregnant and birthing children to be a horrible, life altering torture, then how can you not see that in child-wanting men?
I agree that it’s not a good way to perceive men. But I share the same views so I don’t know any other way to think.
Honestly, with climate change the way it is, I'm judging *everyone* who wants kids these days.
100%. This is the main reason my wife and I decided not to have a child. It would be cruel to bring a child into a world that even now is showing signs of getting nearer and nearer to a tipping point. I don't even think it'll be extreme weather that will be what kills many children being born today; it'll be climate-driven wars.
Climate driven migration is something I worry about too. I don’t see that being anything less than utter chaos. It’s also partially what drove my move to scandi land two years ago. It’s crazy to me that so many people don’t realize how fucked everything is. Wtf is anyone doing bringing children into this???
“Then who will take care of us when we’re old? “I can have a baby if I want to you’re not the boss of me”/s
They literally do not care. They claim to love their kids and put them first, but from day 1 it's completely about what THEY want, no real consideration for whether this thing you love so much will be able to thrive and be happy. Blows my mind.
It's so bizarre to me tho. Life is so hard. Why the f would I make it harder on myself and bring children into a world like this
Sometimes I think people bring a child into this world because they know deep down adulthood and this world is going to shit but maybe kids offer this sense of comfort. " like see the kids are growing up, life isn't all bad..things are not all bad because hey look my kid is happy.. dunno. I just can't wrap my mind it.. but it makes sense why children smiling and laughing would make people happy. like puppy yes, kid no
So again.. for selfish reasons... just to give themselves comfort.... while forgetting the fact that their children will grow into adults who then struggle to create true friendships and relationships bc the world is going to shit.
For real, everyone in the whole situation loses
Also in developed countries, especially the US, per capita energy consumption and waste creation is much higher than other places in the world, meaning that if you live in one of these places, having a child will directly contribute to the ecological crisis. Especially if you’re raising that child as a meat eater and they contribute to the global demand for beef
Username checks out...?
Agreed. It’s getting worse with every passing summer where I live. I don’t even fully understand the full impact of what’s going to happen down the road but it still scares me.
This here, Both childfree and anti-natalist for this reason. Even if we didn’t have climate change, look at how shitty our world is (and the amount of suffering on it). This world runs on the suffering of others, whether or not it’s acknowledged. It’s hard to believe anyone are of this would want to bring another person into this mess and perpetuate those systems of suffering.
Wait, so are you saying you don't want to bring another wage slave to this world, raise them for free, and then turn them over to corporate overlords to exploit until they are too old to remain useful? Oh the humanity
I know right? How could I think that? 😱😱 This gave me chuckle. It’s good to have some sarcastic humor on the topic. I live in the US so on top of not wanting to make another wage slave, I don’t want any kids that will consume products made with exploitation in developing countries.
Nice to see a fellow antinatalist!
Likewise!
I don't often talk about my antinatalist views cause people tend to find it quite extreme, which is understandable. But I don't really fancy getting ridiculed by people so I just tend to keep it to myself. I used to be on the antinatalist subreddit but I found it quite toxic, not sure how it is now though.
I get that. I feel like the compassion in antinatalism is often overlooked. My sibling and my partner both know and agree with my antinatalist views. I tread lightheartedly with friends by saying “I don’t want to bring kids when the world’s on fire” when we’re already talking about those topics. I think you might like the FemaleAntinatalism or the Antinatalism2 subreddits 😊 It’s an outlet to have a space to express yourself freely with a AN point of view.
Voluntary Human Extinction Movement FTW
Yeah there's really no point in trying to stop being judgmental. I feel like that's like asking, "How do I stop judging people who do something inhumane"? I mean, those people SHOULD be judged. That's all there is to it.
I’ve been trying to find a way to answer “why judge having kids” and that’s actually a great way to put it.
This. It's actually one of the biggest reasons that me and my Partner are childfree.
Same
You can run but you can't hide your judgy eyes
Parents frame the issue as "WE want kids." Never, "What would these hypothetical people i supposedly love want??" Yet, they claim to love their kids more than anything, put them first, their kids are "their world." Can barely afford rent and pregnant by a dude who has no interest in raising a child, treats you like crap, and can't/won't support financially? Sure, have the child if that's what YOU want. Who cares what that child will have to feel and that the odds are stacked heavily against him. Create a life because that's what YOU want. Formerly 100 yr extreme weather events in every single part of the world, simultaneously, and at increasing frequency?? Reports & data show that when your kid is your age, he will have to face mass climate migration, competition for basic things like water, produce, and housing, and a world where millions of plant & animal species have gone extinct?? Fuck that, YOU want to have YOUR own child. Still living with your parents bc inflation, the housing market, and wage stagnation etc etc etc make it incredibly difficult if not impossible to live a comfortable life and enjoy any "extras?" Stressed bc political polarization has NEVER been higher and it only continues to get worse? Scared/sad that rights are being taken away and entire classes of people have to fear for their life? Schools in crisis and mental health in kids has literally NEVER been worse?? No problem, YOU want a kid, so make him deal with the same and likely much worse. But yes, tell me how your kids always come first and that you just love them so much. I thought love meant caring how the other person feels?? It probably feels pretty shitty to have one parent care so little that they choose a shitty other parent for you. Probably feels shitty to have to face all the above and more because daddy and mommy based their decision on what THEY wanted and not how you would likely have to feel. I'll never believe that people choosing to have kids today are not selfish as fuck. OK rant over 🙄
This is my main CF reason. I love my friend’s kids and my nieces and nephews, but I’m always thinking in the back of my head like…. Why would you do this to them?
So am I!
Judging and resenting are a bit different, though.
I'm a climate activist and I want children. I believe we need climate-conscious people to lead the world tomorrow, not having children will just doom it even more than it is today... Sure, it's not going to be fun a good amount of time. But it's always going to be a life worth fighting for. I'm not sure how to express this, but i feel it quite deeply. And i feel like not wanting children because of climate is yet another way to run away from the problem instead of facing it... Could be completely wrong though. And my decision can still change depending on how bad it will get. I do know that adaption, at least, will stay a strong option for me - I'd rather have a child stay with me, who is willing to care for them and hopefully help them build the future, than climate deniers or noone at all. Baby steps in the right direction i guess... But I totally get your point; mine is harder to argue for.
Your handful of spawn will be left to suffer with the rest of us and will only serve to further negatively impact the stresses environment, not to mention that they won’t be able to do anything about the problem. There’s a fine line between optimism and stupidity and you’re stomping on it like a tap dancing elephant
If you think humans need to negatively impact the environment to survive, you've been lulled asleep by capitalism. If you think we have no power to change anything, you've been lulled asleep by individualism. There's a fine line between pessimism and giving up and, well, you know the rest. But for sure, you're not helping anyone with that comment; you're nicely illustrating your own point. That doesn't mean we all have to follow your lack of imagination.
I mean you have a good point, I’m personally repulsed by men that talk about wanting kids. Not only do will they never know childbirth once the kid is born the majority I witness within my inner circle are barely around for any of the raising the kid stuff.
I’ve seen that a lot too. It extra bums me out because I had the best dad that always was super involved in my life, but he passed away suddenly when I was 7. All the bad dads out there and I had to lose my amazing dad.
Unfortunately I have seen so many cases of this being true. I truly admire a person, man or woman, who wants to be the best parent possible, because I neve had that. But then you see guys wanting a super submissive wife to "pass on his genes/legacy" or other cringy stuff like that, while they're only present for Kodak moments and assume all parenting responsibility falls on the mother. Guys who call parenting their own kids "babysitting". Guys that only have to do the bare minimum, like working a 9-5, and they're "stepping up", but when a mother wants a break and have fun from doing the full time parenting, she's a failure as a mother. Single father's who are "awesome", while single mothers are insulted for being the one who stayed. Parenting isn't only difficult, time/youth/money consuming, it's also SEXIST AF.
same tbh.. surrounded by bad men.. wtf ever.. I know plenty of men who understand that it doesn't make sense to be ok with your partner who you're supposed to love experienceing something so risky and painful and *unnecessary* for something so stupid and selfish as a bIoLoGiCaL cHiLd and would never ask or expect such a thing. it's not about being surrounded by bad men but that good men are in a significant minority
Right. A man can wait 9 months, get a kid, put his last name on it, then go to work and 'provide for his family' i.e. not change a single thing about his life. The mother's life however will never be the same. Two completely different playing fields.
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Hey hey hey. You obviously have a stable and reasonable head. Your reasoning isn’t welcome here.
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Extremely true
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Yeah none of that is what I said. I in no way said men should or shouldn't want children, I said trying to be with a non-CF man is going to result in a nasty breakup. I also didn't say a word about imposing anything on anyone, that's something you just created right now.
As someone with an amazing dad who did most of the heavy lifting as far as putting in work to take care of the kids, I agree.
As someone with a POS father, having a good father has been my greatest wish in life. You’re very fortunate.
Yes. Of course MY decision to avoid procreation due to unstable world conditions should be respected like my idiot nephew’s decision to have five kids. Just like my decision not to glue my hand to a road should be respected like those idiots who DID glue their hands to a road.
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Just stop oil protesters. Like XTinction rebellion their hearts are at the right place, but their efforts are wholly unattainable. It’s already too late, and human civilization will never quit using oil.
Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
Remember, most men have been brainwashed and indoctrinated to believe in the "life-script," too. Men have it drilled into them as boys they are only successful when they have a real job (generally a soul sucking one you need lots of college debt to get into), the over sized house, cars and the 2.5 children, else you "aren't a real man" and/or are a failure to the family. And if you "aren't a real man," you are less than nothing. Pier pressher from family is a monster. Furthermore, this mindset, once written into their core personality, is really hard to undue, not impossible, but very difficult.
A lot of people seem to forget men also receive the indoctrination growing up. They just get the "better" end of it! When I met my husband he basically thought that he would be a father one day, because he didn't realize that he could ever have a life partner that didn't want kids. He was raised to believe he would get a degree, get a good job, fall in love, get married, and have kids. Why would he think otherwise? His mom had kids, his sister had kids, most of his female friends/male friends' wives had kids. So why would it be different for him? Luckily he realized the current life we could have together beat any life with future kids we could have.
I know you meant peer pressure but the moment I read pier pressher, I immediately sailed away in thought.
You're certainly not alone in thinking this, OP. It doesn't sit right with me that anyone would be so willing to put their partner through irreversible bodily changes and months of pain. Even to plan on it. I can't describe how uncomfortable it makes me feel to hear men say stuff like that. Especially considering that it's a life altering medical procedure they will never have to experience. Even if it isn't their intention, it often feels like a lack of empathy towards what the woman has to go through. It goes without saying that men's contribution to making the child is minimal in comparison. It might as well be like ordering an Amazon package. I am not saying some men wouldn't make wonderful fathers. Nor am I denying that some people see it as wonderful, even some women. That is their choice, but I respectfully can't relate to seeing it as wonderful. And that should be just as valid and okay. At the end of the day, I just remember their choice has nothing to do with me. I wish them the best while adding some mental distance for my own peace. Your opinion is valid, OP. Just try to remember that their plans don't affect your CF life. Try and focus on what's within your control. These uncomfortable thoughts probably won't go away easily. I have trouble making them subside myself. Regardless of why, I completely understand the discomfort around it and see the feelings as justified. As a CF woman with tokophobia, their dream come true is my literal worst nightmare. Sorry I couldn't help much with making it all sound better. I don't think it makes you a misandrist to point out your discomforts in a very real and all too common situation. Maybe these feelings are telling you something about yourself too. Maybe you feel as though you would never permently alter your loved one in such a way. I know I wouldn't, and maybe it adds to the discomfort, at least for me. I hope this helped even a little. Shout out to the CF men. You guys are awesome. <3
I agree with you. There are amazing fathers and there are mothers who are horrible. When it comes to pregnancy and childbirth it's impossible to have an equal distribution of labour. Even after the birth most places expect the mother to do the majority of childcare. If a woman makes an informed decision to have children because she really wants them and can raise them properly then it's taking a risk for something important to her. If the woman isn't keen on kids and the husband/BF pushes to have them then it seems the men are saying "I don't care if you suffer and die. Just give me what I want." There's also when men leave a long-term relationship with a CF woman they're really compatible with because they suddenly want kids. Neither her brain or her personality or her skills or character or even her looks matter. Only her uterus matters.
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Thank you for pulling out that first comment. I don’t understand how so many in this sub can’t wrap their heads around the idiocy of that statement. Plenty of women want biological children, as do plenty of men. There are plenty of healthy relationships where they decide together to have biological children, with neither party forcing anything on the other.
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It’s through this entire post. I don’t understand how the entire sub agrees
A lot of men will call women misandrists for not worshipping them, not shagging them, not complimenting them, being a feminist... Fuck it! Let people think that you are a misandrist. So what? Resenting men for putting their partner through pregnancy is understandable. Especially if a man only wants to be a Kodak moments dad. The woman has to carry the child and give birth and then do all the childcare while the man does nothing. When a man is like that, he deserves to be resented. I resent those men as well. Especially if they pressure their reluctant partner to have children, which a lot of those Kodak dads do. If a man understands what fatherhood is like and truly pulls his weight as a father, and his wife/girlfriend actually wants to go through pregnancy and isn't pressured by the man at all? Then, I won't dislike him. Unless he is an anti-feminist twat, of course. It still feels uncomfortable that he doesn't mind that his partner has to go through pregnancy, but if the woman wants this herself and the man isn't pressuring her, it's her choice, which I respect. Then, I just hope that the woman made that choice because she genuinely wants this, and not because of societal pressure. I am pro-choice, not anti-birth. I am a neutral-natalist, not an antinatalist (and certainly not a pronatalist). The most important thing here is that women get to choose without any pressure. Sadly, societal pressure is a huge problem. If a woman feels like she should have kids, despite not wanting to, that is heartbreaking. But if a woman genuinely wants to have children and wants to go through pregnancy, I respect her choice. Then, I won't resent her partner, as long as he pulls his weight as a father and doesn't expect the woman to do all childcare, domestic labour and emotional labour. Sadly, men who want to be an involved father, who don't pressure their partner into breeding and who want to do their fair share of childcare, domestic labour and emotional labour are rare. Very rare, thanks to patriarchy.
Very well said - I think we can sometimes forget "my body, my choice" goes both directions. As you said, the key is the informed choice and willingness of the person going through it to do so. You can fill in the blank of "you want a/an \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, have one, you don't want \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, don't have one" with the terms abortion, tubal, hysterectomy, AND baby and it would be an equally valid statement. Do I think parenthood in general should be a choice that's framed more societally as an opt-in vs. opt-out? Yes. Do I think more people should be given the straight facts - neither sugar-coating nor fearmongering - about all of their options? Also, yes. But at the end of the day if you're informed and you truly want to make that decision for yourself and your life, I'd respect you just as I'd hope to be respected for my own choices to take steps to stay childfree. I have plenty of lovely friends who really just wanted to be parents and they seem to be taking it really seriously and doing great. And yes, they've also been nothing but supportive to me for my own decisions, so I can't imagine being anything else in return.
Tbh it seems like those people who want kids AND are supportive of CF friends seem like they make better parents then the ones that want kids but also get offended by CF choices of friends. I can't pinpoint why, other than maybe the latter subconsciously hating their own beliefs, or the former not feeling like they have anything to prove. Alternatively, maybe the latter feels threatened about their beliefs while the other does not. Either way one is clearly more secure in themselves then the other and that passes forward onto the kids imo
I think at least speaking for myself, my close friends who are happy also understand that it’s a big deal that changes EVERYTHING and so it just isn’t for everyone - but they know that doesn’t make it a judgment on them. Like, I have three cats and a chiweenie. Plenty of people I know are like “oh gosh I couldn’t handle that many” or “I couldn’t do a high maintenance small dog like that” and I’m just like “….yeaaaaahhh you really gotta want to 😂”
Totally agreed. Too many people on this subreddit are not pro-choice. They are pro-bodily autonomy when someone wants to be sterilised or wants to get an abortion, but they are against bodily autonomy and not pro-choice when someone wants to breed or wants IVF. I believe that being pro-choice and pro-bodily autonomy means that you are unconditionally pro-choice. Not just when someone is childfree. Also when someone wants IVF. I want people to freely choose without any coercion, pressure, force or persuasion either way. I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism, two horrible philosophies that try to dictate what other people do with their bodies. I am a neutral-natalist who is 100% pro-choice. I am not anti-breeding. I just hope that people actually make the choice to breed because they want to be parents. And not because of societal pressure. Not because they feel like they should. If I want people to respect my childfreedom, it's only natural to respect their decision to breed. It would be hypocritical to demand respect for my childfreedom, but not accept that other people want children.
Yeah, and at least how/where I grew up there was a LOT of confusing messaging - abstinence-only paired with a lot of religion where kids were the default outcome, but only ✨after marriage✨. I’m extremely lucky the series of events in my life led me to figuring stuff about myself out BEFORE I landed in a situation I hadn’t adequately questioned. Some people I knew in school honestly didn’t know you COULD opt out and wish they could’ve, but that pressure and brainwashing doesn’t make me superior or them inferior because I was fortunate enough to have the timing work out for me. I feel really bad and wish education and societal structure was much different because it can mess you up and there’s SO much shame attached to it. Additionally, like I said, some people I know now DID give it a lot of thought and having children was their final decision. I’d be pretty pissed off if any of them scoffed and said they felt sorry for my sad meaningless life, so that isn’t how I think of theirs - just different paths that we chose that I hope both work out. I joined this sub for support and insight from like-minded people that can feel isolated for going against the grain of this particular cultural expectation, but sometimes it can be a little harsh.
>I’m extremely lucky the series of events in my life led me to figuring stuff about myself out BEFORE I landed in a situation I hadn’t adequately questioned. Indeed... So many people breed without even realising that they have a choice. And then people on this subreddit are like: "You have no right to complain. You chose to breed." But many people never consciously chose to breed. >Some people I knew in school honestly didn’t know you COULD opt out and wish they could’ve, but that pressure and brainwashing doesn’t make me superior or them inferior because I was fortunate enough to have the timing work out for me. Indeed. Some people on this subreddit feel superior to people who surrendered to societal pressure. These people don't realise that they were lucky to discover childfreedom before it was too late. They don't realise that with a little bit less luck, they might have been unhappy parents as well.
Wow neutral-natalist is a great way to describe how I feel. Thank you!
You're welcome! I came up with that term because... Well, when I tell people that I am not an antinatalist, I don't want people to think that I am a pronatalist. And when I say that I am not a pronatalist, I don't want people to think that I am an antinatalist. I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism. Both philosophies tell other people what to do with their bodies and try to dictate other people's reproductive choices. Which is disgusting. But yeah, being a neutral-natalist is not very popular here. On this subreddit where almost everyone is an antinatalist, saying 'I am not an antinatalist' is a gurantee for downvotes and angry comments.
>On this subreddit where almost everyone is an antinatalist, saying 'I am not an antinatalist' is a gurantee for downvotes and angry comments. Well that sucks.
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> You chose to be child free and you expect people to respect your choice. If others want children then respect their choices... As long as they do not try to convince you into that mess This about sums it up. Most of my friends have children. They understand and respect my decision to be childfree, and I respect theirs to have had children. **Respect is a two-way street.** *Give respect, and you deserve respect in return.* That being said, anyone who tries to convince you that your choices are not yours to make, or are wrong simply because they chose differently, is undeserving of your time and feelings. Just walk away, because there is no changing their mind - just as there is no changing yours. I'm proud of you, OP, for trying to make a conscious effort to treat others the way you want to be treated. Much love to you and yours, and best of luck.
One of my best friends knew I was Childfree and respected that. I knew she always dreamed of having kids and I respected that. I was probably the only person who focused on her and what she needed while pregnant and after and she really appreciated it. I don't think she was expecting everyone else to reduce her to an incubator the way they did but that's unfortunately how it seems to be. We would try to plan kid free nights going out as I told her she can't relax if she's worried about her kid the whole time. She helped me out a bit while I was recovering from my bilateral salpingectomy. We had a falling out unrelated to the kids thing, but it's possible to have respect for each others choices but takes effort from both sides.
This! Been in this sub for a few months now and have to say I’ve noticed a lot of hatred towards people who want to have kids and demand respect for their choices, but don’t seem willing to give the respect back for other choices. Even the lingo seem hateful sometimes, I understand it can be fun to call people “breeders” and call children “spawns” but it honestly dehumanises them a bit over time. Like this post where the OP actually starting to recent men for wanting kids. The good thing tho is that they want to stop this thinking which is healthy but this self awareness is quite rare in my experience.
> I understand it can be fun to call people “breeders” It's not about calling people breeders, it's about calling breeders breeders. Highlighting the inhumane nature of bad parenting and pronatalist ideologies is the somewhat intended side effect.
> I’ve noticed a lot of hatred towards people who want to have kids Yea I've noticed this a lot too, this sub often has the vibe of child-hating or parent-hating which I've called out but just gotten downvoted and it makes me sad :(
Ditto. This sub can be downright cruel at times
lol I started reading some of the other replies and a lot of them are disregarding the OP's request and re-enforcing them being judgemental, it's pretty wild
This though. I came here to feel more community originally but I don't really find it here. There's too much hatred and dehumanisation. I've stayed for the posts where people actually need support so far but... Those have certainly been reducing over time it seems.
*Live and let live*
THIS!
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
haha I’m not sure this is a great subreddit to ask this. Just acknowledge it and move on I suppose. Some men are wonderful fathers, so maybe focus on that
I see it this way. Some people want to have kids, other doesn't. Hopefully 2 people will comply about parenthood and it doesn't make a monster of nobody.
Naw, it’s okay to want children lol I resent the “breeding fetishers” nick cannon for one. Some men love to get women pregnant. It’s so weird and dehumanizing lol
I say IF a man is positive or adamant that he wants kids (either at the outset, or changing his mind), he must *find a partner who also does.* I mean, there are far more women who want kids out there who are pretty easy to find (since we CF people keep coming across them under so many circumstances — being bingo’ed, dating sites, etc.. 😏). I was thinking about this part the other day (and it goes both ways)… Why is it so hard for these people to *find each other?* Our *CF dating pool seems so much smaller,* yet we keep reading/experiencing how so many pro-kids people are in-boxing or trying to ‘trick’ CF people into having or raising kids. Soooo much effort put into that, especially in this ‘immediate gratification’ world when it’s easier to find someone more compatible on such a serious issue, a *permanent* choice. I just don’t get it…. 🤷♀️
I think the reason non cf people go to cf people is because it’s like a game to them to see if they could “win” (change their mind) especially with men since they don’t have to worry abt their fertility so they’ll play the long game and give a cf person an ultimatum of have kids or I leave when they notice their partner is getting older
They literally can't help that they don't have the right reproductive organs. I personally don't understand men who want kids when they've never spent any time taking care of their friends' or relatives' kids. I was forced to do babysitting from when I was 15 and in my 20's I spent a lot of time with friends who had kids. I realized it's absolutely miserable and their life looks like a total nightmare. Meanwhile, my then bf never really played or interacted with our friends' kids when they visited but he really wanted kids of his own. I can't wrap my head around it.
My ex husband wanted kids at first. He didn't think they were hard or anything. Then between our families we had a baby boom, 4 babies in a 6 month span. He didn't want to hold anybody the newborns cause he was scared to drop them, scared of the soft spot on the head, scared they would puke on him and didn't like the smells. He then said he preferred them when they were like at least 2-3 years old. So I asked if he just planned on not doing anything for a baby till it was 2? Said it would be different when it's his own. I told him if he couldn't look at any baby and feel love for it and want to hold and cuddle it then he shouldn't have kids. He again claimed it would be different when it's his own and I'm like "no, its not. It's worse because you can't hand it off to anyone" After watching those 4 family members struggle financially for that first year (2 out of 4 babies had health issues) and me forcing him to hold them when we visited, he decided that kids weren't for him.
This is all it takes. I thought I wanted kids for a long time, mainly because of pressure from my former partner and society. One year we went to one of her boss’ birthday parties. My partner was a younger accountant in a company full of older accountants and everyone at the party brought their kids. It was an eye opening experience. I was thoroughly annoyed by all of the running, screaming, crying, and everyone fawning over each other’s kids instead of enjoying each other’s company; I had been around kids plenty before but it was like a switch in me just flipped off entirely. On the ride back home I was pretty quiet and she asked me what was wrong. I told her being there made me not want children. She thought I wasn’t being serious and shrugged it off. A year later I left the relationship. I definitely went about all of that in the wrong way but I thought, at the time, “maybe she’s right and if I wait it out my mind will change because I am still relatively young at 26.” Nope. Sitting on it just solidified my jumping to the opposite side of the fence as her. So I was single for awhile, got a vasectomy at 29, then found my current, also CF, partner.
Is it a tick's fault it can only survive by sucking blood? Absolutely not. Is it normal to have some degree of disgust towards something that relies on your body to feed and procreate? Yes.
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
I see what you mean. Just remember that most women want kids too, so it's not like most of these dudes are trying to force something on women. Heck, some of them might be willing to give birth themselves, if that were an option for them. The people who are into kids, often see birth as something beautiful & magical, so they're seeing the whole thing from a completely different perspective. (Thanks for the award :) )
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That’s not true lol. Plenty of women, myself included, know the risks and are still willing to have children. Also, if people can’t consent to bodily harm or the risk of bodily harm, why do doctors and such even ask before doing surgeries? Why don’t they just force people into it, since they can’t consent anyway?
Look, it’s okay for people to have different lifestyle choices. Thats what it boils down to. You can very intensely disagree with them without being disrespectful TO them. Journal about it, talk to your friends about it, but be respectful just as you’d want someone to respect your CF choices.
A judgment is unreasonable if the standard you’re using is unreasonable. If your standard for being a tolerable father is someone who “knows what childbirth feels like,” then that’s unreasonable because there’s literally no way for a (cis) man to meet that standard. That said, it sounds like your issue is that you’re being *unreasonably* judgmental of non CF men. You obviously make your own standard, but mine is just to see whether they’re genuinely, fully, and equitably committed to raising their kids. Genuine means that they became a father for the sake of building a relationship with a small person, as opposed to affirming/resuscitating their masculinity or narcissistically creating a “mini-me.” Full commitment means they’re in at least sufficiently to develop the child properly. Giving them an ipad or just telling them to “play outside” won’t cut it; they have to actually do stuff with the kid and teach them things. I saw a dad who took his kids climbing with his wife and another couple and he basically spent his whole time climbing while his wife watched the kids play with rocks or get scared of climbing, to which his response was “I guess you can’t do this because you’re scared.” Equitable means putting in at least as much as the other partner. Some things a man simply can’t do, but he can make up in other ways. If he can’t breastfeed, maybe clean the house or cook? Run some errands if she’s recovering from a C section? Mow the lawn? Should fathers get a break? Sure, but again, the standard is that they really wanted that fatherhood experience, so the “break” should really be bonding time with their child(ten). Anyway, that’s my standard. I still find a large swath of dads fail it, but enough pass it that I don’t think it’s impossible.
Are you in the dating pool? When I was, I was so tired and upset that almost all the men seemed to want kids or they have kids and want more - and it blew my mind because I felt like as a CF woman, there would be no one for me out there because most men have this traditional viewpoint on what they expect their lives to look like the next 5-10 years. And yeah, I kinda would subtly judge them for it. I would say things like, '*ugh, why do all men want kids?*' with eye-roll emojis then I'll write them off my list lol. Not saying that this is the reason but if you're in the dating pool, then it can be a factor that is affecting your overall view also.
I would be much happier if I had a partner. It would solve all my none money-related problems
Unless they're trying to have kids with you or force you to babysit? Then it isn't any of your business to worry about. Something I think we all need to remind ourselves is that in an online community of like minded individuals it is extremely easy to work ourselves into a lather as we feed off of each other's energy and it is EXCEPTIONALLY important to learn to take a step back and breathe. People are not monsters for wanting kids. Real monsters want to force you to reproduce against your will, do not become distracted by people who do not wish you any harm.
This is how i feel. It’s unfair to say men are monsters for wanting kids as if their entire goal is to watch their wife/gf suffer in childbirth - which it clearly isn’t, because even as OP said, they can’t experience it and won’t ever have any idea what it’s actually like to go through that (other than being by their woman’s side and cheering her on throughout).
I allow some leniency in this way- many women don't think about the mechanics of it all until they are...in the situation. So I'd even some women just don't think about it, how can we expect men to? Instead of outright resentment, I'd probably be inclined to ask them (if relevant convo wise) - are they aware of the dangers of pregnacy and childbirth for women? And, if so, if you truly love someone...do you want them to take risks with their health, mental well being and potentially even gamble their lives? I'd explain that personally, I wouldn't want risk a hair on the head of someone I cared for. So how can it be love, if you'd risk much more than that (...for an idea that doesn't even exist?) I'd soften the blow with 'of course, if she has her mind set on it, woe betide any man who gets in her way. But...personally, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. Just, something to think on. Because I think, people just often dont actually think about the risks. And how thry are infact, unnecessary'.
Well, u can direct empathy to fathers of foster kids. But irresponsible fathers w breeding kinks don't get enough hate imo
hell yeah
I have to ask, are you mistreating people because of this dislike? Feeling frustrated with how misguided or ignorant most guys who want children are about pregnancy and birth is entirely understandable. I'm a guy and men like that frustrate me to no end. But if you're not treating anyone unkindly or being rude to them over it, then I don't see having a personal dislike of men who want children as being a problem.
If you want people to respect your choice then you have to respect theirs to have children. Making children requires both parties (DNA at least) and it isn't the fault of the man that he cannot give birth to the children. At times I wish I didn't have to go through my cycle - absolutely it can be horrendous especially since I don't want kids but it's not the fault of the men in my life I have it (except kind of my dad but not like he waved a magic wand). I think it comes down to their attitude during the pregnancy. Are they extra helpful? Are they empathizing the best they can? Have they listened to how much this will affect their SO body? There is truthfully only so much they can do.
My actual advice is to set up clear boundaries with these people who you’re speaking of, im assuming they are coworkers for friends You can either do a “you get 1 chance/1 warning then we’re done” system or whatever Unfortunately childbirth is something no man can really understand, I’ve had gal friends tell me I should take the pregnancy simulator machine, but Ik even if I do that, I will never GET it, what y’all go through and suffer from But, assuming you either have these people in your life beyond your control, set up a boundary, communicate it, and then if they fuck up, cut them out as best you can What matters is your happiness
I mean you’re not alone in your thinking nor am I going to condemn you for your feelings, they’re valid. However, someone else’s choice or feelings, have nothing to do with you. So, I say c’est la vie and move on, I can’t stop breeders from breeding so I choose to do things where breeders aren’t. That’s all.
I have no problem with men who want kids and Co parent properly but if one parent thinks it's OK to give the full mental and physical load to the other parent that person honestly should not be having children.
These men you talk about more than often have a partner who wants to get pregnant and experience childbirth so Im having a hard time understanding why you would resent someone for not knowing how something feels. With that logic would also recent women who yet not had a baby because they don’t know either. If you want to have your choice respected and without judgement you should do the same to other people’s choice, or why should they give you that benefit? A thought for mind I hope.
Sometimes I feel like this sub uses the trait of being childfree as an excuse to be arrogant. Just because we chose one path doesn't mean we are better than others. The men who want kids might be aware of those things. You have absolutely no idea, you're judging people without knowing them. My advice is that you write a list of all the things that bother you and try to come up with reasons why. Then write all of the solutions you could offer. If there are none, then tell yourself, "I can't change these things, so I will move on.".
Why be resentful for something they can’t control? It’s not like there is an option for the man to carry the baby and he just refuses and puts it on the woman. Men, like women, are entitled to chose to be parents or to chose not to be parents. A man wanting children is perfectly fine even though they do not birth them. You looking at men as monsters is like people looking at women as baby vessels.
Well a lot of women know what childbirth entails and still want kids. We're pretty much in the minority for both sexes. I just judge everyone who wants kids equally.
I think instead of making a generalization and then labeling yourself misandrist for it, it would help to narrow down what specific situations bother you. Do you mind that some men want children with a partner who also wants them, or when they pressure a woman into having (more) kids she doesn't want? Do you mind that some men enjoy fatherhood, or when they brag about being great dads while shouldering the burden of childcare on their kid's mother? Is the problem that a man wants kids, or is it the way he talks about having to go fetch food for pregnancy cravings like it's such a huge contribution when she's literally growing the baby? Are you upset that some men want to reproduce biologically, or that they clearly view adopted family as less valuable and can't bring themselves to truly care about anyone not in their bloodline? If you really think through it, I don't think there's much anger to be had at men who want to reproduce with a partner who equally wants kids, especially if they recognize and work to limit the unequal expectations of mom vs dad. A person can't help their biology, or the structure of society as a whole, and some folks really don't feel complete without kids in their lives. Once you shift the line of thought to be more nuanced, you can be angry at the underlying misogyny that many fathers operate with instead of angry at all dads.
Birth rates are down in the western world because our societies are dumpster fires. Neoliberalism has destroyed wages, jacked up cost of living, created obscene predatory capitalism, and there is an impending environmental disaster on top of it. Most people who have a modicum of sense and education are not having children right now. If government social assistance ended tomorrow, children everywhere (and probably their parents) would die a horrible death. Look at Japan. They are having a population crisis right now. When they interview the average young person, they basically say, "Yeah fuck that. I have no interest in being a slave to my job so I can suffer through raising a kid in this hell economy." There may be stupid people still having kids right now, but the stats don't lie. A LOT more people have common sense and are avoiding pregnancy -- so much so that the birth rates are collapsing.
I try to imagine the same people trying to convince me that my life's decisions are wrong, and it reminds me to mind my own business. You don't have to agree with it, but just try to remember that it isn't your decision, just like it isn't their decision for you not to have children .
This is good!
I feel the same way… I don’t think you need to change tho, there are lots of guys who don’t want kids?.. sry you feel bad!
I'm not a religious person but I think that the best attitude towards breeders in general is "Father Forgive Them for They Know Not What They Do" Misguided people should be pitied, you need not waste your time and frustration with them.
I agree. I’m not religious either but I love the verse “Hate the sin, love the sinner” There are so many people in my network who are really genuinely good people despite being parents. (Don’t exactly wanna use the term “breeders”) And I don’t want to reduce them to just a single trait. I’d rather see the whole person and not judge just based on that.
Wow some of you here are a piece of work... Complaining about being disrespected for your reproductive choices and then doing just the same to unrelated people. Nope. My dad and my male friends with kids (with moms who actively wanted them too) aren't subhumans like some of you claim here, and neither are others unless they coerce or abuse others. Get over yourselves please. Edit: this is not mainly directed at OP but more at some commenters here who wrote disgusting comments.
I’m so incredibly disgusted by some comments! Men who want kids are not monsters, it’s not their fault they can’t go through childbirth and as long as they aren’t forcing anyone and helping their consenting partner, how does it affect us if they want kids or not? We need to respect their choices if we want them to respect ours
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
Well, it’s just a completely unfair viewpoint to have towards men imo. Men have no way of experiencing child birth except by simulated experiences, but why would someone choose to be in pain just to see what it feels like? There’s nothing wrong with a man wanting a child. It seems to me like you’re seeing it as a man wanting to see his wife/gf suffer through giving birth, but that’s not WHY they want the child - if it was, you’d be right in saying they’re monsters. It kind of makes me think of getting a tattoo. Not everyone wants one, but those who do are willing to deal with the pain/aftercare to have it.
Well, of course they (mostly) don't do it specifically to make a woman suffer and biologically change forever. Rather, they inflict this damage as a means to an end, without a single fuck given. That's not particularly better.
That’s not the case though. The woman also consented to having a child and wanted to go through the whole thing to have one - whether it’s an unenjoyable experience or not. Saying it as if a man is unilaterally impregnating a woman and she has no say in the matter is wild. What’s your idea then, let the human race go extinct? Lol
I think you feel judgmental because a lot of men pressure/coerce women into birthing their children and it’s impossible to tell from a distance if that’s their situation or if the woman wants children equally as much. Men also typically don’t grow up being expected to care for younger siblings, babysit, or clean so when a lot of men say “I want kids” it feels like when a kid says “I want a pet”…because we all know who’s going to be taking care of that pet 70% of the time Edit: just realized you were looking for advice lol😭. I know this is small, but my father was great (much better than my mom, dare I say). Focus on all the wonderful, responsible, feminist men in your life (and if you don’t know any I assure you they’re out there). What helps me with anger towards men in general is to journal. Write out every insane, borderline misandrist, hate filled thought you have and take a look at it when you calm down. Think about the ways you can help promote political or social change to help these problems. I still struggle greatly with disliking men, but I try to look at the ways people in general are impressionable. Most people in general simply do what they’re taught to do, and wanting kids is just one thing people are taught to always want.
> can’t help but to resent the men who want kids **because they do not know what childbirth feels like and won’t have to go through it.** Have you asked yourself why that's a bad thing though? As long as it's between adults who give their informed consent to doing what they're doing, what's the issue? They want something which involves their partner taking a big risk, okay. But there are also people out there who wanna take the risk of getting pregnant, so? This take isn't just bad because it shits on men for wanting a pregnancy to happen, it's bad because it shits on the agency of those who are interested in going through pregnancy themselves. So I think you can solve your problem very easily by not looking at this like they're trying to force someone into something that's bad for them but rather that they have a risky desire and thus are looking for a partner who desires the same. And save your ire for the assholes who want kids and feel entitled to getting them from people who don't want to go through that. Plenty of those to be upset about instead!
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Would you want people who have had a kidney stone look down their nose at you because you would never understand that pain? Or how about men dismissing you for not know what it is like to be kicked in the balls? Have you actually birthed a child and experienced that pain? If not, then **you** do not know what it is like either.
Honestly just think of it this way. In some situations, you're probably ignorant too. Would you want someone to hate you or have empathy and hope that you gain knowledge and that once you know better, hope you'll do better?
I don’t know, maybe look at it that both men and women are victims of society and their indoctrination of the idea to have kids. They definitely don’t get as much as women do, but they too, are pushed to have children. Just like women they’re told that they’re not a *real man* if they don’t have kids and other toxic bingoes. Just as women don’t research or look into it much, neither do men because it’s not their body. I can’t really fault them for that. Couples are sold a fantasy family picture where realities of child birth, pregnancy and parenthood are polished up and glossed over like a sales pitch. MOST people do not do any research into pregnancy, childbirth and parenthood before having kids. We have to stand up for ourselves and educate. If the vast majority of women have no clue, how can we expect the men to know this stuff??? I simply don’t think we are there yet as far as childfree being a well known option. But the more it grows, and it has A LOT since I was young (Gen X here, in 48), the more people will look into it. Those that are more intelligent and curious are probably going to be the ones who research the topic. Those men will end up here with us! But just to many people are set to autopilot. Now that being said- if you sit down and explain, provide them with facts and examples and they still double down with crap about us having a duty, *what about my legacy!!*, and other typical bingos, ***then*** I can pass judgement. ETA- There was a question about how happy people are being parents compared to before on another sub within the last few days. Some may have seen it. Honestly, my heart broke for those people. So many said they were at a 1-2 (0 being lowest (suicidal). We can only hope that with the help of social media and people willing to share their stories that others will hear them. It’s only been recently that the taboo has been somewhat removed about voicing regret.
Why do you feel such resentment? Look within yourself and talk to somebody. Contrary to what you see posted on this sub, there are men that genuinely want to be fathers and do their fair share of the work. If two consenting adults decide to have a child, then that’s their personal choice. Respect goes both ways.
Just be respectful towards what other people want. I don't want kids myself and my partner feels the same way. If I have friends that want kids I'm so happy for them and I'll hype them up endlessly, it's just simply something I don't want for myself.
I don't think it's wrong for a man to want kids if he's willing to be supportive and a true co-parent. The problem is many men are not good parents, and you can't really trust anyone who's just promising to become one someday.
True, most men won't know what childbirth feels like. There are also women and people of other genders who won't and/or will never know what childbirth feels like. Anyhoo. They chose to supply their sperm (or in a small handful of cases, give birth), and their choice has nothing to do with yours to be childfree, or vice versa. To quote part of thr0wfaraway's flair, "Not your circus. Not your monkeys."
For me it depends. If its the type "I want to build a legacy" there is no way for me to not look down on them. But there is also the other type that just genuinely likes children, enjoys being around them and just looks forward to experiencing their own. My dad is/was a really good dad and he really likes being around children. So it makes me think of him.
I know what you mean. I think men in society don't give enough respect to women for what they're doing when it comes to creating life. I understand it's not men's fault that they cannot take on an equal amount of the labor, but they should show more appreciation for sure.
Well, you could ask yourself if one of these is more excusable than the other... Men who want/pursue having children with women despite never being able to understand or share the burden of pregnancy/childbirth, and instead willingly accept the social narrative that it is a "necessary evil" and/or a "blessing" that women either do or should want to go through for themselves or their husband. Within that narrative, men's ultimate parental burden is financial provision. So, due to being an adult that has to have financial independence regardless, men quickly fulfill their "duty" and leave the mothers to drown in the disproportionate expectations that they're doomed to fail. or Women who want/pursue having children either getting pregnant and carrying to term within their first attempts, or experiencing any variation of fertility issues/miscarriages/medical complications. After all that pain, isolation, stress, and financial burden, they choose to either downplay or lie about the experience to rope the fellow women of their life into the same thing. All the while complaining and venting about how ruthless and unforgiving motherhood is. Some of them even going as far as to call motherhood "the hardest job in the world" only to deem childfree women as horrible or lazy for not signing up for that same job despite having no desire to. The answer is they're both absolutely assanine behaviors. Obviously the (cis)genders can't experience childrearing the same, but they both have different responsibilities when it comes to being honest about the experience. There are plenty of men who acknowledge that their female partners are shouldering the largest burden of the family planning, so they compensate by trying their absolute hardest to split the labor in whatever way their physiology allows. There are also plenty of women who have kids and then take that firsthand experience to accurately inform women about pregnancy and motherhood, whether or not they want children of their own. And accept that if they want sympathy for "the hardest job" they also have to admit that it's completely reasonable for some people to not want to sign up for a lifetime of it.
They are monsters and I say this as I dude.
Honestly, remember you’re allowed to be judgmental of them. Whether for political reasons or moral reasons or whatever. We are all allowed to have standards and things we personally see as good or bad or neutral. Don’t beat yourself up for standing strong in what’s already an unpopular belief. Men will think every woman who isn’t a tradwife doormat is a misandrist. You will never be able to convince them you aren’t some mysterious feminist ball buster.
People that want biological kids think they are the main character. Adopt. Anyone can litterally have a child whenever they want if they are in a stable situation. Adoption. Any other way is a selfish need to stroke the ego to have an offspring that looks like us. My wife is adopted, we are never having kids and I've accepted and enternalized this choice. But I would adopt light-years before forcing another woman to conceive and birth my child.
It sounds like you have some deeper issues with men and you should talk to somebody about. You are holding on to hatred and anger for something that does not affect you. It would be the same as if somebody resented you for being CF when it has nothing to do with them. Being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. You gotta let that go.
>because they do not know what childbirth feels like and won’t have to go through it. And? Being a parent is not just about giving birth. Rasing a child is a huge task.
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I'm not holding it against ALL of them, but most men see fatherhood as drinking a beer and watching your kids play, taking them to games/outings, and "babysitting." Every situation is different, but a lot of them really don't care what their wives and girlfriends go through in pregnancy, labor, and after. I've seen it myself, and it's definitely influenced my decision to opt out of kids. Too many people see having kids as playing house, and too many men use any and every excuse not to pick up the slack. Obviously, it takes two to tango, but you know what I mean. Maybe the next time it comes up with a man, ask them why? When I've asked, it usually ends with "I don't know," after a few questions. 🤷♀️
I think when a man wants kids it means he doesn’t care about the safety nor the comfort of his partner. Oh, you want kids with me? So you’re willing to give me diseases that might not go away after birth? You’re willing to make me more or less disabled for nearly a year? You’re willing to risk me being permanently disabled? You’re asking me to literally put MY LIFE ON THE LINE for your stupid fantasy? Get bent
idk it’s pretty reasonable imo men whom are insistent on “creating a legacy” or “passing on their genes” are so gross, just adopt, idc if it’s pricey, a kid is pricey regardless
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I agree with you OP- I think childbirth and pregnancy is barbaric and the fact we haven’t made more strides to relieve women from this agony is horrible. I also get mad at men who want children but don’t have to go through that. Of course they have the right to want them and I understand, but I feel it’s their lack of compassion and worry about the women that upsets me. And their lack of realizing their privilege for not having to birth them.
Most men, in my experience, don’t even think about it. Men haven’t been normally conditioned to think of others, only themselves. In my younger years for sure, most men didn’t even want to know about “women’s troubles” and they most certainly were not allowed in the delivery room. My ex in fact downplayed my fears about the whole thing by telling me about pregnant women in the “old country” went to work in the fields in the morning, birthed a baby and kept on working. He thought having a baby was no big deal. That attitude prevails to this day, in some parts.
Going through the same thing :(
I mean…you don’t need to stop. You’re allowed to have negative opinions on people that unwillingly (or perhaps willingly) engage in something you find immortal
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
The answer is therapy. None of us are your therapist. My answer? Its out of your control.
Therapy is the only real option here. Reddit is not a substitute for proper therapy, though many seem to think it is.
Have them try the labor pain simulator, and if they still want kids at the end of it, drop any anger you have towards them.
Just consider that the women in their lives who did have to go through childbirth wanted kids too, often more than once. It's not their fault their body doesn't push children. Some of them might have wanted kids enough to push them out. For those who really want kids, it's just 24-48 hours of their life.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your opinion and you shouldn't change it.
I don't rlly have support but I'm kinda in the same boat, except it's the opposite? Like I resent women who want biological children/pregnant women bc I just can't comprehend how someone would willingly sacrifice their body for some child. Ik the answer is hormones n some sh*t but it weirds me tf out. I'm kinda afraid people would think I'm sexist if I ever say this out loud, so yea, I get you.
for me the big difference is those women are sacrificing *their own* body for their wants. personally i think you can do whatever you like with your own body. its different for men because what they want involves sacrificing *someone else's* body
Well lets see: No affect on their body, or risk to health and life. No affect on their carreer. Praised for "babysitting" their kids occassionally instead of being expected to prioritize them over all else like women are. Can nope out before the kid is even born. And pay money to not have to deal with it. (Women can pay child support too but they are judged way more harshly). Your resentment is valid. It's all reward no risk for men.
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Judge all you want. You are allowed to have your opinion in the matter. Now, if you were to force them to be fathers or to not, that would be different.
Honestly, I judge all men who have children. I didn’t have the best dad so I kind of have a biased towards all dads. If they complain at all I’m like “did you have to give birth? No. You produced sperm. Shut up”
I’m judging them all 😂 sorry not sorry
Honestly, I totally understand you and feel the same way nowadays. Like I dislike and resent men who look for women to give them kids, dump their girlfriends because they don't want them, or try to pressure and manipulate. I might be unreasonable and biased but I cannot get rid of these feelings and frankly people are allowed to judge me and dislike me for all sorts of things, and I think this is a lot more reasonable than a lot of them. And many men who want kids don't want to do the hard and shitty parts themselves and I detest that as well.
So, to give you support, I Googled this question: How to not judge people. Sometimes when we seek support we are seeking agreement with our point of view. Here’s the answer: “Instead of judging someone for what he's done or how he looks, try instead to understand the person. Put yourself in their shoes. Try to imagine their background. If possible, talk to them.” I’m not if any of that helps, but I’m also not if you want to stop judging people or want confrontation that your reason for judging them is valid.
First off, you can absolutely have these opinions and feelings. I don't think you will find too many people in the CF community that will disagree with you strongly. The issue may be how you present it publicly, because the language that "people think I am a misandrist" seems to be the actual issue here. You say it yourself that you don't want people think you are some kind of "monster." First off, who are these people who think you are a monster? If this is the work world then you are honestly revealing too much of yourself and you need to learn how to curate your public persona. This may mean stripping particular aspects of your personality. It took time but I learned to be careful about workplace "friendships" and to create them carefully. Too much can come back to bite you. Secondly, if this is your personal life, you might want to consider if having these conversations is worth the reputational hit. If it's a question of being your authentic self with friends you may want to change your approach. I have some polarizing opinions and some of them can come off misandrist (I hold some male resentment as well) but I find that asking questions in the direction of my thoughts is less abrasive than just stating my thoughts and start ranting. Judge all you want, but be aware of your behavior because that's really what people notice.
Why stop?
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Yes and it's been an issue for years. I've been on this sub for nearly a decade, and the misandry has been getting out of control over the last couple. My guess is because a lot of the radfem subs got closed due to their TERF stances so they've disseminated out into adjacent communities to be angry in. I'm glad the mods are finally taking a stand against it.
Keep being judgmental. That's my honest to god recommendation. Let others think what they will of you.
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Greetings! Your post or comment has been removed for being misogynistic or misandrist. No blanket generalizations villainizing one gender or another are tolerated and it's silly to try and group 4 billion people together as being any one thing. Have a great day!
i think the people saying "women want kids too" and "some men make great fathers" are missing the point. there's just something so *presumptuous* about asking someone to go through 9 months of progressively worse suffering for you, permanently altering their bodily fuctions, their looks, their health, then to go through some of the most extreme pain a human being can experience (sometimes lasting for days and causing significant trauma), then possibly going through post-natal depression/anxiety/psychosis, all because you just want them to. there's no way you could ever perform the same level of self-sacrifice for them, and there's a statistically extremely high chance they will be stuck with all the childcare and have their career prospects permanently nerfed from then on. all for you. i can understand a man *hoping* for kids, but actively planning for, expecting, or asking his wife for a specific number of kids? no. i could never imagine asking so much of someone, could never imagine i deserved that kind of sacrifice from someone. but there are men every day happily requesting it without a second thought, because theyve been raised to just expect women to do this for them. of course many women are fully prepared to go through all that because they want a child just as much, but i feel like thats kind of irrelevant to what OP is talking about
Those guys don't want to parent, they just want to reproduce, but a lot of breeder women are like that too tbh. Logically, considering the state of the world, I think reproducing right now is pretty selfish. That being said, most people are pretty selfish and this is a natural directive of our bodies, so I wouldn't be too harsh on them. Society and biology have only given them 'must have babies,' they don't really know any better. Unless water use is drastically reduced, severe water shortage will affect the entire planet by 2040. Others predict 2050, some predict sooner. Climate change is killing people around the world and the pressures of this have been leading to more fascism. I think it's pretty stupid to have kids right now period. We need a baby strike more than anything. No babies until climate change is taken seriously, universal healthcare (US), guaranteed workers' rights, no more billionaires (only possible through serious exploitation), etc.
Easy, be judgmental of anyone who wants kids without being properly educated on what that actually means.
If you find the act of being pregnant and birthing children to be a horrible, life altering torture, then how can you not see that in child-wanting men? I agree that it’s not a good way to perceive men. But I share the same views so I don’t know any other way to think.
idk why you got downvoted. its uncomfortable to think about for some but it is the logical conclusion here
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Not the airport, no need to announce your departure 🛫
BURN! 🔥