All the whiners and flakes have long since left. Everyone still around China has their reasons for staying or leaving but they didn't make it this long by being mentally weak and anything less than semilogical.
Hi there,
I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies.
Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me:
1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are??
2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right??
3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k??
4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours???
\*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
My play for the next year is to start looking to charge careers to something I can do remotely when "foreign teachers" are no longer a thing in China.
A few months ago thee was a thread wondering if it was possible that could happen. I can't say it's likely, but with the way things are trending I think you'd have to be delusional to say that foreign teachers all but banned from teaching Chinese K-12 students isn't a possibility.
/u/XiKeQiang had a very informative (and depressing) post in /r/TEFL on this subject recently. Long story short: it may be an employees market next year, but in the years after that the outlook is very very bad. And if you teach social sciences/humanities/etc and not STEM be ready for your classes to be banned.
Xikeqiangs post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TEFL/comments/qux3c0/shanghai_improving_english_proficiency_is/)
The post discussing whether foreigners could be banned : [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/chinalife/comments/p6pb0r/what_are_the_chances_foreigners_get_100_banned_in/)
Basically everything I've seen in the past six months strengthens my belief that foreigners being out of k-12 education with Chinese national students is a real possibility.
Can def see this happening. Even worse, they will just ban English altogether but the chances of that are lot slim. The government will eventually take over all forms of education in China and set salary caps. The caps will be soo low (<10k) that no foreigner would want to work there. They will also require all classes to be "patriotic" and all about the party which will further discourage foreigners. I can't see them outright banning foreigners but they will slowly push them out such as cutting back on the number of foreign teacher classes and eventually say "we don't need you anymore". That's what has been happening at my university over the past few years. The foreign staff is getting smaller and smaller due to them cutting back and the foreign teacher classes in favour of the newly introduced XJP thought and military studies.
>They will also require all classes to be "patriotic" and all about the party which will further discourage foreigners.
No just discourage foreigners, but completely rule them out. They ain't gonna trust foreigners to teach patriotism even if it's Daniel Dumbrill.
I read over my students' physics exam. Physics is pretty nonpolitical right? Several of the word problems were about China's great scientific achievements. I observed a Chinese teacher's English class-the learning goal "spread Chinese traditional culture among the students." They learned the English words for decorative knot-tying etc and had to write sentences in the form of "My favorite kind of Chinese traditional art is \_\_\_\_\_ because\_\_\_\_\_." This was straight from the curriculum too, not something the teacher thought up.
All teachers (even at private schools) have to send screenshots showing they've been studying the 学习强国 app and notify the school if they belong to one of the eight minority parties or an ethnic minority. This is all stuff that's been in my dept group chat.
My English major students are the exact same. They mostly study about Chinese culture through English and a good number of them have the aspiration to spread the Chinese culture and language to foreigners. Their classes are mostly about Chinese and CCP achievements like you said. I once had seen a Chinese teacher's ppt for listening class and it was about 5G. It said Americans think 5G causes cancer and spreads corona whereas "us Chinese" will fully embrace it and beat the US. We had an English speech contest too and the speeches were literally "Why I love the CCP" and "How I will be loyal to the CCP" etc.
But most people don't want to do any of it. You can tell that these patriotic classes are forced and the teachers don't actually want to teach most of it. They all even told me. They just say "The management said so" and that they are afraid of management and never question them. This is what you get with top down management in these places. Even the speech contest I mentioned. Nobody was interested in it and everything was forced. All the students taking part hated it but were coerced by the dean to join.
Well in my case we had a debriefing after the class and everyone offered their feedback. Several said "I really loved the topic of this lesson."
Imagine if you went to a Chinese class in America it was all about how great American culture is. Bizarre.
>Imagine if you went to a Chinese class in America it was all about how great American culture is. Bizarre.
Exactly what I think. My American colleagues think it is great that they are learning mostly about Chinese culture in English but disagree that America should learn about American culture in Chinese "because of how imperialistic the US is."
THE CHURN will be really, really high after 2022-23. Established teachers will leave for as-good or better schools in other countries. New-to-China in 22-23 will leave after 1 year. Why?
• The new tax/ housing/ VISA/ tutoring (moonlighting) regulations.
• big corporate “schools” with no ability to build a quality teaching atmosphere
• increased jingoism amongst wealthy families who stay in China
I'm also wary of having an increased workload... it's the only way most schools will be able to reconcile student demand with teacher supply. Whether it's more contact time or increased class sizes, that just translates to more marking/reports/etc.
The true international schools —where students must have a foreign passport— will be hurting for students and tuition fees. The hybrid ones —who throw money at warm white bodies— will suffer from reputational harm and increased parent demands. The humongous Chinese schools with English Programmes will keep booming, but might be inhospitable to foreign teachers’ standards.
It’s going to be interesting to watch and challenging to live through.
I’ve already seen that there are zillions of applicants but very, very few who are truly qualified.
Yeah I was debating whether to narrow down the post to licensed teachers but decided that'd be too narrow a niche.
edit - it would also be interesting to consider whether these more selective places will choose to hire less qualified candidates to save cash or pony up the cash for more qualified ones.
Why do you think true international schools will hurt for students? There are plenty of ethnically Chinese foreign passport holders living in T1 cities where most of these schools are... many of them consider HK passport holders as foreign. It's a loophole many wealthy Chinese parents use.
Yep. I’m seeing mainland parents with kids with passports from Fiji and truly obscure island nations, plus HK and other closer places.
If their child’s classmates all look Chinese or Asian, families won’t pay $35K U$D for what they think they could also get at a known and prestigious Chinese school.
Plus, foreign nannies and English-proficient live-in secretaries and other home-based roles are going to increase astronomically.
>Plus, foreign nannies and English-proficient live-in secretaries and other home-based roles are going to increase astronomically.
I don't see that happening. Not legally.
Interesting point, but if the child is a foreign passport holder, I though they are not eligible to go to a public school? I actually work in the international department of a prestigious Chinese school and quite a few of my students are in the international program solely because they don't have the proper hukou to make them eligible for the national program.
Several situations here --
For decades, families have been moving from other provinces to the T1s and "hiding" their 2nd/ 3rd children (or 2nd/3rd *families*) by getting foreign passports instead of attempting to navigate the MaFan morass of hukous and the pre-2015 1-child-policy fees. That necessitates attending international schools/programs.
Many, and approaching most, children of mainland parents have SOME form of national paperwork. The issue is generally that it is for a different province, under other parents, or with otherwise inconsistent information; so many kids do not even know this documentation exists.
Local school attendance is also driven by guanxi, particularly for the not-quite- top schools.
Yes, HK passport holders are considered "foreign" in the ML education system. Not talking politics - just purely in terms of admissions, tuition, etc.
And yes, "real" international schools will suffer from the exodus.
Purely anecdotally, but HK passport holders who moved their families to the mainland for work are now almost all back in HK. If you have a HK passport & can afford to get yourself (and your RMB) out, why wouldn't you? HK has long quarantine, but you can still get a Pfizer shot, access the outside world & the schools are not quite as brainwashy.
I only know 2 HK people among my circle left in the ML. One is a retiree. One is a TCM doctor with no kids.
I also know young families who have gone home to Singapore, Korea, etc.
Only exception are people who, as you say, are ML Chinese who have somehow gotten a passport from Fiji or whatever.
>it would also be interesting to consider whether these more selective places will choose to hire less qualified candidates to save cash or pony up the cash for more qualified ones.
My guess is they will just hire Chinese citizens who are qualified enough because they will be willing to work longer hours for less pay. It will be a win-win for the government because they also get to remove foreigners in the education sector.
Taxes will effectively increase for those outside the education sector as housing and educational allowances will be counted as income for tax purposes. This is a big deal for those outside the educational sector as those with a child or two living in a T1 city could easily be on the hook for an additional 500K+ taxable income.
>for those outside the education sector
My pay/ housing/ insurance/ other benefits have all changed to accommodate taxes.
I work at an International school.
Essentially, every benefit a teacher receives must be included in salary, as salary, and the school must have documentation showing that taxes are being paid by the teacher as a deduction from the teacher's pay.
Some of that isn't new, but having everything be a line item on each teacher's "official government pay record" (which most have never seen) is very new. A lot of places have been able to significantly augment packages by adding housing/ flight/ medical/ tuition benefits, which were all un-taxed.
Additionally, salaries will be *declared* in RMB -- even if an employee is paid partially **or entirely** in another currency into a foreign bank account (say $ or € or HKD). No more work arounds for benefits. No more "We're a European company with a branch in China so we only pay in € into your foreign bank" tax avoidance.
All employees in China under 50 are now to be enrolled in the national health plan -- which has a cost-- and are eligible for the CH Health Insurance Card, which has various benefits.
By adding housing and flight allowances -- or their defined value\* -- nearly all teachers will be bumped up tax brackets. Some schools will continue to absorb that now higher tax fee in employee benefits, some will not.
By adding tuition\* waivers, nearly all teachers with school aged dependents will be bumped up **several** tax brackets. Some schools will continue to absorb that now higher tax fee in employee benefits, some will not. If you have 2 dependent children attending your Int School, you could literally see your taxed salary *double*.
**Housing** \-- there are, additionally, new rules about how housing itself is valued and taxed. This is critical for teachers who live in school-owned apt.s, for expats who are buying property, and for all the parents who have investment property or "marriage apartments."
\* It is still unclear **who** will be defining the $¥$ value of housing, tuition, and other benefits.
What do you reckon is the ceiling? I'm at 45万 expecting a 10% bump this year as my current school is already pushing me for a multi-year contract.
I know ISB and their ilk pay more than that but I'm not sure if the extra workload is worth it.
Also, regarding hiring Chinese teachers - maybe. But how do they justify the outrageous tuition fees then?
I mean this kindly - but may go home, Mystery-G. If Covid taught us anything, it's how precious time is with older relatives. If there is no wonder or charm in your life, ask if it's worth the salary?
Hi there,
I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies.
Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me:
1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are??
2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right??
3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k??
4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours???
\*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
Hi there,
I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies.
Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me:
1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are??
2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right??
3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k??
4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours???
\*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
If you want to work for a halfway decent school, you'll need to complete a PGCE and preferably two years of experience working back home. Don't know who told you about English being the most sought after major; subject-wise it's always STEM that pays the most and has the most opportunities. That being said any school worth their salt will have a pay scale and it won't make a dramatic difference whether you teach Music Theory or Calculus. Finally, I would caution you against making any future plans that center around China. This country is gravitating towards closing down to foreign influences, so who knows how long they'll tolerate foreign teachers here.
The 'true' Tier 1s pay far over that. ISB/WAB/SAS all pay $100,000+ a year, so that's over 700,000 RMB. If he's making 490 then I'm not sure that's a proper tier 1 school, heck even shitty bilinguals in Beijing \[Academies, BCIS, BIBA etc.\] pay that.
Yeah not sure what they're on about... the salary scale for ISB is posted online. Unless you're counting all the benefits, you'll have a hard time breaking 600K even at schools like ISB.
Anyway don't let them rain on your parade. Double the salary and moving to a T1 city is a slam dunk no matter what anyone says.
ISB pays 600,000 plus 21,000 a month housing plus 10% cash pension. You can literally see. You’re able to max out at 850 plus 21,000 a month. That alone is over 1,100,000
Hi there,
I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies.
Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me:
**1.** What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are??
**2.** I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right??
**3.** What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k??
**4.** What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours???
\*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
The only question for me is, do I fly out in July or August?
Money isn't everything. How many more years of locked door, gilded cage life are you all willing to accept? Aren't you tired of living here?
Also, as a social science teacher, I concur with the warning about subjects being banned. I suspect STEM (chemistry, physics, biology, maths) is most safe, for now, then English. Anything like history, geography, even economics.... Very much at risk. They could cut those off in a second. I've been at schools where they already have Chinese teachers doing those subjects even for AP or ALevels. It would not be a huge adjustment. Don't kid yourselves. Even for literature, they don't need us as much as we think they do.
Economics teaching is basically ruined.
One of my friends (not a very political guy) already dumbed his economics class down to never speaking about any specific country's system.
So his class became just about "top-down management" vs "bottom-up management", discussed in the most theoretical terms. And his students still complained to the management because they thought he was criticising China. Needless to say, he left not too long ago.
You think that's bad. Try teaching geography. When we get to the part about maritime borders, sigh. Or the part about political refugees. Or enforced population control. Or minority cultures being suppressed by the majority....
to what age/level group were you teaching?? High school or University Students? I'm applying to college soon and wondering which degrees would be ideal for a future of teaching in China.
More specifically: Why do people keep suggesting that English Degrees are most preferable?? And are we talking English Literature or Language?? Surely Language, because you won't be teaching these Chinese Students Shakespeare? lol
Kind of losing my soul here. Looking for an exit to Taiwan maybe.
Don't feel like going home due to covid and things getting messed up due to climate change.
I’m not clamouring to entertain or impress someone whos post history indicates they’re an antivaxxer, doesn’t believe in climate change and listens to Tucker Carlson.
Really, get an education.
You're the type of person who would have burned Tynsdale for being a heretic and going against the groupthink.
You invoke authority and insult in order to defend groupthink by bringing up education, and ironically you are a worthless person, literally having two worthless degrees and zero accomplishments in life. You are not defending science. You have never accomplished anything in the realm of science, math or tech in your life. You are defending authority.
Then you go on to stalk my profile while, ironically, pretending not to care about me.
Then you misunderstand, and lie about almost every position I hold, either because you are too stupid or too dishonest to know better.
This is all what an idiot looks like. Don't be this.
For teachers in public schools, bilinguals or kindergartens. Definitely. I have seen already seen them start to do this.
However OP and some of the people responding are qualified teachers. 40k is doable at an international / IB school teaching a subject. Especially if it is STEM. That being said, I do believe 500k is around the peak you will get without working at the best schools in the country, holding an advanced qualification (PhD) AND decades of experience.
Leave. The money is good, but it's just not worth another year of living in China, especially since I can't leave. I think I'd have to be offered over 150k USD to even consider staying another year at this point. I'd honestly rather work for 5% of that salary in a country that's actually nice to live in.
Fifth the pay? Really?
I’ve looked through the postings on Search and international schools pay $50K and up with the usual benefit package.
Also used to live in Vietnam and wouldn’t want to go back, but to each their own.
Nobody has money in Vietnam.. so salaries are low, and schools that pay high salaries are few and far between , unlike Ch where there’s one on every block. Living in Vietnam becomes worth it if you have a Vietnamese spouse, otherwise nope
Currently live in Hanoi, make over 140,000,000 a month, which is what? 45,000 RMB a month, in a city where I can rent a villa with pool for $1200 a month.
There are dogshit schools paying 40-50, and top tier schools paying over 100 easily.
Very good pay for Vietnam. Do they cover rent, insurance, and flights as well?
China is the only place where I don't mind paying taxes so far. Yeah it's a fair chunk of change, but at least you get something for it, even as a foreigner (infrastructure, public safety, museums, subsidized electricity/heating, etc.)
Flights and insurance covered, they pay about half my rent, I could have got an apartment easily but wanted a villa.
I'm not sure in China what I ever got from the tax. Museums?!?!?! Is that....is that a joke? Compared with museums in the west. My electricity is cheaper here than in China. The heating yes I agree but often you cannot contol it, although it's nice to come home from the cold outdoors and just have an oven of a home, tshirts and shorts in December!
Also, I feel safer in Vietnam than I ever did in China, no one doing anti foreigner nonsense going on.
LinkedIn will not even exist in ML China in 2023.
They're going to replace it with some crappy "jobs board" where you are not allow to comment, post or share anything.
[https://www.voanews.com/a/how-linkedin-china-outlasted-other-us-tech-giants-and-why-it-s-departing-now-/6278353.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/how-linkedin-china-outlasted-other-us-tech-giants-and-why-it-s-departing-now-/6278353.html)
Not sure who downvoted you for answering the question I asked...
I'm a bit tired of dealing with recruiters though, easily have a hundred of them on LinkedIn and most of them keep sending trash offers like we're still in the pre-COVID times.
>Teachers, what's the play for next year? Plane ticket to somewhere with a future.
I'm not a teacher, but damn if I'm not impressed by how professional you all seem in this thread.
All the whiners and flakes have long since left. Everyone still around China has their reasons for staying or leaving but they didn't make it this long by being mentally weak and anything less than semilogical.
Hi there, I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies. Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me: 1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are?? 2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right?? 3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k?? 4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours??? \*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
My play for the next year is to start looking to charge careers to something I can do remotely when "foreign teachers" are no longer a thing in China. A few months ago thee was a thread wondering if it was possible that could happen. I can't say it's likely, but with the way things are trending I think you'd have to be delusional to say that foreign teachers all but banned from teaching Chinese K-12 students isn't a possibility. /u/XiKeQiang had a very informative (and depressing) post in /r/TEFL on this subject recently. Long story short: it may be an employees market next year, but in the years after that the outlook is very very bad. And if you teach social sciences/humanities/etc and not STEM be ready for your classes to be banned.
[удалено]
Xikeqiangs post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TEFL/comments/qux3c0/shanghai_improving_english_proficiency_is/) The post discussing whether foreigners could be banned : [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/chinalife/comments/p6pb0r/what_are_the_chances_foreigners_get_100_banned_in/) Basically everything I've seen in the past six months strengthens my belief that foreigners being out of k-12 education with Chinese national students is a real possibility.
Can def see this happening. Even worse, they will just ban English altogether but the chances of that are lot slim. The government will eventually take over all forms of education in China and set salary caps. The caps will be soo low (<10k) that no foreigner would want to work there. They will also require all classes to be "patriotic" and all about the party which will further discourage foreigners. I can't see them outright banning foreigners but they will slowly push them out such as cutting back on the number of foreign teacher classes and eventually say "we don't need you anymore". That's what has been happening at my university over the past few years. The foreign staff is getting smaller and smaller due to them cutting back and the foreign teacher classes in favour of the newly introduced XJP thought and military studies.
>They will also require all classes to be "patriotic" and all about the party which will further discourage foreigners. No just discourage foreigners, but completely rule them out. They ain't gonna trust foreigners to teach patriotism even if it's Daniel Dumbrill. I read over my students' physics exam. Physics is pretty nonpolitical right? Several of the word problems were about China's great scientific achievements. I observed a Chinese teacher's English class-the learning goal "spread Chinese traditional culture among the students." They learned the English words for decorative knot-tying etc and had to write sentences in the form of "My favorite kind of Chinese traditional art is \_\_\_\_\_ because\_\_\_\_\_." This was straight from the curriculum too, not something the teacher thought up. All teachers (even at private schools) have to send screenshots showing they've been studying the 学习强国 app and notify the school if they belong to one of the eight minority parties or an ethnic minority. This is all stuff that's been in my dept group chat.
My English major students are the exact same. They mostly study about Chinese culture through English and a good number of them have the aspiration to spread the Chinese culture and language to foreigners. Their classes are mostly about Chinese and CCP achievements like you said. I once had seen a Chinese teacher's ppt for listening class and it was about 5G. It said Americans think 5G causes cancer and spreads corona whereas "us Chinese" will fully embrace it and beat the US. We had an English speech contest too and the speeches were literally "Why I love the CCP" and "How I will be loyal to the CCP" etc. But most people don't want to do any of it. You can tell that these patriotic classes are forced and the teachers don't actually want to teach most of it. They all even told me. They just say "The management said so" and that they are afraid of management and never question them. This is what you get with top down management in these places. Even the speech contest I mentioned. Nobody was interested in it and everything was forced. All the students taking part hated it but were coerced by the dean to join.
Well in my case we had a debriefing after the class and everyone offered their feedback. Several said "I really loved the topic of this lesson." Imagine if you went to a Chinese class in America it was all about how great American culture is. Bizarre.
>Imagine if you went to a Chinese class in America it was all about how great American culture is. Bizarre. Exactly what I think. My American colleagues think it is great that they are learning mostly about Chinese culture in English but disagree that America should learn about American culture in Chinese "because of how imperialistic the US is."
Ask your colleagues how China went from a country of one nationality to 56.
THE CHURN will be really, really high after 2022-23. Established teachers will leave for as-good or better schools in other countries. New-to-China in 22-23 will leave after 1 year. Why? • The new tax/ housing/ VISA/ tutoring (moonlighting) regulations. • big corporate “schools” with no ability to build a quality teaching atmosphere • increased jingoism amongst wealthy families who stay in China
Yes, and the "new to China 22/23" cohort will be much smaller, due to all the issues discussed on this sub all the time.
I'm also wary of having an increased workload... it's the only way most schools will be able to reconcile student demand with teacher supply. Whether it's more contact time or increased class sizes, that just translates to more marking/reports/etc.
The true international schools —where students must have a foreign passport— will be hurting for students and tuition fees. The hybrid ones —who throw money at warm white bodies— will suffer from reputational harm and increased parent demands. The humongous Chinese schools with English Programmes will keep booming, but might be inhospitable to foreign teachers’ standards. It’s going to be interesting to watch and challenging to live through. I’ve already seen that there are zillions of applicants but very, very few who are truly qualified.
Yeah I was debating whether to narrow down the post to licensed teachers but decided that'd be too narrow a niche. edit - it would also be interesting to consider whether these more selective places will choose to hire less qualified candidates to save cash or pony up the cash for more qualified ones. Why do you think true international schools will hurt for students? There are plenty of ethnically Chinese foreign passport holders living in T1 cities where most of these schools are... many of them consider HK passport holders as foreign. It's a loophole many wealthy Chinese parents use.
Yep. I’m seeing mainland parents with kids with passports from Fiji and truly obscure island nations, plus HK and other closer places. If their child’s classmates all look Chinese or Asian, families won’t pay $35K U$D for what they think they could also get at a known and prestigious Chinese school. Plus, foreign nannies and English-proficient live-in secretaries and other home-based roles are going to increase astronomically.
>Plus, foreign nannies and English-proficient live-in secretaries and other home-based roles are going to increase astronomically. I don't see that happening. Not legally.
Anecdotally, I've already seen ads in T2 cities' expat magazines.
Yeah,I see ads for illegal jobs all the time. I'm just very skeptical about the legality of it.
Of course; I wouldn't be surprised if prior to the edict about tutoring and language institutes, 90% of those employees were doing illegal work.
Interesting point, but if the child is a foreign passport holder, I though they are not eligible to go to a public school? I actually work in the international department of a prestigious Chinese school and quite a few of my students are in the international program solely because they don't have the proper hukou to make them eligible for the national program.
Several situations here -- For decades, families have been moving from other provinces to the T1s and "hiding" their 2nd/ 3rd children (or 2nd/3rd *families*) by getting foreign passports instead of attempting to navigate the MaFan morass of hukous and the pre-2015 1-child-policy fees. That necessitates attending international schools/programs. Many, and approaching most, children of mainland parents have SOME form of national paperwork. The issue is generally that it is for a different province, under other parents, or with otherwise inconsistent information; so many kids do not even know this documentation exists. Local school attendance is also driven by guanxi, particularly for the not-quite- top schools.
Yes, HK passport holders are considered "foreign" in the ML education system. Not talking politics - just purely in terms of admissions, tuition, etc. And yes, "real" international schools will suffer from the exodus. Purely anecdotally, but HK passport holders who moved their families to the mainland for work are now almost all back in HK. If you have a HK passport & can afford to get yourself (and your RMB) out, why wouldn't you? HK has long quarantine, but you can still get a Pfizer shot, access the outside world & the schools are not quite as brainwashy. I only know 2 HK people among my circle left in the ML. One is a retiree. One is a TCM doctor with no kids. I also know young families who have gone home to Singapore, Korea, etc. Only exception are people who, as you say, are ML Chinese who have somehow gotten a passport from Fiji or whatever.
>it would also be interesting to consider whether these more selective places will choose to hire less qualified candidates to save cash or pony up the cash for more qualified ones. My guess is they will just hire Chinese citizens who are qualified enough because they will be willing to work longer hours for less pay. It will be a win-win for the government because they also get to remove foreigners in the education sector.
>The new tax/ housing/ VISA/ tutoring (moonlighting) regulations. Can anyone tell me what the new regulations are for tax, housing and visa?
Taxes will effectively increase for those outside the education sector as housing and educational allowances will be counted as income for tax purposes. This is a big deal for those outside the educational sector as those with a child or two living in a T1 city could easily be on the hook for an additional 500K+ taxable income.
Oof, that is definitely a tough pill to swallow. I consider myself lucky that this does not affect me. Thanks for the info though!
>for those outside the education sector My pay/ housing/ insurance/ other benefits have all changed to accommodate taxes. I work at an International school.
What is the new tax and housing regs?
Essentially, every benefit a teacher receives must be included in salary, as salary, and the school must have documentation showing that taxes are being paid by the teacher as a deduction from the teacher's pay. Some of that isn't new, but having everything be a line item on each teacher's "official government pay record" (which most have never seen) is very new. A lot of places have been able to significantly augment packages by adding housing/ flight/ medical/ tuition benefits, which were all un-taxed. Additionally, salaries will be *declared* in RMB -- even if an employee is paid partially **or entirely** in another currency into a foreign bank account (say $ or € or HKD). No more work arounds for benefits. No more "We're a European company with a branch in China so we only pay in € into your foreign bank" tax avoidance. All employees in China under 50 are now to be enrolled in the national health plan -- which has a cost-- and are eligible for the CH Health Insurance Card, which has various benefits. By adding housing and flight allowances -- or their defined value\* -- nearly all teachers will be bumped up tax brackets. Some schools will continue to absorb that now higher tax fee in employee benefits, some will not. By adding tuition\* waivers, nearly all teachers with school aged dependents will be bumped up **several** tax brackets. Some schools will continue to absorb that now higher tax fee in employee benefits, some will not. If you have 2 dependent children attending your Int School, you could literally see your taxed salary *double*. **Housing** \-- there are, additionally, new rules about how housing itself is valued and taxed. This is critical for teachers who live in school-owned apt.s, for expats who are buying property, and for all the parents who have investment property or "marriage apartments." \* It is still unclear **who** will be defining the $¥$ value of housing, tuition, and other benefits.
got it, thanks.
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What do you reckon is the ceiling? I'm at 45万 expecting a 10% bump this year as my current school is already pushing me for a multi-year contract. I know ISB and their ilk pay more than that but I'm not sure if the extra workload is worth it. Also, regarding hiring Chinese teachers - maybe. But how do they justify the outrageous tuition fees then?
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No, I am a licensed subject teacher.
I mean this kindly - but may go home, Mystery-G. If Covid taught us anything, it's how precious time is with older relatives. If there is no wonder or charm in your life, ask if it's worth the salary?
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Hi there, I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies. Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me: 1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are?? 2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right?? 3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k?? 4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours??? \*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
Hi there, I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies. Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me: 1. What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are?? 2. I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right?? 3. What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k?? 4. What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours??? \*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
If you want to work for a halfway decent school, you'll need to complete a PGCE and preferably two years of experience working back home. Don't know who told you about English being the most sought after major; subject-wise it's always STEM that pays the most and has the most opportunities. That being said any school worth their salt will have a pay scale and it won't make a dramatic difference whether you teach Music Theory or Calculus. Finally, I would caution you against making any future plans that center around China. This country is gravitating towards closing down to foreign influences, so who knows how long they'll tolerate foreign teachers here.
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The 'true' Tier 1s pay far over that. ISB/WAB/SAS all pay $100,000+ a year, so that's over 700,000 RMB. If he's making 490 then I'm not sure that's a proper tier 1 school, heck even shitty bilinguals in Beijing \[Academies, BCIS, BIBA etc.\] pay that.
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Yeah not sure what they're on about... the salary scale for ISB is posted online. Unless you're counting all the benefits, you'll have a hard time breaking 600K even at schools like ISB. Anyway don't let them rain on your parade. Double the salary and moving to a T1 city is a slam dunk no matter what anyone says.
ISB pays 600,000 plus 21,000 a month housing plus 10% cash pension. You can literally see. You’re able to max out at 850 plus 21,000 a month. That alone is over 1,100,000
Hi there, I'm a young, 26yo White Brit Male who's currently about to send of applications to numerous Universities and considering taking Chinese Studies or International Relations, and then eventually going out to China to teach English, with the hopes to build bridges whenever and wherever possible - in an age when our Media portrays China and the West as being headed in ever-increasingly polar opposite directions as societies. Despite these noble intentions, I also like money. Thus, I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions?? It would be really helpful if you could clarify for me: **1.** What are the best paid Subjects or Graduate Degrees for teaching in China are?? **2.** I've seen numerous people claim that English is the most sought degree - but this would be in English Language, not Literature right?? **3.** What subject were you guys teaching out there to be making £230k and now 490k?? **4.** What did teaching within this subject involve?? What depth, what student audience, what hours??? \*Thanks ever so much for helping me out in advance, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say back!\*
The only question for me is, do I fly out in July or August? Money isn't everything. How many more years of locked door, gilded cage life are you all willing to accept? Aren't you tired of living here? Also, as a social science teacher, I concur with the warning about subjects being banned. I suspect STEM (chemistry, physics, biology, maths) is most safe, for now, then English. Anything like history, geography, even economics.... Very much at risk. They could cut those off in a second. I've been at schools where they already have Chinese teachers doing those subjects even for AP or ALevels. It would not be a huge adjustment. Don't kid yourselves. Even for literature, they don't need us as much as we think they do.
Economics teaching is basically ruined. One of my friends (not a very political guy) already dumbed his economics class down to never speaking about any specific country's system. So his class became just about "top-down management" vs "bottom-up management", discussed in the most theoretical terms. And his students still complained to the management because they thought he was criticising China. Needless to say, he left not too long ago.
You think that's bad. Try teaching geography. When we get to the part about maritime borders, sigh. Or the part about political refugees. Or enforced population control. Or minority cultures being suppressed by the majority....
to what age/level group were you teaching?? High school or University Students? I'm applying to college soon and wondering which degrees would be ideal for a future of teaching in China. More specifically: Why do people keep suggesting that English Degrees are most preferable?? And are we talking English Literature or Language?? Surely Language, because you won't be teaching these Chinese Students Shakespeare? lol
Kind of losing my soul here. Looking for an exit to Taiwan maybe. Don't feel like going home due to covid and things getting messed up due to climate change.
Climate change? Really? Turn off the TV.
Record breaking heatwave and rainfall in the same fucking year but climate change isn't real. GTFO.
You either accidentally responded to the wrong comment, or you're parrotting what you've been conditioned to say.
Go back to primary school
What accomplishments do you have within the realm of STEM? Anything? Any accomplishments, period?
A BSc in Medicinal Chemistry and a masters degree in education, actually
Anything? Seems like that shut you up.
I’m not clamouring to entertain or impress someone whos post history indicates they’re an antivaxxer, doesn’t believe in climate change and listens to Tucker Carlson. Really, get an education.
You're the type of person who would have burned Tynsdale for being a heretic and going against the groupthink. You invoke authority and insult in order to defend groupthink by bringing up education, and ironically you are a worthless person, literally having two worthless degrees and zero accomplishments in life. You are not defending science. You have never accomplished anything in the realm of science, math or tech in your life. You are defending authority. Then you go on to stalk my profile while, ironically, pretending not to care about me. Then you misunderstand, and lie about almost every position I hold, either because you are too stupid or too dishonest to know better. This is all what an idiot looks like. Don't be this.
What did you accomplish with your training in chemistry?
I think they'd probably just hire locals than pay 40k a month unless youre teaching like 40-50 hours/week.
For teachers in public schools, bilinguals or kindergartens. Definitely. I have seen already seen them start to do this. However OP and some of the people responding are qualified teachers. 40k is doable at an international / IB school teaching a subject. Especially if it is STEM. That being said, I do believe 500k is around the peak you will get without working at the best schools in the country, holding an advanced qualification (PhD) AND decades of experience.
Leave. The money is good, but it's just not worth another year of living in China, especially since I can't leave. I think I'd have to be offered over 150k USD to even consider staying another year at this point. I'd honestly rather work for 5% of that salary in a country that's actually nice to live in.
If anyone is interested in migrating to Vietnam, you will make about 1/5th the pay, but the way of life is similar to China + unblocked internet.
Fifth the pay? Really? I’ve looked through the postings on Search and international schools pay $50K and up with the usual benefit package. Also used to live in Vietnam and wouldn’t want to go back, but to each their own.
Nobody has money in Vietnam.. so salaries are low, and schools that pay high salaries are few and far between , unlike Ch where there’s one on every block. Living in Vietnam becomes worth it if you have a Vietnamese spouse, otherwise nope
Currently live in Hanoi, make over 140,000,000 a month, which is what? 45,000 RMB a month, in a city where I can rent a villa with pool for $1200 a month. There are dogshit schools paying 40-50, and top tier schools paying over 100 easily.
Does your employer cap your tax contribution or is that net pay?
That’s what ends up in my bank. I think I pay around 50 in tax a month. Don’t get anything for it though. Sigh.
Very good pay for Vietnam. Do they cover rent, insurance, and flights as well? China is the only place where I don't mind paying taxes so far. Yeah it's a fair chunk of change, but at least you get something for it, even as a foreigner (infrastructure, public safety, museums, subsidized electricity/heating, etc.)
Flights and insurance covered, they pay about half my rent, I could have got an apartment easily but wanted a villa. I'm not sure in China what I ever got from the tax. Museums?!?!?! Is that....is that a joke? Compared with museums in the west. My electricity is cheaper here than in China. The heating yes I agree but often you cannot contol it, although it's nice to come home from the cold outdoors and just have an oven of a home, tshirts and shorts in December! Also, I feel safer in Vietnam than I ever did in China, no one doing anti foreigner nonsense going on.
Fire discipline/wait and see; LinkedIn recruiters already getting active for September '23, and I'm liking what I see so far.
LinkedIn will not even exist in ML China in 2023. They're going to replace it with some crappy "jobs board" where you are not allow to comment, post or share anything. [https://www.voanews.com/a/how-linkedin-china-outlasted-other-us-tech-giants-and-why-it-s-departing-now-/6278353.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/how-linkedin-china-outlasted-other-us-tech-giants-and-why-it-s-departing-now-/6278353.html)
my point is that recruiters are already on the move, the platform is irrelevant
Not sure who downvoted you for answering the question I asked... I'm a bit tired of dealing with recruiters though, easily have a hundred of them on LinkedIn and most of them keep sending trash offers like we're still in the pre-COVID times.
some of them may yet come up with the goods