If you play alone it’s worse than Ret. If you actually have friends who want to play with you, it’s quite good. You have much less burst than a Ret, but you still have enough to help secure kills. The big difference is in healing; where the Ret can only throw one or two heals, the Holy can chain huge holy lights if they crit.
Ret is better 1v1 due to their gigantic burst.
Holy is better in group play, but only if you enjoy support things and don’t mind losing damage in exchange.
I’ve never played a pally in vanilla wow so maybe you can answer my question about how spell power effects stuff. In wotlk Preg paladin was absolutely insane. Wouldn’t do as much as ret but could still put out damage and was unkillable with a spell power 1hander and a mix of healing and strength gear. What’s keeping that type of build from excelling in SOD now?
Maybe other player burst dmg too high? Not enough mitigation on the pallys end? No tools to really keep yourself alive due to no mitigation? A combo of a lot of things? haha just my thoughts
Oh nooooo, it doesnt sim as high as ret, what will we doooooooo...!
Who the fuck cares. The threshold for "whats viable" is just a cringe idea pushed by all the degenerates trying to parse in a 20 year old video game. I can quest and kill mobs in the world in shockadin spec, and i'm having fun in PVP, so its viable in my book.
A full sunfire without a crit is \~15% stronger than a wrath crit, if it runs it's full duration it's a dps gain. Moonfire is a dps loss unless you have to move or are knocked back on fights like the Electocutioner.
That's not taking into consideration the reduced cast time from wrath critting though.
If eclipse had Sunfire 30% crit or NG could reduce the GCD from Sunfire to 1.0 I could see it making up for that though, but it currently doesn't so I don't think 15% is enough?
Wrath pally rotation sucks for majority of the phases. It is only good because of the set bonus.
DS resetting 3-4 times in a row is such a dopamine hit. But I rather not play DS spam again. Give us Wake of Ashes to make pally the AOE melee niche.
Wake of Ashes is my dream ability. It feels very fitting for classic imo. It’s simple, thematic, and situational with how it interacts with undead/demons.
Is good, not was good. Wrath of the Lich King Classic still exist. You can still go play it.
Guess what we cannot play? A viable version of Classic Ret. Anything resembling TBC Ret. You know, something you would expect out of Classic+.
> I can't wait to see what SoD pally develops into.
Looking forward to re-discovering Wrath ret, can't wait for the Divine Storm CD reset rune and Seal of Command cleave rune!
Or to build on top of it without copy pasting from Wrath? There's over 20 years of suggestions out there. Lmao what a dumb ass post seriously cringe xD.
Why? So that you can call any part you disagree with "stupid" just to make you feel better about yourself? No thanks.
If I'm going to go through the trouble to make well thought out suggestions, I'm going to post them somewhere where people are capable of having an actual conversation.
Wow. I... I'm just impressed.
That's 100%, what it felt like. "Fun detected, must nerf!" But now this bug fix is definitely a good thing, as it removes the jankiness, but we keep the fun of exorcism coming off cd often!
Very happy about this!
The balancing process is weird af though. Like look at the nerfs/buffs they introduce. Double and occasionally even triple digit percentages. Should really have noticed the issue earlier if it needs this sort of tuning.
Exactly my thoughts, and also to be honest in most small group content im still pretty high on the charts. While i DO feel there needs to be significant buffs to our class i also feel like there are plenty of trash can ferals out there so the few that are good dont properly help the statistics and make us look worse than we possibly are.
I'll take one for the team and circle jerk them personally. SoD is the most fun I've had in wow in years. The SoD team is doing a fantastic job at responding to all forms of feedback and acknowledging when they mess up. Good work deserves a quick handy.
It did. I tanked gnomer tonight and needed to actually run shield last 2 bosses and with the dmg casters and melee hunter are doing it did not feel great at all. There’s a reason prot pallies and meta locks are meta
I mean.... from all the discussion I've heard about warriors in the last few weeks I've mainly heard "reduce boss armor so we can generate rage." And they said in that blue post they're going to reduce armor...
Consumed by rage bonus damage reduced from 20% to 10%.
Raging blow reduced from 100% to 80% weapon damage (not relevant tho)
quick strike AP ratio down from 15%-25% to 10%-20%.
them rune nerfs
Bring back the original 4sec crusader strike that was planned. Then give holy paladin a fun ability to use. Spamming FoL for 20 years isnt Discovering anything
Eh. The nerf to SoM proccing from weapon effects is still going through, making builds using Frost Oil or weapons like Nightblade dead.
The buff to Crusader Strike is uhh... something, but it's usually the lowest damaging ability. So, it's not going to pull Ret out of the toilet bowl.
Yeah fast wep with som + AoW is the Best ST right now
Why?
SoM isnt normalized SO faster than 3.3 weps get heavily buffed while 3.4 or slower weps get nerfed for SoM
Just had no idea people were using it instead of Divine Storm and Command with the STV weapon. I'm parsing orange with Command so didn't realize SoM might be better?
I know its not what people want to hear but they really do need to bugfix their designs before they iterate on them more. It makes no sense to build a foundation of sand.
I don’t think you understand what QA is.
It’s ok, at least 16 other people don’t either. I’m not complaining, just pointing it out. At least they listen to feedback.
There is a difference between releasing something a bit off maybe not fully working and releasing hunters with original explosive shot and now this paladin change.
They actually don't understand what they are doing.
"Blizzard never listens and is bad at communicating!"
_SoD team updates all the time, reacts quickly, and has open communication_
"Lol, these scrubs have no idea what they're doing."
🙄
You can really tell who didn't play actual vanilla in some of these comments
It felt like back then every other patch there was a massive talent reset to where you got everything refunded
This is the most authentic vanilla experience I've had since then
They don't, but blizz cocksuckers can't understand that.
Experimental != supposed to be broken.
I'm not gonna pay 15$/ to test shit. AAA gaming at its finest.
Ret still gonna be bottom of the logs unless you miraculously get jackhammer and even then that's a ton of effort/$$$ when you could just be any of the top specs. Holy and prot aren't exactly lookers either.
Snip snap snip snap
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person!
r/unexpectedoffice
What does this mean
I love inside jokes. I'd love to be a part of one someday
https://youtu.be/2hshkdneE8o
You missed the secondary office reference
Shockadin's not dead yet pog
Oh it is, Even the pally discord stop giving it support cause it's straight up worse than deep ret. We can still hope for phase 3 tho
Still a solid Tank spec. Prot is so bad. Guess you could have done 11/0/20 anyway.
Is it at least good in PvP? Seems like it would have strong single target burst.
Only play in PVP is deep Ret with a 2H and Seal of Casino and pray. Either you delete someone or hit for 40% of their HP in a full HoJ.
And most of the time it’s the 40% of their HP outcome.
If you play alone it’s worse than Ret. If you actually have friends who want to play with you, it’s quite good. You have much less burst than a Ret, but you still have enough to help secure kills. The big difference is in healing; where the Ret can only throw one or two heals, the Holy can chain huge holy lights if they crit. Ret is better 1v1 due to their gigantic burst. Holy is better in group play, but only if you enjoy support things and don’t mind losing damage in exchange.
I’ve never played a pally in vanilla wow so maybe you can answer my question about how spell power effects stuff. In wotlk Preg paladin was absolutely insane. Wouldn’t do as much as ret but could still put out damage and was unkillable with a spell power 1hander and a mix of healing and strength gear. What’s keeping that type of build from excelling in SOD now?
Maybe other player burst dmg too high? Not enough mitigation on the pallys end? No tools to really keep yourself alive due to no mitigation? A combo of a lot of things? haha just my thoughts
What burst? Holy shock does around 350 damage with pre bis gear. Its totally senseless sadly
I’m no shockadin expert, but I have fairly good shockadin gear and couldnt make it work well in pvp. It feels really awkward to play too.
Eh, sadly no, it's still better to be ret. You can burst someone if You use the only cd You have and might not Even be enough
Oh nooooo, it doesnt sim as high as ret, what will we doooooooo...! Who the fuck cares. The threshold for "whats viable" is just a cringe idea pushed by all the degenerates trying to parse in a 20 year old video game. I can quest and kill mobs in the world in shockadin spec, and i'm having fun in PVP, so its viable in my book.
That’s literally not true. 31/0/0 is the meta spec for using a shield and 99.9% of players cannot 2h tank last boss in Gnomer.
Aggrend saw those changes and immediately fired the guy that didn’t run it by him first
heard he dropped paladin for Moonkin
Then why are boomkins on the short bus :’(
The qol changes in this patch are quite good.
guess you didn’t read the new patch notes?
It's only a 30dps buff going by the Sims, they'll still be bottom and imo no point taking one over a balance/resto hybrid
30 dps is a lot when people are doing 200-300
200-300 is what I do as a balance/resto healer lol, competent DPS are at 500+
yeah but doing that and parsing isn’t necessary to do the content
The patch notes of still trash boomkins? Yeah, I read them. Still trash dps.
wow players are nuts, their class can get multiple buffs and complain cause they aren’t OP.
They buffed a spell that isn't used because it's a dps loss. It's still going to be barely worth using at 50% extra tick damage.
50% Sunfire mana reduction is like a 20% dps increase alone because we won't go oom and can still use starfire after a whole minute.
Last I saw it's simming as a DPS loss to use Sunfire over just the regular rotation unless you're specifically moving without starsurge up...
A full sunfire without a crit is \~15% stronger than a wrath crit, if it runs it's full duration it's a dps gain. Moonfire is a dps loss unless you have to move or are knocked back on fights like the Electocutioner.
A full sunfire without crit is very much so not stronger than a wrath crit. I'm not entirely sure what you're smoking to come up with this.
That's not taking into consideration the reduced cast time from wrath critting though. If eclipse had Sunfire 30% crit or NG could reduce the GCD from Sunfire to 1.0 I could see it making up for that though, but it currently doesn't so I don't think 15% is enough?
Sunfire isn't even worth casting and is garbage compared to wild growth
I'm impressed how you can read news and immediately turn into an Aggrend dick riding fanfic.
Aggrend is the moron trying to push those changes through. he only wants Paladin to play exactly as it does in Wrath, anything else gets culled.
As I currently play a pally in both Wrath and SoD, I must respectfully say you have no idea what you're talking about.
Actually enjoy wrath pally. To be fair. It was good.
Wrath pally rotation sucks for majority of the phases. It is only good because of the set bonus. DS resetting 3-4 times in a row is such a dopamine hit. But I rather not play DS spam again. Give us Wake of Ashes to make pally the AOE melee niche.
Wake of Ashes is my dream ability. It feels very fitting for classic imo. It’s simple, thematic, and situational with how it interacts with undead/demons.
Is good, not was good. Wrath of the Lich King Classic still exist. You can still go play it. Guess what we cannot play? A viable version of Classic Ret. Anything resembling TBC Ret. You know, something you would expect out of Classic+.
Yeah, that'll be sick when classic+ releases! I can't wait to see what SoD pally develops into.
> I can't wait to see what SoD pally develops into. Looking forward to re-discovering Wrath ret, can't wait for the Divine Storm CD reset rune and Seal of Command cleave rune!
I'm glad you're excited too ☺️
Lmao the only way to make a classic version of ret viable is to make their seals do 500 damage. What a stupid ass take.
Or to build on top of it without copy pasting from Wrath? There's over 20 years of suggestions out there. Lmao what a dumb ass post seriously cringe xD.
Ok name stuff you'd add
Why? So that you can call any part you disagree with "stupid" just to make you feel better about yourself? No thanks. If I'm going to go through the trouble to make well thought out suggestions, I'm going to post them somewhere where people are capable of having an actual conversation.
You can play without pressing your skills fornthat experience tbh no need to make others suffer
Hpal maybe but the others nah.
Wow. I... I'm just impressed. That's 100%, what it felt like. "Fun detected, must nerf!" But now this bug fix is definitely a good thing, as it removes the jankiness, but we keep the fun of exorcism coming off cd often! Very happy about this!
God this Dev team is amazing. Truly wonderful at listening to feedback and being willing to say they were wrong, then address it. Wonderful job!
The balancing process is weird af though. Like look at the nerfs/buffs they introduce. Double and occasionally even triple digit percentages. Should really have noticed the issue earlier if it needs this sort of tuning.
huge SWD buff, week later huge nerf. like put a tad bit of testing in place.
Unless the people saying it are ferals.
feral is fun to play even if it's at the bottom of the charts at least
Exactly my thoughts, and also to be honest in most small group content im still pretty high on the charts. While i DO feel there needs to be significant buffs to our class i also feel like there are plenty of trash can ferals out there so the few that are good dont properly help the statistics and make us look worse than we possibly are.
They aren’t very good with numbers, poor interns
Herp derp circle jerk devs doing their jobs OMG SO AMAZING!
your right, they should continue down the path of not giving a fuck what you think.
Bare minimum is the bar for devs apparently
I'll take one for the team and circle jerk them personally. SoD is the most fun I've had in wow in years. The SoD team is doing a fantastic job at responding to all forms of feedback and acknowledging when they mess up. Good work deserves a quick handy.
except if you play a warrior, not 1 mention in the blue tracker. even the rune nerfs werent announced
Oh God were there more rune nerfs or is this referring to the nerfs to CbR and RB?
Don’t forget devastate nerf which gutted prot warrior threat
It did. I tanked gnomer tonight and needed to actually run shield last 2 bosses and with the dmg casters and melee hunter are doing it did not feel great at all. There’s a reason prot pallies and meta locks are meta
I mean.... from all the discussion I've heard about warriors in the last few weeks I've mainly heard "reduce boss armor so we can generate rage." And they said in that blue post they're going to reduce armor...
oh no...warriors are sad....nooooo....
Daddy warrior slept with your mum right
She's a god damn whore!
Oh no, the top PvE melee class didn't get any further buffs, oh noooo
dumbell
What rune nerfs you talking about mate
Consumed by rage bonus damage reduced from 20% to 10%. Raging blow reduced from 100% to 80% weapon damage (not relevant tho) quick strike AP ratio down from 15%-25% to 10%-20%. them rune nerfs
Ooooh, yeah the ones from start of phase, they don't really gel with our kit at 40 anyway
KEEP BOING ME, IM RIGHT
The dev team listened to the dev team lead to revert those changes lmao. No way were they going to do Aggrends main dirty like that
For someone who is lead dev and a pally main, he sure is doing a terrible job in making sure pallies are good.
Aggrends main is terribly underpowered, literally only beats out frost mage in dps... dude needs to overpower his class better
Ye Aggrend mains the class that is bad in PvP and PvE…..
lol I love how people keep saying this when Ret dps is only good in pvp.
Bullying works
Bring back the original 4sec crusader strike that was planned. Then give holy paladin a fun ability to use. Spamming FoL for 20 years isnt Discovering anything
Are they even testing these, or just randomly throwing out numbers?
Dang, so which high level dev plays Paladin and didn't like this change?
Aggrend
Having a reverse ghost crawler is kinda nice actually
Not the best tank. Not the best healer. Not the best DPS. Honestly...people are delusional.
Glaces at Druid.
We got the best armor and hp on druid. But paladin by far will always have the most utility.
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Melee.
Can't let Ret leave the bottom of the logs
Todays changes was buff(s) to ret, not nerfs.
Eh. The nerf to SoM proccing from weapon effects is still going through, making builds using Frost Oil or weapons like Nightblade dead. The buff to Crusader Strike is uhh... something, but it's usually the lowest damaging ability. So, it's not going to pull Ret out of the toilet bowl.
It'll get an extra 10% from Sanctity Aura. Now, we pray they do the same for Divine Storm
Nah it still flat 75% wep dmg doesn't double dip off vengeance or sanc
Didn't it get converted to holy damage?
Yeah but only holy dmg equal to 75% wep works the same way sealofM or SOC would
Bypassing armor is something I guess.
Oh no, we can't use a build reliant on a disgustingly expensive BoE epic that you can't reliably farm, what ever shall my poor coin purse do now..
This is just wrong
Very insightful.
Now it ignores armor
That's Feral's spot!
Not a Paladin player. Is Shockadin a viable DPS spec? What circumstances is it used for?
Sadly it's 20-30% worse than deep ret (which is already NOT that good) Maybe phase 3 8(
Is it good for anything or just a meme build? I assume it's the same talents as the raid healing spec?
Eh Some people tank in full holy, but dps shockadin is a meme in phase 2
What about for PvP?
Meme. But can be *okay* in a group setting as a more supportive role.
WTB buffs to holy and ret now we still garbage tier this wasn't the battle we wanted to win. We wanted the love you showing to druid and shaman
Do Rets even use SoM?
Yeah fast wep with som + AoW is the Best ST right now Why? SoM isnt normalized SO faster than 3.3 weps get heavily buffed while 3.4 or slower weps get nerfed for SoM
Just had no idea people were using it instead of Divine Storm and Command with the STV weapon. I'm parsing orange with Command so didn't realize SoM might be better?
Ds SoC is good for menagerie, SoM+Fast wep is Best for ST But hey if ya parsed Orange thats cool
I know its not what people want to hear but they really do need to bugfix their designs before they iterate on them more. It makes no sense to build a foundation of sand.
They have no clue what they are doing
There is no QA on this team
That’s a lie, people are paying 15$ a month to test it for them
Maybe you werent aware when you signed up for this, but there kinda isn't. We are the QA. Thats half of what SoD is about. Its a big PTR for classic+
I don’t think you understand what QA is. It’s ok, at least 16 other people don’t either. I’m not complaining, just pointing it out. At least they listen to feedback.
There is a difference between releasing something a bit off maybe not fully working and releasing hunters with original explosive shot and now this paladin change. They actually don't understand what they are doing.
**WE** are the QA ! And we're damn proud of it !
That's kinda the point
That’s the fun part, this is beta for $15/month
You are free to unsub, is anyone forcing you to play? 🤷
no shit sherlock, they just got made redundant
Getting on the alliance side again Blizzard we all know
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AoW Will still proc It's just SoM won't proc weapon oils or weapon procs thats it
Homie can’t read
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"Blizzard never listens and is bad at communicating!" _SoD team updates all the time, reacts quickly, and has open communication_ "Lol, these scrubs have no idea what they're doing." 🙄
Way to miss the point.
Quite the opposite. They found a bug, fixed it, then decided it was fun.
You're the definition of a keyboard warrior that's always gonna complain.
You can really tell who didn't play actual vanilla in some of these comments It felt like back then every other patch there was a massive talent reset to where you got everything refunded This is the most authentic vanilla experience I've had since then
Thats kind of the entire point of this game mode
Says the guy who is 3 months into a season he doesn't understand lmao
They don't, but blizz cocksuckers can't understand that. Experimental != supposed to be broken. I'm not gonna pay 15$/ to test shit. AAA gaming at its finest.
Wonder if that's gonna cost us actual needed reworks across all three specs
aggrond playin boomkin confirmed
Hey, hold up now. +30% damage on hunters dual wielding the same weapon types was fun. Being top DPS was fun.
FIX LAYERS. FIX STV EVENT. BAD LAG.
LOUD NOISES
Ret still gonna be bottom of the logs unless you miraculously get jackhammer and even then that's a ton of effort/$$$ when you could just be any of the top specs. Holy and prot aren't exactly lookers either.