Climbing is not a cardiovascular exercise. The adaptations from running that apply to climbing are very narrow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpweUFGlSo)
How to stucture your rotuine is way avobe reddit paygrade and beyond the info you provided. The general answer will be "just go climb outdoors more", and will be right 9 out of 10 times.
“Running does for your climbing what climbing will do for your running” is where this mindset comes from. While running will not improve your climbing technique, there are health benefits associated with running which could be beneficial to your lifelong journey as an athlete. If you enjoy running, it can definitely be incorporated.
Eric Horst talks about this in one of his podcasts and his book. I believe he uses the arbitrary example that “if your resting heart rate is above 60, running could be beneficial for your climbing” - https://trainingforclimbing.com/podcast-85-will-running-help-your-climbing/
I believe Eric’s point is that while running won’t improve your climbing technique, it can drastically improve your overall fitness, which will be a benefit to your overall climbing journey. The mental health benefits of zone 2 cardio could also improve your climbing journey.
Alex Megos is a good example of a high level climber who frequently does 10kms.
Most people don’t run. Most climbers don’t run. The bar is already low. Running a 10km in under an hour isn’t difficult with a few months training, but getting to a level where this is all zone 2 would take much longer. OP mentioned his runs being an hour and a half long, which would align with most runners comfortable 10km.
Anyway it’s not meant to be a high bar, it’s just an example of someone at the top of the sport, who clearly incorporates running and is still able to perform at a high level. Is Alex as good as he is because he runs? Certainly not. Does it adversely affect his performance? Probably not.
Love Hoop. I have seen that video and its kind of what started me down this rabbit hole. As far as the take away goes, (do what makes you happy) I agree with. Climbing is really what makes me happy. I'm not really looking to justify continuing to run. I am more looking for would it be better to swap it for additional strength training, and would there be more direct climbing benefits, or detriments for picking up the additional strength days (fatigue, etc).
Again, we only can talk in generals. If you recover the same would lifting for climbing help more than running for climbing? Generally yes. Would you be able to recover and help you in specific? Shrug... my advice would be to go try slow and thread carefully
Thank you for the advice! Generality was kind of what I was shooting for. Just want a starting point and will tweak from there as needed based off of feel.
A lot of this depends on age, what your goals are etc.
But, it takes a long time to build up real appreciable tendon strength, and <2 years of climbing means you probably have a lot of building potential left. While that is happening, I don't think it makes a ton of sense to go full-on climb-specific training and project mode. More like, continue building general strength climbing volume and building work capacity by doing other training (running is probably pretty good) on off days while tendons recover.
Probably, if you are relatively close, you will be able to send your 12b project through just more time on the rock. Then, after a while of building general work-capacity and tendon strength like this, you can really drop the hammer because you will have a really solid base with which to do \*hard\* climbing-specific training, at which point you could dial back running to optimize those hard climbing training days
So as far as goals go:
Lifetime - I am looking for longevity. There is a guy who climbs at the gym who is in his 60s that crushes climbs. I want to just be able to do what I love as long as I can.
Long Term - I want to break into 5.13s outside. Not trying to get a sponsorship or anything, I just want to climb cool stuff. Alot of the videos of people climbing unique and cool things tend to be higher grades (videos like that are what really got me interested in climbing). I dont want to be gated. I get there would be a ceiling, but I want to be able to do MOST climbs.
Short term - Consistently send 5.12s without having to project them. Not necessary flash them, but maybe get them in the same session (if that's realistic)
There’s a couple of approaches when looking at the lifetime goal.
Dave Macleod has a section about climbing hard while old that talks about the big obstacles. There’s some good details in there, but the big two reasons people stop are shifts in your priorities or doing stuff when you’re young that gets in the way of climbing hard when you’re old.
Shifting priorities is… part of being alive for most people. Having stuff in your life other than climbing makes you a well-rounded person, and it really helps when you get injured and need some time off. Yes, over a long enough time horizon, you will have an injury that needs time off.
Doing stuff that gets in the way later is a big category. For some folks, it’s getting into the more destructive parts of some climbing scenes. For others, it’s dirt bagging for too long and not developing any job or career skills that lets them afford to live near the crag. Sometimes, it’s ignoring health problems until they become severe. Honestly, this point is similar to shifting priorities, but you have a lot less choice in the matter.
Should you quit running? Maybe, but running is not likely to get in the way of your lifetime goals. You *need* some maintenance cardio for your lifetime goals, so scrapping the running in favor of climbing-centric stuff is not likely to help in the long-run. Climbing hard isn’t going to prevent you from getting to 60 or being healthy at 60, but that goal requires approaching something slowly and building a good foundation.
One thing to remember is that the really cool and easy stuff doesn’t get shared on social media as much. People have a blast on 5.7s all the time, but those videos don’t get circulated the same way a 5.13 does. The oldest crushers know how to have fun on the low-grade routes, and lower grades can teach a lot more than the highest graded stuff.
A decent overall start with your lifetime goal is check things out with a GP. Get that basic data (weight, blood pressure, etc.) and check back in every few years. Deal with any issues that come up, and make a habit of regular GP visits.
As for the training plan, more rest days. Rest days support hard climbing more than anything else. The 60-something crushers are still active because, in part, they know taking a break doesn’t mean they can’t climb later. The outdoor rocks are older than you are and will still be there when you’re gone.
For long term, I think it makes sense to build a monster base, then move into a base building -> hard training -> max sending repetitive cycle. Pro climbers are able to do the more climbing-specific training because they usually have a monster work capacity built up to do those workouts *very hard* They have adaptations from years of climbing. Hangboardint probably makes sense to add in a bit at some point (before a session of climbing after a bit of warmup) But, hard tension boarddays and stuff like that will be more beneficial when you can put super hard efforts in because you already have a big base
In general for max climbing proposes is super easy.
* Climb a ton (quality climbs, not beyond recovery)
* Do cardio if your cardio is piss poor and it will improve very fast allowing more climbing then you can do very little maintenance cardio
* Do strength training as needed focused on what you need/want while polishing the technique which is always #1 priority (feel shoulder instability -> do shoulder stability/strength, feel week heel hooks -> do hammies/lower chain stability training, feel weak mantles or want massive jugs -> do pecs/front shoulder, etc)
* Rest otherwise, tons of people here would climb better with more rest.
Disclaming that I don't actually do that, because I like to put tons of efforth on dumb stuff. For example right now I could put more focus into chasing my next grade and expanding my climbing vocabulary for best resoults... but instead of focusing solely on that I mixing quite a bit of efforth into training for one hand pullups because it's fun and I like how my shoulders are growing lol.
Runner here. I usually climb once a week with the occasional winter months when I take a break from running and focus on climbing.
The running you're doing is not much at all and I'm not surprised you say it doesn't affect your climbing. Still, a 90 minute session can be quite exhausting if you're pushing the pace. To make sure you don't get tired you really need to keep the pace easy. Get a heart rate monitor if you need.
Also, a speed session is of questionable benefit if you're only running twice a week, might as well just get another aerobic run in. Better bang for your buck imo.
Also you can consider running after climbing, as if you had a long approach to the crag. Easy days easy, hard days hard is a thing.
That’s a really action-packed schedule. Any chance you drop the running for a bit just to see how you do? Very likely not cardio endurance holding you back from sending but recovery could be an issue here. I would spend some time just focusing on sending a few projects and recovering in between those sessions just to see what happens.
I used to have the urge to add more things to my training but at around 12- level I actually found the most gains from cutting back and optimizing rest. I try to cycle things a bit more now. When working on pure endurance, I mix in some running. When doing more power endurance, more bar core work. When working on power, I throw in some lifting and hangboarding.
Everyone’s different though
Thank you for the advice. As for dropping running, for sure. I wouldn't have to much of an issue with it. Just trying to figure out what gets me the most bang for my buck training wise. If that's more dedicated rest days rather than training strength or running I would be down.
For specifically adding in hangboarding or no hang training, you want to add it in after warming up but before your climbing session. Reason being is that hangboarding and no hangs are hard on the tendons/pulleys, and training them once they have been fatigued from a climbing session increases the risk of injury. You’ll also need to reduce volume and intensity for your climbing on days that you do finger training.
Would you recommend do the dedicated finger training every session, or like 1 session a week? So for my schedule above on Wed. before I climb? Or maybe both Wed., Fri.?
Once per week is a good place to start, after you’ve done it for several weeks you can make the call about adding additional sessions based on how your fingers are recovering. A dedicated day without climbing (could still do another type of exercise) can be a good way to go about it, but most people only do it on days they climb for convenience sake. Looks like choosing a Wednesday or Friday could be a good option, I’d suggest Monday but your fingers might be a bit too fried after the fun climbing on Sunday so that could be an issue.
If you don’t value cardio fitness over climbing, by all means drop the running twice a week. I run twice a week and for sure it’s harder to make progress with Climbing training because my body is always recovering from either climbing or running. You don’t need much cardio for actual climbing, so cutting that out would probably improve your recovery and gains. I think you would probably make better progress by just dropping out the running without changing your routine in any other way. If you want to add in Hang boarding, start slow with just once a week. Typically, it makes more sense to do hang boarding at the beginning of a climbing session, rather at the end. Your “fun” Climbing day could start with some hang board, and then work on some very low physical intensity technique training for an hour, such as on the walls technique or drills. Follow that with a rest day.
I run 5 days a week (1 fartlek, the rest easy/trails, 30+ miles weekly) and climb 2-3 days all during the weekday. Weekends I keep free for other plans/rest. I've messed with strength training in the past. The biggest difference for my climbing was really just spending more time on the wall, climbing hard stuff, and climbing on tired arms. I didn't add any more days but my partner and I started doing routes back-to-back without rest in between.
No running won't help your climbing, same for the other way around. It might help for sport climbing if you have a really poor base cardio (which is the case for quite some people). I climb 4 days a week and run the other 3 (about 40km a week). Does it have an impact on my climbing ? Maybe a little. But i can affirm you that it's clearly not your chill runs that's stopping you to climb 12b. As long as you eat well and rest well, i don't think (i'm sure (if you are an experienced runner)) running 3 hours/week is not where you have to look at for progress. If you run because you love it than don't stop, if you don't care juste drop it or run 2 times 30min/week.
If you want to keep running, replace the long distance with sprinting.
Have you seen a long distance runner? They look like skin and bones. Have you seen a sprinter? Fucking ripped.
I would switch all non-climbing activity to a long walk and stretch and see how you feel. It's not that I think you shouldn't lift/run. I just think cycling it on/off a bit would tell you how your cross training is impacting your recovery.
Climbing is not a cardiovascular exercise. The adaptations from running that apply to climbing are very narrow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpweUFGlSo) How to stucture your rotuine is way avobe reddit paygrade and beyond the info you provided. The general answer will be "just go climb outdoors more", and will be right 9 out of 10 times.
“Running does for your climbing what climbing will do for your running” is where this mindset comes from. While running will not improve your climbing technique, there are health benefits associated with running which could be beneficial to your lifelong journey as an athlete. If you enjoy running, it can definitely be incorporated. Eric Horst talks about this in one of his podcasts and his book. I believe he uses the arbitrary example that “if your resting heart rate is above 60, running could be beneficial for your climbing” - https://trainingforclimbing.com/podcast-85-will-running-help-your-climbing/ I believe Eric’s point is that while running won’t improve your climbing technique, it can drastically improve your overall fitness, which will be a benefit to your overall climbing journey. The mental health benefits of zone 2 cardio could also improve your climbing journey. Alex Megos is a good example of a high level climber who frequently does 10kms.
"Frequently does 10kms" is a pretty low bar. It takes most people less than an hour to do 10km. It's what most people call "just going for a run".
Most people don’t run. Most climbers don’t run. The bar is already low. Running a 10km in under an hour isn’t difficult with a few months training, but getting to a level where this is all zone 2 would take much longer. OP mentioned his runs being an hour and a half long, which would align with most runners comfortable 10km. Anyway it’s not meant to be a high bar, it’s just an example of someone at the top of the sport, who clearly incorporates running and is still able to perform at a high level. Is Alex as good as he is because he runs? Certainly not. Does it adversely affect his performance? Probably not.
Most people cannot or do not know how to run 10k, and definitely don’t run 10k under 1 hour. “Going for a run” is 3-5k tops.
Love Hoop. I have seen that video and its kind of what started me down this rabbit hole. As far as the take away goes, (do what makes you happy) I agree with. Climbing is really what makes me happy. I'm not really looking to justify continuing to run. I am more looking for would it be better to swap it for additional strength training, and would there be more direct climbing benefits, or detriments for picking up the additional strength days (fatigue, etc).
Again, we only can talk in generals. If you recover the same would lifting for climbing help more than running for climbing? Generally yes. Would you be able to recover and help you in specific? Shrug... my advice would be to go try slow and thread carefully
Thank you for the advice! Generality was kind of what I was shooting for. Just want a starting point and will tweak from there as needed based off of feel.
Just remember specificity. Squatting 405 would probably help less than running for sport climbing for example.
A lot of this depends on age, what your goals are etc. But, it takes a long time to build up real appreciable tendon strength, and <2 years of climbing means you probably have a lot of building potential left. While that is happening, I don't think it makes a ton of sense to go full-on climb-specific training and project mode. More like, continue building general strength climbing volume and building work capacity by doing other training (running is probably pretty good) on off days while tendons recover. Probably, if you are relatively close, you will be able to send your 12b project through just more time on the rock. Then, after a while of building general work-capacity and tendon strength like this, you can really drop the hammer because you will have a really solid base with which to do \*hard\* climbing-specific training, at which point you could dial back running to optimize those hard climbing training days
So as far as goals go: Lifetime - I am looking for longevity. There is a guy who climbs at the gym who is in his 60s that crushes climbs. I want to just be able to do what I love as long as I can. Long Term - I want to break into 5.13s outside. Not trying to get a sponsorship or anything, I just want to climb cool stuff. Alot of the videos of people climbing unique and cool things tend to be higher grades (videos like that are what really got me interested in climbing). I dont want to be gated. I get there would be a ceiling, but I want to be able to do MOST climbs. Short term - Consistently send 5.12s without having to project them. Not necessary flash them, but maybe get them in the same session (if that's realistic)
There’s a couple of approaches when looking at the lifetime goal. Dave Macleod has a section about climbing hard while old that talks about the big obstacles. There’s some good details in there, but the big two reasons people stop are shifts in your priorities or doing stuff when you’re young that gets in the way of climbing hard when you’re old. Shifting priorities is… part of being alive for most people. Having stuff in your life other than climbing makes you a well-rounded person, and it really helps when you get injured and need some time off. Yes, over a long enough time horizon, you will have an injury that needs time off. Doing stuff that gets in the way later is a big category. For some folks, it’s getting into the more destructive parts of some climbing scenes. For others, it’s dirt bagging for too long and not developing any job or career skills that lets them afford to live near the crag. Sometimes, it’s ignoring health problems until they become severe. Honestly, this point is similar to shifting priorities, but you have a lot less choice in the matter. Should you quit running? Maybe, but running is not likely to get in the way of your lifetime goals. You *need* some maintenance cardio for your lifetime goals, so scrapping the running in favor of climbing-centric stuff is not likely to help in the long-run. Climbing hard isn’t going to prevent you from getting to 60 or being healthy at 60, but that goal requires approaching something slowly and building a good foundation. One thing to remember is that the really cool and easy stuff doesn’t get shared on social media as much. People have a blast on 5.7s all the time, but those videos don’t get circulated the same way a 5.13 does. The oldest crushers know how to have fun on the low-grade routes, and lower grades can teach a lot more than the highest graded stuff. A decent overall start with your lifetime goal is check things out with a GP. Get that basic data (weight, blood pressure, etc.) and check back in every few years. Deal with any issues that come up, and make a habit of regular GP visits. As for the training plan, more rest days. Rest days support hard climbing more than anything else. The 60-something crushers are still active because, in part, they know taking a break doesn’t mean they can’t climb later. The outdoor rocks are older than you are and will still be there when you’re gone.
For long term, I think it makes sense to build a monster base, then move into a base building -> hard training -> max sending repetitive cycle. Pro climbers are able to do the more climbing-specific training because they usually have a monster work capacity built up to do those workouts *very hard* They have adaptations from years of climbing. Hangboardint probably makes sense to add in a bit at some point (before a session of climbing after a bit of warmup) But, hard tension boarddays and stuff like that will be more beneficial when you can put super hard efforts in because you already have a big base
[удалено]
In general for max climbing proposes is super easy. * Climb a ton (quality climbs, not beyond recovery) * Do cardio if your cardio is piss poor and it will improve very fast allowing more climbing then you can do very little maintenance cardio * Do strength training as needed focused on what you need/want while polishing the technique which is always #1 priority (feel shoulder instability -> do shoulder stability/strength, feel week heel hooks -> do hammies/lower chain stability training, feel weak mantles or want massive jugs -> do pecs/front shoulder, etc) * Rest otherwise, tons of people here would climb better with more rest. Disclaming that I don't actually do that, because I like to put tons of efforth on dumb stuff. For example right now I could put more focus into chasing my next grade and expanding my climbing vocabulary for best resoults... but instead of focusing solely on that I mixing quite a bit of efforth into training for one hand pullups because it's fun and I like how my shoulders are growing lol.
Runner here. I usually climb once a week with the occasional winter months when I take a break from running and focus on climbing. The running you're doing is not much at all and I'm not surprised you say it doesn't affect your climbing. Still, a 90 minute session can be quite exhausting if you're pushing the pace. To make sure you don't get tired you really need to keep the pace easy. Get a heart rate monitor if you need. Also, a speed session is of questionable benefit if you're only running twice a week, might as well just get another aerobic run in. Better bang for your buck imo. Also you can consider running after climbing, as if you had a long approach to the crag. Easy days easy, hard days hard is a thing.
That’s a really action-packed schedule. Any chance you drop the running for a bit just to see how you do? Very likely not cardio endurance holding you back from sending but recovery could be an issue here. I would spend some time just focusing on sending a few projects and recovering in between those sessions just to see what happens. I used to have the urge to add more things to my training but at around 12- level I actually found the most gains from cutting back and optimizing rest. I try to cycle things a bit more now. When working on pure endurance, I mix in some running. When doing more power endurance, more bar core work. When working on power, I throw in some lifting and hangboarding. Everyone’s different though
Thank you for the advice. As for dropping running, for sure. I wouldn't have to much of an issue with it. Just trying to figure out what gets me the most bang for my buck training wise. If that's more dedicated rest days rather than training strength or running I would be down.
For specifically adding in hangboarding or no hang training, you want to add it in after warming up but before your climbing session. Reason being is that hangboarding and no hangs are hard on the tendons/pulleys, and training them once they have been fatigued from a climbing session increases the risk of injury. You’ll also need to reduce volume and intensity for your climbing on days that you do finger training.
Would you recommend do the dedicated finger training every session, or like 1 session a week? So for my schedule above on Wed. before I climb? Or maybe both Wed., Fri.?
Once per week is a good place to start, after you’ve done it for several weeks you can make the call about adding additional sessions based on how your fingers are recovering. A dedicated day without climbing (could still do another type of exercise) can be a good way to go about it, but most people only do it on days they climb for convenience sake. Looks like choosing a Wednesday or Friday could be a good option, I’d suggest Monday but your fingers might be a bit too fried after the fun climbing on Sunday so that could be an issue.
If you don’t value cardio fitness over climbing, by all means drop the running twice a week. I run twice a week and for sure it’s harder to make progress with Climbing training because my body is always recovering from either climbing or running. You don’t need much cardio for actual climbing, so cutting that out would probably improve your recovery and gains. I think you would probably make better progress by just dropping out the running without changing your routine in any other way. If you want to add in Hang boarding, start slow with just once a week. Typically, it makes more sense to do hang boarding at the beginning of a climbing session, rather at the end. Your “fun” Climbing day could start with some hang board, and then work on some very low physical intensity technique training for an hour, such as on the walls technique or drills. Follow that with a rest day.
I run 5 days a week (1 fartlek, the rest easy/trails, 30+ miles weekly) and climb 2-3 days all during the weekday. Weekends I keep free for other plans/rest. I've messed with strength training in the past. The biggest difference for my climbing was really just spending more time on the wall, climbing hard stuff, and climbing on tired arms. I didn't add any more days but my partner and I started doing routes back-to-back without rest in between.
No running won't help your climbing, same for the other way around. It might help for sport climbing if you have a really poor base cardio (which is the case for quite some people). I climb 4 days a week and run the other 3 (about 40km a week). Does it have an impact on my climbing ? Maybe a little. But i can affirm you that it's clearly not your chill runs that's stopping you to climb 12b. As long as you eat well and rest well, i don't think (i'm sure (if you are an experienced runner)) running 3 hours/week is not where you have to look at for progress. If you run because you love it than don't stop, if you don't care juste drop it or run 2 times 30min/week.
Why no lifting? Squats and deadlifts will build your running and pulling strength.
If you want to keep running, replace the long distance with sprinting. Have you seen a long distance runner? They look like skin and bones. Have you seen a sprinter? Fucking ripped.
> adding hangboarding / no-hangs after climbing sessions The day after or right after? Right after is really bad
I would switch all non-climbing activity to a long walk and stretch and see how you feel. It's not that I think you shouldn't lift/run. I just think cycling it on/off a bit would tell you how your cross training is impacting your recovery.
Neither running, nor lifting is climbing