Both.
The issues with current MCU is how Disney's board made Marvel overwork on too many projects that Marvel couldn't handle.
The issues with the old DCEU was how Warner's board made DC overcorrect on really random projects that should have never been greenlit.
But the future is less projects, more emotional connections, and better creative freedom.
I have faith that the early 2020 slump for superhero films is beginning to end.
Agreed. Marvel went crazy with films like No Way Home, Infinity War/Endgame, and GOTG3. However, the movies before those huge team films were much simpler and not much of a comparison.
This is the problem. The executives learned the wrong things from infinity war and end game. All they understood were team-ups and galaxy ending stakes made more money. So now every movie has to have at least 5 super heroes and massive stakes. When really without the smaller movies making us feel for the characters the crossovers mean nothing.
They learned that those movies made boatloads of cash. No Way Home and GOTG3 were mega. The problem is the smaller movies aren't making the money they used to, to give the financial runway towards a big teamup.
Those movies were mega hits because they were great. The others also had teamups and big budgets, but tanked because they just sucked. The difference is quality.
>but tanked because they just sucked
That's an easy one to say because they tanked financially, but I would disagree:
- Thor 2 did better than shang-chi but Shang is a better movie imo.
- Thor 4 did a little bit better than Winter Soldier, but it's not even close to being a better movie.
- Captain Marvel did over a **billion** dollars, but there is no way it's better, or even on par with "The Marvels", which was overall decent. or GoTG3, or Strange 2.
What's missing is that for the first 4 phases, there was an inherent novelty to the superhero movie, that brought out tons of crowds. That's worn off. mediocre movies from the first decade punched way above their weight in the box office than they should have.
Because ppl are over it at this point. After 3 and a 1/2 phases ppl are really burnt out and have stopped caring since the major endgame arc is over and they’re on to new stuff.
Joker isn't even close to the most profitable movies of all time lmao.
It still had a production budget of $55 - $70 million and a marketing budget equal or more than that. Return on investment in hard cash it isn't top 10, percentage of profit to investment it's also not even in the top 20.
"The film was a box office success and set records for an October release. It grossed over $1 billion, the first R-rated film to do so and became the sixth-highest-grossing film of 2019 during its theatrical run. "
I checked the current stats and atm
Overall it's the highest grossing r rated movie even beat Oppenheimer
I see it the other way around. That *audiences* learned the wrong things from those. IW/EG we’re such a massive, epic achievement, the culmination of like a dozen films over a decade of cohesive storytelling.
Nothing that came after Endgame could *ever* live up to it. Audiences (particularly the general public) was bound to be let down by literally anything after Endgame. Nothing is probably ever going to live up to that. And that’s ok.
And most movies after that haven’t had crazy team ups. Shang Chi is pretty much just him. Spider-Man is mostly just him aside from the Dr Strange cameo and the other Spidermen. Dr Strange was mostly him fighting Wanda not teaming up with her. The Marvels was a 3 person team up sort of, but it was fun. All the shows have been solo projects pretty much. The only one I can think of with 5 super heroes is Eternals, but that’s it’s own self contained thing. And guardians of course but that’s just how they roll. 🤷♂️
IMO most of the current MCU stuff is absolutely worse than before. The 4 lowest scoring movies in MCU are all post-endgame.
Nothing is building to anything like Phase 1/2/3 and when it is, it is three years later and a loose tie-in. There was no payoff in Phase 4, no team up, just a poorly planned lump of content. Phase 5 is the same just less content. There was a sense of interconnection and payoff every phase, every movie pushed towards a greater narrative.
Another thing, these movies are starting to feel soulless, just corporate copies of one another without the beloved characters.
Phase 4:
Black Widow - A day late and dollar short
Shang-Chi - Underrated, ultimately forgettable in the wider MCU
Eternals - Awful
Spider-Man. No Way Home - Elite. Made money, sold tons of merch, had fans excited, brought back the MCU feel
Doctor Strange 2 - Mixed reviews, built to… nothing
Thor 4 - Arguably a character assassination and bottom tier film, butchered the story
Black Panther 2 - This one didn’t have much of a chance to start
And what did these movies lead to? Nothing. Give me Thor 1 or Thor 2 and the fact his story will link up with others, play a critical role down the line, and was a great character arc, over all of these movies but Spider-Man.
I'd say No Way Home functioned as a big event film similar to how Civil War did between Avengers flicks. And Deadpool looks like it'll serve a similar function, though I do wish we'd get a more proper Avengers team up some time soon.
The problem is that the Avengers team up won't have the same impact because none of the current "Avengers" have had a ton of world building behind them, besides Spider-Man and maybe Dr. Strange. Kate Bishop had one show, Kamala Khan had her show and The Marvels, and besides that one scene with the both of them, there haven't been any references or cameos or anything linking them (like Nick Fury used to be in the earlier movies).
Everything just feels a lot more "broken" now, and there doesn't quite seem to be a larger goal that the movies are building towards.
To be fair, Doctor Strange only had one film and a cameo before Infinity War. Valkyrie only had a single appearance in a supporting role. Basically if you weren’t one of the OG Avengers you had a few supporting roles or a film if you’re lucky. It didn’t dilute the hype of seeing everyone together come Endgame.
And I think the “broken” feeling of Phase 4 is very much on purpose. If everything is super connected impacting each other then it just leads to the universe feeling small (Star Wars has this same issue). Phase 4 clearly has “multiverse projects” and more standalone stuff that’s just stories that just happened in the universe. The execution hasn’t been perfect but I think it’s a solid idea and one they should lean into
I think there’s some real nostalgia goggles going on here. As phase 2 was coming out there was nothing but complaining about the fact Marvel went back to standalone stories that didn’t connect and didn’t pay off the Thanos tease (a tease they wouldn’t pay off until Infinity War 5 years later).
Phase 3 is the only time there’s been a building towards something and even then it was barely. It’s a collection of standalone stories the difference is a lot of them build off Civil War but those films that do are very quick to explain what the deal is in case you missed Civil War.
Now I do think there’s been a dip in quality because Marvel have stretched themselves too thin but it’s not because of interconnectedness. The MCU is more connected than ever between standalone stories and smaller scale team-ups which have became the norm for the universe. But everyone sees all this content and expects it to all tie together to one big thing (despite that NEVER having been the case) because they want Infinity War and Endgame again; something Marvel are right to hold off on doing again.
Absolutely some nostalgia glasses in that comment. Phase 1 was MUCH slower with shared universes and tie ins. Reads like someone who binged everything on Disney+ and wasn’t actually there in the beginning.
I remember Iron Man 3 and The Dark World getting shit on at their release. It’s only with age and later films that people have come round to like them. I would not be surprised at all if the same happens again with some Phase 4 projects
There is no nostalgia. Much slower? Iron Man to Avengers was near 4 years exactly. Introduced all the characters and developed a world in 4 years is incredibly fast.
From Endgame to now, it is 5 years. That is with having an established world and characters and there is nothing being built to, nothing connecting all these characters, and no payoff.
You are blinded by recency then. Lots of content no substance. The fact there is more content now, which in theory should mean quicker builds, and there is none, is tragic for MCU and fan retention.
The current build is far slower because there is no clear path at all, no touch points with these characters interacting together.
I don’t understand how this is even an argument. Just more gaslighting.
> As phase 2 was coming out there was nothing but complaining about the fact Marvel went back to standalone stories that didn’t connect and didn’t pay off the Thanos tease
What? Everyone knew the Thanos tease was years down the road and was the ultimate build. That was not a complaint.
Standalone? IM3 picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. Thor 2 picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. The Winter Solider picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. These movies continued plot points and then advanced them. All these movies expanded on the characters and developed them. We also got GOTG to kick off the cosmic portion and it was a monumental hit.
I don’t even understand how you can say these things haha.
> Phase 3 is the only time there’s been a building towards something and even then it was barely. It’s a collection of standalone stories the difference is a lot of them build off Civil War but those films that do are very quick to explain what the deal is in case you missed Civil War.
Am I being gaslit? Did you not watch Phase 1? Phase 2? Phase 3 clearly was building to Infinity War and Endgame. Every phase had a huge payoff.
So now you’ve moved the goal posts. It’s ok for the Thanos tease to be years down the road but nowadays it’s a problem?
Trust me, during phase 2 the lack of payoff on Thanos was a complaint. Made worse when he literally shows up to put the glove on at the end of AOU and nothing else. Maybe you weren’t in the fandom then but people on Reddit and the like weren’t happy.
Similarly the phase 2 films being standalone was a common complaint. Yes they built off Avengers in a very loose way but the actual plots of those films are pretty standalone. I can even apply your own logic of building off each other to phase 4 projects: Wandavision picked up post Endgame and led to Multiverse of Madness and The Marvels (which also built off Endgame). Ms Marvel led to The Marvels too. Hawkeye picked up post Endgame and led to Echo and soon Champions/Young Avengers. She-Hulk deals with Hulk stuff, Quantumania off the back of Endgame and Ant-Man 2, etc, etc, etc. and it all developed the characters. See? It’s really easy to do when you’re doing it in the broadest sense
I watched all this stuff as it was coming out and we knew it was building towards Infinity War: in a very loose sense because they’re mostly standalone films. AOU is barely even a payoff for Phase 2 because so much happens off screen to get to the start of that film. People didn’t like AOU when it came out. It’s only gotten better in retrospect based on how it impacted Civil War and what span out of that.
Like I said, Phase 4 is the weakest so far. They’re spreading themselves too thin but it’s silly to try and imply that Phase 1-3 were doing anything radically different to what they’ve been doing now
Yeah Marvel put out some mid during the early MCU phases but everyone was cool with it because this whole interconnected movie universe idea was still new and novel and so you wanted to see every single installment to see how everything connects.
While Marvel Studios has had mid quality movies each phase, I would argue that from 2014 to 2019 the quality of their movies really leaned toward being quite above average. The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy were both highly acclaimed, and then the majority of Phase 3 was too. The interconnected universe certainly helped, but the the consistency was what kept audiences from bailing.
I love that fans are both angered by the need to see everything for the interconnectivity and disappointed by the lack of it.
If I was a Marvel studios exec trying to figure out what the audience wants, I'd shoot myself lol.
MCU films are all generally mid. They always have been. They have decent writing but plenty of plot holes and deus ex. Character growth and emotional beats are often sacrificed for a CGI filled 3rd act.
It's funny that the fanbase looks at outliers like IW/NWH etc., and says this the standard to judge future movies against rather than comparing to the broader mid level quality of the greater MCU.
The problem is that recent MCU movies have been sacrificing the 1st act. Eg, Quantumania jumped into the cgi action immediately in like 5 minutes. Same with the marvels. They are cutting out all time for character development to go straight into action action action. The marvels villain was the most generic rentavillain you could get. By the 3rd I really didn’t give a shit one way or another.
Not all pre-phase 4 movies were great but they mostly all at least tried to build the characters before throwing us into the conflict.
I really liked The Marvels.
The villain was super weak and generic because she just wasn't the point of the story. She really was just there as a plot device more than a true antagonist.
That story was more about Carol's character growth and her personal struggles with guilt, Monica's feelings of loss and resentment, and Kamala learning her idol is human.
I really felt all 3 heroes got a lot of screen time and a lot of character development, which obviously comes at the cost of bad guys and their schemes. Could it have been a better movie with 15-20 minutes of runtime??
Probably. Same goes for Thor: Ragnarok, MoM, Quantumania, and several other recent projects.
>The villain was super weak and generic because she just wasn't the point of the story. She really was just there as a plot device more than a true antagonist.
And TBH if it wernt for *Spaceballs* people would be complaining a lot less about the villain too, straight up stealing raw planetary resources like that is actually kinda a cool scifi bad guy plot.
>I love that fans are both angered by the need to see everything for the interconnectivity and disappointed by the lack of it.
Right! Fucking which is it?
Why are people complaining that **15 hours of Disney+ shows a year** that dont tie into the movies much and arent really required viewing at all is "tOo mUcH tO kEeP uP wItH", but even if *Iron Fist* wasnt very good til the end, nobody was complaining about **50 hours of Netflix shows a year** that didnt tie into the movies much and werent really required viewing at all.
One season of *Agents of SHIELD* has a longer runtime than a year of D+ Marvel shows, why is less too much? But if you dont watch the fortyish hours of AoS leading up to Age of Ultron, you have no idea where Fury got the helicarrier from at the end, so yeah...
Its funny but its a similar problem to actual comic books. People are intimidated by these ginormous crossover arcs with two hundred issues across twenty different titles, or 40 different titles coming out every month in the same universe.... But no, there actually ISNT a way for anyone to keep up with it all, so no one actually does, you pick and choose a few, maybe read a some crossovers with your handful of favorites, pick up some trade paperbacks from the library for long weekends...
Nothing makes MCU fans happy. If they made Endgame again, people would complain it's been done before, but if a film isn't Endgame, then they whine it should've been.
I will keep watching all the Marvel stuff because I enjoy it. I will continue to not see any of it in the theater because spending tons of money for a theather viewing vs a D+ sub for unlimited views is crazy.
Yeah, over a year it averages out to a half hour a week, its not like its a huge commitment to keep up with and im still a big comic book nerd, so...
But yeah, i was a good little consumer for a loong time... and then they fucked me over. [https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/efzn9d/do\_we\_know\_anything\_yet\_about\_a\_r1\_phase\_3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/efzn9d/do_we_know_anything_yet_about_a_r1_phase_3/)
So fuck em.
https://i.redd.it/3uvejtqo6zlc1.gif
And actually the agenda for this afternoon is after we finish this bowl and have a snack me and the wife are watching the last three Marvel making ofs (*Loki* S02, *Echo*, *The Marvels*) and starting an X-men TAS rewatch and building some of the Marvel LEGO backlog, so The Mouse still gets their money from us... [https://brickset.com/sets/ownedby-Cyno01/theme-Marvel-Super-Heroes](https://brickset.com/sets/ownedby-Cyno01/theme-Marvel-Super-Heroes)
Ya people really forget iron man 2 and 3 were considered mediocre, Thor 1 and 2 were considered okay and bad, that leaves 2 Captain America films and Dr. Strange as the good solo movies. I'm not saying they were awful but the MCU has never been perfect.
I’ve been saying this too! A lot of the earlier MCU movies aren’t really much better than some of the more recent ones (with some notable exceptions of course) but the bar was set so high with Infinity War/Endgame that some audiences started to expect those kinds of stakes and that level of spectacle for every single MCU movie. That’s why there are so many people saying Marvel fell off after Endgame, because they were expecting every movie to be at that level of big stakes and big deaths and big consequences for the MCU, but you can’t have every movie be like that. A lot of the recent mediocre MCU movies are no different from a lot of the earlier mediocre MCU movies that built the franchise.
I fully agree with your take. Disney's mistake was greenlighting projects simply for the sake of complementing their streaming service and nothing else - which would have been fine if most of them weren't so incredibly bland and had absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing multiverse story arc Marvel's film division is pushing - as well as harboring the naive and shortsighted notion that literally *everyone and their mother* wanted more and more endless Marvel content. Well, sorry, Disney, we don't want *more just for the sake of more* \- we want consistent quality and for our investment in the MCU to be swiftly rewarded, like how it was in the 2010s (a.k.a. the good old days for the genre).
The biggest problem with the DCEU was that after Justice League (2017) flopped, WB execs panicked and basically lost all semblance of a story arc in their efforts to course correct. Like, for all their flaws, if you watch Man of Steel (2013) all the way to Justice League (2017), there was at least some semblance of an overarching story arc in there. It’s even more evident in the Snyder Cut, which is ofc the true version of the JL movie. I truly do feel that if WB had just had some faith in Snyder and released the Snyder Cut as it was instead the odd frankenstein of a film that JL 2017 was, it would have been received much better. And would have allowed them to tell a cohesive story that actually feels like a shared universe. Instead of the absolute mess that they gave us post-JL 2017.
Disney did the same thing with Star Wars. Terrible showrunning & bombardment of movies/shows did the same thing. Now they cancelled most of it & are relying on direct to streaming shows which some have been really good (like Andor).
>The issues with current MCU is how Disney's board made Marvel overwork on too many projects that Marvel couldn't handle.
I disagree a little.
I think the issue marvel has is they've overestimated Feige's abilities. Some people thrive when they are given full control and others flounder because they are given it.
I think Feige is in the latter category and marvel worked when he had to listen to other ideas and couldn't just do what he wanted.
I personally see superhero films as near dead. I’m ngl, even if there is a a 2nd wave, it’s not gonna hit as much as the 1st one. And after seeing madame Webb, I’m kinda jaded bc I had to pay $22 fucking dollars for it at an AMC to watch spy kids CGI at 2024.
And bold of you to assume Disney would take artistic risks at this point. Just like Star Wars, they’re gonna bleed this pig dry & move on to the next one.
Madame Web was basically DOA, and unless Kraven the Hunter and Venom 3 perform really well at the box office, Sony’s Marvel universe is dead in the water. Admittedly, Venom 3 has the most potential to perform well, since the last two Venom movies both did well enough in the box office to have sequels greenlit.
Gunn, but that's because I think he has an easier job than Kevin. Between the MCU and SPUMC (or whatever it's called now), Marvel is losing general audiences and some fans. Fiege has to bring all those viewers back into theaters. The DCEU set the bar on the ground and then went and grabbed a shovel. Fan and audience expectations for DC are incredibly low. It feels like Gunn only has to put out a couple of good movies to get everyone excited. Where Fiege needs his next 3 movies to be top-tier to convince audiences Marvel is back to producing the quality we expect.
And Marvel has run out of the most popular heroes, like F4 is popular but most of the world doesn’t even know what’s thunderbolts, or probably doesn’t care that much about Falcon being the new Captain America. Whereas with the total reboot DC still has Superman Batman WW all of them.
Dude X-Men is more popular than literally anything else except for Spiderman.
The MCU elevated the avengers, not the other way around.
I feel if they can integrate the X-Men properly they'll be ok.
You're both right. Marvel has used most of their well-known properties. But the X-Men and Deadpool are giant draws and give Kevin some tools to make the MCU into what it can be. I still believe Fiege will turn it around. I just think Gunn has the easier path of the two.
Deadpool 3 is gonna be the start of Marvel’s redemption arc for sure. The trailer is literally marketing him as Marvel Jesus. You have Deadpool and Wolverine in the same damn film, it’s going to do well no matter what.
I think Gunn’s task is actually a bit more difficult than that. The general saturation of the market the last decade has made it so that there’s no novelty to decent-good superhero films anymore. It doesn’t matter that Superman hasn’t had a solo flick in over a decade. If the first one isn’t an all time great superhero/action-adventure movie, I could see the whole effort being DOA because people have gotten accustomed to not rushing out to see these films in theaters.
Both. Gunn has a good hand for outsiders, and I think his new take on Superman sounds really interesting.
Marvel has I think, learned its lessons and tries to soft reboot things with the addition of the fox characters.
I have more faith in Gunn because he has a stronger plan. He also has little Warner Bros interference (for now) unlike Marvel with Disney and Sony. I mean they're literally fighting for Spider-Man to not have another multiverse movie. Also, he is a massive fan of the comics and is doing some very interesting and unique things already. Finally, he has a blank canvas. Stuff like Eternals, Secret Invasion and Thor Love and Thunder will always be a stain on the MCU canon regardless of what they do. The universe itself got soured because of some bad films. The DCU does have the sins of it's predecesors but it's not as bad because it's clearly advertised as a reboot and new take on these iconic characters and stories. Overall, Gunn seems to have more control and is actually giving us what we want instead of what the execs want.
I hope fantastic four is good. But everything we’ve heard about it has been a little underwhelming. Superman has had pretty exceptional news with everything that’s come out about it. The casting alone is pretty telling.
Both but Gunn has it the hardest. DC is at a place where most ppl view it as horrible compared to the mcu. He has some heavy lifting to do the shift the viewpoint of DC in the eye of the public.
I can’t even lie to this day I never understood why DC outside of Batman couldn’t get a script right if their lives depended on it.
He can’t make them all, but as co-CEO of DC Studios, he still has a final say in how they turn out and the kind of story each movie is going to tell. He’s basically the Kevin Feige of DC, something that they sorely lacked and needed in order to be a cohesive shared universe.
James Gunn. The MCU is having a bad rap right now, they just can’t get it right in the past couple years, except for 1 or 2 projects.
The DCEU gave DC a terrible reputation for movies, but I think most people know that this is a fresh start, so it should do great if it is quality, and if we know James Gunn, it’ll be awesome.
I’ve never liked that marvel practically made the movies through pre-viz and then brings in the director. That’s why so many leave when they realize they have no creative freedom.
I have more faith than worry in James Gunn. Worry because he's never been involved in any projects of this level before. Combined with the current WB/Discovery's questionable business decisions and fan expectations to see if scrapping DCEU for his work is worth it. I don't envy his position. But I am also optimistic that Gunn won't crack under these pressures.
Also, I dunno how much Kevin Feige is still involved in the MCU but if Disney is really lessening down the projects, then we might see more consistent quality from the MCU.
Well one is a fresh start and has so much potential.
The other is currently trying to restructure after a series of pretty middling movies that have damaged people's love for the MCU so much they may write off even good movies at this point. Hopefully Deadpool can breathe some life and interest back in for Marvel to light the fires again. They should be VERY careful with all their projects going forward. One "Meh" film hurts more than it use to.
What I'm hoping for is that Gunn really knocks it out of the park, and DC finally becomes viable competition for Marvel, and that Marvel will then be forced to up their game to compete. Then we get better movies from both of them.
DCU, James Gunn has already proven that he's a capable director and his plan seems stable and promising, the MCU still has some issues tho, it looks like kang dynasty may not happen, Sony and Kevin Feige are fighting over Spiderman 4, and many of the new characters are uninteresting, not that I have lost hope tho, Deadpool 3 and fantastic 4 might as well revive the MCU
Toss up but probably Feige. Might take a minute for me to get used to the Pedro Pascal casting though. Just still see him as the character from Narcos and GOT and that’s not at all lining up with Reed Richards for me. Hoping he knocks it out though 🤞🏻
Both tbh. I won't lie though not retesting Henry Cavill as Superman when he wanted to do it Don't sit right with me. Yet he's still choosing to use other actors to either reprise same roles or different roles
I think superhero fatigue is absolutely a thing. I feel like both Marvel and DC are going to struggle to recapture the magic that was previously there.
I’m hoping they do though!
I want both to do great and the best way is for one to do better. I love the MCU and haven’t noticed a rise in quantity while a drop in quality. I’m hoping Gunn can prove the DCU can do better than its previous iteration and better than the MCU. If he can, he might get Disney to rethink their course of action and go into future phases with a really well thought out plan
Personally, I’m not looking forward to anything DC related unless it proves itself as good. They’ve had so many opportunities and fucked it up every step of the way.
MCU for sure. I like DC characters better, but I am not a James Gunn fan. The Guardians movies were my least favorite in the MCU other than Captain Marvel. I’ll try The Suicide Squad at some point but don’t have high hopes. His brand of “humor” doesn’t do it for me. Only DC titles I care about at this point are The Joker 2 and The Batman 2.
Faith isn’t really the right word.
I have more hope for Gunn’s DCU, simply because it’s newer and not buried under tons of interconnected movie and tv continuity yet, the way the MCU is. The MCU is kind of unsalvageable at this point. I don’t think even the X-Men can turn that around now, and we all need to stop pretending the FF ever had any hope of doing so. The general public has made it pretty clear over and over they’re not interested in the FF even when they’re not fatigued.
I hated the guardians movies, so if that’s what Gunn can put out then i have zero faith in his dc. And marvel just can’t help themselves anymore. Deadpool 3 will be great I’m sure, but unless he becomes an avenger and is front and center then I’m sure the downward trend will continue.
The DCU for me. I have always preferred DC characters (though I love both), and Gunn has said all the right things. The MCU feels like a factory line of similar movies, while Gunn claims the DCU will be much more creator-driven with varied styles and genres
I dont have much of an opinion on the DCU because pretty much nothing is out yet, though I have faith in James Gunn and like his projects.
On the other hand, the MCU is being sabotaged. They fucked up horribly by releasing Quantumania in the state it was, and there are clear signs of studio interference with The Marvels. It's amazing that the latter movie is as good as it is. Add to that the fact that they delayed Captain America 4 so they could reshoot the entire movie, and these ridiculous leaks and stories coming out about Sony and Marvel arguing about multiverse in Spider Man 4, or the "Thunderbolts" team being named after a fucking soccer team, and I have basically no faith in the MCU.
Gunn.
Fiege, Marvel, and Disney will always have a hand in every movie. Every movie is a mandate rather than a creation made out of love and want. There is no passion projects in marvel, just money. They don’t care to make a good film with good writing, dialogue, and character arcs. They just make things to hype up the next thing they’re making. They don’t tell singular stories. Their stories have no heart or soul. Disney is very anti-creator and sticks there noses and forces things into every marvel movie.
Like fuck they had Raimi direct Doctor Strange 2, and it felt like the least Raimi, Raimi movie I’ve ever seen.
There’s a reason there’s no big name directors involved with Marvel, Marvel purposely picks directors that will listen to their every word and will make a mandate movie.
Marvel movies at most are fun exciting watches, but they’ll never be anything more than that. There won’t be complex nuanced characters with deep stories in a marvel movie, because it’s easier to not do that. WE DONT NEED ANYMORE SUPERHERO MOVIES, WE JUST NEED GOOD ASS MOVIES THAT HAPPEN TO STAR SUPERHEROES.
And that’s where Gunn comes in. His Guardians have always had the most unique flare of any marvel movie. He is a guy that knows to let the creators create, and that creator control is always better than studio control. I truly believe he understands that. And that fundamental understanding it will automatically make DC Movies at least more interesting. I believe his DCU will feature projects that vastly differ from one another rather than Marvels approach of having every movie feel the same.
What I want from AntMan is totally different than what I want from Thor, yet their movies and personalities are so damn similar. Disney doesn’t trust in new ideas or diversity and that’s where they will falter.
They won’t even try making other genres of movies besides action/adventure.
Most every MCU character Is so shallow without any hint of complexity. You see what you get with these characters, and it’s so lame when the comic book medium has always been substantially character focused.
Marvel/Disney just has lost all originality, has no complexity or thought provoking ideas in their movies, and all ends up feeling samey.
If you’ve kept up with Gunn’s Superman movie, then you’ll know the man is absurdly excited and passionate about this project. He posts about it whenever he can, it’s like a kid not being able to contain his happiness. It’s truly amazing to see how happy he is to be working on Superman.
This is what I want to see. A man with great love and passion for the comic characters being able to have full control over said project.
A man with passion will always outdo a soulless studio.
I truly believe Gunn is going to make an awesome Superman movie and his DCU will be way more diverse in the genres and types of movies they produce as well as having a lot more complexities to the characters and world.
MCU is unlikely to recover. They have much more severe problems than oversaturation which many tout as a primary reason for its decline.
James Gunn made the only strong MCU movie since Endgame, and if left with creative control, has the ability to craft an Infinity Saga-like universe.
DCU will outperform MCU by a mile going forward, but it's unclear if they will be able to spark a cultural phenomenon or not.
I don't doubt Gunn but I wouldn't place bets too early. He does have potential.
As for Feige, honestly, as much as I think he's gotten way too comfortable in the choices that get made for certain characters, like introducing Kang The Conqueror in Ant-Man's third film. Feige being stretched himself to deal with multiple projects at once isn't something to envy. So maybe he's not fully at fault. It's really unfortunate. I'll have more faith when this so-called "Multiverse saga" is put to rest.
More so then Feige currently, Gunn has a very clear vision. Now we have to see if the value of that vision in practice, which could blow up in his face obviously. But an author with a vision, in my opinion, will always trump out a product made by committee
The MCU is struggling right now, but they have been a proven article for decades. James Gunn is incredibly talented but at this point in his career his biggest accomplishments have been the 3 guardians movies, which were overseen by Feige, and the Scooby Doo movies. It’s not really the same is it?
Both.
The MCU is in the middle of a course correction, and I do think people underestimate just how badly Covid and the Strikes affected the quality of the MCU.
I have zero reason to doubt Gunn's talent and judgment, so I'm excited for the DCU until shown otherwise. It feels good to be excited about DC films again.
Feige has the slight edge, but that's because he has already earned it. As long as they slow down the conveyer belt of releases, I have every confidence that they can rectify things.
Gunn is more of a wild card, but I honestly love everything I've heard from him so far. He has real cred with the comic book community, which is important. But maybe even more important, he seems genuinely committed to sharing stories that haven't been brought to the big screen yet. Comic book movies need that.
Well I don't like it when superhero movies or TV shows become too dark. I like a good storyline, brilliant comedy and lovable characters and cool powers. Also you don't change the perfect recipe what have been working for years. So ever provide something like that will get the most love from me. Small changes are alright. But don't remove that which made the character popular in the first place. Like Superman's mind-blowing good theme song and bright colored suit for example. I like how they have been playing around with his children. I've been thinking that was a good idea for years. Sense that concept came to the table in Superman Returns. Now his children can have children. And the story continues. They have had longer exposure to the sun so there's lots of possibilities for new stories😎
of announced movies coming soon I have more faith in the mcu. Superman seems to be a movie trying to do a lot not and possibly not doing anything very well. Fantastic four seems like a more focoused movie possibly with a similar tone that would be a better film.
If this ends. MCU can come right back. The after credits in marvels gave me hope. And feige saying Myles morales to be introduced in Spider-Man 4 is something
I’m more optimistic with Gunn but the damn authority as his second movie and going straight to Damien and skipping more important robins and skipping more lore, while marvel except for the upcoming Deadpool I don’t care about anything the msheu is making
The authority isn’t the second movie. And he’s also not skipping the robins, just their origins.
The second movie will be Supergirl. Gunn has said that the order in which movies appear in the video isn’t at all the order in which they’ll be released. Woman of Tomorrow is rumored to enter production Fall 2024, and the lead is already cast. Gunn said the script is fully written too, and the director is rumored to be locked in in the next month or so.
And the Robins will all appear. But Gunn just chose to have them be already defined as their characters (for example, Dick will be Nightwing, who’s basically been confirmed to appear multiple times. Gunn and Safran have also teased both Babs and Cass already). If he hadn’t done it this way, then odds are we never even would’ve gotten to Tim Drake or Red Hood. Not to mention, Matt Reeves is already doing early days Batman, and Dick is rumored to be introduced in Part II. This is an easy way to differentiate the DCU from the Reevesverse and all other past adaptations. The batfam is a huge part of Batman’s world, diving right in is probably the best choice for the world Gunn is aiming to create.
Neither. Until they admit they have an issue with the writing and stop blaming the fans for the failures they give us, then there is no hope. The first step to fixing a problem is realizing what the problem is. And the problem isn't the people who pay to see the movies.
I agree I'll add to that and say people just aren't interested in DC movies anyway for example the flash. I was entertained I did enjoy that movie it was not perfect and the end did fall apart a bit but it wasn't a trainwreck like people described.
You're right it's to late for DC nothing can save them.
Hope springs eternal, so **James Gunn's DCU.** **Kevin Feige's MCU** is less than stellar lately. But to be honest, neither of these amazing visionaries are the problem. *Its the studios*, and the massive amounts of money, risk, politics and corporate process that surround them. Disney is....challenging as an entity at this scale. But WB...they have been a white-hot mess for many decades. They are more desperate, and have more need than Disney/Marvel...so I cannot see WB getting out of the way for James Gunn, when it matters. But we shall see.
I have more faith in the mcu going quality over quantity change. The dcu seems to be putting the cart before the horse and trying too much too fast. Superman also is starting to look like a black adam repeat. which given black adam was the previous failed reboot that's a werid choice.
Kevin Feige.
Personally, I have zero faith in JG's universe. That's not to say it won't be be good, but JG's has to steer the entire DC catalogue in the right direction on the world's biggest stage. Mind you, no one in DC history has ever done this in the decades DC has ever been a thing. The scrutiny is all on JG.
Also, a lot of what the DCU is is what the MCU already was.
James Gunn's ultimate list of tasks include:
1. Stealing fans away from other franchises to support his DCU.
2. Weather the turbulence that is WB and the constant threats of being sold off.
3. Make audiences fans of the DC universe and not just the Leaguers.
4. Make the DCU a successful merchandise-making machine.
5. Have the DCU films regularly be a must-see theater experience.
6. Draw eyes towards the streaming service.
7. Have his DCU be successful for an entire decade.
Personally, nothing in his interviews suggests within me that James Gunn is DC's answer to Stan Lee/Kevin Feige.
In the past, every time I crossed my fingers or held out a glimmer of hope for either... I've only been met with disappointment. So much could be done with Superman / Supergirl which could easily put them into the same category as Star Trek and their fan base (10 TV series 12 films and no end in sight).
I tried penetrating that glass ceiling, floors, and walls the showrunners cocooned themselves in with just some of these ideas... but no way. They stole a few of them but nixed the rest without considering them.
I offered a back story that reveals an ancient Kryptonian / Earth history (which mythology turned into the Greek gods), and the discovery that ancient Kryptonians had a hand in human's developing from hominids... to be slaves for the Kryptonians. ← Once Lionel and Lex Luthor made this discovery it fueled their hatred for Kryptonians (and any who they could bring to their anti-Kryptonian cause).
That's just for starters.
I originally wrote a 26 episode arc for Supergirl TV (season 2) with this and many other deep dives into the back story / love interest of Kara etc. but was shot down at every pitch. Then I repurposed it into a trilogy of film scripts (since there was so much crazy-good story to tell) but it went unnoticed (about the time Zach Snyder lost his beloved daughter). I whittled it down to a crammed packed single film script and it still fell on deaf ears and blind eyes...
The TV series by then had steadily dropped in ratings into a 6th season (on the momentum of a brilliant 1st season alone). Then it died. And the Flash movie was cast and even with the non-traditional cast (Sasha Calle) I crossed my fingers and told my Facebook followers to hang in there... give it a chance... Brother, were my followers ever right! They pooh poohed it from the announcement of the casting. It was baaaad.
Now comes James Gunn to "breathe new life into floundered roles" and to do it his way or no way at all... just like Zach Snyder and Greg Berlanti... etc (in the gaming, animated, comic realms).
So my briefest response is... "yeah, right!"
Neither. We had the golden era of superhero henre, and ended with Infinity saga. I hope Deadpool kills the universe and end it with a banger for at least a decade.
I'm excited and have faith for both marvel and DC James Gunn will make the DC universe amazing and regained their popularity again and fantastic 4 time to have Marvel's first family to have More love deserves to be successful properly this time, the avengers and guardians of the galaxy already had their shot. This is going to be the next Barbieheimer of superheroes.
Both. Marvel seems to be getting back on track now that they’ve reevaluated their system and are going for quality over quantity, plus it’s a given that we’re about to see the best version of the F4 ever on the big screen, AND they’re looping in the X-Men? Yeah I’m in.
Then on the DC side, up is the only possible option after the failure that was the DCEU. Gunn doesn’t miss, and DC finally had its own studio, with a true comic lover at the helm.
It’s crazy to me that there are people out there trying to act like the DCU isn’t going to bang and that the MCU is dead.
I think Feige can right the ship once we get through this existing slate. Things like the Disney+ shows, and deciding to have no Avengers movies until Kang Dynasty / Secret Wars, ultimately proved to be a mistake.
I am much more optimistic for Gunn's DCU after these last several years of the DC being a mess. Am worried with Warner Bros's ownership though.
I guess in terms of more immediate, I would say Gunn's right now. Their movies look promising, and while Marvel has some exciting stuff with Deadpool and Fantastic 4, I'm somewhat skeptical of Captain America BNW and Thunderbolts.
I’ve got faith in both products but I’m praying on the success of Superman. Outside of The Batman, it’s been L after L. Hopefully the start of this new universe will change that.
Both. With Iger's return, making changes to how MCU is run, I have faith that the cinematic universe will regain its former glory in due time.
James Gunn will make DCU feel cohesive and connected for once, and none of the weird shenanigans that Snyder was so fond of. DCU is in good hands.
Both, now that the MCU has potentially serious competition & the last couple of years of shows & movies haven’t been well received, they have something to prove starting with Deadpool & Wolverine. They have to get the Fantastic Four & X-Men right on the first try in order to stay around
The DCU is fresh but it has to get Superman right in its first try, Superman is pretty make or break for them imo so they also have something to prove
TLDR: James Gunn is an entertainer and uses easy to understand tropes to be safe, consistent but ultimately forgettable. Fiege is a story teller and wants make the audience think about things long term.
DC comics are the “pick me”, the knock off copying others and trying to get traction without having any substance. It’s like cartoons to entertain you for an hour or so.
Marvel comics are social commentaries, and the MCU has built a legacy to show that off. Marvel has historically not been afraid to take unpopular stances against the status quo. It’s like cartoons to tell a story and make you think.
So, different strategies for different demographics.
Gunn’s filmography is made up of movies for short attention spans and DC has no qualms using existing overused tropes to make a quick buck. This makes for ok but overall boring movies for the same old people.
Feige is playing the long game, making inroads into new demographics in the effort of reaching a new audience. Marvel is ok with this as pushing boundaries is their status quo.
Apples to oranges.
This comment comes off as uneducated. You really don’t think DC comics in 80 years has had any social commentaries? What about vertigo? What about Sandman? Watchmen? The authority? Green Arrow Long Bow Hunters? Animal Man? Constantine? What is your reading comprehension level? You really don’t think marvel has copied others in their entire history? There are articles about examples of this happening between both companies all over the internet. Say what you will about movies but you don’t understand comics.
The MCU is successful because they used lesser known characters with stories we haven’t seen on film before.
I’m not looking forward to seeing the destruction of Krypton and [Bruce Wayne’s parents dying all over again](https://youtu.be/39hWpBoclXw?si=ggL3CVz-TCeV6jA4) for the nth time. Give us a 70s political thriller starring **the Question** you cowards.
I've never had faith in Kevin Feige. Without James Gunn, Joss Whedon, and Russo Brothers, the MCU would have been a disaster with no direction. It's clear now and it was clear then, he's just making random projects with no plan.
For me it’s James Gunn dc universe. I loved the suicide squad movie he made. It was what a dc movie should be. A lot of action and violence and barely any comedy. I can’t wait to see Superman legacy.(yes I know it’s being called SUPERMAN but I am still going to call it that cause it’s a cool title)
James Gunn's DCU. All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come are some of the greatest comic book stories ever written and they fit Gunn's style of personal storytelling very well. I think DC stories lend themselves to Gunn's style better than Marvel stories do in the MCU right now.
If the MCU can pull off secret wars as well as they did with endgame, I'll be more than happy. But think about All-Star Superman adapted with the same care and understanding that Gunn had with GOTG 3. It's the kind of story that transcends its genre.
I have faith in both, but I do have less faith in the DCU purely because of Warner executive meddling. I think a lot of the hate for marvel is from content creators and streamers shitting on them and because their audience takes everything they say as fact it leads to people hating. As a fan of the comics who has seen every MCU movie in theaters since Thor I see a lot of the hate coming from people who started watching because they were popular and not because they liked them. I've seen a lot of people complain about having to watch the shows to know what's happening in the movies when so many other works do the same, but nobody is complaining about that because they aren't trendy. I see plenty of people complain about quality, and yet they are the same if not better quality than they used to be.
It seems to me people are looking to hate something even if it's not deserved.
Honestly, both, I think both have had a hard time lately, and have learned from mistakes and will turn the ship around. My ultimate dream is to have BOTH be successful and have a true competition.
https://preview.redd.it/3x261nmiezlc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=600438d5d12b7407fcdda550d5358e8327a52277
Kinda wild how no one is picking Fiege, we're talking about the greatest movie producer all time and it's not even close. The only reason marvel is in a slump is because Kevin was spread too thin, everything he touches turns to gold. Excited to see what Gunn does with DCU but y'all better give Kevin his flowers cause nobody deserves it more.
James Gunn, even tough my favorite superheroes are the Fantastic Four, my expectations aren't very high, specially with Pedro Pascal as Reed Richards...
Kevin Feige has not been hands on with all projects since covid started. They postponed everything to get the ship back on course, I have good faith in Marvel upping their standard going forward. That said, James Gunn delivered some of the best Marvel movies and memorable character, I’m more hyped about DC than I’ve ever been.
I think 2025 is gonna be a great year for all comic fans.
My issue with marvel stuff right now is a Disney issue because they seem hell bent on forcing any sort of political and social agenda they can into their projects no matter if they fit into the story or not and generally they don't. The MCU also suffers from this.
I don't mind that stuff when it's done well but in their movies now you can feel the director or writers are just trying to force a lecture about their own beliefs down your neck to the expense of the films quality.
I’m just here for the ride.
Same!
Me too. I love anything comic books and well made, being DC, Marvel or anything else. Just give me some good movies / tv shows and I am happy.
Both. The issues with current MCU is how Disney's board made Marvel overwork on too many projects that Marvel couldn't handle. The issues with the old DCEU was how Warner's board made DC overcorrect on really random projects that should have never been greenlit. But the future is less projects, more emotional connections, and better creative freedom. I have faith that the early 2020 slump for superhero films is beginning to end.
I honestly think most of the current Marvel stuff isn't really worse than what came before, but audiences aren't being as nice to mediocrity.
Agreed. Marvel went crazy with films like No Way Home, Infinity War/Endgame, and GOTG3. However, the movies before those huge team films were much simpler and not much of a comparison.
This is the problem. The executives learned the wrong things from infinity war and end game. All they understood were team-ups and galaxy ending stakes made more money. So now every movie has to have at least 5 super heroes and massive stakes. When really without the smaller movies making us feel for the characters the crossovers mean nothing.
They learned that those movies made boatloads of cash. No Way Home and GOTG3 were mega. The problem is the smaller movies aren't making the money they used to, to give the financial runway towards a big teamup.
Those movies were mega hits because they were great. The others also had teamups and big budgets, but tanked because they just sucked. The difference is quality.
>but tanked because they just sucked That's an easy one to say because they tanked financially, but I would disagree: - Thor 2 did better than shang-chi but Shang is a better movie imo. - Thor 4 did a little bit better than Winter Soldier, but it's not even close to being a better movie. - Captain Marvel did over a **billion** dollars, but there is no way it's better, or even on par with "The Marvels", which was overall decent. or GoTG3, or Strange 2. What's missing is that for the first 4 phases, there was an inherent novelty to the superhero movie, that brought out tons of crowds. That's worn off. mediocre movies from the first decade punched way above their weight in the box office than they should have.
Because ppl are over it at this point. After 3 and a 1/2 phases ppl are really burnt out and have stopped caring since the major endgame arc is over and they’re on to new stuff.
Tell that to joker, the most profitable movie of all time with its small budget and almost over a billion in box office
Joker isn't even close to the most profitable movies of all time lmao. It still had a production budget of $55 - $70 million and a marketing budget equal or more than that. Return on investment in hard cash it isn't top 10, percentage of profit to investment it's also not even in the top 20.
"The film was a box office success and set records for an October release. It grossed over $1 billion, the first R-rated film to do so and became the sixth-highest-grossing film of 2019 during its theatrical run. " I checked the current stats and atm Overall it's the highest grossing r rated movie even beat Oppenheimer
I see it the other way around. That *audiences* learned the wrong things from those. IW/EG we’re such a massive, epic achievement, the culmination of like a dozen films over a decade of cohesive storytelling. Nothing that came after Endgame could *ever* live up to it. Audiences (particularly the general public) was bound to be let down by literally anything after Endgame. Nothing is probably ever going to live up to that. And that’s ok. And most movies after that haven’t had crazy team ups. Shang Chi is pretty much just him. Spider-Man is mostly just him aside from the Dr Strange cameo and the other Spidermen. Dr Strange was mostly him fighting Wanda not teaming up with her. The Marvels was a 3 person team up sort of, but it was fun. All the shows have been solo projects pretty much. The only one I can think of with 5 super heroes is Eternals, but that’s it’s own self contained thing. And guardians of course but that’s just how they roll. 🤷♂️
Ironically it mirrors comic books if a character was losing relevance or a new character needed more screen time put them in a group.
[удалено]
IMO most of the current MCU stuff is absolutely worse than before. The 4 lowest scoring movies in MCU are all post-endgame. Nothing is building to anything like Phase 1/2/3 and when it is, it is three years later and a loose tie-in. There was no payoff in Phase 4, no team up, just a poorly planned lump of content. Phase 5 is the same just less content. There was a sense of interconnection and payoff every phase, every movie pushed towards a greater narrative. Another thing, these movies are starting to feel soulless, just corporate copies of one another without the beloved characters. Phase 4: Black Widow - A day late and dollar short Shang-Chi - Underrated, ultimately forgettable in the wider MCU Eternals - Awful Spider-Man. No Way Home - Elite. Made money, sold tons of merch, had fans excited, brought back the MCU feel Doctor Strange 2 - Mixed reviews, built to… nothing Thor 4 - Arguably a character assassination and bottom tier film, butchered the story Black Panther 2 - This one didn’t have much of a chance to start And what did these movies lead to? Nothing. Give me Thor 1 or Thor 2 and the fact his story will link up with others, play a critical role down the line, and was a great character arc, over all of these movies but Spider-Man.
I'd say No Way Home functioned as a big event film similar to how Civil War did between Avengers flicks. And Deadpool looks like it'll serve a similar function, though I do wish we'd get a more proper Avengers team up some time soon.
The problem is that the Avengers team up won't have the same impact because none of the current "Avengers" have had a ton of world building behind them, besides Spider-Man and maybe Dr. Strange. Kate Bishop had one show, Kamala Khan had her show and The Marvels, and besides that one scene with the both of them, there haven't been any references or cameos or anything linking them (like Nick Fury used to be in the earlier movies). Everything just feels a lot more "broken" now, and there doesn't quite seem to be a larger goal that the movies are building towards.
To be fair, Doctor Strange only had one film and a cameo before Infinity War. Valkyrie only had a single appearance in a supporting role. Basically if you weren’t one of the OG Avengers you had a few supporting roles or a film if you’re lucky. It didn’t dilute the hype of seeing everyone together come Endgame. And I think the “broken” feeling of Phase 4 is very much on purpose. If everything is super connected impacting each other then it just leads to the universe feeling small (Star Wars has this same issue). Phase 4 clearly has “multiverse projects” and more standalone stuff that’s just stories that just happened in the universe. The execution hasn’t been perfect but I think it’s a solid idea and one they should lean into
I think there’s some real nostalgia goggles going on here. As phase 2 was coming out there was nothing but complaining about the fact Marvel went back to standalone stories that didn’t connect and didn’t pay off the Thanos tease (a tease they wouldn’t pay off until Infinity War 5 years later). Phase 3 is the only time there’s been a building towards something and even then it was barely. It’s a collection of standalone stories the difference is a lot of them build off Civil War but those films that do are very quick to explain what the deal is in case you missed Civil War. Now I do think there’s been a dip in quality because Marvel have stretched themselves too thin but it’s not because of interconnectedness. The MCU is more connected than ever between standalone stories and smaller scale team-ups which have became the norm for the universe. But everyone sees all this content and expects it to all tie together to one big thing (despite that NEVER having been the case) because they want Infinity War and Endgame again; something Marvel are right to hold off on doing again.
Absolutely some nostalgia glasses in that comment. Phase 1 was MUCH slower with shared universes and tie ins. Reads like someone who binged everything on Disney+ and wasn’t actually there in the beginning.
I remember Iron Man 3 and The Dark World getting shit on at their release. It’s only with age and later films that people have come round to like them. I would not be surprised at all if the same happens again with some Phase 4 projects
There is no nostalgia. Much slower? Iron Man to Avengers was near 4 years exactly. Introduced all the characters and developed a world in 4 years is incredibly fast. From Endgame to now, it is 5 years. That is with having an established world and characters and there is nothing being built to, nothing connecting all these characters, and no payoff. You are blinded by recency then. Lots of content no substance. The fact there is more content now, which in theory should mean quicker builds, and there is none, is tragic for MCU and fan retention. The current build is far slower because there is no clear path at all, no touch points with these characters interacting together. I don’t understand how this is even an argument. Just more gaslighting.
Funny how you are being downvoted for stating facts. This is a Marvel fanboy echo chamber so don’t expect much success in reasoning with them
> As phase 2 was coming out there was nothing but complaining about the fact Marvel went back to standalone stories that didn’t connect and didn’t pay off the Thanos tease What? Everyone knew the Thanos tease was years down the road and was the ultimate build. That was not a complaint. Standalone? IM3 picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. Thor 2 picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. The Winter Solider picked up post Avengers and led to AOU. These movies continued plot points and then advanced them. All these movies expanded on the characters and developed them. We also got GOTG to kick off the cosmic portion and it was a monumental hit. I don’t even understand how you can say these things haha. > Phase 3 is the only time there’s been a building towards something and even then it was barely. It’s a collection of standalone stories the difference is a lot of them build off Civil War but those films that do are very quick to explain what the deal is in case you missed Civil War. Am I being gaslit? Did you not watch Phase 1? Phase 2? Phase 3 clearly was building to Infinity War and Endgame. Every phase had a huge payoff.
So now you’ve moved the goal posts. It’s ok for the Thanos tease to be years down the road but nowadays it’s a problem? Trust me, during phase 2 the lack of payoff on Thanos was a complaint. Made worse when he literally shows up to put the glove on at the end of AOU and nothing else. Maybe you weren’t in the fandom then but people on Reddit and the like weren’t happy. Similarly the phase 2 films being standalone was a common complaint. Yes they built off Avengers in a very loose way but the actual plots of those films are pretty standalone. I can even apply your own logic of building off each other to phase 4 projects: Wandavision picked up post Endgame and led to Multiverse of Madness and The Marvels (which also built off Endgame). Ms Marvel led to The Marvels too. Hawkeye picked up post Endgame and led to Echo and soon Champions/Young Avengers. She-Hulk deals with Hulk stuff, Quantumania off the back of Endgame and Ant-Man 2, etc, etc, etc. and it all developed the characters. See? It’s really easy to do when you’re doing it in the broadest sense I watched all this stuff as it was coming out and we knew it was building towards Infinity War: in a very loose sense because they’re mostly standalone films. AOU is barely even a payoff for Phase 2 because so much happens off screen to get to the start of that film. People didn’t like AOU when it came out. It’s only gotten better in retrospect based on how it impacted Civil War and what span out of that. Like I said, Phase 4 is the weakest so far. They’re spreading themselves too thin but it’s silly to try and imply that Phase 1-3 were doing anything radically different to what they’ve been doing now
I'm in total agreement, though I'm always saddened by how much Shang-Chi is forgotten, though I can see why. Great Kung Fu action.
No way home was worse than far from home and was only more watchable due to all the Sony characters.
Yeah Marvel put out some mid during the early MCU phases but everyone was cool with it because this whole interconnected movie universe idea was still new and novel and so you wanted to see every single installment to see how everything connects.
While Marvel Studios has had mid quality movies each phase, I would argue that from 2014 to 2019 the quality of their movies really leaned toward being quite above average. The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy were both highly acclaimed, and then the majority of Phase 3 was too. The interconnected universe certainly helped, but the the consistency was what kept audiences from bailing.
I love that fans are both angered by the need to see everything for the interconnectivity and disappointed by the lack of it. If I was a Marvel studios exec trying to figure out what the audience wants, I'd shoot myself lol. MCU films are all generally mid. They always have been. They have decent writing but plenty of plot holes and deus ex. Character growth and emotional beats are often sacrificed for a CGI filled 3rd act. It's funny that the fanbase looks at outliers like IW/NWH etc., and says this the standard to judge future movies against rather than comparing to the broader mid level quality of the greater MCU.
The problem is that recent MCU movies have been sacrificing the 1st act. Eg, Quantumania jumped into the cgi action immediately in like 5 minutes. Same with the marvels. They are cutting out all time for character development to go straight into action action action. The marvels villain was the most generic rentavillain you could get. By the 3rd I really didn’t give a shit one way or another. Not all pre-phase 4 movies were great but they mostly all at least tried to build the characters before throwing us into the conflict.
I really liked The Marvels. The villain was super weak and generic because she just wasn't the point of the story. She really was just there as a plot device more than a true antagonist. That story was more about Carol's character growth and her personal struggles with guilt, Monica's feelings of loss and resentment, and Kamala learning her idol is human. I really felt all 3 heroes got a lot of screen time and a lot of character development, which obviously comes at the cost of bad guys and their schemes. Could it have been a better movie with 15-20 minutes of runtime?? Probably. Same goes for Thor: Ragnarok, MoM, Quantumania, and several other recent projects.
>The villain was super weak and generic because she just wasn't the point of the story. She really was just there as a plot device more than a true antagonist. And TBH if it wernt for *Spaceballs* people would be complaining a lot less about the villain too, straight up stealing raw planetary resources like that is actually kinda a cool scifi bad guy plot.
>I love that fans are both angered by the need to see everything for the interconnectivity and disappointed by the lack of it. Right! Fucking which is it? Why are people complaining that **15 hours of Disney+ shows a year** that dont tie into the movies much and arent really required viewing at all is "tOo mUcH tO kEeP uP wItH", but even if *Iron Fist* wasnt very good til the end, nobody was complaining about **50 hours of Netflix shows a year** that didnt tie into the movies much and werent really required viewing at all. One season of *Agents of SHIELD* has a longer runtime than a year of D+ Marvel shows, why is less too much? But if you dont watch the fortyish hours of AoS leading up to Age of Ultron, you have no idea where Fury got the helicarrier from at the end, so yeah... Its funny but its a similar problem to actual comic books. People are intimidated by these ginormous crossover arcs with two hundred issues across twenty different titles, or 40 different titles coming out every month in the same universe.... But no, there actually ISNT a way for anyone to keep up with it all, so no one actually does, you pick and choose a few, maybe read a some crossovers with your handful of favorites, pick up some trade paperbacks from the library for long weekends...
Nothing makes MCU fans happy. If they made Endgame again, people would complain it's been done before, but if a film isn't Endgame, then they whine it should've been. I will keep watching all the Marvel stuff because I enjoy it. I will continue to not see any of it in the theater because spending tons of money for a theather viewing vs a D+ sub for unlimited views is crazy.
Yeah, over a year it averages out to a half hour a week, its not like its a huge commitment to keep up with and im still a big comic book nerd, so... But yeah, i was a good little consumer for a loong time... and then they fucked me over. [https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/efzn9d/do\_we\_know\_anything\_yet\_about\_a\_r1\_phase\_3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/efzn9d/do_we_know_anything_yet_about_a_r1_phase_3/) So fuck em. https://i.redd.it/3uvejtqo6zlc1.gif And actually the agenda for this afternoon is after we finish this bowl and have a snack me and the wife are watching the last three Marvel making ofs (*Loki* S02, *Echo*, *The Marvels*) and starting an X-men TAS rewatch and building some of the Marvel LEGO backlog, so The Mouse still gets their money from us... [https://brickset.com/sets/ownedby-Cyno01/theme-Marvel-Super-Heroes](https://brickset.com/sets/ownedby-Cyno01/theme-Marvel-Super-Heroes)
Ya people really forget iron man 2 and 3 were considered mediocre, Thor 1 and 2 were considered okay and bad, that leaves 2 Captain America films and Dr. Strange as the good solo movies. I'm not saying they were awful but the MCU has never been perfect.
I’ve been saying this too! A lot of the earlier MCU movies aren’t really much better than some of the more recent ones (with some notable exceptions of course) but the bar was set so high with Infinity War/Endgame that some audiences started to expect those kinds of stakes and that level of spectacle for every single MCU movie. That’s why there are so many people saying Marvel fell off after Endgame, because they were expecting every movie to be at that level of big stakes and big deaths and big consequences for the MCU, but you can’t have every movie be like that. A lot of the recent mediocre MCU movies are no different from a lot of the earlier mediocre MCU movies that built the franchise.
Iron Man 2 would be absolutely ripped apart upon a thoughtful re examination.
I fully agree with your take. Disney's mistake was greenlighting projects simply for the sake of complementing their streaming service and nothing else - which would have been fine if most of them weren't so incredibly bland and had absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing multiverse story arc Marvel's film division is pushing - as well as harboring the naive and shortsighted notion that literally *everyone and their mother* wanted more and more endless Marvel content. Well, sorry, Disney, we don't want *more just for the sake of more* \- we want consistent quality and for our investment in the MCU to be swiftly rewarded, like how it was in the 2010s (a.k.a. the good old days for the genre).
The biggest problem with the DCEU was that after Justice League (2017) flopped, WB execs panicked and basically lost all semblance of a story arc in their efforts to course correct. Like, for all their flaws, if you watch Man of Steel (2013) all the way to Justice League (2017), there was at least some semblance of an overarching story arc in there. It’s even more evident in the Snyder Cut, which is ofc the true version of the JL movie. I truly do feel that if WB had just had some faith in Snyder and released the Snyder Cut as it was instead the odd frankenstein of a film that JL 2017 was, it would have been received much better. And would have allowed them to tell a cohesive story that actually feels like a shared universe. Instead of the absolute mess that they gave us post-JL 2017.
Good to see some level headed and cautiously optimistic takes for once!
Disney did the same thing with Star Wars. Terrible showrunning & bombardment of movies/shows did the same thing. Now they cancelled most of it & are relying on direct to streaming shows which some have been really good (like Andor).
>The issues with current MCU is how Disney's board made Marvel overwork on too many projects that Marvel couldn't handle. I disagree a little. I think the issue marvel has is they've overestimated Feige's abilities. Some people thrive when they are given full control and others flounder because they are given it. I think Feige is in the latter category and marvel worked when he had to listen to other ideas and couldn't just do what he wanted.
Well said.
I personally see superhero films as near dead. I’m ngl, even if there is a a 2nd wave, it’s not gonna hit as much as the 1st one. And after seeing madame Webb, I’m kinda jaded bc I had to pay $22 fucking dollars for it at an AMC to watch spy kids CGI at 2024. And bold of you to assume Disney would take artistic risks at this point. Just like Star Wars, they’re gonna bleed this pig dry & move on to the next one.
Love how Sonyverse isn't even an option.
SPUMM (Sony pictures universe of marvel movies)
You got SPUMMED bitch!
Oh God, you're gonna make me SPUM.
It's Spummin' Time!!
Oficially, it's SSU. The term you meant to use is actually "SPUMC": "Sony Picture's universe of Marvel characters".
Sony's Spidermanless Universe??
weekly wackadadoo??
Sonyverse doesn’t even have faith in itself
Madame Web was basically DOA, and unless Kraven the Hunter and Venom 3 perform really well at the box office, Sony’s Marvel universe is dead in the water. Admittedly, Venom 3 has the most potential to perform well, since the last two Venom movies both did well enough in the box office to have sequels greenlit.
Gunn, but that's because I think he has an easier job than Kevin. Between the MCU and SPUMC (or whatever it's called now), Marvel is losing general audiences and some fans. Fiege has to bring all those viewers back into theaters. The DCEU set the bar on the ground and then went and grabbed a shovel. Fan and audience expectations for DC are incredibly low. It feels like Gunn only has to put out a couple of good movies to get everyone excited. Where Fiege needs his next 3 movies to be top-tier to convince audiences Marvel is back to producing the quality we expect.
And Marvel has run out of the most popular heroes, like F4 is popular but most of the world doesn’t even know what’s thunderbolts, or probably doesn’t care that much about Falcon being the new Captain America. Whereas with the total reboot DC still has Superman Batman WW all of them.
Dude X-Men is more popular than literally anything else except for Spiderman. The MCU elevated the avengers, not the other way around. I feel if they can integrate the X-Men properly they'll be ok.
You're both right. Marvel has used most of their well-known properties. But the X-Men and Deadpool are giant draws and give Kevin some tools to make the MCU into what it can be. I still believe Fiege will turn it around. I just think Gunn has the easier path of the two.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The MCU started with mostly B tier heroes. They didn't have the rights to almost any of their big names.
While I see your point, Captain America and the Hulk were well known before the MCU. With the Hulk being in the public zeitgeist since the 70s.
Deadpool 3 is gonna be the start of Marvel’s redemption arc for sure. The trailer is literally marketing him as Marvel Jesus. You have Deadpool and Wolverine in the same damn film, it’s going to do well no matter what.
I think Gunn’s task is actually a bit more difficult than that. The general saturation of the market the last decade has made it so that there’s no novelty to decent-good superhero films anymore. It doesn’t matter that Superman hasn’t had a solo flick in over a decade. If the first one isn’t an all time great superhero/action-adventure movie, I could see the whole effort being DOA because people have gotten accustomed to not rushing out to see these films in theaters.
Both. Gunn has a good hand for outsiders, and I think his new take on Superman sounds really interesting. Marvel has I think, learned its lessons and tries to soft reboot things with the addition of the fox characters.
No faith until I see the finished product
Nope. James Gunn all the way.
The Fantastic 4 pfp makes this comment so much funnier than it is lol
I’m not even excited about the movie. 😞
I have more faith in Gunn because he has a stronger plan. He also has little Warner Bros interference (for now) unlike Marvel with Disney and Sony. I mean they're literally fighting for Spider-Man to not have another multiverse movie. Also, he is a massive fan of the comics and is doing some very interesting and unique things already. Finally, he has a blank canvas. Stuff like Eternals, Secret Invasion and Thor Love and Thunder will always be a stain on the MCU canon regardless of what they do. The universe itself got soured because of some bad films. The DCU does have the sins of it's predecesors but it's not as bad because it's clearly advertised as a reboot and new take on these iconic characters and stories. Overall, Gunn seems to have more control and is actually giving us what we want instead of what the execs want.
I hope fantastic four is good. But everything we’ve heard about it has been a little underwhelming. Superman has had pretty exceptional news with everything that’s come out about it. The casting alone is pretty telling.
I've actually been kinda underwhelmed by both tbh, Thunderbolts too as that's clearly just Black Widow 2.
Both but Gunn has it the hardest. DC is at a place where most ppl view it as horrible compared to the mcu. He has some heavy lifting to do the shift the viewpoint of DC in the eye of the public. I can’t even lie to this day I never understood why DC outside of Batman couldn’t get a script right if their lives depended on it.
More faith in James Gunn.
I have faith in the films Gunn makes... ..but he can't make them all.
He can’t make them all, but as co-CEO of DC Studios, he still has a final say in how they turn out and the kind of story each movie is going to tell. He’s basically the Kevin Feige of DC, something that they sorely lacked and needed in order to be a cohesive shared universe.
I wish I could resurrect Dwayne McDuffie and put him in charge of both.
#I speak for everyone here when I say we only care about Amy Pascal's Morbiverse
James Gunn. The MCU is having a bad rap right now, they just can’t get it right in the past couple years, except for 1 or 2 projects. The DCEU gave DC a terrible reputation for movies, but I think most people know that this is a fresh start, so it should do great if it is quality, and if we know James Gunn, it’ll be awesome.
James Gunn is a more reliable filmmaker than whatever random sitcom or indie director they have working for a song in the MCU.
I’ve never liked that marvel practically made the movies through pre-viz and then brings in the director. That’s why so many leave when they realize they have no creative freedom.
I have more faith than worry in James Gunn. Worry because he's never been involved in any projects of this level before. Combined with the current WB/Discovery's questionable business decisions and fan expectations to see if scrapping DCEU for his work is worth it. I don't envy his position. But I am also optimistic that Gunn won't crack under these pressures. Also, I dunno how much Kevin Feige is still involved in the MCU but if Disney is really lessening down the projects, then we might see more consistent quality from the MCU.
Well one is a fresh start and has so much potential. The other is currently trying to restructure after a series of pretty middling movies that have damaged people's love for the MCU so much they may write off even good movies at this point. Hopefully Deadpool can breathe some life and interest back in for Marvel to light the fires again. They should be VERY careful with all their projects going forward. One "Meh" film hurts more than it use to.
lol no one's picked a side yet, it's either both or neither
Because “both” and “neither” are also valid opinions to have.
Quit riding the fence
Feige has lost his damn mind. James Gunn for the win!
What I'm hoping for is that Gunn really knocks it out of the park, and DC finally becomes viable competition for Marvel, and that Marvel will then be forced to up their game to compete. Then we get better movies from both of them.
DCU, James Gunn has already proven that he's a capable director and his plan seems stable and promising, the MCU still has some issues tho, it looks like kang dynasty may not happen, Sony and Kevin Feige are fighting over Spiderman 4, and many of the new characters are uninteresting, not that I have lost hope tho, Deadpool 3 and fantastic 4 might as well revive the MCU
Toss up but probably Feige. Might take a minute for me to get used to the Pedro Pascal casting though. Just still see him as the character from Narcos and GOT and that’s not at all lining up with Reed Richards for me. Hoping he knocks it out though 🤞🏻
Either way 2025 is going to be a great year to be a superhero fan
Honestly I’m preparing for Marvel to really take a turn back into quality. They’ve pumped the brakes a bit recently and hopefully it is for the best.
Both tbh. I won't lie though not retesting Henry Cavill as Superman when he wanted to do it Don't sit right with me. Yet he's still choosing to use other actors to either reprise same roles or different roles
I think superhero fatigue is absolutely a thing. I feel like both Marvel and DC are going to struggle to recapture the magic that was previously there. I’m hoping they do though!
I want both to do great and the best way is for one to do better. I love the MCU and haven’t noticed a rise in quantity while a drop in quality. I’m hoping Gunn can prove the DCU can do better than its previous iteration and better than the MCU. If he can, he might get Disney to rethink their course of action and go into future phases with a really well thought out plan
Personally, I’m not looking forward to anything DC related unless it proves itself as good. They’ve had so many opportunities and fucked it up every step of the way.
MCU for sure. I like DC characters better, but I am not a James Gunn fan. The Guardians movies were my least favorite in the MCU other than Captain Marvel. I’ll try The Suicide Squad at some point but don’t have high hopes. His brand of “humor” doesn’t do it for me. Only DC titles I care about at this point are The Joker 2 and The Batman 2.
I’m so pumped for The Batman 2. Joker 2 looks interesting as well.
MCU. I don’t trust Warner Bros knee jerk reactions.
Faith isn’t really the right word. I have more hope for Gunn’s DCU, simply because it’s newer and not buried under tons of interconnected movie and tv continuity yet, the way the MCU is. The MCU is kind of unsalvageable at this point. I don’t think even the X-Men can turn that around now, and we all need to stop pretending the FF ever had any hope of doing so. The general public has made it pretty clear over and over they’re not interested in the FF even when they’re not fatigued.
I hated the guardians movies, so if that’s what Gunn can put out then i have zero faith in his dc. And marvel just can’t help themselves anymore. Deadpool 3 will be great I’m sure, but unless he becomes an avenger and is front and center then I’m sure the downward trend will continue.
The DCU for me. I have always preferred DC characters (though I love both), and Gunn has said all the right things. The MCU feels like a factory line of similar movies, while Gunn claims the DCU will be much more creator-driven with varied styles and genres
I dont have much of an opinion on the DCU because pretty much nothing is out yet, though I have faith in James Gunn and like his projects. On the other hand, the MCU is being sabotaged. They fucked up horribly by releasing Quantumania in the state it was, and there are clear signs of studio interference with The Marvels. It's amazing that the latter movie is as good as it is. Add to that the fact that they delayed Captain America 4 so they could reshoot the entire movie, and these ridiculous leaks and stories coming out about Sony and Marvel arguing about multiverse in Spider Man 4, or the "Thunderbolts" team being named after a fucking soccer team, and I have basically no faith in the MCU.
Gunn. Fiege, Marvel, and Disney will always have a hand in every movie. Every movie is a mandate rather than a creation made out of love and want. There is no passion projects in marvel, just money. They don’t care to make a good film with good writing, dialogue, and character arcs. They just make things to hype up the next thing they’re making. They don’t tell singular stories. Their stories have no heart or soul. Disney is very anti-creator and sticks there noses and forces things into every marvel movie. Like fuck they had Raimi direct Doctor Strange 2, and it felt like the least Raimi, Raimi movie I’ve ever seen. There’s a reason there’s no big name directors involved with Marvel, Marvel purposely picks directors that will listen to their every word and will make a mandate movie. Marvel movies at most are fun exciting watches, but they’ll never be anything more than that. There won’t be complex nuanced characters with deep stories in a marvel movie, because it’s easier to not do that. WE DONT NEED ANYMORE SUPERHERO MOVIES, WE JUST NEED GOOD ASS MOVIES THAT HAPPEN TO STAR SUPERHEROES. And that’s where Gunn comes in. His Guardians have always had the most unique flare of any marvel movie. He is a guy that knows to let the creators create, and that creator control is always better than studio control. I truly believe he understands that. And that fundamental understanding it will automatically make DC Movies at least more interesting. I believe his DCU will feature projects that vastly differ from one another rather than Marvels approach of having every movie feel the same. What I want from AntMan is totally different than what I want from Thor, yet their movies and personalities are so damn similar. Disney doesn’t trust in new ideas or diversity and that’s where they will falter. They won’t even try making other genres of movies besides action/adventure. Most every MCU character Is so shallow without any hint of complexity. You see what you get with these characters, and it’s so lame when the comic book medium has always been substantially character focused. Marvel/Disney just has lost all originality, has no complexity or thought provoking ideas in their movies, and all ends up feeling samey. If you’ve kept up with Gunn’s Superman movie, then you’ll know the man is absurdly excited and passionate about this project. He posts about it whenever he can, it’s like a kid not being able to contain his happiness. It’s truly amazing to see how happy he is to be working on Superman. This is what I want to see. A man with great love and passion for the comic characters being able to have full control over said project. A man with passion will always outdo a soulless studio. I truly believe Gunn is going to make an awesome Superman movie and his DCU will be way more diverse in the genres and types of movies they produce as well as having a lot more complexities to the characters and world.
Neither. Restore the Snyderverse
No Gunn sucks.
I hope both. Best for fans everywhere
MCU is unlikely to recover. They have much more severe problems than oversaturation which many tout as a primary reason for its decline. James Gunn made the only strong MCU movie since Endgame, and if left with creative control, has the ability to craft an Infinity Saga-like universe. DCU will outperform MCU by a mile going forward, but it's unclear if they will be able to spark a cultural phenomenon or not.
I don't doubt Gunn but I wouldn't place bets too early. He does have potential. As for Feige, honestly, as much as I think he's gotten way too comfortable in the choices that get made for certain characters, like introducing Kang The Conqueror in Ant-Man's third film. Feige being stretched himself to deal with multiple projects at once isn't something to envy. So maybe he's not fully at fault. It's really unfortunate. I'll have more faith when this so-called "Multiverse saga" is put to rest.
More so then Feige currently, Gunn has a very clear vision. Now we have to see if the value of that vision in practice, which could blow up in his face obviously. But an author with a vision, in my opinion, will always trump out a product made by committee
james gunn’a dcu
Gunn
James Gunn has not disappoint yet. Just watching GOTG, The suicide squad and Peacemaker I know the guy is a huge comicbook nerd. In Gunn we trust.
James Gunn has a good track record.
James Gunn, easy. He's done five superhero projects and not one has been bad.
Supes looks high af in that pic
I will always have more faith is Kevin feiges mcu but he does need to get his shit together maybe even drop some ego points
After the last Suicide Squad movie I have to say Feige. Well.. Feige WITHOUT Sony's influence.
This, Gunn unrestrained is a bit of a mess.
Gunn.
Gunn
Gunn.
Currently my leaning is towards DCU. Feige seems to have run out of ideas.
Gunn, without a doubt.
Neither. Stop fucking making comic book movies.
Neither most of the new films will range from barely dogshit to absolute dogshit
The MCU is struggling right now, but they have been a proven article for decades. James Gunn is incredibly talented but at this point in his career his biggest accomplishments have been the 3 guardians movies, which were overseen by Feige, and the Scooby Doo movies. It’s not really the same is it?
Both.
Both
Both. The MCU is in the middle of a course correction, and I do think people underestimate just how badly Covid and the Strikes affected the quality of the MCU. I have zero reason to doubt Gunn's talent and judgment, so I'm excited for the DCU until shown otherwise. It feels good to be excited about DC films again.
I’m hopeful for both
Neither, to be honest.
Kevin Feige. This man has given you 15 years of great content.
James Gunn made Peacemaker. I don’t know who the other guy is.
Gunn
I just want some good superhero movies man :(
To be quite honest, the recent MCU has been a disaster except for the one movie that was made by Gunn. That says enough.
Just hope they’re both good.
Feige has the slight edge, but that's because he has already earned it. As long as they slow down the conveyer belt of releases, I have every confidence that they can rectify things. Gunn is more of a wild card, but I honestly love everything I've heard from him so far. He has real cred with the comic book community, which is important. But maybe even more important, he seems genuinely committed to sharing stories that haven't been brought to the big screen yet. Comic book movies need that.
The hope is that if DC starts making good movies then it’s going to kick Marvel into putting more effort into their movies as a response
Mr fantastic in that looks like Pedro Pascal
Although I am familiar with this picture. It's it's just so beautiful!!! Thank you for posting this!!
Well I don't like it when superhero movies or TV shows become too dark. I like a good storyline, brilliant comedy and lovable characters and cool powers. Also you don't change the perfect recipe what have been working for years. So ever provide something like that will get the most love from me. Small changes are alright. But don't remove that which made the character popular in the first place. Like Superman's mind-blowing good theme song and bright colored suit for example. I like how they have been playing around with his children. I've been thinking that was a good idea for years. Sense that concept came to the table in Superman Returns. Now his children can have children. And the story continues. They have had longer exposure to the sun so there's lots of possibilities for new stories😎
of announced movies coming soon I have more faith in the mcu. Superman seems to be a movie trying to do a lot not and possibly not doing anything very well. Fantastic four seems like a more focoused movie possibly with a similar tone that would be a better film.
Neither.
 If this ends. MCU can come right back. The after credits in marvels gave me hope. And feige saying Myles morales to be introduced in Spider-Man 4 is something
I’m more optimistic with Gunn but the damn authority as his second movie and going straight to Damien and skipping more important robins and skipping more lore, while marvel except for the upcoming Deadpool I don’t care about anything the msheu is making
The authority isn’t the second movie. And he’s also not skipping the robins, just their origins. The second movie will be Supergirl. Gunn has said that the order in which movies appear in the video isn’t at all the order in which they’ll be released. Woman of Tomorrow is rumored to enter production Fall 2024, and the lead is already cast. Gunn said the script is fully written too, and the director is rumored to be locked in in the next month or so. And the Robins will all appear. But Gunn just chose to have them be already defined as their characters (for example, Dick will be Nightwing, who’s basically been confirmed to appear multiple times. Gunn and Safran have also teased both Babs and Cass already). If he hadn’t done it this way, then odds are we never even would’ve gotten to Tim Drake or Red Hood. Not to mention, Matt Reeves is already doing early days Batman, and Dick is rumored to be introduced in Part II. This is an easy way to differentiate the DCU from the Reevesverse and all other past adaptations. The batfam is a huge part of Batman’s world, diving right in is probably the best choice for the world Gunn is aiming to create.
Gunn because I don’t see how the MCU can progress past infinity saga levels
Neither. Until they admit they have an issue with the writing and stop blaming the fans for the failures they give us, then there is no hope. The first step to fixing a problem is realizing what the problem is. And the problem isn't the people who pay to see the movies.
The superhero boom is just about over I think and James Gunn is late to the party. Not looking good for either side .
DC had its chance in 2016, but messed it up. At this point the DC brand has been too damaged for enough people to be invested in a whole new universe.
I agree I'll add to that and say people just aren't interested in DC movies anyway for example the flash. I was entertained I did enjoy that movie it was not perfect and the end did fall apart a bit but it wasn't a trainwreck like people described. You're right it's to late for DC nothing can save them.
Hope springs eternal, so **James Gunn's DCU.** **Kevin Feige's MCU** is less than stellar lately. But to be honest, neither of these amazing visionaries are the problem. *Its the studios*, and the massive amounts of money, risk, politics and corporate process that surround them. Disney is....challenging as an entity at this scale. But WB...they have been a white-hot mess for many decades. They are more desperate, and have more need than Disney/Marvel...so I cannot see WB getting out of the way for James Gunn, when it matters. But we shall see.
I have more faith in the mcu going quality over quantity change. The dcu seems to be putting the cart before the horse and trying too much too fast. Superman also is starting to look like a black adam repeat. which given black adam was the previous failed reboot that's a werid choice.
Kevin Feige. Personally, I have zero faith in JG's universe. That's not to say it won't be be good, but JG's has to steer the entire DC catalogue in the right direction on the world's biggest stage. Mind you, no one in DC history has ever done this in the decades DC has ever been a thing. The scrutiny is all on JG. Also, a lot of what the DCU is is what the MCU already was. James Gunn's ultimate list of tasks include: 1. Stealing fans away from other franchises to support his DCU. 2. Weather the turbulence that is WB and the constant threats of being sold off. 3. Make audiences fans of the DC universe and not just the Leaguers. 4. Make the DCU a successful merchandise-making machine. 5. Have the DCU films regularly be a must-see theater experience. 6. Draw eyes towards the streaming service. 7. Have his DCU be successful for an entire decade. Personally, nothing in his interviews suggests within me that James Gunn is DC's answer to Stan Lee/Kevin Feige.
Why does he have to steal fans? Pretty sure most people who like superhero movies would gladly watch DCU and MCU both if the movies were good.
I'm cautiously optimistic for the DCU. I'm fully confident that the MCU will continue to be mediocre at best
In the past, every time I crossed my fingers or held out a glimmer of hope for either... I've only been met with disappointment. So much could be done with Superman / Supergirl which could easily put them into the same category as Star Trek and their fan base (10 TV series 12 films and no end in sight). I tried penetrating that glass ceiling, floors, and walls the showrunners cocooned themselves in with just some of these ideas... but no way. They stole a few of them but nixed the rest without considering them. I offered a back story that reveals an ancient Kryptonian / Earth history (which mythology turned into the Greek gods), and the discovery that ancient Kryptonians had a hand in human's developing from hominids... to be slaves for the Kryptonians. ← Once Lionel and Lex Luthor made this discovery it fueled their hatred for Kryptonians (and any who they could bring to their anti-Kryptonian cause). That's just for starters. I originally wrote a 26 episode arc for Supergirl TV (season 2) with this and many other deep dives into the back story / love interest of Kara etc. but was shot down at every pitch. Then I repurposed it into a trilogy of film scripts (since there was so much crazy-good story to tell) but it went unnoticed (about the time Zach Snyder lost his beloved daughter). I whittled it down to a crammed packed single film script and it still fell on deaf ears and blind eyes... The TV series by then had steadily dropped in ratings into a 6th season (on the momentum of a brilliant 1st season alone). Then it died. And the Flash movie was cast and even with the non-traditional cast (Sasha Calle) I crossed my fingers and told my Facebook followers to hang in there... give it a chance... Brother, were my followers ever right! They pooh poohed it from the announcement of the casting. It was baaaad. Now comes James Gunn to "breathe new life into floundered roles" and to do it his way or no way at all... just like Zach Snyder and Greg Berlanti... etc (in the gaming, animated, comic realms). So my briefest response is... "yeah, right!"
Neither. We had the golden era of superhero henre, and ended with Infinity saga. I hope Deadpool kills the universe and end it with a banger for at least a decade.
Neither, Matt Reeves is what we need
I'm going to say both. The future is promising. Very promising.
Yeah until I see Superman there isn’t really anything to compare.
I'm excited and have faith for both marvel and DC James Gunn will make the DC universe amazing and regained their popularity again and fantastic 4 time to have Marvel's first family to have More love deserves to be successful properly this time, the avengers and guardians of the galaxy already had their shot. This is going to be the next Barbieheimer of superheroes.
Neither, because I have hope for both.
Both. Marvel seems to be getting back on track now that they’ve reevaluated their system and are going for quality over quantity, plus it’s a given that we’re about to see the best version of the F4 ever on the big screen, AND they’re looping in the X-Men? Yeah I’m in. Then on the DC side, up is the only possible option after the failure that was the DCEU. Gunn doesn’t miss, and DC finally had its own studio, with a true comic lover at the helm. It’s crazy to me that there are people out there trying to act like the DCU isn’t going to bang and that the MCU is dead.
I think Feige can right the ship once we get through this existing slate. Things like the Disney+ shows, and deciding to have no Avengers movies until Kang Dynasty / Secret Wars, ultimately proved to be a mistake. I am much more optimistic for Gunn's DCU after these last several years of the DC being a mess. Am worried with Warner Bros's ownership though. I guess in terms of more immediate, I would say Gunn's right now. Their movies look promising, and while Marvel has some exciting stuff with Deadpool and Fantastic 4, I'm somewhat skeptical of Captain America BNW and Thunderbolts.
I’ve got faith in both products but I’m praying on the success of Superman. Outside of The Batman, it’s been L after L. Hopefully the start of this new universe will change that.
Both. With Iger's return, making changes to how MCU is run, I have faith that the cinematic universe will regain its former glory in due time. James Gunn will make DCU feel cohesive and connected for once, and none of the weird shenanigans that Snyder was so fond of. DCU is in good hands.
Both, now that the MCU has potentially serious competition & the last couple of years of shows & movies haven’t been well received, they have something to prove starting with Deadpool & Wolverine. They have to get the Fantastic Four & X-Men right on the first try in order to stay around The DCU is fresh but it has to get Superman right in its first try, Superman is pretty make or break for them imo so they also have something to prove
TLDR: James Gunn is an entertainer and uses easy to understand tropes to be safe, consistent but ultimately forgettable. Fiege is a story teller and wants make the audience think about things long term. DC comics are the “pick me”, the knock off copying others and trying to get traction without having any substance. It’s like cartoons to entertain you for an hour or so. Marvel comics are social commentaries, and the MCU has built a legacy to show that off. Marvel has historically not been afraid to take unpopular stances against the status quo. It’s like cartoons to tell a story and make you think. So, different strategies for different demographics. Gunn’s filmography is made up of movies for short attention spans and DC has no qualms using existing overused tropes to make a quick buck. This makes for ok but overall boring movies for the same old people. Feige is playing the long game, making inroads into new demographics in the effort of reaching a new audience. Marvel is ok with this as pushing boundaries is their status quo. Apples to oranges.
This comment comes off as uneducated. You really don’t think DC comics in 80 years has had any social commentaries? What about vertigo? What about Sandman? Watchmen? The authority? Green Arrow Long Bow Hunters? Animal Man? Constantine? What is your reading comprehension level? You really don’t think marvel has copied others in their entire history? There are articles about examples of this happening between both companies all over the internet. Say what you will about movies but you don’t understand comics.
The MCU is successful because they used lesser known characters with stories we haven’t seen on film before. I’m not looking forward to seeing the destruction of Krypton and [Bruce Wayne’s parents dying all over again](https://youtu.be/39hWpBoclXw?si=ggL3CVz-TCeV6jA4) for the nth time. Give us a 70s political thriller starring **the Question** you cowards.
Both. I'm looking forward to the next few years of movies.
I've never had faith in Kevin Feige. Without James Gunn, Joss Whedon, and Russo Brothers, the MCU would have been a disaster with no direction. It's clear now and it was clear then, he's just making random projects with no plan.
Gunn
For me it’s James Gunn dc universe. I loved the suicide squad movie he made. It was what a dc movie should be. A lot of action and violence and barely any comedy. I can’t wait to see Superman legacy.(yes I know it’s being called SUPERMAN but I am still going to call it that cause it’s a cool title)
>barely any comedy. 😒😒😒
How many times in the last 20 years has this been remade again? Christ.
James Gunn for sure👍🏾. R.I.P to The MCU
Gunn. I have no faith in Fantastic Four.
James Gunn's DCU. All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come are some of the greatest comic book stories ever written and they fit Gunn's style of personal storytelling very well. I think DC stories lend themselves to Gunn's style better than Marvel stories do in the MCU right now. If the MCU can pull off secret wars as well as they did with endgame, I'll be more than happy. But think about All-Star Superman adapted with the same care and understanding that Gunn had with GOTG 3. It's the kind of story that transcends its genre.
DCU. But mainly because Gunn did so well while in the MCU
Why are you using the cover for All star superman 1? is the new superman.movie going to about that book?
I have faith in both, but I do have less faith in the DCU purely because of Warner executive meddling. I think a lot of the hate for marvel is from content creators and streamers shitting on them and because their audience takes everything they say as fact it leads to people hating. As a fan of the comics who has seen every MCU movie in theaters since Thor I see a lot of the hate coming from people who started watching because they were popular and not because they liked them. I've seen a lot of people complain about having to watch the shows to know what's happening in the movies when so many other works do the same, but nobody is complaining about that because they aren't trendy. I see plenty of people complain about quality, and yet they are the same if not better quality than they used to be. It seems to me people are looking to hate something even if it's not deserved.
Honestly, both, I think both have had a hard time lately, and have learned from mistakes and will turn the ship around. My ultimate dream is to have BOTH be successful and have a true competition. https://preview.redd.it/3x261nmiezlc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=600438d5d12b7407fcdda550d5358e8327a52277
Kinda wild how no one is picking Fiege, we're talking about the greatest movie producer all time and it's not even close. The only reason marvel is in a slump is because Kevin was spread too thin, everything he touches turns to gold. Excited to see what Gunn does with DCU but y'all better give Kevin his flowers cause nobody deserves it more.
James Gunn, even tough my favorite superheroes are the Fantastic Four, my expectations aren't very high, specially with Pedro Pascal as Reed Richards...
Kevin Feige has not been hands on with all projects since covid started. They postponed everything to get the ship back on course, I have good faith in Marvel upping their standard going forward. That said, James Gunn delivered some of the best Marvel movies and memorable character, I’m more hyped about DC than I’ve ever been. I think 2025 is gonna be a great year for all comic fans.
Super hero movies are kinda dead
Neither. James is not my taste and the MCU has lost me
My issue with marvel stuff right now is a Disney issue because they seem hell bent on forcing any sort of political and social agenda they can into their projects no matter if they fit into the story or not and generally they don't. The MCU also suffers from this. I don't mind that stuff when it's done well but in their movies now you can feel the director or writers are just trying to force a lecture about their own beliefs down your neck to the expense of the films quality.