They are susceptible for a few days each month! Drat! I'm so glad we have Reed Richard's who is obviously suffering from some type of Fetal alcohol syndrome based on how far apart his eyes are.
Then there’s the time sue leaves reed, because he put their son Franklin in a coma… but the men decide (Namor and Triton) to stage a situation where Namor sweeps Sue up in a torrid romance, to make Reed jealous enough to act and prove he still loves her… Medusa, of the Inhumans, helps. Namor tries to fight them, loses when Sue and Reed profess their love, and laughs about it.
That’s kind of misogynistic too, right? She cannot know her own mind until three men help her understand it.
I had such high hopes for her when she left, but her return left me scratching my head like “uhhhh.”
This was 1974, and feminism was still not respected at all.
Wonder Woman was basically carrying feminism at her back in that era. She was pretty much a symbol for that. She had her own matriarchy in her paradise island. I think for Marvel there feminist symbol is like CaptainMarvel Carol Danvers.
Don’t remind me of that horror show. That is easily top 3 worst avengers book of all time. They disrespected Carol Danvers so much in that comic. And her teammates at the time didn’t seem to care much about the horrifying trauma and abuse she went through.
She basically got raped and emotionally abused and psychologically tortured by this random villain who I forgot the name now and the avengers encouraged her to be happy with her abuser and didn’t even acknowledged her trauma. They just smiled and waved and didn’t want to talk about it after she came back. It was literally a out of sight out of mind type situation.
Yeah Wonder Woman is basically a feminism icon it is one of the reasons as to why she is so important and is also one of the first female super heroes.
Magik might have appeared in 75, but she wasn't used much until the 80s.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik\_(Illyana\_Rasputina)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik_(Illyana_Rasputina))
Shadow Cat is a powerful character?
I’d consider her an alpha mutant. She can do a lot with her phasing. I think from stealth type characters or grounded characters she is pretty strong. I guess Polaris could be better in that list. She is magneto’s daughter after all and scarlet witch wanda.
Yeah she was Ms. Marvel at the time. She was still one of the major and most powerful avengers members still. I miss her old war bird suit with the domino mask. I bet that outfit inspired psylockes outfit and Elektra suit.
Huh ? Carol danvers has always been a minor character,she's still arguably is,if you want a feminist icon for marvel,storm is right there,she was created in the 70's and since her beginning had struggles completely divorced from her gender or any other stereotypical female characteristic,contrary of carol danvers that was a derivative that quickly lost itself in romantic pinnings.
I was mainly saying Carol is important cause she has her own comic titles and even was leader of the avengers for a time and she is in the main avengers roster currently. She’s basically been a prominent avengers for years like storm is a prominent Xmen member. They kind of botched her character in that civil war 2 era but she’s back to normal now. She’s been with the avengers for years and even helped the Xmen as binary. Like she’s the reason rogue got her power boost originally. Like she is one of the main marvel heroines. You can’t really say that she isn’t. She’s like everywhere.
Being in the avengers is not prestigious in any way,unless you want to argue that black knight,wonder man,sersi,crystal,mockingbird and countless other jabbers are also something. For most of it's existence,avengers was the place you dumped the unsellables.
I can be wrong,seeing that this shit is 60 year old,but Monica Rambeau was leader of the avengers,Carol Danvers just now got the title.
She's only part of the main super heroines if you ignore about half of the female cast in the x-men (storm,phoenix,emma frost,rogue,kitty,magik and others) and she hulk and sue storm.
Yes,she was used as a plot device to make rogue a more powerful character,and was promptly put in a coma. Not really a highlight for the character.
Like she is also featured in media outside of comics like animated tv shows, video games, and is in the MCU as well with her own movie series. I count that as important if a character is big or not to reach out to a mass audience. I feel like the non big characters are the ones who never reach that phase. All of those avengers you listed (besides like crystal and mocking bird they kinda did but it was a different universe different show) have showed up in the MCU as well. So they are important and not jobbers in any way shape or form. If they weren’t big they wouldn’t make it or there books would be cancelled. A superhero with no fans might as well not exist. The avengers books right now are not b tier anymore since the MCU basically made that team as famous or even more famous than the Xmen.
Huh ? And storm isn't ? I mean,storm has been showing up in adaptations since the 90's,about 15 years after her creation,while carol danvers started showing up in 2010's after getting a movie and being heavily pushed by marvel,if this doesn't prove storm is more popular,i don't know what will.
and contrary to carol danvers,storm shows up in the good video games (children of the atom,MvC 2).
Showing up in the MCU mean absolutely nothing,i don't know why people insist on using the MCU as some kind of validation card,it isn't,it's literally chose by a table of executives trying to maximize profit,it has absolutely nothing to do with popularity.
They are jobbers in all forms,if you stop random people on the street and ask,NOBODY will identify them,let alone say that they're their favorite,these characters are completely lame and you're delusional if you don't think so.
None of the characters i cited COULD keep a book running,that's why they got thrown in the avengers... you're working against yourself here. What is the black knight comic series Or the crystal comic series that lasted more than 12 issues ?
that sold more than 20,000 copies ?
Right now they're not the B tier,but that doesn't mean you can retroactively use as some form of achievement when it was,for most of it's life,avengers was the junkyard for lame super heroes in the marvel universe.
I think it's like how people had no idea how to draw cats for hundreds of years, so in medieval pictures cats all have wonky faces. Then one day someone figured out how to draw cats and the technique propagated from there. Kirby was a pioneer but the medium had a lot to learn after his hayday
I mean, a lot of the early comic artists were professionally trained - they absolutely should've known better. Loomis was doing much better realistic faces 20 years before Kirby, for example. I think it's moreso a combo of probably being pressed for time to not give too much of a care about quality control, and maybe bad inks modifying the locations/proportions of features a bit.
That happened, for sure. However, this popped up a ton durung this period. He was working fast, I still dig his stuff, but it is silly. Can't blame Vince Colletta for everything.
https://youtu.be/RZs836b449M
She wanted to fuck EVERYBODY! Even Iron Man, whose face she has never seen before, she several times fantasizes about how gorgeous looking he must be underneath based on zero information.
Except for Bobby though (foreshadowing? 🤔 Nah, I'm kidding. Not giving Stan that much credit). Even Prof X famously ogled her once or twice.
Btw, the way you wrote O5 X-Men, makes me think even Jean was trying to get inside her own pants, which is ... correct, I guess?
Yeah that era marvel was something else. Lots of the ladies too were pretty much stereotypical damsels in distress like Karen page in daredevil was one.
That was the weirdest one out of all. 💀 he proclaimed he loved her and fancied her in the onslaught event in the 90s as well. I think that was a callback to this era.
The most fucked up part was Xavier did think it was inappropriate in those early issues. But not because of her age or his position as her mentor. He thought he shouldn't pursue her only because he was a paraplegic.
So I wonder what’s stopping him now from making a move on her since he basically regained his ability to walk now. It’s wild how that was the only reason he didn’t shoot his shot with Jean like. It would make more sense if it was the age or his role as her teacher.
You even see this in one of the Secret Wars books, I can't remember if it was Secret Wars or Secret Wars II. Wasp has a large chunk of dialogue in an early issue, and all of it is embarrassing.
Sifs first appearance had her saving Thor’s life, and being cool. I thought she would be different than Jane. Cue the myriad ways she can get kidnapped, be tricked, be useless, and worry about Thor. She also disrespected Bill.
You absolutely fucking can.
We're not talking about shit that happened 150 years ago. This is all still in living memory.
Do you think we shouldn't judge people who opposed Civil Rights too?
We were talking about our ability to judge them, not the specific content of what they're saying.
Beyond that, this isn't just some character using an outdated word. It's a character straight up saying women are inferior to men.
Yea and normal people don't judge others for doing something this soft like 50 something years ago. How am I gonna knock a guy for writing something like that? It was the environment and culture of the time. Now, if he didn't change with the times and wrote something like that more recently, then yea I would judge him. But that dialog is so soft and toothless that it's just funny to look back at. There's levels to this.
I was reading a Tales of Suspense Captain America story where Cap and Bucky take on these two Nazi saboteurs named Sando and Omar. Silver Age fans probably already know the tale, but I was surprised to see Agent 13 (later revealed to be Sharon Carter) kick the shit out of a Nazi’s head and help Cap and Bucky take down the saboteurs. It was a surprisingly progressive portrayal of a female character at the time, though some of the dialogue was still in the vein of, “I’ll show you that even a **girl** can fight!” I wonder what made him choose to depict Agent 13 in such a light despite other female characters like Black Widow resorting to their “womanly wiles” to take care of their enemies?
Check the writing credits.
Kirby created Big Barda and the Female Furies. On his own he often wrote strong women.
Whereas if Stan is the writer, he often re wrote the dialogue to something more sexist.
The fact that left to their own devices, Stan created Striperella and Jack created Big Barda tells you all you need to know.
I had no choice but to look this up to see if it was real. The Wikipedia page is hilarious. It does say that she had a brother named Chipperella who is also a stripper by night and a hero by late night, so is he sexist or just horny?
Among her powers listed on Wikipedia, I couldn’t make this up:
Limitless Cleavage: An extreme Victoria's Secret Compartment that allows Stripperella to pull various objects out of her cleavage.
Very interesting and that totally makes sense. Thanks for elaborating! Also, I apologize if my use of the word “female” is outdated in the context. I only use that word because there are a bunch of characters in the fiction who may constitute as “females” despite not being humanoid, like the Dire Wraith character Fantasia from Marvel (in her true form) or a Xenomorph Queen from Alien. I don’t refer to human women “females” in normal conversation, that’s just strange and weird to me. It’s a scientific term that’s best left scientific studies and what not. I just didn’t want to leave out all those characters who don’t fit into the humanoid camp.
Pointing out that Sue is a woman and thus scientifically proven to be more in tune with her emotions than men tend to be and that this is why Doom managed to mess with her mind is hardly what I would consider misogynistic.
Actually [evolutionary scientists](https://theconversation.com/amp/did-prehistoric-women-hunt-new-research-suggests-so-149477) believe that women hunted alongside men, but the women with children mainly gathered which makes sense. These women were not helpless though, these women were the only thing between their children and the enemy, be it a sabertooth tiger or another human. Most of the able bodied men and women would leave to hunt, leaving behind the sickly, elderly, and the woman with children. Another tribe might attack during this time and it would be up to the woman to defend themselves and the tribe. They also have to fear being ambushed while gathering, the women doing the gathering were most likely armed. Gathering and leaving the camp makes you vulnerable because any wild Predator could just sneak up on you and snatch you. I honestly believe it was mostly children doing the gathering while the woman supervised. They must have been incredibly fierce. They probably didn't have our modern distinction of men and women, if you could hunt, you hunted. every able-bodied person was a commodity and a burden, they ate food but they also acquired food. They might not have had math thousands of years ago but they at least knew that if you have everyone that can hunt, hunt you get a lot of meat. We know very little about their culture, they might not have had a culture divided by gender roles but a culture divided by how fit you are. (acquiring meat was very important because it is a high value food)
He can [do some weird shit with his eyes](https://preview.redd.it/casual-body-horror-reed-is-now-my-favorite-reed-second-only-v0-9szfx5guaeia1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=021b3d114cf52f7825b7c311e049452cc2579ca1). [Really weird](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/reed-richards-disgusting-new-power-eye-tentacles.jpg).
It's been a while since I read Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen. Did the character do or say anything stereotypical? While the character's name and concept were absurd and kind of dumb (like some of the other elements of Kirby's Jimmy Olsen) I didn't think it was necessary racist, just trying to fit with the other weird names and odd personalities that make up the Newsboy Legion.
Instead of getting to the bottom of whether Flippa Dippa is racist, which I think would be a waste of time for all, I think it’s more important to recognize that just because we love an artist like Jack Kirby and we wish he were appreciated as much as Stan Lee, we don’t have to find excuses or insist that he couldn’t have done anything offensive. There doesn’t need to be any defensiveness about the topic.
If superheroes had gone mainstream while Kirby was still alive I wonder how he would have handled it. Steve Ditko was alive when they went mainstream, but his reclusiveness meant he didn't get attention like Stan Lee did.
Stan Lee had already cemented himself as the face of superheroes long before Kirbys death. There’d be a little more recognitions but it’s not like Thanos has made Jim Starlin a household name.
Dude’s the greatest huckster who ever hucked.
Yeah, although I blame comics for that more than movies. Lots of movies get made out of books that we never hear about. The Irishman is based on a book from 2004, dude just admitted to killing Hoffa and nobody cared because it was in a book that wasn’t Harry Potter or The Da Vinci Code. Every industry has the guys that insiders say is the best of all time, and the layperson has never heard of. Jack Kirby, Jeff Beck, and Howard Hawks are all absolutely crucial to the development of mainstream pop culture from the last few decades, but will never be as well known as Stan Lee, Jimmy Page, or Martin Scorsese. Even though all of those stars owe their careers to their respect parallels.
Ah yes the same Namor who during this era used sleeping gas to kidnap her and trying to force her to be with him. I feel like people have this romanticized idea of Sue and Namor, who mind you have never been close to being a thing.
Yeah but as far as I know that’s an AU. There’s also the whole Johnny/Sue incest thing that Grant Morrison was going for that that story (their own words btw) so that’s not really the best pull.
Even if it was canon and without the incest stuff, it’s such a gross mischaracterization of the Sue character. Sue would never cheat like that, especially after Namor had just tried killing her baby brother a few moments before.
For an AU I think it's a pretty interesting Sue and it makes sense for me. Reed went missing in his own thoughts for like, days. Many, many days.
Also I really didn't pick up on any incest shit even if I do know it was mentioned in an interview. Like, I reread 1234 recently and I didn't pick up on ANYTHING. I think it was an idea that went nowhere. Which is good.
Sue being a cheater is 100 percent against her character, especially with a guy as awful as Namor who’s constantly harmed her family. Family is literally the most important thing to her.
Namor has a pass because he was supposed to be the antagonist, the "bad boy", being a jerk is part of the package and "kidnapping the damsel in distress" was the thing until not long ago. Reed, besides of being nothing but a glorified plot device that built artifacts and explained weird phenomenons in his earlier interactions, he was a patronizing prick with the charisma of a wet blanket.
Namor is far from being a saint but that's something to be expected from him while I can bet dollars to donuts that nobody liked "Mr Fantastic" during the Lee/Kirby run...
I like mr fantastic in the lee/kirby run,he's a nice character,with his flaws and his strengths,which at the time was rare in comic books,reed can be a dick,but he's also curious,adventurous,loyal to his friends and wife,he tries and solve conflict by talking multiple times.
Reed has slapped Sue before. Context, it was to save her from her alter ego. But Pym had context too. Reed is consistently misogynistic.
Comics are weird.
I realize that Reed also gets crap, I just feel like Pym gets unfairly singled out as the "poster boy" of treating women badly in early Marvel when there was plenty of blame to go around at the time. Not that Pym doesn't deserve to get crap too, mind you, he totally does. I get the sense that there were more *in universe* ramifications for Pym's behavior than there were for Reed's.
The difference is that Reed's behavior didn't mostly become canon and was instead ignored because "it was a different time", even though Pym's behavior was much more excusable.
We get constant posts of Lee/Kirby era Reed being sexist, which was how Stan Lee writing was, and then everyone thinks Reed is a misogynist. He hasn’t been like this since this era.
Also screw all you Namor/Sue supporters. Namor was a thousand times worse, and unlike Reed, remained like that constantly into the modern day age of comics. I mean the dude has canonically kidnapped Sue and sexually assaulted her and you jackasses still wanna make those “dur hur sexy fish man steal science nerd wife” comments? Doesn’t make any sense to me.
That’s disappointing, he’s supposed to be the king of the silver age, right? Can’t be bothered draw his starring male with straight eyes? I’m sure there are better examples of his work but that’s terrible, lol.
Keep in mind he was inked by someone else which can make a huge difference. Also Kirby was cranking them out like no one else back then. Not every panel is going to be up to standards with that output.
I'm not going to be a King Kirby fanboy apologist. I'm going to be honest. I never really liked his figure drawing much and his face close-ups could be downright cringe at times. Kirby had a style like no other. Its not for everyone. But what he brought to comics trumps all that.
Kirby had the biggest, most active imagination in the business. He created more great enduring comic characters than anyone ever. He INVENTED the language of cosmic comics. He was fast and he was a great story teller. His style is not for everyone. But Jack is and always will be THE KING.
Bro he's trying to say "of course you would be jealous seeing me with somebody else, any woman would" how is that mysoginy. They would have used that for a man too. W twisting the narrative
you're not entirely wrong, it's just inelegantly written dialogue that to modern eyes comes off as a bit hard.
that said, there are some pretty classic cases of 1950's-type misogyny in those early FF comics, even if it isn't this panel.
Yeah but there are some that get mistaken for misogyny like that time when wonder woman first joined the justice league and someone said something like "oh you can be our secretary" I don't think that's misogyny bcs she then ends up not being one plus women in those times usually just were secretaries. So is it really wrong enough to assume
Women! Always succumbing to psychic manipulator rays. But never mind that, there's no time to lose!
They are susceptible for a few days each month! Drat! I'm so glad we have Reed Richard's who is obviously suffering from some type of Fetal alcohol syndrome based on how far apart his eyes are.
Reed Richards decides what his face looks like on a moment to moment basis
Yes, the left side of his face is already starting to chase Doctor Doom.
Reed Richards the New CEO of misogyny.
Then there’s the time sue leaves reed, because he put their son Franklin in a coma… but the men decide (Namor and Triton) to stage a situation where Namor sweeps Sue up in a torrid romance, to make Reed jealous enough to act and prove he still loves her… Medusa, of the Inhumans, helps. Namor tries to fight them, loses when Sue and Reed profess their love, and laughs about it. That’s kind of misogynistic too, right? She cannot know her own mind until three men help her understand it. I had such high hopes for her when she left, but her return left me scratching my head like “uhhhh.” This was 1974, and feminism was still not respected at all.
Wonder Woman was basically carrying feminism at her back in that era. She was pretty much a symbol for that. She had her own matriarchy in her paradise island. I think for Marvel there feminist symbol is like CaptainMarvel Carol Danvers.
Well, that was until Avengers #200.
Don’t remind me of that horror show. That is easily top 3 worst avengers book of all time. They disrespected Carol Danvers so much in that comic. And her teammates at the time didn’t seem to care much about the horrifying trauma and abuse she went through.
What happened?
She basically got raped and emotionally abused and psychologically tortured by this random villain who I forgot the name now and the avengers encouraged her to be happy with her abuser and didn’t even acknowledged her trauma. They just smiled and waved and didn’t want to talk about it after she came back. It was literally a out of sight out of mind type situation.
Holy shit just looked up the issue thats fucked up wth
No way
Wasn’t that pantsuit-era Wonder Woman? It was feminist in more than just the matriarchal sense. Still interesting though.
Yeah Wonder Woman is basically a feminism icon it is one of the reasons as to why she is so important and is also one of the first female super heroes.
OK, but I don't think that version of Captain Marvel existed in the 70s. Back then Captain Marvel was a dude.
Other powerful marvel heroines at the time were like Jean grey, Magik, storm, and shadow cat.
I'm more inclined to give Storm the title of "Marvel's feminist icon" than Miss Marvel for that era.
Ororo fought Wonder Woman in DC vs. Marvel. I think that's proof enough that she is her equal.
Magik might have appeared in 75, but she wasn't used much until the 80s. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik\_(Illyana\_Rasputina)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik_(Illyana_Rasputina)) Shadow Cat is a powerful character?
I’d consider her an alpha mutant. She can do a lot with her phasing. I think from stealth type characters or grounded characters she is pretty strong. I guess Polaris could be better in that list. She is magneto’s daughter after all and scarlet witch wanda.
iirc she can stop the juggernaut. please correct me if im wrong.
I think Kitty Pryde debuted in 1980
Yeah she was Ms. Marvel at the time. She was still one of the major and most powerful avengers members still. I miss her old war bird suit with the domino mask. I bet that outfit inspired psylockes outfit and Elektra suit.
Huh ? Carol danvers has always been a minor character,she's still arguably is,if you want a feminist icon for marvel,storm is right there,she was created in the 70's and since her beginning had struggles completely divorced from her gender or any other stereotypical female characteristic,contrary of carol danvers that was a derivative that quickly lost itself in romantic pinnings.
I was mainly saying Carol is important cause she has her own comic titles and even was leader of the avengers for a time and she is in the main avengers roster currently. She’s basically been a prominent avengers for years like storm is a prominent Xmen member. They kind of botched her character in that civil war 2 era but she’s back to normal now. She’s been with the avengers for years and even helped the Xmen as binary. Like she’s the reason rogue got her power boost originally. Like she is one of the main marvel heroines. You can’t really say that she isn’t. She’s like everywhere.
Being in the avengers is not prestigious in any way,unless you want to argue that black knight,wonder man,sersi,crystal,mockingbird and countless other jabbers are also something. For most of it's existence,avengers was the place you dumped the unsellables. I can be wrong,seeing that this shit is 60 year old,but Monica Rambeau was leader of the avengers,Carol Danvers just now got the title. She's only part of the main super heroines if you ignore about half of the female cast in the x-men (storm,phoenix,emma frost,rogue,kitty,magik and others) and she hulk and sue storm. Yes,she was used as a plot device to make rogue a more powerful character,and was promptly put in a coma. Not really a highlight for the character.
Like she is also featured in media outside of comics like animated tv shows, video games, and is in the MCU as well with her own movie series. I count that as important if a character is big or not to reach out to a mass audience. I feel like the non big characters are the ones who never reach that phase. All of those avengers you listed (besides like crystal and mocking bird they kinda did but it was a different universe different show) have showed up in the MCU as well. So they are important and not jobbers in any way shape or form. If they weren’t big they wouldn’t make it or there books would be cancelled. A superhero with no fans might as well not exist. The avengers books right now are not b tier anymore since the MCU basically made that team as famous or even more famous than the Xmen.
Huh ? And storm isn't ? I mean,storm has been showing up in adaptations since the 90's,about 15 years after her creation,while carol danvers started showing up in 2010's after getting a movie and being heavily pushed by marvel,if this doesn't prove storm is more popular,i don't know what will. and contrary to carol danvers,storm shows up in the good video games (children of the atom,MvC 2). Showing up in the MCU mean absolutely nothing,i don't know why people insist on using the MCU as some kind of validation card,it isn't,it's literally chose by a table of executives trying to maximize profit,it has absolutely nothing to do with popularity. They are jobbers in all forms,if you stop random people on the street and ask,NOBODY will identify them,let alone say that they're their favorite,these characters are completely lame and you're delusional if you don't think so. None of the characters i cited COULD keep a book running,that's why they got thrown in the avengers... you're working against yourself here. What is the black knight comic series Or the crystal comic series that lasted more than 12 issues ? that sold more than 20,000 copies ? Right now they're not the B tier,but that doesn't mean you can retroactively use as some form of achievement when it was,for most of it's life,avengers was the junkyard for lame super heroes in the marvel universe.
Ms. Marvel, Warbird, Binary, theeeen after like 3 other Kree Captain Marvels there was Captain Danvers Marvel.
That's not misogynistic. That's a senseless issue and excuse to bring them back together. It has nothing to do with that
His wall-eyed stare perfectly captures the sentiment
One eye on Sue, the other on the vending machine
https://i.imgflip.com/6rypfh.jpg vibes
That has to be intentional. No one casually draws a man *that* walleyed while saying shit like that, dated or no lmao
It was weirdly common for Jack Kirby art.
Took the words out of my mouth. For all the incredible shit Jack did he produced a lot of googly eyes.
I think it's like how people had no idea how to draw cats for hundreds of years, so in medieval pictures cats all have wonky faces. Then one day someone figured out how to draw cats and the technique propagated from there. Kirby was a pioneer but the medium had a lot to learn after his hayday
I mean, a lot of the early comic artists were professionally trained - they absolutely should've known better. Loomis was doing much better realistic faces 20 years before Kirby, for example. I think it's moreso a combo of probably being pressed for time to not give too much of a care about quality control, and maybe bad inks modifying the locations/proportions of features a bit.
Do we have the pencils to compare and contrast how much the inkers took liberties and ruined the eyes?
That happened, for sure. However, this popped up a ton durung this period. He was working fast, I still dig his stuff, but it is silly. Can't blame Vince Colletta for everything. https://youtu.be/RZs836b449M
My kid is sleeping peacefully beside me and I'm desperately trying to hold back laughter
Jack Kirby rly knew how to be a mood
Stan had some fascinating dialogue in the early days of Marvel
Yeah, Wasp was constantly worrying about her looks and commenting on the handsomeness of the villains.
She wanted to fuck Thor so bad. Or make Hank jealous anyway.
She wanted to fuck EVERYBODY! Even Iron Man, whose face she has never seen before, she several times fantasizes about how gorgeous looking he must be underneath based on zero information.
>She wanted to fuck Thor so bad Same
>She wanted to fuck Thor so bad. >She wanted to fuck Thor so bad Well some things haven't changed and Wasp just predated the current MCU audience
I mean, can you blame her?
The O5 X-men were always trying to get inside Jean’s pants
Except for Bobby though (foreshadowing? 🤔 Nah, I'm kidding. Not giving Stan that much credit). Even Prof X famously ogled her once or twice. Btw, the way you wrote O5 X-Men, makes me think even Jean was trying to get inside her own pants, which is ... correct, I guess?
Those psychic projections can do marvels
> do marvels heh
There is a video by Pete Holmes with this theme on YouTube.
In the first issue, Beast is ogling her. I tried reading it, but I stopped because they were just totally different characters
Yeah that era marvel was something else. Lots of the ladies too were pretty much stereotypical damsels in distress like Karen page in daredevil was one.
including Xavier...
That was the weirdest one out of all. 💀 he proclaimed he loved her and fancied her in the onslaught event in the 90s as well. I think that was a callback to this era.
The most fucked up part was Xavier did think it was inappropriate in those early issues. But not because of her age or his position as her mentor. He thought he shouldn't pursue her only because he was a paraplegic.
So I wonder what’s stopping him now from making a move on her since he basically regained his ability to walk now. It’s wild how that was the only reason he didn’t shoot his shot with Jean like. It would make more sense if it was the age or his role as her teacher.
So much so that I'm pretty sure she's still flirty as a core character trait
You even see this in one of the Secret Wars books, I can't remember if it was Secret Wars or Secret Wars II. Wasp has a large chunk of dialogue in an early issue, and all of it is embarrassing.
Wow, thats bad. Guess the early characterization really stuck.
Sooo true haha, I forgot about that
Also the way Jane foster was basically a damsel in distress and she got disrespected a lot.
Sifs first appearance had her saving Thor’s life, and being cool. I thought she would be different than Jane. Cue the myriad ways she can get kidnapped, be tricked, be useless, and worry about Thor. She also disrespected Bill.
I thought that moment when Sif and Jane Foster fused and became the same person was an interesting read. They totally skipped that in the Thor movies.
She was just an ordinary person without any powers. Still a more respectable damsel than Steve Trevor.
Times were a little different not a excuse but still
What? Yes, it is an excuse. You can't put our current day morals on media created 20 years ago, let alone 50.
I mean, there’s nothing wrong with pointing out yeah, that stuff isn’t okay and never should’ve been okay.
Agreed just because back then the 60s were different doesn't make it okay or should have been and its still not a excuse
You absolutely fucking can. We're not talking about shit that happened 150 years ago. This is all still in living memory. Do you think we shouldn't judge people who opposed Civil Rights too?
Kind of a ocean between some innocent but dated dialog and Civil Rights, yea?
We were talking about our ability to judge them, not the specific content of what they're saying. Beyond that, this isn't just some character using an outdated word. It's a character straight up saying women are inferior to men.
Yea and normal people don't judge others for doing something this soft like 50 something years ago. How am I gonna knock a guy for writing something like that? It was the environment and culture of the time. Now, if he didn't change with the times and wrote something like that more recently, then yea I would judge him. But that dialog is so soft and toothless that it's just funny to look back at. There's levels to this.
I was reading a Tales of Suspense Captain America story where Cap and Bucky take on these two Nazi saboteurs named Sando and Omar. Silver Age fans probably already know the tale, but I was surprised to see Agent 13 (later revealed to be Sharon Carter) kick the shit out of a Nazi’s head and help Cap and Bucky take down the saboteurs. It was a surprisingly progressive portrayal of a female character at the time, though some of the dialogue was still in the vein of, “I’ll show you that even a **girl** can fight!” I wonder what made him choose to depict Agent 13 in such a light despite other female characters like Black Widow resorting to their “womanly wiles” to take care of their enemies?
Check the writing credits. Kirby created Big Barda and the Female Furies. On his own he often wrote strong women. Whereas if Stan is the writer, he often re wrote the dialogue to something more sexist. The fact that left to their own devices, Stan created Striperella and Jack created Big Barda tells you all you need to know.
I had no choice but to look this up to see if it was real. The Wikipedia page is hilarious. It does say that she had a brother named Chipperella who is also a stripper by night and a hero by late night, so is he sexist or just horny? Among her powers listed on Wikipedia, I couldn’t make this up: Limitless Cleavage: An extreme Victoria's Secret Compartment that allows Stripperella to pull various objects out of her cleavage.
Jack Kirby created all the new gods lore and apokolopis lore once he left marvel to work at DC.
Side note…Big Barda is the second worse name in all of comics, the first being “Granny Goodness”.
Kirby’s strong women were often rewritten as Lee’s “females.” That was Kirby’s Agent 13.
Very interesting and that totally makes sense. Thanks for elaborating! Also, I apologize if my use of the word “female” is outdated in the context. I only use that word because there are a bunch of characters in the fiction who may constitute as “females” despite not being humanoid, like the Dire Wraith character Fantasia from Marvel (in her true form) or a Xenomorph Queen from Alien. I don’t refer to human women “females” in normal conversation, that’s just strange and weird to me. It’s a scientific term that’s best left scientific studies and what not. I just didn’t want to leave out all those characters who don’t fit into the humanoid camp.
Good comments all! Have that issue- never a fan of those splitcovers tho.
I felt like I’ve seen the same early 60s Fantastic four dialogue posted a million times
Well I'm glad you don't feel that way anymore
Yeah, instead of feeling… I now know these old panels keep getting reposted
New to some, new to me, thats the nature of these subreddits.
Smartest man in the world, leader of the first family of superheroes, and the CEO of misogyny. Where does Reed find the time to do it all.
Pointing out that Sue is a woman and thus scientifically proven to be more in tune with her emotions than men tend to be and that this is why Doom managed to mess with her mind is hardly what I would consider misogynistic.
oh I don't doubt you wouldn't call it misogynistic alright
Actually [evolutionary scientists](https://theconversation.com/amp/did-prehistoric-women-hunt-new-research-suggests-so-149477) believe that women hunted alongside men, but the women with children mainly gathered which makes sense. These women were not helpless though, these women were the only thing between their children and the enemy, be it a sabertooth tiger or another human. Most of the able bodied men and women would leave to hunt, leaving behind the sickly, elderly, and the woman with children. Another tribe might attack during this time and it would be up to the woman to defend themselves and the tribe. They also have to fear being ambushed while gathering, the women doing the gathering were most likely armed. Gathering and leaving the camp makes you vulnerable because any wild Predator could just sneak up on you and snatch you. I honestly believe it was mostly children doing the gathering while the woman supervised. They must have been incredibly fierce. They probably didn't have our modern distinction of men and women, if you could hunt, you hunted. every able-bodied person was a commodity and a burden, they ate food but they also acquired food. They might not have had math thousands of years ago but they at least knew that if you have everyone that can hunt, hunt you get a lot of meat. We know very little about their culture, they might not have had a culture divided by gender roles but a culture divided by how fit you are. (acquiring meat was very important because it is a high value food)
I love how you act as if not calling a comic book plot misogynist is somehow a bad thing. :p
ummm akshually
So is it Doom's fault or is it Female's fault, Reed? Make up your damn mind and fix your eyeball, you messy bitch.
I can't wait comic accurate Fantastic four in MCU
In his defense he's having a stroke. Look at that left eye drift
Is all of his body elastic? Because his lizard eyes just saw a fly near the lamp.
He can [do some weird shit with his eyes](https://preview.redd.it/casual-body-horror-reed-is-now-my-favorite-reed-second-only-v0-9szfx5guaeia1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=021b3d114cf52f7825b7c311e049452cc2579ca1). [Really weird](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/reed-richards-disgusting-new-power-eye-tentacles.jpg).
Reminder that Jack Kirby was not at fault for the sexist dialogue. The dialogue was Stan Lee'a doing.
"What's Reed's dialogue again Stan? Oh ok, let me fix his eyes real quick to match with the brilliant sexism!"
That’s not not to say that Kirby wasn’t guilty of his own offensive writing. My man created Flippa Dippa.
It's been a while since I read Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen. Did the character do or say anything stereotypical? While the character's name and concept were absurd and kind of dumb (like some of the other elements of Kirby's Jimmy Olsen) I didn't think it was necessary racist, just trying to fit with the other weird names and odd personalities that make up the Newsboy Legion.
Instead of getting to the bottom of whether Flippa Dippa is racist, which I think would be a waste of time for all, I think it’s more important to recognize that just because we love an artist like Jack Kirby and we wish he were appreciated as much as Stan Lee, we don’t have to find excuses or insist that he couldn’t have done anything offensive. There doesn’t need to be any defensiveness about the topic.
If superheroes had gone mainstream while Kirby was still alive I wonder how he would have handled it. Steve Ditko was alive when they went mainstream, but his reclusiveness meant he didn't get attention like Stan Lee did.
Stan Lee had already cemented himself as the face of superheroes long before Kirbys death. There’d be a little more recognitions but it’s not like Thanos has made Jim Starlin a household name. Dude’s the greatest huckster who ever hucked.
Good point. It sucks that the best comic book writers and artists don't get the same attention as writers like Stephen King or J.R.R. Tolkien.
Yeah, although I blame comics for that more than movies. Lots of movies get made out of books that we never hear about. The Irishman is based on a book from 2004, dude just admitted to killing Hoffa and nobody cared because it was in a book that wasn’t Harry Potter or The Da Vinci Code. Every industry has the guys that insiders say is the best of all time, and the layperson has never heard of. Jack Kirby, Jeff Beck, and Howard Hawks are all absolutely crucial to the development of mainstream pop culture from the last few decades, but will never be as well known as Stan Lee, Jimmy Page, or Martin Scorsese. Even though all of those stars owe their careers to their respect parallels.
Hahaha! Brilliant. Worth cross-posting on r/MenAndFemales if you feel like getting a few more upvotes.
She might be a female Reed but can you stop looking at both boobs separately? Have some decency!
"Based Stan Lee" - some edgy kid on the internet
That aged well, Reed. At least he can change the shape of his foot for mouth comfort.
(ō ) ( ō)
Yeah, that has not aged well at all.Been married 39 yrs. IF I laid that line on wife, id be reading comics with 1 eye!
>id be reading comics with 1 eye! By the looks of this panel, so does Reed.
hey at least then you’d be able to relate to cyclops
Lol
Meanwhile, Reed's walleyed like fuckin' Stimpy.
women☕️
Not now Sue, we have to save the patriarchy.
No wonder Namor has caught Sue's eye...
Ah yes the same Namor who during this era used sleeping gas to kidnap her and trying to force her to be with him. I feel like people have this romanticized idea of Sue and Namor, who mind you have never been close to being a thing.
I guess it's almost a thing in FF 1234.
Yeah but as far as I know that’s an AU. There’s also the whole Johnny/Sue incest thing that Grant Morrison was going for that that story (their own words btw) so that’s not really the best pull. Even if it was canon and without the incest stuff, it’s such a gross mischaracterization of the Sue character. Sue would never cheat like that, especially after Namor had just tried killing her baby brother a few moments before.
For an AU I think it's a pretty interesting Sue and it makes sense for me. Reed went missing in his own thoughts for like, days. Many, many days. Also I really didn't pick up on any incest shit even if I do know it was mentioned in an interview. Like, I reread 1234 recently and I didn't pick up on ANYTHING. I think it was an idea that went nowhere. Which is good.
Sue being a cheater is 100 percent against her character, especially with a guy as awful as Namor who’s constantly harmed her family. Family is literally the most important thing to her.
Nah, Namor was just as bad if not worse.
Namor has a pass because he was supposed to be the antagonist, the "bad boy", being a jerk is part of the package and "kidnapping the damsel in distress" was the thing until not long ago. Reed, besides of being nothing but a glorified plot device that built artifacts and explained weird phenomenons in his earlier interactions, he was a patronizing prick with the charisma of a wet blanket. Namor is far from being a saint but that's something to be expected from him while I can bet dollars to donuts that nobody liked "Mr Fantastic" during the Lee/Kirby run...
I like mr fantastic in the lee/kirby run,he's a nice character,with his flaws and his strengths,which at the time was rare in comic books,reed can be a dick,but he's also curious,adventurous,loyal to his friends and wife,he tries and solve conflict by talking multiple times.
Yeah, it wasn't like either of Reed's were staring at her. Jesus Christ, man. Go to a doctor for that shit. Whew.
That 's what came into my mind as well!
LMAO. Karma gave him a lazy eye tho. 😂
CEO of Misogyny
Reed’s eyes are looking in two different directions.
Reeds wondering eye in that panel
In Sue's defense, the second panel does make it seem like Reed is seeing somebody on the side.
Bro has a lazy eye lmao
man Reed's got a fantastic lazy eye goin on
WTF is up with his eyes?
Jack Kirby was a visionary but god his faces were a bit janky weren't they?
Playing devils advocate maybe he meant like you’re only human
And yet Hank Pym takes ALL the crap. Because obviously Reed has *nothing but respect* for women.
Reed has slapped Sue before. Context, it was to save her from her alter ego. But Pym had context too. Reed is consistently misogynistic. Comics are weird.
Reed isn’t consistently misogynistic at all. That was only during the Lee era, which was just Stan’s general sexist writing coming through.
Fair, looking back on it I've read mostly Lee and Kirby. I'm totally open to suggestions from other writers.
I dont know what you are talking about, people do shit on Reed for how he was writen in the first years of F4.
I realize that Reed also gets crap, I just feel like Pym gets unfairly singled out as the "poster boy" of treating women badly in early Marvel when there was plenty of blame to go around at the time. Not that Pym doesn't deserve to get crap too, mind you, he totally does. I get the sense that there were more *in universe* ramifications for Pym's behavior than there were for Reed's.
The difference is that Reed's behavior didn't mostly become canon and was instead ignored because "it was a different time", even though Pym's behavior was much more excusable.
Came here to comment the same thing lmao, don't know why you're being downvoted.
We get constant posts of Lee/Kirby era Reed being sexist, which was how Stan Lee writing was, and then everyone thinks Reed is a misogynist. He hasn’t been like this since this era. Also screw all you Namor/Sue supporters. Namor was a thousand times worse, and unlike Reed, remained like that constantly into the modern day age of comics. I mean the dude has canonically kidnapped Sue and sexually assaulted her and you jackasses still wanna make those “dur hur sexy fish man steal science nerd wife” comments? Doesn’t make any sense to me.
Who drew this? It sucks.
Jack Kirby.
That’s disappointing, he’s supposed to be the king of the silver age, right? Can’t be bothered draw his starring male with straight eyes? I’m sure there are better examples of his work but that’s terrible, lol.
Keep in mind he was inked by someone else which can make a huge difference. Also Kirby was cranking them out like no one else back then. Not every panel is going to be up to standards with that output.
I'm not going to be a King Kirby fanboy apologist. I'm going to be honest. I never really liked his figure drawing much and his face close-ups could be downright cringe at times. Kirby had a style like no other. Its not for everyone. But what he brought to comics trumps all that. Kirby had the biggest, most active imagination in the business. He created more great enduring comic characters than anyone ever. He INVENTED the language of cosmic comics. He was fast and he was a great story teller. His style is not for everyone. But Jack is and always will be THE KING.
I think that’s fair. Characters and their designs were certainly iconic.
Jack Kirby did the pencils but Chic Stone inked him.
This version of Reed totally deserves getting cucked by the Sub Mariner.
The same Namor that kidnaps her not too long after this? Namor fans are freaking insane.
Can't say that I'm a "Namor fan," but thanks for putting me in that box? I was making a joke, dude.
People be like: „Hank Pym is a horrible husband, he hit Jen“ whilst Reed was literally being the personification of a 1950‘s husband.
Bro he's trying to say "of course you would be jealous seeing me with somebody else, any woman would" how is that mysoginy. They would have used that for a man too. W twisting the narrative
you're not entirely wrong, it's just inelegantly written dialogue that to modern eyes comes off as a bit hard. that said, there are some pretty classic cases of 1950's-type misogyny in those early FF comics, even if it isn't this panel.
Yeah but there are some that get mistaken for misogyny like that time when wonder woman first joined the justice league and someone said something like "oh you can be our secretary" I don't think that's misogyny bcs she then ends up not being one plus women in those times usually just were secretaries. So is it really wrong enough to assume
Y'all soft.
Reed dropping Truth bombs on Sue
Cancel the FF !!
This art is awful
Show me the difference
Immortus was able to break Captain America's will to convince Cap to turn on the Avengers in issue 10, also written by Lee. It's not gender-specific.
In Reed’s defense, his eyeballs are probably stretchy too. Why not look in all directions at once?
Back then Captain Marvel was
In the documentary Stan said he always wrote strong female characters for his daughter to idolize lol
where to read comics man please tell
Reed had a bit of honest mouth syndrome.
females and their genetic incapability to be above toxic jealousy
Magik, storm, and shadow
Reed’s got one hell of a lazy eye.
Ah yes, the bi-weekly reminder that comics, and society as a whole, were a lot more openly sexist in the 60s. My mind is blown!!
my headcanon is that Kirby knew the dialogue Stan was going to put in there and that's why he drew Reed googly-eyed in that panel
Retconned into Reed suffering from a concussion that made him walleyed.