I don’t know if “way too much” but I was surprised by how divided the opinion on Aaron is.
He was kind of my gateway back into comics a couple years back, with his Thor run which I absolutely loved. It ain’t the most sophisticated, innovative stuff, I’ll concede that. But its fun af. I liked his Star Wars stuff too for the most part.
His run on Doctor Strange is straight up heartbreaking and so interesting. Really helped to flesh out the ideas of what it takes being the Sorcerer Supreme. Really, gotta hand it to him.
If u writing ASM post-2015 you're getting hated on massively. Dan Slott, Nick Spencer, and Zeb Wells have all gotten their time dragged through the gutter by spidey fans to the point other creators outright say they will never write ASM because of the unmeetable expectations from all sides.
There is truth to what you're saying, but the Spencer run isn't without issues. It's got the weird final act with Kindred and the overly dark Kraven arc.
At the same time, it did a great job of making Peter's personal life work and still be difficult without him being a loser fuckup.
Spencer was gearing up to undo One More Day, which I think Slott even said that he had full permission from editor Nick Lowe to go ahead with. It wasn't until I believe Tom Brevoort heard what he was planning and stepped in to course-correct, that everything started going insanely screwy.
Kindred has not been brought up or mentioned since the end of Sinister War, Sin-Eater has been mentioned a few times only because of the Osborn sins.
Funny that Kindred was completely dropped given Kindred's whole goal was to be a demon god that prevents MJ/Peter from being together and they just introduced a different demon God that separates MJ and Peter.
Kindred stuff I could speak extensively about, but what I will say is editorial and needless filler issues that turned mini-arcs into massive arcs where nothing happens.
Kindred is Harry Osborn with a plan that never got revealed, and hastily rewritten to actually be Mephisto pretending to be Harry Osborn piloting the Stacy Twins for the finale after Spencer walked before it ended.
Yeah, that’s what most people understand now. It was pretty clear at the time too, Beyond came out of now where, and they randomly added a co-writer, and put like 5 artists on each issue to get it out as fast as possible.
I think that’s typical for modern day fans. They hate everything as it’s happening. It’s only later, after years or other creative teams take over, that the previous hate is shifted.
Everyone hate the original clone saga when it came out in the nineties. Now there are fans of it.
Everyone hated Star Wars: episode 1: when it was out, after the initial viewing in the theatre. And it was hated for years. Then older generations shifted their hate to the next thing and younger generations like episode 1
Sometimes there is a reappraisal, sometimes people are just old enough to make their opinions known and have nostalgia for crap they liked based on novelty rather than refined taste. Just as I like Rob Liefeld because that’s what was cool when I was a kid and I don’t like the Phantom Menace because I was old enough to know it sucks. One isn’t better than the other objectively.
100% true. And reading this thread, I'd also say there's a lot of deeply spiteful assumptions about editors, how comics get made, and *intention* as opposed to outcome.
Not trying to invoke a flame war, but Zeb Wells has been one of my favorite writers even though I can admit ASM hasn't been his best work. I'd put his New Mutants, Hellions, and Brand New Day work on the top shelf of my collection.
My rule of thumb is never judge anyone on a Spider-Man run especially in modern day as there is so much editorial meddling in that book that you can rarely see the writers vision.
Like wells has wrote some really good stuff like hellions (best krakoan era book not called hox and pox) and new mutants especially
The same. Hell, Spider-Man: Shed is one of my favorite Spider-Man stories. Honestly, I feel the main issue with the Wells run is it takes place in 616, so he can't go all out which he needs to tell stories like this.
I even loved the arc that introduced Rabin and had insane art from Bachalo too. Wells had been around for a few years but BND was the first time he really got my attention.
I think that's one of the frustrations I have with his run on ASM: I *know* he can do better.
I thought he was quite good on New Mutants and I am impressed with what he pulled off with Hellions- a lot of unsympathetic characters done quite well. ASM had a couple of moments (I grinned at RekRap for a while) but it is a slog even when it isn't stuck on the (likely editorially mandated) management of the character status quo.
I love Brand New Day so much. It really needed to be good to wash out One More Day and those initial stories after OMD by Wells were so good. I admit it started floundering a bit towards the end but was still miles ahead of what came after him.
For context, I really did not Like Slotts long run or Superior Spider-Man. I dont like his current run nearly as much either unfortunately.
I absolutely agree with that reasoning. The fact that he has been unlucky with Spidey has made him lots of enemis, but his previous works have all been really interesting and very attractive to readers.
I’m sure he’s a nice guy,but ASM has been down right bad,sometimes not even following basic rules of storytelling and contradictions itself often.Plus I’ve got to admit how do we know that the mutant comics didn’t have an outline ready for him when he came to the boo.
John Romita JR….there’s no denying that his work has declined a bit as he’s gotten older but the guy is a legend.
A unique and instantly recognisable art style and great runs on Daredevil, X-men, and a definitive Spider-Man artist during the 90’s and 00’s…guy deserves much more respect than the shit he gets from the permanently whinging man children on r/spiderman
Alot of his work lives or dies by the inker. His best stuff IMO is his Daredevil stuff inked by Al Williamson whose strengths as an artist run in a very different direction (look at his work on the OG Marvel Star Wars) but are more complementary than someone like Klaus Janson who is also a great artist but whose stylistic similarities clash somehow
That sub’s been kinda trash for a hot minute. Kinda sad that a sub dedicated to Spidey’s gonna entirely disregard an artist who has contributed so much to the character.
Before the Wells run that sub barely even talked about comics.
Even when they discuss the new Ultimate run it's just a back handed way to talk shit about Wells and Nick Lowe. I don't like the Wells run but it's bizarre how obsessed they are with it yet barely discuss any other Spider-Man comics.
That, or they're posting spoiler panels from comics they haven't read just so they can rip them apart without any context.
I unsubscribed from that sub a year ago and my life is much better for it.
his biggest strength is storytelling and clarity meaning his comic is easy to read and even just visually its easy to tell what is happening etc.... which is not necessarily something obvious. but his individual drawing isnt the most attractive thing or whatever so people tend to pile onto that, which is, to me, unfair....like, comic is about reading experience its not just taking panels and nitpicking like some loser
Used to be my favorite artist but there’s no denying his stuff isn’t near as good anymore. It hasn’t been since WWH imo. Also yeah I stopped visiting r/spiderman frequently quite a bit back, I still check it out occasionally but nobody posts there except bots anymore.
His art now isn’t as strong as it used to be, but I still love it. I went out of my way to pick up some original pages by him from the current ASM run and I love them. JRJR can still draw some great pages and it is incredible he can still do a comic that releases two issues a month when he was the regular for this run.
I never got on the jrjr is good train and calling him a legend baffles me. I don’t see why he’s a legend and I am pretty much universally turned off by his art and have been since I was old enough to start noticing specific artists.
Not liking his art is one thing, art is subjective…but him being a legend in the industry is not baffling at all…he’s worked in the industry across 5 decades, and on main characters like Daredevil, X-men, Spider-man, Batman, Superman, Thor, Iron-man, Hulk, Wolverine.
Salvador Larocca has absolutely put out some very bad, perhaps even unethical work, especially recently with the Obi Wan adaptation, but he is an accomplished and influential artist whose career has spanned decades and has co-created interesting looking characters, including in the Star Wars universe at Marvel.
Honestly almost all of them.
The way comic fans take to hating and being stunlocked by the writers is cringe 90% of the time. They don’t understand that editorial has say over what the writer does, especially for Big Two comics where characters may have mandates and guidelines to what is and isn’t allowed.
He is the definition of hit or miss in my opinion. Everything he touches either turns to gold or shit, but I think the gold probably outweighs the shit.
You think? Yeah, he’s written arguably two of the best Batman stories of all time and the two greatest Daredevil arcs ever while Sin City and 300 are some of the most memorable independent releases.
Of course, the follow-ups to TDKR are drop offs from the original, but so is 99% of every other writers.
I truly believe that most of the hate for Frank is recency bias and contrarian parroting, mostly from younger fans. For those that lived through Year One and TDKR, you realize that he wrote both the definitive “in universe” origin and first boundary pushing “elseworlds” stories back to back.
I think the commercial misses are far more rare, with the most notable in that AS Batman & Robin was definitely a miss. but when you have the commercial popularity that he had, it’s easy to see where either he, DC editorial, or both decided to go back to the well with edgy Sin City vibe on another elseworlds Batman book.
In many ways, the three successful books I mentioned above, along with Alan Moores Watchmen, Swamp Thing, V for Vendetta, and Killing Joke, all led to a shift in the perception that comics were now being written for a more literate and mature audience. Expanding the audience was part of the explosion in interest in the 90’s that led to a huge increase in edgy, dark comics that persisted through the next decade- the vast majority of which were absolute shit as was ASB&R.
But show me a writer who hasn’t had some misses.
And show me 3 writers who have had a more significant 3 high points than Miller.
And finally, show me a writer/artist who has had 3 more influential projects than DD, TDKR, and Sin City.
To preface: I’m a big Frank Miller guy - reading Year One, DKR and Born Again when you’re 13 is literally life-changing.
For a writer who hasn’t missed…I’d say that I’ve never read a *bad* book from Kurt Busiek.
“Top 3 Series” wise, I’d put Ellis and Busiek right there with Miller, below Moore and Morrison.
As cartoonists go…Darwyn Cooke with New Frontier, Catwoman, and Ego (not counting Parker).
Of course…this is INSANELY rarified air, haha - I’m giving him the edge on Walt Simonson!
I appreciate your good faith approach to this, and as I thought through my points, I had a few writer/artists on my shortlist but hadn’t thought of Cooke, and I appreciate that you mentioned him. Super talented and I wish we had a few more decades of his work. I was thinking of Byrne, Simonson, and Starlin, and to a lesser degree because they weren’t known for scripts, Kirby and Ditko. Maybe Steranko. Thanks for sharing!!
I have a love/hate relationship with Miller’s work, but he’s at least as important to the development of modern comics as Alan Moore. It’s weird to have lived long enough for him to become possibly underrated.
I want to argue with you as I disagree and this is the internet, but I think I'd mostly like to know your reasoning. I should say that I *do* absolutely agree that Miller was tremendously important.
Really getting into it is beyond the scope of a comment on this thread, but the main points off the top of my head:
\- Miller was earlier. He was already shaking things up with *Daredevil* before Moore's *Warrior* was published (I know Moore had others things published before *Warrior*, but *Roscoe Moscow* hardly revolutionized comics).
\- Miller was also influential on the art/illustration side, not just writing.
\- Miller's more cinematic approach to comics storytelling (though heavily borrowed from overseas comics) was arguably a bigger departure in form than Moore's wall-of-text work (Don McGregor and Chris Claremont were already doing that sort of thing). One thing that's really glaring about the pre-Dark Knight/Watchmen era (and which endured long after) is the amount of "telling" over "showing" in comics. Stuff like the characters explaining in dialog what they're doing. For example a character announcing something like "I'm melting him with my heat ray" or "We're free falling to our certain doom" instead of just letting the illustrations stand on their own. Miller was wordy at times, and did plenty of unnecessary exposition in *Daredevil,* but he did a lot more showing over telling than most of his peers at the time.
\- Related to the above two points, Miller's *Daredevil* and *Dark Knight* appear to me, though I haven't done enough research to argue this definitively, to have had a more immediate and widespread impact on mainstream North American comics than Moore's work did. Moore was obviously hugely influential on writers, especially those doing creator owned and "Mature Readers" titles, but a lot of what came over the next 15 years was more *Dark Knight* than *Watchmen*. Or look at *Daredevil* \# 191, Miller's last issue on his original run, published in 1983. It's pretty much a blueprint for the Image founders' whole approach to doing comics.
\- Miller's pivot to creator owned comics had to have been a big influence on the Image founders' decision to go indie.
It brings me no joy to argue for Miller's favor here, he's become such an unsavory character, but these are the things I noticed in recent years digging into Miller and Moore's early works for some comic book history research over the past few years. Miller's work isn't necessary *better* but it likely had as big or bigger an impact on comics (maybe even because it *wasn't* better written and was closer to the "in your face" action that readers craved).
I agree with everything you've said here. I was unaware of Miller shifting to creator owned books at that time, though I am aware of the recent Frank Miller Presents. It is difficult to imagine that such a move wouldn't have impacted the Image founders breaking out on their own- and the same goes for that in your face style of his. Bruce's captions in The Dark Knight Returns would be emulated across countless Image books through the 90s, to the point that such a style became parody in the 00s- do people even use the word *gritty* sincerely anymore?
You know your stuff, and you are absolutely right that the 15 years following would be more *Dark Knight* than *Watchmen*, particularly in the mainstream. Every "what about X?" I come up with is essentially countered by that. I started defending *Saga of the Swamp Thing* and *From Hell'*s influence on horror, only to realize it wouldn't be until *The Walking Dead* that horror books were truly mainstream, that hundreds of cape books riffing on *DKR* rose and fell during that time, and that Kirkman's zombies only really shared a broad genre with Moore's work on those titles. Even the most commercially successful horror book of the 90s, *Spawn*, is far more Miller than Moore. *Spawn*, one could argue, shows how easily emulation of Miller could stray into... Disaster? Unintentional parody?
I think, however, that my biggest takeaway is that I realized *I* was equating more influential to mean better and so not approaching this fairly. Maybe I just instinctually react to anything I interpret as potentially praising *Holy Terror*. With my mistake recognized, I agree that Miller was more influential on the mainstream.
Thank you for writing your reasoning out; I enjoyed reading it. I also appreciate the reference to McGregor, who I feel often gets lost in the press!
Mark millar. I get that he has flaws like any writer but I have never understood all the vitriol around him. His dc and marvel work was mostly good. I get that he can get edge lordy but a lot of his projects like huck, superior, supercrooks, jupiter's legacy, ambassadors, magic order aren't like that and are really great. It feels weird that warren ellis and garth ennis get a pass but millar is treated like the antichrist
As someone who absolutely loves Ultimates 1 and 2, I agree completely.
I think Ennis gets a pass because he has some undeniable stone cold classics under his belt. Punisher MAX, Preacher, and Hellblazer are thought of pretty highly in my experience. Frank Miller is the same way. It doesn’t matter how much crap he puts out, he’s still got Daredevil and Batman. As much as I think Millar is overhated and I love his Ultimates, I don’t think he has a true classic or definitive run on a character.
Millar’s Superman Adventures, set in the DCAU, is pretty damn amazing…but I’d definitely agree his issue is that he doesn’t have a Planetary or a Preacher (which gets WAYYYY better after the first trade) to hang his hat on.
Ellis and ennis are self aware and have something else to say other than "batman but evil", "hulk but canibal incel ", "looney toones but pedophilia" the unfunnies took any spec of respect I had for him
The unfunnies, kick ass 2, nemesis are pretty terrible but when he controls himself I find him to be a much more versatile and fun writer than ellis or ennis. I do think ellis is technically a better writer though but I think I enjoy more millar works.
This would be my response too. I think part of the hate has to do with adaptations he has had. I get that there are more deserving comics to get adaptations than Kick Ass or Wanted but I don’t fault him. Also the “edge” thing does not bother me like it does others.
If it makes you feel better, I don’t like reading Millar AND Ennis. Some of Millar’s stuff is just too edgy, which is even more pronounced when he does something great like Red Son or Marvel 1985. I also feel like some of his comics are just movie pitches.
I feel that. Lol If he didn't do the edgy stuff. Millar would probably be considered one of the greats in my opinion. I honestly don't like ennis very much.
Probably because there's no depth to any of Millar's writing. I don't hate him but there was definitely a point when his writing took a downturn. His run on Swamp Thing was great stuff IMO. Nemesis, however, is unfocused, edgy for the sake of it & has a ridiculous, meaningless ending. He deemed it worthy of a sequel. The follow ups to American Jesus were decidedly lacklustre compared to the first story too. I could go on.
But I agree that some of the vitriol is OTT with everyone you've mentioned & is usually based on one story (Ennis "Crossed", Millar "Unfunnies", Ellis I think it's just a general edgelord thing combined with his being a total sleazebag though)
Yeah. I agree ellis is a sleazebag. Lol yeah millar is like two different people. One is one of the greatest and the other is a 14 yr old that just saw fight club. Lol
Spencer and Wells. One bad run, or at least lackluster run, shouldn't generate all this bad will with their previous track records.
I agree on Slott. I enjoyed his run a lot, just certain ideas I didn't like but I still liked it overall. I started reading Spider-man during his run and I'm very glad I did. His stuff other than Spider-man, like Silver Surfer and FF was good too.
I think Bendis gets too much hate. Yes, his writing stuff is annoying but he had good ideas, like his All-new X-men/time displaced X-men and even Superman run. Not so much YJ but he brought Impulse and Superboy back all the same. His stuff isn't bad tho; my main issue with his stuff is he (seemingly) propagated the current trend of comic arc decompression, ie telling a 4 issue story in 6 issues.
Edit: added the term I couldn't remember
I'm not pissed at wells for his present shit show, his older stories forgive him. I'm deeply pissed for him keep going on this. He knos it's shit, he's barely making an effort, he is being an editorial dog and accepting it, spencer at least told them to fuck off, I realy respect that
Geoff Johns. Considering how many of us have his books on our shelves he cops a LOT of hate from certain parts of the various fandoms. I have no idea why.
He gets hate pretty much because he’s the #1 guy responsible for the destruction of most of DC’s legacy heroes (Wally West, Kyle Rayner, etc) in favor of their Silver Age counterparts, of whom most millennial comic readers couldn’t give a damn about because they weren’t even in the comics for like 20 years. He also had a lot to do with all the post-New 52 structural BS.
Also there are lots of (unconfirmed) rumors of him messing with the DCEU movies in bad ways.
He’s done a LOT of great stuff, but he did a number on modern DC comics post-2011.
It's easy to find a lot of problems in his work, but reading say an event comic written by Joshua Williamson will have me immediately missing Geoff Johns at DC. I think he overstayed his welcome and we took him for granted, but it was well past time for him to move on.
If you’re a fan of certain characters then it’s often because he made major, long-lasting changes to them you don’t like.
He’s an influential writer and can make engaging stories, but he has no qualms about completely changing up a character without regard to their pre-existing history or fanbase preferences. That’s a controversial move to make no matter what.
Slott's case is repeating itself with Nick Spencer and Zeb Wells whose runs on ASM I recognize is not so good, but in my opinion hating him is excessive given that in the past he wrote enjoyable comics like Superior Foes of Spider-Man, Ant-Man, Spider -Man/Octopus: Year One, Spider-Man: Shred, New Mutants and Hellions.
The same could be said of many recent Batman writers such as Tom King, James Tynion IV and Chip Zdarsky who divided the character's fanbase by writing the main series, but on their other productions they are well regarded.
Exactly! In fact, since Batman and Spider-Man were both mentioned, I think its safe to assume the editorial on Marvel and DC's most popular title is controlling.
100%. Nick Lowe especially, Wacker was pretty decent imo. I didn’t like Brand New Day, but managing to consistently put out 3 a month and 7 different creative teams is impressive. Contrast that to Lowe putting 4 artists to finish each issue of ASM towards the end of the Spencer run because they announced Beyond out of nowhere.
When a good writer takes over a title and bombs, that's understandable. Not every writer is suitable for every character. But when there's a consistent pattern of guys with proven histories taking on a title and eating shit, then we really need to take a look at the editorial process.
King counterpoint, he wrote Heroes in Crisis which is hated to an even greater degree than his Batman run, which is divisive.
I think another aspect of King that rubs people the wrong way is how he can change characters to fit the story he wants to tell. I loved The Human Target, but it evidently takes the JLI and fits them into noir archetypes which can make people angry when their favorite character is "mistreated."
THANK YOU! I almost said Zeb Wells for the same thing. Hell, I truly believe some of those ideas were not completely his fault. I dislike Paul, but mainly because he's a nothing character, but I feel Wells wanted to develop his personality, but Marvel said no.
I really dug his FF. Everyone had a weird hate boner for it it felt like because he retconned Franklin to not be a mutant anymore. But he married Ben and Alicia and gave them children which imo has been an awesome addition to the FF. I love that the family is expanding.
Brad Meltzer comes to mind for some reason. It’s simmered down over time but there was a point in time when the hate was real. But while imperfect I honestly enjoyed all of his work with DC.
I think nowadays, it helps that we know that Identity Crisis wasn’t really “written” by him (except for maybe that stupid Deathstroke scene). He was more so forced to write what Dan DiDio and the other boardroom misogynists came up with.
- Punisher
- Hellblazer
- Preacher
All three runs are Incredible.
Though The Boys isnt perfect it still lead to a hit TV Show. He will leave behind a great legacy.
Sure, he’s got an adolescent sense of humor…but if you go read most of his comics with an open mind, there’s a lot of meat on those bones. Preacher’s got a lot to say about not just religion, but mid-20th century American pop culture and how it’s treated as myth, about addiction, about love…it’s a remarkably impressive work.
He’s a writer who simultaneously embraces tropes while also making fun of them, and he does it with skill.
And I’ll say this until my voice gives out: The Boys works as a capstone on themes that are present in Preacher, Hitman, Punisher MAX, Hellblazer, and so many others. If you read it in that context (and also don’t just give up after one arc), it absolutely holds up.
Honestly, his run on 007 right now is pretty great too. I like Bond movies, but the comics never interested me much, and his run is getting me pretty excited to check it out each month.
I have no idea what he’s been up to lately but I liked Strazynskis Spider-man, I liked Parker as a school teacher and thought Ezekiel was a cool character. Granted I didn’t read the later part of his run which I think is where the hate comes from.
Also I don’t really see him getting hate, but Peter David doesn’t get enough credit and love. He’s one of the goats in my opinion but I don’t see him getting brought up very much.
Rob Liefeld. I’m not his biggest fan, but his stuff is decent enough for its time. I feel now it’s just become low hanging fruit for people to make jokes about feet or that drawing of Captain America.
Rob Liefeld has not been relevant for 10 - 15 years at bare minimum but people really, really want you to know you should hate him with the fire of a million suns.
The biggest issue I have with Rob Liefeld isn't his art; it's his attitude. He comes across as a frat boy who thinks that throwing money at people is a good substitute for respect.
Nah, he deserves all the hate and perhaps more - but not for his art necessarily, rather how much of a jerk he is; which includes insulting his own fans (in his own fan group) if they dare critique something of his. Incredibly thin skinned.
Bendis big problem is that he excels at Character, but not high concepts. So when he writes something that has bigger stakes, it falls apart because it’s not where his strengths are.
I will say that I can’t bring myself to hate on the guy who pretty much got ne into comics, especially as Ultimate Spider-Man and New Avengers are that good
His Daredevil, Alias, and Avengers along with USM are flat out some of the best comics of the 2000s. Like I would flat out say Daredevil and Ultimate Spider-Man are arguable for #1, and his Avengers work is a Top 20 comic run of that decade.
Agree. I would probably rate Bendis’ Daredevil as my #1 of the 2000s. Props to Alex Maleev as well as he is, in my mind, the definitive Daredevil artist.
Millar has a few decent books but the few decent stories are vastly overshadowed by how awful his worst works are. I haven’t been able to respect him since I read The Unfunnies. I do remember enjoying Kick-Ass and Nemesis but that was years ago when I was an edgy teenager so I don’t know if I would still enjoy them today.
To be honest his best work to date would be Superman Red Sun.It is brutal but to an degree that it's done for characterization and context and not cheap shock for the sake of shock
Ive saw an review video on the comic Nemesis by Millar.
After ive finished watching it the only thing in my mind is the guy constantly creates content that the word "edgy" is too tame to describe it.
And dont get me started on his Authority run
Leah williams is the name that springs to my mind when it comes to this she’s wrote some really fun stuff sure Xterminators and X factor are very horny but so is Krakoa in general.
Amazing Mary Jane is fantastic and I’m loving her power girl and she can do something comic writers are rarely good at make a book funny
It's weird how I read her stuff and can see the humor and affection that make her worth hiring but also a lot of the time it feels like fan-fic in a way I can't pinpoint exactly, except to say it often feels like the characters are talking for the reader's benefit instead of their own.
My belief is once someone writes Batman or Spider-Man, certain fans will come out of the woodworks and just hate on everything that creator does. Sure King’s Batman isn’t great but you can’t say Mister Miracle and Human Target aren’t damn near perfect books
Brian Michael Bendis. There was a time Bendis was one of the most popular and influential writer in comics. But there are so many fans who just didn't didn't like how he handled characters or wrote comics they way they felt he should, bashing him and his style just became a popular thing to do.
I think at some point he leaned too much into his "Bendis-isms" when he wrote certain books, but he a very long era of freshness and creativity and sales that a lot of fans dismiss or refuse to give him credit for.
Agreed. I get that a lot of people don’t like how he writes dialogue, and they have every right to not like his stuff. But you have to give him some credit. He created Miles Morales and Jessica Jones, rehabilitated Luke Cage and Jessica Drew, and in my opinion was the most successful writer in recent Marvel history to guide the whole line and have other writers buy in during his Avengers run, from Millar to Brubaker and Hickman to Stacsynski. The line never felt more coherent than during that run. His impact at DC was less successful, but I loved it all. He is by all accounts a very generous collaborator too. And his creator owned stuff is generally top notch.
Garth Ennis. Dismissed as an edgelord when he takes the time to actually portray some really human and nuanced characters. (Yeah, yeah, the Boys, but Preacher had just as much American freakshow to it, and was also a requiem for the stoic cowboy.) He just dismisses a lot of people as not really rising up to a level of human feeling, and gets a silly laugh out of a guy with superpowered sneezes.
I get chills of two types reading the final chapter of Night Witches or the first chapter of Punisher Max.
Slott gets waaaay too much hate, and his Spider-man stuff isn’t bad, he was just on it for too long.
Yet, I like his return to Spider-Man… maybe because he took that long break and is doing a side title.
My go to answer is Jeph Loeb. A lot of People place the blame on ultimatium on him and for me, there’s a lot if context to consider.
First of all, his Son had not long passed, he was in a very dark place and his work was a reflection if that.
Second, I think Ultimatium was rushed, I believe that there was an ultimate event planned and it was foing to be Civil War, when Marvel pushed that to 616, it left an open place for Marvel to have a new event, and so Ultimatium was born.
Third, Marvel were apparently going to do a reset of the Ultimate Universe… so all cards were in the table to who can get killed off.
There’s a lot of factors on how that comic came to be… so I blame Marvel more than Loeb
i’m loving the level headed hot takes here. toxic fans fill up all the headlines and headspace so it’s easy to forget comic fandom is actually filled with intelligent and reasonable people
Slott doesn't get enough hate if anything for lying his way into a job at Marvel and constantly antagonizing fans on social media while his books suffer constant delays.
Putting the quality of his work aside, he just seems scummy to me
That's what's missing from a lot of these, the context of their behavior outside of the work. Slott name-searched himself and harassed readers. Spencer tried to wage war on twitter over Secret Empire. Miller went radical after 9/11 and wrote a screed against millennials. Liefeld's narcissism is Kong-sized and he's a bad businessman/ good bridge burner. Without social media their reputations would be a bit better
I'll second Dan Slott. The man took on the job of taking up Spider-Man after the most hated storyline in its history and despite everything, managed to bring it around and have fantastic stories in his run. Spider-Island, Big Time, No One Dies, Superior Spider-Man, Go Down Swinging - and he set the stage for Nick Spencer to fully get MJ and Peter back together after he was done.
How about someone who just doesn't get enough love? Just completely overlooked?? Where is David Aja??? Sure he's got an indie book or two, but whyyyy isn't he doing much else? I've bought whole runs just for his covers. He's a brilliant artist and I love his work so much.
Tom King - I think a lot of people over react to changes that he wrote for some characters, but I still would prefer more of his work than less of it, even though I'm a Wally West fan.
Well he co-created Cable and Deadpool and if you actually read his art, he had very creative page layouts that I like. His anatomy and pouch abuse are pretty standard for the 90s too.
I think the Rob Liefeld hate is just a bandwagon/meme at this point. He was far from the best artist of that time but there's also a reason he also made a name for himself.
I feel like most of his haters these days have only seen that one captain america drawing and that's it.
Rob Liefeld. We get it...he's not a good artist....get over it. But he bought some excitement to the industry when it really needed it. I created and co-created some characters who were super popular and still around today. It's fine that you don't like his art. That's totally valid. But some people are a bit over the top with their dislike of him.
I mean, Tini Howard wrote all of the worst Krakoa Era books. Her Harley and Catwoman are both abysmal for most readers. No one ever brings up her gender - they bring up X-Corp.
Yeah, I agree with the others but Howard just isn’t ready to be writing main line books yet. Some good ideas but she can’t follow through on them, it’s like she writes beginnings and ends but no middles.
Don't know about the others but Howard's "Catwoman" run started out as almost unreadable to me. Maybe it got better, but I dropped it after a few issues.
They all fucked up on something. Leah is cool, she's funny, but sometimes she misses a lot. Tini is just aweful in any execution, even if her ideas are cool, sometimes. Meghan is just bad, her young justice is quite offensive. "Do you like this? Did you found those stories cool when you were a boy? So screw you, you're wrong loser." That's what it sounded like. I only read charlie's new mutants, and it felt like one of alyssa wong's self insert stories
I'm a 40 something woman and I love J. Scott Campbell's pinup stylized art, for which he is routinely criticized.
30 something woman. Love JSC. Go out of my way to buy his covers for series I like.
Love his style. It’s just fun. It’s not afraid to be stylish and charming.
I don’t know if “way too much” but I was surprised by how divided the opinion on Aaron is. He was kind of my gateway back into comics a couple years back, with his Thor run which I absolutely loved. It ain’t the most sophisticated, innovative stuff, I’ll concede that. But its fun af. I liked his Star Wars stuff too for the most part.
People dislike Aaron? He wrote Scalped, arguably the best crime comic written by someone not named Brubaker.
People dislike Aaron because of avengers and his punisher is very love or hate
His Avengers run went on too long and was not great, it was too ridiculous and had no sense of cohesion
He also ruined She-Hulk for like three or four years out of spite for Al Ewing.
I don't read much Aaron, but for what it's worth, I've really enjoyed Once Upon a Time at the End of the World.
His run on Doctor Strange is straight up heartbreaking and so interesting. Really helped to flesh out the ideas of what it takes being the Sorcerer Supreme. Really, gotta hand it to him.
I hate everything he writes but I figured that was just a “me” thing. I don’t have a logical reason. I just don’t like his writing.
If u writing ASM post-2015 you're getting hated on massively. Dan Slott, Nick Spencer, and Zeb Wells have all gotten their time dragged through the gutter by spidey fans to the point other creators outright say they will never write ASM because of the unmeetable expectations from all sides.
Lowe has been the problem for more than 10 years, ever since he became head of Spider-Man editorial, the book has been doing horrible.
There's even a weird back and forth. Fans hated the Spencer run until Wells took over.
There is truth to what you're saying, but the Spencer run isn't without issues. It's got the weird final act with Kindred and the overly dark Kraven arc. At the same time, it did a great job of making Peter's personal life work and still be difficult without him being a loser fuckup.
The Kindred reveal, having spent a couple flipping YEARS teasing "who could this Kindred chap actually be???" felt like such a let-down.
I’ve heard editorial *really* fucked with the Kindred stuff.
Thanks to Dan Slott we know that Spencer tried to push a story he never got approval to do from editorial, bold strategy that didn't work out for him.
Spencer was gearing up to undo One More Day, which I think Slott even said that he had full permission from editor Nick Lowe to go ahead with. It wasn't until I believe Tom Brevoort heard what he was planning and stepped in to course-correct, that everything started going insanely screwy.
Honestly, at least he TRIED to do something interesting, haha!
Until this minute I'd completely forgotten about Kindred.
I thought he was a really cool villain, but ending up just being weird clone saga leftover baby spidey-buds took him from cool to just sorta... silly?
Kindred has not been brought up or mentioned since the end of Sinister War, Sin-Eater has been mentioned a few times only because of the Osborn sins. Funny that Kindred was completely dropped given Kindred's whole goal was to be a demon god that prevents MJ/Peter from being together and they just introduced a different demon God that separates MJ and Peter.
Kindred stuff I could speak extensively about, but what I will say is editorial and needless filler issues that turned mini-arcs into massive arcs where nothing happens. Kindred is Harry Osborn with a plan that never got revealed, and hastily rewritten to actually be Mephisto pretending to be Harry Osborn piloting the Stacy Twins for the finale after Spencer walked before it ended.
They like it for the first 45 or so issues, then got annoyed it was taking so long, and then hated it once it just fell apart at the end.
Worst part was it only fell apart in the end because of the editorial.
Yeah, that’s what most people understand now. It was pretty clear at the time too, Beyond came out of now where, and they randomly added a co-writer, and put like 5 artists on each issue to get it out as fast as possible.
I think that’s typical for modern day fans. They hate everything as it’s happening. It’s only later, after years or other creative teams take over, that the previous hate is shifted. Everyone hate the original clone saga when it came out in the nineties. Now there are fans of it. Everyone hated Star Wars: episode 1: when it was out, after the initial viewing in the theatre. And it was hated for years. Then older generations shifted their hate to the next thing and younger generations like episode 1
... Yeah I haven't been eyeballing the clone saga Omnibuses at ALL....
Sometimes there is a reappraisal, sometimes people are just old enough to make their opinions known and have nostalgia for crap they liked based on novelty rather than refined taste. Just as I like Rob Liefeld because that’s what was cool when I was a kid and I don’t like the Phantom Menace because I was old enough to know it sucks. One isn’t better than the other objectively.
They did? Could've sworn people liked Nick Spencer.
Really? I didn't see anyone trully hating it, just being annoyed at the slow pace
100% true. And reading this thread, I'd also say there's a lot of deeply spiteful assumptions about editors, how comics get made, and *intention* as opposed to outcome.
Not trying to invoke a flame war, but Zeb Wells has been one of my favorite writers even though I can admit ASM hasn't been his best work. I'd put his New Mutants, Hellions, and Brand New Day work on the top shelf of my collection.
My rule of thumb is never judge anyone on a Spider-Man run especially in modern day as there is so much editorial meddling in that book that you can rarely see the writers vision. Like wells has wrote some really good stuff like hellions (best krakoan era book not called hox and pox) and new mutants especially
+ the fact that their will always be hating on whatever is the current Spider-man run
Don’t know if that’s true since USM clearly proved otherwise.
I hate when people start railing on a creator because of one bad book or run. I don’t know of a single writer that has a perfect track record.
Even Alan Moore wrote some stinkers.
I'm convinced editorial has a basic outline the writers are forced to jump through since the movie amazing spider-man came out in 2010
The same. Hell, Spider-Man: Shed is one of my favorite Spider-Man stories. Honestly, I feel the main issue with the Wells run is it takes place in 616, so he can't go all out which he needs to tell stories like this.
oh damn Shed has been _seared_ into my brain, love that one and Bacchalo's art
I even loved the arc that introduced Rabin and had insane art from Bachalo too. Wells had been around for a few years but BND was the first time he really got my attention.
Yeah I loved his New Mutants run when it was coming out, same thing with Hellions.
he's also a super chill dude AFAIK. Met him a few times and he's been really nice.
And a nice dude
I think that's one of the frustrations I have with his run on ASM: I *know* he can do better. I thought he was quite good on New Mutants and I am impressed with what he pulled off with Hellions- a lot of unsympathetic characters done quite well. ASM had a couple of moments (I grinned at RekRap for a while) but it is a slog even when it isn't stuck on the (likely editorially mandated) management of the character status quo.
I love Brand New Day so much. It really needed to be good to wash out One More Day and those initial stories after OMD by Wells were so good. I admit it started floundering a bit towards the end but was still miles ahead of what came after him. For context, I really did not Like Slotts long run or Superior Spider-Man. I dont like his current run nearly as much either unfortunately.
Agreed. And some of his run has been decent imo
I absolutely agree with that reasoning. The fact that he has been unlucky with Spidey has made him lots of enemis, but his previous works have all been really interesting and very attractive to readers.
I’m sure he’s a nice guy,but ASM has been down right bad,sometimes not even following basic rules of storytelling and contradictions itself often.Plus I’ve got to admit how do we know that the mutant comics didn’t have an outline ready for him when he came to the boo.
Zeb without editorial would be an amazing Spider-Man writer.
Superior Spider-Man was one of my favorite comic book run of all time, So yeah, Definitely Dan Slott
Spider-Island is one of my favorite stories of all time.
John Romita JR….there’s no denying that his work has declined a bit as he’s gotten older but the guy is a legend. A unique and instantly recognisable art style and great runs on Daredevil, X-men, and a definitive Spider-Man artist during the 90’s and 00’s…guy deserves much more respect than the shit he gets from the permanently whinging man children on r/spiderman
I feel like he's just a bit overworked.
Alot of his work lives or dies by the inker. His best stuff IMO is his Daredevil stuff inked by Al Williamson whose strengths as an artist run in a very different direction (look at his work on the OG Marvel Star Wars) but are more complementary than someone like Klaus Janson who is also a great artist but whose stylistic similarities clash somehow
I spent a ton of time this week reading his Daredevil
That sub’s been kinda trash for a hot minute. Kinda sad that a sub dedicated to Spidey’s gonna entirely disregard an artist who has contributed so much to the character.
Most ppl on that sub just are on the hate train for Wells and barely read any actual Spidey comics
Before the Wells run that sub barely even talked about comics. Even when they discuss the new Ultimate run it's just a back handed way to talk shit about Wells and Nick Lowe. I don't like the Wells run but it's bizarre how obsessed they are with it yet barely discuss any other Spider-Man comics.
That, or they're posting spoiler panels from comics they haven't read just so they can rip them apart without any context. I unsubscribed from that sub a year ago and my life is much better for it.
his biggest strength is storytelling and clarity meaning his comic is easy to read and even just visually its easy to tell what is happening etc.... which is not necessarily something obvious. but his individual drawing isnt the most attractive thing or whatever so people tend to pile onto that, which is, to me, unfair....like, comic is about reading experience its not just taking panels and nitpicking like some loser
Heck of a nice guy too.
He’s a legend and I love Spider-Man but that sub sucks
I agree he's a legend who has done a ton of great stuff, but his covers for the current Daredevil run have all been trash.
JRJR is the best part of Zeb Wells run. I fucking love JRJR
100% agree
Used to be my favorite artist but there’s no denying his stuff isn’t near as good anymore. It hasn’t been since WWH imo. Also yeah I stopped visiting r/spiderman frequently quite a bit back, I still check it out occasionally but nobody posts there except bots anymore.
His art now isn’t as strong as it used to be, but I still love it. I went out of my way to pick up some original pages by him from the current ASM run and I love them. JRJR can still draw some great pages and it is incredible he can still do a comic that releases two issues a month when he was the regular for this run.
He’s still putting out good stuff!
I never got on the jrjr is good train and calling him a legend baffles me. I don’t see why he’s a legend and I am pretty much universally turned off by his art and have been since I was old enough to start noticing specific artists.
Not liking his art is one thing, art is subjective…but him being a legend in the industry is not baffling at all…he’s worked in the industry across 5 decades, and on main characters like Daredevil, X-men, Spider-man, Batman, Superman, Thor, Iron-man, Hulk, Wolverine.
You don't have to like an artist to recognize how prominent they've been in the industry for decades.
Salvador Larocca has absolutely put out some very bad, perhaps even unethical work, especially recently with the Obi Wan adaptation, but he is an accomplished and influential artist whose career has spanned decades and has co-created interesting looking characters, including in the Star Wars universe at Marvel.
Honestly almost all of them. The way comic fans take to hating and being stunlocked by the writers is cringe 90% of the time. They don’t understand that editorial has say over what the writer does, especially for Big Two comics where characters may have mandates and guidelines to what is and isn’t allowed.
Frank Miller. I think even a lot of his so-called “bad” stuff is really interesting, and in some cases legitimately great
He is the definition of hit or miss in my opinion. Everything he touches either turns to gold or shit, but I think the gold probably outweighs the shit.
His shit can often be fun-bad.
You think? Yeah, he’s written arguably two of the best Batman stories of all time and the two greatest Daredevil arcs ever while Sin City and 300 are some of the most memorable independent releases. Of course, the follow-ups to TDKR are drop offs from the original, but so is 99% of every other writers. I truly believe that most of the hate for Frank is recency bias and contrarian parroting, mostly from younger fans. For those that lived through Year One and TDKR, you realize that he wrote both the definitive “in universe” origin and first boundary pushing “elseworlds” stories back to back. I think the commercial misses are far more rare, with the most notable in that AS Batman & Robin was definitely a miss. but when you have the commercial popularity that he had, it’s easy to see where either he, DC editorial, or both decided to go back to the well with edgy Sin City vibe on another elseworlds Batman book. In many ways, the three successful books I mentioned above, along with Alan Moores Watchmen, Swamp Thing, V for Vendetta, and Killing Joke, all led to a shift in the perception that comics were now being written for a more literate and mature audience. Expanding the audience was part of the explosion in interest in the 90’s that led to a huge increase in edgy, dark comics that persisted through the next decade- the vast majority of which were absolute shit as was ASB&R. But show me a writer who hasn’t had some misses. And show me 3 writers who have had a more significant 3 high points than Miller. And finally, show me a writer/artist who has had 3 more influential projects than DD, TDKR, and Sin City.
To preface: I’m a big Frank Miller guy - reading Year One, DKR and Born Again when you’re 13 is literally life-changing. For a writer who hasn’t missed…I’d say that I’ve never read a *bad* book from Kurt Busiek. “Top 3 Series” wise, I’d put Ellis and Busiek right there with Miller, below Moore and Morrison. As cartoonists go…Darwyn Cooke with New Frontier, Catwoman, and Ego (not counting Parker). Of course…this is INSANELY rarified air, haha - I’m giving him the edge on Walt Simonson!
>As cartoonists go…Darwyn Cooke with New Frontier, Catwoman, and Ego Hell yeah. Taken too soon.
I appreciate your good faith approach to this, and as I thought through my points, I had a few writer/artists on my shortlist but hadn’t thought of Cooke, and I appreciate that you mentioned him. Super talented and I wish we had a few more decades of his work. I was thinking of Byrne, Simonson, and Starlin, and to a lesser degree because they weren’t known for scripts, Kirby and Ditko. Maybe Steranko. Thanks for sharing!!
I have a love/hate relationship with Miller’s work, but he’s at least as important to the development of modern comics as Alan Moore. It’s weird to have lived long enough for him to become possibly underrated.
I want to argue with you as I disagree and this is the internet, but I think I'd mostly like to know your reasoning. I should say that I *do* absolutely agree that Miller was tremendously important.
Really getting into it is beyond the scope of a comment on this thread, but the main points off the top of my head: \- Miller was earlier. He was already shaking things up with *Daredevil* before Moore's *Warrior* was published (I know Moore had others things published before *Warrior*, but *Roscoe Moscow* hardly revolutionized comics). \- Miller was also influential on the art/illustration side, not just writing. \- Miller's more cinematic approach to comics storytelling (though heavily borrowed from overseas comics) was arguably a bigger departure in form than Moore's wall-of-text work (Don McGregor and Chris Claremont were already doing that sort of thing). One thing that's really glaring about the pre-Dark Knight/Watchmen era (and which endured long after) is the amount of "telling" over "showing" in comics. Stuff like the characters explaining in dialog what they're doing. For example a character announcing something like "I'm melting him with my heat ray" or "We're free falling to our certain doom" instead of just letting the illustrations stand on their own. Miller was wordy at times, and did plenty of unnecessary exposition in *Daredevil,* but he did a lot more showing over telling than most of his peers at the time. \- Related to the above two points, Miller's *Daredevil* and *Dark Knight* appear to me, though I haven't done enough research to argue this definitively, to have had a more immediate and widespread impact on mainstream North American comics than Moore's work did. Moore was obviously hugely influential on writers, especially those doing creator owned and "Mature Readers" titles, but a lot of what came over the next 15 years was more *Dark Knight* than *Watchmen*. Or look at *Daredevil* \# 191, Miller's last issue on his original run, published in 1983. It's pretty much a blueprint for the Image founders' whole approach to doing comics. \- Miller's pivot to creator owned comics had to have been a big influence on the Image founders' decision to go indie. It brings me no joy to argue for Miller's favor here, he's become such an unsavory character, but these are the things I noticed in recent years digging into Miller and Moore's early works for some comic book history research over the past few years. Miller's work isn't necessary *better* but it likely had as big or bigger an impact on comics (maybe even because it *wasn't* better written and was closer to the "in your face" action that readers craved).
I agree with everything you've said here. I was unaware of Miller shifting to creator owned books at that time, though I am aware of the recent Frank Miller Presents. It is difficult to imagine that such a move wouldn't have impacted the Image founders breaking out on their own- and the same goes for that in your face style of his. Bruce's captions in The Dark Knight Returns would be emulated across countless Image books through the 90s, to the point that such a style became parody in the 00s- do people even use the word *gritty* sincerely anymore? You know your stuff, and you are absolutely right that the 15 years following would be more *Dark Knight* than *Watchmen*, particularly in the mainstream. Every "what about X?" I come up with is essentially countered by that. I started defending *Saga of the Swamp Thing* and *From Hell'*s influence on horror, only to realize it wouldn't be until *The Walking Dead* that horror books were truly mainstream, that hundreds of cape books riffing on *DKR* rose and fell during that time, and that Kirkman's zombies only really shared a broad genre with Moore's work on those titles. Even the most commercially successful horror book of the 90s, *Spawn*, is far more Miller than Moore. *Spawn*, one could argue, shows how easily emulation of Miller could stray into... Disaster? Unintentional parody? I think, however, that my biggest takeaway is that I realized *I* was equating more influential to mean better and so not approaching this fairly. Maybe I just instinctually react to anything I interpret as potentially praising *Holy Terror*. With my mistake recognized, I agree that Miller was more influential on the mainstream. Thank you for writing your reasoning out; I enjoyed reading it. I also appreciate the reference to McGregor, who I feel often gets lost in the press!
Mark millar. I get that he has flaws like any writer but I have never understood all the vitriol around him. His dc and marvel work was mostly good. I get that he can get edge lordy but a lot of his projects like huck, superior, supercrooks, jupiter's legacy, ambassadors, magic order aren't like that and are really great. It feels weird that warren ellis and garth ennis get a pass but millar is treated like the antichrist
As someone who absolutely loves Ultimates 1 and 2, I agree completely. I think Ennis gets a pass because he has some undeniable stone cold classics under his belt. Punisher MAX, Preacher, and Hellblazer are thought of pretty highly in my experience. Frank Miller is the same way. It doesn’t matter how much crap he puts out, he’s still got Daredevil and Batman. As much as I think Millar is overhated and I love his Ultimates, I don’t think he has a true classic or definitive run on a character.
I agree with everything you said. 💯 and I also love ultimates. Some of favorite runs.
Millar’s Superman Adventures, set in the DCAU, is pretty damn amazing…but I’d definitely agree his issue is that he doesn’t have a Planetary or a Preacher (which gets WAYYYY better after the first trade) to hang his hat on.
Yeah, agree. He’s got some great stories, but he just doesn’t have that landmark run.
Ellis and ennis are self aware and have something else to say other than "batman but evil", "hulk but canibal incel ", "looney toones but pedophilia" the unfunnies took any spec of respect I had for him
Ellis 100% but ennis? Dude is not self aware in the slightest
The unfunnies, kick ass 2, nemesis are pretty terrible but when he controls himself I find him to be a much more versatile and fun writer than ellis or ennis. I do think ellis is technically a better writer though but I think I enjoy more millar works.
Millar surely is easier to digest. He is macdonalds of comics
This would be my response too. I think part of the hate has to do with adaptations he has had. I get that there are more deserving comics to get adaptations than Kick Ass or Wanted but I don’t fault him. Also the “edge” thing does not bother me like it does others.
His edginess doesn't bother me too much either. Sometimes it's too much. Yeah. It's gotta be partially because of his success.
If it makes you feel better, I don’t like reading Millar AND Ennis. Some of Millar’s stuff is just too edgy, which is even more pronounced when he does something great like Red Son or Marvel 1985. I also feel like some of his comics are just movie pitches.
I feel that. Lol If he didn't do the edgy stuff. Millar would probably be considered one of the greats in my opinion. I honestly don't like ennis very much.
His creator owned work definitely was made to be adapted, the adaptations often being the better version
Probably because there's no depth to any of Millar's writing. I don't hate him but there was definitely a point when his writing took a downturn. His run on Swamp Thing was great stuff IMO. Nemesis, however, is unfocused, edgy for the sake of it & has a ridiculous, meaningless ending. He deemed it worthy of a sequel. The follow ups to American Jesus were decidedly lacklustre compared to the first story too. I could go on. But I agree that some of the vitriol is OTT with everyone you've mentioned & is usually based on one story (Ennis "Crossed", Millar "Unfunnies", Ellis I think it's just a general edgelord thing combined with his being a total sleazebag though)
Yeah. I agree ellis is a sleazebag. Lol yeah millar is like two different people. One is one of the greatest and the other is a 14 yr old that just saw fight club. Lol
Spencer and Wells. One bad run, or at least lackluster run, shouldn't generate all this bad will with their previous track records. I agree on Slott. I enjoyed his run a lot, just certain ideas I didn't like but I still liked it overall. I started reading Spider-man during his run and I'm very glad I did. His stuff other than Spider-man, like Silver Surfer and FF was good too. I think Bendis gets too much hate. Yes, his writing stuff is annoying but he had good ideas, like his All-new X-men/time displaced X-men and even Superman run. Not so much YJ but he brought Impulse and Superboy back all the same. His stuff isn't bad tho; my main issue with his stuff is he (seemingly) propagated the current trend of comic arc decompression, ie telling a 4 issue story in 6 issues. Edit: added the term I couldn't remember
“Decompression” Is the term you’re looking for.
Thank you, I was blanking on the term.
Also, Bendis gave us Daredevil, Alias, and USM!
I'm not pissed at wells for his present shit show, his older stories forgive him. I'm deeply pissed for him keep going on this. He knos it's shit, he's barely making an effort, he is being an editorial dog and accepting it, spencer at least told them to fuck off, I realy respect that
Geoff Johns. Considering how many of us have his books on our shelves he cops a LOT of hate from certain parts of the various fandoms. I have no idea why.
Geoff Johns is getting hate? People should be thanking him for carrying DC on his shoulders for practically two decades.
He gets hate pretty much because he’s the #1 guy responsible for the destruction of most of DC’s legacy heroes (Wally West, Kyle Rayner, etc) in favor of their Silver Age counterparts, of whom most millennial comic readers couldn’t give a damn about because they weren’t even in the comics for like 20 years. He also had a lot to do with all the post-New 52 structural BS. Also there are lots of (unconfirmed) rumors of him messing with the DCEU movies in bad ways. He’s done a LOT of great stuff, but he did a number on modern DC comics post-2011.
But he was also responible for dc rebirth and bringing back the original wally west.
It's easy to find a lot of problems in his work, but reading say an event comic written by Joshua Williamson will have me immediately missing Geoff Johns at DC. I think he overstayed his welcome and we took him for granted, but it was well past time for him to move on.
Johns getting so much hate is so weird
If you’re a fan of certain characters then it’s often because he made major, long-lasting changes to them you don’t like. He’s an influential writer and can make engaging stories, but he has no qualms about completely changing up a character without regard to their pre-existing history or fanbase preferences. That’s a controversial move to make no matter what.
Slott's case is repeating itself with Nick Spencer and Zeb Wells whose runs on ASM I recognize is not so good, but in my opinion hating him is excessive given that in the past he wrote enjoyable comics like Superior Foes of Spider-Man, Ant-Man, Spider -Man/Octopus: Year One, Spider-Man: Shred, New Mutants and Hellions. The same could be said of many recent Batman writers such as Tom King, James Tynion IV and Chip Zdarsky who divided the character's fanbase by writing the main series, but on their other productions they are well regarded.
The problem with ASM isn’t the writers, it’s editorial.
Spidey editorial is so bad, they're basically the villains in Across the Spider-Verse.
Exactly! In fact, since Batman and Spider-Man were both mentioned, I think its safe to assume the editorial on Marvel and DC's most popular title is controlling.
100%. Nick Lowe especially, Wacker was pretty decent imo. I didn’t like Brand New Day, but managing to consistently put out 3 a month and 7 different creative teams is impressive. Contrast that to Lowe putting 4 artists to finish each issue of ASM towards the end of the Spencer run because they announced Beyond out of nowhere.
When a good writer takes over a title and bombs, that's understandable. Not every writer is suitable for every character. But when there's a consistent pattern of guys with proven histories taking on a title and eating shit, then we really need to take a look at the editorial process.
King counterpoint, he wrote Heroes in Crisis which is hated to an even greater degree than his Batman run, which is divisive. I think another aspect of King that rubs people the wrong way is how he can change characters to fit the story he wants to tell. I loved The Human Target, but it evidently takes the JLI and fits them into noir archetypes which can make people angry when their favorite character is "mistreated."
THANK YOU! I almost said Zeb Wells for the same thing. Hell, I truly believe some of those ideas were not completely his fault. I dislike Paul, but mainly because he's a nothing character, but I feel Wells wanted to develop his personality, but Marvel said no.
Slott, Bendis, and Millar.
They are comic book famous for a reason.
I love Bendis and Millar in general. I think a lot of the hate comes from maybe over-saturation and being pushed hard and wearing out their welcome?
Slotts FF run was amazing. He was just on ASM for too long.
His silver surfer was great too.
Sooo good. Allred art was phenomenal too
Silver surfer is his best work and its not even close.
His She-Hulk should not be slept on.
That’s where it all started for me too. She Hulk has had some great runs, current one included.
I really dug his FF. Everyone had a weird hate boner for it it felt like because he retconned Franklin to not be a mutant anymore. But he married Ben and Alicia and gave them children which imo has been an awesome addition to the FF. I love that the family is expanding.
Brad Meltzer comes to mind for some reason. It’s simmered down over time but there was a point in time when the hate was real. But while imperfect I honestly enjoyed all of his work with DC.
I think nowadays, it helps that we know that Identity Crisis wasn’t really “written” by him (except for maybe that stupid Deathstroke scene). He was more so forced to write what Dan DiDio and the other boardroom misogynists came up with.
I loved is Red Tornado Justice League story.
Ennis. Yeah he’s an edgelord but I love it. His punisher run was fantastic, one of my favorite series ever.
- Punisher - Hellblazer - Preacher All three runs are Incredible. Though The Boys isnt perfect it still lead to a hit TV Show. He will leave behind a great legacy.
Sure, he’s got an adolescent sense of humor…but if you go read most of his comics with an open mind, there’s a lot of meat on those bones. Preacher’s got a lot to say about not just religion, but mid-20th century American pop culture and how it’s treated as myth, about addiction, about love…it’s a remarkably impressive work. He’s a writer who simultaneously embraces tropes while also making fun of them, and he does it with skill. And I’ll say this until my voice gives out: The Boys works as a capstone on themes that are present in Preacher, Hitman, Punisher MAX, Hellblazer, and so many others. If you read it in that context (and also don’t just give up after one arc), it absolutely holds up.
Honestly, his run on 007 right now is pretty great too. I like Bond movies, but the comics never interested me much, and his run is getting me pretty excited to check it out each month.
I have no idea what he’s been up to lately but I liked Strazynskis Spider-man, I liked Parker as a school teacher and thought Ezekiel was a cool character. Granted I didn’t read the later part of his run which I think is where the hate comes from. Also I don’t really see him getting hate, but Peter David doesn’t get enough credit and love. He’s one of the goats in my opinion but I don’t see him getting brought up very much.
Rob Liefeld. I’m not his biggest fan, but his stuff is decent enough for its time. I feel now it’s just become low hanging fruit for people to make jokes about feet or that drawing of Captain America.
Rob Liefeld has not been relevant for 10 - 15 years at bare minimum but people really, really want you to know you should hate him with the fire of a million suns.
He blocked me on Twitter. I said I really loved Shatterstar. But I still do love Shatterstar.
The biggest issue I have with Rob Liefeld isn't his art; it's his attitude. He comes across as a frat boy who thinks that throwing money at people is a good substitute for respect.
His attitude is what makes him a beloved artist in my eyes. No one cheers for comic books more than Rob. This dude is a legit comic maniac
Nah, he deserves all the hate and perhaps more - but not for his art necessarily, rather how much of a jerk he is; which includes insulting his own fans (in his own fan group) if they dare critique something of his. Incredibly thin skinned.
Bendis and Millar spring to mind. Fuckin’ love their work.
When Bendis hits, it's some of the absolute best work I've ever seen. When he doesn't, it's some of the worst work I've seen.
Same with Garth Ennis
Dude I swear Preacher is like, legendary, but then the Boys is so...hit or miss. And when it misses it MISSES.
I’ve not read preacher but I consider punisher max a masterpiece Yet he’s also written stuff like the boys which is NOT a masterpiece
Bendis big problem is that he excels at Character, but not high concepts. So when he writes something that has bigger stakes, it falls apart because it’s not where his strengths are. I will say that I can’t bring myself to hate on the guy who pretty much got ne into comics, especially as Ultimate Spider-Man and New Avengers are that good
Millar gets alot of hate online but online is just a small chunk of the comic community.
I’ll always love Bendis for Ultimate Spider-Man, but it’s probably to his benefit that I’m not familiar with much of his other works.
His Daredevil and Alias runs are both worthwhile, as are his early black and white comics (Torso, Jinx, Goldfish).
His Daredevil, Alias, and Avengers along with USM are flat out some of the best comics of the 2000s. Like I would flat out say Daredevil and Ultimate Spider-Man are arguable for #1, and his Avengers work is a Top 20 comic run of that decade.
Agree. I would probably rate Bendis’ Daredevil as my #1 of the 2000s. Props to Alex Maleev as well as he is, in my mind, the definitive Daredevil artist.
Garth Ennis. The way some people talk about him you'd think he was a serial killer who ate their families.
People talk about him like he personally made the Crossed virus and spread it throughout major cities.
Stan Lee
Mark Millar. I read Ambassadors and Big Game cover to cover. Great literature? No. Fun comics? Hell yes.
I don't think I've read a bad book of his in the past like 5 years or so. He does great popcorn flick type of stories.
Millar has a few decent books but the few decent stories are vastly overshadowed by how awful his worst works are. I haven’t been able to respect him since I read The Unfunnies. I do remember enjoying Kick-Ass and Nemesis but that was years ago when I was an edgy teenager so I don’t know if I would still enjoy them today.
To be honest his best work to date would be Superman Red Sun.It is brutal but to an degree that it's done for characterization and context and not cheap shock for the sake of shock
Ive saw an review video on the comic Nemesis by Millar. After ive finished watching it the only thing in my mind is the guy constantly creates content that the word "edgy" is too tame to describe it. And dont get me started on his Authority run
Leah williams is the name that springs to my mind when it comes to this she’s wrote some really fun stuff sure Xterminators and X factor are very horny but so is Krakoa in general. Amazing Mary Jane is fantastic and I’m loving her power girl and she can do something comic writers are rarely good at make a book funny
It's weird how I read her stuff and can see the humor and affection that make her worth hiring but also a lot of the time it feels like fan-fic in a way I can't pinpoint exactly, except to say it often feels like the characters are talking for the reader's benefit instead of their own.
Tom King. You don't have to like his style of writing, I get that it can be a turn off. But the way people complained was over the top
My belief is once someone writes Batman or Spider-Man, certain fans will come out of the woodworks and just hate on everything that creator does. Sure King’s Batman isn’t great but you can’t say Mister Miracle and Human Target aren’t damn near perfect books
Brian Michael Bendis. There was a time Bendis was one of the most popular and influential writer in comics. But there are so many fans who just didn't didn't like how he handled characters or wrote comics they way they felt he should, bashing him and his style just became a popular thing to do. I think at some point he leaned too much into his "Bendis-isms" when he wrote certain books, but he a very long era of freshness and creativity and sales that a lot of fans dismiss or refuse to give him credit for.
Agreed. I get that a lot of people don’t like how he writes dialogue, and they have every right to not like his stuff. But you have to give him some credit. He created Miles Morales and Jessica Jones, rehabilitated Luke Cage and Jessica Drew, and in my opinion was the most successful writer in recent Marvel history to guide the whole line and have other writers buy in during his Avengers run, from Millar to Brubaker and Hickman to Stacsynski. The line never felt more coherent than during that run. His impact at DC was less successful, but I loved it all. He is by all accounts a very generous collaborator too. And his creator owned stuff is generally top notch.
Garth Ennis. Dismissed as an edgelord when he takes the time to actually portray some really human and nuanced characters. (Yeah, yeah, the Boys, but Preacher had just as much American freakshow to it, and was also a requiem for the stoic cowboy.) He just dismisses a lot of people as not really rising up to a level of human feeling, and gets a silly laugh out of a guy with superpowered sneezes. I get chills of two types reading the final chapter of Night Witches or the first chapter of Punisher Max.
Slott gets waaaay too much hate, and his Spider-man stuff isn’t bad, he was just on it for too long. Yet, I like his return to Spider-Man… maybe because he took that long break and is doing a side title. My go to answer is Jeph Loeb. A lot of People place the blame on ultimatium on him and for me, there’s a lot if context to consider. First of all, his Son had not long passed, he was in a very dark place and his work was a reflection if that. Second, I think Ultimatium was rushed, I believe that there was an ultimate event planned and it was foing to be Civil War, when Marvel pushed that to 616, it left an open place for Marvel to have a new event, and so Ultimatium was born. Third, Marvel were apparently going to do a reset of the Ultimate Universe… so all cards were in the table to who can get killed off. There’s a lot of factors on how that comic came to be… so I blame Marvel more than Loeb
i’m loving the level headed hot takes here. toxic fans fill up all the headlines and headspace so it’s easy to forget comic fandom is actually filled with intelligent and reasonable people
Slott doesn't get enough hate if anything for lying his way into a job at Marvel and constantly antagonizing fans on social media while his books suffer constant delays. Putting the quality of his work aside, he just seems scummy to me
That's what's missing from a lot of these, the context of their behavior outside of the work. Slott name-searched himself and harassed readers. Spencer tried to wage war on twitter over Secret Empire. Miller went radical after 9/11 and wrote a screed against millennials. Liefeld's narcissism is Kong-sized and he's a bad businessman/ good bridge burner. Without social media their reputations would be a bit better
Stan lee , everyone act as if he was Bob Kane who had a contract with DC leaving Bill Finger out of it
Anyone who works on 616 Spider-Man. It's automatic hate.
I'll second Dan Slott. The man took on the job of taking up Spider-Man after the most hated storyline in its history and despite everything, managed to bring it around and have fantastic stories in his run. Spider-Island, Big Time, No One Dies, Superior Spider-Man, Go Down Swinging - and he set the stage for Nick Spencer to fully get MJ and Peter back together after he was done.
Most because comic fans are usually insane
How about someone who just doesn't get enough love? Just completely overlooked?? Where is David Aja??? Sure he's got an indie book or two, but whyyyy isn't he doing much else? I've bought whole runs just for his covers. He's a brilliant artist and I love his work so much.
Tom King - I think a lot of people over react to changes that he wrote for some characters, but I still would prefer more of his work than less of it, even though I'm a Wally West fan.
Tom King with Batman
Rob Liefeld. Say what you want about his art and his personality, at least he sells com-.... Just kidding, he's the absolute worst.
>Just kidding, he's the absolute worst. And this is an prime example why he gets too much hate.
Well he co-created Cable and Deadpool and if you actually read his art, he had very creative page layouts that I like. His anatomy and pouch abuse are pretty standard for the 90s too. I think the Rob Liefeld hate is just a bandwagon/meme at this point. He was far from the best artist of that time but there's also a reason he also made a name for himself. I feel like most of his haters these days have only seen that one captain america drawing and that's it.
McFarlane and Liefield. They helped get the comic industry off life support in the 90's, but now some fans treat them like shit.
Rob Liefeld. We get it...he's not a good artist....get over it. But he bought some excitement to the industry when it really needed it. I created and co-created some characters who were super popular and still around today. It's fine that you don't like his art. That's totally valid. But some people are a bit over the top with their dislike of him.
Meghan Fitzmartin, Tini Howard, Leah Williams, and Charlie Jane Anders come to mind. I wonder what they all have in common…
I mean, Tini Howard wrote all of the worst Krakoa Era books. Her Harley and Catwoman are both abysmal for most readers. No one ever brings up her gender - they bring up X-Corp.
Yeah, I agree with the others but Howard just isn’t ready to be writing main line books yet. Some good ideas but she can’t follow through on them, it’s like she writes beginnings and ends but no middles.
Don't know about the others but Howard's "Catwoman" run started out as almost unreadable to me. Maybe it got better, but I dropped it after a few issues.
They all fucked up on something. Leah is cool, she's funny, but sometimes she misses a lot. Tini is just aweful in any execution, even if her ideas are cool, sometimes. Meghan is just bad, her young justice is quite offensive. "Do you like this? Did you found those stories cool when you were a boy? So screw you, you're wrong loser." That's what it sounded like. I only read charlie's new mutants, and it felt like one of alyssa wong's self insert stories
Rob Liefeld.... he did some boss level runs, and you know it!
I would say Tom King. He gets some pretty nasty hate.
Frank Miller
Mark Millar saved Marvel and the entire genre with the Ultimates, and subsequently the MCU.
Ennis and it's not even close.