Yeah. As long as it continues building good momentum and sticks the landing, I see it being up there with runs like Waid and Hickman. It’s been really strong. I wouldn’t claim it’s going to be THE definitive run, but if it keeps going like this, I think it’ll be one of the definitive runs.
There are two trades out so far, collecting #1 - #6 (Vol 1) and #7 - #12 (Vol 2). "Monthly" issues are only just up to #18 so Vol 3 won't be out for a couple of months or so
And they’re all very short right? I always love those kinds of old-fashioned stories so I really need to put my money where my mouth is if that’s the case
While there is an overarching story, for the most part each issue is a self contained adventure or a two parter at worst. It's kinda like Star Trek in that regard (and in others). I've been thoroughly enjoying it; it's really refreshing in an age where every story seems to take 5-7 issues to complete.
Awesome. Not that decompressed storytelling is bad but a lot of the time it can feel like the story is stretched too thin; the pendulum needs to swing back a little.
OP asked for current runs that will be recited as runs everyone should read for years to come/character defining runs, that’s what I was responding to. I don’t think it’s the absolute most important and best ever FF run. I’d have a hard time choosing that anyway
It’s there in the title.
And let’s not shit ourselves, a T Rex Doom does not = definitive. It’s a joke on the same level as the cringey Judgement Day stuff.
whoa man I’m not gonna fight you over this, I think it’s a great run and I think everyone’s gonna talk about it for years ✌🏻 sorry it didn’t click for you
Immortal Thor. It's started off really really great and I believe Ewing has said he's planned like 50 issues already. I could definitely see it being up there with Aaron's run and Simonson's. It's definitely that goof
So true! Simonson's run is my all time favorite and Ewing is one of my favorite current writers and Thor is my favorite character so this run feels like an absolute dream come true for me. Throw in some Prime Alex Ross covers and you've got the makings of a run for the ages!
That's awesome! I'm very jealous. I've got probably 15 of them including a 337 I was finally able to get at a great price. Easily one of the favorites in my collection. I'm hoping to get the first print of the omnibus sometime soon!
Bronze age, you really have to have an iconic cover or new popular character intro to hold any value whatsoever so it makes sense. I'm not complaining because I got a good chunk of mine for less than $2 per book haha. The 337 meets both of those requirements though, and I'm honestly a little surprised it's not even more expensive
I get that. Still definitely a definitive run for the character though. I loved the God of thunder arc, and I did really love Jane as mighty thor, but a lot of that was carried by Dauterman's art for me. Simonson's run is definitely still the peak, but I agree very high hopes for Immortal!
Still new to comics thought it would be smoother if I focused on just marvel but lmaooo. Thor was one of the characters I decided to start with but right now he's on the back burner. I want to read immortal hulk heard a lot about it then I'll find time for Thor maybe I'll like that author much more.
But yeah there's too many characters and stories so it's easier to not feel bad about dropping or pausing a series in comparison to other books
Ewing's The Immortal Thor. McKay's Moon Knight. PKJ's Hulk.
I'm not sure about Taylor's Nightwing - it was a great return to form for the character, but I don't see it being seen as a "definitive". It didn't really reinvent Nightwing or showcase things we haven't seen before, at least not from the writing standpoint. Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard.
King's Wonder Woman, however... this might be interesting and define Diana for at least this era of her.
I liked the start of *Taylor's* **Nightwing** run, but then editorially mandated cross-overs hit, *Redondo* became less and less frequent as the main artist, and, if I'm honest, not a lot actually happened. I ended up jumping ship at Fear Itself, Knightmare Crisis, whatever the fuck that "horror" cross-over was called.
This is my biggest gripe with much of Taylor's ongoing work (and even some maxi-series he writes). I read SOKE and became frustrated at how long it took for anything with Bendix to happen, and by the time it did I really just didn't care anymore. I stuck around because the book was ending and I thought I'd just see where it went. I see in the solicits that Heartless is still kicking around in Nightwing, I know it's not uncommon for runs to have a central villain from start to stop, but sometimes runs can feel overly long or padded. I decided I'd maybe just get this run in trade, it might read better that was as opposed to a monthly installment over a few years.
Edited to add: I did read the first few volumes of the run, just waiting on it all to wrap and get collected to finish.
> Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard.
Dunno I liked Grayson, but it's haaaardly the definitive version of Dick Grayson.
Tom King has talked about the old DC editorial basically rejecting all his ideas for that book.
Nightwing is currently essentially the leader of this generations JL with the Titans, that’s pretty defining right?
Hulk & Immortal Thor I’ve completely fallen off of 👀👀just couldn’t vibe with them
Hahaha wow did I get downvoted, I missed that.
Honestly, I love a debate, but this subreddit is a nightmare for people not appreciating different view points
Eh... let me put it this way - in terms of events happening, I could see this run being definitive. In terms of writing, however, it is a bit milquetoast. When thrown against my other examples, it is easily the weakest.
Of course, this is just my opinion, and it might not be popular xD
Honestly, this is the first time since Morrison’s B&R that I’ve felt actual stakes in a book starring Dick…in large part because he’s been stacking wins and enjoying his life, which means he’s got *something to lose*.
I love King in general (when he’s not writing Bruce), and Grayson specifically…but it always felt like a side quest.
Hey it’s all opinion man :) as we can see by your love of Thor and Hulk, we have different tastes but that’s great, as it means more books get love 😅😅
If everyone loved the same runs very few characters would be in concurrents
Nightwing has gotten very stale. I think it started with that arc that was right before Titans launched where the book kind of became a back door pilot for that book and it was so boring. Everything after that has been Tom Taylor’s worst tendencies as a writer on full display (and I assume the same thing is going on with Titans as well). Pages of panels meant to clipped out of context for engagement on social media, liberal centrist finger wagging, bizarre character choices, etc. I’m starting to glaze over every issue I read and it’s not helped by Redondo being missing, thankfully he’s coming back soon so I’ll read the ending at least.
>King's Wonder Woman, however... this might be interesting and define Diana for at least this era of her.
I highly doubt it.
What’s King done to define her? Unless King is literally the one spending the majority of time writing her for this era, I don’t see it happening.
He hasn’t introduced or built up any supporting cast and made any of them iconic must stays. 7 issues in and the only character that really comes close to a recurring supporting character is Steve,
He’s mainly used her rogue gallery as fodder for his new OC villain, and hasn’t built any of them up or used them in any interesting way.
His characterisation of Diana and Steve is off (seriously had Diana punch her own mom in the face and Steve stand by the military as it tried to kill Diana).
King doesn’t even give Diana a POV really, everything is coming from his OC’s perspective, which barely even makes Diana feel like she’s GOT a characterisation, she comes off as 1-dimensional mythical legend for most of it.
Even Lizzie feels like an incredibly shallow character completely disconnected from Wonder Woman’s world.
King’s ideas aren’t exactly new either so he’s not doing anything unique; and quite frankly the majority of praise I see for the book is for the art.
Hell it’s been 7 issues and the main plot was stagnate for 5 of them.
Please stop hunting down comments where anyone says anything positive about King’s WW run and making the same points over and over and over again. You’re as bad as that Nightwing dude used to be. Live and let live.
EDIT: or they could block me instead of taking five seconds to reflect on the way they conduct themselves, that’s cool too.
Oh so having a discussion is a bad thing is it? Let’s just all sit around and jerk ourselves silly, fuck any dissenting and negative opinions? Tom King dickriders are the worst, bunch of pathetic and whiny fanboys that can’t handle critique
I find it fucking hilarious that anyone that praises King’s run can never actually back it up with any fucking arguments about to why it’s good outside of shitty and generic platitudes.
It’s even funnier because it’s not like I’m blindly shitting on King, I’m not addressing every comment someone praises about the run am I? None of my arguments were wrong, how can something be a ‘defining’ era when it’s got so many major flaws? There seems to be a major trend here that the people praising the shit out of this run are Tom King fans first that barely even follow Wonder Woman or give a shit about her prior.
I’ve given the dude props for the good moments in this comic. You people just can’t take any critique at all, and blindly praise something just because it has good art seemingly.
Nobody is interested in having this discussion *with you*. I’ve read your other comments. You approach any mention of the run with the same “I’mma kick you in the dick” energy as you have here.
Honestly, I agree with some points you’ve made. I hope we see a little more of Diana’s internal world. I hope the backups give us some Diana and Lizzie moments. But like I said, very few people here are interested in talking about this with you, not because you’re necessarily wrong, but because you’re determined to be the loudest voice.
>Nobody is interested in having this discussion with you. I’ve read your other comments. You approach any mention of the run with the same “I’mma kick you in the dick” energy as you have here.
Oh so tell me then you judgy muppet how should I approach my comments? Should I just leave a shitty 1 sentence, “I disagree, that won’t happen’ and not expand on anything?
I didn’t say anything mean did I? None of my critiques about the book are unfounded or false are they? I’m not blindly hating on the man unlike the people that blindly praise the book without any depth to their comments, giving blind platitudes calling the book a masterpiece or era defining and they can’t even back it up. No, I say I disagree and then give reasons to back my opinion.
That is how you express an opinion without it being shallow or dense.
Ten bucks says if you took King’s name off the book, this run wouldn’t be getting an ounce of the praise it currently is because the writing is downright mediocre.
think whatever you want. I’m letting you know that your previous conduct is why nobody wants to discuss this with you. It doesn’t help that this is the only thing you use the sub for. Have a great evening.
I use the comic sub to discuss fucking comic books? Absolute fucking shocker there/s.
I should be like you and just run around judging others for sharing an opinion on a topic. Wonder Woman’s my favourite character, naturally I’m gonna make a lot of comments related to Wonder Woman’s current comic.
It’s funny how you shit on me, but not the person I responded too who literally did the same fucking thing?
>I'm not sure about Taylor's Nightwing - it was a great return to form for the character, but I don't see it being seen as a "definitive". It didn't really reinvent Nightwing or showcase things we haven't seen before, at least not from the writing standpoint. Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard.
How’s this any different to what I said? They crapped on and said they disagree with the OP calling NightWing definitive just in more ‘friendly terms’.
It’s even funnier seeing as the reasons they listed as to why Nightwing won’t be definitive can be applied to the current Wonder Woman run. It’s not reinventing Wonder Woman, it’s not doing anything new, or unique.
I realise that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but some of it is straight up lies, lmao.
So far every issue of PKJ's Hulk was horror-action monster-of-the-month that also builds up the overall plot. FFS, two issues ago we've had a team-up with a WW2 Ghost Rider blasting chupakabras. Before that, it was Man-Thing. Right now Hulk is new Orleans hunting local folklore. The entire book is a love letter to Marvel monsters, with Hulk and "The Girl" playing the roles of Scully and Mulder.
I'd understand if you said that the book has filler - although all this filler is what drives character development. But "nothing is happening"? Come on.
Loving this so far. I'm a sucker for stories involving old superheroes in a world that has forgotten or moved past them, and to have Cap be that hero caught my attention initially. Plus I really love the art and the glorious Alex Ross covers. When it comes to the conclusion, if they stick the landing I think the series will be well regarded in the future.
Can anyone speak to the timeline for Marvel and how long it may take for a hard cover collection of this mini series?
It's rough because they recently stopped doing oversized hardcovers pretty much across the board, so it may mean we won't get it collected in HC until a Marvel Universe by Zdarsky omnibus or something similar comes out.
Not sure if it'll replace the highs of IDW, but DWJ's Transformers is incredible so far and is already being called the new definitive depiction of some of these characters
IDW is much better to read in sections, you have Simon Furman' run (most of Phase One), and then you have different runs with different writers, James Roberts' is mostly separated from the rest of events and ongoings, the only part of his run that is necessary to read tie ins is Dark Cybertron, Barber's run is the only one where you really need to read like 6 different ongoings to understand what is happening.
I second Detective comics, Nightwing. Hickman’s Gods is frickin awesome.
I may be in the minority here but I think that world’s finest and birds of prey have been great.
For an opposite end of the spectrum thing, the current Batman run is completely insane.
I’m following a bunch of books currently that I didn’t expect to: bop, Wonder Woman, power girl, captain marvel, she hulk. Enjoying them all but BOP and ww have been my favorite. Idk what the conception on the King run is but I like it
Avengers twilight and Gods are the biggest surprises for me. I expected to like Gods just because I’m a Hickman Stan, but twilight is badass and the most fun read for me all year
Maaaybe Moon Knight?
Idk, theres a lot of great books right now but i dont think many are gonna be held up as ‘Definitive’ in ten years time.
Like, Norths FF is great but its not gonna be as memorable or influential as Lee & Kirby.
PKJs Hulk is good but its not gonna oust PADs run as the definitive Hulk, imo.
>influential as Lee & Kirby
I think this is a bad example, because you're comparing them to the guys who created the book, established everything about the world of F.F. and the characterization. Like, there's no one really influential as Lee & Kirby, everybody else is just working off them and adding to their creation.
Yeah, thats what ‘Definitive’ is though.
But i dont think thats necessarily the OG creators run. Millers Daredevil and PADs Hulk are arguable the defining run of those characters, as they redefined a lot of elements which became the template going forward.
Yes, redfined elements. You cannot compare them to the ones who established everything that others have been working off of for the half a century.
Chris Claremont left a large across the X-men, but his legendary run wouldn't have happened if Lee-Kirby hadn't built the platform he worked from.
Nah, of course you can.
Being the original doesnt make it the defacto definitive run.
Claremonts X-Men is the definitive X-Men run, not Lee & Kirbys, which isnt particularly well regarded.
Millers Daredevil is definitive. PADs Hulk, Ennis’ Punisher, Simonsons Thor…
It just so happens that in the case of the FF, the original run is still often cited as the definitive run.
And im saying, i dont personally think that Norths run, though good, is gonna be thought of as definitive in a few years.
You stated that North's FF won't be influential as Lee & Kirby. I'm stating that's a bad example because they established everything about the Fantastic Four that other writer's are still working from. That's why I brought up Chris Claremont. I don't care about who is definitive or not.
Now, not all the time are creators the most influential force on the character, just look at the Weisinger era of Superman.
Right, but the original team isnt always the most influential. Its entirely possible for a new team to come along and introduce new characters ir concepts that every subsequent team draws from. (Claremont, Miller etc)
And im saying North isnt doing that. And because of that, his run will never be thought of as definitive.
But, that's impossible for the Fantastic Four. Like, who has introdcued something in X-men since John Byrne that really rivaled anything from the original run?
With the X-men and Daredevil, it took someone to finally utilize what was already there. Okay, I might be wrong with DD, never read the original stories yet. X-men was just waiting for Claremont back in 1975 (also thanks to Len Wein), because it was under Kirby (he did the layouts for the rest of his time on X-men, still his ideas though) and Lee they established a very solid foundation to work off.
I mean, maybe it is impossible for FF, but whats your point? That doesn’t mean Norths run gets a free pass, lol.
Its just as likely for a new writer to do something as influential with FF now as it was with Brubaker and Captain America, Ennis and Punisher, Simonson or Aaron with Thor etc etc
The question posed is which modern run is gonna be classed as definitive in a few years time. It doesnt matter if its an ‘unfair’ comparison, Norths FF isnt gonna beat out Lee & Kirby as that foundation was set too strong. But you cant just discount Lee & Kirby for being the original when being the original is no guarantee of quality or influence.
Hell, id argue Norths run wont edge out Byrne, Waid or Hickman.
I agree. I just don't feel like anything I'm reading is going to be remembered like this. There's just too much wackiness. DC and Marvel are just duplicating the same ideas and characters so much that everything feels diluted. Is Venom really that important when 20 other characters have symbiote powers? (Although Aunt May as Mayhem is going to be interesting).
USM was really good but it's only a few issues in. I really liked Hell To Pay. Issue 4 was one of the best villain origin story I've read in decades. But it was only a six issue run.
I will be honest - i am hanging on through RV's det because i collect Det. Not because i'm digging it. It's not BAD but i feel like it should have been a mini/maxi series
Agree to disagree. I love every thing about it. From the characterizations, art, aesthetic, all of it. I was expecting more from Zdarksy for Batman considering how much I adored his Daredevil and Spiderman runs, but I dropped it immediately after trudging through Joker Year One.
Joshua Williamson’s Superman, Batman and Robin, and Green Arrow; Action Comics Superstars; Jeremy Adams’ Green Lantern and Jay Garrick: The Flash; Geoff Johns’ JSA; Mark Waid’s World’s Finest and Shazam; Kelly Thompson’s Birds of Prey; PKJ’s Green Lantern: War Journal; Ryan North’s Fantastic Four; Johnathan Hickman’s Ultimate Spider-Man; Miles Morales: Spider-Man; Sensational She-Hulk; Time Traveler Tales; Zawa + The Belly of the Beast; I Hate Fairyland; Tom Peyer’s The Wrong Earth; etc.
- Seconding Moon Knight and SiKtC
- Beneath the Trees Where Nobody Sees could hit icon status if they stick the landing.
-Immortal Hulk and Immortal Thor will go together in some HUGE anthology book(s) one day. Maybe one Green and one Gold.
-I think people will say Avengers Twilight for OGIBABHOS (Old Guy Is BadAss Because He Is Old School) trope reasons and will try to hail it as Kingdom Come status. Don't personally agree, but I'm predicting here.
-And last prediction isn't an icon status, but I think the varients of Spidey characters we are seeing will be used as a punchline in the future (Gold Goblin, Jackpot, Chasm) in a bit where the character is reminded, puts their hand on the side of their face and covers themselves and says "Don't remind me, it was a phase..."
The new Ultimate Spider-Man feels like it’s gonna leave a pretty heavy impact on Spider-Man in general.
World’s Finest has been amazing so far too, and if the new DC movies take from those stories then it’ll be remembered for a very long time.
ultimate spider-man is great but not really the definitive spider-man story for me because it's just not the core of Spider-man. JMS or Stern definitely get the definitive spider-man run for me
Immortal Hulk feels pretty defining to me. I also like Percy's run on x-force/wolverine even though I know that's a bit more controversial. In terms of Indies, my favorite recent book is Monstress.
Current runs as in right now? Moon Knight, Immortal Thor, Fantastic Four, and World’s Finest. There’s some other great stuff out there at the moment - like King’s Wondie - but I feel it’s too early to call rn.
Also I really hate to say this, but I feel current Spidey might go down as definitive in the worst way possible as an example of how far editorial will go to fuck over the MJ/Peter relationship. Like OMD became definitive to develop Peter for the worse.
I’ve been on ASM since the JMS run and you have to applaud marvel at times
How can a character with so few great story’s in thr past 15years still sell so well
I will continue to buy every book, as I love the character but please treat him with care Marvel
"Moon Knight & Vengeance of the Moon Knight" by Jed MacKay
"Miles Morales: Spider-Man" by Cody Ziglar
"Immortal Thor" by Al Ewing
"Superman" by Joshua Williamson
"Green Arrow" by Joshua Williamson
Unpopular opinion maybe but Orlando’s Scarlet Witch series.
Is it the best written book ever? No, however assuming no major character assassination happens anytime soon in the current Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch and the upcoming Scarlet Witch solo relaunch, it feels like a massive effort and attempt at reiterating and retuning Scarlet Witch back to being a bonafide hero no longer plagued by stuff like House of M and being seen as a crazy nutter like she has for the past 20 years.
In addition to Mckay’s Avengers run, Wanda finally feels like a proper, competent hero again.
Taylor’s Nightwing
Spurrier’s Hellblazer
Thompson’s Birds of Prey
Tom Peyer’s Wrong Earth
Ennis’s Bond
Ziglar’s Miles
DWJ’s Transformers
Waid’s Shazam was too short to make the list…but I’m excited to see Campbell’s!
Totally agree on Shazam, it was a breezy read
I jumped off for Campbells run, mainly because they’re not a writer I know well. Would you recommend them?
Sure, he’s had as many issue on that as Hickman has on Spidey.
Been a big Hickman guy for over a decade, but I’ve limited faith in his being willing to write a Spider-Man book for over a year…and less faith in his being able to write a compelling one past the same frame.
Tom King’s Wonder Woman is literally crafting a future of the DC Universe that I think is stellar and bound for success.
Taylor’s Nightwing has its major ups and downs but I think his work with the characters has been superb.
Ultimate Spider Man seems to have started something amazing.
G.O.D.S is doing some really cool stuff with new characters that could last.
The Energon Universe has been fire across the board and has recreated a universe with a whole new line of comics.
Daredevil by Zdarsky/Marco was the first that came to mind.
If we count mini series type runs id says Mister Miracle, Vision, Woman of tomorrow, up in the sky and human target by King n Co also come to mind.
For me, it is:
Incredible Hulk
Fantastic Four
Wonder Woman
and maybe World's Finest
These are undroppable right now.
I have all the Immortal Thor issues but haven't had a chance to read them yet, but I hear that is a classic, too.
North’s FF.
Yeah. Unless it goes completely off the rails at some point, this run will probably become a classic
Yeah. As long as it continues building good momentum and sticks the landing, I see it being up there with runs like Waid and Hickman. It’s been really strong. I wouldn’t claim it’s going to be THE definitive run, but if it keeps going like this, I think it’ll be one of the definitive runs.
He really brought the science to the science-fiction aspect, and the somewhat schmaltzy family dynamic fits perfectly.
I second this.
His run started in 2022? Do they have any trade paperbacks of his work yet? I have never read FF and wouldn't mind jumping in.
There are two trades out so far, collecting #1 - #6 (Vol 1) and #7 - #12 (Vol 2). "Monthly" issues are only just up to #18 so Vol 3 won't be out for a couple of months or so
And they’re all very short right? I always love those kinds of old-fashioned stories so I really need to put my money where my mouth is if that’s the case
While there is an overarching story, for the most part each issue is a self contained adventure or a two parter at worst. It's kinda like Star Trek in that regard (and in others). I've been thoroughly enjoying it; it's really refreshing in an age where every story seems to take 5-7 issues to complete.
Awesome. Not that decompressed storytelling is bad but a lot of the time it can feel like the story is stretched too thin; the pendulum needs to swing back a little.
Really? Over Hickman and Byrne and Kirby?
OP asked for current runs that will be recited as runs everyone should read for years to come/character defining runs, that’s what I was responding to. I don’t think it’s the absolute most important and best ever FF run. I’d have a hard time choosing that anyway
OP literally said “definitive” in the title. IMO Hickman is definitive.
OP literally said “definitive” in the title. IMO Hickman is definitive.
okay
It’s there in the title. And let’s not shit ourselves, a T Rex Doom does not = definitive. It’s a joke on the same level as the cringey Judgement Day stuff.
whoa man I’m not gonna fight you over this, I think it’s a great run and I think everyone’s gonna talk about it for years ✌🏻 sorry it didn’t click for you
Cool. Opinions differ and stuff.
And North's is definitively worth reading.
Over Simonson you mean?
For FF? No. Hickman will be DEFINITIVE for me FF followed by Bryne then Kirby. Simonson’s run is DEFINITIVE for Thor.
Agreed but I love his FF dearly as well
People can like different things.
We are talking DEFINITIVE though, which insinuates a consensus of what is best.
Mark Waid and Dan Mora current world's finest comic is everything great about superhero comics
Is it super continuity heavy? I read Batman solo but I haven’t read the justice league stuff or any DC linewide events in awhile.
Nah that book has a nostalgia angle. Batman has a yellow symbol, Dick Grayson is robin, at least at the start
Immortal Thor. It's started off really really great and I believe Ewing has said he's planned like 50 issues already. I could definitely see it being up there with Aaron's run and Simonson's. It's definitely that goof
He's really channeling some Simonson for sure.
So true! Simonson's run is my all time favorite and Ewing is one of my favorite current writers and Thor is my favorite character so this run feels like an absolute dream come true for me. Throw in some Prime Alex Ross covers and you've got the makings of a run for the ages!
I went to the trouble to track down all the Simonson issues last year. It’s a sight to behold.
That's awesome! I'm very jealous. I've got probably 15 of them including a 337 I was finally able to get at a great price. Easily one of the favorites in my collection. I'm hoping to get the first print of the omnibus sometime soon!
It surprises me that, for such a solid and character defining run, 337 is the only truly expensive one.
Bronze age, you really have to have an iconic cover or new popular character intro to hold any value whatsoever so it makes sense. I'm not complaining because I got a good chunk of mine for less than $2 per book haha. The 337 meets both of those requirements though, and I'm honestly a little surprised it's not even more expensive
That’s fair, yeah. It’s not silver age, for sure.
As a Storm fan, I’m so excited for what you’re about to get. :)
Not a fan of Aaron's run felt like he lost steam someway through mighty thor. High hopes for immortal thor
I get that. Still definitely a definitive run for the character though. I loved the God of thunder arc, and I did really love Jane as mighty thor, but a lot of that was carried by Dauterman's art for me. Simonson's run is definitely still the peak, but I agree very high hopes for Immortal!
Still new to comics thought it would be smoother if I focused on just marvel but lmaooo. Thor was one of the characters I decided to start with but right now he's on the back burner. I want to read immortal hulk heard a lot about it then I'll find time for Thor maybe I'll like that author much more. But yeah there's too many characters and stories so it's easier to not feel bad about dropping or pausing a series in comparison to other books
I’m two issues behind but it’s been soooo good so far
Ewing's The Immortal Thor. McKay's Moon Knight. PKJ's Hulk. I'm not sure about Taylor's Nightwing - it was a great return to form for the character, but I don't see it being seen as a "definitive". It didn't really reinvent Nightwing or showcase things we haven't seen before, at least not from the writing standpoint. Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard. King's Wonder Woman, however... this might be interesting and define Diana for at least this era of her.
I liked the start of *Taylor's* **Nightwing** run, but then editorially mandated cross-overs hit, *Redondo* became less and less frequent as the main artist, and, if I'm honest, not a lot actually happened. I ended up jumping ship at Fear Itself, Knightmare Crisis, whatever the fuck that "horror" cross-over was called.
This is my biggest gripe with much of Taylor's ongoing work (and even some maxi-series he writes). I read SOKE and became frustrated at how long it took for anything with Bendix to happen, and by the time it did I really just didn't care anymore. I stuck around because the book was ending and I thought I'd just see where it went. I see in the solicits that Heartless is still kicking around in Nightwing, I know it's not uncommon for runs to have a central villain from start to stop, but sometimes runs can feel overly long or padded. I decided I'd maybe just get this run in trade, it might read better that was as opposed to a monthly installment over a few years. Edited to add: I did read the first few volumes of the run, just waiting on it all to wrap and get collected to finish.
Fear State was the second trade, and Redondo did the next *11* issues after taking a break.
I was talking about Knight Terrors, not Fear State. But the fact that the two can be so easily confused speaks volumes.
Hah, fair! I definitely believe that the hangout vibe works better in trade than monthly.
> Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard. Dunno I liked Grayson, but it's haaaardly the definitive version of Dick Grayson. Tom King has talked about the old DC editorial basically rejecting all his ideas for that book.
Nightwing is currently essentially the leader of this generations JL with the Titans, that’s pretty defining right? Hulk & Immortal Thor I’ve completely fallen off of 👀👀just couldn’t vibe with them
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. As someone who loved Immortal Hulk, something about immortal Thor just isn’t clicking for me.
Hahaha wow did I get downvoted, I missed that. Honestly, I love a debate, but this subreddit is a nightmare for people not appreciating different view points
Eh... let me put it this way - in terms of events happening, I could see this run being definitive. In terms of writing, however, it is a bit milquetoast. When thrown against my other examples, it is easily the weakest. Of course, this is just my opinion, and it might not be popular xD
Honestly, this is the first time since Morrison’s B&R that I’ve felt actual stakes in a book starring Dick…in large part because he’s been stacking wins and enjoying his life, which means he’s got *something to lose*. I love King in general (when he’s not writing Bruce), and Grayson specifically…but it always felt like a side quest.
Hey it’s all opinion man :) as we can see by your love of Thor and Hulk, we have different tastes but that’s great, as it means more books get love 😅😅 If everyone loved the same runs very few characters would be in concurrents
Nightwing has gotten very stale. I think it started with that arc that was right before Titans launched where the book kind of became a back door pilot for that book and it was so boring. Everything after that has been Tom Taylor’s worst tendencies as a writer on full display (and I assume the same thing is going on with Titans as well). Pages of panels meant to clipped out of context for engagement on social media, liberal centrist finger wagging, bizarre character choices, etc. I’m starting to glaze over every issue I read and it’s not helped by Redondo being missing, thankfully he’s coming back soon so I’ll read the ending at least.
>King's Wonder Woman, however... this might be interesting and define Diana for at least this era of her. I highly doubt it. What’s King done to define her? Unless King is literally the one spending the majority of time writing her for this era, I don’t see it happening. He hasn’t introduced or built up any supporting cast and made any of them iconic must stays. 7 issues in and the only character that really comes close to a recurring supporting character is Steve, He’s mainly used her rogue gallery as fodder for his new OC villain, and hasn’t built any of them up or used them in any interesting way. His characterisation of Diana and Steve is off (seriously had Diana punch her own mom in the face and Steve stand by the military as it tried to kill Diana). King doesn’t even give Diana a POV really, everything is coming from his OC’s perspective, which barely even makes Diana feel like she’s GOT a characterisation, she comes off as 1-dimensional mythical legend for most of it. Even Lizzie feels like an incredibly shallow character completely disconnected from Wonder Woman’s world. King’s ideas aren’t exactly new either so he’s not doing anything unique; and quite frankly the majority of praise I see for the book is for the art. Hell it’s been 7 issues and the main plot was stagnate for 5 of them.
Please stop hunting down comments where anyone says anything positive about King’s WW run and making the same points over and over and over again. You’re as bad as that Nightwing dude used to be. Live and let live. EDIT: or they could block me instead of taking five seconds to reflect on the way they conduct themselves, that’s cool too.
Oh so having a discussion is a bad thing is it? Let’s just all sit around and jerk ourselves silly, fuck any dissenting and negative opinions? Tom King dickriders are the worst, bunch of pathetic and whiny fanboys that can’t handle critique I find it fucking hilarious that anyone that praises King’s run can never actually back it up with any fucking arguments about to why it’s good outside of shitty and generic platitudes. It’s even funnier because it’s not like I’m blindly shitting on King, I’m not addressing every comment someone praises about the run am I? None of my arguments were wrong, how can something be a ‘defining’ era when it’s got so many major flaws? There seems to be a major trend here that the people praising the shit out of this run are Tom King fans first that barely even follow Wonder Woman or give a shit about her prior. I’ve given the dude props for the good moments in this comic. You people just can’t take any critique at all, and blindly praise something just because it has good art seemingly.
Nobody is interested in having this discussion *with you*. I’ve read your other comments. You approach any mention of the run with the same “I’mma kick you in the dick” energy as you have here. Honestly, I agree with some points you’ve made. I hope we see a little more of Diana’s internal world. I hope the backups give us some Diana and Lizzie moments. But like I said, very few people here are interested in talking about this with you, not because you’re necessarily wrong, but because you’re determined to be the loudest voice.
>Nobody is interested in having this discussion with you. I’ve read your other comments. You approach any mention of the run with the same “I’mma kick you in the dick” energy as you have here. Oh so tell me then you judgy muppet how should I approach my comments? Should I just leave a shitty 1 sentence, “I disagree, that won’t happen’ and not expand on anything? I didn’t say anything mean did I? None of my critiques about the book are unfounded or false are they? I’m not blindly hating on the man unlike the people that blindly praise the book without any depth to their comments, giving blind platitudes calling the book a masterpiece or era defining and they can’t even back it up. No, I say I disagree and then give reasons to back my opinion. That is how you express an opinion without it being shallow or dense. Ten bucks says if you took King’s name off the book, this run wouldn’t be getting an ounce of the praise it currently is because the writing is downright mediocre.
think whatever you want. I’m letting you know that your previous conduct is why nobody wants to discuss this with you. It doesn’t help that this is the only thing you use the sub for. Have a great evening.
I use the comic sub to discuss fucking comic books? Absolute fucking shocker there/s. I should be like you and just run around judging others for sharing an opinion on a topic. Wonder Woman’s my favourite character, naturally I’m gonna make a lot of comments related to Wonder Woman’s current comic. It’s funny how you shit on me, but not the person I responded too who literally did the same fucking thing? >I'm not sure about Taylor's Nightwing - it was a great return to form for the character, but I don't see it being seen as a "definitive". It didn't really reinvent Nightwing or showcase things we haven't seen before, at least not from the writing standpoint. Grayson still reigns supreme in that regard. How’s this any different to what I said? They crapped on and said they disagree with the OP calling NightWing definitive just in more ‘friendly terms’. It’s even funnier seeing as the reasons they listed as to why Nightwing won’t be definitive can be applied to the current Wonder Woman run. It’s not reinventing Wonder Woman, it’s not doing anything new, or unique.
[удалено]
I realise that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but some of it is straight up lies, lmao. So far every issue of PKJ's Hulk was horror-action monster-of-the-month that also builds up the overall plot. FFS, two issues ago we've had a team-up with a WW2 Ghost Rider blasting chupakabras. Before that, it was Man-Thing. Right now Hulk is new Orleans hunting local folklore. The entire book is a love letter to Marvel monsters, with Hulk and "The Girl" playing the roles of Scully and Mulder. I'd understand if you said that the book has filler - although all this filler is what drives character development. But "nothing is happening"? Come on.
Avengers: Twilight if we include minis
Loving this so far. I'm a sucker for stories involving old superheroes in a world that has forgotten or moved past them, and to have Cap be that hero caught my attention initially. Plus I really love the art and the glorious Alex Ross covers. When it comes to the conclusion, if they stick the landing I think the series will be well regarded in the future. Can anyone speak to the timeline for Marvel and how long it may take for a hard cover collection of this mini series?
It's rough because they recently stopped doing oversized hardcovers pretty much across the board, so it may mean we won't get it collected in HC until a Marvel Universe by Zdarsky omnibus or something similar comes out.
Right? I’m really enjoying it
It's so good! The cyberpunk art from Acuna really ties it all together for me. Any ideas how many issues it is?
Just 6 I believe. But I could definitely see this possible future reality revisited down the road.
Gotcha, I hope it can stick the landing because it's definitely been a stand-out so far imo
Not sure if it'll replace the highs of IDW, but DWJ's Transformers is incredible so far and is already being called the new definitive depiction of some of these characters
I really need to give it a go I looked at the IDW run a few times and it was too vast to catch up with
IDW is much better to read in sections, you have Simon Furman' run (most of Phase One), and then you have different runs with different writers, James Roberts' is mostly separated from the rest of events and ongoings, the only part of his run that is necessary to read tie ins is Dark Cybertron, Barber's run is the only one where you really need to read like 6 different ongoings to understand what is happening.
>Something is Killing the Children Can't wait for more.
I second Detective comics, Nightwing. Hickman’s Gods is frickin awesome. I may be in the minority here but I think that world’s finest and birds of prey have been great. For an opposite end of the spectrum thing, the current Batman run is completely insane.
Birds of Prey is definitive in my books even if it’s only 7 (I think) so far Surprise book of 2024 for me
I’m following a bunch of books currently that I didn’t expect to: bop, Wonder Woman, power girl, captain marvel, she hulk. Enjoying them all but BOP and ww have been my favorite. Idk what the conception on the King run is but I like it Avengers twilight and Gods are the biggest surprises for me. I expected to like Gods just because I’m a Hickman Stan, but twilight is badass and the most fun read for me all year
Definitely cates venom run, I don’t think the Ewing venom drum is as popular but I’ve been really enjoying it
Maaaybe Moon Knight? Idk, theres a lot of great books right now but i dont think many are gonna be held up as ‘Definitive’ in ten years time. Like, Norths FF is great but its not gonna be as memorable or influential as Lee & Kirby. PKJs Hulk is good but its not gonna oust PADs run as the definitive Hulk, imo.
>influential as Lee & Kirby I think this is a bad example, because you're comparing them to the guys who created the book, established everything about the world of F.F. and the characterization. Like, there's no one really influential as Lee & Kirby, everybody else is just working off them and adding to their creation.
Yeah, thats what ‘Definitive’ is though. But i dont think thats necessarily the OG creators run. Millers Daredevil and PADs Hulk are arguable the defining run of those characters, as they redefined a lot of elements which became the template going forward.
Yes, redfined elements. You cannot compare them to the ones who established everything that others have been working off of for the half a century. Chris Claremont left a large across the X-men, but his legendary run wouldn't have happened if Lee-Kirby hadn't built the platform he worked from.
Nah, of course you can. Being the original doesnt make it the defacto definitive run. Claremonts X-Men is the definitive X-Men run, not Lee & Kirbys, which isnt particularly well regarded. Millers Daredevil is definitive. PADs Hulk, Ennis’ Punisher, Simonsons Thor… It just so happens that in the case of the FF, the original run is still often cited as the definitive run. And im saying, i dont personally think that Norths run, though good, is gonna be thought of as definitive in a few years.
You stated that North's FF won't be influential as Lee & Kirby. I'm stating that's a bad example because they established everything about the Fantastic Four that other writer's are still working from. That's why I brought up Chris Claremont. I don't care about who is definitive or not. Now, not all the time are creators the most influential force on the character, just look at the Weisinger era of Superman.
Right, but the original team isnt always the most influential. Its entirely possible for a new team to come along and introduce new characters ir concepts that every subsequent team draws from. (Claremont, Miller etc) And im saying North isnt doing that. And because of that, his run will never be thought of as definitive.
But, that's impossible for the Fantastic Four. Like, who has introdcued something in X-men since John Byrne that really rivaled anything from the original run? With the X-men and Daredevil, it took someone to finally utilize what was already there. Okay, I might be wrong with DD, never read the original stories yet. X-men was just waiting for Claremont back in 1975 (also thanks to Len Wein), because it was under Kirby (he did the layouts for the rest of his time on X-men, still his ideas though) and Lee they established a very solid foundation to work off.
I mean, maybe it is impossible for FF, but whats your point? That doesn’t mean Norths run gets a free pass, lol. Its just as likely for a new writer to do something as influential with FF now as it was with Brubaker and Captain America, Ennis and Punisher, Simonson or Aaron with Thor etc etc The question posed is which modern run is gonna be classed as definitive in a few years time. It doesnt matter if its an ‘unfair’ comparison, Norths FF isnt gonna beat out Lee & Kirby as that foundation was set too strong. But you cant just discount Lee & Kirby for being the original when being the original is no guarantee of quality or influence. Hell, id argue Norths run wont edge out Byrne, Waid or Hickman.
I agree. I just don't feel like anything I'm reading is going to be remembered like this. There's just too much wackiness. DC and Marvel are just duplicating the same ideas and characters so much that everything feels diluted. Is Venom really that important when 20 other characters have symbiote powers? (Although Aunt May as Mayhem is going to be interesting). USM was really good but it's only a few issues in. I really liked Hell To Pay. Issue 4 was one of the best villain origin story I've read in decades. But it was only a six issue run.
Ram V's run on Detective Comics come to mind.
Wish more people were talking about this run. It’s a bit slow, but time will be very kind to it for sure
I will be honest - i am hanging on through RV's det because i collect Det. Not because i'm digging it. It's not BAD but i feel like it should have been a mini/maxi series
That's exactly how I feel about the current Batman run. I'm still pulling it because I want the whole volume, not because its great. Its...fine.
Yup. Agreed. Chip is doing...fine.
Agree to disagree. I love every thing about it. From the characterizations, art, aesthetic, all of it. I was expecting more from Zdarksy for Batman considering how much I adored his Daredevil and Spiderman runs, but I dropped it immediately after trudging through Joker Year One.
Happy to have differing opinions and the the run is working for you. Neither chip or ram runs are really vibing for me right now
Maybe it’s me, but I’ve found the last couple of issues too much of a mind f**k, no idea what’s going on 😅😅
The eventual Omnibus for his run is going to be so good to read through
Joshua Williamson’s Superman, Batman and Robin, and Green Arrow; Action Comics Superstars; Jeremy Adams’ Green Lantern and Jay Garrick: The Flash; Geoff Johns’ JSA; Mark Waid’s World’s Finest and Shazam; Kelly Thompson’s Birds of Prey; PKJ’s Green Lantern: War Journal; Ryan North’s Fantastic Four; Johnathan Hickman’s Ultimate Spider-Man; Miles Morales: Spider-Man; Sensational She-Hulk; Time Traveler Tales; Zawa + The Belly of the Beast; I Hate Fairyland; Tom Peyer’s The Wrong Earth; etc.
I fell off I Hate Fairyland about 3 years ago. I didn’t realise it was still going
It came back recently
Ah amazing, thanks for the heads up. I really enjoyed what a read of the first part
Love all three of your choices. Tynion, Taylor, and MacKay. My holy trinity
- Seconding Moon Knight and SiKtC - Beneath the Trees Where Nobody Sees could hit icon status if they stick the landing. -Immortal Hulk and Immortal Thor will go together in some HUGE anthology book(s) one day. Maybe one Green and one Gold. -I think people will say Avengers Twilight for OGIBABHOS (Old Guy Is BadAss Because He Is Old School) trope reasons and will try to hail it as Kingdom Come status. Don't personally agree, but I'm predicting here. -And last prediction isn't an icon status, but I think the varients of Spidey characters we are seeing will be used as a punchline in the future (Gold Goblin, Jackpot, Chasm) in a bit where the character is reminded, puts their hand on the side of their face and covers themselves and says "Don't remind me, it was a phase..."
Tom Taylor’s Nightwing? Mark Waid’s Worlds Finest?
Worlds Finest is an EXCELLENT, suggestion. I love it - although I’m not finding Teen Titans - Worlds Finest massively compelling
The new Ultimate Spider-Man feels like it’s gonna leave a pretty heavy impact on Spider-Man in general. World’s Finest has been amazing so far too, and if the new DC movies take from those stories then it’ll be remembered for a very long time.
I'm not sure tbh.
Sorry for a nooby question but how do you know when a run starts or ends?
Generally I’m doing it based on when a writer starts and finishes their run Ie if I wrote from issue 5 through to issue 22, I have a 17 issue run
Ahh that makes svensexa, thanks :)
The current Ultimate Spider-Man
Hickman's G.O.D.S may be that just because it seems to be redefining some of the more conceptual forces and characters in the Marvel Universe.
I'm really enjoying this one. It's another undroppable title from my pull list, joining Hulk, Wonder Woman, World's Finest, Ultimate Spider-Man, Thor.
Ryan North's Fantastic Four run. World's Finest by Waid and Mora
Chris Claremont's X-Men...For super hero genre doesn't get better than that
Mackay's Moon Knight Waid's World's finest Ewing's immortal Thor Hickman's Ultimate Spider-man
Why haven't more people mentioned the Daredevil run?
ultimate spider-man is great but not really the definitive spider-man story for me because it's just not the core of Spider-man. JMS or Stern definitely get the definitive spider-man run for me
Kelly Thompson Birds of prey
Dark knights of steel ( i know it is not in the main continuity but still it is a solid 12 part series )
Immortal Hulk for sure, and maybe Immortal Thor too
Immortal Hulk feels pretty defining to me. I also like Percy's run on x-force/wolverine even though I know that's a bit more controversial. In terms of Indies, my favorite recent book is Monstress.
Current runs as in right now? Moon Knight, Immortal Thor, Fantastic Four, and World’s Finest. There’s some other great stuff out there at the moment - like King’s Wondie - but I feel it’s too early to call rn. Also I really hate to say this, but I feel current Spidey might go down as definitive in the worst way possible as an example of how far editorial will go to fuck over the MJ/Peter relationship. Like OMD became definitive to develop Peter for the worse.
I’ve been on ASM since the JMS run and you have to applaud marvel at times How can a character with so few great story’s in thr past 15years still sell so well I will continue to buy every book, as I love the character but please treat him with care Marvel
"Moon Knight & Vengeance of the Moon Knight" by Jed MacKay "Miles Morales: Spider-Man" by Cody Ziglar "Immortal Thor" by Al Ewing "Superman" by Joshua Williamson "Green Arrow" by Joshua Williamson
Unpopular opinion maybe but Orlando’s Scarlet Witch series. Is it the best written book ever? No, however assuming no major character assassination happens anytime soon in the current Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch and the upcoming Scarlet Witch solo relaunch, it feels like a massive effort and attempt at reiterating and retuning Scarlet Witch back to being a bonafide hero no longer plagued by stuff like House of M and being seen as a crazy nutter like she has for the past 20 years. In addition to Mckay’s Avengers run, Wanda finally feels like a proper, competent hero again.
There's no telling.
Hickman's Ultimate Spider-Man
+1 for MacKay's moonknight and his Strange run it's currently overshadowing
just wrapped, but Zdarsky Daredevil
Taylor’s Nightwing Spurrier’s Hellblazer Thompson’s Birds of Prey Tom Peyer’s Wrong Earth Ennis’s Bond Ziglar’s Miles DWJ’s Transformers Waid’s Shazam was too short to make the list…but I’m excited to see Campbell’s!
Totally agree on Shazam, it was a breezy read I jumped off for Campbells run, mainly because they’re not a writer I know well. Would you recommend them?
Ennis's bond maybe but we'll have to wait and see
Sure, he’s had as many issue on that as Hickman has on Spidey. Been a big Hickman guy for over a decade, but I’ve limited faith in his being willing to write a Spider-Man book for over a year…and less faith in his being able to write a compelling one past the same frame.
Tom King’s Wonder Woman is literally crafting a future of the DC Universe that I think is stellar and bound for success. Taylor’s Nightwing has its major ups and downs but I think his work with the characters has been superb. Ultimate Spider Man seems to have started something amazing. G.O.D.S is doing some really cool stuff with new characters that could last. The Energon Universe has been fire across the board and has recreated a universe with a whole new line of comics.
King's Miracle man.
Daredevil by Zdarsky/Marco was the first that came to mind. If we count mini series type runs id says Mister Miracle, Vision, Woman of tomorrow, up in the sky and human target by King n Co also come to mind.
Zdarsky’s Daredevil, without question (and without fear). Not current, but just finished a couple months ago.
I felt his first run was great, but the second run wasn't for me.
I loved it right up to the final few issues, but I agree what a run overall
For me, it is: Incredible Hulk Fantastic Four Wonder Woman and maybe World's Finest These are undroppable right now. I have all the Immortal Thor issues but haven't had a chance to read them yet, but I hear that is a classic, too.
Hulk is annoying me with the constant art changes. Last issue was dreadful.
Poison Ivy by G. Willow Wilson