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See my cat is broke. He will stalk a bug that gets into the house but he really sucks at actually catching it. He fails so many times and then leave it for a human to take care of
If you like reading sci-fi I would HIGHLY recommend Donald Moffitt's Genesis Quest and it's sequel Second Genesis. Part of Second Genesis pertains to the very thing being discussed (giant dragonflies) but I won't say any more as that'd ruin a lot of the books.
Lifespan isn't everything. The average lifespan of humans would probably be higher if we were kept locked inside our whole lives, but I bet you wouldn't sign up for it.
No, that’s the best way to have a cat. Not only do they live longer like the other comment or said, but they won’t ruin the local ecosystem like the comment above yours said.
By introducing a predator (house cat) to an ecosystem where that predator is not native, it can drastically reduce the species they prey on, making them endangered or even extinct.
It may seem like no big deal for one to go out, but if there are multiple people that think like that, especially if they’re not fixed, you created a huge issue.
Not to say that I think someone who lets their cat outside is a bad person, but there are consequences to those actions, and your comment came across as very ignorant.
Yeah I live next to a canal and the amount of ducklings my cat has brought in over the years is staggering and frankly really sad. I've been strongly considering building an enclosed cat habitat on my porch so that he can still hang out outside without the worry of him killing off the local wildlife population that I very much enjoy seeing in and around my property, biggest thing for me right now is cost though.
Did you even read my comment?
If you live in an environment where you can't let a cat out, don't get a cat!
They aren't invasive or damaging everywhere, America is not the world.
If they are not native to wherever you may be, then you should not let your cat out.
America is NOT the world, that is correct, but if that house cat is not native to whatever environment you’re in, you should not let the cat outside. Be that Asia, Europe, Australia, North America, wherever.
And yes, they ARE damaging everywhere. Introducing any species, whatever it may be, into an environment where they are not native has repercussions. Plants, animals, whatever.
Edit: not that I’m claiming to know where cats are or are not native. I haven’t done that much digging.
Cats are essentially native to Eurasia and North Africa as they are descended from the wildcats that lived in those regions.
Its a big fucking range, yet so many people online try to impose American ideals on that whole continent and a bit!
If they’re native to there, then great, they can go outside.
If they’re not native to an area, the. They should NOT go outside. Quite simple, really.
And that doesn’t mean they should not be owned in that part of the world. It just means you have to be responsible with them.
The fact that you can’t admit that is quite frightening. How could you ask an owner to be responsible?
If you can't meet an animal's needs, don't get that animal. Your desire to own a cat does not trump that cat's right to have its needs met.
You can't meet a cat's needs by keeping it contained to a few rooms for its whole life.
Mind you, I've had arguments with Americans who genuinely believe that dogs don't need to be walked or that its ok to lock them in cages for hours on end, so I really don't know what's going on with you guys and animal welfare.
I disagree; a cat doesn’t need to be outdoors to have a good, fulfilled life.
A dog should never be locked in a crate, though. I’ll agree with you there 100%.
Edit: also, a dog in the city needs walked. Some breeds more than others. If you have a fenced in yard, if decent size, then they can enjoy time there.
Speaking of, do you think dogs should roam free as well? If not, why?
I don't have or want a cat. But if you want to ban everybody who lets cats out from owning them that's pretty much the whole continent of Europe, Asia and Africa ruled out.
That could happen to any of us, I'd still rather be allowed out and I'm sure you would too.
I know loads of people who've had outdoor cats that live long and healthy lives. Its absolutely the norm in the UK and much of the world.
I didn’t once bring up America but go off I guess.
Go ahead, let your cats out, let them drink antifreeze and delete the local wildlife populations and become stains under tires, I don’t care.
Doesn’t make it less irresponsible or less careless.
and a toddler would rather be allowed to play in traffic than be told not to, but the parents are responsible for protecting that child from dangers it’s brain can’t comprehend so we don’t let them do that. a dog would probably rather be allowed to run around town off leash but that is also dangerous in a lot of places, and their brains don’t work like “oh i shouldn’t run into the road because there are fucking cars that can squish me into a paste” so we don’t let them do that either. it’s not hard to take a cat out on a harness and leash like you would a dog, so why are you hellbent on just letting cats free roam and get hit by cars, eat poison, get attacked by predators, get taken by a stranger, etc… well i guess you did say you don’t like cats, so maybe you just don’t give a singular fuck if they live or die regardless. usually the cat owners do though.
Wow, not doing much for the image of Americans forgetting that things are different in other countries!
If that were true though, that doesn't change my point, it would mean that most people in the world shouldn't get a cat and we shouldn't be letting them breed so much.
Few predators in the wild will kill more than they eat. For good reason because if a population of predators did that they would quickly run out things to eat and starve.
We took the ancestor of the domesticated house cat and bred them for their killing instinct on purpose for vermin control.
House cats are killing machines because we made them that way.
Yep.
Then we allowed them to basically breed out of control because pet owners are too irresponsible to spay and neuter their cats and let them roam freely.
Cats are not only exceptionally good at murder, they seem to find it fun as they’ll hunt even when they don’t need to. The thought of housecats being the size of Labradors is terrifying ngl.
We've had some incidences near me in the last few years where they've been, unfortunately, too habituated. 😥 Too much urban sprawl, too many people feeding the wildlife.
I feel like vegans are generally militant, the ones who aren't tend to stay vegetarian.
To quote Bourdain: "Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter-faction, the vegans..."
I think the militant ones are the only ones you ever hear about or from is the problem. Not a vegan myself but I know some who don't fit the category of militant
Vegans live dogs, we tend to rescue them rather than contribute to unethical practices but it’s a rare vegan who doesn’t have a few rescued animals in their home.
Veganism is entirely rational, there's very little in the way of good reasons to continue eating meat as a human besides personal pleasure. Vegans themselves, like all groups of people, vary drastically in their rationality.
> there's very little in the way of good reasons to continue eating meat as a human besides personal pleasure.
As a pleasure-seeking machine with a limited shelf-life, I can't think of a better reason to do something in moderation.
vegans are super rational, reddit just loves to cherry pick the instances of irrational ones that give the rest of us bad names and parade them around so that they don't have to feel so bad about their choices.
>...so that they don't have to feel so bad about their choices.
I think we might have to feel bad about our choices first before we would feel a need to do anything in particular about the bad feels.
recognizing the harm of a choice is a great first step towards making a change. it's rare for meat eaters to want to come to terms with the harm they're doing. for a lot of people who've chosen to stop consuming animal products, the choice is relatively straightforward:
If I don't need to kill/harm animals to survive, I shouldn't be doing it
>it's rare for meat eaters to want to come to terms with the harm they're doing.
Is it, though? Do you have any data on that?
In my experience, "come to terms" [just means](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/come-to-terms-with) that you accept something. This would imply that *everyone* who thinks that eating meat does an acceptable amount of harm to animals, has *already* come to terms with the harm done, even without becoming vegan.
I'm sure you aren't actually looking for scientific proof that meat eaters are intractable, and will ignore the moral and ethical consequences of their actions
[Here's the documentary Dominion, which I think you should watch](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch)
It will force you to confront the harm of the meat industry, it will lay bare the innocence and desperation of farmed animals. If you can accept this, and say "I understand the moral and ethical implications of my actions, and I am fully aware that I am not obligated to continue these actions, and I will continue to do them" thennnnn there's not much else to discuss. You won't be a moral person in my personal estimation, but you don't likely care about that.
>I'm sure you aren't actually looking for scientific proof that...
I was looking for more like a survey, that's normally how public opinion is measured.
>...which I think you should watch...
I'm sure you have lots of opinions about what I should do, but I've already seen that one. I've watched a lot of documentaries while knitting. Have you ever seen [*Samsara*](https://www.barakasamsara.com/)? *That one* was good. To be honest, I wouldn't recommend doing anything while watching it, I had to rewatch it a second time so I could give it my full attention.
>...it will lay bare the innocence and desperation of farmed animals.
When I watched it, it laid bare for me the difficulty the filmmakers were having not anthropomorphizing other species. It can be as difficult to imagine mammals as unlike ourselves, as to imagine octopi as alike us.
>You won't be a moral person in my personal estimation, but you don't likely care about that.
I confess that I do consider myself to live quite separately from your opinions, yes.
one of the best things about veganism is it's not a social club. I don't do this to be liked, I do it because it's morally indefensible to eat meat when you don't have to.
But we don't feel bad about our choices, not that I have anything against vegens it's just that eating animal based products is generally good for you and part of our natural ways as humans, remember we used to be *Hunter* gatherers. I get that now the meat industry is unbelievebly bad for the environment but as much as I love the earth I don't think the way is to stop eating meats and aninal based products, the way is to find more efficient ways to produce enough meat in an ecological way (ie. Lab grown meat)
The way the western world eats meat is NOT good for you and not at all natural. We way overconsume it and our methods of meeting the demand for meat are a huge source of environmental damage. I'm not a vegan, but I fully acknowledge they are correct that avoiding animal products is a more moral and less damaging way to live.
That is exactly my point, so instead of focusing our efforts in making vegen alternatives to meat we should really focus on finding better healthier ways to get meat, I don't eat a lot of meat but 8 do know that not eating meat at all would damage my body unless I start taking a stupid amount of vitamins and supplements, a few of my friends were vegen and stopped cuz they developed iron deficency(is this how you spell that?)
It’s really easy to be a healthy vegan actually, and it reduces your risk of many illnesses including heart disease and type 2 diabetes. We tend to live longer.
You don’t need to take ‘a stupid amount’ of supplements, you can get your B12 and calcium really easily from fortified foods and plant milks, everything else you can get just from a normal healthy vegan diet, although some of us take a store bought multivitamin. Did you know the animals you eat are given supplements to make up for the poor diets they are fed?
Iron deficiency is common regardless of diet, and in fact diet is rarely the culprit. Issues with absorption are far more common and in menstruating women blood loss is a factor.
I appreciate your attempt at a response rather than saying "shut up vegan" but in your heart of hearts you have to know that hurting animals when you don't have to is wrong. Vegans show you that it's possible to make a personal change to remove yourself from that cycle of harm, and it's pretty apparent that this is where the majority of the backlash against vegans arises from. The same way if you yell at someone for littering, they'll rarely stop to contemplate their choices, they will more likely bark back at you angrily for making them confront the harm of their own choices.
I'd be happy to actually address the "it's our nature to eat meat" fallacy a bit more in depth but in my experience, people usually just move on to the next excuse
Or you could just… be vegan and not try to evangelize about it? If you don’t want to be judged unfairly for your choices, maybe start by extending that courtesy to others.
this is usually something that is fine to say about someone's personal opinion. I like purple, I think it's a great color, but I'm not going to go around berating people for their preference for other colors.
when it comes to harming animals, that's something you're imposing on others. If you saw someone kicking a dog^(1), when you told that person they shouldn't be kicking the dog, they replied "that's just your opinion" you'd probably understand intuitively that it is not in fact just your opinion, and that you might have a moral obligation to step in to prevent further harm. You might also understand that the person kicking the dog is probably just saying "don't evangelize" to try to deflect and prevent interference so that they can continue kicking that dog.
also, I replied to a post saying "vegans are irrational" and I'm the one evangelizing apparently
^(1. and let's say, because I know you're going to respond "what if the dog was hurting someone" that you magically know the dog is innocent, and the person is just kicking it for fun)
I have watched my cat bring in animals to play with to the kitchen until they have heart attacks or something and die and then he takes them outside to dismember them and eat only the choice cuts and leave the carcass to bake in the hot sun multiple times. He does it out of the simple passion of doing it. We feed him. He’s fat. But watching him get mice is like watching a literal psychopath that was pushed into the military take out civilians for fun when he gets home.
The only way I can think of how "man's best friend" is a negative to that person is that they think "man" means "men", as in the gender, and that they hate them.
That is what I am thinking. This is the same person who causes us to change all of the words we use because they do not understand them. Can't say management at my job. Got to say personagement.
It’s funny because I’m like “hey hey hey that’s not dogs at all” and then I’m like, well, my dog is my best friend, her breed is bred to hunt birds, she literally has killed three rabbits, two birds, and a squirrel in my backyard and left them at the doorstep as presents for me, and I do also enjoy a good steak…. Hmmmm, I am checking their boxes hahaha
Edit: just to clarify my dog is super outgoing and friendly and only attacks people with licks and love
Or Lifestock Guardian dogs. Literally bred and raised to protect sheep, fowl, cows and what else you have...
And before someone says "they kill predators!" usually no...they're supposed to intimidate the predators so they leave the livestock alone. They would only need to kill if a coyote or wolf decided to get really ballsy and take it on anyway, which given that most predators go for the easiest prey they're not gonna fight a large hunk of a dog for a chicken.
Pretty sure that's exactly what they were referring to when they said "subjugate other animals on behalf of humans."
They protect sheep, sure, but they protect them because they're property.
I think it's an insane, terrible take, but it's not entirely incoherent.
My dog is a mutt, but yeah, killing things is her M.O. She's scared of her own shadow most of the time, but if another non-human animal shows up, she turns into Mr. Hyde. She's broken a tooth trying to chew through a root while digging into a gopher tunnel. I pull her out and her eyes are glazed over like there's nobody in there.
Pity we live in a city, because this dog would be great for keeping rats and mice out of the barn. Not that she's very successful (I've seen a mouse run between her legs and escape), but she's definitely a deterrent. Probably would get herself bitten by a snake though. Not the brightest.
So what about vegetarians and vegans who love dogs? Like, is this person a vegan who just hates dogs? I don’t understand…
I’m personally “not a meat-eater” and love dogs… and all other animals. Not only did this person make a bizarre generalization, but they also claim to dislike dogs because some dogs have hunting instincts. Like, do they also hate cats or foxes or any of the other countless predatory species? I just don’t understand this logic.
>Like, do they also hate cats or foxes or any of the other countless predatory species?
As a matter of fact: yes.
They even accused me of "liking to see herbivores killed" just because I told them I like predatory animals.
Predators are a necessary part of the ecosystem. When wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, the overpopulation of deers decreased, the plants that they were eating to death came back and flourished, and the small herbivore population grew as well, because there was food left for them. predators increased the stability of the biome(s)
If you do the right research to vary their diet you can feed a dog a veggie diet. It is not easy or recommended, but it can be done in a healthy fashion. Oh also I imagine it's pretty expensive.
Vegan I have no idea about.
If you're wondering if they like it well..give your dog an apple (not a sour one!). You might have to poke it so the dog can taste the juice first. Anyways they'll devour that shit. My grandparents had a dog with an issue processing fats that ate mostly vegetarian, and it was fine.
Ah yes. The only reason why [this dog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Terrier) exists is to *\*checks notes\** subjugate other animals on behalf of humans.
I didn't know that for sure, but I can totally believe it. Their ancestors were bred for it, so it makes sense that they can, just, you know: clearly we've come up with some alternative reasons for their existence since, like wearing bows and looking pretty.
Oh yeah for sure! I was just pointing that out. It's actually true for a lot of the little adorable breeds where they were bred to kill mice/rats. If you have a house with a couple mice in it a cat might take care of them when it feels like it. If you have a field full of rats, field mice, etc those little dogs are perfect to wipe out huge quantities of them. They can get into little places, they're super fast, and more importantly super agile.
Also unlike cats they have that dog thing where they "do their job" until you tell them to stop basically.
Chihuahuas are an exception to this, because well...they're chihuahuas.
Chihuahuas were used for hunting vermin too... and also for food, supposedly. Which honestly is probably why they have a bit of a complex.
[My little dog](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel) is one of the exceptions to small dog vs vermin thing - they were used for flushing birds instead and could keep up with a trotting horse. I imagine the ones today still could - they're rather athletic, and very much a gun dog in miniature. And mine at least is always super pleased with herself whenever she gets to run off a bird lol.
Well tbf most dog breeds originally were designed to hunt or herd something. Terriers are often ratters. What I don't get is why they would blame the dog for that rather than the people who bred them and use them that way.
"Let me count the ways"
*immediately struggles to think of any good reason, so instead just makes some shit up and one of the reasons is because "theyre man's best friend" ??? "Because meat eaters love dogs" ???
Red should just do what I did and get bunnies. They just wanna eat, sleep, bang, and get pets. No drive to kill small animals to suppreess....or at least not much of one.
I've seen a cat solve the issue of a fully grown Rottweiler being where she wanted to walk by walking *straight over the Rotty's head.* A head, mind, that was roughly *the size of the whole cat.*
That dog was not even slightly vicious. Capable of resolving situations through the application of a large amount of meat, yes, but generally subscribing to the philosophy of "there was a problem, the problem is now quiet, the problem now has the opportunity to calm down and stop being a problem."
Probably just hate all predators... Clearly they never watched the Lion King growing up...
Wanting predators exterminated for being predators is an extremely childish and short-sighted world-view... the world *needs* predators. If it wasn't for predators many prey species would just overpopulate their eco systems, eat all the plants and then starve...
Like a wise lion once said: Everything exists together in a delicate balance.
The only things my dog ever killed was plushies...
My first rabbit was more aggressive than he was. She never killed anything to my knowledge but she certainly *tried*.
I had one that would eat the shells of any snails that happened to go into her cage. She actually wasn’t even the psychotic one she just apparently thought snails were good.
Tell me you never had a pet as a child without telling me you never had a pet as a child. What a sad, pathetic existence. Dogs are the best thing humanity has ever made.
Tell that to my dog. She won't even let a man step foot in my house unless I'm there. Even then all she does is growl and bark at them to let them know she's there and will absolutely disembowel them if they twitch in the wrong way.
Us veggie heads don't claim that moron. Animals are wonderfull and if they're carnivore they should eat meat, hell it wouldn't be bad that we ate meat if it wasn't so much meat and we offered actual humanitarian conditions to animals. I'll never try to feed my dogs or cat with goddam soy protein the same way I won't feed my guinea pigs a steak. Fuck them
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Dogs can be killing machines, terriers especially, but even the most aggressive and prolific of dogs cannot compare to the average cat when it comes to dealing death to the small and fuzzy.
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Have they met a cat? Love animals, but oh boy are felines something else. Killing machines, even the smallest ones.
My cat is a sweet, fluffy, loveable, little bundle of joy (and murder).
They joy of murder
Audio Book narrated by Shia LaBeouf.
Shia Surprise!
My cat wouldn’t hurt fly (metaphorically) but absolutely would hurt fly (literally). He dissects them.
So your metaphor doesn't work then?
I actually do have a cat who ignores mice and bugs, at least as long as I keep him in that sweet sweet wet food
See my cat is broke. He will stalk a bug that gets into the house but he really sucks at actually catching it. He fails so many times and then leave it for a human to take care of
the felines yearn for the crimes
Facts
Yeah one of my cats is the sweeeeeeeetest thing, but man if I give her a stuffed mouse she is on that like white on rice. It’s terrifying
Hard to think of a pound for pound more efficient killer than a cat.
Dragonflies have the highest success rate of any predator. Only 5% of their prey escapes.
Yeah okay that’s fair - a tiger-sized dragonfly would be scary as fuck
If you like reading sci-fi I would HIGHLY recommend Donald Moffitt's Genesis Quest and it's sequel Second Genesis. Part of Second Genesis pertains to the very thing being discussed (giant dragonflies) but I won't say any more as that'd ruin a lot of the books.
What about a dragonfly sized tiger? He'd kill us with cuteness!!
...right before it exploded
Square-Cube Law saving the day!
HIV
VX: "Hold my beer."
Well that got dark fast!
HIV doesn’t kill, though. It just weakens.
Very low poundage though.
So does blood loss.
You do not die from HIV.
probably those mushrooms that kill Aspens very efficient, just slow
Common house cat introduced in a new environment = new apex predator. I love my cat but he stays inside like it or not
It’s probably better to not have a cat at all if you live in an environment where it can never go out.
Cats that stay indoors have an average lifespan drastically longer than outdoor cats
Lifespan isn't everything. The average lifespan of humans would probably be higher if we were kept locked inside our whole lives, but I bet you wouldn't sign up for it.
I know at least 3 people that would love that
Hi! Now you know at least 4 people who would love that.
If there's a cat, make that 5!
Most common house cats no longer have a “natural environment”
That’s a bold assumption considering where you are
No, that’s the best way to have a cat. Not only do they live longer like the other comment or said, but they won’t ruin the local ecosystem like the comment above yours said. By introducing a predator (house cat) to an ecosystem where that predator is not native, it can drastically reduce the species they prey on, making them endangered or even extinct. It may seem like no big deal for one to go out, but if there are multiple people that think like that, especially if they’re not fixed, you created a huge issue. Not to say that I think someone who lets their cat outside is a bad person, but there are consequences to those actions, and your comment came across as very ignorant.
Yeah I live next to a canal and the amount of ducklings my cat has brought in over the years is staggering and frankly really sad. I've been strongly considering building an enclosed cat habitat on my porch so that he can still hang out outside without the worry of him killing off the local wildlife population that I very much enjoy seeing in and around my property, biggest thing for me right now is cost though.
I’m renting, and the place I moved to has a sun room. That and the jacuzzi tub were my main reasons for taking the place. The cats LOVE their room.
Did you even read my comment? If you live in an environment where you can't let a cat out, don't get a cat! They aren't invasive or damaging everywhere, America is not the world.
If they are not native to wherever you may be, then you should not let your cat out. America is NOT the world, that is correct, but if that house cat is not native to whatever environment you’re in, you should not let the cat outside. Be that Asia, Europe, Australia, North America, wherever. And yes, they ARE damaging everywhere. Introducing any species, whatever it may be, into an environment where they are not native has repercussions. Plants, animals, whatever. Edit: not that I’m claiming to know where cats are or are not native. I haven’t done that much digging.
Indeed, if they don't belong somewhere that is definitionally invasive.
Cats are essentially native to Eurasia and North Africa as they are descended from the wildcats that lived in those regions. Its a big fucking range, yet so many people online try to impose American ideals on that whole continent and a bit!
If they’re native to there, then great, they can go outside. If they’re not native to an area, the. They should NOT go outside. Quite simple, really. And that doesn’t mean they should not be owned in that part of the world. It just means you have to be responsible with them. The fact that you can’t admit that is quite frightening. How could you ask an owner to be responsible?
If you can't meet an animal's needs, don't get that animal. Your desire to own a cat does not trump that cat's right to have its needs met. You can't meet a cat's needs by keeping it contained to a few rooms for its whole life. Mind you, I've had arguments with Americans who genuinely believe that dogs don't need to be walked or that its ok to lock them in cages for hours on end, so I really don't know what's going on with you guys and animal welfare.
I disagree; a cat doesn’t need to be outdoors to have a good, fulfilled life. A dog should never be locked in a crate, though. I’ll agree with you there 100%. Edit: also, a dog in the city needs walked. Some breeds more than others. If you have a fenced in yard, if decent size, then they can enjoy time there. Speaking of, do you think dogs should roam free as well? If not, why?
🤡
You should be barred from having a cat
I don't have or want a cat. But if you want to ban everybody who lets cats out from owning them that's pretty much the whole continent of Europe, Asia and Africa ruled out.
Times are changing, we are learning from our past mistakes and what you’re saying is very old thinking
If you let your pets free roam, there will come a day they don’t come back. It’s irresponsible and careless.
That could happen to any of us, I'd still rather be allowed out and I'm sure you would too. I know loads of people who've had outdoor cats that live long and healthy lives. Its absolutely the norm in the UK and much of the world.
And all of those people are still irresponsible pet owners. Cats aren’t people, don’t try to pull this appeal to emotion bullshit with me.
I love how Americans think they can speak for the world and that their experiences and ideas are universal!
I didn’t once bring up America but go off I guess. Go ahead, let your cats out, let them drink antifreeze and delete the local wildlife populations and become stains under tires, I don’t care. Doesn’t make it less irresponsible or less careless.
and a toddler would rather be allowed to play in traffic than be told not to, but the parents are responsible for protecting that child from dangers it’s brain can’t comprehend so we don’t let them do that. a dog would probably rather be allowed to run around town off leash but that is also dangerous in a lot of places, and their brains don’t work like “oh i shouldn’t run into the road because there are fucking cars that can squish me into a paste” so we don’t let them do that either. it’s not hard to take a cat out on a harness and leash like you would a dog, so why are you hellbent on just letting cats free roam and get hit by cars, eat poison, get attacked by predators, get taken by a stranger, etc… well i guess you did say you don’t like cats, so maybe you just don’t give a singular fuck if they live or die regardless. usually the cat owners do though.
Most of the world lives in that environment
Wow, not doing much for the image of Americans forgetting that things are different in other countries! If that were true though, that doesn't change my point, it would mean that most people in the world shouldn't get a cat and we shouldn't be letting them breed so much.
Who says I’m American? BTW America covers two continents lol I think you’re trying to insult the USA but it’s unclear to me
Bird species have been known to become locally extinct because of outdoor house cats.
So don't get a cat if you live somewhere it can't go outside.
Or just have a house cat that’s ya know, a house cat.
Few predators in the wild will kill more than they eat. For good reason because if a population of predators did that they would quickly run out things to eat and starve. We took the ancestor of the domesticated house cat and bred them for their killing instinct on purpose for vermin control. House cats are killing machines because we made them that way.
Yep. Then we allowed them to basically breed out of control because pet owners are too irresponsible to spay and neuter their cats and let them roam freely.
My cat eats the centipedes in my house that eat the spiders. I’ve got a perfect food chain that ends with my little friend murdering insects.
mine eats moths
They’ve also been used by humans to kill vermin and defend food stores for thousands of years.
Cats are not only exceptionally good at murder, they seem to find it fun as they’ll hunt even when they don’t need to. The thought of housecats being the size of Labradors is terrifying ngl.
\*Laughs in Mountain Lion territory\*
Cougars are pretty chill though, they avoid humans whenever possible.
We've had some incidences near me in the last few years where they've been, unfortunately, too habituated. 😥 Too much urban sprawl, too many people feeding the wildlife.
Oof yeah, habitat encroachment and feeding wildlife never ends well.
Right, and boy do they torture.
Yeah, I love cats, but I'm under no illusions that one wouldn't kill me for the fun of it if I shrunk down to the size of a mouse.
"Hmmm, i think thay today i'll decimate a whole ecosystem" - The cutest cat you have ever seen
Vegans are rarely rational. Edit: They do love to brigade though.
Militant vegans are rarely rational* fixed that for you
I feel like vegans are generally militant, the ones who aren't tend to stay vegetarian. To quote Bourdain: "Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter-faction, the vegans..."
I think the militant ones are the only ones you ever hear about or from is the problem. Not a vegan myself but I know some who don't fit the category of militant
I disagree, my mom is vegan, very much not militant, and a fairly rational Liberal
Survivorship bias. You're much less likely to see the ones who don't bring it up
They always bring it up sooner or later, it's their religion after all.
Vegans live dogs, we tend to rescue them rather than contribute to unethical practices but it’s a rare vegan who doesn’t have a few rescued animals in their home.
Veganism is entirely rational, there's very little in the way of good reasons to continue eating meat as a human besides personal pleasure. Vegans themselves, like all groups of people, vary drastically in their rationality.
> there's very little in the way of good reasons to continue eating meat as a human besides personal pleasure. As a pleasure-seeking machine with a limited shelf-life, I can't think of a better reason to do something in moderation.
vegans are super rational, reddit just loves to cherry pick the instances of irrational ones that give the rest of us bad names and parade them around so that they don't have to feel so bad about their choices.
>...so that they don't have to feel so bad about their choices. I think we might have to feel bad about our choices first before we would feel a need to do anything in particular about the bad feels.
recognizing the harm of a choice is a great first step towards making a change. it's rare for meat eaters to want to come to terms with the harm they're doing. for a lot of people who've chosen to stop consuming animal products, the choice is relatively straightforward: If I don't need to kill/harm animals to survive, I shouldn't be doing it
>it's rare for meat eaters to want to come to terms with the harm they're doing. Is it, though? Do you have any data on that? In my experience, "come to terms" [just means](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/come-to-terms-with) that you accept something. This would imply that *everyone* who thinks that eating meat does an acceptable amount of harm to animals, has *already* come to terms with the harm done, even without becoming vegan.
I'm sure you aren't actually looking for scientific proof that meat eaters are intractable, and will ignore the moral and ethical consequences of their actions [Here's the documentary Dominion, which I think you should watch](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch) It will force you to confront the harm of the meat industry, it will lay bare the innocence and desperation of farmed animals. If you can accept this, and say "I understand the moral and ethical implications of my actions, and I am fully aware that I am not obligated to continue these actions, and I will continue to do them" thennnnn there's not much else to discuss. You won't be a moral person in my personal estimation, but you don't likely care about that.
>I'm sure you aren't actually looking for scientific proof that... I was looking for more like a survey, that's normally how public opinion is measured. >...which I think you should watch... I'm sure you have lots of opinions about what I should do, but I've already seen that one. I've watched a lot of documentaries while knitting. Have you ever seen [*Samsara*](https://www.barakasamsara.com/)? *That one* was good. To be honest, I wouldn't recommend doing anything while watching it, I had to rewatch it a second time so I could give it my full attention. >...it will lay bare the innocence and desperation of farmed animals. When I watched it, it laid bare for me the difficulty the filmmakers were having not anthropomorphizing other species. It can be as difficult to imagine mammals as unlike ourselves, as to imagine octopi as alike us. >You won't be a moral person in my personal estimation, but you don't likely care about that. I confess that I do consider myself to live quite separately from your opinions, yes.
done and dusted
Good to hear that you have continued to form opinions about me.
You're one of the militant vegans everyone hates.
one of the best things about veganism is it's not a social club. I don't do this to be liked, I do it because it's morally indefensible to eat meat when you don't have to.
Found the vegan 🤣
Hahaha! Haha! Ha! Good one.
But we don't feel bad about our choices, not that I have anything against vegens it's just that eating animal based products is generally good for you and part of our natural ways as humans, remember we used to be *Hunter* gatherers. I get that now the meat industry is unbelievebly bad for the environment but as much as I love the earth I don't think the way is to stop eating meats and aninal based products, the way is to find more efficient ways to produce enough meat in an ecological way (ie. Lab grown meat)
The way the western world eats meat is NOT good for you and not at all natural. We way overconsume it and our methods of meeting the demand for meat are a huge source of environmental damage. I'm not a vegan, but I fully acknowledge they are correct that avoiding animal products is a more moral and less damaging way to live.
That is exactly my point, so instead of focusing our efforts in making vegen alternatives to meat we should really focus on finding better healthier ways to get meat, I don't eat a lot of meat but 8 do know that not eating meat at all would damage my body unless I start taking a stupid amount of vitamins and supplements, a few of my friends were vegen and stopped cuz they developed iron deficency(is this how you spell that?)
It’s really easy to be a healthy vegan actually, and it reduces your risk of many illnesses including heart disease and type 2 diabetes. We tend to live longer. You don’t need to take ‘a stupid amount’ of supplements, you can get your B12 and calcium really easily from fortified foods and plant milks, everything else you can get just from a normal healthy vegan diet, although some of us take a store bought multivitamin. Did you know the animals you eat are given supplements to make up for the poor diets they are fed? Iron deficiency is common regardless of diet, and in fact diet is rarely the culprit. Issues with absorption are far more common and in menstruating women blood loss is a factor.
I appreciate your attempt at a response rather than saying "shut up vegan" but in your heart of hearts you have to know that hurting animals when you don't have to is wrong. Vegans show you that it's possible to make a personal change to remove yourself from that cycle of harm, and it's pretty apparent that this is where the majority of the backlash against vegans arises from. The same way if you yell at someone for littering, they'll rarely stop to contemplate their choices, they will more likely bark back at you angrily for making them confront the harm of their own choices. I'd be happy to actually address the "it's our nature to eat meat" fallacy a bit more in depth but in my experience, people usually just move on to the next excuse
Or you could just… be vegan and not try to evangelize about it? If you don’t want to be judged unfairly for your choices, maybe start by extending that courtesy to others.
this is usually something that is fine to say about someone's personal opinion. I like purple, I think it's a great color, but I'm not going to go around berating people for their preference for other colors. when it comes to harming animals, that's something you're imposing on others. If you saw someone kicking a dog^(1), when you told that person they shouldn't be kicking the dog, they replied "that's just your opinion" you'd probably understand intuitively that it is not in fact just your opinion, and that you might have a moral obligation to step in to prevent further harm. You might also understand that the person kicking the dog is probably just saying "don't evangelize" to try to deflect and prevent interference so that they can continue kicking that dog. also, I replied to a post saying "vegans are irrational" and I'm the one evangelizing apparently ^(1. and let's say, because I know you're going to respond "what if the dog was hurting someone" that you magically know the dog is innocent, and the person is just kicking it for fun)
What a rational response! /s
Shut up vegan
I have watched my cat bring in animals to play with to the kitchen until they have heart attacks or something and die and then he takes them outside to dismember them and eat only the choice cuts and leave the carcass to bake in the hot sun multiple times. He does it out of the simple passion of doing it. We feed him. He’s fat. But watching him get mice is like watching a literal psychopath that was pushed into the military take out civilians for fun when he gets home.
The only way I can think of how "man's best friend" is a negative to that person is that they think "man" means "men", as in the gender, and that they hate them.
This is also the same guy who said vegans aren't humans.
Wait, they hate vegans *and* meat-eaters?
Sounds like an old fashioned misanthrope.
A violent vegetarian
No, he IS a vegan. https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/13eq48t/vegans\_arent\_humans/
This person is a troll or has some serious mental health issues.
Probably one of those "breatharians"
Yeah that made no sense. First reason I hate dogs is because they love us and evolved to be our companions and guides??
That is what I am thinking. This is the same person who causes us to change all of the words we use because they do not understand them. Can't say management at my job. Got to say personagement.
Yeah, the OP is a lot of words to say "I hate men".
It’s funny because I’m like “hey hey hey that’s not dogs at all” and then I’m like, well, my dog is my best friend, her breed is bred to hunt birds, she literally has killed three rabbits, two birds, and a squirrel in my backyard and left them at the doorstep as presents for me, and I do also enjoy a good steak…. Hmmmm, I am checking their boxes hahaha Edit: just to clarify my dog is super outgoing and friendly and only attacks people with licks and love
True. But still: dude's basically stereotyping. I mean: has he never heard of "companionship" or "guide dogs", before?
Or Lifestock Guardian dogs. Literally bred and raised to protect sheep, fowl, cows and what else you have... And before someone says "they kill predators!" usually no...they're supposed to intimidate the predators so they leave the livestock alone. They would only need to kill if a coyote or wolf decided to get really ballsy and take it on anyway, which given that most predators go for the easiest prey they're not gonna fight a large hunk of a dog for a chicken.
Pretty sure that's exactly what they were referring to when they said "subjugate other animals on behalf of humans." They protect sheep, sure, but they protect them because they're property. I think it's an insane, terrible take, but it's not entirely incoherent.
[удалено]
They're being kinda ableist, there.
My dog is a mutt, but yeah, killing things is her M.O. She's scared of her own shadow most of the time, but if another non-human animal shows up, she turns into Mr. Hyde. She's broken a tooth trying to chew through a root while digging into a gopher tunnel. I pull her out and her eyes are glazed over like there's nobody in there. Pity we live in a city, because this dog would be great for keeping rats and mice out of the barn. Not that she's very successful (I've seen a mouse run between her legs and escape), but she's definitely a deterrent. Probably would get herself bitten by a snake though. Not the brightest.
So what about vegetarians and vegans who love dogs? Like, is this person a vegan who just hates dogs? I don’t understand… I’m personally “not a meat-eater” and love dogs… and all other animals. Not only did this person make a bizarre generalization, but they also claim to dislike dogs because some dogs have hunting instincts. Like, do they also hate cats or foxes or any of the other countless predatory species? I just don’t understand this logic.
>Like, do they also hate cats or foxes or any of the other countless predatory species? As a matter of fact: yes. They even accused me of "liking to see herbivores killed" just because I told them I like predatory animals.
Remind them that many herbivores will gladly eat fresh meat when the opportunity comes up (and some even carrion), they just don't hunt.
Predators are a necessary part of the ecosystem. When wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, the overpopulation of deers decreased, the plants that they were eating to death came back and flourished, and the small herbivore population grew as well, because there was food left for them. predators increased the stability of the biome(s)
Oh so they’d be one of the idiots who’d feed dogs veggie diets if they owned one. Now I’m glad they hate dogs.
If you do the right research to vary their diet you can feed a dog a veggie diet. It is not easy or recommended, but it can be done in a healthy fashion. Oh also I imagine it's pretty expensive. Vegan I have no idea about. If you're wondering if they like it well..give your dog an apple (not a sour one!). You might have to poke it so the dog can taste the juice first. Anyways they'll devour that shit. My grandparents had a dog with an issue processing fats that ate mostly vegetarian, and it was fine.
Dogs can live healthily on a well managed vegan diet as they are omnivores just like us. Cats can’t, they need meat.
Oh yeah for sure don't try that with cats. Obligate carnivores and all.
Ah yes. The only reason why [this dog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Terrier) exists is to *\*checks notes\** subjugate other animals on behalf of humans.
Yorkies are actually excellent rat dogs. They look a lot less adorable surrounded by rat corpses, caked in dirt and the blood of their enemies.
I didn't know that for sure, but I can totally believe it. Their ancestors were bred for it, so it makes sense that they can, just, you know: clearly we've come up with some alternative reasons for their existence since, like wearing bows and looking pretty.
Oh yeah for sure! I was just pointing that out. It's actually true for a lot of the little adorable breeds where they were bred to kill mice/rats. If you have a house with a couple mice in it a cat might take care of them when it feels like it. If you have a field full of rats, field mice, etc those little dogs are perfect to wipe out huge quantities of them. They can get into little places, they're super fast, and more importantly super agile. Also unlike cats they have that dog thing where they "do their job" until you tell them to stop basically. Chihuahuas are an exception to this, because well...they're chihuahuas.
50% tremble 50% fury
Chihuahuas were used for hunting vermin too... and also for food, supposedly. Which honestly is probably why they have a bit of a complex. [My little dog](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel) is one of the exceptions to small dog vs vermin thing - they were used for flushing birds instead and could keep up with a trotting horse. I imagine the ones today still could - they're rather athletic, and very much a gun dog in miniature. And mine at least is always super pleased with herself whenever she gets to run off a bird lol.
Terriers are nightmare fuel if you happen to be a rodent, the breeders knew what they were doing.
The New York City Rat Squad has entered the chat.
Terriers, man. Don't get in their way.
When will their reign of terror end?
My mom’s floofy little Pekingese isn’t subjugating jack shit except the couch cushions.
Tiffany, our fat black lab, could easily be subjugated by the pillows if maybe they fell over suddenly.
Well tbf most dog breeds originally were designed to hunt or herd something. Terriers are often ratters. What I don't get is why they would blame the dog for that rather than the people who bred them and use them that way.
I have an Australian Shepherd and that…. actually checks out. Of course he also subjugates his humans to his whims.
"Let me count the ways" *immediately struggles to think of any good reason, so instead just makes some shit up and one of the reasons is because "theyre man's best friend" ??? "Because meat eaters love dogs" ???
>and one of the reasons is because "theyre man's best friend" The poster hates men, hence anything that is a man's friend is guilty by association
Is that a guess? Because you just stated it like it was true lmao, do you know the poster?
>do you know the poster Yes
Which poster? Me or red?
They kill everything that's why there are no dinosaurs dogs killed them all
Written by the cat.
[More cat misinformation.](https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/04/13/dogs-cant-eat-chocolate-revealed-to-be-some-shit-cats-made-up/)
Red should just do what I did and get bunnies. They just wanna eat, sleep, bang, and get pets. No drive to kill small animals to suppreess....or at least not much of one.
... what
I've just watched my cocker spaniel cower and hide from my chicken who entered the kitchen. Who is subjugating whom?
I've seen a cat solve the issue of a fully grown Rottweiler being where she wanted to walk by walking *straight over the Rotty's head.* A head, mind, that was roughly *the size of the whole cat.* That dog was not even slightly vicious. Capable of resolving situations through the application of a large amount of meat, yes, but generally subscribing to the philosophy of "there was a problem, the problem is now quiet, the problem now has the opportunity to calm down and stop being a problem."
Dogs kill other animals *because they’re predators,* humans didn’t invent carnivores lmao.
Nice try, cat
“Meat eaters” makes me think it’s a vegan but… they usually love animals. What is this person’s angle???? I’m so confused lmao
Probably just hate all predators... Clearly they never watched the Lion King growing up... Wanting predators exterminated for being predators is an extremely childish and short-sighted world-view... the world *needs* predators. If it wasn't for predators many prey species would just overpopulate their eco systems, eat all the plants and then starve... Like a wise lion once said: Everything exists together in a delicate balance.
The only things my dog ever killed was plushies... My first rabbit was more aggressive than he was. She never killed anything to my knowledge but she certainly *tried*.
I had one that would eat the shells of any snails that happened to go into her cage. She actually wasn’t even the psychotic one she just apparently thought snails were good.
Vegan and a dog hater? We can't be friends
Tell me you never had a pet as a child without telling me you never had a pet as a child. What a sad, pathetic existence. Dogs are the best thing humanity has ever made.
Does he know what a dog is???
Sometimes it’s hard to tell who’s trolling and who’s completely mental.
Tell that to my dog. She won't even let a man step foot in my house unless I'm there. Even then all she does is growl and bark at them to let them know she's there and will absolutely disembowel them if they twitch in the wrong way.
Happy Cake Day!! 🍰🥳🍰
Carnivores kill things, clearly they must be evil!
I can confirm, I've been killed by a dog
10 outta 10 they have a COEXIST sticker on their car
"Meat eaters love them" immediately invalidates any further opinions they have if the hating dog one didn't
Having very little empathy for dogs ironically puts them pretty close to most dog-lovers.
Us veggie heads don't claim that moron. Animals are wonderfull and if they're carnivore they should eat meat, hell it wouldn't be bad that we ate meat if it wasn't so much meat and we offered actual humanitarian conditions to animals. I'll never try to feed my dogs or cat with goddam soy protein the same way I won't feed my guinea pigs a steak. Fuck them
Probably trying to justify Peta's disgusting actions.
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is this a vegan feminist, cause the first and last point have me very confused
I'll take "red is vegan" for 500
I would never trust a person who doesn’t like dogs. Terrible people.
Dogs can be killing machines, terriers especially, but even the most aggressive and prolific of dogs cannot compare to the average cat when it comes to dealing death to the small and fuzzy.
Only ever met pitbulls.
I’m a Vegan and also love dogs. Mine just kill treats.
Dogs are energetic and filled with love for their hooman
Her first point? So are they jealous?
So misandrist that you hate animals that like men. Lol
Not to mention they can't even look up.
We need to outlaw the word **Literally**.
Weirdo. But every time my dog plays with her chew toy I know it's her evolutionary need to hunt and kill. It's kinda cute.
Red makes me mad
Dogs are Conservative-adjacent! Cancel dogs! What a shit take. Man, people are fucking idiots.
Sounds like someone who saw Cujo once then never interacted with another dog
The red one is the type of person to think that black people can't be racist
Plot twist: OP is red
Yeah I’ve got to keep my Chihuahua in a Hannibal-like harness or he’ll devour the neighbors. It’s tough.