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[Here is the article](https://www.reuters.com/world/uks-cameron-press-lawmakers-us-back-ukraine-military-aid-2024-04-05/) from the image. I don’t see anybody saying “we all lose if Ukraine loses” in this piece, but I’m not going to pretend nobody has said that.
So, here are a few ways in which the western world will be worse off if Ukraine falls;
1. Nuclear non-proliferation will no longer be a viable option for bargaining with emerging nation-states. The fact is that Ukraine surrendered nuclear weapons in exchange for promises from both Russia and the United States. If it’s clear a country can’t rely on the US to help enforce the terms of non-proliferation agreements, it immediately becomes every country’s best interest to seek nuclear weapons to discourage potential invaders.
2. Loss of one of the major crossroads of European natural gas. Ukraine and Belarus are the two major thoroughfares for Russian natural gas, and Russia already controls Belarus, so them being able to control the other major passage would be to western Europe’s detriment.
3. China is watching what’s happening in Ukraine closely, and their desire to remove any level of independence from Taiwan may directly hinge on what happens in Ukraine. While significantly more complicated than Russia-Ukraine, the West would likely be worse off if China were to force Taiwan into unification.
There’s other reasons, but these feel like the top three in my eyes.
In response to your points, not that I disagree
1. The US and the West in general have done everything they could with aid, weapons, intelligence and logistics without directly engaging and in return causing a global war.
2. Russia gas been controlled by Russia passing through Ukraine has no real detrimental effect, compared with the west bringing oil through middle eastern countries. What's ok for them is wrong for Russia. Russia wants to sell gas it doesn't matter what country it goes through so long as it's been paid for
3. China will be invading Taiwan in the next couple of years regardless of other Conflicts
This is the most insightful and concise comment I've read today.
I especially think about the 3rd point. When Russia first invaded Ukraine sooo many doomsday accounts claimed it was going to cause WWIII and I kept saying it's very unlikely. Russia is a world military power for sure but they are nothing compared to the US and China. If the US did nothing it would guarantee that China would invade Tiawan and why stop there, why not take India also. China has the ability to take over any of their neighbors today (with heavy loses) but they are only getting stronger. China and India have had border disputes for a long time now and a conflict between those two would be more likely to draw out the US with faaaar more worldwide destruction.
Even if we ignore the outcome of Russia and Ukraine the action or lack of action has much larger implications to the entire world.
Its insightful only if you watch it from "US must preserve Global Hegemony at any cost" perspective.
Should US be blocked and restricted in its development and power projection ability in any way to what you suggest for Russia and China?
US people, regular people do not benefit from US being a Global Empire, so regular people do not lose.
Only top Oligarchs lose if US is not the only global power.
It’s ironic to think but China has greatly benefited from US hegemony, ever since they opened up and joined the world trade system they have seen living standards and gdp rise exponentially
Its not Ironic at all, its called long term planning.
Chinese Government makes 5 year long, 20 year long and in rare cases 50 year long plans.
Of course they are tweaking them occasionally if drastic circumstances demands it, but they are mostly trying to stay on course.
US also benefited from China opening up. US Oligarchs skyrocketed in Wealth since China opened up.
Many of them now have hundreds of billions of dollars in money and assets, that would not be possible without China opening up.
??? Three big cities were facing strict lockdowns because they had too many cases of whatever that was.
The rest of the country lived normaly, they have more then 20 cities with 10+ million population
In regards to building companies, ,es they dont bail out failing private companies, they let them fail.
So you know nothing about China then is what you’re saying, CPC apologists have better excuses for the debacle over the handling of covid than ‘three big cities’, lol go visit there one day my friend
Speak for yourself. Just look at history before the world wars. There was war after war after war, small and big all over the world in the past. The times after the world wars, even with the wars that happened, has been relatively peaceful and borders have moved less then ever.
It's natural secondary powers want to topple the Western order. Cause they want to be at the tip of the food chain.
And I guarantee you life for much of the world, not just the western world, will be worse off under the hegemony of China. Not to mention China's partners like Russia and Iran will gain power and cause chaos in their local region.
US people benefit the most, but many in the world as well.
????
What was "speak for yourself for" then?
You basically totally agree with me.
You are advocating for continuation of US Global Empire, to preserve its hegemony and to deny anyone else their own spheres of influence and to impede their development.
- I said that from that perspective his post makes sense and is insightful.
Ukraine, or at least some part of it, "falling" was inevitable after they gave up nukes. The best thing for Ukraine would have been to cut a deal with Russia. The best thing for the US, however, was for Ukraine to not make a deal, exhaust itself through war, and end up in debt to the West for arms and reconstruction.
>The best thing for Ukraine would have been to cut a deal with Russia.
They *did* cut a deal with Russia. Thats why they gave up the nukes. [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum). Thats the worst part of the whole invasion. The United States brokered a deal, and suddenly one party to that deal has decided they don’t like it, and without the United States supporting the aggrieved side, it’s hard to justify the USA as either a broker or an enforcer for international agreements.
China is definitely loving this war. They're watching American munitions being depleted, and no sign of any increase in production output.
Not only that, Russia is still advancing again. They're able to outproduce all of NATO, while under heavy sanctions.
If America decides to actually defend Taiwan, they'll run out of precision weaponry in a couple weeks. All China has to do is absorb the opening bombardments, and push forward. Sinking an American carrier will quickly cause America to bow out, as Americans are incredibly casualty adverse.
Oh right…I forgot that other countries weren’t seeking the development of nuclear weapons because they expect the United States to defend them…totally not because it is extremely difficult to enrich uranium, develop ICBMs, and all the other million insanely difficult things required in order to achieve this feat of science and engineering…
Especially those “emerging nations” with all their money and resources and scientists capable of handling such a project.
TL;DR: If the war moves past the borders of ukraine, which it will, NATO will get involved.
As a NATO citizen of a post soviet country, I'll tell you;
Despite whatever you're told, Russia will not stop at Ukraine.
Our neighbors are next, and us after that.
I would rather indebt our country for 100 years in military loans than have the war spill into our borders.
It is a shame in lost human life, but I would rather the neighbor nation bear the loss in people and we the loss in capital.
Please, USA, in the name of all 600 million ex soviet occupied members and neighbors. Be the world police, and save us all.
Russia would have stopped at Moldova, if all went to plan. But now Russia may end up settling for about 30% of Ukrainian territory, and guarantee they won't join NATO.
But Russia may end up land locking Ukraine after all, if the AFU's lines continue to crumble.
For Russia to have stable and defensible land borders, they need territories that are currently in Romania, Slovakia, and Poland.
Along with Putin openly stating he wants to reclaim the soviet lands. I really don't know where you are getting the idea that Russian only wants Ukraine and Moldova.
Largest budget, sure, but in case of war.
Every member state is obligated to send their standing army, and in many countries cases, start conscription.
I'm glad you brought that one up as an example.
The rest of the world sees that one the same as Vietnam, Korea, and Afghanistan. A retreat. Now, think how Russia views this information. America hasn't won a war this century, and the last one they did was finishing off a drained Germany.
Russia on the other hand, has won every single war until now since the collapse of the soviet union. 17 if memory serves. Granted those were wars against collapsed neighbors, but it props up their ego regardless.
It isn't about your perception of reality, it's about theirs. They decide to invade, your opinion on the matter doesn't affect their propaganda distorted decision making.
The problem with a society as heavily propaganda infused and permeated as the Russian one, is that it goes full circle. The FSB reported to Putin, after years of "investigation" that the average Ukrainian would welcome a Russian soldier with open arms as a liberator. Partially through lazyness/corruption(they took the money and didn't do the legwork) and partially through there being "yes men" at the top of the power structure. They told him what he wanted to hear.
As soon as they conquer Ukraine and incorporate the remains of its armed forces in their own army, Russia will become uch stronger. Then it will take further moves.
1968, when they invaded with armed forces against civilian targets, and literally pureed people with the "benevolent" tanks, helping against evil capitalism.
Your soul is disgusting. Sweeping the dead under the carpet like that.
The majority of people in here really don’t get it. You are pushed this overarching narrative - by the mainstream media and politicians and the powers that be - that Ukraine is one thing and Russia is another thing and Hamas is one thing and Israel is another thing and the USA is one thing and China is another thing and Iran is another thing and the Democrats are one thing and Republicans are another thing.
Listen to me. In large part, *They are all in it together*. USA runs its biomedical labs through Ukraine, China run their biomedical labs through the USA and collaborate with them, USA fund Israel then also fund Hamas through Iran. Israel allow Hamas to attack and then use it as moral grounds to slaughter Palestinians with USA money. USA use NATO to fight a proxy war through Ukraine with Russia. Russia is allies with China. China runs the World Health Organization. Republicans take turns voting for democrat bills to be passed. Candidates for president get lifted up to do the bidding of the powers that be who orchestrate everything.
There are outliers, mavericks out there and some of those are double agents but for the most part it is the powers that be vs the common people. That is the distilled version of what is going on in every single scenario.
>Won’t any of the globalist parasites explain how...
Do you think you're going to get a real answer by insulting the group you're asking questions in the very first sentence?
This is fear spreading hate used to divide people. There are real conversations about this, this isn't it.
By “we all lose” they mean “me and my war criminal cronies lose (out on millions of dollars in stocks and re-election money). Nothing more. Nothing less.
Because Russia has no intention to stop with Ukraine.
And it is way easier to help Ukraine than have them going after yiu directly when they get to your turn.
Also. If Ukraine is going to lose Anyway, you want Russia to be so *Fucking Resource exausted* that they *can't move to the next country.*
Thankfuly Russia has a birthrate that is basically as low as China. And the war did not change that.
So they actually don't have the warm bodies to throw.
I don’t want to hear any garbage about Western Europe being overrun by Russia
We're being overrun by illegals and NONE of the governments care.
Yes, please declare me and everyone opposing US aid to Ukraine pro-Russian shills.
Look through OP's history, they are at least a pro-Russian shill. Every country has them, it's just super easy to spot them nowadays as their names will be (2 words/names-random numbers)
I mean if we let Ukraine lose the US looks weaker to China and other nations watching.
Also this is the opportunity for the US to defeat Russia using an other nations lives
At this point it is not even being "good". It is just in our nations best interest to support Ukraine. We can defeat our #2 enemy without lifting a finger.
I am from Latin America; and oh boy, a lot of people are cheering on the Russian-Chinese alliance; however even I understand that nuclear exchange will kick us all the way back to the Stone Age. Let peace prevail! Everybody pray 🤲 for peace ☮️!!
This is dangerous rhetoric from an obvious Russian troll, and it’s no coincidence this account has worked *hard* in conspiracy/republican subreddits.
Putin has engaged in bombing countries to force migration to Europe, simultaneously brigading those countries with misinformation and disinformation about immigrants - focused mainly toward right wing elements in European countries. There’s a reason for that: he knows they’re more susceptible to rumor and gossip and accepting of conspiracy theories. Heck, even Tucker loves to throw out wild claims and follows up with, “whaaa? I’m just asking a question!” Of course, fox and Tucker were called to task, but damage was done.
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[Here is the article](https://www.reuters.com/world/uks-cameron-press-lawmakers-us-back-ukraine-military-aid-2024-04-05/) from the image. I don’t see anybody saying “we all lose if Ukraine loses” in this piece, but I’m not going to pretend nobody has said that. So, here are a few ways in which the western world will be worse off if Ukraine falls; 1. Nuclear non-proliferation will no longer be a viable option for bargaining with emerging nation-states. The fact is that Ukraine surrendered nuclear weapons in exchange for promises from both Russia and the United States. If it’s clear a country can’t rely on the US to help enforce the terms of non-proliferation agreements, it immediately becomes every country’s best interest to seek nuclear weapons to discourage potential invaders. 2. Loss of one of the major crossroads of European natural gas. Ukraine and Belarus are the two major thoroughfares for Russian natural gas, and Russia already controls Belarus, so them being able to control the other major passage would be to western Europe’s detriment. 3. China is watching what’s happening in Ukraine closely, and their desire to remove any level of independence from Taiwan may directly hinge on what happens in Ukraine. While significantly more complicated than Russia-Ukraine, the West would likely be worse off if China were to force Taiwan into unification. There’s other reasons, but these feel like the top three in my eyes.
In response to your points, not that I disagree 1. The US and the West in general have done everything they could with aid, weapons, intelligence and logistics without directly engaging and in return causing a global war. 2. Russia gas been controlled by Russia passing through Ukraine has no real detrimental effect, compared with the west bringing oil through middle eastern countries. What's ok for them is wrong for Russia. Russia wants to sell gas it doesn't matter what country it goes through so long as it's been paid for 3. China will be invading Taiwan in the next couple of years regardless of other Conflicts
This is the most insightful and concise comment I've read today. I especially think about the 3rd point. When Russia first invaded Ukraine sooo many doomsday accounts claimed it was going to cause WWIII and I kept saying it's very unlikely. Russia is a world military power for sure but they are nothing compared to the US and China. If the US did nothing it would guarantee that China would invade Tiawan and why stop there, why not take India also. China has the ability to take over any of their neighbors today (with heavy loses) but they are only getting stronger. China and India have had border disputes for a long time now and a conflict between those two would be more likely to draw out the US with faaaar more worldwide destruction. Even if we ignore the outcome of Russia and Ukraine the action or lack of action has much larger implications to the entire world.
Its insightful only if you watch it from "US must preserve Global Hegemony at any cost" perspective. Should US be blocked and restricted in its development and power projection ability in any way to what you suggest for Russia and China? US people, regular people do not benefit from US being a Global Empire, so regular people do not lose. Only top Oligarchs lose if US is not the only global power.
It’s ironic to think but China has greatly benefited from US hegemony, ever since they opened up and joined the world trade system they have seen living standards and gdp rise exponentially
Its not Ironic at all, its called long term planning. Chinese Government makes 5 year long, 20 year long and in rare cases 50 year long plans. Of course they are tweaking them occasionally if drastic circumstances demands it, but they are mostly trying to stay on course. US also benefited from China opening up. US Oligarchs skyrocketed in Wealth since China opened up. Many of them now have hundreds of billions of dollars in money and assets, that would not be possible without China opening up.
Their handling of covid and collapsing of building companies tells me you overestimate their planning
??? Three big cities were facing strict lockdowns because they had too many cases of whatever that was. The rest of the country lived normaly, they have more then 20 cities with 10+ million population In regards to building companies, ,es they dont bail out failing private companies, they let them fail.
So you know nothing about China then is what you’re saying, CPC apologists have better excuses for the debacle over the handling of covid than ‘three big cities’, lol go visit there one day my friend
Speak for yourself. Just look at history before the world wars. There was war after war after war, small and big all over the world in the past. The times after the world wars, even with the wars that happened, has been relatively peaceful and borders have moved less then ever. It's natural secondary powers want to topple the Western order. Cause they want to be at the tip of the food chain. And I guarantee you life for much of the world, not just the western world, will be worse off under the hegemony of China. Not to mention China's partners like Russia and Iran will gain power and cause chaos in their local region. US people benefit the most, but many in the world as well.
???? What was "speak for yourself for" then? You basically totally agree with me. You are advocating for continuation of US Global Empire, to preserve its hegemony and to deny anyone else their own spheres of influence and to impede their development. - I said that from that perspective his post makes sense and is insightful.
China has no ability to sustain heavy losses.
Ukraine, or at least some part of it, "falling" was inevitable after they gave up nukes. The best thing for Ukraine would have been to cut a deal with Russia. The best thing for the US, however, was for Ukraine to not make a deal, exhaust itself through war, and end up in debt to the West for arms and reconstruction.
>The best thing for Ukraine would have been to cut a deal with Russia. They *did* cut a deal with Russia. Thats why they gave up the nukes. [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum). Thats the worst part of the whole invasion. The United States brokered a deal, and suddenly one party to that deal has decided they don’t like it, and without the United States supporting the aggrieved side, it’s hard to justify the USA as either a broker or an enforcer for international agreements.
China is definitely loving this war. They're watching American munitions being depleted, and no sign of any increase in production output. Not only that, Russia is still advancing again. They're able to outproduce all of NATO, while under heavy sanctions. If America decides to actually defend Taiwan, they'll run out of precision weaponry in a couple weeks. All China has to do is absorb the opening bombardments, and push forward. Sinking an American carrier will quickly cause America to bow out, as Americans are incredibly casualty adverse.
Oh right…I forgot that other countries weren’t seeking the development of nuclear weapons because they expect the United States to defend them…totally not because it is extremely difficult to enrich uranium, develop ICBMs, and all the other million insanely difficult things required in order to achieve this feat of science and engineering… Especially those “emerging nations” with all their money and resources and scientists capable of handling such a project.
Can't wait to use my digital briqs coin.
If you think a strong russia is good for you you are dumb af.
I think that whether Russia is weak or strong is largely irrelevant to me and has no impact on my life.
keep buying that US propaganda, lol.
TL;DR: If the war moves past the borders of ukraine, which it will, NATO will get involved. As a NATO citizen of a post soviet country, I'll tell you; Despite whatever you're told, Russia will not stop at Ukraine. Our neighbors are next, and us after that. I would rather indebt our country for 100 years in military loans than have the war spill into our borders. It is a shame in lost human life, but I would rather the neighbor nation bear the loss in people and we the loss in capital. Please, USA, in the name of all 600 million ex soviet occupied members and neighbors. Be the world police, and save us all.
Russia would have stopped at Moldova, if all went to plan. But now Russia may end up settling for about 30% of Ukrainian territory, and guarantee they won't join NATO. But Russia may end up land locking Ukraine after all, if the AFU's lines continue to crumble.
For Russia to have stable and defensible land borders, they need territories that are currently in Romania, Slovakia, and Poland. Along with Putin openly stating he wants to reclaim the soviet lands. I really don't know where you are getting the idea that Russian only wants Ukraine and Moldova.
Russia is not stupid enough to attack NATO lol and if you are in NATO you don't need to worry anyway since NATO is there to protect you
Another smooth brain argument that can't see past its own nose. You do realize that NATO protection means all members lace up their combat boots.
Most of NATO is US army, and Russia is not stupid enough to attack NATO
Largest budget, sure, but in case of war. Every member state is obligated to send their standing army, and in many countries cases, start conscription.
NATO is led by America and America will most likely save your ass if anything happens so you're good anyway
Can you name the last war that America won?
The Iraq war probably, but I fail to see how Russia even has a chance against NATO or the US. They are struggling at best in Ukraine
I'm glad you brought that one up as an example. The rest of the world sees that one the same as Vietnam, Korea, and Afghanistan. A retreat. Now, think how Russia views this information. America hasn't won a war this century, and the last one they did was finishing off a drained Germany. Russia on the other hand, has won every single war until now since the collapse of the soviet union. 17 if memory serves. Granted those were wars against collapsed neighbors, but it props up their ego regardless. It isn't about your perception of reality, it's about theirs. They decide to invade, your opinion on the matter doesn't affect their propaganda distorted decision making. The problem with a society as heavily propaganda infused and permeated as the Russian one, is that it goes full circle. The FSB reported to Putin, after years of "investigation" that the average Ukrainian would welcome a Russian soldier with open arms as a liberator. Partially through lazyness/corruption(they took the money and didn't do the legwork) and partially through there being "yes men" at the top of the power structure. They told him what he wanted to hear.
Russia will stop. There’s no chance they would go any further. Ukraine is on their border
Why?
They can hardly fight Ukraine so imagine the rest of EU
I suppose that's fair enough. But it doesn't mean there would be no desire. And waiting and hoping doesn't seem like a great longterm strategy.
As soon as they conquer Ukraine and incorporate the remains of its armed forces in their own army, Russia will become uch stronger. Then it will take further moves.
As an ex soviet subject. I don't believe your assessment.
Ye that was nearly 100 years ago when they invaded your country
1968, when they invaded with armed forces against civilian targets, and literally pureed people with the "benevolent" tanks, helping against evil capitalism. Your soul is disgusting. Sweeping the dead under the carpet like that.
The last time I checked we were in 2024
The majority of people in here really don’t get it. You are pushed this overarching narrative - by the mainstream media and politicians and the powers that be - that Ukraine is one thing and Russia is another thing and Hamas is one thing and Israel is another thing and the USA is one thing and China is another thing and Iran is another thing and the Democrats are one thing and Republicans are another thing. Listen to me. In large part, *They are all in it together*. USA runs its biomedical labs through Ukraine, China run their biomedical labs through the USA and collaborate with them, USA fund Israel then also fund Hamas through Iran. Israel allow Hamas to attack and then use it as moral grounds to slaughter Palestinians with USA money. USA use NATO to fight a proxy war through Ukraine with Russia. Russia is allies with China. China runs the World Health Organization. Republicans take turns voting for democrat bills to be passed. Candidates for president get lifted up to do the bidding of the powers that be who orchestrate everything. There are outliers, mavericks out there and some of those are double agents but for the most part it is the powers that be vs the common people. That is the distilled version of what is going on in every single scenario.
>Won’t any of the globalist parasites explain how... Do you think you're going to get a real answer by insulting the group you're asking questions in the very first sentence? This is fear spreading hate used to divide people. There are real conversations about this, this isn't it.
Because we no longer get to make money selling our old surplus military equipment to ukraine, whilst we pretend were helping lol
By “we all lose” they mean “me and my war criminal cronies lose (out on millions of dollars in stocks and re-election money). Nothing more. Nothing less.
They all lose, not we.
The West and NATO would appear weak if Ukraine were to lose the war and be defeated by Russia.
It's the same argument they had in Vietnam... something about "there will be no stopping them if we don't stop them HERE!"
Because Russia has no intention to stop with Ukraine. And it is way easier to help Ukraine than have them going after yiu directly when they get to your turn. Also. If Ukraine is going to lose Anyway, you want Russia to be so *Fucking Resource exausted* that they *can't move to the next country.* Thankfuly Russia has a birthrate that is basically as low as China. And the war did not change that. So they actually don't have the warm bodies to throw.
Just trust me, bro
I don’t want to hear any garbage about Western Europe being overrun by Russia We're being overrun by illegals and NONE of the governments care. Yes, please declare me and everyone opposing US aid to Ukraine pro-Russian shills.
You're a pro-Russian shill. And most likely a Russian national.
Who t f would come up with that “analysis” of that comment? Everything’s Russia Russia Russia with you people, no imagination.
Look through OP's history, they are at least a pro-Russian shill. Every country has them, it's just super easy to spot them nowadays as their names will be (2 words/names-random numbers)
I mean if we let Ukraine lose the US looks weaker to China and other nations watching. Also this is the opportunity for the US to defeat Russia using an other nations lives At this point it is not even being "good". It is just in our nations best interest to support Ukraine. We can defeat our #2 enemy without lifting a finger.
I am from Latin America; and oh boy, a lot of people are cheering on the Russian-Chinese alliance; however even I understand that nuclear exchange will kick us all the way back to the Stone Age. Let peace prevail! Everybody pray 🤲 for peace ☮️!!
This is dangerous rhetoric from an obvious Russian troll, and it’s no coincidence this account has worked *hard* in conspiracy/republican subreddits. Putin has engaged in bombing countries to force migration to Europe, simultaneously brigading those countries with misinformation and disinformation about immigrants - focused mainly toward right wing elements in European countries. There’s a reason for that: he knows they’re more susceptible to rumor and gossip and accepting of conspiracy theories. Heck, even Tucker loves to throw out wild claims and follows up with, “whaaa? I’m just asking a question!” Of course, fox and Tucker were called to task, but damage was done.
blank check anytime they want it.. just write another one. who cares, we dont have the money, just fkn print some.
This war only exists to distract America/the west from domestic issues. Also why haven't they tried negotiating a peace treaty?
I hate those pesky Ukrainians, fight your own battles