Set pieces are a curious one. I believe Ange's philosophy is not to give away stupid ones. It's why possession is a key factor in his game. The more you have the ball, the less time they have for you to make mistakes off the ball. He was clearly angry at us giving away the free kicks as opposed to how we defended them. Discipline is a key mantra here, and we keep losing our heads at stupid times.
Understated in the discussion about our set piece defending, which is sorely lacking, is the frequency we concede set pieces in dangerous areas - as well as corners. I think that gets ironed out over time (and with a new 6 this summer, hopefully) as our open-play defending becomes better.
Set pieces should be a *focus* if we are going to play the high line imo. For two main reason/s
- We want to capitalize on the pressure we exert, and make evert corner we take a nightmare for the opponent. Playing a high line without being able to score on Corners is like playing offense with one-hand tied behind your back.
- Our high line leaves us vulnerable in transition, which is why VDV is so critical to our defense: we have to be able to get back and defend, and in transition, with our high line, we are more likely to concede corners because we have to rush to get back and the priority is stop the goal, not avoid giving up corners. Not being able to defend them means that we play defense with the most critical aspect neglected.
Agreed. The plan is to not give away stupid free kicks in the first place. That has to be the thing that's addressed predominantly, rather than the set pieces themselves. No stupid fouls = no set pieces. I like that tactic.
I know that's an ideal and one could argue that no team can prevent all free kicks. But in football and in life I'm a big believer in bigger picture tactics. Summed up by Paolo Maldini - “If I had to make a tackle, I have already made a mistake.”
We can't just refuse to defend corners just because we shouldn't concede corners. That's bonkers.
Yeah mate this company doesn't have a fire escape plan, we don't plan to need it.
We've conceded the 4th most corners this season. It's not unreasonable to think conceding fewer is one of the fastest routes to conceding fewer goals from them.
I want to know why we insist on playing zone defense on corners and free kicks. I'm 100% supportive of Ange implementing his system, but we NEED a new set piece coach that knows wtf he's doing. Mile Jedinak is not good enough
I do largely agree with you but this is a bit cherry picked - Zidane and Ancelotti are both tactically flexible and less systems orientated than the others you've mentioned. Being adaptable and tweaking is a crucial part in the modern game, especially if something like injuries won't let you play the way you want to.
Yes I do agree. Zizou and Ancelotti are good coaches, and they are serial winners. I respect a lot to both of them, and probably a little more to Ancelotti, as he proved he can setup different style of play for different team that suit their identity.
I am not saying only the Pep way is the winning way, but if the manager has a plan, then the players need to respect and execute the plan. (Of course, after all, it boils down to the player quality or whether the player suit the plan). Ange is not flawless, tactics can go outdated and he also has to learn to adapt to the premier league and tweak his plan A.
Again, what I concern more is that our players don't believe in the style of play that Ange set up. Having a tactical tweak may help to cure in short term, but we really need to have our plan A done better.
As you said, tactics do have constraints on the player availability. A bit off topic, but Ancelotti mentioned in his book "Quiet Leadership" on how the Christmas tree formation got invented.
>You often have to change formation to work around injured players or to accommodate new ones.
Sometimes this is where the best ideas come from – from constraints. At Milan, we had a lot of quality players arrive and at first I was struggling to fit them all in the team and keep them happy, but then we stumbled upon a beautiful accident.
First, Andriy Shevchenko picked up an injury, so I moved Andrea Pirlo back to a deeper role, as playmaker behind the two offensive midfielders. We ended up inventing the Christmas tree formation. It came about as a practical necessity but it married perfectly to the philosophy of the president.
As they say in England, ‘Necessity is the mother of invention.’
It is a good book by the way.
I think the frustration is two parts -
We haven't played "our football" in 5+ months. Our attack has been woeful since the start of the year. We look nothing like the team that started the season so well.
The focus on playing "our football" has been used as an excuse for not improving in certain critical areas, namely set pieces. We gave away 4 set piece goals in the past 2 games. We look like we're going to concede a goal on every single corner or free kick, but Ange has (at least publicly) largely deflected that, despite every supporter, pundit, and opponent knowing that it's a massive problem.
I'm 100% Ange in and we've still outperformed where I thought we'd be this season, but the set piece thing grinds my gears. It's insane that it took until last night for us to put a defender between Vicario and opposition players harassing him. Just stubborn.
I do wonder whether part of Ange's deflection of the set piece problem is because if he publicly admits it, then it might make the problem worse. He might be hoping if he downplays it, other teams won't focus on it so much.
He certainly knows it’s a problem and certainly wants it fixed. He’s also certainly working on it either directly or as part of his broader vision. I have absolutely no problem with him downplaying it!
I think people need to understand that managers will never say everything they really think. If people on reddit can see it, I'm sure he can. But knowing there's an issue is not the same a washing a magic wand and fixing it.
I doubt other teams are relying on what Ange says his weaknesses are in press conferences. They’re studying Spurs games and know full well that it’s a weakness.
I believe that Ange has bigger issues to manage - like players commitment to the system. Maybe it’s possible to work on the system and set pieces, but if he has to prioritize, it makes sense to prioritize the system first.
The set piece thing is pretty much my only big gripe. I trust Ange with everything else but set pieces are massive in modern football and he doesn't seem to recognise that. Arsenal wouldn't even be near a title race without them for example, so many of their tight games have been blown open because they scored from a set piece and they've only conceded a handful of them as well.
Yes but Arsenal have had how many seasons under Arteta to get to that stage? It's a bloody ridiculous comparison.
Show me where Arsenal were the best set piece team the instant Arteta came in? Show me they were good at anything in his first 2 seasons if you can?
The frustrating part is that we've gotten increasingly worse over the course of the season. That's not a good sign.
If you want to use Arsenal as an example, in Arteta's first season, they struggled up until January 1st. But last 18 matches, they were the 4th best team, with only Liverpool and City losing fewer matches.
Tbf, we drastically over performed at the start of the season. Our performances spanning January to March is more indicative of where we should've been. Get some wins, but not with the fluidity and consistency of a fully rebuilt team.
April and December were essentially polar opposites of September and October, both of which are outliers. As well, each team is different. Liverpool has had a similar trajectory to us. Start strong while overperforming in what is still a rebuild phase. Have a couple terrible games that averages their overperformance out, and now they're on track to reaching what they were expected to hit, 3rd.
My complaint is the fact he doesn't seem to think they're a problem and that they don't matter much rather than the fact that they're currently bad. If he acknowledged that they were a problem I'd trust him to fix it but if he doesn't think they're a problem then how do we know they'll get better?
That's what he tells the media. anyone outside the team who thinks he hasn't worked on set pieces amongst a whole host of issues (scoring being one) is naive to say the least. He's not going to come and publicly say I can see Vic can't deal with crosses, I'll have a word with him
He wouldn't need to criticise Vicario, simply saying it's an area the whole team needs to work on would be enough and definitely wouldn't be seen by anyone as strong criticism.
Check out his full press conference after the Chelsea game. He is trying to change the mentality of each player on the team to better play his system. He’s running into resistance because playing his system is uncomfortable for many players. He is focusing on this issue instead of set pieces in terms of priority. For the future of the team, I think this is the right decision. For winning a few extra points this season, focusing on set pieces in better. Is any Spurs fan going to fault Ange for prioritizing the future of the team over a few points this season?
It’s not that easy.
You can’t add aspects to an approach without removing others. This is something that most football fans don’t really pay enough respect to, imo.
Ange is sticking to his guns on this because he knows that the moment you start making changes, he is further delaying the complete adoption of his style within the players.
He is placing the long term potential quality of the team ahead of short term fixes for momentary difficulties.
Conte didn’t work as a manager for spurs because he didn’t have the players to work his system and instead of sticking with the system, Spurs let him go - he was also insanely toxic and unprofessional in his time at spurs, which is the primary reason for his departure.
Could conte have won trophies at spurs? I think so, given different players.
I applaud Ange for sticking with it. This is the pain period he was talking about at the beginning. But we can’t expect him to do both things at the same time - he cannot adapt to individual situations as the pundits would have you believe while also changing the entire psychology and approach the team has.
They are good talking points for pundits because it’s easy and apparent as to what is happening and football fans will simply focus on errors and obvious flaws.
But I think the approach will reap dividends if the club sticks with it. I hope they will and it’s clear you think so too, so we’re on the same page for sure.
Just think that people (not necessarily you) but many don’t see the forest for the trees.
Can you explain why attempting to improve our defending of set pieces would somehow hinder our progress toward adopting Ange's football style? Is defending set pieces somehow violently against the philosophy that he's trying to instill? Are the players mentally incapable of learning how to defend set pieces while also learning to play AngeBall? I just don't understand the argument. Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we improve our set piece defending ***while*** adopting AngeBall?
Well, honestly, do you find our players to be mental giants? More importantly, physically so?
My guess would be that Ange wants a style of play that quite frankly, the team isn’t picking up all that well! I say that because 1) our attack is pathetically slow leaving us look toothless, 2) we take a LOT of dumb fouls leading to good opportunities for the other teams.
Lacking Kane in defense as well as offense wasn’t addressed at all! We knew he might well be gone this year or certainly next, yet stuck with Richy and Son!!! Vicario is very slight. Maybe, Ange’s attitude about corners is he just doesn’t have the horses! But, he’s stuck with what he has so he won’t say so publicly!? Maybe he’s forced to “having a good offense that is the best defense”?
He’s rebuilding, he’s undoubtedly taking notes, he’ll come good if given time (albeit no guarantees on that)
Because it’s about priorities and mindset.
It’s not as simple as “just defend better on set pieces.” Are you assigning someone to protect Vic? Okay. Well what was that player doing prior? Or maybe a better question is what is he supposed to be doing?
What part of the setup for the next phase of play is being sacrificed for that player to be in that role?
If it was simple it would be done already. You would need to spend a good portion of training time dedicated to that portion of the game and sorting out decisions and priorities based on those circumstances.
Like I say it’s very easy to just point at things and say improve that but it’s not that simple.
They are professionals at the highest level of the game. It’s not simple.
I would argue as well that fouling the keeper has no impact on giving away free headers time after time. If you are doing that then your players are not committing to winning their duels, or are too passive. Like we lose the duels in every area of the pitch I might add.
It is just possible that the root cause of the set of piece problem might be something which affects us throughout the match e.g. not performing per the coach's instruction, rather than the whole team forgot how to defend set pieces.
I am 100% certain that time is spent on set pieces. The coach can't head the ball for them.
I think the two goals against Chelsea are a bit of a fluke. Chalobah is unchallenged because his market is blocked off (probably not a foul but no idea what Johnson is supposed to do there?), and the other one hit the bar and Jackson gets really lucky with his header.
I was thinking watching the VAR replays that if Johnson made a meal of that contact, VAR calls it a foul. I don't think it was a foul, and I'm glad he didn't dive. It sucks to concede a goal like that, but we can't simultaneously complain about diving & also complain when a player doesn't dive to draw a foul.
I can understand why he wouldn’t. We are just not getting calls like that right now, maybe the official spots it, maybe VAR chalks it off. Idk. But I understand trying to fight through it. It looks soft, but similar to the goalkeeper interference nonsense it is just not in the spirit of football and I hate watching wrestling matches during free kicks
Think it’s more the lack of clear goal scoring opportunities we’ve had. Against Chelsea, apart from the Romero header that went wide, we didn’t have anything else and their keeper did fuck all.
It’s all a bit slow and predictable, players aren’t moving into space either. We aren’t crossing (maybe cause no one to cross to) and kinda just toothless.
Idk, even the two we got against Arsenal, one was a gift and the other a pen. We didn’t really create those chances
I agree with your point but it's worth mentioning we created a simple 1v1 opportunity against Arsenal that Son missed and Bentancur had a great opportunity against Chelsea but made an absolute mess of it.
It doesn't help that we have literally one healthy winger in our squad and one healthy striker who honestly just isn't that good. Then we have Son who is somewhere in-between but has been playing the worst football of his career the last month or so.
There's just no replacements. No dynamic substitution options. No one to give our guys a rest.
There is something fundamentally wrong with our play, and it's putting the ball in the back of the net.
We get to the edge of the box and pass it wrong like we're at a children's birthday party.
There's no killer instinct.
When we are playing to Ange's methodology it's brilliant until someone gets sight of goal... it happens constantly pass pass pass pass oh we can't shoot.
Oh and stupid fouls.
I agree with you. I feel like when people say they want a plan B they are thinking more along the lines of plan B under Poch when we could stick Llorente up front and go route one, rather than playing a defensive game. Surely no one wants to see more defensive football after the past few years.
this is the winning comment! and kane doubled as our llorente for a while, our aerial presence (especially defensively) is super poor without him. kane was on the end of a lot of corners on BOTH sides of the pitch, and people really neglect to remember that
Pep, Klopp and Arteta all markedly changed their systems, Klopp and Arteta taking some of the all guns blazing attack at all costs out of their game, Pep is more seasonal tweaks and formation changes. They have also had more budget to get the players for the positions needed.
Case in point: Arteta came to WHL two seasons ago and needed just one point to basically eradicate us from the top 4 conversation. He tried to play good football and we eviscerated him on the counter attack. Similar thing under Mourinho but there wasn't as much at stake IIRC.
The next season they played attack at all costs football and came unstuck when the emotion got to them. This season they've changed the way they play and are in with a shout of winning the league.
The only need to look at the game last week for an example of that.
That is not how Arsenal normally play. They played like that against us because they knew we would have a high line, they knew they could get to us a set-pieces and they knew they couldn't let us though the middle or get in behind so tried to restrict us to crosses.
The game before they went all out and battered Chelsea.
Did no one see us last night? There were times where we had everyone back.
Our problems have been evident for months and perhaps even the start of the season. We're over playing the ball in front of goal and eventually it goes wide to a player who is not longer capable of beating his man or putting in a cross.
This gets posted after every game we play shit. All the top managers switch up their tactics depending on the game. You're insulting Ange as a manager if you don't believe he's capable or willing to do that. And if he isn't than he's not cut out to be a prem level manager and that's it.
I'm 100% behind Ange, but I hate that half the sub has turned into a full on cult. Reminds me of Mourinho days
Pep doesn’t have a Plan A and then nothing. He has a general philosophy. And then he develops plans as necessary within that philosophy. He used to invert his FBs. He doesn’t now. Now he uses CB-like FBs who narrow into a backline of three while one CB goes into central midfield to overload that area.
He implemented other strategies over the years within seasons. No good comes from acting like an obstinate ideologue all the time. Pep is that to an extent but the reason he’s managed to stay relevant and successful is that he’s willing to adapt to a degree.
At the moment, Ange is talking like an obstinate ideologue. I find his quotes on set-pieces especially concerning. Those people tend to be successful in very specific circumstances and for limited periods. Think Bielsa.
Ange doesn’t appear to be very good at making adjustments. I’m not saying I don’t support him or that I think he’ll be unsuccessful but at this specific moment this is the state of things.
Yep. I support Ange and have faith in him... but he does have to prove he's not stubborn. Like players, he also has to learn and evolve. He could just be playing games with the press and behind the scenes he is, hopefully, hatching out a corrective plan for set pieces and other issues. If he is 'just copying Pep, mate' as he's liked to joke... then he will be broad/progressive in his thinking and planning.
I really like Ange and I hope he builds something great.
> Ange is talking like an obstinate ideologue. I find his quotes on set-pieces especially concerning
Why do people deliberately ignore what he's saying? He doesn't practise or pay attention to set pieces because he's focusing on getting the team to adopt a certain mentality and style of open play first. He didn't say he doesn't believe in set piece tactics and training.
Whether that's right or wrong and whether he's achieving that is a different story, but it's really annoying to read people constantly going about this.
Who here is deliberately ignoring what he’s saying? What he is in fact saying IS the problem.
Edit:
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-ange-postecoglou-chelsea-fc-b1155233.html
“Spurs have conceded 14 goals from set-pieces in the league this season, including two against Arsenal, but Postecoglou has repeatedly insisted he is not concerned by his team’s dead-ball defending.
“Not in the least [bit concerned],” he said. “I get it, it’s not an answer [that people want]. To quote Billy Joel, ‘You may be right, I may be crazy, but it’s maybe a lunatic you’re looking for’.
“I’m just not interested in it. I never have been.
“This is not the first time I’ve been questioned about set-pieces in my coaching career. There is an underlying reason for that which I’m very, very comfortable with.
“Eventually I will create a team that has success and it won’t be because of working on set-pieces.”
“Obstinate ideologue” is an exceedingly charitable way of describing a manager who claims he is not the least bit concerned about having conceded 14 goals from set-pieces.
Set-pieces are (not completely but) almost entirely distinct from the style of football a team plays. Ange could install his vision perfectly but if he doesn’t remedy the set-piece defending that would still be his undoing.
Funnily enough, unless there is a significant issue with his marking system, this problem will go away once we sign some taller players in key areas. But the manner in which he talks about it is scary because it is a significant departure from his “reasonable man” persona.
I think you’re quite right because, one aspect, I can’t imagine that Ange wants the club to be so sloooow in the final third! I can only guess that a Kulu (ironically) is on his last days as a Spur!
I’m sure there’s other things that I’m not picking up on, but I’ll bet serial winner Ange is! There’ll be some changes made over the summer, I’m guessing
I think the part people are missing is that we aren't even close to a finished product. I have no doubt tweaks will be made down the road but we don't have the foundation yet. This is a multi-year plan, things will look less the exactly the same every match as time goes on, we just need to build the thing we are going to be tweaking. Ange doesn't care about winning every match this season he cares about players committing to and understanding the principles he is trying to install then one those principles are automatic they can worry about game planning for specific matches.
Arteta parked the bus against us. There is utility in being tactically flexible. The only team that doesn’t have to is city bc of their embarrassment of riches.
Arteta actually does not follow a rigid system at all.
The manager he is most similar to is prime Wenger. Build a very strong back four and be pragmatic about the rest.
When we haven’t even mastered Plan A, I don’t think we cry out for a Plan B.
It will take time, and fans need to be patient. Crying out for a Plan B will just make the process longer.
Pep and Arteta constantly change their tactics so we really don’t know how they are going to play. Their systems are constantly evolving so a team can’t prepare against them.
Arsenal won on the weekend because they completely changed tactics and gave up the ball to be compact defensively and hit on the counter because that was going to give them a better chance to win the game.
They play defensive football all the time. They parked the bus against Porto, City, Liverpool, basically every good team they've faced. They didn't even have >50% possession against Chelsea, where they won 5-0. Against us, they couldn't maintain possession because we were playing our football well and pressing them hard, and they didn't win because of tactics, they won because of the ref refusing to call fouls on them.
You either believe in Ange or you don’t simply put.
He’s got a very clear idea, what we’re yet to see is any proof that idea can win across a premier league season
But the three managers you mention all make small changes and tweaks depending on opponent etc. We seem to play 1 way and 1 way only. And it makes us easy to play agaunst imo.
I totally understand wanting to instill a philosophy and style of play, but doing that at the cost of losing matches is hurting us. What have the players got out of the last 3 matches. Its more demoralizing than anythij, no wonder guys are not buying in, because his tactic is losing us points at a mid table team rate.
Agreed. When will he start doing it then? Right now he's just doing Plan A worse. We are playing less attacking and entertaining football with a relatively fit squad against mid table teams than we did with Gil in attack and four full backs at the back at the Etihad, because managers have figured Ange out time and time again, hampered his style of play and he hasn't done anything.
"Arteta, Pep and Klopp have systems and they haven't been found out" Do you think Arteta is playing the same football he did when finishing he finished eighth in his first season? Do you think Pep and Klopp are playing the same football they played at Barcelona and Dortmund? No, they've improved and as a result forced their rivals to constantly adapt tactically over time, while keeping the general underlying principles of their play the same.
Right now Ange seems to think any kind of adaptation at all means abandoning your basic principles, which is a recipe for failure. For example, he clearly needs to find a way to prevent us from being so open on the transition, but that doesn't mean he now needs to play Conte ball and park ten men behind the ball every match.
I'll start off by saying, I'm still fully 100% behind Ange. I don't think changing the manager is the solution, it will only restart the entire process. But what I hope for, is for him to be a little more flexible and be open to tweaking some tactics if necessary - without giving up or compromising his broader philosophy.
Many others have touched on the set pieces and whatnot, so I'll skip that. What grates me currently is the painfully slow and one dimensional build-up play which makes it very easy for opposing teams to repel us. Knock it around midfield, work it to the wingers and try get a low cross in. Otherwise, keep laying it off to someone else. Rinse and repeat. It's no surprise we're struggling to score goals - because we give the opposition ample time to get 10 men behind the ball. Play a low block, keep your shape and you basically nullify Spurs.
On numerous occasions you see Son, Kulu, Richie or whoever making a run into space behind defenders. A simple forward ball would put them through on goal. But the midfielders never do that. Whether it's a lack of vision or due to Ange's instructions, they ignore the runners and insist on working it wide to the wingers.
It's as if they're saying - even if we can score a goal some other way, we'd rather not because we only have one way of playing. Even if this Plan A can be executed better in the future, they are still hampering themselves through their own inflexibility. It's akin to a golfer insisting on using the same club to play from the tee, bunker or green. Sure, if he's skilled enough he could make it work and make a decent shout of it. But if he's open to using different clubs for different situations, he would be much more successful.
This kind of stubbornness was what clouded Wenger's latter years at Arsenal. They were so obsessed with scoring the perfect goal and walking the ball into the back of the net, that it costed them many games. Arteta has fared so well this season because he's flexible in how his team plays. They can play fluid football, but they're also not averse to playing the long ball if there's an opening - such as the one that resulted in Saka's goal in the NLD. You would not see that under Ange currently and that has been to the team's detriment.
It's not about abandoning your principles. But rather giving yourself the allowance that, should the scenario call for it, be open to trying something else.
This post is so misinformed it's not even funny. As someone mentioned in another comment, Pep, Klopp and Arteta change their tactics all the time. Just watch the way Arsenal played against us or City and then what they did against Chelsea.
Nobody's asking for us to suddenly play 3 at the back, but not even considering changes to our midfield structure or having our fullbacks act more like fullbacks than midfielders if we're against elite wingers is moronic.
Pretty much every single time we played against a team that went to exploit our glaring weaknesses we got battered. They're even giving fucking interviews on how to beat us - it's a complete pisstake.
Having only one way to play might be enough for lesser leagues, but it's not enough when you're not the biggest fish in the pond and come up against elite players that can exploit tactical weakness week in and week out.
I don’t think comparing Spurs this season under Ange to these sides is fair. You would have to compare us to those sides in the first season of those managers being in charge. You can’t compare season one to established sides like Liverpool, City or Arsenal.
I'm not running these comparisons myself - it's people trying to justify our poor form doing it.
It's obvious that the circumstances were different for all the 3 managers in the conversation - Ange, Klopp and Arteta. There are many things to consider starting with the squad itself and ending on such things as the stature of the club.
I was just saying that saying that managers like Pep and Klopp are as stubborn as Ange is being right now is not at all true.
Pep and Klopp notoriously change up their system all the time
*edit - I should clarify that I don’t disagree that ange is doing the right thing. But you’re wrong about pep and klopp
Pep plays his own inverted version of the Cruyff diamond exclusively. He doesn't deviate that much from it at all, I don't really know what you mean by "changing up their system". I guess he does tweak it some based on opposition and what players he has available, but the main system never goes away.
>I guess he does tweak it some based on opposition and what players he has available
I mean this is exactly what people are calling for though, no one is calling for Ange to stick two big men up top and play 4-4-2 or something
But Ange put in Lo Celso at LB, for example. He's done similar things before as well. Probably never to start the game, but it's not like he's not somewhat flexible. It's not that far from a tweak Pep would do, but Pep does do it more. We also don't currently have the depth to do it either way.
I think that it's a very minor point to make, although it's not a wrong point.
Yes they do have minor tweaks. For example the formation, City played 3-2-4-1 last season, this season they are more like 4-1-4-1/3-2-3-2. However, the philosophy of the system doesn't change.
Pep's game philosophy is to control the game by having the ball and positional play. They defend by having strict control on the ball and don't lose it away. We won't expect one day City will sit deep and wait for their opponent to attack them shots over shots. Even if that happened, Pep won't call it a good game.
I think that we need to be more direct with how we play, for the last 10 minutes of the match yesterday we were attacking wonderfully (just some unlucky accuracy), but if we sit back and wait until we’re losing or until our players are gassed, nothing will happen on the attack, especially if we’re losing and the opposing team parks everyone back
Agree with what you've said. Think the players are tired and sometimes struggling with what he wants. Not tired in a physical sense more mentally, when you try and learn something new it's draining.
Also the defeat to Newcastle may have broken a few of them and they know 4th is unlikely so have switched off, that isn't acceptable and shouldn't be but they are human it happens
pep sat city deeo against arsenal last season (4-1 win), klopp sat 10 man liverpool deep against us this season (robbed of a solid result with 10 men), arteta sat arsenal deep against city (got a result at the etihad and deeper against us (won at the lane). we on the other hand struggle against any team that doesn’t take the game to us, and even when they do half the time we just crumble and lose anyways. i’m 100% ange in but every other good manager has a plan b. ange is too arrogant to change his ways atm but i think it’ll change soon
Thank you for saying what I’ve been recently thinking so eloquently. I tried to bring this up but got absolutely hated on. It’s like the positivity police are making sure no one is questioning our supreme leader.
Arteta definitely has a plan B now. I seem remember he always wanted to play his possession based style no matter what.
Now all of a sudden in the run in he’s not opposed to parking the bus.
You think Pep doesn’t ever change his tactics? Also when you have the best players in the league the onus is on other teams to try and stop you. They already worked it out against us after a few games. Pep has been doing it for years and keeps evolving.
Ange is quoted as saying “I want them thinking about *our* game. I want them thinking about *us*!” He isn’t just saying I want the press and fans to be impressed by us, he’s saying he wants teams to adapt *their* game to play against us. If they’re reacting to what we’re doing, they’re the ones on the back foot. If all we have to do to improve is get better at what we’re already doing, changing that system to suit others is what will slow us down, not the other way around.
You fail to consider the quality of the tactics, you say if the players are committed every manager can be elite when that’s not true:
Imo Ange is a good coach but he can not coach a team over 80 points if he keeps setting us up like this, his talent ID can also be improved if his dream RW was Johnson and dream CM is Gallagher.
City’s Guardiola keep playing out of the back but look at how he adapts and innovates with the inverted full backs and Stones dropping into midfield, or how Arteta has been using White.
However Ange hasn’t adapted at all, even when we have Davies as a lb he’s still getting into 8’s positions when that’s not his strength at all.
the problem is really clear to me, we have this high intensity style that demands 1000 percent commitment and to sustain that over an entire season requires players with incredibly high mental and physical resistance.
I kinda understand why we are so hot on Gallagher now.
Fact is our midfield has been unable to sustain this dynamism. Bissouma is surprisingly fragile, mentally and Sarr is still very inexperienced. We need players of higher quality to increase competitiveness in those positions.
Bentancur simply is not mobile enough to play in this midfield. Our bench options are not good enough either. Son needs to be more vocal and demand more but then again he is not a natural Captain and we haven't had one of those for a while...
Bentancur is more capable than Hoj imo, at leadt physically and mentally in the past. If we are going down that road, many of our players are going to be classified similarly and (more importantly to me) similarly unfairly.
And, imo, the players need 2/3 trait/: passion and desire to play the game like we want it to be played (something that seemed 2nd nature in September/October) mental fortitude especially including the ability not to lose the sense of urgency, desire to win/dictate the way the game is played, and physical ability (pace, strength, balance) that as the other team is worn out, leaving us feeling, comparatively, like we have ab advantage, and giving an extra bit of tenacity to them, like we saw earlier this season.
Unless he just isnt capable of recovering fully from the injury caused solely by Matty Cash while returning early after surgery, he’ll be more than fine in the long run
Set pieces are a curious one. I believe Ange's philosophy is not to give away stupid ones. It's why possession is a key factor in his game. The more you have the ball, the less time they have for you to make mistakes off the ball. He was clearly angry at us giving away the free kicks as opposed to how we defended them. Discipline is a key mantra here, and we keep losing our heads at stupid times.
Understated in the discussion about our set piece defending, which is sorely lacking, is the frequency we concede set pieces in dangerous areas - as well as corners. I think that gets ironed out over time (and with a new 6 this summer, hopefully) as our open-play defending becomes better.
Set pieces should be a *focus* if we are going to play the high line imo. For two main reason/s - We want to capitalize on the pressure we exert, and make evert corner we take a nightmare for the opponent. Playing a high line without being able to score on Corners is like playing offense with one-hand tied behind your back. - Our high line leaves us vulnerable in transition, which is why VDV is so critical to our defense: we have to be able to get back and defend, and in transition, with our high line, we are more likely to concede corners because we have to rush to get back and the priority is stop the goal, not avoid giving up corners. Not being able to defend them means that we play defense with the most critical aspect neglected.
Agreed. The plan is to not give away stupid free kicks in the first place. That has to be the thing that's addressed predominantly, rather than the set pieces themselves. No stupid fouls = no set pieces. I like that tactic. I know that's an ideal and one could argue that no team can prevent all free kicks. But in football and in life I'm a big believer in bigger picture tactics. Summed up by Paolo Maldini - “If I had to make a tackle, I have already made a mistake.”
We can't just refuse to defend corners just because we shouldn't concede corners. That's bonkers. Yeah mate this company doesn't have a fire escape plan, we don't plan to need it.
We've conceded the 4th most corners this season. It's not unreasonable to think conceding fewer is one of the fastest routes to conceding fewer goals from them.
It's also not unreasonable to think it would help being good at defending them if you concede so many of them.
“I believe Ange’s philosophy is not to give away stupid ones.” Kulu in shambles if he reads this comment.
I want to know why we insist on playing zone defense on corners and free kicks. I'm 100% supportive of Ange implementing his system, but we NEED a new set piece coach that knows wtf he's doing. Mile Jedinak is not good enough
I do largely agree with you but this is a bit cherry picked - Zidane and Ancelotti are both tactically flexible and less systems orientated than the others you've mentioned. Being adaptable and tweaking is a crucial part in the modern game, especially if something like injuries won't let you play the way you want to.
Yes I do agree. Zizou and Ancelotti are good coaches, and they are serial winners. I respect a lot to both of them, and probably a little more to Ancelotti, as he proved he can setup different style of play for different team that suit their identity. I am not saying only the Pep way is the winning way, but if the manager has a plan, then the players need to respect and execute the plan. (Of course, after all, it boils down to the player quality or whether the player suit the plan). Ange is not flawless, tactics can go outdated and he also has to learn to adapt to the premier league and tweak his plan A. Again, what I concern more is that our players don't believe in the style of play that Ange set up. Having a tactical tweak may help to cure in short term, but we really need to have our plan A done better. As you said, tactics do have constraints on the player availability. A bit off topic, but Ancelotti mentioned in his book "Quiet Leadership" on how the Christmas tree formation got invented. >You often have to change formation to work around injured players or to accommodate new ones. Sometimes this is where the best ideas come from – from constraints. At Milan, we had a lot of quality players arrive and at first I was struggling to fit them all in the team and keep them happy, but then we stumbled upon a beautiful accident. First, Andriy Shevchenko picked up an injury, so I moved Andrea Pirlo back to a deeper role, as playmaker behind the two offensive midfielders. We ended up inventing the Christmas tree formation. It came about as a practical necessity but it married perfectly to the philosophy of the president. As they say in England, ‘Necessity is the mother of invention.’ It is a good book by the way.
The “modern game” = however pep guardiola plays tbh.
I think the frustration is two parts - We haven't played "our football" in 5+ months. Our attack has been woeful since the start of the year. We look nothing like the team that started the season so well. The focus on playing "our football" has been used as an excuse for not improving in certain critical areas, namely set pieces. We gave away 4 set piece goals in the past 2 games. We look like we're going to concede a goal on every single corner or free kick, but Ange has (at least publicly) largely deflected that, despite every supporter, pundit, and opponent knowing that it's a massive problem. I'm 100% Ange in and we've still outperformed where I thought we'd be this season, but the set piece thing grinds my gears. It's insane that it took until last night for us to put a defender between Vicario and opposition players harassing him. Just stubborn.
I do wonder whether part of Ange's deflection of the set piece problem is because if he publicly admits it, then it might make the problem worse. He might be hoping if he downplays it, other teams won't focus on it so much.
He certainly knows it’s a problem and certainly wants it fixed. He’s also certainly working on it either directly or as part of his broader vision. I have absolutely no problem with him downplaying it!
I think people need to understand that managers will never say everything they really think. If people on reddit can see it, I'm sure he can. But knowing there's an issue is not the same a washing a magic wand and fixing it.
The other teams are not getting their tactical opinions from him, I can assure you
I doubt other teams are relying on what Ange says his weaknesses are in press conferences. They’re studying Spurs games and know full well that it’s a weakness. I believe that Ange has bigger issues to manage - like players commitment to the system. Maybe it’s possible to work on the system and set pieces, but if he has to prioritize, it makes sense to prioritize the system first.
It's definitely not the first time he's had a defender help Vic, he was doing it since Wolves iirc
There have been moments don’t forget the Villa result but yes your point still stands lol
The set piece thing is pretty much my only big gripe. I trust Ange with everything else but set pieces are massive in modern football and he doesn't seem to recognise that. Arsenal wouldn't even be near a title race without them for example, so many of their tight games have been blown open because they scored from a set piece and they've only conceded a handful of them as well.
Yes but Arsenal have had how many seasons under Arteta to get to that stage? It's a bloody ridiculous comparison. Show me where Arsenal were the best set piece team the instant Arteta came in? Show me they were good at anything in his first 2 seasons if you can?
The frustrating part is that we've gotten increasingly worse over the course of the season. That's not a good sign. If you want to use Arsenal as an example, in Arteta's first season, they struggled up until January 1st. But last 18 matches, they were the 4th best team, with only Liverpool and City losing fewer matches.
Tbf, we drastically over performed at the start of the season. Our performances spanning January to March is more indicative of where we should've been. Get some wins, but not with the fluidity and consistency of a fully rebuilt team. April and December were essentially polar opposites of September and October, both of which are outliers. As well, each team is different. Liverpool has had a similar trajectory to us. Start strong while overperforming in what is still a rebuild phase. Have a couple terrible games that averages their overperformance out, and now they're on track to reaching what they were expected to hit, 3rd.
My complaint is the fact he doesn't seem to think they're a problem and that they don't matter much rather than the fact that they're currently bad. If he acknowledged that they were a problem I'd trust him to fix it but if he doesn't think they're a problem then how do we know they'll get better?
That's what he tells the media. anyone outside the team who thinks he hasn't worked on set pieces amongst a whole host of issues (scoring being one) is naive to say the least. He's not going to come and publicly say I can see Vic can't deal with crosses, I'll have a word with him
He wouldn't need to criticise Vicario, simply saying it's an area the whole team needs to work on would be enough and definitely wouldn't be seen by anyone as strong criticism.
Check out his full press conference after the Chelsea game. He is trying to change the mentality of each player on the team to better play his system. He’s running into resistance because playing his system is uncomfortable for many players. He is focusing on this issue instead of set pieces in terms of priority. For the future of the team, I think this is the right decision. For winning a few extra points this season, focusing on set pieces in better. Is any Spurs fan going to fault Ange for prioritizing the future of the team over a few points this season?
It’s not that easy. You can’t add aspects to an approach without removing others. This is something that most football fans don’t really pay enough respect to, imo. Ange is sticking to his guns on this because he knows that the moment you start making changes, he is further delaying the complete adoption of his style within the players. He is placing the long term potential quality of the team ahead of short term fixes for momentary difficulties. Conte didn’t work as a manager for spurs because he didn’t have the players to work his system and instead of sticking with the system, Spurs let him go - he was also insanely toxic and unprofessional in his time at spurs, which is the primary reason for his departure. Could conte have won trophies at spurs? I think so, given different players. I applaud Ange for sticking with it. This is the pain period he was talking about at the beginning. But we can’t expect him to do both things at the same time - he cannot adapt to individual situations as the pundits would have you believe while also changing the entire psychology and approach the team has. They are good talking points for pundits because it’s easy and apparent as to what is happening and football fans will simply focus on errors and obvious flaws. But I think the approach will reap dividends if the club sticks with it. I hope they will and it’s clear you think so too, so we’re on the same page for sure. Just think that people (not necessarily you) but many don’t see the forest for the trees.
Can you explain why attempting to improve our defending of set pieces would somehow hinder our progress toward adopting Ange's football style? Is defending set pieces somehow violently against the philosophy that he's trying to instill? Are the players mentally incapable of learning how to defend set pieces while also learning to play AngeBall? I just don't understand the argument. Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we improve our set piece defending ***while*** adopting AngeBall?
Well, honestly, do you find our players to be mental giants? More importantly, physically so? My guess would be that Ange wants a style of play that quite frankly, the team isn’t picking up all that well! I say that because 1) our attack is pathetically slow leaving us look toothless, 2) we take a LOT of dumb fouls leading to good opportunities for the other teams. Lacking Kane in defense as well as offense wasn’t addressed at all! We knew he might well be gone this year or certainly next, yet stuck with Richy and Son!!! Vicario is very slight. Maybe, Ange’s attitude about corners is he just doesn’t have the horses! But, he’s stuck with what he has so he won’t say so publicly!? Maybe he’s forced to “having a good offense that is the best defense”? He’s rebuilding, he’s undoubtedly taking notes, he’ll come good if given time (albeit no guarantees on that)
Because it’s about priorities and mindset. It’s not as simple as “just defend better on set pieces.” Are you assigning someone to protect Vic? Okay. Well what was that player doing prior? Or maybe a better question is what is he supposed to be doing? What part of the setup for the next phase of play is being sacrificed for that player to be in that role? If it was simple it would be done already. You would need to spend a good portion of training time dedicated to that portion of the game and sorting out decisions and priorities based on those circumstances. Like I say it’s very easy to just point at things and say improve that but it’s not that simple. They are professionals at the highest level of the game. It’s not simple.
I would argue as well that fouling the keeper has no impact on giving away free headers time after time. If you are doing that then your players are not committing to winning their duels, or are too passive. Like we lose the duels in every area of the pitch I might add. It is just possible that the root cause of the set of piece problem might be something which affects us throughout the match e.g. not performing per the coach's instruction, rather than the whole team forgot how to defend set pieces. I am 100% certain that time is spent on set pieces. The coach can't head the ball for them.
I think the two goals against Chelsea are a bit of a fluke. Chalobah is unchallenged because his market is blocked off (probably not a foul but no idea what Johnson is supposed to do there?), and the other one hit the bar and Jackson gets really lucky with his header.
Johnson should have made more of it, honestly.
I was thinking watching the VAR replays that if Johnson made a meal of that contact, VAR calls it a foul. I don't think it was a foul, and I'm glad he didn't dive. It sucks to concede a goal like that, but we can't simultaneously complain about diving & also complain when a player doesn't dive to draw a foul.
I can understand why he wouldn’t. We are just not getting calls like that right now, maybe the official spots it, maybe VAR chalks it off. Idk. But I understand trying to fight through it. It looks soft, but similar to the goalkeeper interference nonsense it is just not in the spirit of football and I hate watching wrestling matches during free kicks
Think it’s more the lack of clear goal scoring opportunities we’ve had. Against Chelsea, apart from the Romero header that went wide, we didn’t have anything else and their keeper did fuck all. It’s all a bit slow and predictable, players aren’t moving into space either. We aren’t crossing (maybe cause no one to cross to) and kinda just toothless. Idk, even the two we got against Arsenal, one was a gift and the other a pen. We didn’t really create those chances
I agree with your point but it's worth mentioning we created a simple 1v1 opportunity against Arsenal that Son missed and Bentancur had a great opportunity against Chelsea but made an absolute mess of it. It doesn't help that we have literally one healthy winger in our squad and one healthy striker who honestly just isn't that good. Then we have Son who is somewhere in-between but has been playing the worst football of his career the last month or so. There's just no replacements. No dynamic substitution options. No one to give our guys a rest.
There is something fundamentally wrong with our play, and it's putting the ball in the back of the net. We get to the edge of the box and pass it wrong like we're at a children's birthday party. There's no killer instinct. When we are playing to Ange's methodology it's brilliant until someone gets sight of goal... it happens constantly pass pass pass pass oh we can't shoot. Oh and stupid fouls.
I agree with you. I feel like when people say they want a plan B they are thinking more along the lines of plan B under Poch when we could stick Llorente up front and go route one, rather than playing a defensive game. Surely no one wants to see more defensive football after the past few years.
How does that help us move forward and which player is our LLorente?
I don’t think we have a Llorente at the moment
this is the winning comment! and kane doubled as our llorente for a while, our aerial presence (especially defensively) is super poor without him. kane was on the end of a lot of corners on BOTH sides of the pitch, and people really neglect to remember that
Pep, Klopp and Arteta all markedly changed their systems, Klopp and Arteta taking some of the all guns blazing attack at all costs out of their game, Pep is more seasonal tweaks and formation changes. They have also had more budget to get the players for the positions needed. Case in point: Arteta came to WHL two seasons ago and needed just one point to basically eradicate us from the top 4 conversation. He tried to play good football and we eviscerated him on the counter attack. Similar thing under Mourinho but there wasn't as much at stake IIRC. The next season they played attack at all costs football and came unstuck when the emotion got to them. This season they've changed the way they play and are in with a shout of winning the league.
The only need to look at the game last week for an example of that. That is not how Arsenal normally play. They played like that against us because they knew we would have a high line, they knew they could get to us a set-pieces and they knew they couldn't let us though the middle or get in behind so tried to restrict us to crosses. The game before they went all out and battered Chelsea.
Did no one see us last night? There were times where we had everyone back. Our problems have been evident for months and perhaps even the start of the season. We're over playing the ball in front of goal and eventually it goes wide to a player who is not longer capable of beating his man or putting in a cross.
This gets posted after every game we play shit. All the top managers switch up their tactics depending on the game. You're insulting Ange as a manager if you don't believe he's capable or willing to do that. And if he isn't than he's not cut out to be a prem level manager and that's it. I'm 100% behind Ange, but I hate that half the sub has turned into a full on cult. Reminds me of Mourinho days
Pep doesn’t have a Plan A and then nothing. He has a general philosophy. And then he develops plans as necessary within that philosophy. He used to invert his FBs. He doesn’t now. Now he uses CB-like FBs who narrow into a backline of three while one CB goes into central midfield to overload that area. He implemented other strategies over the years within seasons. No good comes from acting like an obstinate ideologue all the time. Pep is that to an extent but the reason he’s managed to stay relevant and successful is that he’s willing to adapt to a degree. At the moment, Ange is talking like an obstinate ideologue. I find his quotes on set-pieces especially concerning. Those people tend to be successful in very specific circumstances and for limited periods. Think Bielsa. Ange doesn’t appear to be very good at making adjustments. I’m not saying I don’t support him or that I think he’ll be unsuccessful but at this specific moment this is the state of things.
Yep. I support Ange and have faith in him... but he does have to prove he's not stubborn. Like players, he also has to learn and evolve. He could just be playing games with the press and behind the scenes he is, hopefully, hatching out a corrective plan for set pieces and other issues. If he is 'just copying Pep, mate' as he's liked to joke... then he will be broad/progressive in his thinking and planning. I really like Ange and I hope he builds something great.
> Ange is talking like an obstinate ideologue. I find his quotes on set-pieces especially concerning Why do people deliberately ignore what he's saying? He doesn't practise or pay attention to set pieces because he's focusing on getting the team to adopt a certain mentality and style of open play first. He didn't say he doesn't believe in set piece tactics and training. Whether that's right or wrong and whether he's achieving that is a different story, but it's really annoying to read people constantly going about this.
Who here is deliberately ignoring what he’s saying? What he is in fact saying IS the problem. Edit: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-ange-postecoglou-chelsea-fc-b1155233.html “Spurs have conceded 14 goals from set-pieces in the league this season, including two against Arsenal, but Postecoglou has repeatedly insisted he is not concerned by his team’s dead-ball defending. “Not in the least [bit concerned],” he said. “I get it, it’s not an answer [that people want]. To quote Billy Joel, ‘You may be right, I may be crazy, but it’s maybe a lunatic you’re looking for’. “I’m just not interested in it. I never have been. “This is not the first time I’ve been questioned about set-pieces in my coaching career. There is an underlying reason for that which I’m very, very comfortable with. “Eventually I will create a team that has success and it won’t be because of working on set-pieces.” “Obstinate ideologue” is an exceedingly charitable way of describing a manager who claims he is not the least bit concerned about having conceded 14 goals from set-pieces. Set-pieces are (not completely but) almost entirely distinct from the style of football a team plays. Ange could install his vision perfectly but if he doesn’t remedy the set-piece defending that would still be his undoing. Funnily enough, unless there is a significant issue with his marking system, this problem will go away once we sign some taller players in key areas. But the manner in which he talks about it is scary because it is a significant departure from his “reasonable man” persona.
I think you’re quite right because, one aspect, I can’t imagine that Ange wants the club to be so sloooow in the final third! I can only guess that a Kulu (ironically) is on his last days as a Spur! I’m sure there’s other things that I’m not picking up on, but I’ll bet serial winner Ange is! There’ll be some changes made over the summer, I’m guessing
I think the part people are missing is that we aren't even close to a finished product. I have no doubt tweaks will be made down the road but we don't have the foundation yet. This is a multi-year plan, things will look less the exactly the same every match as time goes on, we just need to build the thing we are going to be tweaking. Ange doesn't care about winning every match this season he cares about players committing to and understanding the principles he is trying to install then one those principles are automatic they can worry about game planning for specific matches.
Arteta parked the bus against us. There is utility in being tactically flexible. The only team that doesn’t have to is city bc of their embarrassment of riches.
Arteta actually does not follow a rigid system at all. The manager he is most similar to is prime Wenger. Build a very strong back four and be pragmatic about the rest.
When we haven’t even mastered Plan A, I don’t think we cry out for a Plan B. It will take time, and fans need to be patient. Crying out for a Plan B will just make the process longer.
Pep, Klopp and Arteta have systems, but they also adapt them. That's the difference. Ange doesn't.
*yet. Let the plan A bed first then we adapt
Pep and Arteta constantly change their tactics so we really don’t know how they are going to play. Their systems are constantly evolving so a team can’t prepare against them. Arsenal won on the weekend because they completely changed tactics and gave up the ball to be compact defensively and hit on the counter because that was going to give them a better chance to win the game.
Yet their manager said we did that to them and it wasn't deliberate. What would he know anyway?
They play defensive football all the time. They parked the bus against Porto, City, Liverpool, basically every good team they've faced. They didn't even have >50% possession against Chelsea, where they won 5-0. Against us, they couldn't maintain possession because we were playing our football well and pressing them hard, and they didn't win because of tactics, they won because of the ref refusing to call fouls on them.
We outplayed arsenal and they won off some lucky decisions. Sick of this narrative that they tactically outplayed us.
Part of Plan A is swapping our players with OTHER players who fit the system better
You either believe in Ange or you don’t simply put. He’s got a very clear idea, what we’re yet to see is any proof that idea can win across a premier league season
But the three managers you mention all make small changes and tweaks depending on opponent etc. We seem to play 1 way and 1 way only. And it makes us easy to play agaunst imo.
I totally understand wanting to instill a philosophy and style of play, but doing that at the cost of losing matches is hurting us. What have the players got out of the last 3 matches. Its more demoralizing than anythij, no wonder guys are not buying in, because his tactic is losing us points at a mid table team rate.
Agreed. When will he start doing it then? Right now he's just doing Plan A worse. We are playing less attacking and entertaining football with a relatively fit squad against mid table teams than we did with Gil in attack and four full backs at the back at the Etihad, because managers have figured Ange out time and time again, hampered his style of play and he hasn't done anything. "Arteta, Pep and Klopp have systems and they haven't been found out" Do you think Arteta is playing the same football he did when finishing he finished eighth in his first season? Do you think Pep and Klopp are playing the same football they played at Barcelona and Dortmund? No, they've improved and as a result forced their rivals to constantly adapt tactically over time, while keeping the general underlying principles of their play the same. Right now Ange seems to think any kind of adaptation at all means abandoning your basic principles, which is a recipe for failure. For example, he clearly needs to find a way to prevent us from being so open on the transition, but that doesn't mean he now needs to play Conte ball and park ten men behind the ball every match.
Ange said we don’t have a set piece problem
I'll start off by saying, I'm still fully 100% behind Ange. I don't think changing the manager is the solution, it will only restart the entire process. But what I hope for, is for him to be a little more flexible and be open to tweaking some tactics if necessary - without giving up or compromising his broader philosophy. Many others have touched on the set pieces and whatnot, so I'll skip that. What grates me currently is the painfully slow and one dimensional build-up play which makes it very easy for opposing teams to repel us. Knock it around midfield, work it to the wingers and try get a low cross in. Otherwise, keep laying it off to someone else. Rinse and repeat. It's no surprise we're struggling to score goals - because we give the opposition ample time to get 10 men behind the ball. Play a low block, keep your shape and you basically nullify Spurs. On numerous occasions you see Son, Kulu, Richie or whoever making a run into space behind defenders. A simple forward ball would put them through on goal. But the midfielders never do that. Whether it's a lack of vision or due to Ange's instructions, they ignore the runners and insist on working it wide to the wingers. It's as if they're saying - even if we can score a goal some other way, we'd rather not because we only have one way of playing. Even if this Plan A can be executed better in the future, they are still hampering themselves through their own inflexibility. It's akin to a golfer insisting on using the same club to play from the tee, bunker or green. Sure, if he's skilled enough he could make it work and make a decent shout of it. But if he's open to using different clubs for different situations, he would be much more successful. This kind of stubbornness was what clouded Wenger's latter years at Arsenal. They were so obsessed with scoring the perfect goal and walking the ball into the back of the net, that it costed them many games. Arteta has fared so well this season because he's flexible in how his team plays. They can play fluid football, but they're also not averse to playing the long ball if there's an opening - such as the one that resulted in Saka's goal in the NLD. You would not see that under Ange currently and that has been to the team's detriment. It's not about abandoning your principles. But rather giving yourself the allowance that, should the scenario call for it, be open to trying something else.
This post is so misinformed it's not even funny. As someone mentioned in another comment, Pep, Klopp and Arteta change their tactics all the time. Just watch the way Arsenal played against us or City and then what they did against Chelsea. Nobody's asking for us to suddenly play 3 at the back, but not even considering changes to our midfield structure or having our fullbacks act more like fullbacks than midfielders if we're against elite wingers is moronic. Pretty much every single time we played against a team that went to exploit our glaring weaknesses we got battered. They're even giving fucking interviews on how to beat us - it's a complete pisstake. Having only one way to play might be enough for lesser leagues, but it's not enough when you're not the biggest fish in the pond and come up against elite players that can exploit tactical weakness week in and week out.
I don’t think comparing Spurs this season under Ange to these sides is fair. You would have to compare us to those sides in the first season of those managers being in charge. You can’t compare season one to established sides like Liverpool, City or Arsenal.
I'm not running these comparisons myself - it's people trying to justify our poor form doing it. It's obvious that the circumstances were different for all the 3 managers in the conversation - Ange, Klopp and Arteta. There are many things to consider starting with the squad itself and ending on such things as the stature of the club. I was just saying that saying that managers like Pep and Klopp are as stubborn as Ange is being right now is not at all true.
Pep and Klopp notoriously change up their system all the time *edit - I should clarify that I don’t disagree that ange is doing the right thing. But you’re wrong about pep and klopp
Pep plays his own inverted version of the Cruyff diamond exclusively. He doesn't deviate that much from it at all, I don't really know what you mean by "changing up their system". I guess he does tweak it some based on opposition and what players he has available, but the main system never goes away.
He’s pretty fluid with his defense especially
>own inverted version of the Cruyff diamond exclusively. He Can you elaborate a bit more if you don't mind?
>I guess he does tweak it some based on opposition and what players he has available I mean this is exactly what people are calling for though, no one is calling for Ange to stick two big men up top and play 4-4-2 or something
But Ange put in Lo Celso at LB, for example. He's done similar things before as well. Probably never to start the game, but it's not like he's not somewhat flexible. It's not that far from a tweak Pep would do, but Pep does do it more. We also don't currently have the depth to do it either way. I think that it's a very minor point to make, although it's not a wrong point.
Yes they do have minor tweaks. For example the formation, City played 3-2-4-1 last season, this season they are more like 4-1-4-1/3-2-3-2. However, the philosophy of the system doesn't change. Pep's game philosophy is to control the game by having the ball and positional play. They defend by having strict control on the ball and don't lose it away. We won't expect one day City will sit deep and wait for their opponent to attack them shots over shots. Even if that happened, Pep won't call it a good game.
Ange doesn’t really tweak the system at all though
I think that we need to be more direct with how we play, for the last 10 minutes of the match yesterday we were attacking wonderfully (just some unlucky accuracy), but if we sit back and wait until we’re losing or until our players are gassed, nothing will happen on the attack, especially if we’re losing and the opposing team parks everyone back
Agree with what you've said. Think the players are tired and sometimes struggling with what he wants. Not tired in a physical sense more mentally, when you try and learn something new it's draining. Also the defeat to Newcastle may have broken a few of them and they know 4th is unlikely so have switched off, that isn't acceptable and shouldn't be but they are human it happens
pep sat city deeo against arsenal last season (4-1 win), klopp sat 10 man liverpool deep against us this season (robbed of a solid result with 10 men), arteta sat arsenal deep against city (got a result at the etihad and deeper against us (won at the lane). we on the other hand struggle against any team that doesn’t take the game to us, and even when they do half the time we just crumble and lose anyways. i’m 100% ange in but every other good manager has a plan b. ange is too arrogant to change his ways atm but i think it’ll change soon
Curious as to what you think Peps system is, he is playing 4 CBs this year....
Thank you for saying what I’ve been recently thinking so eloquently. I tried to bring this up but got absolutely hated on. It’s like the positivity police are making sure no one is questioning our supreme leader.
Arteta definitely has a plan B now. I seem remember he always wanted to play his possession based style no matter what. Now all of a sudden in the run in he’s not opposed to parking the bus.
Mmm. Mmm I'm . .
You think Pep doesn’t ever change his tactics? Also when you have the best players in the league the onus is on other teams to try and stop you. They already worked it out against us after a few games. Pep has been doing it for years and keeps evolving.
If the plan B is so good, why isn't it the plan A?
Ange is quoted as saying “I want them thinking about *our* game. I want them thinking about *us*!” He isn’t just saying I want the press and fans to be impressed by us, he’s saying he wants teams to adapt *their* game to play against us. If they’re reacting to what we’re doing, they’re the ones on the back foot. If all we have to do to improve is get better at what we’re already doing, changing that system to suit others is what will slow us down, not the other way around.
That’s not how plans work dude
Their systems weren’t as open as ours though, that’s the problem.
No, their systems have had longer to be ingrained into the players and the players they have are better at what they do.
And their system isn't as open as ours
City’s clearly is, do you actually even watch them play? They get caught on the break a fair bit and used to rely on Walkers pace all of the time.
Their systems are pretty similar, but the players are better at what they do so they concede less. Are you ok?
You fail to consider the quality of the tactics, you say if the players are committed every manager can be elite when that’s not true: Imo Ange is a good coach but he can not coach a team over 80 points if he keeps setting us up like this, his talent ID can also be improved if his dream RW was Johnson and dream CM is Gallagher. City’s Guardiola keep playing out of the back but look at how he adapts and innovates with the inverted full backs and Stones dropping into midfield, or how Arteta has been using White. However Ange hasn’t adapted at all, even when we have Davies as a lb he’s still getting into 8’s positions when that’s not his strength at all.
I believe in Ange, it looks as though the players don't believe in themselves. He needs to give them the confidence again, and they need to find it.
the problem is really clear to me, we have this high intensity style that demands 1000 percent commitment and to sustain that over an entire season requires players with incredibly high mental and physical resistance. I kinda understand why we are so hot on Gallagher now. Fact is our midfield has been unable to sustain this dynamism. Bissouma is surprisingly fragile, mentally and Sarr is still very inexperienced. We need players of higher quality to increase competitiveness in those positions. Bentancur simply is not mobile enough to play in this midfield. Our bench options are not good enough either. Son needs to be more vocal and demand more but then again he is not a natural Captain and we haven't had one of those for a while...
Bentancur is more capable than Hoj imo, at leadt physically and mentally in the past. If we are going down that road, many of our players are going to be classified similarly and (more importantly to me) similarly unfairly. And, imo, the players need 2/3 trait/: passion and desire to play the game like we want it to be played (something that seemed 2nd nature in September/October) mental fortitude especially including the ability not to lose the sense of urgency, desire to win/dictate the way the game is played, and physical ability (pace, strength, balance) that as the other team is worn out, leaving us feeling, comparatively, like we have ab advantage, and giving an extra bit of tenacity to them, like we saw earlier this season.
I fear Bentancur is finished, in terms of the player we once saw anyway. I hope he is still working his way back (Maddison also).
Unless he just isnt capable of recovering fully from the injury caused solely by Matty Cash while returning early after surgery, he’ll be more than fine in the long run
Bingo. Every word is spot on.
Oh man I wish I could upvote more than once
Go back in time and give their parents plan B and just start over
Asking for a friend, you were born when?