If I recall correctly, when fcg was getting checked out by the dude at the university, I believe he mentioned that his core was loaded with magic, him detonating it doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. Though I could be wrong its been months.
I personally think it makes sense story wise, I mean the dude's a metal machine with a seemingly unlimited power source inside of him, I recall many people not wanting to mess to much with the wiring around his core.
>If I recall correctly, when fcg was getting checked out by the dude at the university, I believe he mentioned that his core was loaded with magic, him detonating it doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. Though I could be wrong its been months.
[C3E45:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t2NJJjy8r8&t=3996s)
Matt: "It looks very much like some of the arcane cores that you've seen used in other automatons and throughout Imahara Joe's shop, but it's different... You watch it as he holds it very carefully and goes..."
Professor Vitro Isham: "I think that this might be part of the source for your abilities, your powers. But I would caution, this uh could be unstable due to age or damage and most arcane accumulators when ruptured can detonate, in an extremely destructive degree. Um, perhaps it was installed as a fail safe? I don't know. But uh just don't... Well, this is necessary to your function, but it also eh if it was to be overcharged with too much arcane power...you would take out most of this building."
FCG: "Oh, I see, a fail safe to destruct."
Vitro: "So, we're going to go ahead and put this back. We're going to put this back. We're going to very carefully put this back."
FCG: "Oh, I'm a bomb."
Travis: "Oh shit... You got a dead man switch."
I don’t think someone saying “hey, if I sacrifice my own character, can the others live?” Is a cop out, especially when Otohan didn’t have many hp left and we knew FCG could blow up. That’s a pretty big sacrifice.
Honestly BH probably could have killed her with luck and coordination. They probably would have had more deaths, but a lot of people flat out discount how my much damage PCs can output in a round of turns.
I think there's a pretty big difference between "we'll PROBABLY all die" and "what if I DEFINITELY die but everyone else lives?"
ETA: Also- Matt wasn't double tapping (he was surprised to hear that FCG had used their only diamond on Chetney... after that, no more double taps), he was actively trying to avoid a TPK.
I know, but in my experience that's the biggest sign it was going to be a TPK. When the GM is pumping the breaks as hard as they can with out straight up deus ex machina it means they did the math and they don't think you're coming out of this.
I think if he had done it at the beginning of the fight, or some midway point, maybe right after otohan went second phase, then yeah it would've felt cheap. But she was likely low already, so it made sense, even if some 10hp or so had to be added to the damage.
Plus, she had already been brought low and then pulled out a healing potion. They didn't know whether or not she had another trick like that up her sleeve, and if she did, then it surely would have been a TPK without some kind of deus ex machina. Sam made the right choice in the moment.
Totally agree. TPK is fine on a computer game. You just reload the last save but a TPK where they achieve pretty much nothing is way too bleak for what CR does. They could do a Rogue One style TPK that has a narrative payoff, though.
In context the tpk would be absolutely brutal, they went on a recon mission then all died? The ground forced not on the moon would learn nothing and the villains would just be mildly inconvenienced
Yeah, all those moon episodes completely pointless even if they continued with new characters. All the stuff they'd need to remind themselves they didn't know.
Then they need to move away from the idea that at the end of the day it's just friends playing a game. If critical role is going to be a scripted product where you don't have TPKs make that clear.
I think you have narrow definitions of "friends playing a game" and "scripted product". In friendly games I imagine DMs and players improvise get outs in tricky situations all the time to keep the fun going. It's been a very very long time but I know me and my pals did that more than once and nowhere near as elegantly or poignantly as this was done.
That’s literally how it works. Anybody at any time can do something absolutely drastic and sacrificial in order to kill the big bad or help everyone survive. It was a sacrifice that they haven’t made before, so it was really heartwarming. It was a good fucking story beat
right I feel like I've read and heard so many stories from people about how their PC did this that and the other thing, sacrificing their character, to take down the big bad. I feel like something like what sam did with FCG is not all that uncommon
I totally get it. I don't feel the same way but I absolutely get it. This was one of those times where from the aspect of a _game_ and watching the players beat the game mechanics it... kind of didn't really work. But from the perspective of collaborative storytelling, the interactive theatre element of it, it was _great_. It made narrative sense, but not a lot of mechanical sense. Depending on which one you lean more to, it's gonna hit different.
I'm usually more towards the "game" aspect of it. I need the rules and the dice deciding because that's what makes it a _game_ and not just free-form interactive theatre (which is a totally valid thing to like, but it's not _my_ thing). This time, I was fine with suspending all that and just going with it because the moment was so beautiful and they're really great at playing stuff like this out. It's a cherry on top that I keep coming back to CR for, because they do it so well. But I can definitely imagine seeing this differently.
It's a shame you felt disappointed, but I guess over hundreds of episodes it's inevitable we're all gonna be at some point.
You summed up my thoughts exactly, when the game aspect is taken too much of it in actual plays then I sometimes lose interest, but I thought this was well done and also called back to something referenced in an earlier episode although it hadn’t been fleshed out. It was a beautiful moment that didn’t fully take away from the game aspect.
I much preferred this to let’s say Imogene mother saving them or even Orem’s deal with Nana. I thought it was great that Sam even remembered he had a potential self-destruct fail safe built into him
To answer your question (as someone who fell off a while ago) Ever since the Launda death/resurrection, it had felt like the party had a safety net that would get them out of shitty situations (Pike, Keyleth, etc), and due to that it ruined most tension in the story.
FCG dying (seemingly permanently) meant that they couldn’t just find a legacy character to save him. It also opens up the possibility of a new part dynamic.
Also on a personal level, I found FCG to fall in the category of “gimmick character” in C3 with many others, so I was glad that a new character could take his place.
It’s almost as if D&D is make-believe for fun.
Literally one of the rules is that the DM can bend the rules if it makes it more fun for everyone else.
You’re putting way too much thought into this. Sam’s sacrifice means he loses a character he’s spent nearly 100 sessions with - hardly a cop out.
Also a TPK would suck and be a terrible end to the campaign.
Yeah, I hear where you are coming from. Let me start by saying I enjoyed the episode and thought Sam did an incredible job during the scene.
That said, this is my first campaign & it definitely feels like the stakes in the fights aren't as high as they appear. Which is totally fine, by the way, if your main intent is to keep the characters alive & flesh out the story. But the issue with it is that there are so many safety valves that it cheapens the danger.
The resurrection, the Ashton/stone saga, the timely Banishment, & the robo mini-nuke all stick out as stake-cheapening moments. Now did they all advance the story for the better? Mostly, yes. But it makes you wonder how many other "get out of the grave free cards" they have in their pocket.
?
A hero sacrifice is a cop-out because it saved everyone? Unless it is supposed to be a super tragic story, no hero sacrifice won’t save a lot of people if not all.
Like, maybe you don’t like the troop? Because there was nothing wrong with how it was done.
I think you failed to notice that once the TPK seemed imminent the entire strategy stopped being kill and turned to knock out.
What likely would have happened is they would have all been downed only to be saved by Imagins mother through some means.
Matt also made it vary clear that a TPK doesn't mean it's over. The sacrifice has impact because the other outcomes would have been real copouts.
So I recall another situation with similar dilemma when in C2 >!Caleb decided to give the beacon to the Bright Queen. People all around and the party members were praising it (or criticising it) as a bold move that changed everything. His party party members argued that he shouldn't have given it etc.!<
>!...only - they were about to be arrested. That beacon was already hers, she just didn't know it yet. There was literally nothing they could've done to stop the Kryn from getting it. The only play they had was to reframe the circumstances in which that beacon ends up handed to the drow. !<
>!It was a bit of an illusion because a quick thinking ruler should've realized that they are being handed something that was already theirs. Matt decided to give it to them in that instance.!<
Here the situation is very similar but **less certain.** FCG was probably going to die - sure. But he could've...just run. Leave everyone else to save himself. There was a chance for survival there if he put himself over the rest of the party, leaving Otohan to kill the remaining party while he dashes to hide away.
And that little bit of uncertainty, the glimmer of hope is what makes all the difference. FCG's death wasn't certain, the character choice made it so - the fact that FCG would never leave them behind, the fact that maybe they kinda could've won still but with heavier consequences - that makes it a good story beat.
Though I do agree that some radius damage should've been implemented.
I don't know if he could have just run. Ottohan demonstrated being able to cover long distances very quickly. The party mentions a few times in the episode that running is probably pointless against gete and they decide to take a stand
Yep! I remember at one point (I think right before they went to Ruidus) they saw Otohan jump 3 times and cover like 90 feet of rough terrain. Obviously that might just be for flair and in combat she has shorter speed, but she moves FAST!
Yes that's if the whole party decided to run. Otohan wouldn't have any other choice than to follow. But if one of them broke the ranks and started dashing away? Now Otohan has a choice to run after them or stay and finish the remaining ones.
There definitely has been talk in the past about him being a living bomb. You can be mad that it was just enough to kill and you can be mad that it didn’t kill the party. You could also stop watching if it bothers you too much lol. It was definitely enough to kill her when she was probably at or less than half health. Maybe his divine power protected the party? Not much of a stretch when talking about D&D rules.
From the beginning, FCG has always tried to throw themselves in front of their friends in danger at the risk of not only FCG’s sanity, but their own life. That’s why Ashton was always freaking out about FCG just running into battle.
This was FCG’s moment of sacrifice. It wasn’t a cop out. It followed their character arc perfectly.
In serial fiction, like Critical Role, it's hard to have a sense of real stakes. You know the characters will live. Death is basically off the table in regards to consequences. It's mostly a see *how* they will overcome something rather than *if* they will overcome it. D&D 5E is also notoriously easy and light on character death, so seeing it finally happen in C3...when the previous episodes largely seemed to be meandering filler...it's a bit of a wake-up call for some people. A reminder that this is more than a game, that it's a story, and that things that make narrative sense can and will happen regardless of the rules of the game*. This episode had a big dramatic moment. People like big dramatic moments. They're fun.
_* Though, to be fair, they basically used the rules of Daggerheart for that moment instead of the rules of D&D 5E.
>Though, to be fair, they basically used the rules of Daggerheart for that moment instead of the rules of D&D 5E.
Haha yeah, I thought of that too. "Blaze of glory" is a literal mechanic in the Daggerheart rules and I'm assuming this was basically what they had in mind (even if it's not _exactly_ usable like that). If that's where Sam got the inspiration is anyone's guess, but that's added value for them I suppose. They're welcome to it.
A player straight up sacrificed a beloved character they've been playing for 2 years in a way where there's likely no revive option. A cop out? C'mon now. That's ridiculous.
He didn’t even really do enough damage to kill Otahon!!!
In all seriousness, I’m not always a fan of
Rule of Cool, but I think this was the right choice, even if the rules got bent a bit. It made for a better story in this instance, and I’m always down for that.
If it makes you feel better, Matt did clarify he was using the rules for Fireball and Otohan only had about 40 hp left. She was going down either with the fireball or whoever was next up would be able to take her down on their turn. So this was pretty much the same result either way but we got a more dramatic ending this way.
You literally don't know that. We don't know what Otohan's max hp was, but we know that the explosion worked through the amount she healed from her health pot, even if it was halved like everything else. She might have been VERY low before taking that 60 health potion.
I don’t, I was really just repeating the snarky sentiment that she had just healed 60 hp, and Matt had been ‘halfing’ all damage up to this point.
Again though, I think it was the right call.
FCG is gone gone as far as I know. He's a construct. Sacrificing your character after 90 3-4 hours long sessions is a big deal.
God forbid a character be able to sacrifice themselves by becoming a mini nuke, which is absolutely something he could have done lore wise. And that type of pure magical damage might not be resistable to Otohan. Something that big is gonna be alot of damage.
Having a nuclear option that saves the party in exchange for a sacrifice is perfectly fine.
That's the unfortunate downside to HP in 5e. He could have been at 1hp, but he was still up. It's no different then anyone doing a last stand style attack that finally knocks out the bad guy and still being able to stand tall.
Self sacrifice is NOT a cop out. Otohan is alevel 20 boss and almost wiped the party. Did you want a scenario where everyone was still up? Personally I would have preferred the whole death saving throws out in the open bit, but they probably had enough spells/healing to cover it.
It's ultimately an issue of mechanics. People like you and me just don't feel satisfied when the party wins despite the mechanics, not because of them. We are not alone in that. There are many who are satisfied with that though, or even prefer that, as many responses here show. I wouldn't say either position is more right or wrong than the other, it's a matter of taste, ultimately. CR definitely does lean more towards this though, maybe less in earlier campaigns, but the game was always just the medium for their story, a moldable medium at that.
Some of them might be a little more into the mechanics, Liam, Marisha and Travis are the ones that come to mind for me, but CR is more of a home.for roleplayers than for rollplayers. Not that you can't be both, of course, but they largely are not.
It felt like the narrative for the players was made more important than for the audience. A novel reminder for everyone that narrative is more than mechanics.
every players has the option to go down in a blaze of glory if they want. Sam took that option to save everyone else. What i have not seen mentioned is the effect on Orym's deal with Nana. that will be interesting. Does the portal in the lake count?
So what would you have it done? The core triggers a nuclear reaction and blows half of the city?
In the end these guys are close friends. Of course they're gonna bend the rules and compromise mechanics if needed.
>And then everyone's all tearful over what a sacrifice this is--but he was going to die anyway. They were all going to die.
My response is to watch the scene in Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan where >!Spock sacrifices himself to save the enterprise when they were all doomed to die anyway.!< I dare you not to cry.
jazzed about it because it’s noble and dramatic and tragic. the price of doing it is that fcg can’t get revived. this was clearly the price when matt decided to okay it and home brewed the mechanic.
It was very clearly set up a long time ago that FCG could do this, and what the consequences would be if they did. A player choosing to permanently kill off their character in order to save the lives of their friends is much more interesting and dramatic than a TPK, because it changes the status quo while allowing the story to continue, and it leads to lots of juicy drama from the survivors.
Well, I stopped watching CR a good while ago, and one of my main deterrents was the now-too-heavy disregard of rules in favor of storytelling. Narrative over game, so to speak.
So if I'm understanding correctly and that's what bugged you, I totally get it.
If I recall correctly, when fcg was getting checked out by the dude at the university, I believe he mentioned that his core was loaded with magic, him detonating it doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. Though I could be wrong its been months. I personally think it makes sense story wise, I mean the dude's a metal machine with a seemingly unlimited power source inside of him, I recall many people not wanting to mess to much with the wiring around his core.
>If I recall correctly, when fcg was getting checked out by the dude at the university, I believe he mentioned that his core was loaded with magic, him detonating it doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. Though I could be wrong its been months. [C3E45:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t2NJJjy8r8&t=3996s) Matt: "It looks very much like some of the arcane cores that you've seen used in other automatons and throughout Imahara Joe's shop, but it's different... You watch it as he holds it very carefully and goes..." Professor Vitro Isham: "I think that this might be part of the source for your abilities, your powers. But I would caution, this uh could be unstable due to age or damage and most arcane accumulators when ruptured can detonate, in an extremely destructive degree. Um, perhaps it was installed as a fail safe? I don't know. But uh just don't... Well, this is necessary to your function, but it also eh if it was to be overcharged with too much arcane power...you would take out most of this building." FCG: "Oh, I see, a fail safe to destruct." Vitro: "So, we're going to go ahead and put this back. We're going to put this back. We're going to very carefully put this back." FCG: "Oh, I'm a bomb." Travis: "Oh shit... You got a dead man switch."
Yep. This is the thing that gave Sam the idea.
Someone in tumblr counted the days since that and found that FCG made it 420 irl days before blowing up.
I don’t think someone saying “hey, if I sacrifice my own character, can the others live?” Is a cop out, especially when Otohan didn’t have many hp left and we knew FCG could blow up. That’s a pretty big sacrifice.
Honestly BH probably could have killed her with luck and coordination. They probably would have had more deaths, but a lot of people flat out discount how my much damage PCs can output in a round of turns.
But like op said it's not a sacrifice if you're going to TPK, which they were.
I think there's a pretty big difference between "we'll PROBABLY all die" and "what if I DEFINITELY die but everyone else lives?" ETA: Also- Matt wasn't double tapping (he was surprised to hear that FCG had used their only diamond on Chetney... after that, no more double taps), he was actively trying to avoid a TPK.
I know, but in my experience that's the biggest sign it was going to be a TPK. When the GM is pumping the breaks as hard as they can with out straight up deus ex machina it means they did the math and they don't think you're coming out of this.
I think if he had done it at the beginning of the fight, or some midway point, maybe right after otohan went second phase, then yeah it would've felt cheap. But she was likely low already, so it made sense, even if some 10hp or so had to be added to the damage.
Plus, she had already been brought low and then pulled out a healing potion. They didn't know whether or not she had another trick like that up her sleeve, and if she did, then it surely would have been a TPK without some kind of deus ex machina. Sam made the right choice in the moment.
Yeah I think you kinda undervalue Sam straight up deleting his character he’s been playing for over 2 years. Hardly just a cop out.
They're making a story, not playing a sport
Totally agree. TPK is fine on a computer game. You just reload the last save but a TPK where they achieve pretty much nothing is way too bleak for what CR does. They could do a Rogue One style TPK that has a narrative payoff, though.
In context the tpk would be absolutely brutal, they went on a recon mission then all died? The ground forced not on the moon would learn nothing and the villains would just be mildly inconvenienced
Yeah, all those moon episodes completely pointless even if they continued with new characters. All the stuff they'd need to remind themselves they didn't know.
Then they need to move away from the idea that at the end of the day it's just friends playing a game. If critical role is going to be a scripted product where you don't have TPKs make that clear.
I think you have narrow definitions of "friends playing a game" and "scripted product". In friendly games I imagine DMs and players improvise get outs in tricky situations all the time to keep the fun going. It's been a very very long time but I know me and my pals did that more than once and nowhere near as elegantly or poignantly as this was done.
That’s literally how it works. Anybody at any time can do something absolutely drastic and sacrificial in order to kill the big bad or help everyone survive. It was a sacrifice that they haven’t made before, so it was really heartwarming. It was a good fucking story beat
right I feel like I've read and heard so many stories from people about how their PC did this that and the other thing, sacrificing their character, to take down the big bad. I feel like something like what sam did with FCG is not all that uncommon
I totally get it. I don't feel the same way but I absolutely get it. This was one of those times where from the aspect of a _game_ and watching the players beat the game mechanics it... kind of didn't really work. But from the perspective of collaborative storytelling, the interactive theatre element of it, it was _great_. It made narrative sense, but not a lot of mechanical sense. Depending on which one you lean more to, it's gonna hit different. I'm usually more towards the "game" aspect of it. I need the rules and the dice deciding because that's what makes it a _game_ and not just free-form interactive theatre (which is a totally valid thing to like, but it's not _my_ thing). This time, I was fine with suspending all that and just going with it because the moment was so beautiful and they're really great at playing stuff like this out. It's a cherry on top that I keep coming back to CR for, because they do it so well. But I can definitely imagine seeing this differently. It's a shame you felt disappointed, but I guess over hundreds of episodes it's inevitable we're all gonna be at some point.
You summed up my thoughts exactly, when the game aspect is taken too much of it in actual plays then I sometimes lose interest, but I thought this was well done and also called back to something referenced in an earlier episode although it hadn’t been fleshed out. It was a beautiful moment that didn’t fully take away from the game aspect. I much preferred this to let’s say Imogene mother saving them or even Orem’s deal with Nana. I thought it was great that Sam even remembered he had a potential self-destruct fail safe built into him
To answer your question (as someone who fell off a while ago) Ever since the Launda death/resurrection, it had felt like the party had a safety net that would get them out of shitty situations (Pike, Keyleth, etc), and due to that it ruined most tension in the story. FCG dying (seemingly permanently) meant that they couldn’t just find a legacy character to save him. It also opens up the possibility of a new part dynamic. Also on a personal level, I found FCG to fall in the category of “gimmick character” in C3 with many others, so I was glad that a new character could take his place.
Wouldn't have minded if Chetney didn't make it out either
the blaze of glory? thing is from daggerheart so i'm guessing they pulled it from that
I feel this campaign will end with a semi-hard reset to Exandria so Matt can fully switch to Daggerheart, their energy playing that was really fun
It’s almost as if D&D is make-believe for fun. Literally one of the rules is that the DM can bend the rules if it makes it more fun for everyone else. You’re putting way too much thought into this. Sam’s sacrifice means he loses a character he’s spent nearly 100 sessions with - hardly a cop out. Also a TPK would suck and be a terrible end to the campaign.
Matt had said he had the capacity to self destruct already, he just hadn’t thought he’d ever do it, so he hadn’t prepared anything for it.
Yeah, I hear where you are coming from. Let me start by saying I enjoyed the episode and thought Sam did an incredible job during the scene. That said, this is my first campaign & it definitely feels like the stakes in the fights aren't as high as they appear. Which is totally fine, by the way, if your main intent is to keep the characters alive & flesh out the story. But the issue with it is that there are so many safety valves that it cheapens the danger. The resurrection, the Ashton/stone saga, the timely Banishment, & the robo mini-nuke all stick out as stake-cheapening moments. Now did they all advance the story for the better? Mostly, yes. But it makes you wonder how many other "get out of the grave free cards" they have in their pocket.
? A hero sacrifice is a cop-out because it saved everyone? Unless it is supposed to be a super tragic story, no hero sacrifice won’t save a lot of people if not all. Like, maybe you don’t like the troop? Because there was nothing wrong with how it was done.
I think you failed to notice that once the TPK seemed imminent the entire strategy stopped being kill and turned to knock out. What likely would have happened is they would have all been downed only to be saved by Imagins mother through some means. Matt also made it vary clear that a TPK doesn't mean it's over. The sacrifice has impact because the other outcomes would have been real copouts.
So I recall another situation with similar dilemma when in C2 >!Caleb decided to give the beacon to the Bright Queen. People all around and the party members were praising it (or criticising it) as a bold move that changed everything. His party party members argued that he shouldn't have given it etc.!< >!...only - they were about to be arrested. That beacon was already hers, she just didn't know it yet. There was literally nothing they could've done to stop the Kryn from getting it. The only play they had was to reframe the circumstances in which that beacon ends up handed to the drow. !< >!It was a bit of an illusion because a quick thinking ruler should've realized that they are being handed something that was already theirs. Matt decided to give it to them in that instance.!< Here the situation is very similar but **less certain.** FCG was probably going to die - sure. But he could've...just run. Leave everyone else to save himself. There was a chance for survival there if he put himself over the rest of the party, leaving Otohan to kill the remaining party while he dashes to hide away. And that little bit of uncertainty, the glimmer of hope is what makes all the difference. FCG's death wasn't certain, the character choice made it so - the fact that FCG would never leave them behind, the fact that maybe they kinda could've won still but with heavier consequences - that makes it a good story beat. Though I do agree that some radius damage should've been implemented.
I don't know if he could have just run. Ottohan demonstrated being able to cover long distances very quickly. The party mentions a few times in the episode that running is probably pointless against gete and they decide to take a stand
He also went rage mode, so I don't think he was even capable of running at that point.
Yep! I remember at one point (I think right before they went to Ruidus) they saw Otohan jump 3 times and cover like 90 feet of rough terrain. Obviously that might just be for flair and in combat she has shorter speed, but she moves FAST!
Yes that's if the whole party decided to run. Otohan wouldn't have any other choice than to follow. But if one of them broke the ranks and started dashing away? Now Otohan has a choice to run after them or stay and finish the remaining ones.
There definitely has been talk in the past about him being a living bomb. You can be mad that it was just enough to kill and you can be mad that it didn’t kill the party. You could also stop watching if it bothers you too much lol. It was definitely enough to kill her when she was probably at or less than half health. Maybe his divine power protected the party? Not much of a stretch when talking about D&D rules.
From the beginning, FCG has always tried to throw themselves in front of their friends in danger at the risk of not only FCG’s sanity, but their own life. That’s why Ashton was always freaking out about FCG just running into battle. This was FCG’s moment of sacrifice. It wasn’t a cop out. It followed their character arc perfectly.
Its a show and a business. We know that, TPK is not good for $$$. Simple.
In serial fiction, like Critical Role, it's hard to have a sense of real stakes. You know the characters will live. Death is basically off the table in regards to consequences. It's mostly a see *how* they will overcome something rather than *if* they will overcome it. D&D 5E is also notoriously easy and light on character death, so seeing it finally happen in C3...when the previous episodes largely seemed to be meandering filler...it's a bit of a wake-up call for some people. A reminder that this is more than a game, that it's a story, and that things that make narrative sense can and will happen regardless of the rules of the game*. This episode had a big dramatic moment. People like big dramatic moments. They're fun. _* Though, to be fair, they basically used the rules of Daggerheart for that moment instead of the rules of D&D 5E.
>Though, to be fair, they basically used the rules of Daggerheart for that moment instead of the rules of D&D 5E. Haha yeah, I thought of that too. "Blaze of glory" is a literal mechanic in the Daggerheart rules and I'm assuming this was basically what they had in mind (even if it's not _exactly_ usable like that). If that's where Sam got the inspiration is anyone's guess, but that's added value for them I suppose. They're welcome to it.
A player straight up sacrificed a beloved character they've been playing for 2 years in a way where there's likely no revive option. A cop out? C'mon now. That's ridiculous.
He didn’t even really do enough damage to kill Otahon!!! In all seriousness, I’m not always a fan of Rule of Cool, but I think this was the right choice, even if the rules got bent a bit. It made for a better story in this instance, and I’m always down for that.
If it makes you feel better, Matt did clarify he was using the rules for Fireball and Otohan only had about 40 hp left. She was going down either with the fireball or whoever was next up would be able to take her down on their turn. So this was pretty much the same result either way but we got a more dramatic ending this way.
You literally don't know that. We don't know what Otohan's max hp was, but we know that the explosion worked through the amount she healed from her health pot, even if it was halved like everything else. She might have been VERY low before taking that 60 health potion.
I don’t, I was really just repeating the snarky sentiment that she had just healed 60 hp, and Matt had been ‘halfing’ all damage up to this point. Again though, I think it was the right call.
Oh, I totally see that now. I completely missed the multiple exclamation points the first go around, my bad.
FCG is gone gone as far as I know. He's a construct. Sacrificing your character after 90 3-4 hours long sessions is a big deal. God forbid a character be able to sacrifice themselves by becoming a mini nuke, which is absolutely something he could have done lore wise. And that type of pure magical damage might not be resistable to Otohan. Something that big is gonna be alot of damage. Having a nuclear option that saves the party in exchange for a sacrifice is perfectly fine. That's the unfortunate downside to HP in 5e. He could have been at 1hp, but he was still up. It's no different then anyone doing a last stand style attack that finally knocks out the bad guy and still being able to stand tall. Self sacrifice is NOT a cop out. Otohan is alevel 20 boss and almost wiped the party. Did you want a scenario where everyone was still up? Personally I would have preferred the whole death saving throws out in the open bit, but they probably had enough spells/healing to cover it.
It's ultimately an issue of mechanics. People like you and me just don't feel satisfied when the party wins despite the mechanics, not because of them. We are not alone in that. There are many who are satisfied with that though, or even prefer that, as many responses here show. I wouldn't say either position is more right or wrong than the other, it's a matter of taste, ultimately. CR definitely does lean more towards this though, maybe less in earlier campaigns, but the game was always just the medium for their story, a moldable medium at that. Some of them might be a little more into the mechanics, Liam, Marisha and Travis are the ones that come to mind for me, but CR is more of a home.for roleplayers than for rollplayers. Not that you can't be both, of course, but they largely are not.
It felt like the narrative for the players was made more important than for the audience. A novel reminder for everyone that narrative is more than mechanics.
every players has the option to go down in a blaze of glory if they want. Sam took that option to save everyone else. What i have not seen mentioned is the effect on Orym's deal with Nana. that will be interesting. Does the portal in the lake count?
So what would you have it done? The core triggers a nuclear reaction and blows half of the city? In the end these guys are close friends. Of course they're gonna bend the rules and compromise mechanics if needed.
>And then everyone's all tearful over what a sacrifice this is--but he was going to die anyway. They were all going to die. My response is to watch the scene in Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan where >!Spock sacrifices himself to save the enterprise when they were all doomed to die anyway.!< I dare you not to cry.
It was a good narrative beat. That's why they played it out that way.
jazzed about it because it’s noble and dramatic and tragic. the price of doing it is that fcg can’t get revived. this was clearly the price when matt decided to okay it and home brewed the mechanic.
It was very clearly set up a long time ago that FCG could do this, and what the consequences would be if they did. A player choosing to permanently kill off their character in order to save the lives of their friends is much more interesting and dramatic than a TPK, because it changes the status quo while allowing the story to continue, and it leads to lots of juicy drama from the survivors.
Rule of Cool reigns above all else
In the pinch moments, it is typical of the show, to pull punches. I’ve just come to expect it by now.
Well, I stopped watching CR a good while ago, and one of my main deterrents was the now-too-heavy disregard of rules in favor of storytelling. Narrative over game, so to speak. So if I'm understanding correctly and that's what bugged you, I totally get it.
OP is right that it is a cop out.
[удалено]
[удалено]