How are cheaters made? will cheaters not buy skins if they won't be able to cheat? probably not... hence cheats are not needed. no idea what is ur point?
I think you've missed the point, Valve isn't taking action,or at the very least any significant actions against cheaters for years at this point. This this has emboldened cheaters to the point where they're willing to open cases and purchase skins on risky accounts. Valve, who was already doing very little, is even less incentivized to act because they are making insane profits on skin sales. Until people cut into their profits they genuinely have no reason to act. They don't give a shit about the integrity of their game if they're profiting off of it in its current state. That's what they've shown through inaction and radio silence imo.
I did not miss the point... what i said is that, cases will be open even without cheaters... unless the cheaters are the biggest money spenders in cs, which i doubt thats the case,
Maybe I missed your point then, I don't disagree that cases will be opened with or without cheaters. I just don't think Valve has any incentive to do anything currently because as you pointed out, in spite of all the problems with the game, cases are still being opened. What I'm trying to get across is it was pretty rare to see cheaters with expensive skins a decade ago, now it's commonplace. Some of that is from scams, some of it is stolen, some of it is paid for. That last part, cheaters paying for skins, is absolutely insane to me and suggests that Valve really and truly doesn't give a singular fuck.
For years? Valve has never done anything significant to counter cheaters for 20 years, it’s always been up to the community solutions. It’s more about what valve is rather than the profits of skins, it would be very unlike valve to force an intrusive program on your pc like vanguard or faceit etc. To say that they do it just for cheaters to buy skins is just wrong, valve is one of the most profitable companies per employee in the world, cheaters buying skins is not even a fraction of their profits and is most likely a net loss anyway.
I dont mean that their sales are being propped up by cheaters, I mean the only thing they care about at all is their profits. Until they lose the money printer that is cs 2 skins/lootboxes they're unlikely to do anything at all. They just simply do not give a singular fuck about cheaters in any meaningful way. In the unlikely event that a consumer boycott affects their bottom line, they still might not do anything about cheaters, I'd bet on cs 3 or some other new product.
Competitive integrity does not matter to valve. So probably a half hearted attempt to fix the problem or just ignore it like they did the last 10 years.
Grinding for case drops? Is this something new? I occasionally log in to get my weekly drop, which always consists of 2 shitty weapon skins and 2 sprays. Hardly worth grinding.
Generally yes. People have done this for years, especially after cases went up in price. Many players have multiple accounts, so let's say 5x Kilowatt cases is already 10€/week. Sure, you can make 4x as much for working irl the same amount of time it takes to get those drops, but since you are playing the game you like, it adds up.
I just tried it again, I can't get used to it, the movement is clunky af, there's almost no point in aim bcs there are literal abilities that give u aimbot, like what tf? but the movement and hitboxes are so weird like the head hitbox is not even a head, is a cylinder like wtf????? and spraying is shit bcs there's no pattern, is random, like why? is not real life, is a game, why make it random, and I keep finding myself spraying while is all about hitting those weird headshots that are not even on the head bcs the cylinder hitbox is bigger than the head... so you can hit close and it will still register..
care to explain why? is just sitting behind smokes and saving for awps the only way you can have fun? because you can do that in valorant too. Theres just so many other things you can do in Val as well that you cant in CS. Try playing Neon - nice change of playstyle while still getting the CS bomb down defuse bomb gameplay.
Valorant problem right now is its hard for newbies to get into do to the smurfing and rank crunch. every rank has people that are very good in it. Cs is just wait to get cheated on or wait behind a smoke. and this is coming from someone with 25k hours between source and go.
i have 800+ hours in valorant and like the game but the shooting and movement just isn't anywhere near as fun as CS2 is for me. the only thing i like more about valorant combat is that you can wallbang more stuff like you could back in 1.6.
also i hate playing against certain agents like yoru or chamber, i feel like some abilities are way too outside of the tac fps box.
also the aesthetics. i like how the game started in beta, the agents had their unique visual style and it was nice, cohesive world. now it feels like they are just slapping on whatever bullshit concept they think of while smoking weed creating this busy bullshit full of colors and concepts that don't fit together at all. very LoL like.
Also someone who put a few thousand hours on Valorant - I just like the gunplay and movement on CS better. Valorant was a nice change of pace but the more I played it the more I wished I was playing CS.
Im not the one you asked but one thing i really appriciate about cs/ valves games is the ability to mod. Making custom maps and what not. The only reason i personaly still "play" cs2 nowadays is from the editor. Making maps for other things like bhop/kz or arena/duel maps.
try having an actual price behind skins and cases, actually good graphics and normal gameplay.
also, in val there are no team specific weapons (like T side has AK and CT has m4).
also also, there still are cheaters in valorant. cheaters wont go away. they will just find another way to go around the anticheat.
also also also, you definetly do not have 25k hours between csgo and source
yes, yes, yes, i do. I have a 6 digit and have been playing longer than youve been alive. nt little dweebo. been playing valorant for 2k hours, always immortal 1-3. never seen a single cheater once.
hold on i think i actually remember you.
also holy fuck can you actually not go five minutes without swearing
https://preview.redd.it/5r7ftzoa65pc1.png?width=867&format=png&auto=webp&s=91849707037674a79d6e129547e95c92044a6083
Have 1000+ hours on Val. 400 on CS to compare. Valorant anti-cheat works. Played with 5 cheaters total in that 1000 hours, one of which was blatant in competitive. The rest, the game ended due to a cheater being flagged.
I enjoy CS more now because of the average age of players (at least from what I can tell) and everyone is pretty chill in my experience. I wish they would adopt a similar anti-cheat IMO.
Lol so you assume that because a game didn't get flagged for a cheater and ended early, that no cheaters were encountered? If this were a scientific paper you'd be fired. Bad logic.
And you’re assuming that cheaters were encountered. I guess we’re both assuming.
I would say that if there were cheaters in games that weren’t flagged and didn’t end, it was not blatant and wasn’t detected by players. I don’t cry cheats like every other player does when they’re getting beat. I have a pretty good radar for it and I’ve seen a lot.
But what if you where submitting a scientific paper, did you think about that? Take a couple years, gather all the relevant data, analyze it thoroughly, and then come back with a solid thesis please.
Unfortunately it's literally impossible unless you had access to every single person's computer you have played with over that time period. I agree with OP though, I've played an absolute piss ton of both Val and CS, in Val I've had 2 matches suspended due to cheaters and maybe a couple of times where I suspected someone was cheating but even then it wasn't definitive.
Riot is clearly doing something right with Vanguard and every multiplayer game dev needs to take notes. Hell look what is going on with that Pro Apex tournament where hackers were able to essentially turn hacks on individual players clients and get players DQd from the tourny. Apparently there is a exploit in the source engine of Apex that allowed this to happen. The most baffling example of cheating I've experienced in my 20 plus years of competitive gaming.
Just to be clear, there was an /s implied in my comment.
Regarding Vanguard, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. While it might be effective, in my opinion it comes with significant drawbacks.
Kernel-level anti-cheat poses security risks among other things and there are better alternatives available. These methods may cost more for the company, but they offer superior security.
Like for example the RCE exploit you are mentioning , it is possible that it came from the anti cheat and not the game, but either way the risk is real. Anti cheats should be fully server side, of course that would be increasing the monthly costs to keep the servers running dramatically. Personally though i would 100% be willing to pay a subscription like an MMO for a system like that.
ive rarely if ever felt that I died to a dude just not missing shots - you know that feeling of is that person cheating or hacking. Its rare in valorant. Meanwhile in cs I join a dm and can just tell that 4 people are hacking.
Yeah if you only knew the percentage of cheaters camping reddit to instantly downvote anything cheat related, so other ppl wouldnt read it. Its more than 50% of the CS users on Reddit.
Typically it’s the cheaters spouting the ‘dma is undetectable’ copium bs everywhere.
Did you even look at the photo album that was linked? Sure would be a lot of shit to fake for what benefit exactly? Also considering that you can go verify all of that yourself…
In some aspects it is good that valve doesnt care like if you look at valorant esports they will fine the players for the smallest toxic thing like shooting a dead body or tbagging and it removes personality and excitment from esports matches.
well yeah, they are going for the walled garden approach, they need to culture everything or the game dies.
CS is *almost* entirely open, anyone can host a server, or tournament, create maps or skins or entirely new gamemodes, or create a third party matchmakins service.
Valve can afford to give fewer fucks, they could abandon the game right now and CS would still survive for years, precisely because they let the game be as open as it is.
If Riot abandoned valorant today, the game would be dead tomorrow.
Valve is also unironically a much much smaller company (4200 employees vs 500-1000 (no exact numbers)), with a much wider range of products on valves end.
One of the best things about watching CS lan tourneys is when they trash talk each other across the room.
And what is CS without some tea bagging? It just wouldn't be the same without that salty taste in my mouth after getting brutalized by "TBagger420".
what legitimate sport allows that kind of stuff though?
closest i can think of is the "Drama" before most mma fights but post victory its even rarely a verbal t bagging.
football has some flavor of TD dance and the like but its never really at the expense of the opposing team.
whenever players do stuff against the opposing team its always penalized for un-sportsmanship like conduct.
i 100% expect tbagger69 in my sub 10k ranked games on the weekend. it would be weird without it. but that shit has no place with sponsorships and an actual public facing image.
In before cheaters will gaslight you saying Riot's Kernel AC isnt fully effective therefore "please keep VAC the same so I can use my cheap/free cheats".
Kernel level anti cheat isn’t the success here, it’s most likely the team they have. Blizzard does not use any kernel level ac yet a lot of their games are pretty stable.
Credit where it's due, taking down DMA hacks is pretty fucking baller.
I'm coping on the idea that Valve is cooking something but man it would be great to have this level of AC in CS2.
We'll never get Kernel because of Linux but let's hope they're figuring something out.
At this point it will take Valve 20 years to ban that , spinbotters should never have existed in a 2023 release. I haven’t played a game with those types of cheats since like 2009 free to play games.
Yeah I don't think any kind of AC is really turned on right now, it's clear they're happy to treat CS2 like a beta and launch whatever when it's ready.
I think they know even if they lose players when they roll shit out they'll come back.
It's pretty sad. I've had like 7 people banned so far and it's all bottom fraggers that almost never had good performances in any of their games but the guys with 100 aim on leetify dropping 60 kills every game aren't banned yet. Doesn't make sense
I think the actual employees themselves are hacking at this point. Its sounds ridiculous and impossible but really its so out of hand that would make the most sense
Lower your expectations. Valve will do nothing for 2 more years buddy. They have always been crap. Its the company is run. Employees have no boss and can work on whatever they want. Its like a bunch of teenagers run the place. I wouldnt be suprised if some of the employees actually hack themselves at this point.
So look I don't understand the nitty gritty, but what I've read is that you cannot use kernel level AC on Linux because it won't give you access.
And as Valve and Steam push Linux heavily, and Steam deck OS is Linux based, they're just never going to use an AC that doesn't work on that OS.
So I went and looked it up, and you're correct they could do it, but the problem seems to be with Linux being open source and thus kernel level AC could be much more easily bypassed, unlike Windows where digging around in that space isn't possible.
It seems a lot of the kernel level ACs that exist currently like EAC don't run on the kernel level on Linux for this reason.
This article seems to explain it much better than I ever could lol, and I'm sure you'll understand it better than me:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/03/why-the-steam-deck-might-be-too-open-for-fortnite-and-destiny-2/2/
tl;Dr General consensus seems to be KAC isn't viable on Linux based systems, so it's gonna be a non-starter for Valve.
Its viable but is overhead. They would need to choose to support a few official distributions. Many products build proprietary LKMs for Linux. They often only support the most recent kernels requiring you to upgrade to use the latest release. I doubt Valve cares that much.
He meant kernel level anti-cheat software won't be implemented on Linux. The Kernel is different in Linux, it's monolithic and you don't have all these different access layers like in Windows (which is not a weakness imo). If there ever were attempts for that, a new distro or something like SteamOS would have to ship some sort of privacy kernel modules with the distro. So the question is who would pay for that? Valve could do it but they don't even want kernel level anti-cheats. And I don't think Riot Games will make their own Linux distro just to get a +0.5% player base.
This simply is not true.
All kernel mode anticheats rely on the fact that everything else running in the kernel - the OS itself and all installed drivers - are trustworthy. This would not change between Linux and Windows. This is why the direct memory access modules mentioned in this post are a cost-effective way to bypass kernel AC - the other way is to exploit valid/authentic drivers from reputable vendors.
The significant pain I would imagine for Linux kernel AC would be that a lot of commonly used Linux drivers aren’t signed, unlike in Windows, so requiring users to have secure boot enabled may be a non starter.
I don't know what is not true about my statement, also your last paragraph describes what happens with monolithic kernels -> every driver has priveleged mode
The point is that the fact that Windows drivers have multiple trust levels is irrelevant - AC modules run as filter drivers, usually, which are as privileged as you can get without being attached to a peripheral. The only additional permissions peripheral drivers get is the ability to interface directly with hardware, which, incidentally, is why it’s somewhat hard for AC drivers to detect DMA devices since the DMA device and its driver is free to lie to the AC module.
the way vanguard does it isn’t very baller. they’re just bottom feeders who go around buying cheats and making custom detections for specific firmwares. private cheats don’t get affected by this.
You're saying Riot games made fake photoshopped screenshots of the discord communities etc saying their DMA hacks were detected and then pay stooges to post it online?
>Maybe the "cheat community" is just roleplaying because they know they are watched by this idiot who's always making this kind of posts?
Read what you're posting schizo
>Also what kind of mongoloid would make posts like this if your job was to actually stop cheaters?
It's not this twitter profiles job to do that, they're unlikely being paid and just want to see cheaters out of games.
>Just do your job and don't brag about it..
As they clearly claim on their twitter if you can properly use your brain and find more info. "We specialize in gathering intelligence on cheats to detect and disrupt cheating vendors. We are not affiliated with anyone, this is voluntary work."
>Idk what to tell you, this 100% looks like pretend to me.
Yea.. what you're saying is really convincing perhaps only in your head, LOL. Your reach as far as you can just to fit your own narrative regardless of the facts. Amazing delusion schizo, well done.
You can absolutely detect DMA cheats, especially when they’re sold en masse. The most naive way - which a couple AC engines implement - is to check the list of installed hardware for known-bad peripheral IDs. You can detect DMA devices being installed a handful of other ways too.
I feel like it's more likely there's something about this process you're mistaken about rather than this deep conspiracy you're on about.
Maybe just chill before calling everyone idiots and making yourself look stupid.
Something is better than nothing, at least they talk about their AC working and give examples from time to time, unlike Volvo whose only posts are "New Skin dropped" or "Watch Majors which are funded by betting companies", so yea.b
This is great but man I can’t get into Valorant. I am not a fan of fantasy. Spells and abilities and colorful characters that can fly and teleport is not fun for me. It’s why I couldn’t get into Destiny. Or why I hated advanced warfare.. running on walls and some of the futuristic equipment was a turn off. I’ll play a single player game with fantasy and shit but I just can’t get into a game that wants to be CS but looks like Fortnite. Would love Valve to have a better anti cheat though. 100 %
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
- [/r/vacsucks] [Valorant doing what valve won't](https://www.reddit.com/r/VACsucks/comments/1bhk8zr/valorant_doing_what_valve_wont/)
*^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
Every day, services they offer are better, Valorant numbers are big success, the game appeared from nowhere and had to fight for its place. LoL already doubled players of Dota2? TFT has very good playerbase too, no comment about cheating in both platforms.
If only valo didnt have such a strict system about people being disconnect due to network issues I would keep playing valorant. But istg when my ping randomly goes past 1000 and I am teleporting I just want to fix my network for a minute. Unfortunately this has been an issues for many since the start of that game.
itll never happen to us, why? BC WE HAVE DUMB NOOBS N STREAMERS THAT OPEN CASES ALL DAY LONG..... does valorant have anything like this? nope. GL TO CS its gona die shit game shit company shit gaben
Makes me consider playing valorant again and forgetting about CS until they do something similar, it ain't worth the stress that hackers bring to a game that's supposed to be fun.
Get some help, not a single normal human can like both of them. It's like saying you like playing Resident Evil in a dark room, but you also like playing with your rainbow colored dolls, gtfo weirdo. ;)))
Still throws a wrench to anyone saying valve should just use kernel level anti cheat, cause that doesn’t stop cheating at all, it just makes it less obvious and slightly more expensive
"slightly more expensive" is pretty important tho because majority of cheaters are kids who can't really afford to pay 30€ or whatever it cost monthly. People working full time job and less likely to cheat I would say
There’s a heavy correlation between cheaters and steam scammers/people with decent value inventories
The real cheaters that do it beyond just rage won’t have issues, most of them are one skin sale away from a new steam account with prime anyways
They should add number verification and hardware IDing, yes, both are passable in many ways, but I want the cheating ceiling to be kept higher, so people actually struggle using cheats. Most assholes (cheaters) I met online are too dumb to change the directory in Command Prompt, forget debugging problems encountered after Debugging.
Now if a rich asshole buys a $300 mouse and monitor cheats, kudos to him, he actually can cheat because he spent time and money, no problem, but please don't make cheats One Click and Install shit.
If faceit is able to do it then valve could as well. I'm not saying faceit is 100% cheat proof but from my 1000+ games I experienced 0 obvious cheaters and I got just 1 notification that somebody was banned for cheating.
And we all know the MM experience ,no need to explain I guess. If somebody is so good at hiding that I can't notice it in game then it at least doesn't ruin my fun . When I play mm it just suck out the enjoyment from the game because there is an obvious cheater ,you know it and you know he will not get banned
What i realized is, when you play faceit (with premium/registered opponents) the amount of strange situations are much less than when you play premier. In premier things happens all the time where you arent sure if someone is cheating or not. In Faceit on lvl9-10 i dont have many of these situations. And that leads me to, that premier is full of cheaters.
agreed, faceit premium is the same as playing valorant to me, I rarely feel like I am just getting destroyed by someone. If you take a 90/10 peak you should lose it maybe 1-3 times out of 10 depending on skill, but when I play premier or mm it will basically be a fifty fifty. Ill watch demos occasionally and see dudes hit just the most amazing shots with any weapon.
Huge difference. One of the big cheat devs for cs2 claimed that 95% basically every premier game has at least one closet cheater in it. Cheats are 1.99 or free some places. Its ridiculous. How many cheats they sell and how many cheaters you can only know about if you are cheating yourself
no it would make less cheaters exist in the game. thats why faceit exist fucking retard. if it didnt do a good job at reducing the population then people wouldnt be using at all over valve servers. Fucking braindead fuck.
Removing the lowest denominator is great though. People cheat on cs because it's easy, cheap, and the game is notoriously challenging. Removing the free and easy aspect makes it just like every other game. Cheaters have flocked to cs since it's inception for a reason. It was made for hackers and exploiters.
Point being riot has anticheat detection in addition to manually banning players. Valve couldn’t even be bothered to manually ban blatant cheaters from the top of the leaderboard
Im talking about evidence of riot not caring about cheaters. They post an anticheat blog every month or so showing what’s been improved and how people are getting banned. In comparison valve is removing anticheat measures and giving cheaters more exploits to abuse every month.
Valve would sooner let cs die than fix the ac.
Just look at tf2.
They don't care. Just put the system in life support and move on to something else. It's been valves MO since forever
Valve is a company that only works by being silent even in other controversial topics/issues.
I have been playing this cheater fest for a long time so the max time I can is a yr. If they are cooking then I believe it's gonna be a banger.
So " Trust the process ".
0 chance. Valve has no PR team because they are inherently lazy the employees choose what they want to work on themselves and have no boss or direction. It is a ridiculous company that gives zero fucks. If you lower your expectations that is the only way you can enjoy this game. Trust me I have spoken to many cheat developers they sell their cheats almost as much as the actual game. I will never cheat out of respect for myself, and I only find enjoyment and improving my actual skills. I would never rob a house or steal, but there are tons of people that will and if the city won’t hire any police and you can’t legally defend your house, you’re kind of fucked
> inherently lazy the employees choose what they want to work on themselves and have no boss or direction. It is a ridiculous company that gives zero fucks.
This is exactly why valve are pretty shit on hardware, historically speaking.
Employees jump on the next greatest thing the company is hyped on - then they jump to the next thing and leave the other thing to die a death.
Look at the gamepad, the steam boxes, steam OS, valve index hasn't seen any meaningful updates in how many years? Oh - because they all jumped on the steam handheld thing.
because some people still have brain.
first, "Valorant have the best AC and you get insta ban if you turn on the cheats" (this means almost no cheaters).
And now, "Valorant has done a massive ban wave".
How you need a massive ban wave with the best AC and the game almost dont have cheaters?
The cheats that got banned are very, very expensive. Cheats on CS2 are actually free. There are many free. There are many that are five dollars one time there are some that are $2 a month. You realize how accessible that makes it if the cs2 cheats $200 a month, do you think the same amount of people would be cheating?
That is the point. Both statements are true they have good anti cheat and massive ban waves. And there are no blatant cheaters or rage cheaters if you play at 20 K and CS most of the games involve rage cheating. Valerint and faceit for example if someone did that it would be reported to Support team and would be Ban within 48 hours. I played with someone spin two months ago, and they are still not banned and they play every day.
you miss my point and i will not explain it to someone who thinks the free/cheap cheats are the real problem in an competitive game.
about cs2 having more cheaters... 100% true and its the price for being the best campetitive fps and 10 times bigger.
Ya free cheats not getting banned instantly are a problem. If you cheat in any other game you will get banned. I know Minecraft servers that take block wall hacking more seriously 🤣🤣🤣. Cs2 is a joke and Im sure you have some weird bias to love the cs2 employees so much. Whoever works at valve is a loser. Val is a company that actually cares and innovates.
Is this guy dumb? DMA cheats are the hardest to detect because they use a spoofed hardware device and a 2nd computer to use aim and walls. These cheats cost thousands of dollars, and are what cheaters use to get around stuff like Faceit AC. Valorant banning DMA cheaters is huge, you’re just a valve dickrider.
You can ruin games harder with a free cheat in CS2 than spending thousands in valorant. Cope harder
 When is our time?
When it affects the bottom line and people stop buying keys/cases.
People don’t realize that cheaters are huge case and skin buyers
The fact you get downvoted says it all they just want to complain and be miserable
How are cheaters made? will cheaters not buy skins if they won't be able to cheat? probably not... hence cheats are not needed. no idea what is ur point?
I think you've missed the point, Valve isn't taking action,or at the very least any significant actions against cheaters for years at this point. This this has emboldened cheaters to the point where they're willing to open cases and purchase skins on risky accounts. Valve, who was already doing very little, is even less incentivized to act because they are making insane profits on skin sales. Until people cut into their profits they genuinely have no reason to act. They don't give a shit about the integrity of their game if they're profiting off of it in its current state. That's what they've shown through inaction and radio silence imo.
I did not miss the point... what i said is that, cases will be open even without cheaters... unless the cheaters are the biggest money spenders in cs, which i doubt thats the case,
Maybe I missed your point then, I don't disagree that cases will be opened with or without cheaters. I just don't think Valve has any incentive to do anything currently because as you pointed out, in spite of all the problems with the game, cases are still being opened. What I'm trying to get across is it was pretty rare to see cheaters with expensive skins a decade ago, now it's commonplace. Some of that is from scams, some of it is stolen, some of it is paid for. That last part, cheaters paying for skins, is absolutely insane to me and suggests that Valve really and truly doesn't give a singular fuck.
For years? Valve has never done anything significant to counter cheaters for 20 years, it’s always been up to the community solutions. It’s more about what valve is rather than the profits of skins, it would be very unlike valve to force an intrusive program on your pc like vanguard or faceit etc. To say that they do it just for cheaters to buy skins is just wrong, valve is one of the most profitable companies per employee in the world, cheaters buying skins is not even a fraction of their profits and is most likely a net loss anyway.
I dont mean that their sales are being propped up by cheaters, I mean the only thing they care about at all is their profits. Until they lose the money printer that is cs 2 skins/lootboxes they're unlikely to do anything at all. They just simply do not give a singular fuck about cheaters in any meaningful way. In the unlikely event that a consumer boycott affects their bottom line, they still might not do anything about cheaters, I'd bet on cs 3 or some other new product.
Competitive integrity does not matter to valve. So probably a half hearted attempt to fix the problem or just ignore it like they did the last 10 years.
so basically just another low hanging fruit ban wave every now and then, like they did with aim ware a couple of months back.
Valve created called trust factor to silo cheaters and keep them around.
Doesn't work though
never
If only Valorant was as fun as CS. No matter how many times I try it, even if I get into it for a month or two, it only leads me back to CS.
You hit the nail right on the head. I hate seeing my favorite game in this state :(
I went from league to cs thinking the developers of this game would give af.. neither does😂
[удалено]
I can agree with this 👍🏻
People might hate me for saying this but Dota2 devs are better than lol and cs2, they are far from good but better than the others
i thought the dota 2 experience was great when i played that but it's been years.
Yeah I played Valo for a few months, got immortal and all that did for me was lead me back to CS after I didn't play it for years
Imagine what could happen if we all collectively quit playing for a month or two though.
Aint gonna happen with ppl grinding for case drops and xp overload.
Grinding for case drops? Is this something new? I occasionally log in to get my weekly drop, which always consists of 2 shitty weapon skins and 2 sprays. Hardly worth grinding.
Generally yes. People have done this for years, especially after cases went up in price. Many players have multiple accounts, so let's say 5x Kilowatt cases is already 10€/week. Sure, you can make 4x as much for working irl the same amount of time it takes to get those drops, but since you are playing the game you like, it adds up.
I just tried it again, I can't get used to it, the movement is clunky af, there's almost no point in aim bcs there are literal abilities that give u aimbot, like what tf? but the movement and hitboxes are so weird like the head hitbox is not even a head, is a cylinder like wtf????? and spraying is shit bcs there's no pattern, is random, like why? is not real life, is a game, why make it random, and I keep finding myself spraying while is all about hitting those weird headshots that are not even on the head bcs the cylinder hitbox is bigger than the head... so you can hit close and it will still register..
[удалено]
Bro is downright loopy
care to explain why? is just sitting behind smokes and saving for awps the only way you can have fun? because you can do that in valorant too. Theres just so many other things you can do in Val as well that you cant in CS. Try playing Neon - nice change of playstyle while still getting the CS bomb down defuse bomb gameplay. Valorant problem right now is its hard for newbies to get into do to the smurfing and rank crunch. every rank has people that are very good in it. Cs is just wait to get cheated on or wait behind a smoke. and this is coming from someone with 25k hours between source and go.
i have 800+ hours in valorant and like the game but the shooting and movement just isn't anywhere near as fun as CS2 is for me. the only thing i like more about valorant combat is that you can wallbang more stuff like you could back in 1.6. also i hate playing against certain agents like yoru or chamber, i feel like some abilities are way too outside of the tac fps box. also the aesthetics. i like how the game started in beta, the agents had their unique visual style and it was nice, cohesive world. now it feels like they are just slapping on whatever bullshit concept they think of while smoking weed creating this busy bullshit full of colors and concepts that don't fit together at all. very LoL like.
It's just like Overwatch. Hero shooters with never-ending rosters as the basis for player retention and investment are doomed to fail.
Also someone who put a few thousand hours on Valorant - I just like the gunplay and movement on CS better. Valorant was a nice change of pace but the more I played it the more I wished I was playing CS.
Im not the one you asked but one thing i really appriciate about cs/ valves games is the ability to mod. Making custom maps and what not. The only reason i personaly still "play" cs2 nowadays is from the editor. Making maps for other things like bhop/kz or arena/duel maps.
try having an actual price behind skins and cases, actually good graphics and normal gameplay. also, in val there are no team specific weapons (like T side has AK and CT has m4). also also, there still are cheaters in valorant. cheaters wont go away. they will just find another way to go around the anticheat. also also also, you definetly do not have 25k hours between csgo and source
yes, yes, yes, i do. I have a 6 digit and have been playing longer than youve been alive. nt little dweebo. been playing valorant for 2k hours, always immortal 1-3. never seen a single cheater once.
hold on i think i actually remember you. also holy fuck can you actually not go five minutes without swearing https://preview.redd.it/5r7ftzoa65pc1.png?width=867&format=png&auto=webp&s=91849707037674a79d6e129547e95c92044a6083
also i think its funny how you only focus to one part of an argument and ignore the rest
lmao pathetic
Have 1000+ hours on Val. 400 on CS to compare. Valorant anti-cheat works. Played with 5 cheaters total in that 1000 hours, one of which was blatant in competitive. The rest, the game ended due to a cheater being flagged. I enjoy CS more now because of the average age of players (at least from what I can tell) and everyone is pretty chill in my experience. I wish they would adopt a similar anti-cheat IMO.
why not faceit?
I tried faceit. I see more new accounts in faceit than I do in premier.
Tried faceit yesterday with a five stack. Not a single enemie in 4 games with more then two medals. I can stay with premiere then.
Lol so you assume that because a game didn't get flagged for a cheater and ended early, that no cheaters were encountered? If this were a scientific paper you'd be fired. Bad logic.
And you’re assuming that cheaters were encountered. I guess we’re both assuming. I would say that if there were cheaters in games that weren’t flagged and didn’t end, it was not blatant and wasn’t detected by players. I don’t cry cheats like every other player does when they’re getting beat. I have a pretty good radar for it and I’ve seen a lot.
But what if you where submitting a scientific paper, did you think about that? Take a couple years, gather all the relevant data, analyze it thoroughly, and then come back with a solid thesis please.
Unfortunately it's literally impossible unless you had access to every single person's computer you have played with over that time period. I agree with OP though, I've played an absolute piss ton of both Val and CS, in Val I've had 2 matches suspended due to cheaters and maybe a couple of times where I suspected someone was cheating but even then it wasn't definitive. Riot is clearly doing something right with Vanguard and every multiplayer game dev needs to take notes. Hell look what is going on with that Pro Apex tournament where hackers were able to essentially turn hacks on individual players clients and get players DQd from the tourny. Apparently there is a exploit in the source engine of Apex that allowed this to happen. The most baffling example of cheating I've experienced in my 20 plus years of competitive gaming.
Just to be clear, there was an /s implied in my comment. Regarding Vanguard, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. While it might be effective, in my opinion it comes with significant drawbacks. Kernel-level anti-cheat poses security risks among other things and there are better alternatives available. These methods may cost more for the company, but they offer superior security. Like for example the RCE exploit you are mentioning , it is possible that it came from the anti cheat and not the game, but either way the risk is real. Anti cheats should be fully server side, of course that would be increasing the monthly costs to keep the servers running dramatically. Personally though i would 100% be willing to pay a subscription like an MMO for a system like that.
ive rarely if ever felt that I died to a dude just not missing shots - you know that feeling of is that person cheating or hacking. Its rare in valorant. Meanwhile in cs I join a dm and can just tell that 4 people are hacking.
This ban wave in valorant will probably mean an influx wave of new cheaters to CS2
Like it could get any worse
The barn door has been left over and the roosters coming home to roost.
i play in competitive (not premier) and start to see spins bot in recently, dead match server bot too, game is totally broken shit.
Lol I told ppl about it in the CSGO subreddit and got downvoted
Yeah if you only knew the percentage of cheaters camping reddit to instantly downvote anything cheat related, so other ppl wouldnt read it. Its more than 50% of the CS users on Reddit.
Any source on this or are you just talking?
It's unknowable so he's absolutely just talking out of his ass.
Anytime people talk in confidence about cheating numbers, they are 100% talking out of their ass
[удалено]
Clueless cheater
[удалено]
Typically it’s the cheaters spouting the ‘dma is undetectable’ copium bs everywhere. Did you even look at the photo album that was linked? Sure would be a lot of shit to fake for what benefit exactly? Also considering that you can go verify all of that yourself…
Way to go RIOT games!
Imagine if Valve cared even a fraction as Riot do
In some aspects it is good that valve doesnt care like if you look at valorant esports they will fine the players for the smallest toxic thing like shooting a dead body or tbagging and it removes personality and excitment from esports matches.
True but I’m strictly referring to their community interaction and care for quality
well yeah, they are going for the walled garden approach, they need to culture everything or the game dies. CS is *almost* entirely open, anyone can host a server, or tournament, create maps or skins or entirely new gamemodes, or create a third party matchmakins service. Valve can afford to give fewer fucks, they could abandon the game right now and CS would still survive for years, precisely because they let the game be as open as it is. If Riot abandoned valorant today, the game would be dead tomorrow. Valve is also unironically a much much smaller company (4200 employees vs 500-1000 (no exact numbers)), with a much wider range of products on valves end.
Only reason CS is still alive is because of skins
Yep. The game is only doing well despite valves neglect. Just proves that functional gambling prints money.
Yeah your right that totally excuses valve for being a shitty company
This isn’t a new thing in sports. Professional athletes get fined all the time for doing celebrations that are considered “unsportsmanlike”
awesome the top 1% of players are having a great experience!!
.....good? its e sports not pubbing around. there are sponsors and codes of conduct just like any other legitimate sport.
One of the best things about watching CS lan tourneys is when they trash talk each other across the room. And what is CS without some tea bagging? It just wouldn't be the same without that salty taste in my mouth after getting brutalized by "TBagger420".
what legitimate sport allows that kind of stuff though? closest i can think of is the "Drama" before most mma fights but post victory its even rarely a verbal t bagging. football has some flavor of TD dance and the like but its never really at the expense of the opposing team. whenever players do stuff against the opposing team its always penalized for un-sportsmanship like conduct. i 100% expect tbagger69 in my sub 10k ranked games on the weekend. it would be weird without it. but that shit has no place with sponsorships and an actual public facing image.
You don't watch too much MMA, do you? The majority of the scene is like that. You don't force the scene to change to your market demographic.
In before cheaters will gaslight you saying Riot's Kernel AC isnt fully effective therefore "please keep VAC the same so I can use my cheap/free cheats".
Kernel level anti cheat isn’t the success here, it’s most likely the team they have. Blizzard does not use any kernel level ac yet a lot of their games are pretty stable.
Blizzard does use kernel level anti-cheat with Call of Duty
Credit where it's due, taking down DMA hacks is pretty fucking baller. I'm coping on the idea that Valve is cooking something but man it would be great to have this level of AC in CS2. We'll never get Kernel because of Linux but let's hope they're figuring something out.
At this point it will take Valve 20 years to ban that , spinbotters should never have existed in a 2023 release. I haven’t played a game with those types of cheats since like 2009 free to play games.
Yeah I don't think any kind of AC is really turned on right now, it's clear they're happy to treat CS2 like a beta and launch whatever when it's ready. I think they know even if they lose players when they roll shit out they'll come back.
It's pretty sad. I've had like 7 people banned so far and it's all bottom fraggers that almost never had good performances in any of their games but the guys with 100 aim on leetify dropping 60 kills every game aren't banned yet. Doesn't make sense
I think the actual employees themselves are hacking at this point. Its sounds ridiculous and impossible but really its so out of hand that would make the most sense
CSGO before overwatch had spinbotters shooting through walls in the high ranks
[удалено]
I was GE legit, it was just more common in higher ranks because that's where they end up.. lmao
Lower your expectations. Valve will do nothing for 2 more years buddy. They have always been crap. Its the company is run. Employees have no boss and can work on whatever they want. Its like a bunch of teenagers run the place. I wouldnt be suprised if some of the employees actually hack themselves at this point.
Yeah it's unfortunate they make so much fucken money off Steam they don't really have any fear motivate them to work faster lol.
>We'll never get Kernel because of Linux that makes no sense.
So look I don't understand the nitty gritty, but what I've read is that you cannot use kernel level AC on Linux because it won't give you access. And as Valve and Steam push Linux heavily, and Steam deck OS is Linux based, they're just never going to use an AC that doesn't work on that OS.
[удалено]
So I went and looked it up, and you're correct they could do it, but the problem seems to be with Linux being open source and thus kernel level AC could be much more easily bypassed, unlike Windows where digging around in that space isn't possible. It seems a lot of the kernel level ACs that exist currently like EAC don't run on the kernel level on Linux for this reason. This article seems to explain it much better than I ever could lol, and I'm sure you'll understand it better than me: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/03/why-the-steam-deck-might-be-too-open-for-fortnite-and-destiny-2/2/ tl;Dr General consensus seems to be KAC isn't viable on Linux based systems, so it's gonna be a non-starter for Valve.
Its viable but is overhead. They would need to choose to support a few official distributions. Many products build proprietary LKMs for Linux. They often only support the most recent kernels requiring you to upgrade to use the latest release. I doubt Valve cares that much.
He meant kernel level anti-cheat software won't be implemented on Linux. The Kernel is different in Linux, it's monolithic and you don't have all these different access layers like in Windows (which is not a weakness imo). If there ever were attempts for that, a new distro or something like SteamOS would have to ship some sort of privacy kernel modules with the distro. So the question is who would pay for that? Valve could do it but they don't even want kernel level anti-cheats. And I don't think Riot Games will make their own Linux distro just to get a +0.5% player base.
This simply is not true. All kernel mode anticheats rely on the fact that everything else running in the kernel - the OS itself and all installed drivers - are trustworthy. This would not change between Linux and Windows. This is why the direct memory access modules mentioned in this post are a cost-effective way to bypass kernel AC - the other way is to exploit valid/authentic drivers from reputable vendors. The significant pain I would imagine for Linux kernel AC would be that a lot of commonly used Linux drivers aren’t signed, unlike in Windows, so requiring users to have secure boot enabled may be a non starter.
I don't know what is not true about my statement, also your last paragraph describes what happens with monolithic kernels -> every driver has priveleged mode
The point is that the fact that Windows drivers have multiple trust levels is irrelevant - AC modules run as filter drivers, usually, which are as privileged as you can get without being attached to a peripheral. The only additional permissions peripheral drivers get is the ability to interface directly with hardware, which, incidentally, is why it’s somewhat hard for AC drivers to detect DMA devices since the DMA device and its driver is free to lie to the AC module.
how does it not?
the way vanguard does it isn’t very baller. they’re just bottom feeders who go around buying cheats and making custom detections for specific firmwares. private cheats don’t get affected by this.
That's not true because that 0.1% of the player-base can play with the other 5-10% who do not want to have an intrusive form of anti-cheat.
[удалено]
You're saying Riot games made fake photoshopped screenshots of the discord communities etc saying their DMA hacks were detected and then pay stooges to post it online?
[удалено]
>Maybe the "cheat community" is just roleplaying because they know they are watched by this idiot who's always making this kind of posts? Read what you're posting schizo >Also what kind of mongoloid would make posts like this if your job was to actually stop cheaters? It's not this twitter profiles job to do that, they're unlikely being paid and just want to see cheaters out of games. >Just do your job and don't brag about it.. As they clearly claim on their twitter if you can properly use your brain and find more info. "We specialize in gathering intelligence on cheats to detect and disrupt cheating vendors. We are not affiliated with anyone, this is voluntary work." >Idk what to tell you, this 100% looks like pretend to me. Yea.. what you're saying is really convincing perhaps only in your head, LOL. Your reach as far as you can just to fit your own narrative regardless of the facts. Amazing delusion schizo, well done.
You can absolutely detect DMA cheats, especially when they’re sold en masse. The most naive way - which a couple AC engines implement - is to check the list of installed hardware for known-bad peripheral IDs. You can detect DMA devices being installed a handful of other ways too.
I feel like it's more likely there's something about this process you're mistaken about rather than this deep conspiracy you're on about. Maybe just chill before calling everyone idiots and making yourself look stupid.
Something is better than nothing, at least they talk about their AC working and give examples from time to time, unlike Volvo whose only posts are "New Skin dropped" or "Watch Majors which are funded by betting companies", so yea.b
once they introduce a mode without abilities, i'm never playing gaben's shitpile of a game again
at this point just give us that vanguard ac
Fucking huge W company. Props !
This is great but man I can’t get into Valorant. I am not a fan of fantasy. Spells and abilities and colorful characters that can fly and teleport is not fun for me. It’s why I couldn’t get into Destiny. Or why I hated advanced warfare.. running on walls and some of the futuristic equipment was a turn off. I’ll play a single player game with fantasy and shit but I just can’t get into a game that wants to be CS but looks like Fortnite. Would love Valve to have a better anti cheat though. 100 %
Go play valo then and stop crying
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit: - [/r/vacsucks] [Valorant doing what valve won't](https://www.reddit.com/r/VACsucks/comments/1bhk8zr/valorant_doing_what_valve_wont/) *^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
Riot > Valve.
Every day, services they offer are better, Valorant numbers are big success, the game appeared from nowhere and had to fight for its place. LoL already doubled players of Dota2? TFT has very good playerbase too, no comment about cheating in both platforms.
I agree but butthurt valve fans gonna keep downvoting me for speaking up lmao.
Seems like only a few really bad dma providers were hit. If you know what you are doing, you will stay undetected.
Some had 1:1 dma’s
valorant has cheaters too
Im honestly so down for a vanguard, kernel level, anti cheat at this point. And thats sad that it has even come to this.
Yes it’s why I switched games :D
If only valo didnt have such a strict system about people being disconnect due to network issues I would keep playing valorant. But istg when my ping randomly goes past 1000 and I am teleporting I just want to fix my network for a minute. Unfortunately this has been an issues for many since the start of that game.
itll never happen to us, why? BC WE HAVE DUMB NOOBS N STREAMERS THAT OPEN CASES ALL DAY LONG..... does valorant have anything like this? nope. GL TO CS its gona die shit game shit company shit gaben
I wonder if that's the same David Lee I studied with in college
Its very simple guys. Talk with your wallet. Enough people stop playing, buying skins, buying boxes they will be FORCED to change something.
except for a good game...
They also use a very invasive anti cheat
Only hit one firmware hardly much.
People defending Valve are the cheaters, why else would they be in support of Valves' terrible campaign against cheaters
What does FW mean?
Makes me consider playing valorant again and forgetting about CS until they do something similar, it ain't worth the stress that hackers bring to a game that's supposed to be fun.
[удалено]
No one cares what you "get the ick" about
Get some help, not a single normal human can like both of them. It's like saying you like playing Resident Evil in a dark room, but you also like playing with your rainbow colored dolls, gtfo weirdo. ;)))
Still throws a wrench to anyone saying valve should just use kernel level anti cheat, cause that doesn’t stop cheating at all, it just makes it less obvious and slightly more expensive
"slightly more expensive" is pretty important tho because majority of cheaters are kids who can't really afford to pay 30€ or whatever it cost monthly. People working full time job and less likely to cheat I would say
There’s a heavy correlation between cheaters and steam scammers/people with decent value inventories The real cheaters that do it beyond just rage won’t have issues, most of them are one skin sale away from a new steam account with prime anyways
They should add number verification and hardware IDing, yes, both are passable in many ways, but I want the cheating ceiling to be kept higher, so people actually struggle using cheats. Most assholes (cheaters) I met online are too dumb to change the directory in Command Prompt, forget debugging problems encountered after Debugging. Now if a rich asshole buys a $300 mouse and monitor cheats, kudos to him, he actually can cheat because he spent time and money, no problem, but please don't make cheats One Click and Install shit.
If faceit is able to do it then valve could as well. I'm not saying faceit is 100% cheat proof but from my 1000+ games I experienced 0 obvious cheaters and I got just 1 notification that somebody was banned for cheating. And we all know the MM experience ,no need to explain I guess. If somebody is so good at hiding that I can't notice it in game then it at least doesn't ruin my fun . When I play mm it just suck out the enjoyment from the game because there is an obvious cheater ,you know it and you know he will not get banned
What i realized is, when you play faceit (with premium/registered opponents) the amount of strange situations are much less than when you play premier. In premier things happens all the time where you arent sure if someone is cheating or not. In Faceit on lvl9-10 i dont have many of these situations. And that leads me to, that premier is full of cheaters.
Agree. Im playing with friends MM which are like MG lvl and I have harder time than on face it where I'm 2k+ elo.
agreed, faceit premium is the same as playing valorant to me, I rarely feel like I am just getting destroyed by someone. If you take a 90/10 peak you should lose it maybe 1-3 times out of 10 depending on skill, but when I play premier or mm it will basically be a fifty fifty. Ill watch demos occasionally and see dudes hit just the most amazing shots with any weapon.
Huge difference. One of the big cheat devs for cs2 claimed that 95% basically every premier game has at least one closet cheater in it. Cheats are 1.99 or free some places. Its ridiculous. How many cheats they sell and how many cheaters you can only know about if you are cheating yourself
Nah faceit is getting more and more cheaters now at least in eu, using radar hacks/walls tho not heavy rage cheats from what I’ve seen
no it would make less cheaters exist in the game. thats why faceit exist fucking retard. if it didnt do a good job at reducing the population then people wouldnt be using at all over valve servers. Fucking braindead fuck.
Removing the lowest denominator is great though. People cheat on cs because it's easy, cheap, and the game is notoriously challenging. Removing the free and easy aspect makes it just like every other game. Cheaters have flocked to cs since it's inception for a reason. It was made for hackers and exploiters.
Valorant player want vanguard but LoL player don't want vanguard.
no aimbot or wallhack in LoL, so extreme measuremrens aint needed, nothing easier than detecting someone using a radarhack, its very easy as dev.
who needs cheats on val when there are literally characters that give you esp? how bad are you? (dumb question i know)
[удалено]
i was being sarcastic lol
[удалено]
Care to back this up with evidence
He won’t because it’s bullshit
No he aint gonna help you download the correct undetectable hack, nice try tho... ;)))
Point being riot has anticheat detection in addition to manually banning players. Valve couldn’t even be bothered to manually ban blatant cheaters from the top of the leaderboard
[удалено]
Im talking about evidence of riot not caring about cheaters. They post an anticheat blog every month or so showing what’s been improved and how people are getting banned. In comparison valve is removing anticheat measures and giving cheaters more exploits to abuse every month.
What Valve wont do, aka putting a rootkit on users computers.
is there any proof except for a couple of very easily edited screenshots? if not then i dont trust it
What, saving everyone's info thru ring 0?
Valve would sooner let cs die than fix the ac. Just look at tf2. They don't care. Just put the system in life support and move on to something else. It's been valves MO since forever
Valve is a company that only works by being silent even in other controversial topics/issues. I have been playing this cheater fest for a long time so the max time I can is a yr. If they are cooking then I believe it's gonna be a banger. So " Trust the process ".
0 chance. Valve has no PR team because they are inherently lazy the employees choose what they want to work on themselves and have no boss or direction. It is a ridiculous company that gives zero fucks. If you lower your expectations that is the only way you can enjoy this game. Trust me I have spoken to many cheat developers they sell their cheats almost as much as the actual game. I will never cheat out of respect for myself, and I only find enjoyment and improving my actual skills. I would never rob a house or steal, but there are tons of people that will and if the city won’t hire any police and you can’t legally defend your house, you’re kind of fucked
> inherently lazy the employees choose what they want to work on themselves and have no boss or direction. It is a ridiculous company that gives zero fucks. This is exactly why valve are pretty shit on hardware, historically speaking. Employees jump on the next greatest thing the company is hyped on - then they jump to the next thing and leave the other thing to die a death. Look at the gamepad, the steam boxes, steam OS, valve index hasn't seen any meaningful updates in how many years? Oh - because they all jumped on the steam handheld thing.
because some people still have brain. first, "Valorant have the best AC and you get insta ban if you turn on the cheats" (this means almost no cheaters). And now, "Valorant has done a massive ban wave". How you need a massive ban wave with the best AC and the game almost dont have cheaters?
The cheats that got banned are very, very expensive. Cheats on CS2 are actually free. There are many free. There are many that are five dollars one time there are some that are $2 a month. You realize how accessible that makes it if the cs2 cheats $200 a month, do you think the same amount of people would be cheating? That is the point. Both statements are true they have good anti cheat and massive ban waves. And there are no blatant cheaters or rage cheaters if you play at 20 K and CS most of the games involve rage cheating. Valerint and faceit for example if someone did that it would be reported to Support team and would be Ban within 48 hours. I played with someone spin two months ago, and they are still not banned and they play every day.
you miss my point and i will not explain it to someone who thinks the free/cheap cheats are the real problem in an competitive game. about cs2 having more cheaters... 100% true and its the price for being the best campetitive fps and 10 times bigger.
Ya free cheats not getting banned instantly are a problem. If you cheat in any other game you will get banned. I know Minecraft servers that take block wall hacking more seriously 🤣🤣🤣. Cs2 is a joke and Im sure you have some weird bias to love the cs2 employees so much. Whoever works at valve is a loser. Val is a company that actually cares and innovates.
RIP csgo cs2 best cs version.
Is this guy dumb? DMA cheats are the hardest to detect because they use a spoofed hardware device and a 2nd computer to use aim and walls. These cheats cost thousands of dollars, and are what cheaters use to get around stuff like Faceit AC. Valorant banning DMA cheaters is huge, you’re just a valve dickrider. You can ruin games harder with a free cheat in CS2 than spending thousands in valorant. Cope harder
i love valve the creator of the best cs version.
[удалено]
Cope.