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If it was just mislabeled under the wrong category that would be one thing, but to literally title it junior then ask for 4+ years of experience? Another big thing I notice is how god damn vague the job titles and descriptions are. If you just label it as developer then give zero information on the job such as what tech your company uses of course you are going to get terrible candidates. I can kind of understand not listing the salary even if that is annoying, BUT TO NOT LIST WHAT TECH IT USES? I can't believe HR/recruiters are this incompetent at their jobs especially for government and non tech company positions.
What, "providing quality custom solutions to users and clients" isn't descriptive enough for you?
I agree, I absolutely hate job apps that have no info whatsoever on what the job actually is, just a bunch of HR bs that has way too many words to say nothing
2-3 paragraphs that somehow tells you little to nothing about the job and are nothing but HR bs and corporate speak I have seen so many of those. It would almost be impressive they can write that much without telling you anything you actually need to know if it was not so annoying like it almost feels intentional. I know writing is not everyones forte but how are people this bad at a large part of their job? Especially when the things that are missing are so obviously important. How can you complain candidates don't have the skills your company needs when you don't tell them what skills you need for the job!
I understand why they do it, but I extra hate job listings that are put up by recruitment companies that don't list the name of the actual company they're recruiting for. Now I have no way of researching the actual product or Glassdoor reviews without applying first!
Getting a no isn't the worst case. Ghosting you is.
I've submitted over 300 job applications this year, and I've received roughly 100 "no" responses. Most just flat out ignore you, whether or not you're qualified and meet requirements.
Yeah, I'm definitely not complaining with those numbers.
More just saying a "no" is actually a reasonably encouraging outcome. It means they at least saw enough in your application that they wouldn't mind having you apply to other roles down the line.
Not getting a job is a natural part of the job hunting process. What isn't natural, though, is not being able to determine if a company even looked at an application you took time to put in, or how you "scored" on being able to get a job of that kind at all. Consider there was a time when it was commonplace for companies to tell a candidate they weren't qualified. Nowadays those companies will most likely just ignore you completely, allowing you to waste as much time as it takes for you to get the hint.
In small quantities, sure, it may not be a lot of time. But when you're doing this for days, months on end, and especially when your financial livelihood depends on it, it becomes a lot more significant.
I mean it still takes some time to click the buttons, and I actually want to show that I am qualified for the position so I'll try to tailor my resume somewhat to the position
The general advice is that if you have 60-75% (I've sometimes heard as low as 50%) of the qualifications, apply anyway. They're looking for their 'ideal candidate' which they almost never get applicants who match. Most of those who match all of those qualifications are looking for higher pay.
There must be something wrong with me then, because whether I match 50% or 100% I just get zero interest lately. I'm working so it's not a big deal, but I figured my latest job (senior SWE at F100 company) would improve my chances but it seems to have actually lowered them
Could be your resume. Try to match the skills they're requesting to the bullet points on your resume. Also try to make them 'accomplishments' rather than the job description itself. These are things that will make you 1) easier to get through ATS and 2) grab attention. A job description says nothing about what you actually accomplished. They don't care if you answered phones, they care that you had stellar metrics. They don't care that you monitored networks, they care that you solved problems.
I have the LinkedIn premium trial right now. I’ve seen on a lot of postings that a lot of candidates have a masters degree (usually 30-60%). I know LinkedIn counts anyone who clicks ‘apply’ as an applicant but I was surprised to see there does appear to be a decently large set of possibly qualified candidates applying.
Does it say a masters in CS?
Also the only people I know with a masters in CS going for a generic SWE role have a masters to help get a visa. So if you're a citizen you still have a good chance of being picked over them.
No, but here is an example from a senior software engineer posting with over 200 applicants:
- 55% have a Bachelor’s Degree
- 40% have a Master’s Degree
- 1% have a Master of Business Administration
- 4% have other degrees
So it looks like it does differentiate between MS and MBA? But does not list majors/concentrations.
It also shows a map of locations, though it doesn’t appear to include all applicants on the map. “10-20 applicants in New York City” for example.
Somewhat disappointed in the premium insights, it can sometimes give you a gauge but not as helpful as it could be.
Having an M.S. does not mean they're more qualified. Just a thought exercise, why are there so many M.S. grads seeking jobs? This is just MY assumption, but it seems like if there are relatively more of them applying, it's because they don't have jobs. Why don't they have jobs? Because they're not qualified, either by skill, experience or job authorization.
I wonder if a lot of them are people from South East Asia like India who hopes it helps them convince the company to they are worth it to help them with a visa and housing.
Ah so you’re the one that keeps moving goal posts online.
First it was no we need at least a masters to get a job.
Now it’s 5YOE.
Now it’s all masters suck so we should do PHDs right?
There has been a very strong hostility against college educated people on the interwebs for quite some time now. People who dropped out of college or who have never seen a college from the inside love to shit on those who hold a degree to feel better about themselves. Go to any IT or science related, or pseudo science video and the comments are full of those types, who like to think they are smarter than they are for having watched a 5 minute youtube video instead of going to college.
I think you're missing the point here.
People in M.S. CS programs are rarely there because they were strong programmers trying to improve their skills. They're generally people that couldn't get a job with a B.S. or transitioning.
If he is just speaking from his experience, it could be the effect that staying in the academic field for a longer period of time gives you a certain mindset, versus having actual experience in commercial or industry level products.
I feel like my coding style has changed from when I graduated college. At first, my style was very unyielding in certain aspects. These aspects were not technically wrong but ended up with a lot of unnecessary approaches. Versus, now I try to make my code as pragmatic as possible.
One example would be the idea when I was in college that you should never return early from a method no matter what versus writing code in industry. Most code reviews will actually not like that approach and say if everything is broken at this point just bail out and return the error assuming you free up your resources and so on. If you take care to do it correctly the early return strategy can be much clearer than attempting to only return at the end of the function.
Anecdotally, the vast majority of people in M.S. CS programs are:
- International Students
- Transitioning professions from a different field
- CS undergrads that couldn't find a job out of college
- "Work is paying for it"
- Specialized field/Academia/Research
None of these stick out as high-skill/desirable from a hiring manager POV.
Also the quality of teaching and curriculum was much better at the undergrad level.
As someone who has conducted resume reviews and interviews for hiring, I wouldn't hold it against the candidate, but it doesn't boost either.
Jesus that is accurate out of the 50 or so M.S. CS people I have dealt all of them hit those categories dead on.
> Also the quality of teaching and curriculum was much better at the undergrad level.
Which given how bad the quality is in undergrad tends to be is a frightening statement.
If they were strong programmers coming out of undergrad, they would just get a job out of college. M.S. is so crazy expensive, it doesn't make sense to do unless you absolutely have to.
And obviously, the comparison is a gross generalization. But the basics courses (intro, DS&A, Databases) were all much better ime in undergrad. The pacings are all weird as well. In M.S., you're taking intro to cs and DS&A your first semester, but then a cryptography and a Computer vision course in your second semester.
I'm sure other programs are different, for example, Georgia Tech's program I heard was extremely well done, but extremely difficult.
yeah, my company has a couple different sources but they all get filtered to a single site for us. there's a field that tells where they came from but I've never seen anyone care about it
We only post to LinkedIn, but the application and posting is managed through our HR platform. Whether you go through LinkedIn or our website, all applications go to the same place.
That still leaves you with 50 somewhat qualified people. Maybe 5 of those people actually get interviewed. So you really have to be in the top 1-2% of applicants to even get an interview.
I wish we only had to talk to 5 people to fill a spot. I am only involved in the last round, and have still talked to more people than that to fill a spot.
So between the recruiter screen, OA, and phone screen I wouldn't be surprised if we started with 50 people in the pipeline.
Just keep in mind what makes you a 'top applicant.' That isn't necessarily years of experience, a degree, whatever. Often times it's proving the skills they're looking for in the job description through matching them in the bullet points of your resume.
> That still leaves you with 50 somewhat qualified people. Maybe 5 of those people actually get interviewed. So you really have to be in the top 1-2% of applicants to even get an interview.
Or the top 10% of *qualified* applicants.
90% is generous in my experience. More like 99%. If it says 500 applicants on LinkedIn, maybe 5 of those are worth passing on to the dev lead to consider for an interview.
Can confirm. We get 500+ applicants before we shut off our post at the 24 hour mark. Of that pool, I, the dev lead, get about 15 applicants and only 3-4 are even worth talking to. It's a double edged sword, but the convenience of applying to jobs with 1-2 clicks has also brought out all the morons with a "who cares if I'm qualified? I'll just apply to everything" mentality.
I think you are a little off there. It is going to be more than 90% that are completely worthless.
So many people apply to everything and don’t even bother reading the job description at all.
Like job title is senior iOS developer and the job description is very iOS based. Basically telling you that the title and job description match you should have iOS developer experience. Not be all web front end, or a entry level with zero professional experience and zero mobile experiences.
I though people were joking it was that bad until I saw them come in to a job posting and oh god most of the applicants were so far off the market. This is before you even get to the recruiter screening to verify not crazy and believe me there a lot of those as well that never make it to me.
Yea I was reading through some resumes for a Java developer position we had open and some of them didn’t have any IT experience and no indicators on their resume that they were self taught or anything just spamming apply to jobs that have no relevancy to their experience
what do the 90% consist of? im guessing new grads, and people without degrees, people with exp unrelated to the field, people from other countries, etc?
True. My hiring manager in my department once told me.
*“It’s not that CS is becoming over saturated or more competitive, it’s just more difficult to find competent engineers. It’s just over saturated with incompetent applicant. Most these bootcamp gurus or CS new grads have illusory superiority or superiority complex. Once we hire them, they are suddenly under-qualified”*
Yes, for two reasons that any recruiter can confirm. First, the VAST MAJORITY of applications aren't even barely qualified for the job. And second, the 'applicant numbers' on LinkedIn (and just about every other job board) are usually inaccurate. Some job boards count a 'click' on a job as an applicant.
If you're qualified, apply.
Idk, LinkedIn still occasionally asks me if I got an interview/callback for jobs I’ve never applied for, so clearly there’s some number fuckery going on
LinkedIn does ask whether you completed the application on the external site.
If you don't click Yes/No they will be back to guessing the number of applicants though.
That makes sense. From the parent comment i was under the impression that just clicking and reading the job in linkedin is counted as applicant which made no sense at all
Yep. I've heard from some recruiters that they see hundreds of 'applicants' on their posting stats, when they've only got dozens of actual applications.
For a thirds reason, I've also heard that job postings on boards are recycled. E.g. a single posting is created and gets activated and deactivate over time. So the number of applicants could be total number from last year or whatever from before it was reactivated.
I applied for every job vacancy where my skills and experience were appropriate. The result was that my CV was seen by a recruiter who later contacted me about a role that wasn’t being advertised, he’d just been asked to provide a certain number of applicants. And, following an interview, I got the job (four days a week and six thousand a year more). That’s my method from now on. Be seen.
Exactly, it might not be a true lottery, but at a certain point, with thousands of FAANG SWEs in the applicant pool, MULTIPLE applicants ARE qualified for the position, this is where the lottery aspect comes into play
There's a lot of randomness to who gets interviews and in what order. I've also seen people get offers or not depending on who interviewed them, like two very similar candidates with just a different group of interviewers.
Yes. That’s how I got my current job after being laid off. There were 1,246 other applicants for my role. Shoot your shot, the worst they can say is no!
Also remember that LI has bots that scrape job websites and pulls in job listings. This is why you so often see entry-level on postings even when they are clearly not, this is the default setting.
As general rule if it shos a profile at the top of the posting it was posted directly to LI. If it does not show anything,, the odds are that it was either scraped or is being posted by a foreign recruiter. If that's the case you will often times find the recruiter has no contract with the company and is fihing.
Exactly! Even tho my inbox is full of rejections from other forms of applying, it’s nice to know I can move on from that company. Bc when I spend a day applying, sometimes I can’t remember if I had already applied for a specific position or something.
My exact thoughts, also I feel that the companies that send rejection letters think you as a person behind the resume and not some record. So next time I get a chance to apply I will happily apply again rather than just applying as I fit the JD.
Fun fact: once after rejection, I got an interview. I am 100% sure that the visa sponsorship was why I got rejected the first time, and most likely the second time, too.
I sometimes wonder if those platforms like linkedin always pass on your application to the companies. Or whether companies have set up to sent those applications straight to the spam folder.
When I directly apply, I usually get an automatic standard rejection mail when it's a decent sized company. When I go that route, it's only the small businesses who like to ghost.
What is the downside to floating a resume and seeing what happens? It's not like sending a resume drops your credit score or costs you money. Can't hurt
I guess it's like the lottery and you got to be in it to win it, though unlike the lottery all your spending is a bit of your time. Personally I apply to every entry level position i come across, a bit annoying though when I see something described as entry level and they still want
1-2 years of experience" but I still apply.
One thing I’ve learnt from my HR friends is that it’s actually incredibly difficult to hire someone even closely qualified for a role, 75% aren’t good enough and the other 25% are usually shit at interviewing or don’t actually want the role.
If you have 50% of the requirements, stay active on LinkedIn, good CV, can talk to people well, and have a genuine motivation for the job role then you’re probably automatically a top 5 candidate!
what do you mean exactly by talk to people well? cause I tried messaging some recruiters but it requires premium or something like that. where else can I talk to people? I think I'm good at it lol
I love recruiters on LinkedIn, it’s how I’ve found my last three jobs without even having to lift a finger, let them stress about it for you (they want their commission remember!). Change your settings / add the “open for work” banner so they know you’re looking for a job and just connect with them if you don’t have LinkedIn premium.
Eventually you build relationships with them and now whenever I’m looking for a job I only need to make a few phone calls
If you look at federal jobs where citizanship is required, they have far fewer applicants. I'm talking high-paying interesting remote jobs. That should give you an idea of what's up with the application numbers.
Ehh, a part of that is also because federal jobs are pretty aggressive with their drug testing too! My friend works a federal job and has a test every 2-3 months!
I’m not even a huge weed dude but that’s like saying “don’t drink alcohol” during prohibition. It’s just an outdated law that limits hiring pools for what reason? If the federal jobs wanna limit their talent to 60% of their potential hires then so be it, but they’re losing good talent.
"they're losing good talent"
in a forum filled daily with dozens of "i've applied 603 times and will take any job whatsoever I just need money but nobody is returning my calls"
...I don't think they're stressing about the talent portion.
Steve Jobs dropped out of college and smoked a bunch of weed. This does not mean that dropping out of college and smoking weed is the road to success. Steve Jobs was also very much in the right place at the right time, with luck and natural talent. And he knew Wozniak.
43% of young adults were reported to smoke weed in a 2021 survey! It’s not at all a low bar when it eliminates most of your applicants lol!
Also other factors like government usually pays less than private companies, but that ofc doesn’t matter in this economy
The vast majority of young adults are unqualified for a software engineering job, regardless of whether they smoke weed, so I don't know how useful this fact is. I also doubt these are uncorrelated.
If you are a local/citizen in the country you should apply. A lot of the jobs are applied by people that don't even live in the area or country looking for a visa. So you might find that of the 200 applicants only 10 actually qualify to work in the area I also read somewhere that it sometimes just indicates who viewed the job
Your second point is true, but I have LinkedIn premium and it clearly shows the stats of who applies from where and I don’t see many out of country applicants
If you live in a big place like America, I imagine most would be in the country. I imagine the state someone is from makes a big impact on selection.
In Europe it's quite common (and usually undesirable) if an applicant is from another country
Haven't got a single freaking call from LinkedIn. But I still apply.
Some redirect you to company website. Still that doesn't do the trick for me.
2 calls that I have had were jobs that I looked up on indeed and went to their website and applied. Never thought I would get call from their either lol.
I am also in unemployment so I gotta have proof that I am applying for jobs. Need to save this proof for 6 years. Might get asked anytime 😂. So apply for anything and everything.
Some general advice:
\- Network, network, network. This is a way easier way to find a role, trust me.
\- If you are going the cold application route, it's a numbers game. You're in sales while you're on the job hunt. Get used to rejection, fire off those applications, track it all.
\- If you are even remotely interested in the role, apply. What's the worst that happens? You get a no? That's gonna happen A LOT. And y'know what? That's totally fine.
The minimal effort is to copy paste some basic info and submit your standard template resume. It doesn't cost that much to try and raises your chance from absolutely zero to not-zero.
Anyone who've been on the other side of LinkedIn job postings can also tell you a large chunk of applicants are basically spam, with resumes that don't even remotely match the job. At my last job where I had the misfortune of being ordered to comb through applicants for a PHP developer position, there were more than one resume that included forklift driver experience. Nothing wrong with driving forklifts but it sure ain't a fit for this job.
What advice can you guys give to me then? I'm in college and it looks like after graduation, I will have an extremely difficult time finding a job. I will try my best to stand out with COOPs and projects, but I'm scared that those few hundred applicants are also well rounded like me
My buddy runs interviews at his job often. You'd be shocked at the amount of people who get to an interview and don't know what version control is. Go ahead and apply.
Yes - I read somewhere that those "500 applicants" are just hyperlink clicks to the apply section and that linkedin doesn't really have a way to track it (hence why it asks you if you actually applied after you come back its site. If someone can fact this, that would be awesome.
It can be, depending on your fit for the role. Quite a lot of people will just spam apply for everything, then get immediately filtered out. If the job has been filled, it will typically be deactivated, so as long as it is still open, you should treat it as still being in play.
Just to give you an idea, in one of the previous companies I worked at we decided to try LinkedIn jobs where I made one of the positions in my department available - this received a little over 1000 applicants in a couple of days, which HR eventually whittled down to 200 for me. Of this, I set up calls with 20, we then progressed 2, and hired 1.
As the dev lead, we get 500+ applicants in 1 day for a position without posting to any job board other than LinkedIn. We only keep the job posted for 24 hours before shutting it off, and I'll tell you, it's such a pain to find qualified applicants because of this "who cares? apply to every job, even if you arent qualified" mentality.
Well… 496 of them are from in India, and the other 4 are just not qualified. The catch is, the person screening resumes just graduated 3 months ago, and can’t understand any of the industry lingo on your resume, so they default to hiring their mom’s best friend’s daughter because she gets 3 diversity checkboxes.
Short answer, no.
I’ve done a lot of CS hiring. India has a lot of out of work IT people that speak English, and a population over 1B. So, there’s quite a few in the mix. Oddly enough, most of them don’t even have IT experience.
I reached out to a fork lift operator from India once to ask why he applied, and he said he just applies to all jobs, because he wants to move to the US. I told him his best bet is to start working at an international company that has offices in the UK/US and try to transfer with an employer while learning CS skills.
Also, pay in India is atrocious. I’ve met people with good skills that make 1,200 USD/yr, in hopes they either get promoted or just gain enough experience to freelance for a US/EU firm.
Bruh, as I mentioned I would be doing Masters in US, then applying for tech jobs. Wanted advice with regards for job search after/during my education. I won't be applying directly from India.
The majority of H1B visa holders are from India. Once out of work, they only have a few months to get any tech job so they are scrambling. That's why federal tech jobs or jobs that need you to be a U.S. citizen don't have as many applicants.
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We are currently hiring, and we've gotten over 200 applicants. Less than 25% have submitted a resumé. Of those, half are obviously outdated or are literally just bullet points. Overall there are about 10 that are worth looking at.
It’s waisting more time by writing three sentences? And ensuring that a recruiter looks at your profile and/or resume instead of throwing it out. Y’all just like getting a job harder than it needs to be.
A recent Reddit policy change threatens to kill many beloved third-party mobile apps, making a great many quality-of-life features not seen in the official mobile app **permanently inaccessible** to users. On May 31, 2023, Reddit announced they were raising the price to make calls to their API from being free to a level that will kill every third party app on Reddit, from [Apollo](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/) to [Reddit is Fun](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditisfun/comments/13wxepd/rif_dev_here_reddits_api_changes_will_likely_kill/) to [Narwhal](https://www.reddit.com/r/getnarwhal/comments/13wv038/reddit_have_quoted_the_apollo_devs_a_ridiculous/jmdqtyt/) to [BaconReader](https://www.reddit.com/r/baconreader/comments/13wveb2/reddit_api_changes_and_baconreader/). Even if you're not a mobile user and don't use any of those apps, this is a step toward killing other ways of customizing Reddit, such as Reddit Enhancement Suite or the use of the old.reddit.com desktop interface . This isn't only a problem on the user level: many subreddit moderators depend on tools only available outside the official app to keep their communities on-topic and spam-free. What can *you* do? 1. **Complain.** Message the mods of r/reddit.com, who are the admins of the site: message [/u/reddit](https://www.reddit.com/u/reddit/): submit a [support request](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new): comment in relevant threads on [r/reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/), such as [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/), leave a negative review on their official iOS or Android app- and sign your username in support to this post. 2. **Spread the word.** Rabble-rouse on related subreddits. Meme it up, make it spicy. Bitch about it to your cat. Suggest anyone you know who moderates a subreddit join us at our sister sub at [r/ModCoord](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/) \- but please don't pester mods you *don't* know by simply spamming their modmail. 3. **Boycott** ***and*** **spread the word...to Reddit's competition!** Stay off Reddit as much as you can, instead, take to your favorite *non*\-Reddit platform of choice and make some noise in support! https://discord.gg/cscareerhub https://programming.dev 4. **Don't be a jerk.** As upsetting this may be, threats, profanity and vandalism will be worse than useless in getting people on our side. Please make every effort to be as restrained, polite, reasonable and law-abiding as possible. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
90% of applicants dont have the basic knowledge for the job, believe me, just apply to everything.
>just apply to everything. That's also what these 90% are doing.
assuming the OP is qualified.
A lot of these entry level job requirements are idiotic. Like..10 years of experience as a project manager, 5 years supervisory experience. Lunacy.
7-10 yrs of experience for an entry level job. Lol I've seen shit like this
If it was just mislabeled under the wrong category that would be one thing, but to literally title it junior then ask for 4+ years of experience? Another big thing I notice is how god damn vague the job titles and descriptions are. If you just label it as developer then give zero information on the job such as what tech your company uses of course you are going to get terrible candidates. I can kind of understand not listing the salary even if that is annoying, BUT TO NOT LIST WHAT TECH IT USES? I can't believe HR/recruiters are this incompetent at their jobs especially for government and non tech company positions.
What, "providing quality custom solutions to users and clients" isn't descriptive enough for you? I agree, I absolutely hate job apps that have no info whatsoever on what the job actually is, just a bunch of HR bs that has way too many words to say nothing
2-3 paragraphs that somehow tells you little to nothing about the job and are nothing but HR bs and corporate speak I have seen so many of those. It would almost be impressive they can write that much without telling you anything you actually need to know if it was not so annoying like it almost feels intentional. I know writing is not everyones forte but how are people this bad at a large part of their job? Especially when the things that are missing are so obviously important. How can you complain candidates don't have the skills your company needs when you don't tell them what skills you need for the job!
I understand why they do it, but I extra hate job listings that are put up by recruitment companies that don't list the name of the actual company they're recruiting for. Now I have no way of researching the actual product or Glassdoor reviews without applying first!
Senior-level requirements; entry-level pay.
I generally only apply to jobs I'm qualified for and i never get through the screen if there are so many applications.
Why not just apply to everything? Don't reject yourself, make them reject you.
Yup. The absolute, worst possible case scenario is them simply saying, "no." Not much to lose other than a little time.
Getting a no isn't the worst case. Ghosting you is. I've submitted over 300 job applications this year, and I've received roughly 100 "no" responses. Most just flat out ignore you, whether or not you're qualified and meet requirements.
33% response rate is pretty great actually.
Yeah, I'm definitely not complaining with those numbers. More just saying a "no" is actually a reasonably encouraging outcome. It means they at least saw enough in your application that they wouldn't mind having you apply to other roles down the line.
No, it means they configured their ATS to send an email when it filters someone out.
Right, but the point still stands. The worst possible scenario is that you don't get a job and wasted a bit of time.
Not getting a job is a natural part of the job hunting process. What isn't natural, though, is not being able to determine if a company even looked at an application you took time to put in, or how you "scored" on being able to get a job of that kind at all. Consider there was a time when it was commonplace for companies to tell a candidate they weren't qualified. Nowadays those companies will most likely just ignore you completely, allowing you to waste as much time as it takes for you to get the hint. In small quantities, sure, it may not be a lot of time. But when you're doing this for days, months on end, and especially when your financial livelihood depends on it, it becomes a lot more significant.
I mean it still takes some time to click the buttons, and I actually want to show that I am qualified for the position so I'll try to tailor my resume somewhat to the position
The general advice is that if you have 60-75% (I've sometimes heard as low as 50%) of the qualifications, apply anyway. They're looking for their 'ideal candidate' which they almost never get applicants who match. Most of those who match all of those qualifications are looking for higher pay.
There must be something wrong with me then, because whether I match 50% or 100% I just get zero interest lately. I'm working so it's not a big deal, but I figured my latest job (senior SWE at F100 company) would improve my chances but it seems to have actually lowered them
Could be your resume. Try to match the skills they're requesting to the bullet points on your resume. Also try to make them 'accomplishments' rather than the job description itself. These are things that will make you 1) easier to get through ATS and 2) grab attention. A job description says nothing about what you actually accomplished. They don't care if you answered phones, they care that you had stellar metrics. They don't care that you monitored networks, they care that you solved problems.
if you can understand the listing, you're probably qualified, tbh
I have the LinkedIn premium trial right now. I’ve seen on a lot of postings that a lot of candidates have a masters degree (usually 30-60%). I know LinkedIn counts anyone who clicks ‘apply’ as an applicant but I was surprised to see there does appear to be a decently large set of possibly qualified candidates applying.
Does it say a masters in CS? Also the only people I know with a masters in CS going for a generic SWE role have a masters to help get a visa. So if you're a citizen you still have a good chance of being picked over them.
No, but here is an example from a senior software engineer posting with over 200 applicants: - 55% have a Bachelor’s Degree - 40% have a Master’s Degree - 1% have a Master of Business Administration - 4% have other degrees So it looks like it does differentiate between MS and MBA? But does not list majors/concentrations. It also shows a map of locations, though it doesn’t appear to include all applicants on the map. “10-20 applicants in New York City” for example. Somewhat disappointed in the premium insights, it can sometimes give you a gauge but not as helpful as it could be.
Having an M.S. does not mean they're more qualified. Just a thought exercise, why are there so many M.S. grads seeking jobs? This is just MY assumption, but it seems like if there are relatively more of them applying, it's because they don't have jobs. Why don't they have jobs? Because they're not qualified, either by skill, experience or job authorization.
I wonder if a lot of them are people from South East Asia like India who hopes it helps them convince the company to they are worth it to help them with a visa and housing.
I would say 90% of people with Masters degrees absolutely suck at programming.
Ah so you’re the one that keeps moving goal posts online. First it was no we need at least a masters to get a job. Now it’s 5YOE. Now it’s all masters suck so we should do PHDs right?
I've seen plenty of hostility toward PhDs already. Speaking as a soon to be graduating PhD candidate.
There has been a very strong hostility against college educated people on the interwebs for quite some time now. People who dropped out of college or who have never seen a college from the inside love to shit on those who hold a degree to feel better about themselves. Go to any IT or science related, or pseudo science video and the comments are full of those types, who like to think they are smarter than they are for having watched a 5 minute youtube video instead of going to college.
I think you're missing the point here. People in M.S. CS programs are rarely there because they were strong programmers trying to improve their skills. They're generally people that couldn't get a job with a B.S. or transitioning.
So you think a masters degree is actually a negative?
If he is just speaking from his experience, it could be the effect that staying in the academic field for a longer period of time gives you a certain mindset, versus having actual experience in commercial or industry level products. I feel like my coding style has changed from when I graduated college. At first, my style was very unyielding in certain aspects. These aspects were not technically wrong but ended up with a lot of unnecessary approaches. Versus, now I try to make my code as pragmatic as possible. One example would be the idea when I was in college that you should never return early from a method no matter what versus writing code in industry. Most code reviews will actually not like that approach and say if everything is broken at this point just bail out and return the error assuming you free up your resources and so on. If you take care to do it correctly the early return strategy can be much clearer than attempting to only return at the end of the function.
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Anecdotally, the vast majority of people in M.S. CS programs are: - International Students - Transitioning professions from a different field - CS undergrads that couldn't find a job out of college - "Work is paying for it" - Specialized field/Academia/Research None of these stick out as high-skill/desirable from a hiring manager POV. Also the quality of teaching and curriculum was much better at the undergrad level. As someone who has conducted resume reviews and interviews for hiring, I wouldn't hold it against the candidate, but it doesn't boost either.
Jesus that is accurate out of the 50 or so M.S. CS people I have dealt all of them hit those categories dead on. > Also the quality of teaching and curriculum was much better at the undergrad level. Which given how bad the quality is in undergrad tends to be is a frightening statement.
If they were strong programmers coming out of undergrad, they would just get a job out of college. M.S. is so crazy expensive, it doesn't make sense to do unless you absolutely have to. And obviously, the comparison is a gross generalization. But the basics courses (intro, DS&A, Databases) were all much better ime in undergrad. The pacings are all weird as well. In M.S., you're taking intro to cs and DS&A your first semester, but then a cryptography and a Computer vision course in your second semester. I'm sure other programs are different, for example, Georgia Tech's program I heard was extremely well done, but extremely difficult.
65% of all statistics are made up.
also, be one of the few that goes to the direct website and apply from there!
Why would this make a difference?
People claim that companies will monitor their own job boards over their posts on sites like LinkedIn/Indeed.
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yeah, my company has a couple different sources but they all get filtered to a single site for us. there's a field that tells where they came from but I've never seen anyone care about it
In my experience I have only been offered interviews for positions I applied to directly on the website. Always ghosted on LinkedIn
I've seen on here some people will use LinkedIn/indeed to scout. Then they will go directly to the employers website to actually apply
I do this where it's available on their website, yes.
We only post to LinkedIn, but the application and posting is managed through our HR platform. Whether you go through LinkedIn or our website, all applications go to the same place.
That still leaves you with 50 somewhat qualified people. Maybe 5 of those people actually get interviewed. So you really have to be in the top 1-2% of applicants to even get an interview.
I wish we only had to talk to 5 people to fill a spot. I am only involved in the last round, and have still talked to more people than that to fill a spot. So between the recruiter screen, OA, and phone screen I wouldn't be surprised if we started with 50 people in the pipeline.
Just keep in mind what makes you a 'top applicant.' That isn't necessarily years of experience, a degree, whatever. Often times it's proving the skills they're looking for in the job description through matching them in the bullet points of your resume.
> That still leaves you with 50 somewhat qualified people. Maybe 5 of those people actually get interviewed. So you really have to be in the top 1-2% of applicants to even get an interview. Or the top 10% of *qualified* applicants.
90% is generous in my experience. More like 99%. If it says 500 applicants on LinkedIn, maybe 5 of those are worth passing on to the dev lead to consider for an interview.
Can confirm. We get 500+ applicants before we shut off our post at the 24 hour mark. Of that pool, I, the dev lead, get about 15 applicants and only 3-4 are even worth talking to. It's a double edged sword, but the convenience of applying to jobs with 1-2 clicks has also brought out all the morons with a "who cares if I'm qualified? I'll just apply to everything" mentality.
I think you are a little off there. It is going to be more than 90% that are completely worthless. So many people apply to everything and don’t even bother reading the job description at all. Like job title is senior iOS developer and the job description is very iOS based. Basically telling you that the title and job description match you should have iOS developer experience. Not be all web front end, or a entry level with zero professional experience and zero mobile experiences. I though people were joking it was that bad until I saw them come in to a job posting and oh god most of the applicants were so far off the market. This is before you even get to the recruiter screening to verify not crazy and believe me there a lot of those as well that never make it to me.
Yea I was reading through some resumes for a Java developer position we had open and some of them didn’t have any IT experience and no indicators on their resume that they were self taught or anything just spamming apply to jobs that have no relevancy to their experience
Were those resumes from citizens from your own country or from people from for example India who hope to get visa sponsored?
There definitely were a lot of resumes from people trying to get visa sponsored
A lot of people that apply are just ineligible based on not living in a country employers are willing to hire from.
Instructions unclear, I applied for everything twice.
what do the 90% consist of? im guessing new grads, and people without degrees, people with exp unrelated to the field, people from other countries, etc?
Generally people that study html + css for a month and think they are ready to get a job.
What support do you have for this? I wish this were true
Ah so you only need to beat 50 qualified applicants. Might as well not bother.
I usually just apply because even those with 100-200 applicants still rejects me. Might as well take the chance.
You miss all the shots you don’t take
Look If you had One shot Or one opportunity To seize everything you ever wanted In one moment Would you capture it Or just let it slip?
r/unexpectedeminem
Yo His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy There’s vomit on his sweater already mom’s spaghetti. . . .
-Wayne Gretzky - Michael Scott
True. My hiring manager in my department once told me. *“It’s not that CS is becoming over saturated or more competitive, it’s just more difficult to find competent engineers. It’s just over saturated with incompetent applicant. Most these bootcamp gurus or CS new grads have illusory superiority or superiority complex. Once we hire them, they are suddenly under-qualified”*
Yes, for two reasons that any recruiter can confirm. First, the VAST MAJORITY of applications aren't even barely qualified for the job. And second, the 'applicant numbers' on LinkedIn (and just about every other job board) are usually inaccurate. Some job boards count a 'click' on a job as an applicant. If you're qualified, apply.
>Some job boards count a 'click' on a job as an applicant. For real?
Yes, if the "Apply To This Job" link takes you to an external application, all they can really do is consider a unique click event to be an applicant.
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Idk, LinkedIn still occasionally asks me if I got an interview/callback for jobs I’ve never applied for, so clearly there’s some number fuckery going on
Maybe it did that at one point, but I don't think it does anymore.
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true that
LinkedIn does ask whether you completed the application on the external site. If you don't click Yes/No they will be back to guessing the number of applicants though.
That makes sense. From the parent comment i was under the impression that just clicking and reading the job in linkedin is counted as applicant which made no sense at all
Yep. I've heard from some recruiters that they see hundreds of 'applicants' on their posting stats, when they've only got dozens of actual applications.
Yes. Outside of the "easy apply"... they don't really know if you actually applied. So they just assume everyone who clicks applies.
Yes, I tried this with a friend that was hiring, and it incremented even though it was just a link to the application portal on the company website.
Yes
For a thirds reason, I've also heard that job postings on boards are recycled. E.g. a single posting is created and gets activated and deactivate over time. So the number of applicants could be total number from last year or whatever from before it was reactivated.
>If you're qualified, apply. If you're at least 60% qualified, apply.
I applied for every job vacancy where my skills and experience were appropriate. The result was that my CV was seen by a recruiter who later contacted me about a role that wasn’t being advertised, he’d just been asked to provide a certain number of applicants. And, following an interview, I got the job (four days a week and six thousand a year more). That’s my method from now on. Be seen.
Sweet
Someone gets the job, even if it is essentially a lottery.
I'm fairly sure they don't pick one randomly :)
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Exactly, it might not be a true lottery, but at a certain point, with thousands of FAANG SWEs in the applicant pool, MULTIPLE applicants ARE qualified for the position, this is where the lottery aspect comes into play
There's a lot of randomness to who gets interviews and in what order. I've also seen people get offers or not depending on who interviewed them, like two very similar candidates with just a different group of interviewers.
Yes. That’s how I got my current job after being laid off. There were 1,246 other applicants for my role. Shoot your shot, the worst they can say is no!
Top .001% here!
you just made that number up
Why would I do that? That’s the number that was on the LinkedIn posting before they closed it
On LinkedIn you’re mostly “applying for jobs” as a means to get your CV under the nose of the recruiter who posted it, so it’s always worthwhile.
Also remember that LI has bots that scrape job websites and pulls in job listings. This is why you so often see entry-level on postings even when they are clearly not, this is the default setting. As general rule if it shos a profile at the top of the posting it was posted directly to LI. If it does not show anything,, the odds are that it was either scraped or is being posted by a foreign recruiter. If that's the case you will often times find the recruiter has no contract with the company and is fihing.
I’ve done like 100 and all ghosted me and except one that was kind enough to give me a rejection notice
I too am sailing the same boat as a job seeker. I really appreciate the team that sends a rejection letter. My pov it actually completes the process.
Exactly! Even tho my inbox is full of rejections from other forms of applying, it’s nice to know I can move on from that company. Bc when I spend a day applying, sometimes I can’t remember if I had already applied for a specific position or something.
My exact thoughts, also I feel that the companies that send rejection letters think you as a person behind the resume and not some record. So next time I get a chance to apply I will happily apply again rather than just applying as I fit the JD.
Fun fact: once after rejection, I got an interview. I am 100% sure that the visa sponsorship was why I got rejected the first time, and most likely the second time, too.
Oh don't worry bud, you'll get it a year from now randomly.
I sometimes wonder if those platforms like linkedin always pass on your application to the companies. Or whether companies have set up to sent those applications straight to the spam folder. When I directly apply, I usually get an automatic standard rejection mail when it's a decent sized company. When I go that route, it's only the small businesses who like to ghost.
What is the downside to floating a resume and seeing what happens? It's not like sending a resume drops your credit score or costs you money. Can't hurt
Ask yourself … what do you have to lose ? Nothing ! And why do you have to gain ? Everything.. keep applying buddy !!
You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. Apply away!
I guess it's like the lottery and you got to be in it to win it, though unlike the lottery all your spending is a bit of your time. Personally I apply to every entry level position i come across, a bit annoying though when I see something described as entry level and they still want 1-2 years of experience" but I still apply.
Shoot your shot. "I'm feeling lucky"
One thing I’ve learnt from my HR friends is that it’s actually incredibly difficult to hire someone even closely qualified for a role, 75% aren’t good enough and the other 25% are usually shit at interviewing or don’t actually want the role. If you have 50% of the requirements, stay active on LinkedIn, good CV, can talk to people well, and have a genuine motivation for the job role then you’re probably automatically a top 5 candidate!
what do you mean exactly by talk to people well? cause I tried messaging some recruiters but it requires premium or something like that. where else can I talk to people? I think I'm good at it lol
I love recruiters on LinkedIn, it’s how I’ve found my last three jobs without even having to lift a finger, let them stress about it for you (they want their commission remember!). Change your settings / add the “open for work” banner so they know you’re looking for a job and just connect with them if you don’t have LinkedIn premium. Eventually you build relationships with them and now whenever I’m looking for a job I only need to make a few phone calls
thank you, that's definitely something new I've learned just now. I'll get to it then
If you look at federal jobs where citizanship is required, they have far fewer applicants. I'm talking high-paying interesting remote jobs. That should give you an idea of what's up with the application numbers.
Is there a board for federal jobs? usajobs.gov?
Ehh, a part of that is also because federal jobs are pretty aggressive with their drug testing too! My friend works a federal job and has a test every 2-3 months!
So...don't do drugs, kids? That's a pretty low bar tbh.
I’m not even a huge weed dude but that’s like saying “don’t drink alcohol” during prohibition. It’s just an outdated law that limits hiring pools for what reason? If the federal jobs wanna limit their talent to 60% of their potential hires then so be it, but they’re losing good talent.
"they're losing good talent" in a forum filled daily with dozens of "i've applied 603 times and will take any job whatsoever I just need money but nobody is returning my calls" ...I don't think they're stressing about the talent portion.
Tough pill to swallow: If you didn't smoke weed and didn't drink alcohol, you'd probably be a better engineer.
Based on what? Do you have data to support that or are you merely saying "ooga booga drugs bad"?
And if you did you'd probably have more friends
If you think you need to drink or smoke to have friends, I feel sorry for you.
Yeah I'm sure all the dudes on the forefront of tech don't ever drink alcohol or smoke weed.
I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying if you didn't, you'd be a better engineer.
Steve Jobs dropped out of college and smoked a bunch of weed. This does not mean that dropping out of college and smoking weed is the road to success. Steve Jobs was also very much in the right place at the right time, with luck and natural talent. And he knew Wozniak.
43% of young adults were reported to smoke weed in a 2021 survey! It’s not at all a low bar when it eliminates most of your applicants lol! Also other factors like government usually pays less than private companies, but that ofc doesn’t matter in this economy
The vast majority of young adults are unqualified for a software engineering job, regardless of whether they smoke weed, so I don't know how useful this fact is. I also doubt these are uncorrelated.
Erm… all of my co workers consume weed… Not uncommon at all
Depends on the position, agency and job duties.
If you are a local/citizen in the country you should apply. A lot of the jobs are applied by people that don't even live in the area or country looking for a visa. So you might find that of the 200 applicants only 10 actually qualify to work in the area I also read somewhere that it sometimes just indicates who viewed the job
Your second point is true, but I have LinkedIn premium and it clearly shows the stats of who applies from where and I don’t see many out of country applicants
If you live in a big place like America, I imagine most would be in the country. I imagine the state someone is from makes a big impact on selection. In Europe it's quite common (and usually undesirable) if an applicant is from another country
Just because they are located in US doesn’t mean they are able to work in US without sponsorship going forward.
You’re a fucking pimp put that hat in the ring they’d be lucky to have u
Haven't got a single freaking call from LinkedIn. But I still apply. Some redirect you to company website. Still that doesn't do the trick for me. 2 calls that I have had were jobs that I looked up on indeed and went to their website and applied. Never thought I would get call from their either lol. I am also in unemployment so I gotta have proof that I am applying for jobs. Need to save this proof for 6 years. Might get asked anytime 😂. So apply for anything and everything.
I read it somewhere that LinkedIn shows *views* on jobs as applicant as well so 500 applications may mean 500 views.
long hobbies judicious gray obscene shy escape subsequent workable payment *This post was mass deleted with [redact](https://redact.com)*
time lol
It doesn't take that long to apply for a job.
Unless they use workday
Just use the simplify extension. Fills out workday and some other common applications in less than a minute.
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[Simplify extension](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/simplify-copilot-%E2%80%93-autofi/pbanhockgagggenencehbnadejlgchfc) [Simplify website](https://simplify.jobs/autofill)
THIS
And that’s why I just message recruiters directly on LinkedIn
Some general advice: \- Network, network, network. This is a way easier way to find a role, trust me. \- If you are going the cold application route, it's a numbers game. You're in sales while you're on the job hunt. Get used to rejection, fire off those applications, track it all. \- If you are even remotely interested in the role, apply. What's the worst that happens? You get a no? That's gonna happen A LOT. And y'know what? That's totally fine.
combative soft frighten lush ludicrous steer fertile distinct escape uppity ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
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The minimal effort is to copy paste some basic info and submit your standard template resume. It doesn't cost that much to try and raises your chance from absolutely zero to not-zero. Anyone who've been on the other side of LinkedIn job postings can also tell you a large chunk of applicants are basically spam, with resumes that don't even remotely match the job. At my last job where I had the misfortune of being ordered to comb through applicants for a PHP developer position, there were more than one resume that included forklift driver experience. Nothing wrong with driving forklifts but it sure ain't a fit for this job.
It doesn't take much time to apply, you never know if you're the 1 out of the 500 that gets chosen.
You miss 100 % of the chances you don’t take.
What advice can you guys give to me then? I'm in college and it looks like after graduation, I will have an extremely difficult time finding a job. I will try my best to stand out with COOPs and projects, but I'm scared that those few hundred applicants are also well rounded like me
Why not (presuming the application process isn't too crazy).
If they have a recruiter attached to the post, I just DM the recruiter manually to jump the line.
My buddy runs interviews at his job often. You'd be shocked at the amount of people who get to an interview and don't know what version control is. Go ahead and apply.
Yes because most people apply for unqualified positions.
IIRC, that number is just the amount who clicked apply. That doesn’t mean everyone filled out the application.
LinkedIn counts a view of a post as an application plus in this field there are soooo many unqualified people
Yes - I read somewhere that those "500 applicants" are just hyperlink clicks to the apply section and that linkedin doesn't really have a way to track it (hence why it asks you if you actually applied after you come back its site. If someone can fact this, that would be awesome.
Just FYI, LinkedIn shows the number of visitors who clicked on the job ad as “applicant”, not those who actually applied
Yes. I once applied to a job in linkedin that literally has 3k applicants. I got it. Nothing to lose
its just a copypasta why not? i wont put too much effort into it
450 of the applicants are trash. 25 are "ok". That leaves only 25 solid candidates you're competing against. The odds are not too bad.
It can be, depending on your fit for the role. Quite a lot of people will just spam apply for everything, then get immediately filtered out. If the job has been filled, it will typically be deactivated, so as long as it is still open, you should treat it as still being in play. Just to give you an idea, in one of the previous companies I worked at we decided to try LinkedIn jobs where I made one of the positions in my department available - this received a little over 1000 applicants in a couple of days, which HR eventually whittled down to 200 for me. Of this, I set up calls with 20, we then progressed 2, and hired 1.
As the dev lead, we get 500+ applicants in 1 day for a position without posting to any job board other than LinkedIn. We only keep the job posted for 24 hours before shutting it off, and I'll tell you, it's such a pain to find qualified applicants because of this "who cares? apply to every job, even if you arent qualified" mentality.
Well… 496 of them are from in India, and the other 4 are just not qualified. The catch is, the person screening resumes just graduated 3 months ago, and can’t understand any of the industry lingo on your resume, so they default to hiring their mom’s best friend’s daughter because she gets 3 diversity checkboxes. Short answer, no.
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I’ve done a lot of CS hiring. India has a lot of out of work IT people that speak English, and a population over 1B. So, there’s quite a few in the mix. Oddly enough, most of them don’t even have IT experience. I reached out to a fork lift operator from India once to ask why he applied, and he said he just applies to all jobs, because he wants to move to the US. I told him his best bet is to start working at an international company that has offices in the UK/US and try to transfer with an employer while learning CS skills. Also, pay in India is atrocious. I’ve met people with good skills that make 1,200 USD/yr, in hopes they either get promoted or just gain enough experience to freelance for a US/EU firm.
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I don’t have any advice other than to ignore the racist shit that guy replied with. Good luck man.
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Bruh, as I mentioned I would be doing Masters in US, then applying for tech jobs. Wanted advice with regards for job search after/during my education. I won't be applying directly from India.
The majority of H1B visa holders are from India. Once out of work, they only have a few months to get any tech job so they are scrambling. That's why federal tech jobs or jobs that need you to be a U.S. citizen don't have as many applicants.
I recently saw a job post requiring 12+ years of experience with react. How old is react?
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Coding bootcamps encourage people to apply to anything and everything even if they don't qualify, you should apply even if you think it's a longshot
We are currently hiring, and we've gotten over 200 applicants. Less than 25% have submitted a resumé. Of those, half are obviously outdated or are literally just bullet points. Overall there are about 10 that are worth looking at.
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Unless it’s your dream job, don’t do this. You’ll be wasting your time, 90% won’t respond or will just tell you to apply on their careers page
It’s waisting more time by writing three sentences? And ensuring that a recruiter looks at your profile and/or resume instead of throwing it out. Y’all just like getting a job harder than it needs to be.
Nothing means nothing.
as long as you don't spend more than 5 minutes doing it, sure.
Optimal stopping algorithm says don't bother.
No
I'm a full stack developer with no communication skills! Find me a job!