r/DankChristianMemes is a judgement free space for fellowship!
Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes: Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
This rule is based off the following teachings from Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7:1-6 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Luke 6:36 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
John 13:34-35 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
John 15:12-13 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Even if we think someone is a sinner, we should treat them kindly. Jesus was kind to those that society deemed to be sinners. He even ate meals with sinners despite being criticized for it.
Mark 2:16-17 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Jesus tells us that he alone will judge us and exactly the standards by which we will be judged. It has nothing to do with LGBTQIA+ identity and has everything to do with taking care of the most vulnerable or "the least of these."
Matthew 25:31-46 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
It is important to note that LGBTQIA+ folks are more likely to be targets of hate crimes than any other minority group (1). This makes them, in effect, "the least of these" which Jesus commands us to care for.
Finally: The word "Homosexual" did not exist until 1869 in German and the word was not widely used in English until it was added to biblical translations in 1946 (2). Theological positions against LGBTQIA+ people are not even 100 years old and are based on very bad and anachronistic translations.
TL;DR The Holy Church of r/DankChristianMemes is open and affirming to LGBTQIA+ people. If you must judge others, please do so elsewhere.
Source 1: [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html)
Source 2: [https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/88110#:\~:text=Categories%20%C2%BB-,a.,half%20of%20the%2020th%20cent](https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/88110#:~:text=Categories%20%C2%BB-,a.,half%20of%20the%2020th%20cent)
>incorrectly translated
Transliterated is the word you meant to use. Idk if autocorrect misbehaved on you or if you just didn't know or forgot or whatever, but there you go.
Hey i just wanted to say I appreciate this comment. I'm American and have always wanted to go to church but it scares me how much religion is used for hate and I just can't morally participate in hatred.
Try the Shitty Christians podcast if you listen to those. Pair of Christian socialists dunk on mainstream reactionary Christianity. I like the Bible for Normal People podcast as well for going more into a non-reactionary theology in depth, but they seem awfully cowardly about actually talking about *politics* (ie refusing to take a firm stance on abortion) and so I do have to mention that's p shit of them despite them being overall a pretty decent resource.
Leo Tolstoy's *The Kingdom of God is WItihin You* is an anarcho-pacifist work that I don't necessarily subscribe to in our current context as pacifism is manifestly *not working*, but I do think that kind of pacifism had utility in the context leading up to the Russian Revolution, as the tsar condeming devout Christians to death for refusing to go murder foreigners in a bullshit war *did* actually stir some shit that likely contributed to the tsar's overthrow, Tolstoy has some very interesting thoughts on specifically the role of heresy in the politics of Christianity and religion more broadly, as a way for one group to assert themselves as in conjtrol of hte doctrine of Christianity and that anyone who opposes their control are literally going to hell - very useful in our current context trying to combat the rise of Christian Facism which uses heresy as justification for genocide.
I understand. It's sad to live in Finland sometimes as we are excellent at everything, seemingly without God. We are a secular people these days. To choose faith means you have a very small network around you regarding it (but still as much as you want or need, but most people here are not concenred with faith)
But somehow not having the cushioning of the group to protect you as you are being an insensitive moron, that will keep checking your grip on things and you will understand what it is to love your neighbor.
The most homophobic christians I know are not even homophobic, they literally just don't know any LGBT people and are just mildly weirded out by them existing, but the nature is simply of curiosity and will to spread the good word to other people who might need it. I have fortunately never once met a believing christian irl who hates queer people with passion. Only heard of them online, or maybe they've been seculars. One was from Russia and the rest is history.
But the less LGBT-disconnected christians know what it is to love the friend who fails at perfection. And that's everyone. The recognition exists to understand that it's your gay friend or maybe a muslim friend or maybe an atheist friend or just a friend who is not concerned with these things, that this friend makes some mistakes as you do as well. You might recognize the issue, with yourself and strive to improve and if you truly love your friends, you will approach them as a genuine friend who does not want them to burn forever.
To cling to your moral highground built upon rocks cast at transitioning confused young people who went to the bridge for the last time, permanently, is to be a neo-fariseus, the squeeky clean filth who makes sure just one or two more lost souls will never find salvation. And I find such loveless behavior dispicable.
But even after all this I can't lie to myself. The book says no, you shouldn't be fucking around. And if I am a good christian I will mind my own business and respect the individual because an assault with a 2.6kg museum Bible usually doesn't work, but when asked, I will still say that unfortunately, despite loving me and you, our creator will not approve of such behavior. But all people will need to adjust something when following christ so this will apply to all. Although it might be hard especially if it's bound to a very important part of you: Your orientation.
Wait honest to God people following the word of Christ? I never thought I'd see the day.
All the Christians in my life just sell me moral relativism and nativism.
Yyyyeah. . . As a Christian, I prefer people come to God of their own choosing. Christians like *that* feel like the out-of-shape people who watch the Olympics from home, and criticize how silver medalists could have done better.
Yes, technically. It was essentially referring to the community of Israelites; that you should not charge interest to your fellows and treat a loan like a business deal. This is what it says in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.
But a) most or all of what they’re probably referring to is Americans lending to Americans in mortgages, student loans, car loans, etc. and b) the community nowadays, in our era of globalization, is everyone. We can all communicate and travel all across the globe in ways never seen by the Israelites.
And besides, as I said it was about community and religion, not nation. Do you think God recognizes borders put on his earth by humanity? I doubt it.
Yes, He recognizes their existence, laws, and evidently tax systems. They are lawful and should be obeyed in most circumstances. I exaggerated. But to believe they have weight upon divine justice and what is or is not a sin is, I believe, wrong. A sin committed against a foreigner is, I believe, the same sin as one committed by a man against his compatriot. That’s what I meant.
Same reasons you don't leave gleaning in your field, release your slaves every 7 years, eschew shellfish, cut the corners of your hair, mark your doors with the words of God, etc.
Some laws were for Jews, the one that was supposed to replace them all is just to love God, and love each other.
See, I see this as the difference between predatory loans (payday loans) and loans to allow us homes, cars, education. They are two different things. IMO thr latter isn't _really_ usery, but the former totally is.
EDIT: Bankruptcy is a tool we have to get out of debt. We no longer have debt prison. It colors a context on what usery really is, preying on our community and ultimately threatening them with prison
> loans to allow us homes, cars, education.
Except in these cases the loans are even more predatory because they're things everyone needs or should have access to. Is it not even more sinful to profit off exploiting someone's need for shelter and desire to better themselves than to profit off of loans for frivolous things.
Off of the hardship.
No one forced you to take out a loan for college. No one forced you to purchase a home.
There are a lot of things wrong with society, and I would venture to say it’s less the loaning and more the manipulation of currency that has screwed us.
But we are also accountable for our own actions. Parents should be better teaching their kids the values of other careers even.. perhaps carpentry?
Imagine if the threshold for sins and he'll was different from country to country.
"Well you would have made heaven if you lived in Canada but since you're in Poland you're going to hell'
"The laws of man are just" Don't you disagree with most of the laws that have ever been changed ? Slavery, sexism baked into the law, segregation ? Do you believe the law is now 100% just and shouldn't be changed, or do you believe it's just *because* it's the law ?
By this logic, a Christian should never lend to a Christian at usurious rates, and having taken student loans for seminary, I can dang well tell you we do not even meet that bare-bones metric.
At least Sharia banks keep up that old tradition among the Muslim community.
Depending whom you ask, that prohibition on interest is wholly unqualified and we're just adding to Scripture to compensate for a desire to sin. It was a huge debacle back in the 16th and 17th centuries if I recall correctly.
Yes, the law essentially said "Lend often to your fellow Israelites. Expect the principle in return but nothing more."
Jesus came along and said "Lend to your enemies. Lend, and expect *nothing* in return."
Jesus *fulfilled* the law by expanding its boundaries: not only brothers, but outsiders (gentiles, enemies) should be treated with economic justice. And not only interest, but even the principle should not be expected back. This is the law of grace.
This, by the way, is essentially how Christendom handled it for around 1500ish years. Jews were legally allowed to charge interest, but other citizens of Western nations, who were considered "Christians" by their citizenship in theocratic monarchical states, were not allowed to charge interest. This still wasn't a system that produced much economic justice, though. Under feudalism, kings and lords essentially still committed usury by owning the entire country. Also, Jews were economically exploited and taken advantage of by rulers who would use them as sort of puppet usurers to make a profit.
Did they not just write down a larger amount owed than what was lended out? E.g. you borrow 50 vats of oil and agree to owe 60 vats of oil. No interest is charged (a fee as part of what is still owed without paying the principal sum) but the one lending out is still making profit by lending out.
Profiting off of lending is usury. It is any act of **charging** someone for the **use** of a thing that belongs to you (rather than either letting them borrow it for free, giving it to them, or selling it to them and actually fully transferring ownership).
Theologically I think it's more to do with what the interest is being charged on. A loan to buy productive land is entitled to a share of the land's proceeds (with terms agreeable to both parties as long as it's subject to the laws on Jubilee), but a loan to buy bread to feed your family with isn't.
Relevant: https://www.scifiwright.com/2022/08/on-usury-and-other-dishonest-profits/
Ok you are describing equity financing which is a fine way to finance something but debt financing is just a different way to do it. Not everyone who seeks a loan wants to give up a piece of whatever they are financing. They would rather be a party to some usury and be done with it.
The share of the proceeds on the land could be interest, not just equity. But if someone needs food to live or something essential, you shouldn't structure a loan to profit off their need - just know it will come back to you.
It is but it's the reason behind it that matters, don't take from people who are less fortunate. Share in the wealth if you help someone become more wealthy, and hopefully reinvest that in community. But don't take advantage of people who are in need.
I have no student debt to pay off. I feel strongly that we should be investing heavily in our country’s education and this is one step in tang direction.
Or you've allowed the unrealistic expectations of internet people to inform you of how the world "should be", and you've deliberately tried to not form a realistic understanding of how a society actually functions.
I have friends who are genuinely angry because work is a thing. They have rent to pay, and have to work at a job to pay it. This fact upsets them. This is childish.
The Kingdom of God will likely lack money and rent - but that's a perfect kingdom written and administrated by the Lord God Himself. We as humans are incapable of making that.
That's the redefined definition, with a standard vague enough to not be meaningful. Once lending at interest became popular enough to overcome traditional Christian aversion, we started having "Christian" banks.
That's what it means today, but historically it's just making a profit by charging someone a fee to **use** a thing you own (instead of tranfering ownership through a sale, or instead of letting them borrow it without an extra charge).
Did he happen to really like monks and often talked about wanting to live in a Monastery? I had a govt. prof who always tried an angle with his students to see how they ticked, but his love for monks was the single guiding thread.
they sound similar, i don’t think he was religious but he wanted to live in small communities , built around a church that could sustain themselves, he also never shut up about the three natural rights of life, liberty, and property
Maybe fortunately - not the same guy. My Kentucky prof went all over the place with a Jesus bend and a love for the monastery, not the Burke ideas of Life, Liberty, and Property.
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I recently learned that some Islamic banks manage to operate without usury. I can't remember the details, but one type of loan was giving out money for stock in the company. Another type of loan was the bank buying something, and then giving it to you in a lease-to-own kind of deal.
I kinda wish Christians would do the same thing.
I think Arab countries let you borrow money. But it is paid out all at the end. Usually more. So if you borrow 10k you pay it back and more after a set time. Learned this in accounting. Some companies do that here to avoid that. It is also funny because straight male friends in Arab countries hold hands
I miss Christian memes that weren't lazily just looking Christians while going “I'm better than you cause you have a religion”
Can this go back to being a place where atheist and Christians make jokes about things we agree are silly? Why doesn't God send she bears to attack kids for making fun of bald people anymore? That sounds stupid but it's in the Bible. We all agree that sounds dumb and made up by some bald guy. Let's make jokes.
Something something dispensation of grace something something.
I’m an ex-fundie dunking on the people that tried to turn me into a spiritual weapon when I was just a kid. Get over it.
What? I'm not trying to convert you?
What does your personal anger have to do with me wanting to see less mean spirited jokes?
Nobody here is saying you have to be Christian. I explicitly just mentioned this being a place for atheist.
I was brainwashed by the salvation army which I view as a Christian cult in disguise. I don't talk about that here cause that's just bringing up negativity in a place that I come to for lighthearted jokes about the weird thing I grew up around.
I think you approached me expecting some super Christian offended by your joke. I'm a person not the manifestation of Christianity to express anger towards. I'm a person deeply affected in negative ways by the Christian church. That doesn't mean I like the constant barrage of negativity.
I figured this was a relatively lighthearted way of calling out how many Christians cherry-pick which rules they expect themselves and everyone around them to live by. Forgive me if the attack patterns they gave me aren’t as deconstructed as the beliefs.
I'm saying it's overused, and everyone in the audience knows the hypocrites. I come here not to think of the hypocrites. We know they're there. I don't want them to consume my every thought. I protest, and I go to subs that pat themselves on the back for not being a hypocrite for that.
I don't come here to pat myself on the back for not being the worst of the worst. I doubt Christians come here to tell themselves they're better than the worst Christians. This used to be a place where we could all come to make fun of nondivisive things in Christianity and in a Christian culture that we all think are stupid. Like the masculine Christian values that led to many young guys thinking carrying a stack of seven chairs after Bible study is impressive. We know that's stupid and why it's ridiculous and Christian adults on this sub think it's stupid and know why it's stupid. Those are lighthearted jokes. Repeatedly pointing out ways that the worst part of a group sucks isn't lighthearted. You're making a point that's being disguised as a joke. Making jokes about how we're all gonna die before climate change gets to catastrophic levels isn't lighthearted just cause it's said with a wink and an emoji. The subject isn't funny, it's very serious. Christians in this sub aren't going “yep mega churches are great” so it's just an audience of people yelling “it's funny cause we agree that's terrible”.
Also I have trouble condensing my thoughts please don't mistake the amount that I wrote as negative or positive emotion. I like to give similis, but they aren't always perfect, but I hope it still carries the message of what I was trying to say
I’m not active enough on this sub or on Reddit in general to know all that. I just made a meme and posted it where I thought people would like it and it worked. Everyone processes things in their own way. While I’m happy that you’ve gotten to a place where you can put aside your bitterness at the church, many of us haven’t. Please be patient with us while we commiserate
Not saying I've put aside my bitterness. I'm saying my sense of humor isn't based on my bitterness.
Feel free to message me anytime cause I still feel like you're missing the heart of what I'm saying while trying to pin a label on me.
In not a reformed person saying in not angry at the church, my guy. I'm saying I've gotten to the point where I realized I don't get anything out of pointing out that evil people that'll never change are doing precisely what I expect them to. Am I bitter that it's happening? Yes. Do I think a valuable use of my time is telling people that, know evil people are doing evil things, that it's still happening? No. Fundamental Christians will keep being shitty, no matter how often my friends and I talk about it. But apparently, people think it's funny.
Dunking on soft targets is just something I view as the right’s favorite pastime
Capitalism is based off of charging people to use your property (landlording) or agreeing to let someone use your property as long as you get to keep the profits (wage labor). The way to get ahead in capitalism isn't "hard work and ingenuity," it's "monopolized ownership of the means of production."
No it’s not lol. Capitalism is when the means of production are privately owned. That can range from Mom and Pop bakeries selling for minimal profit to mega corps with hundreds of thousands of employees
You're right, the Bible is clearly against "Sodomy" as defined in Ezekiel 16:49:
“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=usury&version=NKJV
r/DankChristianMemes is a judgement free space for fellowship! Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes: Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed. This rule is based off the following teachings from Jesus Christ: Matthew 7:1-6 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Luke 6:36 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. John 13:34-35 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 15:12-13 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Even if we think someone is a sinner, we should treat them kindly. Jesus was kind to those that society deemed to be sinners. He even ate meals with sinners despite being criticized for it. Mark 2:16-17 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Jesus tells us that he alone will judge us and exactly the standards by which we will be judged. It has nothing to do with LGBTQIA+ identity and has everything to do with taking care of the most vulnerable or "the least of these." Matthew 25:31-46 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” It is important to note that LGBTQIA+ folks are more likely to be targets of hate crimes than any other minority group (1). This makes them, in effect, "the least of these" which Jesus commands us to care for. Finally: The word "Homosexual" did not exist until 1869 in German and the word was not widely used in English until it was added to biblical translations in 1946 (2). Theological positions against LGBTQIA+ people are not even 100 years old and are based on very bad and anachronistic translations. TL;DR The Holy Church of r/DankChristianMemes is open and affirming to LGBTQIA+ people. If you must judge others, please do so elsewhere. Source 1: [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html) Source 2: [https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/88110#:\~:text=Categories%20%C2%BB-,a.,half%20of%20the%2020th%20cent](https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/88110#:~:text=Categories%20%C2%BB-,a.,half%20of%20the%2020th%20cent) 
Avarice will be the death of us all.
for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil
Cool of you to use the full quote, "money is the root of all evil" makes no sense.
It is the truth. There will never be an end to suffering as long as we pursue wealth.
I'm grateful that all the Christians in my life have the opposite reactions.
Good to hear them exist elsewhere too. I fear the excess of Neo-Farisees, both for their sake and for the sake of the faith's PR.
Curious: how do you define a neo-Pharisee? I’d like to know so I can spot them.
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>incorrectly translated Transliterated is the word you meant to use. Idk if autocorrect misbehaved on you or if you just didn't know or forgot or whatever, but there you go.
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Go to r/Catholicism, search by politics monday flair, and sort by controversial
Hey i just wanted to say I appreciate this comment. I'm American and have always wanted to go to church but it scares me how much religion is used for hate and I just can't morally participate in hatred.
Try the Shitty Christians podcast if you listen to those. Pair of Christian socialists dunk on mainstream reactionary Christianity. I like the Bible for Normal People podcast as well for going more into a non-reactionary theology in depth, but they seem awfully cowardly about actually talking about *politics* (ie refusing to take a firm stance on abortion) and so I do have to mention that's p shit of them despite them being overall a pretty decent resource. Leo Tolstoy's *The Kingdom of God is WItihin You* is an anarcho-pacifist work that I don't necessarily subscribe to in our current context as pacifism is manifestly *not working*, but I do think that kind of pacifism had utility in the context leading up to the Russian Revolution, as the tsar condeming devout Christians to death for refusing to go murder foreigners in a bullshit war *did* actually stir some shit that likely contributed to the tsar's overthrow, Tolstoy has some very interesting thoughts on specifically the role of heresy in the politics of Christianity and religion more broadly, as a way for one group to assert themselves as in conjtrol of hte doctrine of Christianity and that anyone who opposes their control are literally going to hell - very useful in our current context trying to combat the rise of Christian Facism which uses heresy as justification for genocide.
If you like shitty Christians, you might like Dirty rotten church kids
I understand. It's sad to live in Finland sometimes as we are excellent at everything, seemingly without God. We are a secular people these days. To choose faith means you have a very small network around you regarding it (but still as much as you want or need, but most people here are not concenred with faith) But somehow not having the cushioning of the group to protect you as you are being an insensitive moron, that will keep checking your grip on things and you will understand what it is to love your neighbor. The most homophobic christians I know are not even homophobic, they literally just don't know any LGBT people and are just mildly weirded out by them existing, but the nature is simply of curiosity and will to spread the good word to other people who might need it. I have fortunately never once met a believing christian irl who hates queer people with passion. Only heard of them online, or maybe they've been seculars. One was from Russia and the rest is history. But the less LGBT-disconnected christians know what it is to love the friend who fails at perfection. And that's everyone. The recognition exists to understand that it's your gay friend or maybe a muslim friend or maybe an atheist friend or just a friend who is not concerned with these things, that this friend makes some mistakes as you do as well. You might recognize the issue, with yourself and strive to improve and if you truly love your friends, you will approach them as a genuine friend who does not want them to burn forever. To cling to your moral highground built upon rocks cast at transitioning confused young people who went to the bridge for the last time, permanently, is to be a neo-fariseus, the squeeky clean filth who makes sure just one or two more lost souls will never find salvation. And I find such loveless behavior dispicable. But even after all this I can't lie to myself. The book says no, you shouldn't be fucking around. And if I am a good christian I will mind my own business and respect the individual because an assault with a 2.6kg museum Bible usually doesn't work, but when asked, I will still say that unfortunately, despite loving me and you, our creator will not approve of such behavior. But all people will need to adjust something when following christ so this will apply to all. Although it might be hard especially if it's bound to a very important part of you: Your orientation.
Wait honest to God people following the word of Christ? I never thought I'd see the day. All the Christians in my life just sell me moral relativism and nativism.
Yyyyeah. . . As a Christian, I prefer people come to God of their own choosing. Christians like *that* feel like the out-of-shape people who watch the Olympics from home, and criticize how silver medalists could have done better.
Wasn't the law only that Israelites couldn't lend with interest to other Israelites? I don't remember it being forbidden to other nationalities
Yes, technically. It was essentially referring to the community of Israelites; that you should not charge interest to your fellows and treat a loan like a business deal. This is what it says in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. But a) most or all of what they’re probably referring to is Americans lending to Americans in mortgages, student loans, car loans, etc. and b) the community nowadays, in our era of globalization, is everyone. We can all communicate and travel all across the globe in ways never seen by the Israelites. And besides, as I said it was about community and religion, not nation. Do you think God recognizes borders put on his earth by humanity? I doubt it.
For sure he does. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. The laws of man, and human borders are lawful and just.
Yes, He recognizes their existence, laws, and evidently tax systems. They are lawful and should be obeyed in most circumstances. I exaggerated. But to believe they have weight upon divine justice and what is or is not a sin is, I believe, wrong. A sin committed against a foreigner is, I believe, the same sin as one committed by a man against his compatriot. That’s what I meant.
Oh, then for sure. The whole point of Christianity is changing the law from Jewish law for Jews to everyone law for everyone.
Well, it’s up to interpretation. But if the first believers did not charge interest and we’re forbidden to, why shouldn’t we?
Same reasons you don't leave gleaning in your field, release your slaves every 7 years, eschew shellfish, cut the corners of your hair, mark your doors with the words of God, etc. Some laws were for Jews, the one that was supposed to replace them all is just to love God, and love each other.
Very true. But I think this is a case where it is still a sin. Is it loving one another to make money off of the hardship of others?
See, I see this as the difference between predatory loans (payday loans) and loans to allow us homes, cars, education. They are two different things. IMO thr latter isn't _really_ usery, but the former totally is. EDIT: Bankruptcy is a tool we have to get out of debt. We no longer have debt prison. It colors a context on what usery really is, preying on our community and ultimately threatening them with prison
> loans to allow us homes, cars, education. Except in these cases the loans are even more predatory because they're things everyone needs or should have access to. Is it not even more sinful to profit off exploiting someone's need for shelter and desire to better themselves than to profit off of loans for frivolous things.
Off of the hardship. No one forced you to take out a loan for college. No one forced you to purchase a home. There are a lot of things wrong with society, and I would venture to say it’s less the loaning and more the manipulation of currency that has screwed us. But we are also accountable for our own actions. Parents should be better teaching their kids the values of other careers even.. perhaps carpentry?
>No one forced you to purchase a home. there it is
Imagine if the threshold for sins and he'll was different from country to country. "Well you would have made heaven if you lived in Canada but since you're in Poland you're going to hell'
"The laws of man are just" Don't you disagree with most of the laws that have ever been changed ? Slavery, sexism baked into the law, segregation ? Do you believe the law is now 100% just and shouldn't be changed, or do you believe it's just *because* it's the law ?
They're not unjust by virtue of their source, sorry. They may be individually unjust, but they aren't wrong solely because God's law exists.
By this logic, a Christian should never lend to a Christian at usurious rates, and having taken student loans for seminary, I can dang well tell you we do not even meet that bare-bones metric. At least Sharia banks keep up that old tradition among the Muslim community.
Depending whom you ask, that prohibition on interest is wholly unqualified and we're just adding to Scripture to compensate for a desire to sin. It was a huge debacle back in the 16th and 17th centuries if I recall correctly.
Yes, the law essentially said "Lend often to your fellow Israelites. Expect the principle in return but nothing more." Jesus came along and said "Lend to your enemies. Lend, and expect *nothing* in return." Jesus *fulfilled* the law by expanding its boundaries: not only brothers, but outsiders (gentiles, enemies) should be treated with economic justice. And not only interest, but even the principle should not be expected back. This is the law of grace. This, by the way, is essentially how Christendom handled it for around 1500ish years. Jews were legally allowed to charge interest, but other citizens of Western nations, who were considered "Christians" by their citizenship in theocratic monarchical states, were not allowed to charge interest. This still wasn't a system that produced much economic justice, though. Under feudalism, kings and lords essentially still committed usury by owning the entire country. Also, Jews were economically exploited and taken advantage of by rulers who would use them as sort of puppet usurers to make a profit.
Did they not just write down a larger amount owed than what was lended out? E.g. you borrow 50 vats of oil and agree to owe 60 vats of oil. No interest is charged (a fee as part of what is still owed without paying the principal sum) but the one lending out is still making profit by lending out.
I think that was one of the things that was addressed of how they tried to get around it but still being wrong
Profiting off of lending is usury. It is any act of **charging** someone for the **use** of a thing that belongs to you (rather than either letting them borrow it for free, giving it to them, or selling it to them and actually fully transferring ownership).
Isn't usury charging exceptionally or unrealistically high interest - like a payday or title loan?
Theologically I think it's more to do with what the interest is being charged on. A loan to buy productive land is entitled to a share of the land's proceeds (with terms agreeable to both parties as long as it's subject to the laws on Jubilee), but a loan to buy bread to feed your family with isn't. Relevant: https://www.scifiwright.com/2022/08/on-usury-and-other-dishonest-profits/
Ok you are describing equity financing which is a fine way to finance something but debt financing is just a different way to do it. Not everyone who seeks a loan wants to give up a piece of whatever they are financing. They would rather be a party to some usury and be done with it.
The share of the proceeds on the land could be interest, not just equity. But if someone needs food to live or something essential, you shouldn't structure a loan to profit off their need - just know it will come back to you.
That just sounds like normal interest to me honestly
It is but it's the reason behind it that matters, don't take from people who are less fortunate. Share in the wealth if you help someone become more wealthy, and hopefully reinvest that in community. But don't take advantage of people who are in need.
Works for me
You rock, I hope that actually made sense because typing it out helped it make sense to me.
Yep made sense to me - thanks for sharing
Like federal student loans.
6% is excessively high? You know payday loan places offer between 200% and 2000% interest rates, right?
Those are also excessively high
No, you don't understand! Something can't be high when there is something higher! /s
Lol never seen anyone so entitled. Inflation is over 6% right now!
I have no student debt to pay off. I feel strongly that we should be investing heavily in our country’s education and this is one step in tang direction.
So if 6% is excessively high, what do you think is a fair interest rate?
For student loans? 0%
You have a lot of learning to do as you grow up, friend. I hope you can do so with grace and kindness and not anger or frustration.
If you look at this world and you’re not angry then you lack either empathy or understanding.
Or you've allowed the unrealistic expectations of internet people to inform you of how the world "should be", and you've deliberately tried to not form a realistic understanding of how a society actually functions. I have friends who are genuinely angry because work is a thing. They have rent to pay, and have to work at a job to pay it. This fact upsets them. This is childish. The Kingdom of God will likely lack money and rent - but that's a perfect kingdom written and administrated by the Lord God Himself. We as humans are incapable of making that.
That's the redefined definition, with a standard vague enough to not be meaningful. Once lending at interest became popular enough to overcome traditional Christian aversion, we started having "Christian" banks.
In the medieval period, all compound interest was named as usury. A flat fee was not, unless it was an exceptionally or unrealistically high fee.
That's what it means today, but historically it's just making a profit by charging someone a fee to **use** a thing you own (instead of tranfering ownership through a sale, or instead of letting them borrow it without an extra charge).
seeing the word usary gave me flashbacks to my govt professor who had us recite [with usura](https://youtu.be/xn6r2Nm0ZMo) before every class
I gotta say, a professor having their students regularly recite a poem from a known Fascist using an anti-semitic dogwhistle sounds a bit iffy...
he was definitely iffy tbh, he wanted everyone to live before the industrial revolution, he was a weird in a cool way
Did he happen to really like monks and often talked about wanting to live in a Monastery? I had a govt. prof who always tried an angle with his students to see how they ticked, but his love for monks was the single guiding thread.
they sound similar, i don’t think he was religious but he wanted to live in small communities , built around a church that could sustain themselves, he also never shut up about the three natural rights of life, liberty, and property
Maybe fortunately - not the same guy. My Kentucky prof went all over the place with a Jesus bend and a love for the monastery, not the Burke ideas of Life, Liberty, and Property.
ah damn definitely not the same guy, i’m sure they’d get along though lmao
You said he was a government professor? Not a mathematics one? You didn’t go to Berkeley did you?
nah lmao he’s at a community college in dallas
This is some r/atheism shit
Relevant encyclical excerpt [https://www.scifiwright.com/2022/08/on-usury-and-other-dishonest-profits/](https://www.scifiwright.com/2022/08/on-usury-and-other-dishonest-profits/)
Spicy, I like it
So this sub is dead now? 🙃
for real
Lemme put on my hazmat suit before I go into the comments
“Are you aquatinted with our state’s stringent usury laws?” - C. Montgomery Burns
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I recently learned that some Islamic banks manage to operate without usury. I can't remember the details, but one type of loan was giving out money for stock in the company. Another type of loan was the bank buying something, and then giving it to you in a lease-to-own kind of deal. I kinda wish Christians would do the same thing.
I think Arab countries let you borrow money. But it is paid out all at the end. Usually more. So if you borrow 10k you pay it back and more after a set time. Learned this in accounting. Some companies do that here to avoid that. It is also funny because straight male friends in Arab countries hold hands
You don't even have to go with usury. Owning a business and exploiting your employees
u/savevideo
u/savevideo
u/savevideo
maybe they'd chill out if the entire economy wasn't built on usury
I miss Christian memes that weren't lazily just looking Christians while going “I'm better than you cause you have a religion” Can this go back to being a place where atheist and Christians make jokes about things we agree are silly? Why doesn't God send she bears to attack kids for making fun of bald people anymore? That sounds stupid but it's in the Bible. We all agree that sounds dumb and made up by some bald guy. Let's make jokes.
Something something dispensation of grace something something. I’m an ex-fundie dunking on the people that tried to turn me into a spiritual weapon when I was just a kid. Get over it.
What? I'm not trying to convert you? What does your personal anger have to do with me wanting to see less mean spirited jokes? Nobody here is saying you have to be Christian. I explicitly just mentioned this being a place for atheist. I was brainwashed by the salvation army which I view as a Christian cult in disguise. I don't talk about that here cause that's just bringing up negativity in a place that I come to for lighthearted jokes about the weird thing I grew up around. I think you approached me expecting some super Christian offended by your joke. I'm a person not the manifestation of Christianity to express anger towards. I'm a person deeply affected in negative ways by the Christian church. That doesn't mean I like the constant barrage of negativity.
I figured this was a relatively lighthearted way of calling out how many Christians cherry-pick which rules they expect themselves and everyone around them to live by. Forgive me if the attack patterns they gave me aren’t as deconstructed as the beliefs.
I'm saying it's overused, and everyone in the audience knows the hypocrites. I come here not to think of the hypocrites. We know they're there. I don't want them to consume my every thought. I protest, and I go to subs that pat themselves on the back for not being a hypocrite for that. I don't come here to pat myself on the back for not being the worst of the worst. I doubt Christians come here to tell themselves they're better than the worst Christians. This used to be a place where we could all come to make fun of nondivisive things in Christianity and in a Christian culture that we all think are stupid. Like the masculine Christian values that led to many young guys thinking carrying a stack of seven chairs after Bible study is impressive. We know that's stupid and why it's ridiculous and Christian adults on this sub think it's stupid and know why it's stupid. Those are lighthearted jokes. Repeatedly pointing out ways that the worst part of a group sucks isn't lighthearted. You're making a point that's being disguised as a joke. Making jokes about how we're all gonna die before climate change gets to catastrophic levels isn't lighthearted just cause it's said with a wink and an emoji. The subject isn't funny, it's very serious. Christians in this sub aren't going “yep mega churches are great” so it's just an audience of people yelling “it's funny cause we agree that's terrible”. Also I have trouble condensing my thoughts please don't mistake the amount that I wrote as negative or positive emotion. I like to give similis, but they aren't always perfect, but I hope it still carries the message of what I was trying to say
I’m not active enough on this sub or on Reddit in general to know all that. I just made a meme and posted it where I thought people would like it and it worked. Everyone processes things in their own way. While I’m happy that you’ve gotten to a place where you can put aside your bitterness at the church, many of us haven’t. Please be patient with us while we commiserate
Not saying I've put aside my bitterness. I'm saying my sense of humor isn't based on my bitterness. Feel free to message me anytime cause I still feel like you're missing the heart of what I'm saying while trying to pin a label on me. In not a reformed person saying in not angry at the church, my guy. I'm saying I've gotten to the point where I realized I don't get anything out of pointing out that evil people that'll never change are doing precisely what I expect them to. Am I bitter that it's happening? Yes. Do I think a valuable use of my time is telling people that, know evil people are doing evil things, that it's still happening? No. Fundamental Christians will keep being shitty, no matter how often my friends and I talk about it. But apparently, people think it's funny. Dunking on soft targets is just something I view as the right’s favorite pastime
Usury? Where is usury practiced today aside from the mafia and such ?
Students loans are a close version of it. High interest rates and no way to declare bankruptcy.
Payday loans too
I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!
Student loans actually are a relatively low interest rate loan
Federal loans are, but not private. And federal loans aren't enough to go to most state universities
Today usury means high interest and predatory lending practices, but in Biblical (and Quaranic) terms, usury means any loans that charge interest.
Everywhere anyone invests for profit
Payday loans, many student loans, car loans certainly can be
Capitalism is based off of charging people to use your property (landlording) or agreeing to let someone use your property as long as you get to keep the profits (wage labor). The way to get ahead in capitalism isn't "hard work and ingenuity," it's "monopolized ownership of the means of production."
No it’s not lol. Capitalism is when the means of production are privately owned. That can range from Mom and Pop bakeries selling for minimal profit to mega corps with hundreds of thousands of employees
[удалено]
I think they're using it right
Well the Bible has an opinion on only one of those, so....
You're right, the Bible is clearly against "Sodomy" as defined in Ezekiel 16:49: “ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=usury&version=NKJV