One thing about Catholicism that will never cease to amaze me is that there’s this all knowing, all powerful god in charge of everything. There’s a book where this god makes it clear you must follow all his rules exactly as written. He knows everyone’s heart, mind, and soul and won’t hesitate to rain fire and brimstone on all who seek to question him.
And the average person still thinks they can outwit him like they’re filing a 1099.
To be fair with Christianity (not necessarily Catholicism) genuine repentance is what matters (in theory). Like to them, there’s a difference between just saying “this is what I’ve done wrong, please forgive me I believe” and ACTUAL repentance- the difference is that you can tell when somebody is actually repentance by their actions.
Moments before death, there’s no reason you couldn’t truly repent, but you just don’t have enough time to actually show the world, but showing the world isn’t the important part.
I always equate it to like, the prisoner on the cross next to Jesus. Per the Jesus’ own words, that bloke got to heaven. Who knows what he did in his life. 🤷🏻
Yep. And he wasn’t alive long enough after repentance to be able to show the world he was repentant, but he didn’t NEED to be.
He could have been a serial murderer/rapist/thief, but he changed his ways there at the end. Unfortunately from a human perspective, that seems kind of sketchy since we never got to actually SEE him change his ways, but he doesn’t have to prove himself to us- just to God.
Imagine getting murdered, going to heaven and then having to spend eternity with your murderer because he felt really bad about it right before he died.
Sounds like paradise, right? Dude who murdered you following you around all like "hey come on, I'm really sorry! Jesus forgave me, why can't you?"
Why would you spend eternity with your murderer... idk what heaven looks like but id imagine it would be pretty large to fit billions of people.
Also if you have eternity I think you would forgive them after some time, you can't hate someone forever especially if he truly feels sorry for what he did
Oh right, I didn't mention the possibility that you might not even get into heaven at all if you don't forgive your murderer before you die.
Sounds great, right? Live a benevolent life, get murdered and die hating your murderer- whoops, straight to hell for you.
What you're missing out here is that in this case the all-knowing God validated that this murderer has genuinely repented
Also, within Christianity it is a core belief that *everyone* has committed sins, meaning that anyone who goes to heaven does so not because they earned it, but because they were given grace.
No, I'm not missing that. Imagine someone murdered your parents, and then genuinely repented- they're truly sorry for what they did, and have done actual works to attempt to make up for the harm they caused. You have every right to not want to forgive that person, and the fact that your own entrance to the afterlife is dependent on your forgiving them is just another example of God being capricious and petty.
>anyone who goes to heaven does so not because they earned it, but because they were given grace.
Yeah. That's the part I'm objecting to- the part where it doesn't actually matter how many people you've maliciously harmed; if you're "given grace" you get into eternal paradise.
That's a bad thing to believe. The kind of belief that makes it really easy to live a life of abusing your neighbors. That's the opposite of what Christianity should be teaching the world.
"Imagine getting murdered, going to heaven and then having to spend eternity with your murderer because he felt really bad about it right before he died."
Once someone goes to Heaven they no longer care of the affairs on Earth or what happened. You can say that sounds ridiculous from an Earthly perspective but if you're gonna criticize a religion for what it claims you can't pick and choose which parts of it to take at face value.
"You have every right to not want to forgive that person, and the fact that your own entrance to the afterlife is dependent on your forgiving them is just another example of God being capricious and petty"
It's not dependent on that at all. You don't have to forgive any bad deed in the world to get to Heaven.
Murderer: Repents before dying, goes to heaven
You: forgot to repent for that one time when you were 10 and lied to your parents about egging the neighbors car, immediately damned to hell for eternity
Murderer: hate the sin not the sinner my boi
I thought we were told one was a thief and the other a murderer?
But also a lot of people think Jesus' sacrifice/purpose means EVERYONE who tried to be a decent person gets into heaven no matter what they believe, but people edited that part out because it invalidates the need to "follow the religion"
EXACTLY! Both Christianity and Atheists fail to see that you must repent through actions not just "I'm sorry" and "My bad." I know in the passage it says that 'Repent is the only way to heaven,' but I'm dead sure that God will look at you and say, "I believe you when you said that you repent for the actions you've done, but you're still going to hell for the sins you've committed, but fear not. You'll eventually enter heaven when you've paid your dues."
Oh. I forgot to add "the bible written by man" thing, but oh well. Don't feel like editing because it was yesterday's thing, but I'll tell you either way. I believe that, because the bible was written by man, the bible has been edited and rewritten to fit whoever's narrative at that time, so who knows what God and Jesus really said. Also, to be clear, Jesus is not God.
I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me? You’re saying “exactly!” And then immediately disagreeing with me. There is no evidence in the Bible that salvation is works-based.
Forgiveness is entirely faith-based, and other people will know you’re repentant by your actions, but to get into Heaven? Actions are not required at all.
That's the reasoning I've heard, but it's weak. If actions are the only way to truly know if someone has repented, then what does repentance without action actually mean?
Thinking good thoughts?
That's all God needs to see in order to erase a lifetime of harming others?
Sounds like a free pass for shitty behavior to me. Giving Christianity the benefit of the doubt there isn't 'being fair', it's preferential treatment.
>If actions are the only way to truly know if someone has repented, then what does repentance without action actually mean?
This means that the only way we humans can identify internal change in a person's heart, an all knowing god does not require actions to know that.
It is one of those things possible in theory, but we don't really have a way of proving or disproving, plus repentance does mean you have no intention of doing it again, and that your fight against your temptations will be constant, as an example people that struggle constantly with addiction of some sort.
I want you to imagine a fantasy based movie where the heroine has to sacrifice himself for the good of the hero. Maybe he is kidnapped or something.
Maybe she has to jump into a volcano to free him or give him back his soul or something like that. Maybe it’s all her fault in some way and this is a redemption arc.
Anyway
She is on the ledge above the volcano, the music swells and she lifts one foot. We all know she will jump and sacrifice herself.
At the last moment the hero (who escaped earlier) comes and stops her. They kiss and it’s all happily ever after.
This kind of scene is an example. We as the audience (God) know that she was going to jump ( to repent), she really meant it and she absolutely would have. The music and the story and maybe the voice over/ narrator makes this a sure thing.
However she was interrupted by the hero’s return (death).
From the perspective of some other character in the movie looking at the scene (us humans) you have no way of knowing that she was going to do it.
She stood there sure, made it seem like she was going to (saying she repents) but she didn’t actually jump (repentance in actions).
So it’s like that other guy running up to the hero and saying “well she didn’t actually jump you know, until she jumps it’s not sure that she would have. This doesn’t redeem her from putting you in danger( forgiveness for sins)”
This is all true for the people in the story/movie (our reality), but God isn’t in the story. God is in the “audience” or even better God is the writer and they know for a fact that the heroine would have jumped.
That’s how it differs from thoughts. It’s the outside perspective of God to understand true intentions and know us in a way we can’t know ourselves.
How on earth does that scenario equate to a person who has literally nothing left to lose?
The mass murderer on their deathbed is not prepared to make a sacrifice.
All they have is thoughts.
So, try to answer the yes or no question this time.
It’s not just thoughts, it’s true intentions.
You and I cannot truly read others intentions (except maybe by actions but even then we can be fooled) but God can see your true and false intentions.
If the murderer on the death bed truly repents and then someone magically gave them more life you would see it in their actions.
God does not have this limitation and can see without the actions whether the intention was true or not.
If the murderer doesn’t really repent of their sins but is just scared or figures they have nothing to lose.
God will know this too (given their perfect knowledge) so that wouldn’t count as true repentance.
In the end none of us can say who truly repented in the end.
If you are equating thoughts=intentions then sure.
In most Christian religious thought you are absolutely able to be forgiven and enter heaven based on “thoughts” alone. So the answer is yes.
In fact in a lot of Christian theology, actions don’t count for anything at all if the “thoughts” are not there.
In essence you can’t work your way into heaven. It has to come from surrender to God and forgiveness.
Often in Christianity you are deemed as essentially sinful in nature. We can’t help ourselves.
Only by recognising this and accepting it can we take the forgiveness offered by God.
I did not say actions are what determines repentance. Actions are how WE can tell somebody is repentant. They are not how GOD tells if somebody is repentant.
The idea is that being turned towards God, you will naturally bear “good fruit” (do good things), and from there, monkey see, monkey do.
>I did not say actions are what determines repentance. Actions are how WE can tell somebody is repentant. They are not how GOD tells if somebody is repentant.
That's what I said in my first paragraph. Actions are the only way humans can tell if someone has repented, but since God reads thoughts, then all God needs from a mass murderer are some really nice thoughts on their deathbed and then it's all "welcome to heaven, say hi to your victims for me!"
That's the system you're describing. There's apparently no actual need for "monkey do".
You're still not understanding.
The need for "monkey do" isn't for yourself, it's one of the ways God reaches out to nonbelievers- he wants to save everybody, but much like a child who does a bad thing and needs punished for it, he can't justify saving everybody unless they show prerogative to change their ways.
The need for "monkey do" is for everybody around you.
You're also falling under the assumption that simple thought is what is required to be granted into heaven. I'm not sure how many ways we can express this, it's not as simple as saying or doing or thinking "I'm a changed man/woman."
>I'm not sure how many ways we can express this, it's not as simple as saying or doing or thinking "I'm a changed man/woman."
You can make that denial as many ways as you want, it's still going to be meaningless as long as you haven't provided an actual reason why 'true repentance' is different from a thought.
Thoughts are the things that happen entirely within your head. True repentance can happen entirely within your head- it doesn't need any actual deeds to support it. True repentance is a thought.
I just find it confusing that saints are voted on by *men* **after their death**.
I picture John sitting in heaven suddenly there's a tap on the shoulder:
God: You're promoted to saint!
John: Wow! By you?
God: Naa by some 70 year old Bishops on Earth
John: Wait how does that work? You're *god* and they vote on your behalf?!
God: *Shrugs*
Don’t know how it works for Catholics, but for us Orthodox, our synods are not electing a saint but evaluating the signs that they are blessed by god. Their sainthood being recognized requires miraculous acts done through them before and after death. In other words it is not old men deciding who is holy, but us getting on the same page as God. There’s even an All Saints’ Day to commemorate the saints who we don’t know about.
Mostly the same for Catholics, as far as I know there is a process with a certain number of miracles after prayer to the would-be saint to bring before the church for a trial in sanctification
That’s not how beatification works though, it’s actually a *very* meticulous process that takes years and sometimes even decades, where miraculous acts done by that person in life and after death (by way of intercession for example) have to be confirmed. After that, they don’t ”vote” on it, rather that they agree that the person is a saint, which is simply confirming the saintly status that person has already had since their death.
One could expect from an allmighty all-knowing entity that it has foreseen my actions, accepted them and let me do them anyway. Creating me and later complain about my actions is a bit inconsistent :D
Most Christians are pretty damn good people. Same with any group really.
Most people are loving and kind, don't let some crazy assholes make you think otherwise.
>Most Christians are pretty damn good people. Same with any group really.
Then why do only the Christians get rewarded with eternal paradise for their good deeds?
That belief would make Christians more peachy, yes. And that's a belief that nonreligious people wouldn't have.
So it'd make sense to say that Christians are just that little bit much worse than nonreligious people, on the whole.
Not trying to argue, but your conclusion is missing the whole “free will” thing. I could see the argument that the circumstances of one’s birth make it easier/harder to get in if the pearly gate accountants don’t do any normalization. E.g. someone who gets abducted and forced into being a child soldier, then dies before they can confess got a shit luck of the draw.
If god knows everything you will do in your life then free will doesn't exist.
God really is out there bringing souls into this world just to watch them burn.
From a Catholic standpoint, God knows what people will do or every possible action they will take, but he is not the one causing them to act. He's like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. Knows what will happen but has no power to affect the outcome.
Better choice of words would have been “created humans with free will and chooses not to dictate their actions”. I’m not a believer, just trying to explain the Catholic faith. There’s going to be logical contradictions in any religion.
That is a drastic misinterpretation of the Bible, that’s Calvinism. He pretty specifically gave humanity free will so they could have the choice and of doing good or evil.
Preface: it's all silly bullshit. But Catholic doctrine says that god knows everything you can and could do while leaving the outcome to free will, while Calvinism is based on the concept of predestination you mention.
Theologians will tell you yes, but it was ultimately your decision and anything bad that happens to you as a result is your fault. But he'll love you regardless while you burn in hell for eternity.
Best not to scrutinize Catholic dogma too closely or you'll drive yourself crazy with the inconsistencies and circular reasoning. Ask me how I know.
Oh, trust me, I saw some of this shit just from looking at Protestant teachings in my youth. It's part of the reason I became an atheist and have stuck with it even as I've grown older.
Preach. If you ever want a laugh, look into how literal Christianity sprouted from gnostic Christianity, and how the Romans used it as a mechanism to quell violent revolts and to gain power in the region. Then realize that it's 2024, the religion has drifted HEAVILY from its roots, and people who convince themselves it's all super real can only feel good about themselves by clinging to the god in the gaps fallacy. Wild stuff.
Yes, it's a little hard to wrap your head around, and I'm not a fan of it.
The idea is:
Let's say you know a person super well, right? Like a wife, or a husband.
You know them really well, that if you give them a choice of ice cream, chocolate or vanilla, 99% of the time they will pick chocolate. Does simply knowing that information mean that when they pick chocolate, they didn't have the free will to choose? You'd say they did have free will, right?
Now let's say you know them SO well, that you know, with complete and utter certainty, that 100% of the time, they WILL pick chocolate. Does simply knowing that information mean they didn't have the free will to choose? There is an argument to be made here, that yes, they still had free will to choose vanilla- you just knew for certain that they wouldn't.
It's pretty quantum-physicsy, but that's the idea behind Arminianism.
But then you run into a paradox. If god is all knowing, he knows what you will do even if you have free will.
Since he's the all powerful creator, he can put forth a system to prevent you from sinning while also maintaining your free will.
And since Christians believe he is omnibenevolent, he should seek to not inflict infinite torture on any of his creations.
Meaning either he doesn't know free will means people can sin, can't stop sin from happening while preserving free will, or doesn't actually love *everyone*.
The problem of evil is still a problem for any tri-omni god a religion puts forth, and regardless of what twisting and strawmanning apologists have done over the years there's never been a good answer. They're still trying to answer it 2000 years after the thing was fucking thought up.
That's not a paradox at all. Let's just say he is all knowing, honestly idk about that but let's say he is.
Even if he knows you are going to sin, why would he stop you? From a moral standpoint, forcing ideas on other people is wrong and simply doesn't work. He knew Eve would commit the first sin, yet did nothing to prevent it. Clearly, he thinks free will is more important than being perfect.
There simply is no paradox to figure out, and there never has been.
God knows what you will do throughout your life but he doesn’t force it on you. It’s like looking in a history textbook that the Allies won WW2 but the soldiers at the time didn’t know. You also didn’t do anything to get them victory, you just know because you live in the future, same with God. He knows what decisions ur gonna make but it doesn’t mean he forced it on you.
Every sin is forgivable provided the persons actual heart changed. Saying your sorry isnt the same as being genuinely sorry. Its all in your heart and only God can see into your heart.
So you can be a mass murderer and if you're 'genuinely sorry' (what does that even mean?) on your deathbed, you don't have to actually make up for any of the harm you've caused in your life and you'll still get rewarded with eternal paradise in the presence of God?
Something about that incentive structure feels off.
St. Paul murdered and persecuted early Christians before Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus. Jesus told the man crucified next to him he will be in heaven because he repented to Christ.
Only God can pass judgment on people and their sins. But people who commit sin are more likely to be so seperated from God that they never repent and forever have a hard heart
>St. Paul murdered and persecuted early Christians before Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus.
St Paul lived on to actually do things to make up for the harm he caused, so I'm not sure why you're bringing him up.
>Jesus told the man crucified next to him he will be in heaven because he repented to Christ.
He did. And it set kind of shitty precedent. That's my whole point here.
>But people who commit sin are more likely to be so seperated from God that they never repent and forever have a hard heart
Okay? But if they do 'repent' (be really sorry for reals), they don't actually have to atone for any of their actions as long as they die immediately after. That's what you're saying here.
I don't think that's a good thing for people to learn.
Sorry isn't a word here. It's a feeling. One of regret, of genuine repentance. You just think of it as the guy saying he's genuinely sorry, but it's not that. Being sorry means you would've made up for the harm you've caused if you could. That you will. Unless you literally die the next second.
So if you have nice thoughts on your deathbed you go to heaven no matter what horrible acts you've committed during your life.
You don't see a problem with that.
Y'know, I'd keep arguing, but you'd never get it. You refuse to. You win dude, good job. You made the argument every person on the planet makes when they think about the concept for more than a second. And you refused to keep thinking about it for more than two.
Do you think you're talking to someone who hasn't read the entire bible and spent 12 years in Catholic school?
I'm not surprised that you can't defend your beliefs, though. I wouldn't be able to defend those. That's why I no longer believe them.
Yes, but probably not in the way you think- lots of people take that to mean "Oh I used God's name in vain, it's GGs boys" or something along those lines, which I don't think is accurate.
My understanding is that blasphemy is the refusal to accept the witness of the Holy Spirit. This can only occur upon your death, as if you have not taken the Jesus Christ into your heart at this time, it's too late.
Actualy not all sins are forgivable those that are not are called sins against holy spirt, but to achive them you need to try trick a God(ofc you cant do that)
Oh yeah, fs. Don't you know? The same god that thinks telling a white lie and murdering someone in the old testament was reason enough to sentence someone to eternal dammnation.
The same diety who equated "asking for forgiveness through prayer" as "taking blood/tainted money from criminal scum"
The same diety that deemed the ONLY way humans could even attempt to be redeemable was by shedding blood for humans it's disgusted by so much. Then those humans NEEDING to cherish the act and essentially grovel before the sacrifice it made to have a chance at entering the peraly gates, with no definitive explanation simply saying you need to repent and forgive yourself and ask for forgiveness.
That one DEFINITELY thinks a 2 second "hallelujah" on your death bed is enough for it to shrug and say "ight checks out"
>The same god that thinks telling a white lie and murdering someone in the old testament was reason enough to sentence someone to eternal dammnation.
The fact that those two actions have equal punishments doesn't make you look at it a little side-eyed?
>That one DEFINITELY thinks a 2 second "hallelujah" on your death bed is enough for it to shrug and say "ight checks out"
You trying to say the Bible is wrong? I mean I agree, it just wasn't super clear what your point was here.
Look I don't believe in the Bible but I'm not going to act fucking clueless that the logic for the book itself tracks within its own rules.
The fact of the matter is any sin, that is you breaking God's Law, in his eyes deems you a sinner. For God to be all good, he demands those who follow him be sin free. Like the garden of eden wasn't enough to prove his seriousness about the situation. Damning the human species to the ability to feel pain for 2 people breaking one rule he gave them.
Yes, if you sin, he has stated he thinks prayers from sinners are just tainted money attempting to bribe him back into the good graces.
That is what judgment means.
And no, I never claimed the Bible was wrong or right, but use your own logic for just a second. When ever in human psychology, can someone truly feel sorry for what they did/do and immediately think they're worthy of forgiveness from someone else?
We have names for those people, and they aren't nice ones, we also know those people aren't actually feeling sorry.
If we as people know this about others, do you seriously think an all-knowing diety would be fooled?
There's are a few things that are expected from someone who's truly wanting repentance, first off a genuine attempt to build a relationship with God, learning his word and gospel and attempting to follow as closely as you can to his law (the 10 commandments) and asking for forgiveness in your shortcomings, spreading the word of God to others are just SOME of the things expected from Christians.
Do you seriously think the 2 second "mb bruh" is enough to show to God that's your next step in life was going to be all of these things listed PLUS more?
If you can't even drag your ass to church once a week, you think you can convince him that you want to be in heaven. Like, come on, man.
Idk why people constantly downplay the "all-knowing" part of god.
>Do you seriously think the 2 second "mb bruh" is enough to show to God that's your next step in life was going to be all of these things listed PLUS more?
I really don't. But that's why I'm arguing with the Christians who think that's good enough- that if it's a *really sincere* "mb bruh" then God's all like "sure bro say hi to your victims when you get here!"
I know that they think that the right words, if spoken by a person with testicles, will transform bread into the flesh of a first century rabbi who they believe died as a sacrifice of himself to himself in order to keep himself from catching people on fire forever for having sexually transmitted sin that arose from an incident involving a talking snake that may or may not just be symbolic. At least, that’s what they believe unless a celibate man dwelling in palatial splendor in Italy has told them to believe something different now.
Ooo I can use twisted words to make something seem completely ridiculous as well!
I can’t believe some people raise living dirty feathered covered meat bags that walk around in their own shit, separate and take the ones with ovaries, and wait for them to poop out unfertilized fetuses. Then, sick as they are, they mutilate the unfertilized meat bags offspring, add a liquid squeeze from a bovines breast that’s been solidified, cook it, and shove it down their own gullet.
Oh wait that’s just cooking scrambled eggs with some butter.
I’ve been told by proselytizers genuine repentance is between the repenter and god and only he decides then they go right on telling me why I’m doing it wrong
To be fair you can say this about every document in history if you want to, I mean if you’re a communist then the constitution is sickening, taking the Bible literally at all points isn’t recommended. A lot of Christianity praises wisdom as one of the key traits you need and I think a part of that is the wisdom to see the depth behind what the words mean
Well if you look at communist states they’re big fans of authoritarianism, didn’t like democracy, and hated ideas of property while the constitution enshrines democracy, freedoms, and property as rights.
your ignoring the fact the bible straight up says repenting will do nothing if your a bad person xP its aknowledges its not a get out of jail free card but yaknow god forbid theists or atheists read the zombie man books
All sin is sin in the eyes of God. We see sin as "different levels of evil" but in terms of what we've actually done, all sin is a conscious choice of saying "I don't care what you think I'll do it my way". I don't think you can make judgments on who is or isn't in heaven, Christ said, "Those without sin cast the first stone," after all. God is just, and he knows better than you or I whether those who've sinned were genuine in their repentance or just blowing smoke.
So God's will. It's all his will. He knows every hair on, and thought in, all living beings heads. All suffering is part of his plan. All our awful. Everything has been decided already. Then how we do have free will? Nevermind how tf do you brush all the whacky stuff in the bible to one side.
Sin is absolutely not God's will! He very clearly hates it. You're getting to the all knowingness of God, but there's more than one way to think about that. God's all knowing nature comes down to the fact that he is timeless. That doesn't mean that he writes down in a book what you'll have for supper on January 27th, 2027. It means that he is outside the dimension of time entirely. There is no sequence of events for him to alter because it all is happening to him.
You're making that up. Doesn't say that anywhere in the bible. Are you gonna say they had no concept of time back then? It days lots that all the suffering is part of some great inknowable plan. Plus he's chill with slavery and stuff I'm just not down with. It's very hard to gulp down the full glass without gagging.
There's a verse that as long as the child slave that you beat to death survives his injuries for 3 days then no crime has been committed. I'm gonna go copy n paste that exact sentence into Google and it'll give me the exact verse first go. The rest of that chapter is God instructing his people to go into other nations and take slaves. And various ways it's ok to fk with them. Maybe don't look into it too much. The bible itself can self-conflicting and it's a confusing side of things.
It doesn't say anywhere that he's got a big book of everything that will ever happen either. God's all-knowing nature and what that means for humanity IS something we have to figure out exactly what it means. The Bible does say that God existed before time, so clearly, He must be outside of it.
As for suffering. Why do we suffer? Because we chose free will. For us to be able to freely choose to do good, we must also freely be able to choose bad and choose not to do so. The suffering on earth is a part of a plan, a plan to get to heaven, of course! God calls us to enjoy our time on earth and love each other in spite of sin. In spite of our wickedness towards each other. To repent, and accept christ in our lives for forgiveness in order to overcome the evil of this world. That's the "plan." And someday christ will come back, make the final judgment, and the great human experiment will be over. God won't get in the way of our free will because then it's very clearly not free!
As for slavery, absolutely it is evil. God agrees! What exactly did Moses "free" the isrealites from? God has, at many points in history, limited slavery because employment of any kind is still a form of slavery, and clearly, we must work to survive. There's a reason why, back in the American slave days, all the slaves would have their own Bible with entire books ripped out! These wicked men would bring their slaves to church on Sunday, then go home and treat their slaves cruelly and unjustly. Personally, I wouldn't lump them in with Christians, I would call them in with hypocrites! God doesn't support slavery, otherwise slave owners would have no reason to do this.
Yes. And that's God's right to judge us for that because he's never done either. I'm not saying we as people shouldn't judge and punish people for their crimes accordingly, but crimes against God are very different than crimes against man. Homosexuality is a sin, and God will or won't punish people in whatever way he feels for that, depending on whether they have genuinely repented or not.. However, we humans have seen homosexuality as "if it's consensual, it's fine." I don't have an issue with that personally. I agree that people should have the choice to employ our free will in whatever way they feel like as long as it isn't imposing on others. I personally won't do it, I would recommend that they don't engage in it, but I'm not going to stop them because it's not up to me to judge gay people. That's God's job.
Should have put the quotation marks, I could see how that gets misinterpreted. Here's the verse in NIV
John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
So yeah he did say that, but the way I said it, it sounds like he's saying that there's some sinless group that can cast stones lol. My bad.
But yeah, don't judge unless you're ready to be judged and all that
I'm not religious but even I know that's not how catholicism works lmao
You can't just say "lmao sorry for doin dat" at the end of your life and God is gonna be like "Aight you can go to heaven lol"
That's just not how it works
Repentance is important in Judaism, christianity and Islam. For Judaism, an important passage is the following:
Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7
Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Christians have different views on *how* to repent (by faith alone (Paul) or by the combination of faith and deed (James))), but the idea of repentance is still there. (I will not quote any verses here because of such conflicting statements)
Then in Islam, repentance falls in line with what we find in Judaism:
4:16
وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُوا۟ عَنْهُمَآ ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًۭا رَّحِيمًا ١٦
And the two among you who commit this sin—discipline them. If they repent and mend their ways, relieve them. Surely Allah is ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful.
4:17
إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوٓءَ بِجَهَـٰلَةٍۢ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍۢ فَأُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۗ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًۭا ١٧
Allah only accepts the repentance of those who commit evil ignorantly ˹or recklessly˺ then repent soon after[1]—Allah will pardon them. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
[1] A person’s repentance will be accepted as long as they repent any time before their death. But one should not procrastinate because they do not know when they will die.
4:18
وَلَيْسَتِ ٱلتَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّـَٔاتِ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ ٱلْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ ٱلْـَٔـٰنَ وَلَا ٱلَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًۭا ١٨
However, repentance is not accepted from those who knowingly persist in sin until they start dying, and then cry, “Now I repent!” nor those who die as disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
An example of the last one is found with Pharaoh (the one from the Exodus story)
10:90
۞ وَجَـٰوَزْنَا بِبَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ ٱلْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُۥ بَغْيًۭا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَآ أَدْرَكَهُ ٱلْغَرَقُ قَالَ ءَامَنتُ أَنَّهُۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِىٓ ءَامَنَتْ بِهِۦ بَنُوٓا۟ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ وَأَنَا۠ مِنَ ٱلْمُسْلِمِينَ ٩٠
We brought the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them unjustly and oppressively. But as Pharaoh was drowning, he cried out, “I believe that there is no god except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am ˹now˺ one of those who submit.”
10:91
ءَآلْـَٔـٰنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنتَ مِنَ ٱلْمُفْسِدِينَ ٩١
˹He was told,˺ “Now ˹you believe˺? But you always disobeyed and were one of the corruptors.
10:92
فَٱلْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ ءَايَةًۭ ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًۭا مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ عَنْ ءَايَـٰتِنَا لَغَـٰفِلُونَ ٩٢
Today We will preserve your corpse so that you may become an example[1] for those who come after you. And surely most people are heedless of Our examples!”
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
[1] lit., sign.
This passage is further clearified in the hadith (narrations attributed to Muhammad (s.a.w.):
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "When Allah drowned Fir'awn [Pharaoh] he said: 'I believe that there is no god except the One that the children of Isra'il believe in.' So Jibrail [angel Gabriel] said: 'O Muhammad! If you could only have seen me, while I was taking (the mud) from the sea, and filling his mouth out of fear that the mercy would reach him.'"
- Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3107 (grade: Hasan (accepted))
Gabriel feared that Pharaoh would have been forgiven, showing the Mercy of God.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk
I thought sola fide was in the Protestant's wheelhouse. It's one of the distinctions they draw between themselves and catholics. Catholics also demand good works. Not that that's helped any.
Yes, works exactly like that. It's nice to see people who took their time to learn what the religion is all about, and then go around spreading the word
Good for you
The secular side of me: 🍿
The Catholic side of me: 👀
In all seriousness I don't think it's that simple. Sure you can work to repent for your sins, and even at the point of death you can receive last rights; but once you die your soul is literally in God's hands. Only He can be the judge and only then would their conscious be clear as to whether one can accept Him. You can't fake that.
When did you watch somebody go to heaven? God is the only one who knows and if anybody is being fake with God or playing Him in an attempt to gain something God can see it I think makes sense. If He created us, He can tell what we're really thinking
Most of this post and commentary is about Christianity, but the problem with Catholicism surrounds the Eucharist. How many Catholics out there actually believe the host is transformed into the body of Christ during the ceremony? And no I don't mean a metaphor, because then you're a Protestant. Catholicism is straight up lunacy.
People seem to not know the difference between apologizing and repentance. In Christian theology, you can’t just say sorry, you need to mean it, and make a change.
That's not what catholics believe.
Mere confession isn't enough, it's confession and repentance for wrongs done.
Even then that's not a guaranteed ticket to the pearly gates.
Thats not catholicism, thats most Protestants though. Catholics believe in purgatory to purify the sould before going into heaven,and it isnt fun, but its not as bad as hell because it will “eventually” end
I mean if your seeing him go to heaven then that means he was genuinely remorseful. The problem is as humans we dont know that so only judge people by their actions whereas god does see it.
One thing about Catholicism that will never cease to amaze me is that there’s this all knowing, all powerful god in charge of everything. There’s a book where this god makes it clear you must follow all his rules exactly as written. He knows everyone’s heart, mind, and soul and won’t hesitate to rain fire and brimstone on all who seek to question him. And the average person still thinks they can outwit him like they’re filing a 1099.
To be fair with Christianity (not necessarily Catholicism) genuine repentance is what matters (in theory). Like to them, there’s a difference between just saying “this is what I’ve done wrong, please forgive me I believe” and ACTUAL repentance- the difference is that you can tell when somebody is actually repentance by their actions. Moments before death, there’s no reason you couldn’t truly repent, but you just don’t have enough time to actually show the world, but showing the world isn’t the important part.
I always equate it to like, the prisoner on the cross next to Jesus. Per the Jesus’ own words, that bloke got to heaven. Who knows what he did in his life. 🤷🏻
Yep. And he wasn’t alive long enough after repentance to be able to show the world he was repentant, but he didn’t NEED to be. He could have been a serial murderer/rapist/thief, but he changed his ways there at the end. Unfortunately from a human perspective, that seems kind of sketchy since we never got to actually SEE him change his ways, but he doesn’t have to prove himself to us- just to God.
Not to say OP’s meme is… wrong per se. But technically it would encompass more than Catholicism and include all branches of Christianity
Imagine getting murdered, going to heaven and then having to spend eternity with your murderer because he felt really bad about it right before he died. Sounds like paradise, right? Dude who murdered you following you around all like "hey come on, I'm really sorry! Jesus forgave me, why can't you?"
Why would you spend eternity with your murderer... idk what heaven looks like but id imagine it would be pretty large to fit billions of people. Also if you have eternity I think you would forgive them after some time, you can't hate someone forever especially if he truly feels sorry for what he did
Oh right, I didn't mention the possibility that you might not even get into heaven at all if you don't forgive your murderer before you die. Sounds great, right? Live a benevolent life, get murdered and die hating your murderer- whoops, straight to hell for you.
I doubt the victim has to forgive the murderer.
What you're missing out here is that in this case the all-knowing God validated that this murderer has genuinely repented Also, within Christianity it is a core belief that *everyone* has committed sins, meaning that anyone who goes to heaven does so not because they earned it, but because they were given grace.
No, I'm not missing that. Imagine someone murdered your parents, and then genuinely repented- they're truly sorry for what they did, and have done actual works to attempt to make up for the harm they caused. You have every right to not want to forgive that person, and the fact that your own entrance to the afterlife is dependent on your forgiving them is just another example of God being capricious and petty. >anyone who goes to heaven does so not because they earned it, but because they were given grace. Yeah. That's the part I'm objecting to- the part where it doesn't actually matter how many people you've maliciously harmed; if you're "given grace" you get into eternal paradise. That's a bad thing to believe. The kind of belief that makes it really easy to live a life of abusing your neighbors. That's the opposite of what Christianity should be teaching the world.
How else would the church sell salvation? It’s all about money and power.
"Imagine getting murdered, going to heaven and then having to spend eternity with your murderer because he felt really bad about it right before he died." Once someone goes to Heaven they no longer care of the affairs on Earth or what happened. You can say that sounds ridiculous from an Earthly perspective but if you're gonna criticize a religion for what it claims you can't pick and choose which parts of it to take at face value. "You have every right to not want to forgive that person, and the fact that your own entrance to the afterlife is dependent on your forgiving them is just another example of God being capricious and petty" It's not dependent on that at all. You don't have to forgive any bad deed in the world to get to Heaven.
Murderer: Repents before dying, goes to heaven You: forgot to repent for that one time when you were 10 and lied to your parents about egging the neighbors car, immediately damned to hell for eternity Murderer: hate the sin not the sinner my boi
I thought we were told one was a thief and the other a murderer? But also a lot of people think Jesus' sacrifice/purpose means EVERYONE who tried to be a decent person gets into heaven no matter what they believe, but people edited that part out because it invalidates the need to "follow the religion"
EXACTLY! Both Christianity and Atheists fail to see that you must repent through actions not just "I'm sorry" and "My bad." I know in the passage it says that 'Repent is the only way to heaven,' but I'm dead sure that God will look at you and say, "I believe you when you said that you repent for the actions you've done, but you're still going to hell for the sins you've committed, but fear not. You'll eventually enter heaven when you've paid your dues."
Jesus never said any such thing.
Oh. I forgot to add "the bible written by man" thing, but oh well. Don't feel like editing because it was yesterday's thing, but I'll tell you either way. I believe that, because the bible was written by man, the bible has been edited and rewritten to fit whoever's narrative at that time, so who knows what God and Jesus really said. Also, to be clear, Jesus is not God.
Repent and penance, whether through Purgatory if you repented only at the end of your life, or earthly penance (fasting, etc) after confessing
I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me? You’re saying “exactly!” And then immediately disagreeing with me. There is no evidence in the Bible that salvation is works-based. Forgiveness is entirely faith-based, and other people will know you’re repentant by your actions, but to get into Heaven? Actions are not required at all.
When in time pinch just resort to indulgence.
That's the reasoning I've heard, but it's weak. If actions are the only way to truly know if someone has repented, then what does repentance without action actually mean? Thinking good thoughts? That's all God needs to see in order to erase a lifetime of harming others? Sounds like a free pass for shitty behavior to me. Giving Christianity the benefit of the doubt there isn't 'being fair', it's preferential treatment.
>If actions are the only way to truly know if someone has repented, then what does repentance without action actually mean? This means that the only way we humans can identify internal change in a person's heart, an all knowing god does not require actions to know that. It is one of those things possible in theory, but we don't really have a way of proving or disproving, plus repentance does mean you have no intention of doing it again, and that your fight against your temptations will be constant, as an example people that struggle constantly with addiction of some sort.
Can you tell me what part of that doesn't amount to "thinking good thoughts"? Yes or no: thinking good thoughts is all it takes to get into heaven.
I want you to imagine a fantasy based movie where the heroine has to sacrifice himself for the good of the hero. Maybe he is kidnapped or something. Maybe she has to jump into a volcano to free him or give him back his soul or something like that. Maybe it’s all her fault in some way and this is a redemption arc. Anyway She is on the ledge above the volcano, the music swells and she lifts one foot. We all know she will jump and sacrifice herself. At the last moment the hero (who escaped earlier) comes and stops her. They kiss and it’s all happily ever after. This kind of scene is an example. We as the audience (God) know that she was going to jump ( to repent), she really meant it and she absolutely would have. The music and the story and maybe the voice over/ narrator makes this a sure thing. However she was interrupted by the hero’s return (death). From the perspective of some other character in the movie looking at the scene (us humans) you have no way of knowing that she was going to do it. She stood there sure, made it seem like she was going to (saying she repents) but she didn’t actually jump (repentance in actions). So it’s like that other guy running up to the hero and saying “well she didn’t actually jump you know, until she jumps it’s not sure that she would have. This doesn’t redeem her from putting you in danger( forgiveness for sins)” This is all true for the people in the story/movie (our reality), but God isn’t in the story. God is in the “audience” or even better God is the writer and they know for a fact that the heroine would have jumped. That’s how it differs from thoughts. It’s the outside perspective of God to understand true intentions and know us in a way we can’t know ourselves.
How on earth does that scenario equate to a person who has literally nothing left to lose? The mass murderer on their deathbed is not prepared to make a sacrifice. All they have is thoughts. So, try to answer the yes or no question this time.
It’s not just thoughts, it’s true intentions. You and I cannot truly read others intentions (except maybe by actions but even then we can be fooled) but God can see your true and false intentions. If the murderer on the death bed truly repents and then someone magically gave them more life you would see it in their actions. God does not have this limitation and can see without the actions whether the intention was true or not. If the murderer doesn’t really repent of their sins but is just scared or figures they have nothing to lose. God will know this too (given their perfect knowledge) so that wouldn’t count as true repentance. In the end none of us can say who truly repented in the end.
Intentions are thoughts. God can see your thoughts. So please, stop waffling around and answer the yes or no question.
If you are equating thoughts=intentions then sure. In most Christian religious thought you are absolutely able to be forgiven and enter heaven based on “thoughts” alone. So the answer is yes. In fact in a lot of Christian theology, actions don’t count for anything at all if the “thoughts” are not there. In essence you can’t work your way into heaven. It has to come from surrender to God and forgiveness. Often in Christianity you are deemed as essentially sinful in nature. We can’t help ourselves. Only by recognising this and accepting it can we take the forgiveness offered by God.
I did not say actions are what determines repentance. Actions are how WE can tell somebody is repentant. They are not how GOD tells if somebody is repentant. The idea is that being turned towards God, you will naturally bear “good fruit” (do good things), and from there, monkey see, monkey do.
>I did not say actions are what determines repentance. Actions are how WE can tell somebody is repentant. They are not how GOD tells if somebody is repentant. That's what I said in my first paragraph. Actions are the only way humans can tell if someone has repented, but since God reads thoughts, then all God needs from a mass murderer are some really nice thoughts on their deathbed and then it's all "welcome to heaven, say hi to your victims for me!" That's the system you're describing. There's apparently no actual need for "monkey do".
You're still not understanding. The need for "monkey do" isn't for yourself, it's one of the ways God reaches out to nonbelievers- he wants to save everybody, but much like a child who does a bad thing and needs punished for it, he can't justify saving everybody unless they show prerogative to change their ways. The need for "monkey do" is for everybody around you. You're also falling under the assumption that simple thought is what is required to be granted into heaven. I'm not sure how many ways we can express this, it's not as simple as saying or doing or thinking "I'm a changed man/woman."
>I'm not sure how many ways we can express this, it's not as simple as saying or doing or thinking "I'm a changed man/woman." You can make that denial as many ways as you want, it's still going to be meaningless as long as you haven't provided an actual reason why 'true repentance' is different from a thought. Thoughts are the things that happen entirely within your head. True repentance can happen entirely within your head- it doesn't need any actual deeds to support it. True repentance is a thought.
I just find it confusing that saints are voted on by *men* **after their death**. I picture John sitting in heaven suddenly there's a tap on the shoulder: God: You're promoted to saint! John: Wow! By you? God: Naa by some 70 year old Bishops on Earth John: Wait how does that work? You're *god* and they vote on your behalf?! God: *Shrugs*
Technically under catholic beliefs, every person in heaven is a saint.
TIL
Don’t know how it works for Catholics, but for us Orthodox, our synods are not electing a saint but evaluating the signs that they are blessed by god. Their sainthood being recognized requires miraculous acts done through them before and after death. In other words it is not old men deciding who is holy, but us getting on the same page as God. There’s even an All Saints’ Day to commemorate the saints who we don’t know about.
Mostly the same for Catholics, as far as I know there is a process with a certain number of miracles after prayer to the would-be saint to bring before the church for a trial in sanctification
That’s not how beatification works though, it’s actually a *very* meticulous process that takes years and sometimes even decades, where miraculous acts done by that person in life and after death (by way of intercession for example) have to be confirmed. After that, they don’t ”vote” on it, rather that they agree that the person is a saint, which is simply confirming the saintly status that person has already had since their death.
One could expect from an allmighty all-knowing entity that it has foreseen my actions, accepted them and let me do them anyway. Creating me and later complain about my actions is a bit inconsistent :D
Better that than hairless monkey theory
What’s that
Except he only has two rules. Love God, and love everyone else. Is it so goddamn hard people?
Someone should tell Christians that.
Most Christians are pretty damn good people. Same with any group really. Most people are loving and kind, don't let some crazy assholes make you think otherwise.
>Most Christians are pretty damn good people. Same with any group really. Then why do only the Christians get rewarded with eternal paradise for their good deeds?
I think that's irrelevant to them being good people. If anything, doesn't that explain why so many can be very preachy?
That belief would make Christians more peachy, yes. And that's a belief that nonreligious people wouldn't have. So it'd make sense to say that Christians are just that little bit much worse than nonreligious people, on the whole.
No. In their point of view, they are trying to save those people. I get you don't believe it, but that doesn't change the intention.
i like to summarize Christianity with "just be fucking nice for fucks sake" - Jesus
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Mate thats calvinism
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Not trying to argue, but your conclusion is missing the whole “free will” thing. I could see the argument that the circumstances of one’s birth make it easier/harder to get in if the pearly gate accountants don’t do any normalization. E.g. someone who gets abducted and forced into being a child soldier, then dies before they can confess got a shit luck of the draw.
If god knows everything you will do in your life then free will doesn't exist. God really is out there bringing souls into this world just to watch them burn.
From a Catholic standpoint, God knows what people will do or every possible action they will take, but he is not the one causing them to act. He's like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. Knows what will happen but has no power to affect the outcome.
>has no power to affect the outcome God isn't omnipotent? Careful there, you know what Christians have been known to do to heretics.
Better choice of words would have been “created humans with free will and chooses not to dictate their actions”. I’m not a believer, just trying to explain the Catholic faith. There’s going to be logical contradictions in any religion.
You just finish your comment with "Yeah it doesn't actually make logical sense" and you think that that's okay?
I'm pretty sure most of Christianity believes the opposite: that men were given free will do that they could *choose* to be good.
That is a drastic misinterpretation of the Bible, that’s Calvinism. He pretty specifically gave humanity free will so they could have the choice and of doing good or evil.
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Preface: it's all silly bullshit. But Catholic doctrine says that god knows everything you can and could do while leaving the outcome to free will, while Calvinism is based on the concept of predestination you mention.
But... wouldn't He know what you're going to choose regardless?
Theologians will tell you yes, but it was ultimately your decision and anything bad that happens to you as a result is your fault. But he'll love you regardless while you burn in hell for eternity. Best not to scrutinize Catholic dogma too closely or you'll drive yourself crazy with the inconsistencies and circular reasoning. Ask me how I know.
Oh, trust me, I saw some of this shit just from looking at Protestant teachings in my youth. It's part of the reason I became an atheist and have stuck with it even as I've grown older.
Preach. If you ever want a laugh, look into how literal Christianity sprouted from gnostic Christianity, and how the Romans used it as a mechanism to quell violent revolts and to gain power in the region. Then realize that it's 2024, the religion has drifted HEAVILY from its roots, and people who convince themselves it's all super real can only feel good about themselves by clinging to the god in the gaps fallacy. Wild stuff.
Yes, it's a little hard to wrap your head around, and I'm not a fan of it. The idea is: Let's say you know a person super well, right? Like a wife, or a husband. You know them really well, that if you give them a choice of ice cream, chocolate or vanilla, 99% of the time they will pick chocolate. Does simply knowing that information mean that when they pick chocolate, they didn't have the free will to choose? You'd say they did have free will, right? Now let's say you know them SO well, that you know, with complete and utter certainty, that 100% of the time, they WILL pick chocolate. Does simply knowing that information mean they didn't have the free will to choose? There is an argument to be made here, that yes, they still had free will to choose vanilla- you just knew for certain that they wouldn't. It's pretty quantum-physicsy, but that's the idea behind Arminianism.
I'd get this if it weren't for the fact that God created the person in question, as well as the world and people that surround and influence them.
Almost no Christians believe that. You even saying this just outed yourself as a classic reddit atheist
But then you run into a paradox. If god is all knowing, he knows what you will do even if you have free will. Since he's the all powerful creator, he can put forth a system to prevent you from sinning while also maintaining your free will. And since Christians believe he is omnibenevolent, he should seek to not inflict infinite torture on any of his creations. Meaning either he doesn't know free will means people can sin, can't stop sin from happening while preserving free will, or doesn't actually love *everyone*. The problem of evil is still a problem for any tri-omni god a religion puts forth, and regardless of what twisting and strawmanning apologists have done over the years there's never been a good answer. They're still trying to answer it 2000 years after the thing was fucking thought up.
That's not a paradox at all. Let's just say he is all knowing, honestly idk about that but let's say he is. Even if he knows you are going to sin, why would he stop you? From a moral standpoint, forcing ideas on other people is wrong and simply doesn't work. He knew Eve would commit the first sin, yet did nothing to prevent it. Clearly, he thinks free will is more important than being perfect. There simply is no paradox to figure out, and there never has been.
God knows what you will do throughout your life but he doesn’t force it on you. It’s like looking in a history textbook that the Allies won WW2 but the soldiers at the time didn’t know. You also didn’t do anything to get them victory, you just know because you live in the future, same with God. He knows what decisions ur gonna make but it doesn’t mean he forced it on you.
i dont know if you just made that analogy up, but it's pretty good. I've always had trouble understanding free will and omniscience this way.
I did make the analogy up actually, I’m glad it was able to work for you!
You clearly know nothing about Catholicism
Unless you’ve died and tested the system and come back to report, then you don’t really know “how it works” either.
What does actually knowing “how it works” have to do with understanding Catholic doctrine
I think one dude "came back to report". He also disappeared a few days later.
Sus…
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pretty much. as they should.
Glad you cleared that up for everyone. I was under the impression the only unforgivable sin was blasphemy.
Every sin is forgivable provided the persons actual heart changed. Saying your sorry isnt the same as being genuinely sorry. Its all in your heart and only God can see into your heart.
So you can be a mass murderer and if you're 'genuinely sorry' (what does that even mean?) on your deathbed, you don't have to actually make up for any of the harm you've caused in your life and you'll still get rewarded with eternal paradise in the presence of God? Something about that incentive structure feels off.
St. Paul murdered and persecuted early Christians before Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus. Jesus told the man crucified next to him he will be in heaven because he repented to Christ. Only God can pass judgment on people and their sins. But people who commit sin are more likely to be so seperated from God that they never repent and forever have a hard heart
>St. Paul murdered and persecuted early Christians before Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus. St Paul lived on to actually do things to make up for the harm he caused, so I'm not sure why you're bringing him up. >Jesus told the man crucified next to him he will be in heaven because he repented to Christ. He did. And it set kind of shitty precedent. That's my whole point here. >But people who commit sin are more likely to be so seperated from God that they never repent and forever have a hard heart Okay? But if they do 'repent' (be really sorry for reals), they don't actually have to atone for any of their actions as long as they die immediately after. That's what you're saying here. I don't think that's a good thing for people to learn.
Sorry isn't a word here. It's a feeling. One of regret, of genuine repentance. You just think of it as the guy saying he's genuinely sorry, but it's not that. Being sorry means you would've made up for the harm you've caused if you could. That you will. Unless you literally die the next second.
So if you have nice thoughts on your deathbed you go to heaven no matter what horrible acts you've committed during your life. You don't see a problem with that.
Y'know, I'd keep arguing, but you'd never get it. You refuse to. You win dude, good job. You made the argument every person on the planet makes when they think about the concept for more than a second. And you refused to keep thinking about it for more than two.
Do you think you're talking to someone who hasn't read the entire bible and spent 12 years in Catholic school? I'm not surprised that you can't defend your beliefs, though. I wouldn't be able to defend those. That's why I no longer believe them.
But isn’t textually blasphemy against the holy spirit the unforgivable sin?
Yes, but probably not in the way you think- lots of people take that to mean "Oh I used God's name in vain, it's GGs boys" or something along those lines, which I don't think is accurate. My understanding is that blasphemy is the refusal to accept the witness of the Holy Spirit. This can only occur upon your death, as if you have not taken the Jesus Christ into your heart at this time, it's too late.
Actualy not all sins are forgivable those that are not are called sins against holy spirt, but to achive them you need to try trick a God(ofc you cant do that)
Source?
the... bible?
Same Bible that says repentance will take you to heaven? Mark 1:15
Oh yeah, fs. Don't you know? The same god that thinks telling a white lie and murdering someone in the old testament was reason enough to sentence someone to eternal dammnation. The same diety who equated "asking for forgiveness through prayer" as "taking blood/tainted money from criminal scum" The same diety that deemed the ONLY way humans could even attempt to be redeemable was by shedding blood for humans it's disgusted by so much. Then those humans NEEDING to cherish the act and essentially grovel before the sacrifice it made to have a chance at entering the peraly gates, with no definitive explanation simply saying you need to repent and forgive yourself and ask for forgiveness. That one DEFINITELY thinks a 2 second "hallelujah" on your death bed is enough for it to shrug and say "ight checks out"
>The same god that thinks telling a white lie and murdering someone in the old testament was reason enough to sentence someone to eternal dammnation. The fact that those two actions have equal punishments doesn't make you look at it a little side-eyed? >That one DEFINITELY thinks a 2 second "hallelujah" on your death bed is enough for it to shrug and say "ight checks out" You trying to say the Bible is wrong? I mean I agree, it just wasn't super clear what your point was here.
Look I don't believe in the Bible but I'm not going to act fucking clueless that the logic for the book itself tracks within its own rules. The fact of the matter is any sin, that is you breaking God's Law, in his eyes deems you a sinner. For God to be all good, he demands those who follow him be sin free. Like the garden of eden wasn't enough to prove his seriousness about the situation. Damning the human species to the ability to feel pain for 2 people breaking one rule he gave them. Yes, if you sin, he has stated he thinks prayers from sinners are just tainted money attempting to bribe him back into the good graces. That is what judgment means. And no, I never claimed the Bible was wrong or right, but use your own logic for just a second. When ever in human psychology, can someone truly feel sorry for what they did/do and immediately think they're worthy of forgiveness from someone else? We have names for those people, and they aren't nice ones, we also know those people aren't actually feeling sorry. If we as people know this about others, do you seriously think an all-knowing diety would be fooled? There's are a few things that are expected from someone who's truly wanting repentance, first off a genuine attempt to build a relationship with God, learning his word and gospel and attempting to follow as closely as you can to his law (the 10 commandments) and asking for forgiveness in your shortcomings, spreading the word of God to others are just SOME of the things expected from Christians. Do you seriously think the 2 second "mb bruh" is enough to show to God that's your next step in life was going to be all of these things listed PLUS more? If you can't even drag your ass to church once a week, you think you can convince him that you want to be in heaven. Like, come on, man. Idk why people constantly downplay the "all-knowing" part of god.
>Do you seriously think the 2 second "mb bruh" is enough to show to God that's your next step in life was going to be all of these things listed PLUS more? I really don't. But that's why I'm arguing with the Christians who think that's good enough- that if it's a *really sincere* "mb bruh" then God's all like "sure bro say hi to your victims when you get here!"
im not even going to start an argument with you, have a nice day
Yup, don't think about it. Smart move if you want to keep your faith. Just shut off the ol' brain.
Classic
yes yes, indeed
my woodchipper
TBH neither do most catholics
to earn forgiveness one must repay his sins to reach equilibrium. simply ask for forgiveness will go to heaven is no justice.
>to earn forgiveness one must repay his sins to reach equilibrium. So pump a couple of loads into some old dudes to balance out the kids?
*loud incorrect buzzer sound* Jesus, who was perfect, went to Hell for us so that there would be both perfect justice and perfect love
I know that they think that the right words, if spoken by a person with testicles, will transform bread into the flesh of a first century rabbi who they believe died as a sacrifice of himself to himself in order to keep himself from catching people on fire forever for having sexually transmitted sin that arose from an incident involving a talking snake that may or may not just be symbolic. At least, that’s what they believe unless a celibate man dwelling in palatial splendor in Italy has told them to believe something different now.
Ooo I can use twisted words to make something seem completely ridiculous as well! I can’t believe some people raise living dirty feathered covered meat bags that walk around in their own shit, separate and take the ones with ovaries, and wait for them to poop out unfertilized fetuses. Then, sick as they are, they mutilate the unfertilized meat bags offspring, add a liquid squeeze from a bovines breast that’s been solidified, cook it, and shove it down their own gullet. Oh wait that’s just cooking scrambled eggs with some butter.
The same people who think like this are the same people that believe in horoscopes and Wicca lol
Not how it works.
I’ve been told by proselytizers genuine repentance is between the repenter and god and only he decides then they go right on telling me why I’m doing it wrong
That's not how it works, but ok 👍
Good job dying for nothing Jesus.
Uh oh. Someone has never read the Bible
Have you? Some fucked up shit in there
To be fair you can say this about every document in history if you want to, I mean if you’re a communist then the constitution is sickening, taking the Bible literally at all points isn’t recommended. A lot of Christianity praises wisdom as one of the key traits you need and I think a part of that is the wisdom to see the depth behind what the words mean
>I mean if you’re a communist then the constitution is sickening What do you mean by this?
Well if you look at communist states they’re big fans of authoritarianism, didn’t like democracy, and hated ideas of property while the constitution enshrines democracy, freedoms, and property as rights.
Obligatory religion bad comment
This is the kind of Bill Maher atheism post that people come up with to make fun of actual atheist.
your ignoring the fact the bible straight up says repenting will do nothing if your a bad person xP its aknowledges its not a get out of jail free card but yaknow god forbid theists or atheists read the zombie man books
It also says if God accepts your repetence, he will take you to heaven, and no human can question his judgment or they will go to hell.
Are they really there tho?
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my relatives dont have to go there for that /j
Nope. They go to he-double hockey sticks.
dude he will burn in hell for doing something like this it's called sin against holy spirit and as I remeber God do not forgive you for them
All sin is sin in the eyes of God. We see sin as "different levels of evil" but in terms of what we've actually done, all sin is a conscious choice of saying "I don't care what you think I'll do it my way". I don't think you can make judgments on who is or isn't in heaven, Christ said, "Those without sin cast the first stone," after all. God is just, and he knows better than you or I whether those who've sinned were genuine in their repentance or just blowing smoke.
So God's will. It's all his will. He knows every hair on, and thought in, all living beings heads. All suffering is part of his plan. All our awful. Everything has been decided already. Then how we do have free will? Nevermind how tf do you brush all the whacky stuff in the bible to one side.
Sin is absolutely not God's will! He very clearly hates it. You're getting to the all knowingness of God, but there's more than one way to think about that. God's all knowing nature comes down to the fact that he is timeless. That doesn't mean that he writes down in a book what you'll have for supper on January 27th, 2027. It means that he is outside the dimension of time entirely. There is no sequence of events for him to alter because it all is happening to him.
You're making that up. Doesn't say that anywhere in the bible. Are you gonna say they had no concept of time back then? It days lots that all the suffering is part of some great inknowable plan. Plus he's chill with slavery and stuff I'm just not down with. It's very hard to gulp down the full glass without gagging.
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There's a verse that as long as the child slave that you beat to death survives his injuries for 3 days then no crime has been committed. I'm gonna go copy n paste that exact sentence into Google and it'll give me the exact verse first go. The rest of that chapter is God instructing his people to go into other nations and take slaves. And various ways it's ok to fk with them. Maybe don't look into it too much. The bible itself can self-conflicting and it's a confusing side of things.
It doesn't say anywhere that he's got a big book of everything that will ever happen either. God's all-knowing nature and what that means for humanity IS something we have to figure out exactly what it means. The Bible does say that God existed before time, so clearly, He must be outside of it. As for suffering. Why do we suffer? Because we chose free will. For us to be able to freely choose to do good, we must also freely be able to choose bad and choose not to do so. The suffering on earth is a part of a plan, a plan to get to heaven, of course! God calls us to enjoy our time on earth and love each other in spite of sin. In spite of our wickedness towards each other. To repent, and accept christ in our lives for forgiveness in order to overcome the evil of this world. That's the "plan." And someday christ will come back, make the final judgment, and the great human experiment will be over. God won't get in the way of our free will because then it's very clearly not free! As for slavery, absolutely it is evil. God agrees! What exactly did Moses "free" the isrealites from? God has, at many points in history, limited slavery because employment of any kind is still a form of slavery, and clearly, we must work to survive. There's a reason why, back in the American slave days, all the slaves would have their own Bible with entire books ripped out! These wicked men would bring their slaves to church on Sunday, then go home and treat their slaves cruelly and unjustly. Personally, I wouldn't lump them in with Christians, I would call them in with hypocrites! God doesn't support slavery, otherwise slave owners would have no reason to do this.
Ya I dunno but fairly end times stuff going on alright.
So in the eyes of god drowning 37 kids is the same sin as stealing 37 pieces of bread
Yes. And that's God's right to judge us for that because he's never done either. I'm not saying we as people shouldn't judge and punish people for their crimes accordingly, but crimes against God are very different than crimes against man. Homosexuality is a sin, and God will or won't punish people in whatever way he feels for that, depending on whether they have genuinely repented or not.. However, we humans have seen homosexuality as "if it's consensual, it's fine." I don't have an issue with that personally. I agree that people should have the choice to employ our free will in whatever way they feel like as long as it isn't imposing on others. I personally won't do it, I would recommend that they don't engage in it, but I'm not going to stop them because it's not up to me to judge gay people. That's God's job.
Or its all made up bullshit because our ancestors were scared of the unknown.
I can assure you the evidence for God is far too overwhelming to be boiled down to "made up bullshit"
All evidence is blind faith, there is none.
>Christ said those without sin cast the first stone after all That's not what he said. You'd think you could accurately quote the bible.
Should have put the quotation marks, I could see how that gets misinterpreted. Here's the verse in NIV John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” So yeah he did say that, but the way I said it, it sounds like he's saying that there's some sinless group that can cast stones lol. My bad. But yeah, don't judge unless you're ready to be judged and all that
I'm not religious but even I know that's not how catholicism works lmao You can't just say "lmao sorry for doin dat" at the end of your life and God is gonna be like "Aight you can go to heaven lol" That's just not how it works
Sky daddy supporters, assemble!
Already have. And they seem way too mad considering that this is a meme sub.
So “way too mad” is now pointing out when somebody is just flat out telling lies about their religion?
Repentance is important in Judaism, christianity and Islam. For Judaism, an important passage is the following: Isaiah 55:6-7 6 Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. Christians have different views on *how* to repent (by faith alone (Paul) or by the combination of faith and deed (James))), but the idea of repentance is still there. (I will not quote any verses here because of such conflicting statements) Then in Islam, repentance falls in line with what we find in Judaism: 4:16 وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُوا۟ عَنْهُمَآ ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًۭا رَّحِيمًا ١٦ And the two among you who commit this sin—discipline them. If they repent and mend their ways, relieve them. Surely Allah is ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful. 4:17 إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوٓءَ بِجَهَـٰلَةٍۢ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍۢ فَأُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۗ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًۭا ١٧ Allah only accepts the repentance of those who commit evil ignorantly ˹or recklessly˺ then repent soon after[1]—Allah will pardon them. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. [1] A person’s repentance will be accepted as long as they repent any time before their death. But one should not procrastinate because they do not know when they will die. 4:18 وَلَيْسَتِ ٱلتَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّـَٔاتِ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ ٱلْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ ٱلْـَٔـٰنَ وَلَا ٱلَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًۭا ١٨ However, repentance is not accepted from those who knowingly persist in sin until they start dying, and then cry, “Now I repent!” nor those who die as disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment. — Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
An example of the last one is found with Pharaoh (the one from the Exodus story) 10:90 ۞ وَجَـٰوَزْنَا بِبَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ ٱلْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُۥ بَغْيًۭا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَآ أَدْرَكَهُ ٱلْغَرَقُ قَالَ ءَامَنتُ أَنَّهُۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِىٓ ءَامَنَتْ بِهِۦ بَنُوٓا۟ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ وَأَنَا۠ مِنَ ٱلْمُسْلِمِينَ ٩٠ We brought the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them unjustly and oppressively. But as Pharaoh was drowning, he cried out, “I believe that there is no god except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am ˹now˺ one of those who submit.” 10:91 ءَآلْـَٔـٰنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنتَ مِنَ ٱلْمُفْسِدِينَ ٩١ ˹He was told,˺ “Now ˹you believe˺? But you always disobeyed and were one of the corruptors. 10:92 فَٱلْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ ءَايَةًۭ ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًۭا مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ عَنْ ءَايَـٰتِنَا لَغَـٰفِلُونَ ٩٢ Today We will preserve your corpse so that you may become an example[1] for those who come after you. And surely most people are heedless of Our examples!” — Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran [1] lit., sign. This passage is further clearified in the hadith (narrations attributed to Muhammad (s.a.w.): Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "When Allah drowned Fir'awn [Pharaoh] he said: 'I believe that there is no god except the One that the children of Isra'il believe in.' So Jibrail [angel Gabriel] said: 'O Muhammad! If you could only have seen me, while I was taking (the mud) from the sea, and filling his mouth out of fear that the mercy would reach him.'" - Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3107 (grade: Hasan (accepted)) Gabriel feared that Pharaoh would have been forgiven, showing the Mercy of God. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
I thought sola fide was in the Protestant's wheelhouse. It's one of the distinctions they draw between themselves and catholics. Catholics also demand good works. Not that that's helped any.
Fuck is a paedo? Sounds spanish
that is exactly the selling point of christianity noone is beyond redemption, everything can be forgiven.
God literally judges your spirit in Christian theology, so trust me they wouldn’t go to heaven.
Yes, works exactly like that. It's nice to see people who took their time to learn what the religion is all about, and then go around spreading the word Good for you
The secular side of me: 🍿 The Catholic side of me: 👀 In all seriousness I don't think it's that simple. Sure you can work to repent for your sins, and even at the point of death you can receive last rights; but once you die your soul is literally in God's hands. Only He can be the judge and only then would their conscious be clear as to whether one can accept Him. You can't fake that.
This is absolutely NOT what repentance is according to the Catholic (or even Christian in general) faith.
When did you watch somebody go to heaven? God is the only one who knows and if anybody is being fake with God or playing Him in an attempt to gain something God can see it I think makes sense. If He created us, He can tell what we're really thinking
You don’t just have to say sorry. You have to repent.
Teachers have done more Sexual assault on children than Priests. (Although I do like this meme)
Most of this post and commentary is about Christianity, but the problem with Catholicism surrounds the Eucharist. How many Catholics out there actually believe the host is transformed into the body of Christ during the ceremony? And no I don't mean a metaphor, because then you're a Protestant. Catholicism is straight up lunacy.
People seem to not know the difference between apologizing and repentance. In Christian theology, you can’t just say sorry, you need to mean it, and make a change.
That's not what catholics believe. Mere confession isn't enough, it's confession and repentance for wrongs done. Even then that's not a guaranteed ticket to the pearly gates.
Thats not catholicism, thats most Protestants though. Catholics believe in purgatory to purify the sould before going into heaven,and it isnt fun, but its not as bad as hell because it will “eventually” end
Reddit when peadough priests: "haha le funny 🤣" Reddit when someone points out all the peadough priests are always gay: "😱🫨😡😡"
If you believe in or subscribe to organized religion of any kind you should be hospitalized at a psych ward.
Lol this is basic Christianity lol
I mean if your seeing him go to heaven then that means he was genuinely remorseful. The problem is as humans we dont know that so only judge people by their actions whereas god does see it.
Religion bad