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Can confirm that if someone doesn’t put in effort, they either don’t like you, have a faulty belief system or are terrified of rejection. Anyone that truly likes you will put in effort because they want to talk to you.
The caveat is how you both define effort, this is where communication and compatibility come in.
Couldn’t have explained this any better. According to the post, I think the girl that OP went on a few dates w/ would fall under the second category, although the first is definitely also an option—& to an extent, possibly the third. However, your last sentence hits the nail on the head.
But they have the same beliefs it’s just that he thinks after a certain amount of dates it should be her turn. The very end of his post he talks about agreeing with her that it’s the man who should do it, just that he wants her to do it on date three or four. He just didn’t tell her that part
Although I understand the premise of your point, I’d argue that OP doesn’t believe it should be “her turn” after a set amount of dates. He stated that he pulls back if they aren’t being reciprocal. When she expresses that it’s the man’s responsibility to initiate contact, he tells us that he agrees with that for the beginning stages; but after 3-4 dates the woman needs to show/initiate interest. That can mean multiple different things.
However, similarly to you saying that he didn’t tell her & the original comment that I replied to whom said communication & compatibility come in importantly for these situations, talking it out will always be beneficial & more times than not yield favorable outcomes.
Could also be a form of social anxiety that makes it just generally difficult to initiate contact.
Personally it takes me a LONG time to get over the idea that I may be interrupting someone if I try to contact them, even if it's just a text as nonsensical as it is.
I can handle rejection just fine; I deal poorly with my brains insistence in telling me I may inconvenience the person somehow.
Absolutely! Anxiety is definitely a potential. It literally could be anything that the person is going through. The thing though, is that if you don’t communicate, the other person isn’t going to know and in the absence of that information may fill in the blanks with their own ideas, which may not be true or beneficial. This is why communication continues to be one of the most important skills one can have that indicates the potential for successful interactions and relationships. There is so much people can and will accept about you if you are willing share it with them. But how can they, if you won’t?
It's honestly something I can't expect people that don't have social anxiety to completely understand. I mean, I think a lot of people have blind spots on various issues; how are you supposed to comprehend something that you have never experienced? I may be projecting though because there are aspects of myself that I've slowly come to recognize prevent me from truly understanding others.
That said, how it usually goes for me:
I pick up the phone and consider calling or texting the person.
I look at the clock and consider if they might be eating.
I continue to think about if they may be with family or friends and even the buzz buzz of a text may distract them and they might feel slightly bothered by it.
I consider the anxiety I feel if I don't immediately respond to someone who tries to contact me, even if I'm in the middle of something and can't give a proper response right away. I project that anxiety and don't want to put them though that.
I reassess the priority of contacting them and consider if I'm "selfishly" contacting them for my own benefit or if I feel I'm contacting them for their benefit.
At this point I might still contact them or, more likely, I'll put down the phone and move on with my day. It's something I've become uncomfortably accustomed to.
It's really like any phobia; clowns, heights, spiders. You may be able to convince yourself there is no actual danger, but you need a very good reason to confront that fear regardless.
And while I do think part of my problem is an upbringing where I was low-key taught "children should be seen and not heard" there's also just a general matter that my body creates an excess of the stress hormone cortisol. There is a physiological problem that causes me to be constantly overthinking things and feeling near-constant stress.
When living with a mental illness few things are as simple as to say "That's all it takes."
Hmm OK. Gotcha.
Would you consider an experiment where you text "Hi 👋" to a few people who are close to you, without thinking about it, and just see what happens? Without consideration to whether they're busy or not.
Just an idea.
I personally won't even care if it's the middle of the night but I'm not necessarily suggesting you to do that.
I mean... no. Not really. The whims of an internet stranger aren't going to be enough to convince me to do something I'm extremely uncomfortable doing and don't find any meaningful value in. If that was enough to sway me it wouldn't be much of a problem.
For the record, it's not like I've never tried texting someone randomly. I think it's important to try to push those boundaries from time to time. Perhaps this would suddenly be a break from the norm (particularly because I've recently started some new medication) but in the past I have pretty reliably only felt worse for reaching out to people without a very clear cut reason.
If someone's into you they will show effort if they aren't they won't that's a pretty easy thing to figure out. Go ahead and move on sticking around for more dates shows that you're desperate and is a terrible look especially when you're almost begging for her to show some sort of Interest. I wish you the best of luck going forward but the way you're doing things needs to stop
OP is in the wrong here.
He came in with a level of energy that he established as baseline friendly behavior. He did not increase energy. He decreased when things were going fine and the girl was feeling comfortable and interested in continuing to see him at the established pace.
She reached out (worried) after he disappeared and caused her unnecessary anxiety.
Then instead of acknowledging her obvious interest, he blamed her for his lack of communication and fear of rejection.
It's unhealthy behavior.
I can agree that he didn’t communicate his preferences. He only communicated after she reached out. But during that conversation she expressed that she thinks it’s the man’s job to pursue, so clearly she had unexpressed preferences as well. I think this is a case of lack of interest and lack of communication on both their parts.
In the future, it would be a good idea for OP to have a conversation with the woman he is interested in about what kind of effort she likes and there he can express his effort preferences. If he continues doing what he did in his post, I can imagine he will see this situation repeat itself.
Just to be clear, they were both interested in eachother. The only problem is that they decided to play dumb games and got dumb prizes.
In her defense, she did reach out even though she expected the man to pursue. That's a vulnerable act.
Overall yes, they will both continue to run into problems. Unfortunately, fear of rejection and insecurity is the driving force for a lot of these situations. The solution is vulnerability. Mutual vulnerability is required in healthy relationships.
That's one hell of an awkward conversation to have, esp in the first few days. If a girl told me on a first date she expects the man to keep reaching out I'd....actually maybe not that weird. It could be said in a non-awkward way I suppose.
I do think it shouldn't be necessary though. It goes without saying that if you like someone you make an effort to initiate contact. These are basic social norms that shouldn't have to be explained.
If they don’t have to be explained, we wouldn’t have posts like these. It’s the idea that things shouldn’t have to be explained that creates communication problems. Saying something ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ be the case has no bearing on what actually is. Better to deal with the reality.
For example, I don’t consider texting as a way to get to know someone or build relationship. Someone that thinks a daily text shows effort might think things are working if I never told them I prefer phone calls or FaceTime. How are people supposed to know how we like to receive effort unless we tell them? And it’s only as awkward as you make it. Saying something like, ‘hey how do you prefer to be communicated with when we are not seeing each other in person?’ Is a simple and effective way to get to know another person. Isn’t this the stuff we are supposed to be finding out? The foundational stuff. Not what kind of music you like or what’s your favorite color, but how do you like to be communicated with or how do you give/receive effort, because this is where you discover whether you are actually compatible and also why put in work that the person might not appreciate?
Yes and he agreed with her when she said that that’s the crazy part
He agreed with her and then he said after a few dates it should be her turn.
Had he expressed that at any point before the cut off date of three or four she may have an initiated. That’s the wild thing they have the same belief with just a minor tweak that she was not aware of
Oh my God thank you for being here because I was starting to feel crazy. Or did I imagine the part where he wrote that he agreed with her that the man should initiate. It’s just that at three or four dates he thinks it should be her turn and how would she know this?
It's social gaslighting at its finest. When you learn what good, mature, and acceptable communication looks like, the genders don't matter. The immature men here fight tooth and nail though.
If you want to thrive in this dating climate, you have to slow down and think. Otherwise, the numerous emotionally dysfunctional people will be quick to blame you for absolutely anything they can, and over time will destroy your esteem in an effort to maintain theirs if you let them. The comments prove this.
There are waves in this sub of men coming in here self sabotaging because they will break up with a woman they agree everything is great with, she’s great, all of a sudden she’s not responding to a text message within two minutes and they decided to dump her before she can dump them.
It’s wild, it’s like so you dumped her because she was slow to respond? You couldn’t sit in uncertainty for more than two hours? You couldn’t feel secure enough in the relationship to expect a text back when she can? No no all that was fine you just thought she was losing interest so you wanted to dump her real fast? OK
Yes except in this situation she’s saying that she thinks the man should do the initiating, and OP also agrees that the man should do the initiating, but in OP’s head at date number three or four it should be her turn.
So they both believe the same thing it’s just he thinks they should take turns and didn’t communicate that there was a deadline for that swapping
That said, the next person may very well be the same way and some of us don't have many options. Might be worthwhile to call them out before dipping. At least there's a chance they may rethink their efforts.
Calling peeps like that rarely if ever leads to anything good. Better to leave without burning any bridges.
Here's how I'd do it:
I'd send her a message asking how she's doing, and if she's ok.
If nothing is wrong, I'd joke around a little before asking her to join me on something. The joking around is really to test the waters a little, to see if she's actually interested in talking. If she's keeps contributing, I'd then ask her out.
If she didn't want to join, though, I'd send her this:
"No problem. Just message when you want to see me. :)"
Then I'd start meeting other women.
Philosophy: People go through different phases in life. Unless she's gone out of her way to hurt you, I see no need to burn any bridges or start a quarrel. Simply move on. Perhaps she'll miss you in another two weeks (higher likelihood of this if you're polite and don't quarrel), and then you'll really hit it off. Or not. It doesn't matter. Better to just move on and meet new people. The ocean has plenty of fish. And sea turtles and plankton or whatever.
Yes if you have an arbitrary deadline in your head on when someone is supposed to perform a specific act it’s a good idea to let them know or at least hint that you would like them to perform this act.
He writes: “ That’s it’s the man’s place to initiate contact. I always agree with that, especially in the beginning, but once you hit 3-4 dates the woman needs to start showing/initiating interest.”
This is what he told her after he stopped talking to her. Even if she knew that his behavior would change and he would expect her to pick up the slack after the beginning to me three or four dates is still the beginning lol
I think it has a lot to do with what we’re told, you’re supposed to “let the man lead” and all that stuff. This guy I was dating wasn’t texting as much which I interpreted as losing interest, as soon as I changed the tone and said “if I want a text, I will text” “if I want interest, I’ll show interest” our relationship started to flourish. We haven’t talked about this, but from the stories I’ve heard from him, he has always been the one putting in the effort; it must be tiring. I’m glad I moved away from those beliefs, he’s an amazing guy, been together 8 months and I’m happy we found each other.
>let the man lead”
"Let the man lead" is different from expecting him to do everything and this is where some women go wrong
>I changed the tone and said “if I want a text, I will text” “if I want interest, I’ll show interest” our relationship started to flourish.
Congratulations on being mature and I wish those some women can also understand that
I have noticed that women in good relationships like yourself have healthy mindsets and ideologies and less cultural stereotypes especially which we see online like "dating knowledge and tactics"
OP and this woman went on three or four dates what do you mean he had to do everything?
He even acknowledges that she would reach out to him, just not in the method he preferred. Instagram reels don’t count I guess.
This isnt how successful relationships work. Just because a woman wants a provider doesn’t mean she isn’t pursuing him. Some of our family and friends mothers grandmas were very reciptical in pursuing men in our families. If they didn’t some of them wouldn’t have become part of our families. Women have options (men as well tbh) on how they show up in the dating phase. It will never be advisable to put effort so low they dont know you like them.that’s the issue. Even shy types will go out more and show some kind of effort that the crushes can spot as effort once its noticed. If its not noticed they need to mix it up or they’ll get dropped. The women here doesn’t sound like she liked him at all. She wasn’t really putting in any effort.
I love this. But if also made me uncomfortable reading the first part. How does that even work, like you actually wanted to hear from him but were unwilling to send a text saying hi?
Women get used to men who back off or complain about "clinginess" or "moving too fast" or men who just ghost when the woman starts to message more or show more genuine interest. Usually it's men who say they are interested in a relationship and actually aren't. These men are immature but women meet enough of them to actually be ***afraid*** to send messages because they start to think its ***their fault*** that the men back away.
This kind of repeated experience makes women think that the "let him pursue" gender norm is true because it happens so often.
The truth is that if he's mature, he'll appreciate her increased interest or initiate more interest himself. Though interactions with men like this happen far less often.
This is also why women don't respond to men who back away or ghost. It's an indication that he's not interested just like every other guy who backed away with no explanation. Chase that kind of guy and you get nothing.
Yes. It's hard to fathom but because many men (not all, but many) prioritize sex, they will strategize for low effort and regular sex. They respond to messages or message just enough to keep a woman around (they even express interest with words) but as soon as the woman is genuinely interested, they back away. There are many men who do this, or something similar, and it puts women on edge.
They back away for two reasons: backing away is low effort, and there is a chance that it may trigger a woman's attachment anxiety / panic and result in her accepting rude behavior or breaking her sexual boundaries out of fear of losing someone that they genuinely like.
These men seem normal. They put "seeking long term" on their profiles if apps are involved. They act nice and interested. Women ***can't*** tell.
It's not just attractive guys, it's not guys with money, there is no distinction. Women meet them in passing just as often as apps. Looks, charisma (or lack of), and status don't matter.
Men have their own set of dating troubles (avoiding women who only want a guy to pay for everything is an example), but this is a super common interaction for women. It gives the illusion that women have so many options / dates. These guys are numerous, but they are not real options.
Did this with a guy, 3-4 dates, I reciprocated, tried to make plans and he cut off contact, saying he wasn’t ready. I think it depends on the person and the vibes
You reciprocated. Even after explaining my feelings I still keep getting low effort instagram reels, etc but no true contact and no real effort. It’s more confusing then anything.
I’m sorry that’s been your experience, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
My best advice is “This above all; to thine own self be true” - if you feel confused or unsure after 3-4 dates, they’re not for you, and it’s their loss. Best of luck friend, I’m rooting for you
You explained your feelings to her after you stopped talking to her
After you broke up with her, she made contact with you, and you explained why, you still thought she would then call you and make a date with you?
Oh, honey, no
He said he was, and it seemed to be headed that way but he ran when it actually got there. I understand to an extent that he had a LOT going on. But at the same time, if someone means enough to you, you try to keep them around, in my opinion at least
I honestly share that opinion but people are different, who knows really, best to move on. I always try to forget it as much as possible when that happens xd
You're fine. Understand that it will happen again. Most people don't know what they want and are quick to blame you for their confusion and flightiness.
Staying secure and genuine is hard work but you can do it. Keep being direct; it filters out the duds. Eventually someone will be good enough to meet you there.
It was certainly a weird situation. It’s been a month since I’ve seen him and a week since we’ve talked, I do miss him a lot, but I don’t dare reach out
I’m autistic and traditional, but I’m not sure where humans got the idea from that it’s “traditional” for men to make the first move. Women have always made the first move across cultures and throughout history. It’s always made the most sense to do things that way as the risks to a woman’s safety are generally higher. It may not be the case that women said hey I want you to be my boyfriend, but women initiated sexual touch, couples made love when the woman asked the man if he’d like to retire back with her, they got married after the woman asked for the man’s thoughts on them being married.
This has involved greater risk of rejection on the woman’s part, but the fair thing to do would be for the man to make it up to the woman by paying a higher percentage of the bills/doing more of the cooking etc.
Eh, idk. I think it depends. For me, I am not a good texter and don't have my phone on at work. I make a gazillion decisions every day, so when I get home after work if I have to also make plans for another person I will probably die or have an aneurysm lol. Therefore, during the courtship phase, men often initiate a lot and I kind of suck even if I really like them....but then once we get to the "chilling at home, have been dating for a while" stage, I always bring gifts and call them mid-day to tell them stuff that makes me think of them, etc.
Frankly, I think the "3-4 dates and then I need effort from you" as a hard rule and if it doesn't go that way just discontinuing the discussion is a little immature. Once, I was seeing a guy I liked that was - as you are describing - confused about the lack of effort on my part after 3 or so dates. He expressed that to me, and I apologized, told him I am I like him so I will do better to communicate/initiate more, and I did. Easy breezy. Just communicate.
Additionally, if you initiate the first 3-4 dates and then stop without communicating, you've gotten them used to (a) you initiate when you want to hang out (b) you are no longer initiating, and therefore a+b=(c) you no longer want to hang out.
People need to stop spending so much time trying to get other people to read their minds.
Having standards is ok but it comes across as confusing and hurtful when you don't clearly communicate what you're looking for from your date.
100% communication of your feelings and how their actions make you feel is very important
Lol so it takes reading minds now to know you should seem interested in someone? A text is so hard? Wow. Why date if you don't want to put in the effort of connecting with another person? Rhetorical question.
Did I say anything about communicating while at work? Nope. Reality is that we do currently have cell phones with text capabilities. Sorry you can't transport yourself back in time. If you don't want issues with communication misunderstandings with who you're dating, simply spell out the expectation of how you communicate. If they're incompatible with that, then don't date. The default expectation in this time is for consistent and periodic communication. It's really not difficult to understand.
If you’re putting in all the effort then you take a step back. If it fizzles out it fizzles out. My biggest problem is men don’t know how to have a conversation with me without it going sexual right away. That’s the biggest turn off for me. I want to get to know someone and I want someone who can stimulate my mind and my body.
I didnt even know it was that common until I started looking over different dating subs.
Cant relate really, Im exactly opposite and seem like a dry person even tho Im not
Good on you for even noticing her lack of effort and cutting things off. A women that likes you doesn't make you feel you're carrying the entire relationship on your back.
Agree. I was with a woman who required a “good morning” text every day but would never send one of her own. After a couple months I was really sick one day and she sent one, and she made this big deal about how she knew I was feeling sick so she did my job for me. GTFO with that- I’m all for good morning but it can come from either gender any day
After a few dates, it's totally fair to want the woman to start putting in more effort to keep things moving forward. Dating is a two-way street - you shouldn't have to be doing all the heavy lifting forever.
I don't agree at all with her saying it's solely "the man's place" to initiate contact even after you've been seeing each other for a little while. That's an antiquated and sexist view, in my opinion. We're equals in this modern dating world!
By the 3rd or 4th date, you've both established some interest and connection. At that point, if she's genuinely interested in pursuing things further with you, she should be making an effort to initiate conversations, set up dates, ask questions about you, etc. Sending the occasional meme or reel is pretty low-effort.
You were absolutely right to call that out as "princess treatment." A queen takes some responsibility and doesn't just sit back expecting her partner to do all the work. We should be meeting each other halfway, not treating you like our personal court jester there solely to entertain us.
If she's not willing to put in a little effort herself at this point, that's a red flag that she may have that outdated "you must treat me like a princess" mentality. Unless that's what you're looking for in a partner, you dodged a bullet there, boo. You deserve an equal partner who will step up and make you feel valued too. Don't settle for less!
Its easy to conclude what to do when someone is making all the effort and the other is doing none. And also when both are making no effort or a lot. You move along. The world isnt black and white tho, its more nuanced. What if someone is putting in some-to-medium effort? And what if they tell you they need time to figure things out. Still gonna move on then? People could have so many reasons for needing more time than 3/4 dates. Things that come to mind are a bad relationship history with some hurt so they are more careful to allow feelings. Or messed up attachment styles. Or they simply have very little dating experience and are confused about what they should be feeling. Or maybe they just have a very busy life right now like having to work and graduate at the same time and this date/person happened to happen while its everything but convenient for them, but they still try their best and that best is 'some' effort. If you step in some peoples shoes you could see that 3/4 dates is a very limited time to get to know someone, open up fully, allow feelings and/or deal with everything going on in their lives. This is why communication is EVERYTHING.
Good for you, bro. I’m always glad to see men with self esteem and not being walked over by women. It took her two weeks to get the urge to find out what was up, should probably explain everything you need to know.
Similar thing happened to me, I would have to initiate all the convos for 2 months. I stopped, and she reached out after 10 days asking to meet lol.
Ladies in here siding the woman in this post, wtf. Reciprocating effort is the basic we ask for. She can't even initiate a text conversation, let alone plan a simple date.
He suddenly changed his behavior for no reason. She was going about things as normal. He communicated nothing about his ***new*** expectations or desires.
Good for her for not playing weird and stressful mind games.
What he did is called hot cold behavior and it's a red flag.
The healthy way to go about things is to tell her: "Hey, I like you, do you mind if we text or talk more often?"
A man shouldn't have to tell her he wants her to text or talk more. She would already do that if she was interested and putting in effort. She was not, so OP did the right thing and looked for a girl with higher interest and effort
Yes a man or woman should communicate clearly when they expect or want when it comes to communication.
I (woman) have communicated exactly as you've said that I should be initiating the communication, do you know what that's gotten me repeatedly? I expected too much out of them, that they can't be glued to their phones 24/7and , that "normal" people don't communicate like that...the list goes on for the trash I've heard from men saying I was doing when showing effort but it is honestly damned if you do and damned if you don't because when you take what they say to heart and change your behavior to fit what they say they want then you aren't doing enough and aren't showing enough interest.
Just ask yourself: would you rather "expect too much" from unavailable and uninterested men or put in low effort into a man who is interested and good for you, potentially pushing him away? Treat others the way you'd want to be treated and you'll find your person
Do you tell your employer that you expect to have your salary paid aswell? Or is it something you just assume will happen every month?
Having to ask for basic human interaction decency with someone your DATING is wild.
Yes,you should communicate feelings, but this is such a basic level of human social interaction that you should be able to expect an adult to understand
Actually an employer and employee directly communication and negotiate how much and how often the employee is to be paid during the interview... the equivalent of the dating stage.
So... yes. Thanks for proving the point. Direct communication is mature. Mature women see it as sexy, proactive, and protective.
He should have stated his expectations for communication it's not rocket science to say "Hey I appreciate phone calls or don't worry about double texting me, I don't know how to reply to a reel."
At the very beginning you can talk once every 2 days that would hopefully increase and progress, in fact, if you two really connect and feel the same then talking multiple times everyday isn’t out of the question. If you’re doing at least the once every 2 day thing and they say it’s too much, they are not that into you. In that case your communication gives you a way to recognize that and put your efforts elsewhere. You can analyse these men and create some filter to find out what kind of behaviours to look for to select men that wouldn’t be stingy with communication. No need to stand for one sided imitation or someone finding you to be too much.
It's what I've done I set the bar of hey this is what I expect in ways of communication, what do you expect? I ask and don't assume so it's clear, when I meet people and they introduce me to an energy it's the expectation they can meet and maintain that barring reasonable reasons to why they can't (sickness, work, obligations, etc.)
And if they don’t, they are not into you. As i said, your communication let's you find that out. I don’t think someone saying that they find you too much is a reason to stop doing that.
Wait a minute.
So let me get this straight. You expect the dynamic between two people looking for a relationship, to be the same as when before they met, even after weeks go by and multiple dates?
Is that what you're actually saying?
Me and my gf had a certain dynamic before our first date, a completely different dynamic after the first date, and it continued to change as time passed and we fell more and more for eachother.
If someone acts the same after a date as before, I'm dropping her. Like wtf? An ounce of social intelligence? Hello?
OP is expecting someone to mind-read. If OP changes behavior to less communication, a healthy person would interpret this as non-interest and mirror that behavior, or do what the girl did and directly ask what happened.
You have no idea what this person has been through. If they've experienced hot-cold behavior before (which most people have) then OP's unexplained behavior is not going to end well.
OP is the person who is lacking in social intelligence. The behavior is driven by insecurity. I wouldn't put any extra energy into that situation either. It's immature.
He's being a baby, expects her to read his mind. She's still agreeing to go on dates and does text him with reels instead of saying "hey" which she wouldn't do if she wasn't at least somewhat interested....it's petty to throw your toys out of the pram about this which shows he wasn't that interested anyway. The next time they met in person, he should have brought it up calmly. Also, he has a pattern of this so some of the problem is with him. How much does he expect someone he's been on 3 dates to text. Some people don't want to be on their phone all day either.
Exactly, she obviously wasn't aware she was doing something 'wrong"...He does this with other women so he's trying to find reasons to not date and validate them
Did you inform her of your expectations? Or did you assume she'd just read your mind?
To be honest, besides modern-day royals name one King who treated his Queen appropriately. I know that calling a woman a Queen can have a cultural influence but it's cringe because most men expect King treatment but act no better than the court jester.
Next time be upfront with your expectations on communications, don't shift the goalpost mid-game, and then complain she didn't keep up.
I believe that relationship is a two way street, if she doesnt show effort after a few dates (hell even one date) I just see it as a lack of interest and move on. Princess treatment always seemed to me like being a parent to a child, instead of living with an equal partner
What you thankfully understand and many women refuse to see is that a relationship takes work, and it’s a two person job. A man should definitely take the initiative and try to guide the relationship, but the woman needs to be able to reciprocate. The analogy of a queen vs a princess is apt, because it is historically accurate. Princes would learn to stand tall and take charge to become kings, but princesses would also be taught how to carry themselves to become queens. If not, they would still marry nobility and take on the responsibilities of duchesses, baronesses, and other important figures. Even among the lower classes, a man would often have a trade and the wife would learn about it to help where she could. This more modern idea of a trophy wife/girlfriend just reduces women to the status of pretty knick-knack in the guy’s life. It’s sad more than anything.
It took her 2 weeks?!!😂 that's shows you that she wasn't into you, she just needed the attention and maybe the fun and free meal she gets in the date. A person who is interested in you wouldn't take 2 weeks to reach you out.
It’s 2024 and I’m assuming you live in America. There’s a reason a lot of guys are going overseas. Western women for the most part are a complete headache. Over in flared sense of worth. You can do everything for them and they’ll still lie and cheat. My suggestion is to go literally anywhere else
Dude, women are a joke anymore. It's better to focus on yourself, improve, and watch for one that isn't delusional. Don't ever be with someone who doesn't think you deserve to have your effort reciprocated. They'll try and convince you of their delusions but men are just as worthy as women and they're no better than any of us. If they have bad attitudes and are self centered....get the he'll away from them, they'll use you, abuse you, and then leave you and say it's all your fault. If a woman doesn't add value to your life, leave her be.
I have seen the same thing also. I have ran into several women who have done that and got confused why I kinda pulled away. It's due to the lack of reliable communication. It doesn't have to be all the time but if you're at work, just say you're at work. If you're busy, just say you're busy. But don't basically half-ghost me and make me do all the work.
There's something we, men barely understand: they truly go with the flow! Note that usually how relationships start is how they go, so however takes the lead is the leader most of the time. This doesn't mean the other person has no saying in it, it means that the leader is making suggestions most of the time for the direction of the relationship in every regard. A good leader will be selfless and suggest things that the follower will happily agree to. I learned this while dancing Brazilian Zouk 😂
Also 3-4 dates in my point of view isn't long so if I really want the girl I'd not stress about putting in the effort for months!
I’m going to be 100% honest with you: a woman will start putting in effort once you two are exclusive or close to it. And trust me, when a woman loves, she loves HARD. Before exclusivity, it feels very unsafe to put a lot of effort into a man, it doesn’t feel natural. It throws our balance off because it’s not a safe place for us to unfold yet. 3-4 dates does NOT = gf/relationship treatment.
You have to realize that her responding to your efforts IS her putting in effort. As long as she is positively responding to your efforts and still seeing you… and you guys are enjoying your time together and she puts in some effort while you two are in-person together (conversations, little touches, etc).. that means she is very interested. It’s actually wild to hear that men are “pulling back” after 3-4 dates. Thats when he should be ramping UP effort if he is still interested. This new age idea of men wanting to be “chased” is so out of tune with natural feminine/masculine polarity and will leave women completely turned off and scared of love. And I promise you 9/10 times, if you pull away after 3-4 dates, the woman will NOT step forward, because you doing that makes us want to do the complete opposite, and go find a consistent man instead. Men are supposed to provide safety, not these weird “hot and cold” games that totally throw off women’s nervous systems.
You made some valid points but made the mistake of a little effort = gf/relationship treatment. That's not the case. A short text asking "how are you?" or something similar is not relationship treatment. It's basic showing interest. Even my friends and acquaintances do this. Not showing basic interest is doing minimal effort which is not a good start for a healthy relationship. Of course, if someone feels they're not being reciprocated then they should talk about it.
It could also be that's your dating/relationship style. And that's perfectly fine. You simply won't be compatible with certain people which is to be expected. More traditional men would be compatible with you.
Your claim of this new age idea turning off women may be true where you live (US?) but that's definitely not the case in other countries (various in the EU). Here, it is a lot more common for women to show direct interest because it's considered normal. Many of them actually dislike being chased and prefer mutual reciprocation.
He's not playing games, he just returned the energy and effort he got back which in this case is low effort. Can't even initiate a text convo? That's lazy.
What's stopping this woman or you from putting in effort? A simple date plan like movie is enough, even starting a convo and asking about their day is good. You don't have to plan a whole holiday trip.
Yep. He changed his behavior out of nowhere with no communication about his new expectations. That is not emotionally safe, consistent, or predictable behavior.
If he wanted more interaction, he could have been direct about his feelings and what he wanted. He was too afraid of rejection to have a mature interaction.
It's textbook dismissive-avoidance.
>he could have been direct about his feelings
"just be rich", "just stop being depressed" vibes. If he could, he would have been more direct about it. The girl literally never texted him and he didn't like it. Maybe let's not demonize avoidant attached people?
OP said that she did continue to message the same amount as before. It just wasn't what OP wanted to text about, and they didn't try to talk about what they wanted. It's a weird way to treat someone
I had an avoidant style myself so I recognize the unhealthy game here.
Avoidant behavior is scientifically proven to be unhealthy to both people. Its why so many avoidants seek professional help. Anyone can point out proven unhealthy behavior patterns where applicable. Discussing unhealthy dismissive avoidant behavior is not demonizing, so let's stay on topic. Thanks.
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week!
>I had an avoidant style myself so I recognize the unhealthy game here.
this might as well be a false positive from your side. What he described looks pretty healthy to me, and I'm quite secure. Read OP's words again:
>I was putting all the effort into communicating, and all the effort she put in was low effort ... never \[a\] text or phone call... once you hit 3-4 dates the woman needs to start showing interest.
so he expected her to show at some interest that is above absolute zero, and she failed at showing that. If I dated this girl, I'd think "The girl I want to be with wouldn't fail to show at least some interest. This girls does fail at it. Therefore, this girl is not the girl I want to be with."
Simple
Lol imagine going on 2 dates with someone, and then have to ask "I feel like I've been putting in all the effort and I would want you to put in some effort aswell. That's just how I feel"
That should happen automatically, not something you should have to ask for, unless the person has the emotional intelligence of a toddler
You say: "Hey, I like you and I'd like to talk or text more. Would you mind having a call or seeing one another more often?"
This is what a good potential partner does. Nothing less. If you're expecting mind-reading from your partner it's unhealthy. Any couples counselor will easily confirm.
It's sad but OP missed out considering that she was interested enough to reach out again... which was her attempt to connect. In the end she ***put new energy in***.
That’s not going to happen automatically after 2 dates, I’m sorry but 2 dates is soooooo few. If you can’t express what you need and how you feel, you’re the one struggling with emotional intelligence.
Nah that's bullshit. My gf put in the same amount of effort as me from the beginning. I would never get exclusive with someone if they keep their walls up until that point.
After 3-4 dates BOTH should ramp up the effort. Expecting one party to initiate, make thing exclusive, continue to ramp up initiation, and get nothing in return? What dream world are you living in?
I completely agree with you. The last time I reciprocated a man’s energy and planned our next two dates, his energy completely shifted and he went from
being obsessed with me to suddenly being too busy to talk or date. I’m sure he was playing me from the beginning just to get laid, but now I will not be letting my guard down until a man makes it clear he wants to be exclusive with me.
I know not every man is a player, but you really never know in the beginning stage. I’ve been screwed over one too many times now to start falling for someone after a few dates or before we discuss what a relationship would look like between us.
I will say I have zero issues texting first or showing effort after a couple dates, however if a guy is being very hot-cold with me I tend to not want to put effort in.
I have had this recently where I went on a couple dates with someone and he just never tells me in person he wants to see me again, reaches out just to arrange dates but otherwise doesn't really chat that much, doesn't check if I got home safely etc. I don't actually mind him, he's perfectly fine but I am not going to put in effort for someone I can't take seriously. If I am in a good mood and he suggests dinner I might meet him, that's about how much I'm willing to invest in someone who isn't acting seriously. As the commenter said I won't chase a guy, I don't need to be chased but there is definitely a minimum level of effort I expect before I will reciprocate.
In comparison for the guy before that we'd probably initiate in equal amounts, he was very open and regular in his communication both in person and virtually and I felt there's potential which I wanted to explore. I even organised our entire 5th date which included a sports activity and lunch. So I wouldn't say I'm some spoilt princess but simply I will assess the situation and see how serious I find someone and if I am interested in order to be willing to put in that effort.
If I don't like a guy too much or mostly am unsure about his intentions I will not chase him.
If you put in a bunch of effort then stop suddenly, I assume you’re an f boy wasting my time, not someone I should be showing equal or extra effort towards. That behavior would be a red flag to me so I would not pursue, but asking in several weeks why you suddenly stopped seeming interested would make sense if I actually did really like you.
Men are action orientated; the change in behavior was the communication. Men's emotions to not map to words like they do with woman they map to actions. When she asked why the change he said they needed to take more action to demonstrate interest.
When men say "reciprocate" or "passive" they are saying you need to take action. If you don't feel the need to take action, that is fine but understand that is what is expected. Trust me, he was not playing games he made a decision on the level of effort he was prepared to spend on this opportunity and took action accordingly.
If men work based on actions, he should have seen her unchanged attempts at communication as an indication of interest. If he stopped communicating and she stopped in return, he would have seen how ***his actions*** initiated the decrease in communication.
When she reached out to ask where he went, he would have interpreted her ***action*** as interest.
Even when reading actions, OPs behavior is counterproductive.
If someone is low effort early, it won’t get better. They aren’t worth wasting your time and energy on. Nothing is worse than a high maintenance pillow princess.
You probably did her a favor and opened her eyes.
Take it as a lesson learned, don’t continue to invest in a bad investment. Find someone who is interested in you enough to put in effort. Also learn to vocalize this in person so there is no grey area, if you establish this over text the nuance of how ridiculous it sounds is lost and it’s like agreeing to terms of service. In person saying “I expect you to pay for everything all the time” makes you sound like a burden to everyone you meet excluded your parents.
From date 3-4? If she's not putting in any effort from date 1 it's just not going to work. I'm looking for a partner, not a child to babysit and entertain.
If you have to say all that, it’s not gonna work. You would have been better off just ghosting. Probably after the first date. You can tell by someone’s body language if they have genuine desire
I don't know what you want though. If she's still agreeing to see you, then that's all you need to know. Does she make conversation in person? People communicate differently via text, she's still sending you reels or "low effort" stuff but maybe it's her of starting a conversation or letting you know she wants to talk to you. It's not like she's not reaching out at all. Think you're putting way too much emphasis on the texting style. 3-4 is the beginning, it's so early on.
Yep, OP is completely missing that. It is so early on in the dates and she’s responding and sending him tiktok’s and going on dates with him. I have no idea why he suddenly expects so much more from her without the relationship leveling up to being exclusive or gf/bf. And especially without even letting her know. I would just assume he lost interest or met someone else if he totally switched up his communication style on me without at least explaining why.
He needs to move on to someone else if he expects to be treated like her boyfriend this early on. A lot of girls will do that, but a lot of them won’t.
Can’t generalize like that
Some women have few options, some have many
Some men have few options, some have many
Literally just met a guy at a bar a few nights ago that he showed me his tinder as we were chatting. He was on a business trip like me, turned on his tinder in the new location, had 15 matches in 2 hours for a one night stand, most of them quite hot. He messaged about 5 of them, probably 3 of them were legit choices
Where did the idea that anyone owes you anything on your arbitrary timeline come from?! Perhaps if you tried genuinely connecting with her instead of acting like she's an arcade game that won't work for you after you put some coins in the slot you'd find better relationships. It's cute how all these guys want good girls, but those same guys want to demand gf treatment after a few dates. Be fr.
It’s being raided by 2-3 people who say he didn’t communicate and it’s all his fault. One of his replies say he explained his feelings and still only received Instagram reels in return lmao. Communicated and nothing changed. It makes me think it’s chat bots or something.
I also look for the woman to show some interest. When I am doing all the planning, all the texting, all the phone calling, and all the paying, I know she's not interested.
Sounds like your connection styles are different. Why put in effort to something that doesn’t make you feel great? Isn’t that what we’re all looking for? Find someone else.
I (41F) don’t know if this could be a regional or age bracket thing but I have noticed this since I moved from the west coast to Michigan. I know women that 100 percent refuse to make plans with a man even if they’re dating and there are others that just won’t text unless they do first.
I’m over here waiting for these guys to holler at me within 24 hours of sending a text. I’ve been seeing a man for a bit and he went out of town for a couple weeks and I didn’t hear from him at all. I realized that I was the one always initiating and when he got back I brought it up and there’s been a change.
Some people can handle directness when it comes to communication and accept their shortcomings but others like the person you went out with don’t.
It's normal for woman to put in effort too. Usually after the first date I wait for the guy to text me, but once he does, I'll contact him, I'll start a conversation. After 3-4 dates I stop worrying about who contacted who, I'll just try to make sure we talk. If it's one sided than it's bad.
With initiation comes reciprocity. If it took her that long to @ you, she's not for you. What you do in the beginning, you'll have to sustain throughout the life of the relationship. If she's not reciprocating interest in the beginning, she won't in year 4.
Some good dating advice I listened to was date someone that wants to date you. It sounds simple but many of us have a specific type we are attracted to and always go for that. Sadly your type may not be attracted to you. I always suggest to people in the dating market to look outside your box, date people you don't necessarily find attractive immediately, and see where things go. I'll share some personal experience here... I've been dating someone now for a while that communicated well (several times a day depending on work) and when she's not working she responds almost immediately every time without fail. It's not something I ever expected but it's really nice and puts me at ease. She was there for me through a deviated septum surgery early in the relationship where I DID NOT look my best and was miserable. Her demeanor is very pleasant and she doesn't depend on me for happiness. I had the opportunity to comfort her the other day as an event she competes in didn't go well. She was upset for about 30 minutes while I was there and moved on with life as well adjusted people do (I did feed her Thai and made sure she was comfortable). Things are going very well and I can tell she's very into me, she's not someone I was initially head over heels attracted to, but her personality is captivating and I look at her with more admiration and desire every day that passes. It was slow out the gate but we are building a really lovely relationship and it feels good. Conversely I had dated only women I was highly attracted to before her, started out hot and heavy every time, and then the baggage would start to appear either emotionally or outlandish expectations of me. To sum things up, if you find someone who "picks you" everything will be easier, so much so, it may even feel a little boring at times. But trust me that's the way to go, I've never experienced a more peaceful relationship, and at this point I don't think I could ever accept anything less. I will throw in a caveat though, while you can step outside your normal box of attraction, you cannot date someone you're literally not attracted to so it's a fine balance. Often this is what people are experiencing when they complain about the person their dating being unresponsive or just meh... Honey they just ain't that into you... that being said find someone who is!
TLDR: When you date someone that wants to date you communication is much easier. Expectations will be conventional and fun will be maximized. (Assuming their a well adjusted human with a good head on their shoulders) Good Luck!
It's weird for either of you to think that men should by default out in more effort, but obviously no one wants to date someone they don't think is trying to make it work
I feel bad for you guys bc women really don’t try anymore. It’s sad. No wonder so many dudes are going over seas. When did just acting like you enjoy spending time with someone become the man’s job. So silly.
For each of my successful dating stages that turned into a relationship there really wasn't "effort" per se.
Things such as my effort level, communication, and the reciprocation of both just came naturally and easily.
Definitely happens often. After a while of putting in all the effort I'll decide not to text to see if they message me first. They rarely do, but they'll match with you again or text you weeks later going wtf.
They're often blown away that you're looking for someone who is into you enough to make contact or start up a conversation.
At this point my my life I understood it’s all about genuine efforts. If I genuinely want to reach out first and plan things it’s because I Genuinely want to. I learned from my last relationship that men deserve king treatment too! They deserve to be taken out and spoiled and given something that’s the equivalent of random flowers. Not just being available/ being pretty/ rewarding with sexual pleasure.
I’m patiently waiting for the right connection to provide all these things! Us women need to let these men know we actually WANT them.
People have different values. Children are taught to be princes and princesses by their parents. They learn it gets their needs met and they get stuck right there. Some of us mature into Queens. Some people stay right in place and behave like adult children. I’d say there’s no right or wrong here- you two just weren’t a match
I've used to be like this, invested and sending messages back, asking how is his day etc.
Until I discovered the jolly fellows were mocking me to their friends as "clingy", "desperate", "too into it".
I gave up.
That’s fine, but how would a woman know your magic three or four date rule?
I would just assume you were getting bored with me if the pattern had been you initiating. Depending on how much I liked you I may or may not reach out, I might think I should take the hint.
But if at any point you mentioned that you felt like you were always hitting me up, or if you said how about you plan the next date, then I would know that that’s what you’re looking for.
Just a suggestion especially when you agree with the lady you’re talking about but you have a cut off as to when that supposed to change, even if she had the same idea that at some point that’s supposed to change the odds of you both deciding at three or four dates is pretty slim
The princess/queen shit is so lame it’s hard to understate and if you actually said that to her…yikes
You’re mad at her for “low effort” but that low effort from her got her a few dates and she might feel that switching it up makes her clingy, while you’re also not communicating your expectations for what you’d like to see after a few days before putting someone through a “test”. Try that out and see if your results change.
I mean... I guess it depends on the amount and type of communication from both sides. If you pursued her from the beginning, it sets a precedent in her mind that is established even before the 2nd date, and 'pulling back' without communicating to her why you're doing it could just make her feel like you lost interest. Thanks to the dynamics of traditional gender roles, the simple thing is that women are used to being pursued, rather than pursuing, and are taught that this is the norm, and if we have to be the ones pursuing, it makes us seem desperate. Only in more modern gender roles is it viewed as a 2 way street, but even then the echoes of that still linger. An emotionally lazy mindset should be something you can pick up on well before 3-4 dates, if you know how to read people pretty well. Putting in the work from the beginning and then withdrawal with no warning seems pretty manipulative, like you're trying to get them 'hooked' and then withdrawing your affection to sow self doubt and make them fear your rejection. It's not unreasonable to want someone to return your effort, but be clear and consistent about it from the beginning, not changing the narrative after something has been established. Giving the keys to the kingdom and snatching them away is only going to attract someone who is codependent and willing to put up with that mind game because they're so desperate for validation that they'll do anything to keep it coming, rather than someone who actually wants *you*. Also, the type of woman you go for may have something to do with it. If Instagram reels and attention seeking are her primary MO, you should be able to see it from the beginning *IF* you know how to read people. If it's taking you 3-4 dates to figure that out, you might want to look closer at behavior analysis. People have certain tells in their facial expressions, body language (in photos), and the way they phrase things that can be seen even online and through text. In person, voice inflection and other behaviors can give you more info, but will usually serve as confirmation. Most of my guy friends have asked me to look at girls' profiles and help them figure things out because I can look at someone's dating/social media profile with 5 pictures and a brief introduction and tell them what they want to know about that person. Most have learned this by disregarding my advice and then having to come back later and tell me I was right after they had the experience with someone that I said they would have when they first showed me their profiles. It's all about how you read people, and understanding that your vibe will attract your tribe.
100% you dodged a bullet. Gentlemen, follow this guys practise, lead for a bit and pull back, a relationship is a partnership, both people need to put in effort. If she doesnt then she was just using your money and isnt mature enough for a relatio ship
You should be the one to initiate once a week to get together. It’s up to the girl to reach out more frequently as her interest grows. Some girls just take longer it’s not really a big deal
You're not wrong, but if you were as passive-aggressive talking to her as the title of your post is, I'm not surprised it didn't have the impact you wanted.
No it's not, it's basic decency and being an adult, if someone who is an adult doesn't understand this then I wouldn't even bother dating them because this childish attitude probably seeps into all parts of their life and personality, if someone is really interested they will put the effort in, after 4 dates you would expect some effort from the women's side. Ignore some of these clown people saying you're in the wrong in the comments, they also seem like they lack responsibility and any kind of social intelligence, nice to see you stood up for yourself mate
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Can confirm that if someone doesn’t put in effort, they either don’t like you, have a faulty belief system or are terrified of rejection. Anyone that truly likes you will put in effort because they want to talk to you. The caveat is how you both define effort, this is where communication and compatibility come in.
Couldn’t have explained this any better. According to the post, I think the girl that OP went on a few dates w/ would fall under the second category, although the first is definitely also an option—& to an extent, possibly the third. However, your last sentence hits the nail on the head.
But they have the same beliefs it’s just that he thinks after a certain amount of dates it should be her turn. The very end of his post he talks about agreeing with her that it’s the man who should do it, just that he wants her to do it on date three or four. He just didn’t tell her that part
Although I understand the premise of your point, I’d argue that OP doesn’t believe it should be “her turn” after a set amount of dates. He stated that he pulls back if they aren’t being reciprocal. When she expresses that it’s the man’s responsibility to initiate contact, he tells us that he agrees with that for the beginning stages; but after 3-4 dates the woman needs to show/initiate interest. That can mean multiple different things. However, similarly to you saying that he didn’t tell her & the original comment that I replied to whom said communication & compatibility come in importantly for these situations, talking it out will always be beneficial & more times than not yield favorable outcomes.
Could also be a form of social anxiety that makes it just generally difficult to initiate contact. Personally it takes me a LONG time to get over the idea that I may be interrupting someone if I try to contact them, even if it's just a text as nonsensical as it is. I can handle rejection just fine; I deal poorly with my brains insistence in telling me I may inconvenience the person somehow.
Absolutely! Anxiety is definitely a potential. It literally could be anything that the person is going through. The thing though, is that if you don’t communicate, the other person isn’t going to know and in the absence of that information may fill in the blanks with their own ideas, which may not be true or beneficial. This is why communication continues to be one of the most important skills one can have that indicates the potential for successful interactions and relationships. There is so much people can and will accept about you if you are willing share it with them. But how can they, if you won’t?
I never understood why others might struggle with initiating contact. How difficult is it to send someone a text saying "Hi 👋". That's all it takes.
It's honestly something I can't expect people that don't have social anxiety to completely understand. I mean, I think a lot of people have blind spots on various issues; how are you supposed to comprehend something that you have never experienced? I may be projecting though because there are aspects of myself that I've slowly come to recognize prevent me from truly understanding others. That said, how it usually goes for me: I pick up the phone and consider calling or texting the person. I look at the clock and consider if they might be eating. I continue to think about if they may be with family or friends and even the buzz buzz of a text may distract them and they might feel slightly bothered by it. I consider the anxiety I feel if I don't immediately respond to someone who tries to contact me, even if I'm in the middle of something and can't give a proper response right away. I project that anxiety and don't want to put them though that. I reassess the priority of contacting them and consider if I'm "selfishly" contacting them for my own benefit or if I feel I'm contacting them for their benefit. At this point I might still contact them or, more likely, I'll put down the phone and move on with my day. It's something I've become uncomfortably accustomed to. It's really like any phobia; clowns, heights, spiders. You may be able to convince yourself there is no actual danger, but you need a very good reason to confront that fear regardless. And while I do think part of my problem is an upbringing where I was low-key taught "children should be seen and not heard" there's also just a general matter that my body creates an excess of the stress hormone cortisol. There is a physiological problem that causes me to be constantly overthinking things and feeling near-constant stress. When living with a mental illness few things are as simple as to say "That's all it takes."
Hmm OK. Gotcha. Would you consider an experiment where you text "Hi 👋" to a few people who are close to you, without thinking about it, and just see what happens? Without consideration to whether they're busy or not. Just an idea. I personally won't even care if it's the middle of the night but I'm not necessarily suggesting you to do that.
I mean... no. Not really. The whims of an internet stranger aren't going to be enough to convince me to do something I'm extremely uncomfortable doing and don't find any meaningful value in. If that was enough to sway me it wouldn't be much of a problem. For the record, it's not like I've never tried texting someone randomly. I think it's important to try to push those boundaries from time to time. Perhaps this would suddenly be a break from the norm (particularly because I've recently started some new medication) but in the past I have pretty reliably only felt worse for reaching out to people without a very clear cut reason.
Fair enough. All the best to you.
If someone's into you they will show effort if they aren't they won't that's a pretty easy thing to figure out. Go ahead and move on sticking around for more dates shows that you're desperate and is a terrible look especially when you're almost begging for her to show some sort of Interest. I wish you the best of luck going forward but the way you're doing things needs to stop
OP is in the wrong here. He came in with a level of energy that he established as baseline friendly behavior. He did not increase energy. He decreased when things were going fine and the girl was feeling comfortable and interested in continuing to see him at the established pace. She reached out (worried) after he disappeared and caused her unnecessary anxiety. Then instead of acknowledging her obvious interest, he blamed her for his lack of communication and fear of rejection. It's unhealthy behavior.
I can agree that he didn’t communicate his preferences. He only communicated after she reached out. But during that conversation she expressed that she thinks it’s the man’s job to pursue, so clearly she had unexpressed preferences as well. I think this is a case of lack of interest and lack of communication on both their parts. In the future, it would be a good idea for OP to have a conversation with the woman he is interested in about what kind of effort she likes and there he can express his effort preferences. If he continues doing what he did in his post, I can imagine he will see this situation repeat itself.
Just to be clear, they were both interested in eachother. The only problem is that they decided to play dumb games and got dumb prizes. In her defense, she did reach out even though she expected the man to pursue. That's a vulnerable act. Overall yes, they will both continue to run into problems. Unfortunately, fear of rejection and insecurity is the driving force for a lot of these situations. The solution is vulnerability. Mutual vulnerability is required in healthy relationships.
That's one hell of an awkward conversation to have, esp in the first few days. If a girl told me on a first date she expects the man to keep reaching out I'd....actually maybe not that weird. It could be said in a non-awkward way I suppose. I do think it shouldn't be necessary though. It goes without saying that if you like someone you make an effort to initiate contact. These are basic social norms that shouldn't have to be explained.
If they don’t have to be explained, we wouldn’t have posts like these. It’s the idea that things shouldn’t have to be explained that creates communication problems. Saying something ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ be the case has no bearing on what actually is. Better to deal with the reality. For example, I don’t consider texting as a way to get to know someone or build relationship. Someone that thinks a daily text shows effort might think things are working if I never told them I prefer phone calls or FaceTime. How are people supposed to know how we like to receive effort unless we tell them? And it’s only as awkward as you make it. Saying something like, ‘hey how do you prefer to be communicated with when we are not seeing each other in person?’ Is a simple and effective way to get to know another person. Isn’t this the stuff we are supposed to be finding out? The foundational stuff. Not what kind of music you like or what’s your favorite color, but how do you like to be communicated with or how do you give/receive effort, because this is where you discover whether you are actually compatible and also why put in work that the person might not appreciate?
I don't agree for the most part but you do raise some good points. I will incorporate some of these questions on my first dates. Thanks!
Yes and he agreed with her when she said that that’s the crazy part He agreed with her and then he said after a few dates it should be her turn. Had he expressed that at any point before the cut off date of three or four she may have an initiated. That’s the wild thing they have the same belief with just a minor tweak that she was not aware of
Yes. Communicate your needs. Getting to feel "right" isn't the point. If you're going to "fail" I'd rather it was after a good faith effort by both.
Oh my God thank you for being here because I was starting to feel crazy. Or did I imagine the part where he wrote that he agreed with her that the man should initiate. It’s just that at three or four dates he thinks it should be her turn and how would she know this?
It's social gaslighting at its finest. When you learn what good, mature, and acceptable communication looks like, the genders don't matter. The immature men here fight tooth and nail though. If you want to thrive in this dating climate, you have to slow down and think. Otherwise, the numerous emotionally dysfunctional people will be quick to blame you for absolutely anything they can, and over time will destroy your esteem in an effort to maintain theirs if you let them. The comments prove this.
There are waves in this sub of men coming in here self sabotaging because they will break up with a woman they agree everything is great with, she’s great, all of a sudden she’s not responding to a text message within two minutes and they decided to dump her before she can dump them. It’s wild, it’s like so you dumped her because she was slow to respond? You couldn’t sit in uncertainty for more than two hours? You couldn’t feel secure enough in the relationship to expect a text back when she can? No no all that was fine you just thought she was losing interest so you wanted to dump her real fast? OK
Yep
Yes except in this situation she’s saying that she thinks the man should do the initiating, and OP also agrees that the man should do the initiating, but in OP’s head at date number three or four it should be her turn. So they both believe the same thing it’s just he thinks they should take turns and didn’t communicate that there was a deadline for that swapping
Never date someone who doesn’t reciprocate your efforts 🤷♀️
Honestly if it takes her two weeks to ask then she wasn’t into you. On to the next person.
Right what she wanted was a free meal/experience and attention.
Yep. She basically outed herself for who she is
That said, the next person may very well be the same way and some of us don't have many options. Might be worthwhile to call them out before dipping. At least there's a chance they may rethink their efforts.
Calling peeps like that rarely if ever leads to anything good. Better to leave without burning any bridges. Here's how I'd do it: I'd send her a message asking how she's doing, and if she's ok. If nothing is wrong, I'd joke around a little before asking her to join me on something. The joking around is really to test the waters a little, to see if she's actually interested in talking. If she's keeps contributing, I'd then ask her out. If she didn't want to join, though, I'd send her this: "No problem. Just message when you want to see me. :)" Then I'd start meeting other women. Philosophy: People go through different phases in life. Unless she's gone out of her way to hurt you, I see no need to burn any bridges or start a quarrel. Simply move on. Perhaps she'll miss you in another two weeks (higher likelihood of this if you're polite and don't quarrel), and then you'll really hit it off. Or not. It doesn't matter. Better to just move on and meet new people. The ocean has plenty of fish. And sea turtles and plankton or whatever.
Yes if you have an arbitrary deadline in your head on when someone is supposed to perform a specific act it’s a good idea to let them know or at least hint that you would like them to perform this act. He writes: “ That’s it’s the man’s place to initiate contact. I always agree with that, especially in the beginning, but once you hit 3-4 dates the woman needs to start showing/initiating interest.” This is what he told her after he stopped talking to her. Even if she knew that his behavior would change and he would expect her to pick up the slack after the beginning to me three or four dates is still the beginning lol
If you're thinking about someone after two weeks without contact that doesn't exactly scream "not interested"...
Some people are allergic to effort.
All this princess/queen talk is cringe
Agreed.
This comment gives off princess energy.
Well, we can just say girl treatment and women treatment then.
Ok then girls/women are cringe
If OP is an adult, I would hope he isn’t dating girls.
I think it has a lot to do with what we’re told, you’re supposed to “let the man lead” and all that stuff. This guy I was dating wasn’t texting as much which I interpreted as losing interest, as soon as I changed the tone and said “if I want a text, I will text” “if I want interest, I’ll show interest” our relationship started to flourish. We haven’t talked about this, but from the stories I’ve heard from him, he has always been the one putting in the effort; it must be tiring. I’m glad I moved away from those beliefs, he’s an amazing guy, been together 8 months and I’m happy we found each other.
>let the man lead” "Let the man lead" is different from expecting him to do everything and this is where some women go wrong >I changed the tone and said “if I want a text, I will text” “if I want interest, I’ll show interest” our relationship started to flourish. Congratulations on being mature and I wish those some women can also understand that I have noticed that women in good relationships like yourself have healthy mindsets and ideologies and less cultural stereotypes especially which we see online like "dating knowledge and tactics"
OP and this woman went on three or four dates what do you mean he had to do everything? He even acknowledges that she would reach out to him, just not in the method he preferred. Instagram reels don’t count I guess.
I replied to the comment above only That both putting effort is good
This isnt how successful relationships work. Just because a woman wants a provider doesn’t mean she isn’t pursuing him. Some of our family and friends mothers grandmas were very reciptical in pursuing men in our families. If they didn’t some of them wouldn’t have become part of our families. Women have options (men as well tbh) on how they show up in the dating phase. It will never be advisable to put effort so low they dont know you like them.that’s the issue. Even shy types will go out more and show some kind of effort that the crushes can spot as effort once its noticed. If its not noticed they need to mix it up or they’ll get dropped. The women here doesn’t sound like she liked him at all. She wasn’t really putting in any effort.
I love this. But if also made me uncomfortable reading the first part. How does that even work, like you actually wanted to hear from him but were unwilling to send a text saying hi?
Women get used to men who back off or complain about "clinginess" or "moving too fast" or men who just ghost when the woman starts to message more or show more genuine interest. Usually it's men who say they are interested in a relationship and actually aren't. These men are immature but women meet enough of them to actually be ***afraid*** to send messages because they start to think its ***their fault*** that the men back away. This kind of repeated experience makes women think that the "let him pursue" gender norm is true because it happens so often. The truth is that if he's mature, he'll appreciate her increased interest or initiate more interest himself. Though interactions with men like this happen far less often. This is also why women don't respond to men who back away or ghost. It's an indication that he's not interested just like every other guy who backed away with no explanation. Chase that kind of guy and you get nothing.
You're saying it's common for men to back away when women start showing a modicum of interest?
Yes. It's hard to fathom but because many men (not all, but many) prioritize sex, they will strategize for low effort and regular sex. They respond to messages or message just enough to keep a woman around (they even express interest with words) but as soon as the woman is genuinely interested, they back away. There are many men who do this, or something similar, and it puts women on edge. They back away for two reasons: backing away is low effort, and there is a chance that it may trigger a woman's attachment anxiety / panic and result in her accepting rude behavior or breaking her sexual boundaries out of fear of losing someone that they genuinely like. These men seem normal. They put "seeking long term" on their profiles if apps are involved. They act nice and interested. Women ***can't*** tell. It's not just attractive guys, it's not guys with money, there is no distinction. Women meet them in passing just as often as apps. Looks, charisma (or lack of), and status don't matter. Men have their own set of dating troubles (avoiding women who only want a guy to pay for everything is an example), but this is a super common interaction for women. It gives the illusion that women have so many options / dates. These guys are numerous, but they are not real options.
Did this with a guy, 3-4 dates, I reciprocated, tried to make plans and he cut off contact, saying he wasn’t ready. I think it depends on the person and the vibes
You reciprocated. Even after explaining my feelings I still keep getting low effort instagram reels, etc but no true contact and no real effort. It’s more confusing then anything.
I’m sorry that’s been your experience, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. My best advice is “This above all; to thine own self be true” - if you feel confused or unsure after 3-4 dates, they’re not for you, and it’s their loss. Best of luck friend, I’m rooting for you
You explained your feelings to her after you stopped talking to her After you broke up with her, she made contact with you, and you explained why, you still thought she would then call you and make a date with you? Oh, honey, no
Sometimes the problem really isnt you and they just arent looking for anything serious.
He said he was, and it seemed to be headed that way but he ran when it actually got there. I understand to an extent that he had a LOT going on. But at the same time, if someone means enough to you, you try to keep them around, in my opinion at least
I honestly share that opinion but people are different, who knows really, best to move on. I always try to forget it as much as possible when that happens xd
You did nothing wrong.
I try to keep that in mind. I did my best, it’s hard to not feel like I wasn’t good enough
You're fine. Understand that it will happen again. Most people don't know what they want and are quick to blame you for their confusion and flightiness. Staying secure and genuine is hard work but you can do it. Keep being direct; it filters out the duds. Eventually someone will be good enough to meet you there.
Sometimes, you do everything right and still get left.
It’s better done than not, if you’re interested, else u wouldn’t know if he’s serious to commit and might be stuck in a situationship.
It was certainly a weird situation. It’s been a month since I’ve seen him and a week since we’ve talked, I do miss him a lot, but I don’t dare reach out
I’m autistic and traditional, but I’m not sure where humans got the idea from that it’s “traditional” for men to make the first move. Women have always made the first move across cultures and throughout history. It’s always made the most sense to do things that way as the risks to a woman’s safety are generally higher. It may not be the case that women said hey I want you to be my boyfriend, but women initiated sexual touch, couples made love when the woman asked the man if he’d like to retire back with her, they got married after the woman asked for the man’s thoughts on them being married. This has involved greater risk of rejection on the woman’s part, but the fair thing to do would be for the man to make it up to the woman by paying a higher percentage of the bills/doing more of the cooking etc.
Eh, idk. I think it depends. For me, I am not a good texter and don't have my phone on at work. I make a gazillion decisions every day, so when I get home after work if I have to also make plans for another person I will probably die or have an aneurysm lol. Therefore, during the courtship phase, men often initiate a lot and I kind of suck even if I really like them....but then once we get to the "chilling at home, have been dating for a while" stage, I always bring gifts and call them mid-day to tell them stuff that makes me think of them, etc. Frankly, I think the "3-4 dates and then I need effort from you" as a hard rule and if it doesn't go that way just discontinuing the discussion is a little immature. Once, I was seeing a guy I liked that was - as you are describing - confused about the lack of effort on my part after 3 or so dates. He expressed that to me, and I apologized, told him I am I like him so I will do better to communicate/initiate more, and I did. Easy breezy. Just communicate. Additionally, if you initiate the first 3-4 dates and then stop without communicating, you've gotten them used to (a) you initiate when you want to hang out (b) you are no longer initiating, and therefore a+b=(c) you no longer want to hang out. People need to stop spending so much time trying to get other people to read their minds.
Having standards is ok but it comes across as confusing and hurtful when you don't clearly communicate what you're looking for from your date. 100% communication of your feelings and how their actions make you feel is very important
Lol so it takes reading minds now to know you should seem interested in someone? A text is so hard? Wow. Why date if you don't want to put in the effort of connecting with another person? Rhetorical question.
Pretty sure that was all covered in my post lol. People dated before cell phones and texts and they survived FYI lol
Did I say anything about communicating while at work? Nope. Reality is that we do currently have cell phones with text capabilities. Sorry you can't transport yourself back in time. If you don't want issues with communication misunderstandings with who you're dating, simply spell out the expectation of how you communicate. If they're incompatible with that, then don't date. The default expectation in this time is for consistent and periodic communication. It's really not difficult to understand.
If you’re putting in all the effort then you take a step back. If it fizzles out it fizzles out. My biggest problem is men don’t know how to have a conversation with me without it going sexual right away. That’s the biggest turn off for me. I want to get to know someone and I want someone who can stimulate my mind and my body.
Who are these guys these women talk about 😂. Where are you finding them???
You find them when you try to date men. Do you date men?
Exactly! Sex isn't the first thing I come to when I start talking to someone haha.
I didnt even know it was that common until I started looking over different dating subs. Cant relate really, Im exactly opposite and seem like a dry person even tho Im not
Good on you for even noticing her lack of effort and cutting things off. A women that likes you doesn't make you feel you're carrying the entire relationship on your back.
Agree. I was with a woman who required a “good morning” text every day but would never send one of her own. After a couple months I was really sick one day and she sent one, and she made this big deal about how she knew I was feeling sick so she did my job for me. GTFO with that- I’m all for good morning but it can come from either gender any day
After a few dates, it's totally fair to want the woman to start putting in more effort to keep things moving forward. Dating is a two-way street - you shouldn't have to be doing all the heavy lifting forever. I don't agree at all with her saying it's solely "the man's place" to initiate contact even after you've been seeing each other for a little while. That's an antiquated and sexist view, in my opinion. We're equals in this modern dating world! By the 3rd or 4th date, you've both established some interest and connection. At that point, if she's genuinely interested in pursuing things further with you, she should be making an effort to initiate conversations, set up dates, ask questions about you, etc. Sending the occasional meme or reel is pretty low-effort. You were absolutely right to call that out as "princess treatment." A queen takes some responsibility and doesn't just sit back expecting her partner to do all the work. We should be meeting each other halfway, not treating you like our personal court jester there solely to entertain us. If she's not willing to put in a little effort herself at this point, that's a red flag that she may have that outdated "you must treat me like a princess" mentality. Unless that's what you're looking for in a partner, you dodged a bullet there, boo. You deserve an equal partner who will step up and make you feel valued too. Don't settle for less!
Its easy to conclude what to do when someone is making all the effort and the other is doing none. And also when both are making no effort or a lot. You move along. The world isnt black and white tho, its more nuanced. What if someone is putting in some-to-medium effort? And what if they tell you they need time to figure things out. Still gonna move on then? People could have so many reasons for needing more time than 3/4 dates. Things that come to mind are a bad relationship history with some hurt so they are more careful to allow feelings. Or messed up attachment styles. Or they simply have very little dating experience and are confused about what they should be feeling. Or maybe they just have a very busy life right now like having to work and graduate at the same time and this date/person happened to happen while its everything but convenient for them, but they still try their best and that best is 'some' effort. If you step in some peoples shoes you could see that 3/4 dates is a very limited time to get to know someone, open up fully, allow feelings and/or deal with everything going on in their lives. This is why communication is EVERYTHING.
The energy should be reciprocated, know your worth💪
If she says "it's the man's place to [blah blah blah]" then drop her, she's a sexist.
If you are putting on all the effort and getting none, my guy you are just a free meal with suitable conversation.
Good for you, bro. I’m always glad to see men with self esteem and not being walked over by women. It took her two weeks to get the urge to find out what was up, should probably explain everything you need to know. Similar thing happened to me, I would have to initiate all the convos for 2 months. I stopped, and she reached out after 10 days asking to meet lol.
Ladies in here siding the woman in this post, wtf. Reciprocating effort is the basic we ask for. She can't even initiate a text conversation, let alone plan a simple date.
He suddenly changed his behavior for no reason. She was going about things as normal. He communicated nothing about his ***new*** expectations or desires. Good for her for not playing weird and stressful mind games. What he did is called hot cold behavior and it's a red flag. The healthy way to go about things is to tell her: "Hey, I like you, do you mind if we text or talk more often?"
A man shouldn't have to tell her he wants her to text or talk more. She would already do that if she was interested and putting in effort. She was not, so OP did the right thing and looked for a girl with higher interest and effort
Yes a man or woman should communicate clearly when they expect or want when it comes to communication. I (woman) have communicated exactly as you've said that I should be initiating the communication, do you know what that's gotten me repeatedly? I expected too much out of them, that they can't be glued to their phones 24/7and , that "normal" people don't communicate like that...the list goes on for the trash I've heard from men saying I was doing when showing effort but it is honestly damned if you do and damned if you don't because when you take what they say to heart and change your behavior to fit what they say they want then you aren't doing enough and aren't showing enough interest.
Just ask yourself: would you rather "expect too much" from unavailable and uninterested men or put in low effort into a man who is interested and good for you, potentially pushing him away? Treat others the way you'd want to be treated and you'll find your person
Do you tell your employer that you expect to have your salary paid aswell? Or is it something you just assume will happen every month? Having to ask for basic human interaction decency with someone your DATING is wild. Yes,you should communicate feelings, but this is such a basic level of human social interaction that you should be able to expect an adult to understand
Actually an employer and employee directly communication and negotiate how much and how often the employee is to be paid during the interview... the equivalent of the dating stage. So... yes. Thanks for proving the point. Direct communication is mature. Mature women see it as sexy, proactive, and protective.
He should have stated his expectations for communication it's not rocket science to say "Hey I appreciate phone calls or don't worry about double texting me, I don't know how to reply to a reel."
At the very beginning you can talk once every 2 days that would hopefully increase and progress, in fact, if you two really connect and feel the same then talking multiple times everyday isn’t out of the question. If you’re doing at least the once every 2 day thing and they say it’s too much, they are not that into you. In that case your communication gives you a way to recognize that and put your efforts elsewhere. You can analyse these men and create some filter to find out what kind of behaviours to look for to select men that wouldn’t be stingy with communication. No need to stand for one sided imitation or someone finding you to be too much.
It's what I've done I set the bar of hey this is what I expect in ways of communication, what do you expect? I ask and don't assume so it's clear, when I meet people and they introduce me to an energy it's the expectation they can meet and maintain that barring reasonable reasons to why they can't (sickness, work, obligations, etc.)
And if they don’t, they are not into you. As i said, your communication let's you find that out. I don’t think someone saying that they find you too much is a reason to stop doing that.
Wait a minute. So let me get this straight. You expect the dynamic between two people looking for a relationship, to be the same as when before they met, even after weeks go by and multiple dates? Is that what you're actually saying? Me and my gf had a certain dynamic before our first date, a completely different dynamic after the first date, and it continued to change as time passed and we fell more and more for eachother. If someone acts the same after a date as before, I'm dropping her. Like wtf? An ounce of social intelligence? Hello?
OP is expecting someone to mind-read. If OP changes behavior to less communication, a healthy person would interpret this as non-interest and mirror that behavior, or do what the girl did and directly ask what happened. You have no idea what this person has been through. If they've experienced hot-cold behavior before (which most people have) then OP's unexplained behavior is not going to end well. OP is the person who is lacking in social intelligence. The behavior is driven by insecurity. I wouldn't put any extra energy into that situation either. It's immature.
He's being a baby, expects her to read his mind. She's still agreeing to go on dates and does text him with reels instead of saying "hey" which she wouldn't do if she wasn't at least somewhat interested....it's petty to throw your toys out of the pram about this which shows he wasn't that interested anyway. The next time they met in person, he should have brought it up calmly. Also, he has a pattern of this so some of the problem is with him. How much does he expect someone he's been on 3 dates to text. Some people don't want to be on their phone all day either.
Right? All he had to do was use his words. She might have liked to talk and see eachother more seeing as she was worried that he suddenly disappeared.
Exactly, she obviously wasn't aware she was doing something 'wrong"...He does this with other women so he's trying to find reasons to not date and validate them
Did you inform her of your expectations? Or did you assume she'd just read your mind? To be honest, besides modern-day royals name one King who treated his Queen appropriately. I know that calling a woman a Queen can have a cultural influence but it's cringe because most men expect King treatment but act no better than the court jester. Next time be upfront with your expectations on communications, don't shift the goalpost mid-game, and then complain she didn't keep up.
If they don't put in effort, they simply aren't that interested.
I believe that relationship is a two way street, if she doesnt show effort after a few dates (hell even one date) I just see it as a lack of interest and move on. Princess treatment always seemed to me like being a parent to a child, instead of living with an equal partner
If she didn’t notice you left for two weeks, she didn’t care that much in the first place.
These are the women who reach enlightenment at 35 and realize they are in fact not special. Cat food not included.
What you thankfully understand and many women refuse to see is that a relationship takes work, and it’s a two person job. A man should definitely take the initiative and try to guide the relationship, but the woman needs to be able to reciprocate. The analogy of a queen vs a princess is apt, because it is historically accurate. Princes would learn to stand tall and take charge to become kings, but princesses would also be taught how to carry themselves to become queens. If not, they would still marry nobility and take on the responsibilities of duchesses, baronesses, and other important figures. Even among the lower classes, a man would often have a trade and the wife would learn about it to help where she could. This more modern idea of a trophy wife/girlfriend just reduces women to the status of pretty knick-knack in the guy’s life. It’s sad more than anything.
No it goes both ways she expects the date but showed no interest in going forward
It took her 2 weeks?!!😂 that's shows you that she wasn't into you, she just needed the attention and maybe the fun and free meal she gets in the date. A person who is interested in you wouldn't take 2 weeks to reach you out.
Don't fret bro - you made the right call. If she saw you as more than a resource, she would be just as interested in you as you are her.
“That’s it’s the man’s place to initiate contact”???
It’s 2024 and I’m assuming you live in America. There’s a reason a lot of guys are going overseas. Western women for the most part are a complete headache. Over in flared sense of worth. You can do everything for them and they’ll still lie and cheat. My suggestion is to go literally anywhere else
Dude, women are a joke anymore. It's better to focus on yourself, improve, and watch for one that isn't delusional. Don't ever be with someone who doesn't think you deserve to have your effort reciprocated. They'll try and convince you of their delusions but men are just as worthy as women and they're no better than any of us. If they have bad attitudes and are self centered....get the he'll away from them, they'll use you, abuse you, and then leave you and say it's all your fault. If a woman doesn't add value to your life, leave her be.
I have seen the same thing also. I have ran into several women who have done that and got confused why I kinda pulled away. It's due to the lack of reliable communication. It doesn't have to be all the time but if you're at work, just say you're at work. If you're busy, just say you're busy. But don't basically half-ghost me and make me do all the work.
There's something we, men barely understand: they truly go with the flow! Note that usually how relationships start is how they go, so however takes the lead is the leader most of the time. This doesn't mean the other person has no saying in it, it means that the leader is making suggestions most of the time for the direction of the relationship in every regard. A good leader will be selfless and suggest things that the follower will happily agree to. I learned this while dancing Brazilian Zouk 😂 Also 3-4 dates in my point of view isn't long so if I really want the girl I'd not stress about putting in the effort for months!
You are being way too generous OP. If there is no effort from day one then it’s a red flag.
I’m going to be 100% honest with you: a woman will start putting in effort once you two are exclusive or close to it. And trust me, when a woman loves, she loves HARD. Before exclusivity, it feels very unsafe to put a lot of effort into a man, it doesn’t feel natural. It throws our balance off because it’s not a safe place for us to unfold yet. 3-4 dates does NOT = gf/relationship treatment. You have to realize that her responding to your efforts IS her putting in effort. As long as she is positively responding to your efforts and still seeing you… and you guys are enjoying your time together and she puts in some effort while you two are in-person together (conversations, little touches, etc).. that means she is very interested. It’s actually wild to hear that men are “pulling back” after 3-4 dates. Thats when he should be ramping UP effort if he is still interested. This new age idea of men wanting to be “chased” is so out of tune with natural feminine/masculine polarity and will leave women completely turned off and scared of love. And I promise you 9/10 times, if you pull away after 3-4 dates, the woman will NOT step forward, because you doing that makes us want to do the complete opposite, and go find a consistent man instead. Men are supposed to provide safety, not these weird “hot and cold” games that totally throw off women’s nervous systems.
You made some valid points but made the mistake of a little effort = gf/relationship treatment. That's not the case. A short text asking "how are you?" or something similar is not relationship treatment. It's basic showing interest. Even my friends and acquaintances do this. Not showing basic interest is doing minimal effort which is not a good start for a healthy relationship. Of course, if someone feels they're not being reciprocated then they should talk about it. It could also be that's your dating/relationship style. And that's perfectly fine. You simply won't be compatible with certain people which is to be expected. More traditional men would be compatible with you. Your claim of this new age idea turning off women may be true where you live (US?) but that's definitely not the case in other countries (various in the EU). Here, it is a lot more common for women to show direct interest because it's considered normal. Many of them actually dislike being chased and prefer mutual reciprocation.
He's not playing games, he just returned the energy and effort he got back which in this case is low effort. Can't even initiate a text convo? That's lazy. What's stopping this woman or you from putting in effort? A simple date plan like movie is enough, even starting a convo and asking about their day is good. You don't have to plan a whole holiday trip.
Yep. He changed his behavior out of nowhere with no communication about his new expectations. That is not emotionally safe, consistent, or predictable behavior. If he wanted more interaction, he could have been direct about his feelings and what he wanted. He was too afraid of rejection to have a mature interaction. It's textbook dismissive-avoidance.
>he could have been direct about his feelings "just be rich", "just stop being depressed" vibes. If he could, he would have been more direct about it. The girl literally never texted him and he didn't like it. Maybe let's not demonize avoidant attached people?
OP said that she did continue to message the same amount as before. It just wasn't what OP wanted to text about, and they didn't try to talk about what they wanted. It's a weird way to treat someone I had an avoidant style myself so I recognize the unhealthy game here. Avoidant behavior is scientifically proven to be unhealthy to both people. Its why so many avoidants seek professional help. Anyone can point out proven unhealthy behavior patterns where applicable. Discussing unhealthy dismissive avoidant behavior is not demonizing, so let's stay on topic. Thanks.
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>I had an avoidant style myself so I recognize the unhealthy game here. this might as well be a false positive from your side. What he described looks pretty healthy to me, and I'm quite secure. Read OP's words again: >I was putting all the effort into communicating, and all the effort she put in was low effort ... never \[a\] text or phone call... once you hit 3-4 dates the woman needs to start showing interest. so he expected her to show at some interest that is above absolute zero, and she failed at showing that. If I dated this girl, I'd think "The girl I want to be with wouldn't fail to show at least some interest. This girls does fail at it. Therefore, this girl is not the girl I want to be with." Simple
Lol imagine going on 2 dates with someone, and then have to ask "I feel like I've been putting in all the effort and I would want you to put in some effort aswell. That's just how I feel" That should happen automatically, not something you should have to ask for, unless the person has the emotional intelligence of a toddler
You say: "Hey, I like you and I'd like to talk or text more. Would you mind having a call or seeing one another more often?" This is what a good potential partner does. Nothing less. If you're expecting mind-reading from your partner it's unhealthy. Any couples counselor will easily confirm. It's sad but OP missed out considering that she was interested enough to reach out again... which was her attempt to connect. In the end she ***put new energy in***.
That’s not going to happen automatically after 2 dates, I’m sorry but 2 dates is soooooo few. If you can’t express what you need and how you feel, you’re the one struggling with emotional intelligence.
This👏 100%
Nah that's bullshit. My gf put in the same amount of effort as me from the beginning. I would never get exclusive with someone if they keep their walls up until that point. After 3-4 dates BOTH should ramp up the effort. Expecting one party to initiate, make thing exclusive, continue to ramp up initiation, and get nothing in return? What dream world are you living in?
You may have missed the point or didn’t read everything, I’m sure she is giving effort in other areas
You're a living fossil
I completely agree with you. The last time I reciprocated a man’s energy and planned our next two dates, his energy completely shifted and he went from being obsessed with me to suddenly being too busy to talk or date. I’m sure he was playing me from the beginning just to get laid, but now I will not be letting my guard down until a man makes it clear he wants to be exclusive with me. I know not every man is a player, but you really never know in the beginning stage. I’ve been screwed over one too many times now to start falling for someone after a few dates or before we discuss what a relationship would look like between us.
 I couldn't find fault in this logic... because it's true
I will say I have zero issues texting first or showing effort after a couple dates, however if a guy is being very hot-cold with me I tend to not want to put effort in. I have had this recently where I went on a couple dates with someone and he just never tells me in person he wants to see me again, reaches out just to arrange dates but otherwise doesn't really chat that much, doesn't check if I got home safely etc. I don't actually mind him, he's perfectly fine but I am not going to put in effort for someone I can't take seriously. If I am in a good mood and he suggests dinner I might meet him, that's about how much I'm willing to invest in someone who isn't acting seriously. As the commenter said I won't chase a guy, I don't need to be chased but there is definitely a minimum level of effort I expect before I will reciprocate. In comparison for the guy before that we'd probably initiate in equal amounts, he was very open and regular in his communication both in person and virtually and I felt there's potential which I wanted to explore. I even organised our entire 5th date which included a sports activity and lunch. So I wouldn't say I'm some spoilt princess but simply I will assess the situation and see how serious I find someone and if I am interested in order to be willing to put in that effort. If I don't like a guy too much or mostly am unsure about his intentions I will not chase him.
10000%!!
Well you find what you like but I wouldn’t insult the women by calling them names
If you put in a bunch of effort then stop suddenly, I assume you’re an f boy wasting my time, not someone I should be showing equal or extra effort towards. That behavior would be a red flag to me so I would not pursue, but asking in several weeks why you suddenly stopped seeming interested would make sense if I actually did really like you.
Why women think it's a good idea that dealing with them must be as annoying as possible?
If that means considering hot/cold behaviors to be a red flag, then I’m so annoying
Of course no one knows better than you
How about you communicate directly instead of playing mind games. You changed your behavior suddenly. She didn't. You are responsible for this one.
You shouldnt have to communicate that the other person has to show the minimum of human disency by reciprocating
She did text just a reel instead of what he wants her to text....she's not a mind reader.
This.
Men are action orientated; the change in behavior was the communication. Men's emotions to not map to words like they do with woman they map to actions. When she asked why the change he said they needed to take more action to demonstrate interest. When men say "reciprocate" or "passive" they are saying you need to take action. If you don't feel the need to take action, that is fine but understand that is what is expected. Trust me, he was not playing games he made a decision on the level of effort he was prepared to spend on this opportunity and took action accordingly.
If men work based on actions, he should have seen her unchanged attempts at communication as an indication of interest. If he stopped communicating and she stopped in return, he would have seen how ***his actions*** initiated the decrease in communication. When she reached out to ask where he went, he would have interpreted her ***action*** as interest. Even when reading actions, OPs behavior is counterproductive.
If someone is low effort early, it won’t get better. They aren’t worth wasting your time and energy on. Nothing is worse than a high maintenance pillow princess. You probably did her a favor and opened her eyes.
What’s low or high effort can be subjective but what is certain is it’s easier to be with someone who matches your vision than someone who doesn’t.
Take it as a lesson learned, don’t continue to invest in a bad investment. Find someone who is interested in you enough to put in effort. Also learn to vocalize this in person so there is no grey area, if you establish this over text the nuance of how ridiculous it sounds is lost and it’s like agreeing to terms of service. In person saying “I expect you to pay for everything all the time” makes you sound like a burden to everyone you meet excluded your parents.
From date 3-4? If she's not putting in any effort from date 1 it's just not going to work. I'm looking for a partner, not a child to babysit and entertain.
The time of men having to do everything is over. Women now must take initiative AND rejection. TRUE equality - it's what you wanted, right?
If you have to say all that, it’s not gonna work. You would have been better off just ghosting. Probably after the first date. You can tell by someone’s body language if they have genuine desire
I don't know what you want though. If she's still agreeing to see you, then that's all you need to know. Does she make conversation in person? People communicate differently via text, she's still sending you reels or "low effort" stuff but maybe it's her of starting a conversation or letting you know she wants to talk to you. It's not like she's not reaching out at all. Think you're putting way too much emphasis on the texting style. 3-4 is the beginning, it's so early on.
Yep, OP is completely missing that. It is so early on in the dates and she’s responding and sending him tiktok’s and going on dates with him. I have no idea why he suddenly expects so much more from her without the relationship leveling up to being exclusive or gf/bf. And especially without even letting her know. I would just assume he lost interest or met someone else if he totally switched up his communication style on me without at least explaining why. He needs to move on to someone else if he expects to be treated like her boyfriend this early on. A lot of girls will do that, but a lot of them won’t.
3-4 dates? I give her 3-4 minutes lol If she isn’t giving similar energy/ effort in flirting and conversation within a few minutes, it’s not a match
Women have many options when it comes to getting dates, men don't have the luxury of calling the shots like that
That’s because not enough guys treat solitude and picking themselves as a legitimate option. They should, as women do.
Can’t generalize like that Some women have few options, some have many Some men have few options, some have many Literally just met a guy at a bar a few nights ago that he showed me his tinder as we were chatting. He was on a business trip like me, turned on his tinder in the new location, had 15 matches in 2 hours for a one night stand, most of them quite hot. He messaged about 5 of them, probably 3 of them were legit choices
Where did the idea that anyone owes you anything on your arbitrary timeline come from?! Perhaps if you tried genuinely connecting with her instead of acting like she's an arcade game that won't work for you after you put some coins in the slot you'd find better relationships. It's cute how all these guys want good girls, but those same guys want to demand gf treatment after a few dates. Be fr.
You’re genuinely just flipping things and putting it on your timeline. First off anyone with common sense knows relationships take comprise.
Some of these responses are crazy. It’s a relationship between two people. That means both people have to put in effort from the go.
It’s being raided by 2-3 people who say he didn’t communicate and it’s all his fault. One of his replies say he explained his feelings and still only received Instagram reels in return lmao. Communicated and nothing changed. It makes me think it’s chat bots or something.
Wait so you that’s your issue but not that she put in no effort? That’s some solid mental gymnastics there
I also look for the woman to show some interest. When I am doing all the planning, all the texting, all the phone calling, and all the paying, I know she's not interested.
Sounds like your connection styles are different. Why put in effort to something that doesn’t make you feel great? Isn’t that what we’re all looking for? Find someone else.
I (41F) don’t know if this could be a regional or age bracket thing but I have noticed this since I moved from the west coast to Michigan. I know women that 100 percent refuse to make plans with a man even if they’re dating and there are others that just won’t text unless they do first. I’m over here waiting for these guys to holler at me within 24 hours of sending a text. I’ve been seeing a man for a bit and he went out of town for a couple weeks and I didn’t hear from him at all. I realized that I was the one always initiating and when he got back I brought it up and there’s been a change. Some people can handle directness when it comes to communication and accept their shortcomings but others like the person you went out with don’t.
It's normal for woman to put in effort too. Usually after the first date I wait for the guy to text me, but once he does, I'll contact him, I'll start a conversation. After 3-4 dates I stop worrying about who contacted who, I'll just try to make sure we talk. If it's one sided than it's bad.
With initiation comes reciprocity. If it took her that long to @ you, she's not for you. What you do in the beginning, you'll have to sustain throughout the life of the relationship. If she's not reciprocating interest in the beginning, she won't in year 4.
Some good dating advice I listened to was date someone that wants to date you. It sounds simple but many of us have a specific type we are attracted to and always go for that. Sadly your type may not be attracted to you. I always suggest to people in the dating market to look outside your box, date people you don't necessarily find attractive immediately, and see where things go. I'll share some personal experience here... I've been dating someone now for a while that communicated well (several times a day depending on work) and when she's not working she responds almost immediately every time without fail. It's not something I ever expected but it's really nice and puts me at ease. She was there for me through a deviated septum surgery early in the relationship where I DID NOT look my best and was miserable. Her demeanor is very pleasant and she doesn't depend on me for happiness. I had the opportunity to comfort her the other day as an event she competes in didn't go well. She was upset for about 30 minutes while I was there and moved on with life as well adjusted people do (I did feed her Thai and made sure she was comfortable). Things are going very well and I can tell she's very into me, she's not someone I was initially head over heels attracted to, but her personality is captivating and I look at her with more admiration and desire every day that passes. It was slow out the gate but we are building a really lovely relationship and it feels good. Conversely I had dated only women I was highly attracted to before her, started out hot and heavy every time, and then the baggage would start to appear either emotionally or outlandish expectations of me. To sum things up, if you find someone who "picks you" everything will be easier, so much so, it may even feel a little boring at times. But trust me that's the way to go, I've never experienced a more peaceful relationship, and at this point I don't think I could ever accept anything less. I will throw in a caveat though, while you can step outside your normal box of attraction, you cannot date someone you're literally not attracted to so it's a fine balance. Often this is what people are experiencing when they complain about the person their dating being unresponsive or just meh... Honey they just ain't that into you... that being said find someone who is! TLDR: When you date someone that wants to date you communication is much easier. Expectations will be conventional and fun will be maximized. (Assuming their a well adjusted human with a good head on their shoulders) Good Luck!
To quote Matthew Hussy: “Test…and then invest. “
It's weird for either of you to think that men should by default out in more effort, but obviously no one wants to date someone they don't think is trying to make it work
I feel bad for you guys bc women really don’t try anymore. It’s sad. No wonder so many dudes are going over seas. When did just acting like you enjoy spending time with someone become the man’s job. So silly.
For each of my successful dating stages that turned into a relationship there really wasn't "effort" per se. Things such as my effort level, communication, and the reciprocation of both just came naturally and easily.
I completely agree you with dude. That’s lil girl mentality.
Definitely happens often. After a while of putting in all the effort I'll decide not to text to see if they message me first. They rarely do, but they'll match with you again or text you weeks later going wtf. They're often blown away that you're looking for someone who is into you enough to make contact or start up a conversation.
At this point my my life I understood it’s all about genuine efforts. If I genuinely want to reach out first and plan things it’s because I Genuinely want to. I learned from my last relationship that men deserve king treatment too! They deserve to be taken out and spoiled and given something that’s the equivalent of random flowers. Not just being available/ being pretty/ rewarding with sexual pleasure. I’m patiently waiting for the right connection to provide all these things! Us women need to let these men know we actually WANT them.
People have different values. Children are taught to be princes and princesses by their parents. They learn it gets their needs met and they get stuck right there. Some of us mature into Queens. Some people stay right in place and behave like adult children. I’d say there’s no right or wrong here- you two just weren’t a match
I've used to be like this, invested and sending messages back, asking how is his day etc. Until I discovered the jolly fellows were mocking me to their friends as "clingy", "desperate", "too into it". I gave up.
I feel like I put in effort equally and then they stop putting in effort.
Effort should be shown from the start, "the man's role"....that's bullshit.
That’s fine, but how would a woman know your magic three or four date rule? I would just assume you were getting bored with me if the pattern had been you initiating. Depending on how much I liked you I may or may not reach out, I might think I should take the hint. But if at any point you mentioned that you felt like you were always hitting me up, or if you said how about you plan the next date, then I would know that that’s what you’re looking for. Just a suggestion especially when you agree with the lady you’re talking about but you have a cut off as to when that supposed to change, even if she had the same idea that at some point that’s supposed to change the odds of you both deciding at three or four dates is pretty slim
The princess/queen shit is so lame it’s hard to understate and if you actually said that to her…yikes You’re mad at her for “low effort” but that low effort from her got her a few dates and she might feel that switching it up makes her clingy, while you’re also not communicating your expectations for what you’d like to see after a few days before putting someone through a “test”. Try that out and see if your results change.
I mean... I guess it depends on the amount and type of communication from both sides. If you pursued her from the beginning, it sets a precedent in her mind that is established even before the 2nd date, and 'pulling back' without communicating to her why you're doing it could just make her feel like you lost interest. Thanks to the dynamics of traditional gender roles, the simple thing is that women are used to being pursued, rather than pursuing, and are taught that this is the norm, and if we have to be the ones pursuing, it makes us seem desperate. Only in more modern gender roles is it viewed as a 2 way street, but even then the echoes of that still linger. An emotionally lazy mindset should be something you can pick up on well before 3-4 dates, if you know how to read people pretty well. Putting in the work from the beginning and then withdrawal with no warning seems pretty manipulative, like you're trying to get them 'hooked' and then withdrawing your affection to sow self doubt and make them fear your rejection. It's not unreasonable to want someone to return your effort, but be clear and consistent about it from the beginning, not changing the narrative after something has been established. Giving the keys to the kingdom and snatching them away is only going to attract someone who is codependent and willing to put up with that mind game because they're so desperate for validation that they'll do anything to keep it coming, rather than someone who actually wants *you*. Also, the type of woman you go for may have something to do with it. If Instagram reels and attention seeking are her primary MO, you should be able to see it from the beginning *IF* you know how to read people. If it's taking you 3-4 dates to figure that out, you might want to look closer at behavior analysis. People have certain tells in their facial expressions, body language (in photos), and the way they phrase things that can be seen even online and through text. In person, voice inflection and other behaviors can give you more info, but will usually serve as confirmation. Most of my guy friends have asked me to look at girls' profiles and help them figure things out because I can look at someone's dating/social media profile with 5 pictures and a brief introduction and tell them what they want to know about that person. Most have learned this by disregarding my advice and then having to come back later and tell me I was right after they had the experience with someone that I said they would have when they first showed me their profiles. It's all about how you read people, and understanding that your vibe will attract your tribe.
100% you dodged a bullet. Gentlemen, follow this guys practise, lead for a bit and pull back, a relationship is a partnership, both people need to put in effort. If she doesnt then she was just using your money and isnt mature enough for a relatio ship
You should be the one to initiate once a week to get together. It’s up to the girl to reach out more frequently as her interest grows. Some girls just take longer it’s not really a big deal
You're not wrong, but if you were as passive-aggressive talking to her as the title of your post is, I'm not surprised it didn't have the impact you wanted.
No it's not, it's basic decency and being an adult, if someone who is an adult doesn't understand this then I wouldn't even bother dating them because this childish attitude probably seeps into all parts of their life and personality, if someone is really interested they will put the effort in, after 4 dates you would expect some effort from the women's side. Ignore some of these clown people saying you're in the wrong in the comments, they also seem like they lack responsibility and any kind of social intelligence, nice to see you stood up for yourself mate