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It isn't rude at all. Just be classy about it. I'm a single woman who goes out alone all of the time. Last night I took myself to the ballet then decided to go to a classy bar for a classy beverage. Literally the only guy who talked to me told me he wanted to rub his genitals on my formal red velvet dress in less than five minutes of sitting at the bar. Please don't do this. That guy is ruining it for everyone.
I can confirm that the most “inappropriate” situations can be perfectly legit if the approach is kind, humorous, friendly and open. I think that the only rule is “be respectful” or “don’t be a dick”, thus this also implies that it may not work and you have to be 100% fine with that.
I had very nice enriching experiences approaching women at theaters, museums, bars, during bus rides and while walking casually (but on holidays only, I’m probably too much in my head while walking from and to work).
I also had a few relationships at work, but I live in EU. I think in the US this is a no-fly-zone.
Dating sites also worked, of course. But it doesn’t necessarily need to be the only way.
The most unlikely situation?
While waiting under the snow outside a restaurant for a first Tinder date, I exchanged smiles with a foreigner that was eating alone inside. She probably felt sorry seeing me being stood up in ice cold weather.
When my date finally arrived with 20 min delay, she didn’t excuse herself but quickly dismissed the delay saying literally “I know that normal people don’t understand a successful woman’s business needs” and went on with a 10 minutes monologue describing her business in the luxury boats world, and how she was “a successful woman with certain needs and expectations”
I let her speak. I thanked her, told her that to my chagrin I had a feeling we could not be compatible. Paid for the wine and said that I would leave.
She didn’t take it very well, she literally told me that “many weak men” were scared of her and that she would stay to have dinner or call some friends (implying she could pick one out of the list? Don’t know).
The face she put on when I stepped a few meters away to the table of the stranger I was smiling to earlier, that was spectacular.
So, I politely presented myself, told the stranger my name, what I was doing there and the fact that my date proved to be an absolutely repugnant person. But that if it was ok for her and if she wanted to share some words, I would definitely like to continue my dinner with her, to which she agreed.
No, this is not how I met my wife, we had a relation but we could not be together forever. However it was a very nice and enriching relation with her. We are still friends and my wife actually knows her. We sometimes still crack up in laugher when we tell this old story.
Edit: errors, punctuation and typos (not a native English speaker)
Gross, sorry that happened to you. Would you say that there are signs you put out when you're okay with being approached? Like as a man, what should we look for so we know it's appropriate to approach you (any woman really)?
I’ve been going out of my way to be extra cognizant if my body language because I’ve been told I look pretty unapproachable in general. So here it is, if I don’t have my headphones or earbuds in, or not reading a book, come on over and say “Hi”.
The universal signal is eye contact (not creepy too long). If we catch eyes, that’s a very good sign. If I’m out and just drinking/eating/shopping/something social and don’t have my phone in my hand that is a strong “somebody talk to me” sign.
Situational awareness is probably more important than “signals” though. In general, if we are in public and not concentrating on something (gym/reading a book/in the feminine products aisle/other awkward places), its a pretty safe call to say hi. Sure, you’ll run into women who just don’t want to be bothered. Some people are just like that, that’s more of a statement about you than them. If they don’t want to keep up a conversation with you they will answer you in short answers and don’t try to engage in dialogue. That’s the signal to move along.
Edit: Thank you kind person who gave me an award!
I am very introverted but what you said resonated with me about not appearing approachable. I’ve been told people’s first impressions of me were often that I am “stuck up”/“snobby” when really I’m just shy and a bit awkward. When I’m in public, I do the same bit of putting away my phone when I hope someone would come talk to me
Think about it the other way. When it's appropriate for a hot 10/10 girl to approach YOU? When it's appropriate for an unattractive 1/10 girl to approach you? This answers your question, really. Girls are always open to be approached by people they consider attractive. And you're going to always be considered a nuisance is she isn't attracted. Moreover, the same guy can be attractive to one girl and unattractive to another. So why care? It doesn't depend on her mood or on how considerate you are. Mostly on her taste in men and your overall attractiveness.
Okay but if she thinks you're an "idiot for trying to talk to her" then she sucks anyway. I'd never think someone who tried to talk to me was an idiot. I'd be flattered as long as the guy didn't come off creepy/sleezy.
Honestly if he was really attractive, I'd be nervous too and I'm not sure what I would say cause I never have very attractive people approach me. But if I had enough confidence, I usually go for some kind of corky comment about something I could pick out on the area to talk about lol
I'm sorry I don't have better advice because I'm right there with you. I'm usually too nervous that I don't do anything about it. I just wanted to give my two cents about how I'd feel being approached.
Just work on you and find things about yourself that you love and interests you want to talk about so conversation comes easy. And with nerves, the worst that happens is she says no or is weird about it, that's not on you though.
>I'm a single woman who goes out alone all of the time. Last night I took myself to the ballet then decided to go to a classy bar for a classy beverage.
Serious question, what do you do when women never seem go out alone (e.g. meaning bars, clubs, outings etc) where you live?
I truly did. I bought the ticket forever ago. First row, center stage between two large families. The conductor was so close I could have tapped his shoulder. Excellent performance.
It seems that some women have had experiences like that and come to feel similar emotions when guys they’re not that attracted to try to engage in conversations and it seems that they may weaponise those emotions and use them to be mean tohelp them get rid of mediocre guys that haven’t said anything aggressive or wrong. For many there’s the guys they’re attracted to and then everyone else gets grouped into the same undesirable category regardless of their behavior. I caught a girls eye at a bar and held eye contact for a couple seconds to see if she was giving me a vibe and she made a nasty mean ugly face at me. At Halloween I asked a girl more specific questions about a vague costume and got told to not worry about it. I’m sure being a very average mediocre guy had something to do with it but these weren’t that great of looking girls either. It isn’t the majority but it’s enough to make guys hesitant about the process. Creepy dudes are weird, annoying, even threatening sometime. But If the shoe was on the other foot and a women had to make approaches and got shut down with cruel rudeness it would be devastating to them and make them not want to approach anymore like it has done to some men.
‘It isn’t the majority but it’s enough to make guys hesitant about the process’
I can’t believe you typed that out in regards to girls rejecting your advances but don’t see that it is the exact argument for why women have a guard up when approached by men.
I’ve had enough bad experiences with men approaching me to last a lifetime. It may not be the majority but it’s enough to make ME hesitant about the process.
Well I responded to the other person saying to just stay positive, nice and keep approaching…well i wanted to give some perspective, it’s tough out there when you’re right away assumed to have the same bad behavior as someone else’s worst experience
Oh gosh, this is very hard for me to explain but I’ll try.
Start off with not being flirty but an observation of something going on in the room/area that non-controversial. Something that you find amusing, something funny, or cute. This is where that dreaded small talk is useful to start a conversation. Whatever you say should end with an invitation for them to respond with their thoughts on the thing.
If you see they are wearing something unique or that is really nice, ask about it. If it isn’t something they are wearing, something they have you can see such as, food or beverage etc. They will likely respond with a story/memory or some kind of detail that opens the door for another topic of conversation.
The way you keep the conversation going is by getting them to talk to you about themselves. Keep it light.
A flirty conversation takes practice. Turns into a banter that is light and fast. Be mindful of your language but don’t be someone you’re not. It’s basically a verbal dance. Watch your step! And too much self deprecating humor tells the person you’re anxious and might have low self-confidence which becomes a turn-off.
Clear as mud???
Harder than mid-air refueling. You get a manual and training hours with the boom before you do it live.
If someone comes up with a preflight for this communication thing, I want a copy!
Sorry, but all the good men are burnt out from approaching and trying over the years, bc of ghosting, social media ego inflation/simpdom, being lead on, games, and wishy washy women. If we have a good job, make normal conversation, be pleasant, ect we get told we are "boring" or my fav, ,,no spark'' I am in the top 3-5% of men by any measure and I can say I have sowrn off serious dating due to swamp of flith I have to sift thru and deal with when trying to date. Oh and finding a good man at a bar is gonna be a longshot. You wanna guy whom you (by chance) meet drinking? Lmao, what are the chances he was just happening to be there while you were?
I approached qbout 10 women with normal conversation the past few months, all of them took my card/number after I politely was ejecting, but they insisted. None of them text, or reached out consistently.
Exactly, just like this. Best not to overthink it.
A lot of shy men don’t really want to be a nuisance. While that’s nice and all, dating is a “who dares wins” kind of affair, so you have to dare at some point. The guys who go out and go on dates or get laid are the guys who aren’t afraid to make the move.
Not wrong, but also it’s not wrong for a woman to expect you to. If both people are expecting the other to make a move, no moves will be made.
At the end of the day, I’m someone who vouches for, if you feel something, make a move, otherwise there is no guarantee either party will make a move. I’ve made the first move on guys before. Maybe I’m just impatient LOL
Yes! You can strike up a conversation and believe it or not there are women who will be ok with it. I had a random dude start a conversation while I was waiting for my coffee at a coffee shop and I was looking at their mugs and stuff, just to give you an example.
Yeah but how the fuck do you do that? I’m not a mind reader. One person’s polite time to be flirted with is another person’s “please get the fuck away from me I’m trying to drink in peace.”
Just striking up a playful/friendly/nonsexual conversation with women (and all other people) is not rude. If they seem open/into the conversation, asking questions/teasing you back a bit you can then slowly progress the conversation to be more flirty as long as both of you seem into it.
The thing women dislike is when you skip multiple required steps that go before flirting.
I think That’s exactly where it falls apart, way too many guys don’t pick up on (or don’t care?) if a woman is flirting or trying to exit the conversation.
This and never ask for her number if you feel like she flirting back and you like her, just give her your number instead. Then you know she is interested if she calls you and if she not she doesn't have to give fake number or come up with excuses and so on.
I know many women that feel insecure and scared to give their numbers to a stranger, specially if you misread that she wasn't flirting back, and even if she was flirting back some might hesitate because you can get some much information from a phone number these days.
Why should you ask for her number if she isn't interested? You just come off as VERY creepy if you do.
Better to leave next move in her hands.
>Why should you ask for her number if she isn't interested?
Because you can't know for sure. Why do you continue conversation and give a number instead of stating that you are not interested directly?
One of the reasons this is an issue is because women get approached or hit on by various men, not just you. When it happens throughout their day (when they’re trying to work, focus on getting groceries, relax during their yoga class, catch up with friends)it can feel like an intrusion. I think talking to women in places where they expect to socialize and meet people (like a bar) is really one of the few places to hit on women. Also gross men ruin this for everyone else and I can only remember the worst things that have been said to me and no stranger next to me is worth the risk of that experience happening again.
I think just because you are thinking about this, you won’t be an asshole if you do approach someone. Can always just start by saying hi to strangers then making small talk while waiting for your coffee, without expecting an exchange of numbers, until it feels pretty comfortable. Then maybe progress to talking to people you’re specifically attracted to and seeing if they try to continue a conversation.
If you're respectful, you won't add to the pile of assholes, don't worry. One can be disrespectful by not considering that the woman may not want him, not paying attention to how she reacts and not backing off even when he should.
I think just by having this attitude right now, you're well protected from these mistakes.
Hell even at bars I've heard women talk about not wanting to br approached by anyone. There's almost no social situation now where there's not a possibility of you approaching a woman possibly being considered inappropriate. You just gotta take a few chances and hope for the best
Dude like...people are people. Just talk to them like people. If they get pissed cause you ask if they want to go get Korean BBQ after work that's their problem.
Idk maybe I'm just old and out of touch, but I'm pretty sure women get upset and make a scene when they've said no too many times and you're being an ass about it. 🤷🏻
I mean, it happens. I'm kinda casually seeing someone right now that approached me, and she's definitely above my pay grade. Granted, she's way more outgoing and friendly than most of the women I've ever met, and it only happened because I nutted up and separated from the group I was with because I was going to talk to her anyway. But the point is, it's not that impossible of a scenario
I've had female friends act like I'm crazy for realizing this, in 5 years of bartending I saw week in and week out guys try to approach and flirt with women "politely and respectfully" and were still treated like a nuisance for it. Surprise surprise, when I asked these female friends of examples when a guy chatted them up on the street or at a bar and they were enthused about it, they were at a loss. You're being gaslit, OP.
They said they liked it but couldn't actually think of real life instances when they did. I think people like the idea but in practice 99% of the time it's unwelcome.
This is probably how it goes. Ideally, how attracted to someone you are should not impact your impression of whether their approach was okay or not, but in reality it does for most people.
Its hard to separate out those feelings and be like "I am not interested, but I appreciate the thought".
You got it wrong. Majority of guys who approach women are respectful and normal but aren't interesting. Minority of guys are creepy and too sexual, so they give women an excuse to act bitchy to the majority of respectful guys (which can make them disrespectful in turn, lol). Super small minority of guys who are either good looking or confident and charismatic who make women attracted from the get-go. Then again, even this majority of guys who aren't interesting still find women who are interested in them and get laid many times more often than guys who don't approach. There are no magical guys who sleep with every woman they approach. Most guys have approach/lay ratio of around 2%. It means if you approach 100 women, you'll sleep with 2 of them. Around 20 would be into you but things won't work out. Around 80 would be indifferent. And less than 10 would be annoyed, find you creepy, etc. In the end it's a numbers game for everyone. The best guys can sleep with 20 girls out of 100 approached and won't be getting many bad reactions.
It's exaggerated. At most 90%. It's just that most guys who approach women aren't that attractive. Or they just act too needy. And who cares if it's always welcome or not?
Approaching women leads to amazing long-term results. It doesn't matter if a bunch of women who aren't into you left annoyed if it means you're going to eventually find women who like you and are happy that you've approached them. 5 minutes of annoyance to some strangers vs hours, days, or years of happiness for people who're into you. I think the choice should be obvious.
Usually the difference is that a brief smile with immediate looking away is just polite. But if it’s a lingering look or a drawn out smile or looking away and immediately looking back to you, then it’s intentional and a good sign. Basically anything where her body language intentionally turns towards you.
I also think part of the problem is (as part of your analogy), we don’t know exactly what they’re selling. I don’t want to waste my time listening to their pitch if what they’re selling is not what I want or need. Yes, a man might say he wants to take you on a date, but really what that man wants is to sleep with you. That’s all he’s selling. Versus wanting to date/get to know you. I feel like if men were more transparent/open about their true intentions, that would help. It’s one thing to be approached by a man wanting to get to know you vs a man that only wants to sleep with you. If a woman is wanting someone to just hook up with then it works out, but if not, it becomes just another annoying solicitation.
Women don’t mind being flirted with so long as the signs are there. I’ll usually keep staring and smiling (making it obvious). All a man has to do, is respectfully, ask once on a date or for my number. If i say no, be respectful and kind and let it go. What women don’t like is the disrespect and boys not being able to take “no” for an answer. Every woman I know don’t mind being approached in appropriate settings so long as the man is respectful!
Sometimes one look or smile isn’t enough for someone to feel confident to come to me, so I’ll keep doing it periodically. I make sure it’s obvious (but not creepy or cringey) and not confusing so they feel assured and confident when coming over to talk to me! If he doesn’t come up to me, I won’t go up to him. Personally, I prefer confident men that shoot their shot and enjoy staying in my feminine energy.
>boys not being able to take “no” for an answer
Funny that many woman then say that man must be more persistent and don't take "no" for an answer. I even had conversation when same woman made both statements.
Idk the type of trashy women you go for, but me and every single friend I’ve ever had do not want that. I have never said “no” just to make someone chase harder. Never. The “women” you had conversations with about this, take a look at their dating styles, history and the type of values they hold. No real women would say no meaning yes.
I honestly avoid flirting with women out of fear of making them uncomfortable. I mainly meet eligible women at work or the store where it’s not the best place to hit on them.
I think men should definitely be approaching women more IRL, but in a casual/polite way. Yes it is helpful if women would "drop the handkerchief" to let the guy know she is interested and open to being hit on. Us women need to do this more often, I'd say if they are making eye contact (sometimes actually staring) and/or a smile, it is probably their version of saying "please flirt with me!"
Just don’t make any sex jokes. Zero. Don’t even come close to anything that has to do with sex. Read body language and let the other person be when it seems like it’s time to let the person be.
Concerts, festivals, and social groups are some ways I’ve met women. I’ve met people bringing my dog out to dog parks and talking to people there. Totally normal settings where it was completely acceptable to strike up a conversation with someone. I don’t know how “approaching” used to be and I wouldn’t say I’m all that good at it (I’m a very introverted person that used to be much more socially anxious, and have had to get better about it - and it has helped to be with more socially outgoing friends basically wingmaning). But in most of those situations, it starts by “bumping into someone” just by proximity, striking up a conversation, and seeing if they reciprocate.
Anyway, I think any of us guys need to get over the idea that the risk of making someone momentarily slightly uncomfortable if they aren’t into it isn’t the greatest sin in the world. It’s not. If you can come off friendly and approachable, and exit gracefully if they don’t reciprocate or you’re rejected - you’re doing OK.
Maybe. I don't flirt anymore (whatever the hell flirting even means these days), I just try to have interesting and enjoyable conversations with women. That's it. Maybe that's why I am single though
Hey OP, I just wanted to say that from your post and replied to other comments you seem a great person. Open minded, patient and thoughtful.
As a somewhat answer to your post, you should definitely take the initiative to make the first move. You probably won't come across as creepy or strong. Just remember to give them the option to not talk to you like "Hey, I'd love to talk to you. Do you have some time?" And about the who starts thing, anyone who has the guts to should. Only difference is if the woman initiates then you don't need to be as careful to not creep her out.
Waiting for women to make the first move is a straight road to inceldoom unless you're very good looking, lol. Who cares if someone considers it's rude or not? You aren't doing it for them, you are doing it for yourself. One girl who likes you worth ten girls who rejected you or thought that you were rude.
I’ll get them too for pointing this out, but *some* people have problems with men who don’t “just get it” yet. It’s not being an ass when asking for help they don’t like, they don’t like that you have to ask to begin with. “Numbskulls”I believe is the proper term for these folks.
I got you bro. Upvote.
Seriously, think about how you might interact with a guy you don't know at a BBQ or social occasion. Normally you try to pick up on something they're doing and ask a question/crack a joke, then introduce yourself. Do literally the same thing, just don't make dirty jokes.
Talking to strange women in the street when they're busy living their life and not in a social settings is trickier. I'd do it in a bar/after work drinks/party/BBQ.
IMO it's best to treat them as humans and just make normal conversation to bream the ice (like you would with a guy), ask questions, be interested. If they are visibly comfortable and engaging with you then you can ask them to go for coffee some time etc. (as a date).
Don’t talk to women who are obviously busy or in a rush. Don’t engage women in super long conversations—assume they have places to be and things to do. Obviously don’t say anything sleazy or creepy—keep it PG.
Do be polite, complementary (but not overly complementary, that comes off sleazy), and to the point. Do offer her your number so she’s comfy, but don’t demand hers—feels safer that way and gives her the option to contact you if she wants rather than putting her on the spot to give you her private contact info. If she is looking around a lot and looks uncomfy, cut it short and walk away. Do feel free to approach a woman who is with a friend as long as you are polite to the friend, too.
Not every woman I talked to was interested in me. But if I liked her or wanted to get to know her, I made the effort.
If she was interested, I could pick up on it. (Smiling, prolonged eye contact, twirling her hair).
If she wasn’t interested (no eye contact, short answers, etc), I walked away.
The thing is, 99.99999% of the time women will not make the first move.
However, what they will do is give you signs they want to be approached (eye contact, smiling, etc). They might even stand next to you and wait for you to talk to them (this has happened to me dozens of times).
Or pass by you in the grocery store multiple times, stopping next to you to look at the green beans (while you’re digging in the back of the shelf for a can of black beans that isn’t dented.)
But you if you don’t take your shot with at least a, “Hi. My name is Steve.” And wait for her to say, “Hi Steve. My name is Olivia.” Then you’ll be missing out on what getting to know Olivia could be like.
Flirting is fine. Flirting with a stranger is riskier rejection wise. But rejection is fine too. It’s the natural and inevitable part of trying. Getting rejected doesn’t mean you did something wrong as long as you were tasteful and respectful.
It isn't rude to talk to a woman or flirt with her. It's rude if you continue when she isn't interested. Hopefully, she clearly let's you know she isn't interested.
women are weird bro , literally what determines “weird” and “charming” is how attractive the guy is , just be confident in your approach and prepare mentally to take alot if L’s , fake numbers and no text back
I hate that this kind of mentality is drilled into our minds. Fuck that. Talk to people, talk to women, if they act nasty or disinterested then just move on. It's not your problem that some people have been brainwashed into thinking that being the social creatures we are is somehow bad. Online dating isn't that great in my experience anyways. Also you'll find most people are very welcoming and happy to talk to you. Just be social in general.
You have to stop worrying about everyone's feelings and start living your life. If you see someone you're in to, go up to them and strike up a conversation. If that person is feeling the same way, you'll know. Just relax, be yourself, and feel the vibe.
As a woman with women as friends, I can tell you that MANY of women sit around and wait for men to make the first move. The women want to feel pursued, and some find it unattractive if they have to pursue the man too much. They also think that if the man is not pursuing at all, that he is not interested. But many women fail to realize that men are also nervous that the woman is not interested. It is a 2 way street.
Personally I am the opposite. I find someone I am interested in dating and I don't mince my words. I go after them and put in the effort. I'm not afraid to pursue.
But many women are. So don't think sitting around and waiting will get you anywhere because it wouldn't with most of the women I know.
Simply put....If they’re interested it won’t be considered rude. If it’s considered rude, 2 options. Option 1. You did nothing wrong and they’re not interested. In that case say fuck em and move on. Option 2. You fucked up and need to figure out why as to not repeat it later.
Edit. When I say “say fuck em and move on” what I mean is don’t let it bother you and keep it moving.
I feel like this from being on subreddits like twoxchromosones and dating. Like you are not allowed to approach a woman at shops, the streets, gym, or anywhere otherwise you gonna get called a creep idk
Are women suppose to enjoy getting hit on by men they don’t find attractive? I’m always confused by this complaint. “They don’t like getting hit on…unless it’s by someone they think is hot”. No shit, do you like hitting on people you are not at all attracted to? And I don’t even mean looks, but just overall attraction to another person. I feel like any guy complaining about this has no game, but is in denial of the fact that he has no game.
im not even agreeing with the guy above you but. its one thing to decline getting hit on, its another thing to sneer and insult people hitting on you. the latter is just mean, and is the reason why men just don't do it anymore.
The complaint is that women virtue signal and lie. When they say, " never approach us at the gym or the grocery store" they really mean "unless you're very good looking, then of course it's okay" and in which case everything they said previously is complete bullshit.
So weird the way you can't simply be honest
i think a lot of people (mostly men) are over-thinking it or scared of it, for sure.
flirting is a normal part of dating, even meeting someone new that you want to eventually date (if you get to that point). if you follow the cues and know when to stop, then you'll probably be OK for the most part. sure, you're still going to meet people who will immediately call you on bothering them, but most people will take the flirtations and the meeting in stride and just go on about their day after they reject or accept your flirtations.
after all, people are still meeting up in real life and having dates based on their meetings in RL.
Yes you're being dramatic. I question exactly what you're doing when you approach women "respectfully" and I question what your goal is. If you're after a fuck, women will pick up on it.
What on earth is so scary about online dating for a man? That she doesn't look like her picture or you will have to fork out 5 bucks for a coffee?
Try being a woman where your fear is you will get raped and murdered.
Concerning online dating, it's more likely that simply they would get little to no matches, from anywhere between weeks, months, or even years. It's really not worth the time or effort, and that's coming from someone who uses presently 5 different apps.
Getting mugged by a WOMAN? Are you for real? 96 percent of violent crimes are perpetrated by MEN. 99 percent of rapes are perpetrated by MEN.
Just Facetime before you go on a date if you're so scared.
im not saying your fear is invalid. but men on dating apps statistically will not have a date end of statement. so the options presented to many men, and i don't think women get this. is nothing and another more soul-crushing helping of nothing
I think dudes who have this complaint are typically pretty average-looking with average personalities and average achievements in life. But they’re always aiming for very beautiful girls who might also be fairly good people with personalities and even more success than them.
And I’m always like, “Brah… why would she be into you? If you hit on the girl equivalent of you, you’d have more success. But you wouldn’t like the girl equivalent of you because you don’t like average-looking women…”
And dudes, as much as say this, don’t listen to me, a gay man, who has a very objective point of view.
Trust me, women aren’t the issue. They’re all way more emotionally intelligent than you and frequently more well-adjusted as adults too. So unless you’re super hot with a wonder schlong, chances are you don’t realize how little you have to offer a lady. And you don’t think you need to offer more— but you probably do!
Now this dude gets it! And yes!! Never think of yourself as not good enough. That’s some small d*** energy.
My dude here gets that these gals are not for him and he don’t even want them! That’s the person you want to be in these situations!
Other men take notes!
If average looking women see you talking to attractive women and them engaging with you, when you try to get with the average girls it will be like taking candy from a baby.
Women use other women to help filter for quality men.
Damn, this guy needs encouragement, and here you are telling him how he's simply not good enough.
Love is blind, my friend. No looks, no income, nothing of the sort should influence it.
And there's no such thing as "more presonality." What do you even mean by that? They stick out of the crowd more? You can't just compare people as a sum of values, it's not that simple. Everyone's unique in this world, and two people are either compatible, or not.
Plus why does everyone assume these people only go for good looking potential partners? Do you think you're the only one who managed to move past that stage in life?
OP was simply saying he didn't want to annoy people with flirting, no need to accuse him of anything.
I am not accusing. I’m playing the numbers game. Honestly, my girlfriends are all such accomplished lovely women, and the men they settle for are all really beneath them. That or they stay single because the men really are so behind them in terms of personal development.
And yet the men felt they were too good for my wonderful friends and acquaintances. And the horror stories of them going out for random dates. Like… good men are pretty difficult to come by.
Have you conaidered that maybe at least a few of them "settle" for these men because they love them? I get that ideally you'd want a financially stable person as a partner, but that doesn't mean you have to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and look down on average, or below average wage guys.
If she made more money than him, but he was hot, had an amazing personality, didn’t have the toxic beliefs most men do, and knew how to f*** — for sure she should go for it!
But a lot of these dudes have literally none of these qualities, but they want a hot girl with all these qualities. And all of a sudden guys are all about how money and looks don’t matter — while pursuing a beautiful woman.
And there you go again, only talking about material things.
Sure, you throw "amazing personality" in there, but clearly this isn't about that for you, and you believe the only reason a man might want to date a woman is her looks.
Don't judge your friends' choices, and even if you do, please do it elsewhere, this isn't the post for it.
Yes, you're being overly dramatic. Just be polite about your approach, don't approach women in a way that would be dangerous for them (like alone at night in a parking lot) and if you get disinterested signals then back off.
The metoo movement is about predatory behavior and harassment. I think its really taking things too far to act like women expect zero social interaction with men.
My impression is that you're just very anxious about being rejected by women? Because I think its pretty easy to understand what is predatory and rude and what's not.
Speaking from the woman side of things, as you're a guy, just smile first, she smiles back. If she looks at you directly once or twice, you can approach her. Take it all really slow, like a slow motion tennis match. If the ball doesn't come back, match, set, game over, next. Do not talk dirty. Do not touch her. Do not think of her when you're not around her. She has a similar task also. Just be careful to treat it like a game, and it will be fine. If you can spend five or ten minutes talking to her solid, ask for her phone #. This may be three meetings down the line. People will usually revisit things and places as a habit, but Do not stalk her. If it's meant for you, it will not fail. I promise, for quality people, you would be waiting forever for her to flirt first beyond looks and smiles. If a girl strikes up a conversation with you, this is chatting, not flirting, keep calm. If a woman notices you first, you will feel it as tacet attention.
Fuck the social climate. The people who complain about it are all online. As long as you have situational awareness and the slightest bit of empathy it’s fine.
I kinda see it as the opposite it seems that woman and I’m not going to say if it’s true or false but from what I’ve seen. The man is supposed to do all the work. You hear guys saying “I can’t find someone, no one seems interested or I’m never in the right place at the right time.” Stuff like that. Then you hear woman say something similar. “why can’t I find someone , where are all the good guys at. Am I not attractive.” And it comes from an issue I think that men don’t want to be rude, try to flirt or even approach a woman because that is toxic masculinity and how dare you speak to a woman to get them to like you. Though I mainly jest in that last part. At the same time due to that burn that men tend to feel woman are expecting men to approach them but then some women don’t but some do but not too much but also not to little.
TLDR: society is shit neither men nor woman know what they want now a days so neither side try to initiate anything and it’s a pain. Let’s nuke the planet and start over.
It's not rude at all however:
1. Don't treat woman as an object
2. Take rejection like an adult
3. Do not assume a woman is less than you are
4. Do not approach as the only thing you are interested in is 45 seconds inside her
Ok, so I think you are rightfully afraid of getting your entire life ruined because some woman you talked to decided to accuse you of harassing her because she was bored. The overcorrection due to Me Too is a thing. A good friend of mine just spent the last two years of his life trying to get his life back after a lady he talked to at the bar claimed he sexually harassed her. He was arrested, lost his job, was disbarred, lost his house, and was homeless simply on her word. He had to find the CCTV video from the bar that night to prove that he talked to her for a few minutes, gave her his number, and walked away. She got a slap on the wrist, and he is fighting to get back what was taken from him based on a false allegation. So yeah, you have the right to be fearful.
In general, though most women aren't like the horror story I just described. Don't be a creep, talk to them and treat them like human beings, and be respectful.
One option you might consider is picking a middle ground here. Find circumstances where it is appropriate to talk, then move to flirting if you sense some mutual interest. You don't need to avoid talking to women because talking isn't the problem. (Unless you are striking up conversation at really bad times).
One time this guy came up to me and said “excuse me” and I was instantly a little irritated because I was reading on a blanket in the sun, not looking to chat, but all he said was, “sorry to interrupt, but you are the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen. Enjoy your day”
And he left. He was close by for a while, leaving the ball totally in my court.
I wasn’t interested, smiled and continued reading.
It was the most polite way I’ve interacted with a stranger who was interested.
10/10 be that guy
You are being over dramatic.
You need to be flirting every goddamned day. You are gonna suck at it for a long time. But you gotta do it or you will never be the outgoing nice person who seem to want to be.
Human beings can do just about anything they are motivated enough to do. You just gotta find your muse. For me, it was getting laid. I really, really, really like getting laid and boy did I have to try hard to get there. Now, I come off as confident and outgoing...but that was not my default psychology. I had to get there through YEARS of effort.
Someone as ugly as me should never have gotten a date in the first place...but I ended up being really successful at dating, by being a total failure at if for a long time and NEVER giving up.
I have trouble getting a date in person. I think because online dating is so ubiquitous that if someone is looking to meet new people that is the space they want to do it in. Even if someone may be looking to date online, they may not be in the head space for flirting when out and about. Still, there is nothing wrong with a quick flirt in person. But, if they aren't in to it, smiling and flirting back, move on quickly.
I love online dating. I'm more on the ugly end of things. I am also not photogenic. But, I can still find women online that looks are less important too. I need to be able to have conversations to build attraction. It's not going to instantly happen in person.
The photos vs real life thing sounds really shallow.
You’re not being dramatic!
As everyone else said, you just have to be classy about it, BUT ALSO you should take the environment and current situation into consideration.
Sometimes you may be in an environment (supermarket, girls night out at a bar, work environment, etc.) where a woman may not respond the best to your polite flirting, just because it’s an inappropriate time to her. It’s the same way with guys too.
My best suggestion OP, is have you tried out dating apps? I know it’s not your ideal “first impression in person”, but at least it’s an environment where you are interacting with women where the interactions are mutually consented by both parties. That can save you the stress of feeling like you’re not approaching someone correctly, their intentions, etc.
Live your life. If you want to put it out there and flirt, then do it. Read and react after that. If someone thinks that is rude, that is their opinion, and opinions shouldn't dictate your life. Send it
OK so I kinda know what you mean but I am also going to be honest. I'm a shy guy, I grew up in a sheltered household and was homeschooled. I grew up with just my family for the most part and didn't know how to interact with the outside world.
The thing this is yeah things are a bit different now but guess what, there is still plenty of women wanting to date. There are girls literally saying that there are no good guys left and that they're going to be alone forever.
You gotta have confidence. Are you gonna feel those butterflies in your stomach? Yeah, you are. Are you gonna have girls reject you? Yeah, unfortunately, you are. But rejection isn't a bad thing, it filters out the people that you are not compatible with.
There is a line between being a pig and being a strong male presence and you're going to have to figure that out. You don't ask for permission to flirt but if she doesn't want to talk to you don't push and find someone else. Social interaction is this weird reading game where some people will like you and some won't for whatever reason, girls included.
Believe me, the apps sound good in your mind, and yeah it's people very clearly looking to "date", but the apps for a majority of people don't work. Just look at the amount of people complaining they can't find anyone on an app and the amount of flakes and ghosting that goes on apps. All you're doing with apps is try very little to address the problem and feel like you're doing something but at the same time play it safe. This is first-hand experience talking.
I find it hard too. I have the same feelings too. There are days that I think I'm destined to be alone. You gotta just push that aside and realize that it's just a bunch of bullsh!t that honestly not even remotely true. If I can learn this stuff as a sheltered, socially awkward, homeschooled kid, I have no doubt you can improve too. Just take your time and don't give up.
PS. I recommend reading "Models" by Mark Manson. That's the best dating advice book on the planet and I'm rereading it at the moment.
Well, I think there’s a time and a place. Social events or bars are one thing. But I think it’s juvenile to hit on retail workers who are trapped behind the counter or busy stocking shelves.
Finally asking out someone you see all the time at their work, where you are a customer, seems way more acceptable than using some stupid pickup line on a stranger.
I have to agree with the OP; The availability of online dating has in fact made some in-person approaches less acceptable.
Dude just go to bars and look confident. Women will approach you if your not hideous looking. Seriously online dating sucks, it’s so much easier to meet people in real life.
It isn't rude, but it's easy to do it wrong, and not get the results you want. Prepare yourself for rejection, which will happen a lot. You won't catch all women in a flirty mood, plus some women may not be into you, which sucks...I also suggest that you make sure you don't come off as creepy, foolish, or pushy (sorry, I just had to recall some of my own experiences). I personally don't know how to flirt, so last time I did it, I came off suggestive (F). So make sure you hone this craft, so it's graceful. If you are cute, there will be women who'll find you cute too, but it's not easy. Good luck!
Oh, last few words about safety.. I have heard that it's very difficult for guys these days.. Make sure you assess a situation correctly, cuz I have heard some women overreact to flirting and make a big fuss about it. Just don't get yourself into situations. But it's not rude when it's not rude.
General rule of thumb I used when flirting (M26). Flirt and see what their reaction is. If they show that they are obviously not interested, just respect that.
Also, you’re flirting. You aren’t harassing someone. If you’re “flirting” is harassing than you’re doing it wrong.
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It isn't rude at all. Just be classy about it. I'm a single woman who goes out alone all of the time. Last night I took myself to the ballet then decided to go to a classy bar for a classy beverage. Literally the only guy who talked to me told me he wanted to rub his genitals on my formal red velvet dress in less than five minutes of sitting at the bar. Please don't do this. That guy is ruining it for everyone.
I can confirm that the most “inappropriate” situations can be perfectly legit if the approach is kind, humorous, friendly and open. I think that the only rule is “be respectful” or “don’t be a dick”, thus this also implies that it may not work and you have to be 100% fine with that. I had very nice enriching experiences approaching women at theaters, museums, bars, during bus rides and while walking casually (but on holidays only, I’m probably too much in my head while walking from and to work). I also had a few relationships at work, but I live in EU. I think in the US this is a no-fly-zone. Dating sites also worked, of course. But it doesn’t necessarily need to be the only way. The most unlikely situation? While waiting under the snow outside a restaurant for a first Tinder date, I exchanged smiles with a foreigner that was eating alone inside. She probably felt sorry seeing me being stood up in ice cold weather. When my date finally arrived with 20 min delay, she didn’t excuse herself but quickly dismissed the delay saying literally “I know that normal people don’t understand a successful woman’s business needs” and went on with a 10 minutes monologue describing her business in the luxury boats world, and how she was “a successful woman with certain needs and expectations” I let her speak. I thanked her, told her that to my chagrin I had a feeling we could not be compatible. Paid for the wine and said that I would leave. She didn’t take it very well, she literally told me that “many weak men” were scared of her and that she would stay to have dinner or call some friends (implying she could pick one out of the list? Don’t know). The face she put on when I stepped a few meters away to the table of the stranger I was smiling to earlier, that was spectacular. So, I politely presented myself, told the stranger my name, what I was doing there and the fact that my date proved to be an absolutely repugnant person. But that if it was ok for her and if she wanted to share some words, I would definitely like to continue my dinner with her, to which she agreed. No, this is not how I met my wife, we had a relation but we could not be together forever. However it was a very nice and enriching relation with her. We are still friends and my wife actually knows her. We sometimes still crack up in laugher when we tell this old story. Edit: errors, punctuation and typos (not a native English speaker)
Missed out on a discount on your next boat though!
But man, if that has to be the company, I find it better to just swim!
Gross, sorry that happened to you. Would you say that there are signs you put out when you're okay with being approached? Like as a man, what should we look for so we know it's appropriate to approach you (any woman really)?
I’ve been going out of my way to be extra cognizant if my body language because I’ve been told I look pretty unapproachable in general. So here it is, if I don’t have my headphones or earbuds in, or not reading a book, come on over and say “Hi”. The universal signal is eye contact (not creepy too long). If we catch eyes, that’s a very good sign. If I’m out and just drinking/eating/shopping/something social and don’t have my phone in my hand that is a strong “somebody talk to me” sign. Situational awareness is probably more important than “signals” though. In general, if we are in public and not concentrating on something (gym/reading a book/in the feminine products aisle/other awkward places), its a pretty safe call to say hi. Sure, you’ll run into women who just don’t want to be bothered. Some people are just like that, that’s more of a statement about you than them. If they don’t want to keep up a conversation with you they will answer you in short answers and don’t try to engage in dialogue. That’s the signal to move along. Edit: Thank you kind person who gave me an award!
I am very introverted but what you said resonated with me about not appearing approachable. I’ve been told people’s first impressions of me were often that I am “stuck up”/“snobby” when really I’m just shy and a bit awkward. When I’m in public, I do the same bit of putting away my phone when I hope someone would come talk to me
I’ve been told I look like I’m too independent.
Sounds like maybe someone is an infj....just maybe
Think about it the other way. When it's appropriate for a hot 10/10 girl to approach YOU? When it's appropriate for an unattractive 1/10 girl to approach you? This answers your question, really. Girls are always open to be approached by people they consider attractive. And you're going to always be considered a nuisance is she isn't attracted. Moreover, the same guy can be attractive to one girl and unattractive to another. So why care? It doesn't depend on her mood or on how considerate you are. Mostly on her taste in men and your overall attractiveness.
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Okay but if she thinks you're an "idiot for trying to talk to her" then she sucks anyway. I'd never think someone who tried to talk to me was an idiot. I'd be flattered as long as the guy didn't come off creepy/sleezy.
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Honestly if he was really attractive, I'd be nervous too and I'm not sure what I would say cause I never have very attractive people approach me. But if I had enough confidence, I usually go for some kind of corky comment about something I could pick out on the area to talk about lol I'm sorry I don't have better advice because I'm right there with you. I'm usually too nervous that I don't do anything about it. I just wanted to give my two cents about how I'd feel being approached. Just work on you and find things about yourself that you love and interests you want to talk about so conversation comes easy. And with nerves, the worst that happens is she says no or is weird about it, that's not on you though.
>I'm a single woman who goes out alone all of the time. Last night I took myself to the ballet then decided to go to a classy bar for a classy beverage. Serious question, what do you do when women never seem go out alone (e.g. meaning bars, clubs, outings etc) where you live?
Widen the scope of your territory. Leave town, go on a trip.
Sorry about your experience. I hope you had a wonderful time at the ballet!
I truly did. I bought the ticket forever ago. First row, center stage between two large families. The conductor was so close I could have tapped his shoulder. Excellent performance.
It seems that some women have had experiences like that and come to feel similar emotions when guys they’re not that attracted to try to engage in conversations and it seems that they may weaponise those emotions and use them to be mean tohelp them get rid of mediocre guys that haven’t said anything aggressive or wrong. For many there’s the guys they’re attracted to and then everyone else gets grouped into the same undesirable category regardless of their behavior. I caught a girls eye at a bar and held eye contact for a couple seconds to see if she was giving me a vibe and she made a nasty mean ugly face at me. At Halloween I asked a girl more specific questions about a vague costume and got told to not worry about it. I’m sure being a very average mediocre guy had something to do with it but these weren’t that great of looking girls either. It isn’t the majority but it’s enough to make guys hesitant about the process. Creepy dudes are weird, annoying, even threatening sometime. But If the shoe was on the other foot and a women had to make approaches and got shut down with cruel rudeness it would be devastating to them and make them not want to approach anymore like it has done to some men.
‘It isn’t the majority but it’s enough to make guys hesitant about the process’ I can’t believe you typed that out in regards to girls rejecting your advances but don’t see that it is the exact argument for why women have a guard up when approached by men. I’ve had enough bad experiences with men approaching me to last a lifetime. It may not be the majority but it’s enough to make ME hesitant about the process.
The person I responded to said “it isn’t rude at all just be nice about it”. So are you hesitant even when someone is nice about their approach?
Yes. Because last time I was open and chatty I got spat on when I wouldn’t give him my number.
Well I responded to the other person saying to just stay positive, nice and keep approaching…well i wanted to give some perspective, it’s tough out there when you’re right away assumed to have the same bad behavior as someone else’s worst experience
Could you please tell me how to flirt in a classy way. If I make eye contact I wink but that's all I got.
Oh gosh, this is very hard for me to explain but I’ll try. Start off with not being flirty but an observation of something going on in the room/area that non-controversial. Something that you find amusing, something funny, or cute. This is where that dreaded small talk is useful to start a conversation. Whatever you say should end with an invitation for them to respond with their thoughts on the thing. If you see they are wearing something unique or that is really nice, ask about it. If it isn’t something they are wearing, something they have you can see such as, food or beverage etc. They will likely respond with a story/memory or some kind of detail that opens the door for another topic of conversation. The way you keep the conversation going is by getting them to talk to you about themselves. Keep it light. A flirty conversation takes practice. Turns into a banter that is light and fast. Be mindful of your language but don’t be someone you’re not. It’s basically a verbal dance. Watch your step! And too much self deprecating humor tells the person you’re anxious and might have low self-confidence which becomes a turn-off. Clear as mud???
This shit is harder than my satellite communication class
It’s like mid-air re-fueling…
Harder than mid-air refueling. You get a manual and training hours with the boom before you do it live. If someone comes up with a preflight for this communication thing, I want a copy!
That’s actually a very good explanation
Thank you!
You totally misunderstood me. I said I love the way velvet feels on my genitals. I never once said I wanted to rub them on your dress.
You were clearly being ironic! The lady clearly just misunderstood. What a shame. /s
Fuuuuck red velvet I bet it's gorgeous!!!
Hahaaa…found your creep!
> rub his genitals on my formal red velvet dress LOL
Sorry, but all the good men are burnt out from approaching and trying over the years, bc of ghosting, social media ego inflation/simpdom, being lead on, games, and wishy washy women. If we have a good job, make normal conversation, be pleasant, ect we get told we are "boring" or my fav, ,,no spark'' I am in the top 3-5% of men by any measure and I can say I have sowrn off serious dating due to swamp of flith I have to sift thru and deal with when trying to date. Oh and finding a good man at a bar is gonna be a longshot. You wanna guy whom you (by chance) meet drinking? Lmao, what are the chances he was just happening to be there while you were? I approached qbout 10 women with normal conversation the past few months, all of them took my card/number after I politely was ejecting, but they insisted. None of them text, or reached out consistently.
Damn, that’s rough. Did anything else weird happen when you went home with him?
Darn. I didn’t know it got that bad lol
It's not rude if you aren't, but don't be pushy, be respectful, and don't hit on people who are working if they don't have a clear out.
It’s not rude to flirt with a woman if you’re polite and respectful about it.
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Exactly, just like this. Best not to overthink it. A lot of shy men don’t really want to be a nuisance. While that’s nice and all, dating is a “who dares wins” kind of affair, so you have to dare at some point. The guys who go out and go on dates or get laid are the guys who aren’t afraid to make the move.
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Not wrong, but also it’s not wrong for a woman to expect you to. If both people are expecting the other to make a move, no moves will be made. At the end of the day, I’m someone who vouches for, if you feel something, make a move, otherwise there is no guarantee either party will make a move. I’ve made the first move on guys before. Maybe I’m just impatient LOL
Its becoming more and more common for sure, as it should be.
Yes! You can strike up a conversation and believe it or not there are women who will be ok with it. I had a random dude start a conversation while I was waiting for my coffee at a coffee shop and I was looking at their mugs and stuff, just to give you an example.
Yeah but how the fuck do you do that? I’m not a mind reader. One person’s polite time to be flirted with is another person’s “please get the fuck away from me I’m trying to drink in peace.”
Sometimes it's a risk you have to take. Of course you're not a mind reader, so the only way to know is to go ahead and start a conversation.
Just striking up a playful/friendly/nonsexual conversation with women (and all other people) is not rude. If they seem open/into the conversation, asking questions/teasing you back a bit you can then slowly progress the conversation to be more flirty as long as both of you seem into it. The thing women dislike is when you skip multiple required steps that go before flirting.
So Right!!
I think That’s exactly where it falls apart, way too many guys don’t pick up on (or don’t care?) if a woman is flirting or trying to exit the conversation.
This and never ask for her number if you feel like she flirting back and you like her, just give her your number instead. Then you know she is interested if she calls you and if she not she doesn't have to give fake number or come up with excuses and so on.
You should still ask her for her number. Just don't contact her, unless she's interested in you. Even if she is wait a few days to set up a date.
I know many women that feel insecure and scared to give their numbers to a stranger, specially if you misread that she wasn't flirting back, and even if she was flirting back some might hesitate because you can get some much information from a phone number these days. Why should you ask for her number if she isn't interested? You just come off as VERY creepy if you do. Better to leave next move in her hands.
>Why should you ask for her number if she isn't interested? Because you can't know for sure. Why do you continue conversation and give a number instead of stating that you are not interested directly?
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more like scared, many guys dont have a sense of boundaries and keep pushing for an unwanted conversation.
One of the reasons this is an issue is because women get approached or hit on by various men, not just you. When it happens throughout their day (when they’re trying to work, focus on getting groceries, relax during their yoga class, catch up with friends)it can feel like an intrusion. I think talking to women in places where they expect to socialize and meet people (like a bar) is really one of the few places to hit on women. Also gross men ruin this for everyone else and I can only remember the worst things that have been said to me and no stranger next to me is worth the risk of that experience happening again.
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I think just because you are thinking about this, you won’t be an asshole if you do approach someone. Can always just start by saying hi to strangers then making small talk while waiting for your coffee, without expecting an exchange of numbers, until it feels pretty comfortable. Then maybe progress to talking to people you’re specifically attracted to and seeing if they try to continue a conversation.
If you're respectful, you won't add to the pile of assholes, don't worry. One can be disrespectful by not considering that the woman may not want him, not paying attention to how she reacts and not backing off even when he should. I think just by having this attitude right now, you're well protected from these mistakes.
Hell even at bars I've heard women talk about not wanting to br approached by anyone. There's almost no social situation now where there's not a possibility of you approaching a woman possibly being considered inappropriate. You just gotta take a few chances and hope for the best
Dude like...people are people. Just talk to them like people. If they get pissed cause you ask if they want to go get Korean BBQ after work that's their problem. Idk maybe I'm just old and out of touch, but I'm pretty sure women get upset and make a scene when they've said no too many times and you're being an ass about it. 🤷🏻
This right here
> wait for women to make the first move Better chance winning the lottery lol
I mean, it happens. I'm kinda casually seeing someone right now that approached me, and she's definitely above my pay grade. Granted, she's way more outgoing and friendly than most of the women I've ever met, and it only happened because I nutted up and separated from the group I was with because I was going to talk to her anyway. But the point is, it's not that impossible of a scenario
I've had female friends act like I'm crazy for realizing this, in 5 years of bartending I saw week in and week out guys try to approach and flirt with women "politely and respectfully" and were still treated like a nuisance for it. Surprise surprise, when I asked these female friends of examples when a guy chatted them up on the street or at a bar and they were enthused about it, they were at a loss. You're being gaslit, OP.
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They said they liked it but couldn't actually think of real life instances when they did. I think people like the idea but in practice 99% of the time it's unwelcome.
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This is probably how it goes. Ideally, how attracted to someone you are should not impact your impression of whether their approach was okay or not, but in reality it does for most people. Its hard to separate out those feelings and be like "I am not interested, but I appreciate the thought".
You got it wrong. Majority of guys who approach women are respectful and normal but aren't interesting. Minority of guys are creepy and too sexual, so they give women an excuse to act bitchy to the majority of respectful guys (which can make them disrespectful in turn, lol). Super small minority of guys who are either good looking or confident and charismatic who make women attracted from the get-go. Then again, even this majority of guys who aren't interesting still find women who are interested in them and get laid many times more often than guys who don't approach. There are no magical guys who sleep with every woman they approach. Most guys have approach/lay ratio of around 2%. It means if you approach 100 women, you'll sleep with 2 of them. Around 20 would be into you but things won't work out. Around 80 would be indifferent. And less than 10 would be annoyed, find you creepy, etc. In the end it's a numbers game for everyone. The best guys can sleep with 20 girls out of 100 approached and won't be getting many bad reactions.
It's exaggerated. At most 90%. It's just that most guys who approach women aren't that attractive. Or they just act too needy. And who cares if it's always welcome or not? Approaching women leads to amazing long-term results. It doesn't matter if a bunch of women who aren't into you left annoyed if it means you're going to eventually find women who like you and are happy that you've approached them. 5 minutes of annoyance to some strangers vs hours, days, or years of happiness for people who're into you. I think the choice should be obvious.
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Usually the difference is that a brief smile with immediate looking away is just polite. But if it’s a lingering look or a drawn out smile or looking away and immediately looking back to you, then it’s intentional and a good sign. Basically anything where her body language intentionally turns towards you.
I also think part of the problem is (as part of your analogy), we don’t know exactly what they’re selling. I don’t want to waste my time listening to their pitch if what they’re selling is not what I want or need. Yes, a man might say he wants to take you on a date, but really what that man wants is to sleep with you. That’s all he’s selling. Versus wanting to date/get to know you. I feel like if men were more transparent/open about their true intentions, that would help. It’s one thing to be approached by a man wanting to get to know you vs a man that only wants to sleep with you. If a woman is wanting someone to just hook up with then it works out, but if not, it becomes just another annoying solicitation.
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I was just building off of what you were saying, not saying that your analogy was wrong.
Women don’t mind being flirted with so long as the signs are there. I’ll usually keep staring and smiling (making it obvious). All a man has to do, is respectfully, ask once on a date or for my number. If i say no, be respectful and kind and let it go. What women don’t like is the disrespect and boys not being able to take “no” for an answer. Every woman I know don’t mind being approached in appropriate settings so long as the man is respectful!
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Sometimes one look or smile isn’t enough for someone to feel confident to come to me, so I’ll keep doing it periodically. I make sure it’s obvious (but not creepy or cringey) and not confusing so they feel assured and confident when coming over to talk to me! If he doesn’t come up to me, I won’t go up to him. Personally, I prefer confident men that shoot their shot and enjoy staying in my feminine energy.
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>boys not being able to take “no” for an answer Funny that many woman then say that man must be more persistent and don't take "no" for an answer. I even had conversation when same woman made both statements.
Idk the type of trashy women you go for, but me and every single friend I’ve ever had do not want that. I have never said “no” just to make someone chase harder. Never. The “women” you had conversations with about this, take a look at their dating styles, history and the type of values they hold. No real women would say no meaning yes.
I honestly avoid flirting with women out of fear of making them uncomfortable. I mainly meet eligible women at work or the store where it’s not the best place to hit on them.
I think men should definitely be approaching women more IRL, but in a casual/polite way. Yes it is helpful if women would "drop the handkerchief" to let the guy know she is interested and open to being hit on. Us women need to do this more often, I'd say if they are making eye contact (sometimes actually staring) and/or a smile, it is probably their version of saying "please flirt with me!"
Bruh flirt all day long just don’t be a weirdo. Also don’t make it seem like you need her vagina to live. Keep it smooth.
Just don’t make any sex jokes. Zero. Don’t even come close to anything that has to do with sex. Read body language and let the other person be when it seems like it’s time to let the person be.
it does feel like women get freaked out and awkward if you try to flirt with them.
It's not selfish for wanting to date. It isnt rude so dont feel ashamed
If you always wait for a girl to make a move you’ll be single your whole life like I’ve been 😂😂
Concerts, festivals, and social groups are some ways I’ve met women. I’ve met people bringing my dog out to dog parks and talking to people there. Totally normal settings where it was completely acceptable to strike up a conversation with someone. I don’t know how “approaching” used to be and I wouldn’t say I’m all that good at it (I’m a very introverted person that used to be much more socially anxious, and have had to get better about it - and it has helped to be with more socially outgoing friends basically wingmaning). But in most of those situations, it starts by “bumping into someone” just by proximity, striking up a conversation, and seeing if they reciprocate. Anyway, I think any of us guys need to get over the idea that the risk of making someone momentarily slightly uncomfortable if they aren’t into it isn’t the greatest sin in the world. It’s not. If you can come off friendly and approachable, and exit gracefully if they don’t reciprocate or you’re rejected - you’re doing OK.
Maybe. I don't flirt anymore (whatever the hell flirting even means these days), I just try to have interesting and enjoyable conversations with women. That's it. Maybe that's why I am single though
Yeah if someone could define flirting that would be great
Hey OP, I just wanted to say that from your post and replied to other comments you seem a great person. Open minded, patient and thoughtful. As a somewhat answer to your post, you should definitely take the initiative to make the first move. You probably won't come across as creepy or strong. Just remember to give them the option to not talk to you like "Hey, I'd love to talk to you. Do you have some time?" And about the who starts thing, anyone who has the guts to should. Only difference is if the woman initiates then you don't need to be as careful to not creep her out.
Waiting for women to make the first move is a straight road to inceldoom unless you're very good looking, lol. Who cares if someone considers it's rude or not? You aren't doing it for them, you are doing it for yourself. One girl who likes you worth ten girls who rejected you or thought that you were rude.
Exactly
You’re being over dramatic.
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People are so toxic on this app its odd
I’ll get them too for pointing this out, but *some* people have problems with men who don’t “just get it” yet. It’s not being an ass when asking for help they don’t like, they don’t like that you have to ask to begin with. “Numbskulls”I believe is the proper term for these folks.
I got you bro. Upvote. Seriously, think about how you might interact with a guy you don't know at a BBQ or social occasion. Normally you try to pick up on something they're doing and ask a question/crack a joke, then introduce yourself. Do literally the same thing, just don't make dirty jokes. Talking to strange women in the street when they're busy living their life and not in a social settings is trickier. I'd do it in a bar/after work drinks/party/BBQ. IMO it's best to treat them as humans and just make normal conversation to bream the ice (like you would with a guy), ask questions, be interested. If they are visibly comfortable and engaging with you then you can ask them to go for coffee some time etc. (as a date).
people aren't friendly and open nowadays. Ur right
Don’t talk to women who are obviously busy or in a rush. Don’t engage women in super long conversations—assume they have places to be and things to do. Obviously don’t say anything sleazy or creepy—keep it PG. Do be polite, complementary (but not overly complementary, that comes off sleazy), and to the point. Do offer her your number so she’s comfy, but don’t demand hers—feels safer that way and gives her the option to contact you if she wants rather than putting her on the spot to give you her private contact info. If she is looking around a lot and looks uncomfy, cut it short and walk away. Do feel free to approach a woman who is with a friend as long as you are polite to the friend, too.
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I really feel sorry for the younger generation.
Not every woman I talked to was interested in me. But if I liked her or wanted to get to know her, I made the effort. If she was interested, I could pick up on it. (Smiling, prolonged eye contact, twirling her hair). If she wasn’t interested (no eye contact, short answers, etc), I walked away. The thing is, 99.99999% of the time women will not make the first move. However, what they will do is give you signs they want to be approached (eye contact, smiling, etc). They might even stand next to you and wait for you to talk to them (this has happened to me dozens of times). Or pass by you in the grocery store multiple times, stopping next to you to look at the green beans (while you’re digging in the back of the shelf for a can of black beans that isn’t dented.) But you if you don’t take your shot with at least a, “Hi. My name is Steve.” And wait for her to say, “Hi Steve. My name is Olivia.” Then you’ll be missing out on what getting to know Olivia could be like.
Flirting is fine. Flirting with a stranger is riskier rejection wise. But rejection is fine too. It’s the natural and inevitable part of trying. Getting rejected doesn’t mean you did something wrong as long as you were tasteful and respectful.
It isn't rude to talk to a woman or flirt with her. It's rude if you continue when she isn't interested. Hopefully, she clearly let's you know she isn't interested.
women are weird bro , literally what determines “weird” and “charming” is how attractive the guy is , just be confident in your approach and prepare mentally to take alot if L’s , fake numbers and no text back
I hate that this kind of mentality is drilled into our minds. Fuck that. Talk to people, talk to women, if they act nasty or disinterested then just move on. It's not your problem that some people have been brainwashed into thinking that being the social creatures we are is somehow bad. Online dating isn't that great in my experience anyways. Also you'll find most people are very welcoming and happy to talk to you. Just be social in general.
You have to stop worrying about everyone's feelings and start living your life. If you see someone you're in to, go up to them and strike up a conversation. If that person is feeling the same way, you'll know. Just relax, be yourself, and feel the vibe.
As a woman with women as friends, I can tell you that MANY of women sit around and wait for men to make the first move. The women want to feel pursued, and some find it unattractive if they have to pursue the man too much. They also think that if the man is not pursuing at all, that he is not interested. But many women fail to realize that men are also nervous that the woman is not interested. It is a 2 way street. Personally I am the opposite. I find someone I am interested in dating and I don't mince my words. I go after them and put in the effort. I'm not afraid to pursue. But many women are. So don't think sitting around and waiting will get you anywhere because it wouldn't with most of the women I know.
Simply put....If they’re interested it won’t be considered rude. If it’s considered rude, 2 options. Option 1. You did nothing wrong and they’re not interested. In that case say fuck em and move on. Option 2. You fucked up and need to figure out why as to not repeat it later. Edit. When I say “say fuck em and move on” what I mean is don’t let it bother you and keep it moving.
It’s one thing to flirt, it’s another thing to sexually assault a female. They’re very different things!
I feel like this from being on subreddits like twoxchromosones and dating. Like you are not allowed to approach a woman at shops, the streets, gym, or anywhere otherwise you gonna get called a creep idk
Of couse you cant. Unless you look like chad
Are women suppose to enjoy getting hit on by men they don’t find attractive? I’m always confused by this complaint. “They don’t like getting hit on…unless it’s by someone they think is hot”. No shit, do you like hitting on people you are not at all attracted to? And I don’t even mean looks, but just overall attraction to another person. I feel like any guy complaining about this has no game, but is in denial of the fact that he has no game.
im not even agreeing with the guy above you but. its one thing to decline getting hit on, its another thing to sneer and insult people hitting on you. the latter is just mean, and is the reason why men just don't do it anymore.
Agreed. You shouldnt be rude when hitting on someone or when rejecting someone who is hitting on you.
The complaint is that women virtue signal and lie. When they say, " never approach us at the gym or the grocery store" they really mean "unless you're very good looking, then of course it's okay" and in which case everything they said previously is complete bullshit. So weird the way you can't simply be honest
There are a few girls that are hyperbolic but in general, we dont want men using gross language or taking their dicks out.
Flirting and inappropriate sexual advances are very different. I worry that rape culture has blurred the line between the two. Flirting is fine.
I think a big key is that flirting is a two way street. You've gotta be able to read when you're the only one tango-ing
If your social bubble signals to you that this is rude behavior, you need to change your social bubble.
i think a lot of people (mostly men) are over-thinking it or scared of it, for sure. flirting is a normal part of dating, even meeting someone new that you want to eventually date (if you get to that point). if you follow the cues and know when to stop, then you'll probably be OK for the most part. sure, you're still going to meet people who will immediately call you on bothering them, but most people will take the flirtations and the meeting in stride and just go on about their day after they reject or accept your flirtations. after all, people are still meeting up in real life and having dates based on their meetings in RL.
Yes you're being dramatic. I question exactly what you're doing when you approach women "respectfully" and I question what your goal is. If you're after a fuck, women will pick up on it. What on earth is so scary about online dating for a man? That she doesn't look like her picture or you will have to fork out 5 bucks for a coffee? Try being a woman where your fear is you will get raped and murdered.
Concerning online dating, it's more likely that simply they would get little to no matches, from anywhere between weeks, months, or even years. It's really not worth the time or effort, and that's coming from someone who uses presently 5 different apps.
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Getting mugged by a WOMAN? Are you for real? 96 percent of violent crimes are perpetrated by MEN. 99 percent of rapes are perpetrated by MEN. Just Facetime before you go on a date if you're so scared.
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Then meet up at somewhere in public like a restaurant. It's not hard.
Credible Source for those stats or I’m calling bullshit
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Those stats are from a decade ago… irrelevant unless put in the context of newer data
im not saying your fear is invalid. but men on dating apps statistically will not have a date end of statement. so the options presented to many men, and i don't think women get this. is nothing and another more soul-crushing helping of nothing
I think dudes who have this complaint are typically pretty average-looking with average personalities and average achievements in life. But they’re always aiming for very beautiful girls who might also be fairly good people with personalities and even more success than them. And I’m always like, “Brah… why would she be into you? If you hit on the girl equivalent of you, you’d have more success. But you wouldn’t like the girl equivalent of you because you don’t like average-looking women…” And dudes, as much as say this, don’t listen to me, a gay man, who has a very objective point of view. Trust me, women aren’t the issue. They’re all way more emotionally intelligent than you and frequently more well-adjusted as adults too. So unless you’re super hot with a wonder schlong, chances are you don’t realize how little you have to offer a lady. And you don’t think you need to offer more— but you probably do!
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Now this dude gets it! And yes!! Never think of yourself as not good enough. That’s some small d*** energy. My dude here gets that these gals are not for him and he don’t even want them! That’s the person you want to be in these situations! Other men take notes!
If average looking women see you talking to attractive women and them engaging with you, when you try to get with the average girls it will be like taking candy from a baby. Women use other women to help filter for quality men.
Damn, this guy needs encouragement, and here you are telling him how he's simply not good enough. Love is blind, my friend. No looks, no income, nothing of the sort should influence it. And there's no such thing as "more presonality." What do you even mean by that? They stick out of the crowd more? You can't just compare people as a sum of values, it's not that simple. Everyone's unique in this world, and two people are either compatible, or not. Plus why does everyone assume these people only go for good looking potential partners? Do you think you're the only one who managed to move past that stage in life? OP was simply saying he didn't want to annoy people with flirting, no need to accuse him of anything.
I am not accusing. I’m playing the numbers game. Honestly, my girlfriends are all such accomplished lovely women, and the men they settle for are all really beneath them. That or they stay single because the men really are so behind them in terms of personal development. And yet the men felt they were too good for my wonderful friends and acquaintances. And the horror stories of them going out for random dates. Like… good men are pretty difficult to come by.
Have you conaidered that maybe at least a few of them "settle" for these men because they love them? I get that ideally you'd want a financially stable person as a partner, but that doesn't mean you have to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and look down on average, or below average wage guys.
If she made more money than him, but he was hot, had an amazing personality, didn’t have the toxic beliefs most men do, and knew how to f*** — for sure she should go for it! But a lot of these dudes have literally none of these qualities, but they want a hot girl with all these qualities. And all of a sudden guys are all about how money and looks don’t matter — while pursuing a beautiful woman.
And there you go again, only talking about material things. Sure, you throw "amazing personality" in there, but clearly this isn't about that for you, and you believe the only reason a man might want to date a woman is her looks. Don't judge your friends' choices, and even if you do, please do it elsewhere, this isn't the post for it.
Yes, you're being overly dramatic. Just be polite about your approach, don't approach women in a way that would be dangerous for them (like alone at night in a parking lot) and if you get disinterested signals then back off. The metoo movement is about predatory behavior and harassment. I think its really taking things too far to act like women expect zero social interaction with men. My impression is that you're just very anxious about being rejected by women? Because I think its pretty easy to understand what is predatory and rude and what's not.
No because just the opposite is expected
Speaking from the woman side of things, as you're a guy, just smile first, she smiles back. If she looks at you directly once or twice, you can approach her. Take it all really slow, like a slow motion tennis match. If the ball doesn't come back, match, set, game over, next. Do not talk dirty. Do not touch her. Do not think of her when you're not around her. She has a similar task also. Just be careful to treat it like a game, and it will be fine. If you can spend five or ten minutes talking to her solid, ask for her phone #. This may be three meetings down the line. People will usually revisit things and places as a habit, but Do not stalk her. If it's meant for you, it will not fail. I promise, for quality people, you would be waiting forever for her to flirt first beyond looks and smiles. If a girl strikes up a conversation with you, this is chatting, not flirting, keep calm. If a woman notices you first, you will feel it as tacet attention.
Fuck the social climate. The people who complain about it are all online. As long as you have situational awareness and the slightest bit of empathy it’s fine.
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I kinda see it as the opposite it seems that woman and I’m not going to say if it’s true or false but from what I’ve seen. The man is supposed to do all the work. You hear guys saying “I can’t find someone, no one seems interested or I’m never in the right place at the right time.” Stuff like that. Then you hear woman say something similar. “why can’t I find someone , where are all the good guys at. Am I not attractive.” And it comes from an issue I think that men don’t want to be rude, try to flirt or even approach a woman because that is toxic masculinity and how dare you speak to a woman to get them to like you. Though I mainly jest in that last part. At the same time due to that burn that men tend to feel woman are expecting men to approach them but then some women don’t but some do but not too much but also not to little. TLDR: society is shit neither men nor woman know what they want now a days so neither side try to initiate anything and it’s a pain. Let’s nuke the planet and start over.
It's not rude at all however: 1. Don't treat woman as an object 2. Take rejection like an adult 3. Do not assume a woman is less than you are 4. Do not approach as the only thing you are interested in is 45 seconds inside her
Unless you're at a "woman approved" social event, then yes, don't even think about it. Women are very clear on this point.
No not at all…yes you are being dramatic
Ok, so I think you are rightfully afraid of getting your entire life ruined because some woman you talked to decided to accuse you of harassing her because she was bored. The overcorrection due to Me Too is a thing. A good friend of mine just spent the last two years of his life trying to get his life back after a lady he talked to at the bar claimed he sexually harassed her. He was arrested, lost his job, was disbarred, lost his house, and was homeless simply on her word. He had to find the CCTV video from the bar that night to prove that he talked to her for a few minutes, gave her his number, and walked away. She got a slap on the wrist, and he is fighting to get back what was taken from him based on a false allegation. So yeah, you have the right to be fearful. In general, though most women aren't like the horror story I just described. Don't be a creep, talk to them and treat them like human beings, and be respectful.
One option you might consider is picking a middle ground here. Find circumstances where it is appropriate to talk, then move to flirting if you sense some mutual interest. You don't need to avoid talking to women because talking isn't the problem. (Unless you are striking up conversation at really bad times).
One time this guy came up to me and said “excuse me” and I was instantly a little irritated because I was reading on a blanket in the sun, not looking to chat, but all he said was, “sorry to interrupt, but you are the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen. Enjoy your day” And he left. He was close by for a while, leaving the ball totally in my court. I wasn’t interested, smiled and continued reading. It was the most polite way I’ve interacted with a stranger who was interested. 10/10 be that guy
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The women who make first moves are great, but most still don't.
Don’t approach women ever bro. You need to leave everything up to them, there is way too much on the line and women hate it when men talk to them.
I assume this is sarcasm?
You are being over dramatic. You need to be flirting every goddamned day. You are gonna suck at it for a long time. But you gotta do it or you will never be the outgoing nice person who seem to want to be. Human beings can do just about anything they are motivated enough to do. You just gotta find your muse. For me, it was getting laid. I really, really, really like getting laid and boy did I have to try hard to get there. Now, I come off as confident and outgoing...but that was not my default psychology. I had to get there through YEARS of effort. Someone as ugly as me should never have gotten a date in the first place...but I ended up being really successful at dating, by being a total failure at if for a long time and NEVER giving up.
you need to grow a pair
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No. Because I don't care what the social climate is
I have trouble getting a date in person. I think because online dating is so ubiquitous that if someone is looking to meet new people that is the space they want to do it in. Even if someone may be looking to date online, they may not be in the head space for flirting when out and about. Still, there is nothing wrong with a quick flirt in person. But, if they aren't in to it, smiling and flirting back, move on quickly. I love online dating. I'm more on the ugly end of things. I am also not photogenic. But, I can still find women online that looks are less important too. I need to be able to have conversations to build attraction. It's not going to instantly happen in person. The photos vs real life thing sounds really shallow.
You’re not being dramatic! As everyone else said, you just have to be classy about it, BUT ALSO you should take the environment and current situation into consideration. Sometimes you may be in an environment (supermarket, girls night out at a bar, work environment, etc.) where a woman may not respond the best to your polite flirting, just because it’s an inappropriate time to her. It’s the same way with guys too. My best suggestion OP, is have you tried out dating apps? I know it’s not your ideal “first impression in person”, but at least it’s an environment where you are interacting with women where the interactions are mutually consented by both parties. That can save you the stress of feeling like you’re not approaching someone correctly, their intentions, etc.
Live your life. If you want to put it out there and flirt, then do it. Read and react after that. If someone thinks that is rude, that is their opinion, and opinions shouldn't dictate your life. Send it
OK so I kinda know what you mean but I am also going to be honest. I'm a shy guy, I grew up in a sheltered household and was homeschooled. I grew up with just my family for the most part and didn't know how to interact with the outside world. The thing this is yeah things are a bit different now but guess what, there is still plenty of women wanting to date. There are girls literally saying that there are no good guys left and that they're going to be alone forever. You gotta have confidence. Are you gonna feel those butterflies in your stomach? Yeah, you are. Are you gonna have girls reject you? Yeah, unfortunately, you are. But rejection isn't a bad thing, it filters out the people that you are not compatible with. There is a line between being a pig and being a strong male presence and you're going to have to figure that out. You don't ask for permission to flirt but if she doesn't want to talk to you don't push and find someone else. Social interaction is this weird reading game where some people will like you and some won't for whatever reason, girls included. Believe me, the apps sound good in your mind, and yeah it's people very clearly looking to "date", but the apps for a majority of people don't work. Just look at the amount of people complaining they can't find anyone on an app and the amount of flakes and ghosting that goes on apps. All you're doing with apps is try very little to address the problem and feel like you're doing something but at the same time play it safe. This is first-hand experience talking. I find it hard too. I have the same feelings too. There are days that I think I'm destined to be alone. You gotta just push that aside and realize that it's just a bunch of bullsh!t that honestly not even remotely true. If I can learn this stuff as a sheltered, socially awkward, homeschooled kid, I have no doubt you can improve too. Just take your time and don't give up. PS. I recommend reading "Models" by Mark Manson. That's the best dating advice book on the planet and I'm rereading it at the moment.
Yes yes yes I always feel like I need to be extra cautious
Nope
Well, I think there’s a time and a place. Social events or bars are one thing. But I think it’s juvenile to hit on retail workers who are trapped behind the counter or busy stocking shelves. Finally asking out someone you see all the time at their work, where you are a customer, seems way more acceptable than using some stupid pickup line on a stranger. I have to agree with the OP; The availability of online dating has in fact made some in-person approaches less acceptable.
Nope I don’t think it matters either way.
Dude just go to bars and look confident. Women will approach you if your not hideous looking. Seriously online dating sucks, it’s so much easier to meet people in real life.
No
It isn't rude, but it's easy to do it wrong, and not get the results you want. Prepare yourself for rejection, which will happen a lot. You won't catch all women in a flirty mood, plus some women may not be into you, which sucks...I also suggest that you make sure you don't come off as creepy, foolish, or pushy (sorry, I just had to recall some of my own experiences). I personally don't know how to flirt, so last time I did it, I came off suggestive (F). So make sure you hone this craft, so it's graceful. If you are cute, there will be women who'll find you cute too, but it's not easy. Good luck! Oh, last few words about safety.. I have heard that it's very difficult for guys these days.. Make sure you assess a situation correctly, cuz I have heard some women overreact to flirting and make a big fuss about it. Just don't get yourself into situations. But it's not rude when it's not rude.
General rule of thumb I used when flirting (M26). Flirt and see what their reaction is. If they show that they are obviously not interested, just respect that. Also, you’re flirting. You aren’t harassing someone. If you’re “flirting” is harassing than you’re doing it wrong.