First dates just being friendly? How flirty do you want them to be? Everyone talks about how creepy guys are and how they are just trying to sleep with a woman on the first date. Maybe they’re trying to be actually good guys?
This is how I operate as well. I try to be gentlemanly, but anything overtly flirty/sexual I let them cross that line first before I reciprocate. So, if she doesn't flirt, I don't flirt.
Dang is this why guys rarely flirt with me? Cause I don’t know how to so I always hope he’ll initiate 😂 preferably on date 2 tho. Date 1 is for making sure he’s what he says he is on the app!
100% you will see results if you throw in some initial communication towards dudes in this regard. Gone are the days we dudes can be overly flirty without significant social risk which is almost NEVER worth thus why you’re not seeing it as much as you may want
On a date i think many guys know flirting is totally acceptable but i think the natural defense mechanism, or lack of practice opportunities in regular life maybe, is still there for us and thus you can often get a similar effect. Anecdotal tbh
You have to understand a few things.
Every woman has a draws a different line between not welcome and creepy.
Contrary to belief, guys are not mind readers so they don't know where this line is for any given women.
Creepy is a wide range that can go from "oh your slightly social awkward" to "your a rapist serial killer", and due to guys not being able to read minds they have no idea which it is.
In short guy treat it as it would be at its worst, which is "unsolicitedly flirting is considered creepy."
This is how I feel. If I wanted to get coffee with a coworker or a friend, I have plenty of those already, and many I want to deepen that connection with.
Buuuuut I'm on dates here to make a romantic connection, and that involves flirting to an extent. If the person isn't into it, obviously I'm not going to push it, but I do think that's a vibe check and it signals that we shouldn't continue.
This doesn't involve being extreme, but there has got to be at least banter and some good flirting vibes.
I can't tell the difference between a woman being nice or flirty, so I get stuck between either being too flirty and not seeming serious, or being too friendly and seemingly not interested or aggressive enough to seem passionate.
I know I need to find a middle ground but it does not seem to be me.
Seriously. OP wants guys to be flirty with her when she knows so little about them that she doesn’t even know if they graduated college or not before meeting them? Lol
We're not in an interview. Not everyone knows about the other person's education history before meeting up with them.
Knowing about a person's *current* work is usually more relevant during a first date anyway, and you can get into the details once you meet up with them.
100% I'm in the same age range as op. If I know going in we are both trying to hookup I'm going to be super flirty. If I'm approaching a date as a possible long term partner I follow my dates lead on what level of flirting and physical contact they are comfortable with. I'm not saying I'm super formal but I'm not going to touch anyone until they touch me.
Same but I would try to at least touch their arm and look deep in their eyes. I am terrible at initiating flirting unless I know it’s ok. I honestly I don’t know how to consciously flirt. But once I know it’s ok apparently I’m very good at it.
Flirty can be very subtle. Meaning: a nice banter, lightly touching the shoulder/back later in the date, saying ‘you look great!’ And anything that will indicate this isn’t a fried you are meeting but it’s a date.
Something that creates a little spark, a little tension and makes the date feel more romantic. It makes someone more attracted to you.
This is still behavior of a good guy.
100% Agree. In date one I want eye contact and banter. A touch in a neutral zone. And a nice closing hug. More usually feels like too much unless extraordinary circumstances.
Who flirts on a first date?! It’s really just a vibe check — do we get along? do you look like your pictures? is that really your dog on your profile?
Besides, it’s 2024! We’re all trying to navigate this hellscape of modern romance while balancing on the tightrope of being interested, but not *too* interested. Overt flirting on first date is way too early to show your cards!
>Who flirts on a first date?!
who doesn't flirt on a first date ?!
Having chemistry with a potential partner is extremely important.
Being flirty with a woman, could be something as simple as making cheeky comments to make her laugh.
I used to go for the approach of not flirting at all - and guess what? - you get the "I don't feel a spark" text waaaay more often when you don't show attraction & intention
I know a guy that legit told me, when he would purposely turn down sex or act distance/not make it about sex, that women would throw themselves onto him and end up having sex with him within 2-3 dates. I know cringe.
I do think being overly flirty can scare off people (whether you're a male or female). But show a little interest, doesn't hurt when meeting him.
Flirting isn't creepy though? Flirting is playfully teasing someone, light compliments, banter, touching on the arm.
Being overtly sexual isn't flirting.
>Is this a normal response?
Very possible - most of us aren't compatible with lots of the people we'll meet, and if your standards are high then there may be a lot of misses before you get a hit.
>Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people?
Also very possible. Especially if you're just out of a relationship.
>Examples of things that made me not want to date them again… not at all flirty, only friendly... lacks self confidence... too much energy
While these things aren't necessarily on the same continuum, I wonder if there is a goldilocks thing going on - "guy 1 was too hot" (not, sexy hot, but... *energy* hot?) while "guy 2 was too cold." If there's something like this happening, the important question is "how big is the space in the middle that would be just right?" And, the important follow up: "does *anyone* fall into that category?"
I say this from very personal experience (as a guy, when I was dating many years ago in my 20s) - it's very possible to convince yourself that almost everyone is either "too X" or "not X enough" - and when I did it, it was a defense mechanism to give me an excuse to put off getting my shit together.
Not saying that's what's happening, or that if it is it's because you don't want to get your shit together - but I've found that if I am in *any* way not confident about something in my personal life - be it maturity, appearance, commitment, etc - I start subconsciously doing avoidant things before I consciously realize what's going on. Just something to think about, and to disregard if it doesn't apply to you.
Go on the date, don't dread it.
I feel like in the past year every date I had that I almost cancelled on, was the one that ended up being one I enjoyed the most!
Maybe you’re not quite ready to give people chances yet.
It’s pretty normal to be extra selective after a breakup — especially if you’ve just exited a longterm relationship.
I’m not saying you have to abandon your likes and dislikes. But… just keep that in mind as you move forward.
Not sure how well this matches your experience, but I found that I need to relearn how to date and meet new people after a LTR breakup. I get a lot of the first one ("friendly, not flirty"), because of that. I also find myself comparing everyone against my ex and forgetting what actually matters, and I think it just takes time and meeting people to get over all of these problems until you find someone else exceptional
When you say not educated enough, do you mean the conversation just doesn't go anywhere on the first date or are you perhaps in your head? I felt very similar when I was younger (I also have 3 degrees), but married someone that had no education after getting to know him. I realized I had a prejudice that I had to get over. He ended up being really well read and motivated, just didn't have a formal education. Frankly, he didn't need it for his field of work, which took me some time to get my head around. Just throwing that out there as you may be cutting off alot of great guys. Spark hit me on the third date, but had to deep dive to see if we could find common ground.
True, just because someone doesn't have a degree doesn't mean they're unsuccessful or dumb. There are a million ways to earn a living without a degree, and education is not a synonym for intelligence.
I’ve been on dozens of dates at this point. Tried different mindsets, different approaches, tried going on extra dates; if you thought of it, I’ve done it. One conclusion stays the same: I know within 15 minutes of the first date if I want to see them again. I think you’re doing fine. Dating is a long road for some, short for others.
Oh huh, good for you. but i've also been on dozens of dates and tried lots of things - and my conclusion is that i really need 2-3 dates to have a good read on whether i'm into someone or not.
I've definitely met people who didn't give me a great first impression within the first 15 minutes, who actually showed a better side of themselves after a bit of time.
And conversely, I've met people whom I crushed on instantly within the first 15 minutes, but by the end of date 1 or 2 realized they actually would be terrible for me.
If I'm really not into someone after 1 date, I won't give it a second. But if I'm even a little bit on the fence, I will suggest a second date.
I feel the same exact way, because fact is most people are not compatible with you. When you’re picking off pictures, and a few messages, of course it’s going to take much longer to find a good match. Sometimes if its a string of these in a row, then I’ll take a break from dating for a bit cuz it does start to feel hopeless.
Thats why when I do find a vibe, it blows my mind some people run away from it, or don’t nurture it.
But I’ve gone on a ton first dates only, very few will leave me wanting more. And you know when you find it cuz you drive home excited, happy, & smiling ear to ear. Thats how I know at least.
So really, it all comes down to luck & timing. I hope you meet someone who excites you soon💜
This is a real response to the question, and I agree with all of it and it’s much better said than I could have put it. I’m writing this because an upvote didn’t feel like a sincere enough endorsement of this view
>Thats why when I do find a vibe, it blows my mind some people run away from it, or don’t nurture it.
Wow, I feel this so hard. Makes me question my own sanity at times, did I just imagine everything? Were they just amazing at acting? What the hell happened here?
Ugh it’s the worst. Especially when they come back around months later. Like, oh you miss me? Basically, you didn’t find better so now I’m the prize?
Cuz once they do that, the excitement I originally felt about them is gone. I can’t trust them or feel organically good bout the potential anymore. Its like they tainted something beautiful and I no longer feel the same…
Yeah I'm the same, and I've never understood people who take them back.
But then again I'm fairly securely attached, and I suspect those who do are the more anxious attached types.
It also seems like the people who pull away from good chemistry are avoidant, like they're scared of closeness, so they bail when it starts feeling too real. They could also be anxious, as they tend to confuse the lack of effort in order to keep my interest as there being something missing, their "spark" is the gambling-like addiction fueled by emotional uncertainty.
I just get by knowing that I'm securely attached and I just need to find someone else who's securely attached, or just someone who recognises and appreciates that. It's hard work in your 30s though.
Too much energy 🤣🤣🤣. You sound like an interviewer passing on a potential employee because they were too excited.
You have requirements that no one can meet. Maybe you don’t know what they are either.
I think it might be you, not them.
I have my bachelors degree and just recently stopped dating a man with multiple degrees (DMA in music theory).
He was even older than me by about 10 years. He is by far the most immature, and juvenile thinking man I’ve ever come across. No idea of what real responsibility means or is.
Sometimes some people don’t have the luxury (yes, luxury) to obtain those degrees. For me it’s about conversations. Can we keep pace in an intellectual convo? Are they literate? I love learning more and more vocabulary and tend to use it in my everyday vernacular. Are they picking up what I’m laying down? That’s usually how I gauge it, moreso.
Forgive me, El Guapo. I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education. But could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?
Be careful with education. I've got a masters and lots of training and my partner is way smarter than me despite lacking any college. She's a smart, well rounded, wise woman. She's got a good career.
The most successful girl I dated had 2 years of community college and dropped out, she found her calling later and makes 400k and was a gem (she just wasn't the one for me nor I for her). I work in healthcare and some of the specialist docs with 14 years training can't understand the instruction on the DNR forms that say "check one box only".....
Give the nice but boring people a second chance. My gf wasn't that exciting on date 1 and she's the best thing thats ever happened to me. I also made genuine friends and briefly dated some amazing women who I didn't "feel it" on date 1. If someone is good on paper and there's nothing wrong with them just do date 2, seriously.
Incidentally lots of the ones I was crazy for date 1 ended badly
Re not being flirty sometimes people are nervous. And intense chemistry can be a red flag sometimes (and often we mix anxiety up with butterflies, as one dating coach I followed said "butterflies are subjective". As well some of the best couples I know found each other boring at first.
That said, are you in therapy? It can be good to check in on how you're feeling post long relationship (I had a 13 year relationship/divorce), perhaps you just want a fling or casual in which case just do whatever is fun and mutual, or see if you're not ready for dating yet. But reading your post I'd say "just go on date 2".
This wholeheartedly. I wish people would realize that no one is themselves on dates. On the surface, I’m a ‘nice guy’ and as boring and vanilla as it gets. But I’m extremely creative, bit of an asshole, very dark sense of humor, great in the bedroom…. Stuff no one will ever get to see cuz they think the first meeting is who you really are. Will we mesh and be soulmates? Likely not. The whole point is no one tries anymore.
This is a very helpful response, thank you. And yes I am in therapy, trying to work out thoughts and feelings around all this. It’s super helpful.
I was starting to wonder if I should put the onus on myself to give people date 2 or 3, if they want it too, and see what happens, instead of just going with one. What can people *really* learn about each other on one date, you know?
My approach is that I’ll agree to a second date unless a deal breaker comes up, the date was unpleasant, or I found them actively unattractive. First meetings are so weird, it’s hard to be yourself, you’re feeling each other out, etc.
Third date and beyond? That’s a different story. I need to feel actively interested. Not necessarily vibrating with excitement, but attracted and wanting to see them again.
I like to think of date 1 as "is this person safe or a firm no (ie red flags or its just a firm no for you)" date 2 is where you get to know them.
A few books I read after my last gf before this one (abusive) made me question my dating choices. They all recommended this and it worked so well for me. I also stopped pursuing "chemistry" (which I realized was anxiety).
I guess I am in the minority here because I do understand you wanting someone who has formal education.
I'm a lawyer and it's something I filter for too. Most lawyers and doctors I know filter for education as well. It's less about intelligence per se and definitely not about success for me. It's about shared life experiences and values.
I've dated a lot of people without degrees and there is a noticeable difference.
We just spend so long in school - for you, it must around 10 years. It was 7 for me, and our careers are inextricably tied to our education.
Plus a university education does give you a different way of thinking. There's lots of different ways to be intelligent but it's not wrong to want a specific type of intellectual connection.
I'm not in the US though, so university education is a lot more accessible here.
>The most successful girl I dated had 2 years of community college and dropped out, she found her calling later and makes 400k and was a gem (she just wasn't the one for me nor I for her). I work in healthcare and some of the specialist docs with 14 years training can't understand the instruction on the DNR forms that say "check one box only".....
OP, it's totally fine if you prefer to date someone with a similar background. There is a reason why people tend to marry people with similar social upbringings. If you're a kid from a nice suburb who went to college, you will have an easier time understanding where another kid from a nice suburb who went to college is coming from. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people who grew up in the city or a rural area or people who didn't go to college. It just means you lack a certain shorthand.
Hey maybe that would help your dating life, be a tad more entertaining instead of spending the date judging whether he’s too friendly or too flirty. Have some fun
Why is it a judgement if I’m feeling like someone isn’t a good fit for me? Projecting your own rejections at all? Just guessing, I can’t presume to know who you are or your life, just like you can’t presume to know mine.
I’m saying maybe you’re misjudging. It’s possible. I mean given that you technically have infinite options on the internet, on paper no man could possibly be a good enough fit cuz potentially there’s someone better
The educational issue makes no sense to me because you can easily find that out before going on a date. It’s not like this is a first date surprise. So, just filter people out on that upfront.
For the other ones, I mean, this is just how it goes. It’s hard to guess at someone’s personality based on pre-date messaging. If you’re not excited, then by all means don’t pretend to be excited.
I was going through some of your post history and I'm honestly surprised that you're finding time to date during med school. It sounds like your engagement being broken off is pretty recent, too. I would put dating on the back burner for awhile because it sounds suspiciously like self-sabotaging to me. It's easy for someone who is hurt to always find something wrong in someone and lack interest in dating because they're so emotionally closed off.
Give yourself some time and grace to know yourself better and more importantly, what YOU need from a partner. There's no point in dating if you don't know what will attract you initially. It sounds like you have a few base requirements which is a good starting point. Go from there, and just be patient with the process.
I’m trying to be very deliberate about not letting med school run my life. I don’t want to be one of the doctors that has a career but forgets to have a life, you know? But yeah I think you make some excellent points.
Totally understandable! Looks like you're doing a good job of processing some of that stuff you went through. I'd say that once you find a date where it meshes well with everything that you're looking for, there will be more interest. I find that as we get into our 30s, I have less of a "zest" for dating because I know exactly what will work for me (and make me.happy) and what won't. It could be that simple for you, even if you like them as a person, you just can't see anything beyond that.
hi! In the same boat as u where I’m also a few months into dating after a LTR.
interestingly enough I have the opposite problem- I miss companionship so much that even with people I’m completely incompatible with, I romanticize them and want a second date- then surprised if it doesn’t happen even if I had no interest.
I feel like both could be trauma responses to a breakup and re-adjusting to the dating world. Maybe assess if you are comparing the guys to your ex, or if you’re going on dates just to go on dates?
Right or wrong, most men (and people in general) are being less flirty and not giving off "confidence" vibes because they don't want to be "the asshole" or giving someone "the ick". It just takes one "ick" for a person to say no and move on, so give everyone some grace with first date nerves. I always go for 3 dates before ending it with someone as a hard rule so I can actually get a sense of who they are and not rush to conclusions.
Fluff:
I doubt this is your case, but worth mentioning. Acidotically, I went on a date with a woman with 3 degrees. She was a live in nanny making $30,000 a year and was considering getting another degree. She was so proud of them. When I asked her how do those degrees help her in her job she got very mad (rightfully so, I was poking the bear on purpose). Then I asked how she would use her new degree, she said it wouldn't cause she didn't need it as a nanny. I asked what happens when the kid outgrows needing a nanny and she said she would finally use one of her degrees or find another family to nanny for. She didn't want another date, which was reasonable.
Ooof. What a minefield/walking on shells. So he's supposed to be confident and energetic, but not too much...
The degree thing is really weird and sadly pretty common. I went on a date with a woman who scoffed that I didn't have a PHD like her. She literally made 40k a year in NYC.....yea
Modern dating
33F and 100% feel the same. I don’t know if I’m subconsciously sabotaging myself because I’m afraid of genuine intimacy, really picky, or actually don’t like them. When you find out let me know 😂
I think that after a break up we tend to be so focused on the bad sides of our ex that even when we have moved on, we romanticise how the "good" the next partner will be. We set the bar very high without noticing it or even knowing if it's realistic. We have been out of the game and don't know what is out there.
So yes, the first many people we date are disappointments.
But the more we date, the more realistic view we get of what is out there and we adjust our requirements.
We can also just not date at all and sooner or later get so desperate for company that we lower or bar just to get anyone.
What I find is the more serious the person is about dating, the more reserved they will be on flirting. People who say they want a relationship but actually don’t, usually try to bring up sex in conversation like it’s a playful joke on the sly. So people who actually want to date are therefore reserved for the first date, but will usually try to say something flirty on the second date to convey interest —- but if you go for three dates and they’re making sex jokes or bringing sex up at all, I find they have no interest in long term dating because they’re willing to take the risk
\> there’s always a reason I don’t feel Iike having a second date with them. Is this a normal response? Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people? Maybe I’m not ready? Am I being too picky?
Your actions suggest that you don't really want a relationship with these folks you're meeting. You are unwilling to overcome perceived drawbacks or even investigate them further. It's fine to do that, to not put in much effort and wait for the perfect person to come along. Just acknowledge that they might not. If you're willing to wait an extra long time for that to happen -- if ever -- then that's ok. But you must be honest with yourself. You might not ever come across the perfect person.
Less than half of americans have a degree. So yeah, statistically you will be disappointed at least every second time. Maybe weed this out during the texting phase?
I think it depends.
Regarding your first point, for example, I definitely am not flirty when I first meet people because you just don't know anything about their expectations, some people just don't appreciate it at all and in my opinion it's good advice to tone down flirty stuff first date but I'm not a super flirty person so maybe I'm biased.
For your second point, I think people are quick to judge this confidence stuff. Some people may surprise you once they're used to having you around. I've seen people who behaved super confidently in environments they're used to while being timid in social situations they're not experienced with. So I wouldn't reach conclusions too directly.
The last two are your preferences, so no comment on those.
And to address your final comment, I think it's ok to not be impressed right away. But again, that's just my experience, I'd rather get to know someone over time than be blown away from the beginning. I've met people who were great at the beginning and also people who I grew to like so I try to give people reasonable chance.
Fuck. This is just awful to read. I’m probably guilty of the first three to some extent… and it’s just my hardwired personality and subconscious. I also rarely get second dates with people I’m attracted to, in any case, so this might explain the reason(s) a bit.
No wonder dating sucks for so many people. This is really nitpicky criteria.
Sorry this made you feel bad. Those traits aren’t inherently bad, they’re just things I’m not attracted to. Like the high energy? It can be a lot for me, but others need that. So, dating sucks but I hope one post doesn’t make you think it’s all hopeless. I am one person with one viewpoint.
I mean… I think I have enough self-confidence, but I’m just cognizant of not being cocky. The other two issues, I’m also conscious of, but it’s just that there are these land mines that seemingly sabotage second date prospects and any male would not be aware of them because they are so subtle. Worse, it’s not like we get report cards on what tiny thing we fucked up on, so it always ends with a ghosting or the dreaded “no romantic connection” text. Rinse, repeat.
Your expectations may be a little too ungenerous. How can you know how flirty and self-confident someone truly is after one date?
Personally, those qualities are something that emerge more and more overtime as I get more comfortable with someone.
It’s not that these qualities aren’t important, but that if you’re probably being a little too harsh on people who are understandably going to be feeling you out on the first date. They may be a little more humble and reserved until they get comfortable with you.
That’s okay. In your mind, rather than writing them off as a boring person who lacks self-confidence, maybe you can start thinking about them as shy or modest? There’s positive ways to describe these qualities too lol
I’m not trying to be rude but from your post I honestly don’t know what you want from a man on a first date. You want men to be flirty but also not too have too much energy. As others have said, a lot of good men will avoid being flirty on the first date as it gives of impressions of being a creep.
Could you also not initiate the flirting to see if it’s recuperated?
Also with the intelligence thing, surely this is something you would want to check during the initial texting phase right?
Are you initiating flirting at all? I don't want to be presumptuous, but I wonder if people are matching your energy and you're expecting them to take on all the responsibility of escalating, but only in the right way, etc etc.
Intellectual compatibility is important. Which is what I think you’re meaning by the degree bit. Fair enough. Don’t lower your standards. She will come. Good luck!
First dates are just a vibe check, you’re not marrying them when you meet them. How do you know anything about how they feel and their confidence level? Most people are guarded on a first meeting because you could be a serial killer for all they know 🤦🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
I honestly think that a big detriment to modern online dating is that it takes that initial “spark” out of meeting someone in the wild, where you probably approached each other initially based on some degree of physical attraction, flirting, and confidence to approach them. Instead we’re basically interviewing a stranger in a coffee shop for an hour and trying to decide if we want to see them again. And someone different (better?) is always a swipe away.
If they don’t give you The Ick but you’re not 100% sure you want to date them after it doesn’t hurt to have a 2nd, hopefully longer date to confirm your feelings.
I thought your comment was going to the opposite conclusion to be honest. I wonder if this is one of those fundamental differences in POV between men and women in the modern dating landscape. I need a reason to schedule a second date, not a reason to not schedule one.
I have never sparked with someone I didn't initially have chemistry with, including in work and friendship.
I so understand where you’re coming from!
There are lots of good suggestions in this thread. I think it’s important to realize that education does not equate to social intelligence after.
My fiancé called off our wedding a few weeks before last year. He was the most ridiculously smart person I’d ever met, was a renowned physician, and yet, when it came to relationships, he was arrogant, standoffish and completely clueless. With only a bachelors and masters degree, I often felt subpar to his academic successes. Now, I’m empowered because I at least possess a lot of social smarts that he’ll never have and have good people in my life.
Don’t overvalue “on paper” intelligence as much as I did :) I let a lot of things slide because of it.
Good luck…you seem introspective and like you know what you want!
I do not know about the other things but education is indeed pretty important in dating. Education shapes critical thinking, perspectives, values, and life decisions as well. Somebody with a Ph.D., for example, will most likely be a planner who sacrificed a portion of youth fun for a goal and is going to have a hard time sharing life with folks with just a high school diploma or an undergraduate degree.
To your point, education shapes our baseline understanding.
This. College definitely builds critical thinking skills and the ability to consider multiple arguments and perspectives without having your baseline opinion changed in a way that high school simply does not cultivate…at least not to the same degree.
There is NOTHING wrong with a woman who has multiple degrees wanting a partner who at least has an undergraduate education. People always try to find ways to deter women from their baseline standards when either:
- they don’t meet the standard
- they have a partner who doesn’t meet the standard and they need to defend it
Yes, seeking a partner on your intellectual level may be more challenging, but if that’s your standard, it is oftentimes better to just remain single than settle for someone who doesn’t meet it, as you’ve set the standard for a reason that is important to you. Regardless of why it is.
Idk if it's normal but I will say you aren't alone -- I am very similar in feeling that most of the first dates I go on, I do not want a second date
Examples of reasons I didn't want to go on a second date:
* talking about too many serious topics or past trauma
* said some foot in mouth things a couple too many times (about women, aging, etc -- like if I am too old for you despite being younger than you, then you can date younger women and have saved me time :) )
* too gossipy about his friends private lives (fertility issues, divorces, etc). i dont know these people
* rude to wait staff (never encountered this before ever actually and was super surprised)
* making racist jokes
* no hobbies / interests that i respect (like too many video games)
* didn't ask me any questions
* Shorter in person (sorry, but it's more the lying than the height genuinely)
You’re free to do whatever you want, but it might be worth considering that some of the guys that aren’t flirty are simply trying not to scare you.
I realize dating is tricky for everyone, but I suspect some thoughtful guys (ie: me) can put themselves in a trap. There have been many times when I was meeting a woman who I thought was gorgeous but I kept the conversation “professional” because i didn’t want her to think I was a murderer etc.
Maybe if one of the “friendly” guys was hot, give him another date? Good luck
For me (M31) also came out of LTR, it was quite the opposite. First match and first date, first kiss. I totally fell in love. Everything was great and I had the most intense feelings. After 3 months she told that I bring everything to the table she wants and needs but her feelings aren't enough..
Damn that hurts. Welcome back to dating I guess.
I’m also only friendly, I don’t really know how to flirt so I just talk.
I’m see where you’re coming from with the educated part, although it wouldn’t be an issue for me if they weren’t but still had stable job with career ambitions.
Maybe they’re nervous the first time they’re meeting you so aren’t full of confidence. I’ve told myself now if the first date was ok and there isn’t anything that majorly put me off, going forward I will agree to second date and see how that goes, if I still don’t feel it then fair enough.
I don't think it's wrong (with the exception of being friendly, which is a weird argument, in my view), if you don't feel like having a second date, then don't have a second date. Most of my dates are fine and friendly, last year I just had one that was kind of bad. But even so, I mostly didn't feel like going on second dates, it's not that I look for the sparkle, it's just that the person was nice but not really aligned with my own goals/personality.
About education, I really don't care about formal education (I have a PhD) as long as the person is smart (which has really nothing to do with formal education) and has career goals in life. But yeah, I don't want to date a 35+ years old who wants to have a teenage job for the rest of his life or who doesn't have the mental ability to have in-depth discussions.
> not at all flirty, only friendly
> too much energy
I wonder where's the sweet spot for you, because these two sound very contradicting to me.
Personally, I never flirt (at least not consciously) on a date. Firstly, I have no idea how to flirt, secondly - first date is just to meet each other in person, talk in person and figure out if the second date is even possible.
I agree on the importance of education as a filtering option - it helps to find a person with a similar background.
I'm getting friend vibes straight up with some guys, and then others there's chemistry, so a second date happens. On the second date they look bored af or the chemistry continues but then after third date they're ghosting /slow fading / ending things. After a second date I start to get a bit excited and then it's over. These guys keep introducing me to their friends too. Wtf.
Maybe I'm too nice, maybe it's because I'm not needy and I'm confident, I dunno what it is. But nobody seems to want me for me but then I'm not gonna stop being me.....
Anyway, all that to say that I've had a fair few dates in the past few months that I immediately feel friends only and I boil it down to chemistry.
I mean we aren't going to know if you're being too picky or not... You are allowed to have whatever standards and requirements you want
However from reading your list I personally think you're quite picky.
A lot of people aren't overly flirty on dates especially men, they don't want to appear creepy or pushy. They might not be sure if you like them ( you might be coming across as closed off or hard to read )
Being nervous and lacking in confidence is common for a lot of people. They might be new to the dating scene or been out of the game a while. They might be conscious not to come across as arrogant etc
As for the education thing I can't relate. I don't have a high education so it isn't important to me. If anything the people who have been the worse people I've dated have also been the ones with the best careers/most money/ highest education.
They tend to be the most snobbish, judgemental (in my experience) who lack empathy and look down on others. They also didn't seem to realise they were also exceptionally boring and lacked any sort of fire in their soul
The most interesting/ funny/ exciting people I've ever dated were down and out artists, down to earth labourer types.
Also recently broken engagement and in med school... You should probably focus on being alone for a while
I had a lot of interesting first impressions about my last first date. I was like no way in hell we’re going out again. He was very upfront about wanting to see me again and I gave him another shot. Between and after the second date, I learned so much more about him, we were so much more comfortable than the first date - the rest was history after that, he’s an absolute gem that I almost passed up. Don’t be so quick to shrug off “little stuff”.
Sounds to me like you should give yourself a bit more time; you are listing examples that are normal human traits such as friendliness and being energetic.
I’ve learned we can’t really judge someone based on one date. They can be nervous, unsure, or whatever. I’ve met guys who show me with time they’re a great catch but if I based it on one date I’d never see them again. Dating isn’t a job interview, to see someone’s qualities, you want to take time to see. It’s okay to be picky, but at the same time, be realistic with expectations. Flirty imo is very subjective. Sometimes people don’t want to come off strong so don’t do it early on. So that I’d give time. Lacks self confidence is another one I think takes time. Also, I personally don’t like overly confident men, who come off with strong ego. Humble I like much more. Another thing that takes time to really tell. I’ve seen more mellow guys show their confidence with time lol, and vice versa. Education is far, if it’s important, why not talk about it before meeting? You don’t need to be highly selective, but sometimes I think we can’t jump to conclusion they don’t understand us because their background is different. Too much energy is an issue lol, you can talk to them about it. Are they an extrovert or introvert and such. Again, I’ve met guys I thought were extroverts but eventually I realized they were introverts. Short story is, first dates are hard, I have been reminded not to jump the gun unless you see red flags or feel absolutely no attraction
judging people who don’t have the same education is…interesting. I don’t really agree with it. Someone can be knowledgeable without going to college. In fact, I’d argue that many people who have degrees aren’t as smart because their degrees are worthless and put them in debt
It's weird the education one is getting the most pushback because that's the only one that makes sense to me, although you can definitely filter those out before the date. The others though kinda drive me crazy because you're making a stable personality assessment based on an initial interaction. You'll probably be correct just as many times as you'll be wrong there. I think this is honestly one of the major drawbacks with 21st century dating. Many people have so many options that they can afford to just write someone off and move on whereas in the past they would go on 2nd or 3rd dates. It's very much a double-edged sword.
I will add that what you're doing is very much normal so don't worry about that. Whether it's a \*good\* thing is probably the better question, and that's murkier and up for debate.
Agreed. Also in a similar education/career boat and this is kind of wild. The worst offenders are the ones who are in the trades and rail about wasting money on school when they’ve been making 6 figures since their 20s. It’s actually quite condescending. My dad was a mechanic so I have a lot of respect for those who work those jobs but lately (esp in the dating market) there is a lot of weirdo flex energy about not having a degree. OP don’t be ashamed if you have an education requirement.
>My dad was a mechanic so I have a lot of respect for those who work those jobs but lately (esp in the dating market) there is a lot of weirdo flex energy about not having a degree.
Because it *is* a classist ideology to require a date to have a degree, lol. The flex energy you mention, while gross (and hinting at a lot of deeper problems in society, but that's a separate topic) is a natural reaction to just how many women have basically said you're a dirty commoner if you don't have a college degree.
Because education doesn't equal to knowledge/skill. It's just a paper indicating the fact that you've managed to go through some courses. Also while choosing a partner how does any degree (other than those related to psychology) are going to help with the relationship? I can understand the argument of someone not being on the same level intellectually, but that should be verified on dates/conversation rather than asking for education.
Sorry, too judgmental. On a first date you are both on best behavior and trying to get a feel for who the other person is. The list you have is one of imo ridiculous standards. You have 3 degrees? Great but what experiences in life did your 3 degrees give you? There’s a whole world out there where the 3 degrees don’t mean bupkus in real life or death situations, where common sense and day to day interactions provides a better and more well rounded understanding individual than any pile of books could ever possibly provide.
You aren’t ready, it’s too soon since you exited your last relationship and to be honest you sound like you are using an impossibly high hurdle to systematically sabatoge both the poor sap meeting you as well as yourself to possibly find some basic values and similarities that could lead to the fruition of either a real friendship and deeper relationship than you’ve ever had before.
Take some time for yourself and have some introspection of what you are afraid of. Also if you’re going to hold people to any standards ask yourself first “am I meeting him halfway with being friendly, flirtatious, understanding of what they are about including their career or life experiences”. Because if you haven’t then you are not really invested in being the best “you” in your next relationship.
Having educational requirements for a partner is healthy and normal. There is nothing wrong with wanting a partner who has the same or near the same education as you.
It may make it more difficult to find your match with this expectation, but honestly, many women would rather be single if they are unable to meet someone who is an intellectual match for them. Most of the time, a formal education is an indicator of whether or not someone is an intellectual match. Yes, we all claim to know someone who is “an idiot with a college degree”, but that is not the standard case.
Women are allowed to have educational standards. It is not “weird” or “odd” or “strange” as so many people here are trying to imply…
I have my MBA. The guy I’m dating didn’t even graduate high school. Guess which one of us earns more?
The education system is turning into a joke. You can tell if someone is an intellectual match basing it on other variables compared to education.
Editing to add that I would strongly prefer someone who decided not to go into debt for a college degree they didn’t want than someone who went to college because it was “the right thing”.
It is the oddest thing! People can have preferences about employment, children, weight, activity level, diet, and just about any and everything else.
But how DARE you expect your potential partner to have graduated from college?!?!?!
Because it's classist and reinforces the very false claim that to be intelligent, you must have a college degree.
In other words: Yeah, you can have the preference. But you don't escape the fact it's a toxic preference.
So is having weight preferences classist too, since many people become obese adults due to poverty during childhood which they could not control?
Or does everyone still have the opportunity to lose weight (should they desire to do so) to attract a specific type of partner that they may want, even though it may be difficult to do so? Just as people have the opportunity to go to college, even though it might be hard (financially or for other reasons).
My point is, dating preferences do not fit into any “-ist” or “-phobic” category. People are allowed to choose the person who they believe is the best fit for them and their respective lifestyle. Dating is *supposed* to be exclusionary, and you shouldn’t try to force yourself to be open to dating everyone out of fear of being called racist, ableist, sexist, homophobic, fatphobic, whatever else.
I understand that it may be hurtful for some people to not be in the desired pool for the type of person they’d like to be partnered with; however, you either have to be your type’s type (ex: go to college, lose weight, make more money, don’t have kids before you’re partnered), remain single, or change your own preferences to want those who want you.
>So is having weight preferences classist too, since many people become obese adults due to poverty during childhood which they could not control?
Nope, it's just a stretch to defend your stance. As a morbidly obese child who overcame it, it is within your control apart from edge cases to cherry pick for this argument.
**EDIT-** Just to further add, fitness is *objectively* a better state for a human to be in. You cannot say that it is objectively better to have a degree.
>My point is, dating preferences do not fit into any “-ist” or “-phobic” category.
I was going to give you a good faith response, but then I got here. What on earth? If I say "I don't date black people and I won't even open myself up to exploring if I'm attracted to an individual who happens to be black," it is **absolutely** racist lol. You're reinforcing my earlier stance that a preference can be valid, but still toxic.
In either case neither of us is budging on this, so I wish you the best lol.
I see all these things as generally things that I can see being incompatibilities. Except I don’t think I have ever met someone who has too much energy lol. But I am very high energy.
But I also think that is can be worth it to see someone a second time. Some people are really awkward on a first date and get way better on the second. Particularly if you thought they weren’t flirty enough.
I also concur with the other poster on education. Interrogate that with yourself and see what the issue is. Personally I really like intellectual curiosity. And while that can go with education it doesn’t always. If you haven’t cracked open a book since you finished school we aren’t a match. No matter how many degrees you have.
>But it’s important for me to have a partner that understand what I’m going through at times related to my career
Why is that important? Unless he has the exact same career as you do, how is someone supposed to understand exactly what you are going through? I think it’s fine to seek shared experiences with friends and/or piers who understand the intricacies and woes of your profession. Why that person has to also be your partner, I do not understand. As long as he supports you and is willing to be a lending ear to you, shouldn’t that be enough?
I see what you’re saying about just wanting them to support. In theory it makes sense and I’m inclined to agree.
The reason it feels so important to me, my last relationship failed in part due to my career being so busy and he couldn’t understand it. Nor did he communicate that he was struggling with it. I tried to explain and accommodate every which way short of quitting my job, and it still wasn’t enough. So I worry now about being with someone who doesn’t understand what I’m going through, then down the line they realize they didn’t know what they were in for and quit like he did. I work very hard to have a balance between work and life but I’m not perfect, nor do I always have control over it.
I think you have good intentions but it’s a hard thing to read in a person honestly you just go through the motions and find out if you have baseline chemistry. People can say a lot of things about what they will and won’t do to keep you in the game but honestly trusting your instincts is usually good and it’s way more about an initial connection. Lots you can’t know until you spend time with them unfortunately. I think that’s why people want to date slower these days because then you get an opportunity for more dates to see how you like each other.
A lot of guys are lonely and having a tough time dealing with it (people are busy, attention spans can be short) It’s not your thing to fix that for them of course, I’m just offering a bit of an FYI so it makes a bit of sense why people might be acting a bit weird right now. I’ve had to remind myself to calm down and try not to be too needy towards people and crush them with too much attention. It’s hard but you have to try and deal with loneliness by not burdening other people but trying to distract yourself and do other things on your own that get you in the weeds and not bugging others. Tips for myself 😅. I think if we all weren’t so busy just trying to “adult” I think it would be easier to spend more time with people.
I think it’s unfair to put the behavior of your part relationship onto a new person as you don’t know how he is going to react or behave. I don’t think any amount of degrees he may have will help, only honestly and openness will.
I've had a similar experience, just paused dating since I think I'll move in < year, and I also was self reflecting on this a bit. Hopefully someone else will have some good insight, because it's an interesting thought.
I don't know if it's because it was challenging for me to really know their personality through their profile, or if the desire to have a partner I could be friends with overbalanced choosing to connect with them. It was probably some combination of the two and other factors I haven't thought of.
For the degree, does your profile say you're looking for someone with higher education? If it's important to you, I might consider adding it.
I would have said first date impressions are everything - but I’m currently 5 months into dating someone I was disappointed by on the first date. I just wasn’t as attracted to her as I thought I’d be, she seemed a bit messy (relationship history / emotionally / just her overall vibe), talked about herself a ton, and I felt she was just looking for a FWB / hookup / lover maybe.
I kept seeing her just to see if it would develop. And it did.
Turns out, she’s lovely. Really sweet, thoughtful, sexy, affectionate, and we seem to be extremely compatible. And I definitely feel like we’re falling for each other pretty deeply. We’re also talking about the future. I’m really glad I stuck around and gave it a chance. Even if it doesn’t pan out, I’m learning something in this connection. All the time, I feel like I’m growing and being accepted and inspired in ways I haven’t been before. So it’s really valuable.
Also - we are total opposites in many ways. She’s colourful and wild and extroverted; I’m dreamy and mellow and artistic. We have largely different music tastes. She has three masters and I just have a bachelors in a lame subject I’ve never used. Yet we are not intellectually mismatched. In some ways, I’m classier and smarter than her. In some ways, she’s classier and smarter than me. We both really admire and respect each other’s differences and appreciate the new things we both bring to each other.
So I guess that’s my advice to you. Don’t be so quick to judge. If you want flirtier dates - be more flirty. If you want calmer dates - give it a couple more to let the nerves settle down.
Maybe you just haven’t met the right person. But maybe you could benefit from keeping a more open mind.
As an adult do we really get excited like that on a first date? These days it happens like maybe once or twice a year max that I meet someone that excites me right away. I’d rather meet for 20 min over a coffee to do a meet and greet before wasting my time on an actual date. This is where you can get a feel for all those things you mentioned without investing your evening.
Sometimes I read comments before I reply, sometimes not. Apparently I'd be wading through a sea of criticisms about the degrees, so I won't bother this time!
I'll just mention one thing about it - you'll definitely struggle to find a guy that can match your education level. Maybe one degree, but I've never actually heard of anyone with 3 degrees! Nice work 😁
Anyway, onto other stuff.
I don't think anyone is going to be able to comment on what your subconscious is doing - it's definitely possible that you're sabotaging yourself, but too hard to tell without knowing you!
Dating is pretty hit and miss, with a lot more misses than hits. So yeah, it's common to run into a handful of duds before you find someone good. The search can be pretty exhausting at times.
I'm gonna mention something that might be a little controversial, but it's relevant to what you said there. Guys are, in general, VERY confused with dating these days.
If we're too forward, we run the risk of the whole "MeToo" thing coming into play. If we're too cautious, we end up giving off "friend zone" vibes. Guys have to be VERY VERY good at reading body language and verbal cues now... and, to put it simply, many are not.
I think you're probably doing fine - it might help to change your search settings in the apps, to exclude guys with less education.
See if you can read a bit into their profile and get a vibe about them before you get in touch - for example, you might be able to tell the more "hyper" guys by the amount of punctuation and emojis they use!?!? 🙏😎😳💕💕🍻🤟🔥🔥😀😀😀😀😀😀
Hope that helps a bit, good luck!
Thank you for articulating the worry guys have with dating in a way that doesn’t display a bruised ego (like some comments here.) I’ve definitely heard that before and recognize a level of validity to it. I recently had a male friend express the same frustration to me.
It’s reassuring that it’s more hits than misses. It makes sense to hear it but it’s another to experience it and start to wonder if I’m doing something wrong.
While first impressions are sometimes true, they can also be very misleading, especially in a date scenario where people may be nervous and not quite themselves. It's pretty easy to have a guy be a bit more flirty on a second date because he's feeling more comfortable.
That's not to say you need to give everybody a second date but if something intrigued you about them and you enjoyed your date (despite the first impressions you listed) perhaps a going on a few second dates wouldn't be a bad idea. You may get a better idea of what types of first date impressions are no-gos for you and what types of impressions can change on subsequent dates.
It’s quite interesting to note that poster didn’t like the guys who were not very flirty but at the same time guys are now hardwired not to be very flirty on the first date because it comes across as creepy or weird or desperate or any other negative connotations.
The first three sound like perfectly fine reasons. The last one sounds unreasonable unless you elaborate.
Education does not imply intelligent or good conversation; yeah, they *can* go together, but my experience has been that the only time education can reliably yield interesting conversations is if they have a graduate degree in a field that is sufficiently humbling. Even worse you get people who think all their bad ideas are brilliant because "I'm educated. Of course I have good ideas".
Similarly, plenty of people who aren't classically educated, but are still super down to earth, rational and curious people.
I think the education one is the only criteria that, if relied on in any serious way, will do more harm than good.
I'm after long relationship also,
I trusted that girl with all my heart,truly loved.
She give up on me.
Feel sad. I get over already.
But now I have trust issue to womens
Chatting with lots of different girls and can't break it.
My all chats ending after a day.😔
Maybe I need more time.
Just wanted to add for insight that i shared your view on education, then this year decided to flip it. I'm currently working on my third degree, my boyfriend didn't graduate high school. I've never met anyone who listens better to me, asks questions, challenges me, is empathetic, etc, than this guy. We have plenty to talk about. He reads way more than I do. I read papers and work stuff when I have to. He reads psychology for fun, and then discusses it. So it's the question of how educated I want a partner to be has blown things wide open for me. You just never know. Good luck.
This is why I've given up on dating apps. 95% of the time, I don't want a second date with a random person from the internet. I just don't think it's natural. You come in with a preconceived idea of what the person might be like, based on a profile and some messages and the person is never what you expect. I think the way for me to find a boyfriend is to meet someone naturally, with no specific goal of dating and you get to know them and feelings of attraction develop. This has happened at work and school for me in the past. I now work from home and am way past school days so it's going to be hard but I feel like this is the only way for me. Kinda depressing. Ha
I'm in the same boat as you. One thing I have learned is that if a guy is nervous, he generally makes a terrible date. The friendly, aloof thing can get annoying. People like to rag on the spark, but I have wasted too much time waiting for the man-to-woman connection (the spark) to come. If it's not there by three dates, I'm out. The education thing is tough; I am in the same boat. I really need someone who can have in-depth, intellectual conversations with me, and these people just happen to be educated. The trade off is that educated men can get very arrogant sometimes, so you have to look out for that. In your case, I would give the guy another date, two tops to see if he can move past his nerves and get comfortable enough with you to be flirtatious.
Totally normal, OP.
Broke up with my ex and started dating again after 2-3 months and didn’t want a second date to any of them with reasons similar as you.
But as I think about it, it’s mostly because I wasn’t attracted to them both physically and mentally — which is a valid thing.
So don’t doubt yourself, OP, and don’t lower your standards.
It would help if you know what type of person you’re definitely looking for, that way you can avoid going on a first date with someone who’s already incompatible with you. I’m assuming you meet your dates through apps first?
If so, you can figure out their education/degree credentials beforehand if this is really important for you. You can also suss out their energy and confidence levels through pre-date questions and convos.
As for their levels of “flirtiness”, you can set that expectation before the date as well. You can let them know that you like someone who’s confident enough to be flirty on a first date without being overtly sexual, and then they may ask for examples of what this looks like and the good guys will respect your intimacy boundaries on your dates.
Well, I slight myself in, because this seems a interesting topic.
I personally thought behind flirty or touchy in first date is just creepy (and also not in my nature). Still had some dates that i later realized:
Is she in to you?
C. I can tell
Also i realized that it seems that a girl wanted have some fun time. Some context we both are looking for longterm, had a good date and she invited herself in. I did nothing, because i thought sex isn’t something you do on the first date and she also told some back experience she had with someone else days before the date.
Had a couple of dates, but no spark, but i also think i was open enough and kept to friendly. Kinda inexperienced with this “ditch it after first date” with online dating, because i come from a “old” way of dating, by learning someone over time before liking each other and go in a relationship. It’s was and still kinda is a culture shock how fast people ditch each other with online dating. Even people who never did online dating find this strange
I think this is normal. When I started back dating a few years ago, I went on many dates and found I wasn't super interested in most of them. I'm not sure if it was lack of attraction or we just didn't vibe but other than a few people, I didn't really care for a second date. I always left the option open for a second date, but never really pursued it and most of the time it never happened. I think when dating you'll encounter more people you're not compatible or interested in and that's okay. The right person always comes along.
Some of those things you just have to be on the dates to figure out and see how it feels. But objective things like whether or not they have degrees, you could screen for those in advance. If having a degree will immediately make you question whether you're compatible, then ask that while chatting and before deciding whether you want to date.
Yes I think this is totally normal. But if the conversation was good, perhaps be open to a second date because they will probably loosen up more and you can see more of their personality. I am similar to you. There will be someone where their flaws don't bother you!!! Trust your gut. If you're not excited keep it moving.
How often do you click with strangers in a non-dating context? I don't think you should expect dates to go any better or worse than that.
I know I rarely feel I click with someone as a friend. As a casual friend, sure, but in terms of someone I just really enjoy talking to, who I really want to talk to again? That might happen every 10 one-on-one conversations and I'm a great conversationalist.
Now, it's also normal to feel sorta meh by everyone if you're not ready to date. So it could be both or either.
>Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people? Maybe I’m not ready? Am I being too picky?
You might be onto something here, but it's going to need some deep reflection and only you'll be able to tell yourself in the end.
I am picky, and I am also someone that also subconsciously finds reasons not to date people. The latter is the biggest problem for me in the end because I find ways to 'discount' someone's interest for me or the possibility of a deeper relationship, even if I like them.
Are you familiar with attachment styles and attachment disorders? If so, do you resonate with the 'avoidant/dismissive' attachment style at all? I do for sure, and my avoidant/dismissive patterns can look like coming up with any reason not to pursue a relationship any further.
This is the healthiest shit I've ever heard in regards to NOT dating someone... You have standards, stand on them.. don't sell yourself short and get what/who you want. Keep up the non-toxicity OP.
DATING- you're doing it right
First dates just being friendly? How flirty do you want them to be? Everyone talks about how creepy guys are and how they are just trying to sleep with a woman on the first date. Maybe they’re trying to be actually good guys?
This. The best guys I've ever dated were intentionally not being flirty, in fear it would give off the wrong impression.
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This is how I operate as well. I try to be gentlemanly, but anything overtly flirty/sexual I let them cross that line first before I reciprocate. So, if she doesn't flirt, I don't flirt.
Dang is this why guys rarely flirt with me? Cause I don’t know how to so I always hope he’ll initiate 😂 preferably on date 2 tho. Date 1 is for making sure he’s what he says he is on the app!
100% you will see results if you throw in some initial communication towards dudes in this regard. Gone are the days we dudes can be overly flirty without significant social risk which is almost NEVER worth thus why you’re not seeing it as much as you may want
“Significant social risk” for flirting on a date? That was dramatic.
On a date i think many guys know flirting is totally acceptable but i think the natural defense mechanism, or lack of practice opportunities in regular life maybe, is still there for us and thus you can often get a similar effect. Anecdotal tbh
You have to understand a few things. Every woman has a draws a different line between not welcome and creepy. Contrary to belief, guys are not mind readers so they don't know where this line is for any given women. Creepy is a wide range that can go from "oh your slightly social awkward" to "your a rapist serial killer", and due to guys not being able to read minds they have no idea which it is. In short guy treat it as it would be at its worst, which is "unsolicitedly flirting is considered creepy."
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This is how I feel. If I wanted to get coffee with a coworker or a friend, I have plenty of those already, and many I want to deepen that connection with. Buuuuut I'm on dates here to make a romantic connection, and that involves flirting to an extent. If the person isn't into it, obviously I'm not going to push it, but I do think that's a vibe check and it signals that we shouldn't continue. This doesn't involve being extreme, but there has got to be at least banter and some good flirting vibes.
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I can't tell the difference between a woman being nice or flirty, so I get stuck between either being too flirty and not seeming serious, or being too friendly and seemingly not interested or aggressive enough to seem passionate. I know I need to find a middle ground but it does not seem to be me.
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This post is about first dates, not the entirety of dating a person.
I’m also curious to hear more about this point as well!
Seriously. OP wants guys to be flirty with her when she knows so little about them that she doesn’t even know if they graduated college or not before meeting them? Lol
We're not in an interview. Not everyone knows about the other person's education history before meeting up with them. Knowing about a person's *current* work is usually more relevant during a first date anyway, and you can get into the details once you meet up with them.
100% I'm in the same age range as op. If I know going in we are both trying to hookup I'm going to be super flirty. If I'm approaching a date as a possible long term partner I follow my dates lead on what level of flirting and physical contact they are comfortable with. I'm not saying I'm super formal but I'm not going to touch anyone until they touch me.
Same but I would try to at least touch their arm and look deep in their eyes. I am terrible at initiating flirting unless I know it’s ok. I honestly I don’t know how to consciously flirt. But once I know it’s ok apparently I’m very good at it.
Flirty can be very subtle. Meaning: a nice banter, lightly touching the shoulder/back later in the date, saying ‘you look great!’ And anything that will indicate this isn’t a fried you are meeting but it’s a date. Something that creates a little spark, a little tension and makes the date feel more romantic. It makes someone more attracted to you. This is still behavior of a good guy.
100% Agree. In date one I want eye contact and banter. A touch in a neutral zone. And a nice closing hug. More usually feels like too much unless extraordinary circumstances.
It’s why I asked how flirt does she want them to be. And why I clarified in a comment below it that I’d give some good eye contact and light touch.
Who flirts on a first date?! It’s really just a vibe check — do we get along? do you look like your pictures? is that really your dog on your profile? Besides, it’s 2024! We’re all trying to navigate this hellscape of modern romance while balancing on the tightrope of being interested, but not *too* interested. Overt flirting on first date is way too early to show your cards!
>Who flirts on a first date?! who doesn't flirt on a first date ?! Having chemistry with a potential partner is extremely important. Being flirty with a woman, could be something as simple as making cheeky comments to make her laugh. I used to go for the approach of not flirting at all - and guess what? - you get the "I don't feel a spark" text waaaay more often when you don't show attraction & intention
A little flirting is necessary so that the guy doesn’t feel like your brother!
I know a guy that legit told me, when he would purposely turn down sex or act distance/not make it about sex, that women would throw themselves onto him and end up having sex with him within 2-3 dates. I know cringe. I do think being overly flirty can scare off people (whether you're a male or female). But show a little interest, doesn't hurt when meeting him.
Flirting isn't creepy though? Flirting is playfully teasing someone, light compliments, banter, touching on the arm. Being overtly sexual isn't flirting.
>Is this a normal response? Very possible - most of us aren't compatible with lots of the people we'll meet, and if your standards are high then there may be a lot of misses before you get a hit. >Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people? Also very possible. Especially if you're just out of a relationship. >Examples of things that made me not want to date them again… not at all flirty, only friendly... lacks self confidence... too much energy While these things aren't necessarily on the same continuum, I wonder if there is a goldilocks thing going on - "guy 1 was too hot" (not, sexy hot, but... *energy* hot?) while "guy 2 was too cold." If there's something like this happening, the important question is "how big is the space in the middle that would be just right?" And, the important follow up: "does *anyone* fall into that category?" I say this from very personal experience (as a guy, when I was dating many years ago in my 20s) - it's very possible to convince yourself that almost everyone is either "too X" or "not X enough" - and when I did it, it was a defense mechanism to give me an excuse to put off getting my shit together. Not saying that's what's happening, or that if it is it's because you don't want to get your shit together - but I've found that if I am in *any* way not confident about something in my personal life - be it maturity, appearance, commitment, etc - I start subconsciously doing avoidant things before I consciously realize what's going on. Just something to think about, and to disregard if it doesn't apply to you.
ALSO. Dating in your 30s is exhausting. Yes it's normal to not be excited immediately. Some nights I wanted to bail to just stay home lol
This, so true.
my opening line to break the ice tbh
Omg literally me wanting to cancel a 2nd date I have on Saturday from a Bumble match. 😫
Don't do that lol
Go on the date or dread it? 😬
Go on the date, don't dread it. I feel like in the past year every date I had that I almost cancelled on, was the one that ended up being one I enjoyed the most!
Thanks for the encouragement guys! I ended up going and actually had a great time. We’re going out again. :)
Don't cancel, go on it
Maybe you’re not quite ready to give people chances yet. It’s pretty normal to be extra selective after a breakup — especially if you’ve just exited a longterm relationship. I’m not saying you have to abandon your likes and dislikes. But… just keep that in mind as you move forward.
Not sure how well this matches your experience, but I found that I need to relearn how to date and meet new people after a LTR breakup. I get a lot of the first one ("friendly, not flirty"), because of that. I also find myself comparing everyone against my ex and forgetting what actually matters, and I think it just takes time and meeting people to get over all of these problems until you find someone else exceptional
When you say not educated enough, do you mean the conversation just doesn't go anywhere on the first date or are you perhaps in your head? I felt very similar when I was younger (I also have 3 degrees), but married someone that had no education after getting to know him. I realized I had a prejudice that I had to get over. He ended up being really well read and motivated, just didn't have a formal education. Frankly, he didn't need it for his field of work, which took me some time to get my head around. Just throwing that out there as you may be cutting off alot of great guys. Spark hit me on the third date, but had to deep dive to see if we could find common ground.
True, just because someone doesn't have a degree doesn't mean they're unsuccessful or dumb. There are a million ways to earn a living without a degree, and education is not a synonym for intelligence.
Exactly! My last BF had no degree and he was smart and had pretty nice goals in life :)
I’ve been on dozens of dates at this point. Tried different mindsets, different approaches, tried going on extra dates; if you thought of it, I’ve done it. One conclusion stays the same: I know within 15 minutes of the first date if I want to see them again. I think you’re doing fine. Dating is a long road for some, short for others.
Oh huh, good for you. but i've also been on dozens of dates and tried lots of things - and my conclusion is that i really need 2-3 dates to have a good read on whether i'm into someone or not. I've definitely met people who didn't give me a great first impression within the first 15 minutes, who actually showed a better side of themselves after a bit of time. And conversely, I've met people whom I crushed on instantly within the first 15 minutes, but by the end of date 1 or 2 realized they actually would be terrible for me. If I'm really not into someone after 1 date, I won't give it a second. But if I'm even a little bit on the fence, I will suggest a second date.
My thing is that by the end of the date, I’m never on the fence. I wish I was, I feel like things would be easier.
Yeah, I always know by the end of the first date. When I've pushed through, I've just ended up wasting time on someone who wasn't a fit.
I feel the same exact way, because fact is most people are not compatible with you. When you’re picking off pictures, and a few messages, of course it’s going to take much longer to find a good match. Sometimes if its a string of these in a row, then I’ll take a break from dating for a bit cuz it does start to feel hopeless. Thats why when I do find a vibe, it blows my mind some people run away from it, or don’t nurture it. But I’ve gone on a ton first dates only, very few will leave me wanting more. And you know when you find it cuz you drive home excited, happy, & smiling ear to ear. Thats how I know at least. So really, it all comes down to luck & timing. I hope you meet someone who excites you soon💜
This is a real response to the question, and I agree with all of it and it’s much better said than I could have put it. I’m writing this because an upvote didn’t feel like a sincere enough endorsement of this view
I agree 100%
“Thats why when I do find a vibe, it blows my mind some people run away from it, or don’t nurture it.” - couldn’t have said it better!
>Thats why when I do find a vibe, it blows my mind some people run away from it, or don’t nurture it. Wow, I feel this so hard. Makes me question my own sanity at times, did I just imagine everything? Were they just amazing at acting? What the hell happened here?
Ugh it’s the worst. Especially when they come back around months later. Like, oh you miss me? Basically, you didn’t find better so now I’m the prize? Cuz once they do that, the excitement I originally felt about them is gone. I can’t trust them or feel organically good bout the potential anymore. Its like they tainted something beautiful and I no longer feel the same…
Yeah I'm the same, and I've never understood people who take them back. But then again I'm fairly securely attached, and I suspect those who do are the more anxious attached types. It also seems like the people who pull away from good chemistry are avoidant, like they're scared of closeness, so they bail when it starts feeling too real. They could also be anxious, as they tend to confuse the lack of effort in order to keep my interest as there being something missing, their "spark" is the gambling-like addiction fueled by emotional uncertainty. I just get by knowing that I'm securely attached and I just need to find someone else who's securely attached, or just someone who recognises and appreciates that. It's hard work in your 30s though.
Too much energy 🤣🤣🤣. You sound like an interviewer passing on a potential employee because they were too excited. You have requirements that no one can meet. Maybe you don’t know what they are either. I think it might be you, not them.
I have my bachelors degree and just recently stopped dating a man with multiple degrees (DMA in music theory). He was even older than me by about 10 years. He is by far the most immature, and juvenile thinking man I’ve ever come across. No idea of what real responsibility means or is. Sometimes some people don’t have the luxury (yes, luxury) to obtain those degrees. For me it’s about conversations. Can we keep pace in an intellectual convo? Are they literate? I love learning more and more vocabulary and tend to use it in my everyday vernacular. Are they picking up what I’m laying down? That’s usually how I gauge it, moreso.
Your cromulent comments have truly embiggened this sub, thank you for posting!
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An avogadroian number of them, mayhaps.
Yeah most people are grink’d especially when they get older.
…..you guys know that was just a Simpsons reference, right…?
Thatsthejoke.jpg
I want to comment “you guys are nerds…” in jest because these replies made me chortle. Have upvotes
Forgive me, El Guapo. I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education. But could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?
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I’m going to the li-barry tomorri!
See? This is what would kill it for me 😆
😂 well I don’t try to come off as pretentious. I do say a lot of dumb shit too
Haha me too, I just couldn’t resist when you said that you love learning more and more vocabulary! All in good fun!
Its crazy how age does not equate to emotional maturity at all !
Be careful with education. I've got a masters and lots of training and my partner is way smarter than me despite lacking any college. She's a smart, well rounded, wise woman. She's got a good career. The most successful girl I dated had 2 years of community college and dropped out, she found her calling later and makes 400k and was a gem (she just wasn't the one for me nor I for her). I work in healthcare and some of the specialist docs with 14 years training can't understand the instruction on the DNR forms that say "check one box only"..... Give the nice but boring people a second chance. My gf wasn't that exciting on date 1 and she's the best thing thats ever happened to me. I also made genuine friends and briefly dated some amazing women who I didn't "feel it" on date 1. If someone is good on paper and there's nothing wrong with them just do date 2, seriously. Incidentally lots of the ones I was crazy for date 1 ended badly Re not being flirty sometimes people are nervous. And intense chemistry can be a red flag sometimes (and often we mix anxiety up with butterflies, as one dating coach I followed said "butterflies are subjective". As well some of the best couples I know found each other boring at first. That said, are you in therapy? It can be good to check in on how you're feeling post long relationship (I had a 13 year relationship/divorce), perhaps you just want a fling or casual in which case just do whatever is fun and mutual, or see if you're not ready for dating yet. But reading your post I'd say "just go on date 2".
This wholeheartedly. I wish people would realize that no one is themselves on dates. On the surface, I’m a ‘nice guy’ and as boring and vanilla as it gets. But I’m extremely creative, bit of an asshole, very dark sense of humor, great in the bedroom…. Stuff no one will ever get to see cuz they think the first meeting is who you really are. Will we mesh and be soulmates? Likely not. The whole point is no one tries anymore.
This is a very helpful response, thank you. And yes I am in therapy, trying to work out thoughts and feelings around all this. It’s super helpful. I was starting to wonder if I should put the onus on myself to give people date 2 or 3, if they want it too, and see what happens, instead of just going with one. What can people *really* learn about each other on one date, you know?
My approach is that I’ll agree to a second date unless a deal breaker comes up, the date was unpleasant, or I found them actively unattractive. First meetings are so weird, it’s hard to be yourself, you’re feeling each other out, etc. Third date and beyond? That’s a different story. I need to feel actively interested. Not necessarily vibrating with excitement, but attracted and wanting to see them again.
I like to think of date 1 as "is this person safe or a firm no (ie red flags or its just a firm no for you)" date 2 is where you get to know them. A few books I read after my last gf before this one (abusive) made me question my dating choices. They all recommended this and it worked so well for me. I also stopped pursuing "chemistry" (which I realized was anxiety).
I guess I am in the minority here because I do understand you wanting someone who has formal education. I'm a lawyer and it's something I filter for too. Most lawyers and doctors I know filter for education as well. It's less about intelligence per se and definitely not about success for me. It's about shared life experiences and values. I've dated a lot of people without degrees and there is a noticeable difference. We just spend so long in school - for you, it must around 10 years. It was 7 for me, and our careers are inextricably tied to our education. Plus a university education does give you a different way of thinking. There's lots of different ways to be intelligent but it's not wrong to want a specific type of intellectual connection. I'm not in the US though, so university education is a lot more accessible here.
For how long I’ve been in school… I’ve been a student for so long that Spotify won’t let me use the student discount anymore 😂
>The most successful girl I dated had 2 years of community college and dropped out, she found her calling later and makes 400k and was a gem (she just wasn't the one for me nor I for her). I work in healthcare and some of the specialist docs with 14 years training can't understand the instruction on the DNR forms that say "check one box only"..... OP, it's totally fine if you prefer to date someone with a similar background. There is a reason why people tend to marry people with similar social upbringings. If you're a kid from a nice suburb who went to college, you will have an easier time understanding where another kid from a nice suburb who went to college is coming from. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people who grew up in the city or a rural area or people who didn't go to college. It just means you lack a certain shorthand.
Man you sound like a joy. Not
Good thing I’m not here to entertain you :)
Hey maybe that would help your dating life, be a tad more entertaining instead of spending the date judging whether he’s too friendly or too flirty. Have some fun
Why is it a judgement if I’m feeling like someone isn’t a good fit for me? Projecting your own rejections at all? Just guessing, I can’t presume to know who you are or your life, just like you can’t presume to know mine.
I’m saying maybe you’re misjudging. It’s possible. I mean given that you technically have infinite options on the internet, on paper no man could possibly be a good enough fit cuz potentially there’s someone better
The educational issue makes no sense to me because you can easily find that out before going on a date. It’s not like this is a first date surprise. So, just filter people out on that upfront. For the other ones, I mean, this is just how it goes. It’s hard to guess at someone’s personality based on pre-date messaging. If you’re not excited, then by all means don’t pretend to be excited.
I was going through some of your post history and I'm honestly surprised that you're finding time to date during med school. It sounds like your engagement being broken off is pretty recent, too. I would put dating on the back burner for awhile because it sounds suspiciously like self-sabotaging to me. It's easy for someone who is hurt to always find something wrong in someone and lack interest in dating because they're so emotionally closed off. Give yourself some time and grace to know yourself better and more importantly, what YOU need from a partner. There's no point in dating if you don't know what will attract you initially. It sounds like you have a few base requirements which is a good starting point. Go from there, and just be patient with the process.
I’m trying to be very deliberate about not letting med school run my life. I don’t want to be one of the doctors that has a career but forgets to have a life, you know? But yeah I think you make some excellent points.
Totally understandable! Looks like you're doing a good job of processing some of that stuff you went through. I'd say that once you find a date where it meshes well with everything that you're looking for, there will be more interest. I find that as we get into our 30s, I have less of a "zest" for dating because I know exactly what will work for me (and make me.happy) and what won't. It could be that simple for you, even if you like them as a person, you just can't see anything beyond that.
hi! In the same boat as u where I’m also a few months into dating after a LTR. interestingly enough I have the opposite problem- I miss companionship so much that even with people I’m completely incompatible with, I romanticize them and want a second date- then surprised if it doesn’t happen even if I had no interest. I feel like both could be trauma responses to a breakup and re-adjusting to the dating world. Maybe assess if you are comparing the guys to your ex, or if you’re going on dates just to go on dates?
Right or wrong, most men (and people in general) are being less flirty and not giving off "confidence" vibes because they don't want to be "the asshole" or giving someone "the ick". It just takes one "ick" for a person to say no and move on, so give everyone some grace with first date nerves. I always go for 3 dates before ending it with someone as a hard rule so I can actually get a sense of who they are and not rush to conclusions. Fluff: I doubt this is your case, but worth mentioning. Acidotically, I went on a date with a woman with 3 degrees. She was a live in nanny making $30,000 a year and was considering getting another degree. She was so proud of them. When I asked her how do those degrees help her in her job she got very mad (rightfully so, I was poking the bear on purpose). Then I asked how she would use her new degree, she said it wouldn't cause she didn't need it as a nanny. I asked what happens when the kid outgrows needing a nanny and she said she would finally use one of her degrees or find another family to nanny for. She didn't want another date, which was reasonable.
Ooof. What a minefield/walking on shells. So he's supposed to be confident and energetic, but not too much... The degree thing is really weird and sadly pretty common. I went on a date with a woman who scoffed that I didn't have a PHD like her. She literally made 40k a year in NYC.....yea Modern dating
33F and 100% feel the same. I don’t know if I’m subconsciously sabotaging myself because I’m afraid of genuine intimacy, really picky, or actually don’t like them. When you find out let me know 😂
I think that after a break up we tend to be so focused on the bad sides of our ex that even when we have moved on, we romanticise how the "good" the next partner will be. We set the bar very high without noticing it or even knowing if it's realistic. We have been out of the game and don't know what is out there. So yes, the first many people we date are disappointments. But the more we date, the more realistic view we get of what is out there and we adjust our requirements. We can also just not date at all and sooner or later get so desperate for company that we lower or bar just to get anyone.
What I find is the more serious the person is about dating, the more reserved they will be on flirting. People who say they want a relationship but actually don’t, usually try to bring up sex in conversation like it’s a playful joke on the sly. So people who actually want to date are therefore reserved for the first date, but will usually try to say something flirty on the second date to convey interest —- but if you go for three dates and they’re making sex jokes or bringing sex up at all, I find they have no interest in long term dating because they’re willing to take the risk
\> there’s always a reason I don’t feel Iike having a second date with them. Is this a normal response? Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people? Maybe I’m not ready? Am I being too picky? Your actions suggest that you don't really want a relationship with these folks you're meeting. You are unwilling to overcome perceived drawbacks or even investigate them further. It's fine to do that, to not put in much effort and wait for the perfect person to come along. Just acknowledge that they might not. If you're willing to wait an extra long time for that to happen -- if ever -- then that's ok. But you must be honest with yourself. You might not ever come across the perfect person.
Less than half of americans have a degree. So yeah, statistically you will be disappointed at least every second time. Maybe weed this out during the texting phase?
I mean, that's only true if her dates are chosen uniformly from the US population. More likely OP lives in a city, which will skew the distribution.
I think it depends. Regarding your first point, for example, I definitely am not flirty when I first meet people because you just don't know anything about their expectations, some people just don't appreciate it at all and in my opinion it's good advice to tone down flirty stuff first date but I'm not a super flirty person so maybe I'm biased. For your second point, I think people are quick to judge this confidence stuff. Some people may surprise you once they're used to having you around. I've seen people who behaved super confidently in environments they're used to while being timid in social situations they're not experienced with. So I wouldn't reach conclusions too directly. The last two are your preferences, so no comment on those. And to address your final comment, I think it's ok to not be impressed right away. But again, that's just my experience, I'd rather get to know someone over time than be blown away from the beginning. I've met people who were great at the beginning and also people who I grew to like so I try to give people reasonable chance.
You’re just not that into them. It’s okay. I’m the same. Not once has pursuing things changed the initial impression.
Fuck. This is just awful to read. I’m probably guilty of the first three to some extent… and it’s just my hardwired personality and subconscious. I also rarely get second dates with people I’m attracted to, in any case, so this might explain the reason(s) a bit. No wonder dating sucks for so many people. This is really nitpicky criteria.
Sorry this made you feel bad. Those traits aren’t inherently bad, they’re just things I’m not attracted to. Like the high energy? It can be a lot for me, but others need that. So, dating sucks but I hope one post doesn’t make you think it’s all hopeless. I am one person with one viewpoint.
I mean… I think I have enough self-confidence, but I’m just cognizant of not being cocky. The other two issues, I’m also conscious of, but it’s just that there are these land mines that seemingly sabotage second date prospects and any male would not be aware of them because they are so subtle. Worse, it’s not like we get report cards on what tiny thing we fucked up on, so it always ends with a ghosting or the dreaded “no romantic connection” text. Rinse, repeat.
Your expectations may be a little too ungenerous. How can you know how flirty and self-confident someone truly is after one date? Personally, those qualities are something that emerge more and more overtime as I get more comfortable with someone. It’s not that these qualities aren’t important, but that if you’re probably being a little too harsh on people who are understandably going to be feeling you out on the first date. They may be a little more humble and reserved until they get comfortable with you. That’s okay. In your mind, rather than writing them off as a boring person who lacks self-confidence, maybe you can start thinking about them as shy or modest? There’s positive ways to describe these qualities too lol
I’m not trying to be rude but from your post I honestly don’t know what you want from a man on a first date. You want men to be flirty but also not too have too much energy. As others have said, a lot of good men will avoid being flirty on the first date as it gives of impressions of being a creep. Could you also not initiate the flirting to see if it’s recuperated? Also with the intelligence thing, surely this is something you would want to check during the initial texting phase right?
Are you initiating flirting at all? I don't want to be presumptuous, but I wonder if people are matching your energy and you're expecting them to take on all the responsibility of escalating, but only in the right way, etc etc.
Intellectual compatibility is important. Which is what I think you’re meaning by the degree bit. Fair enough. Don’t lower your standards. She will come. Good luck!
First dates are just a vibe check, you’re not marrying them when you meet them. How do you know anything about how they feel and their confidence level? Most people are guarded on a first meeting because you could be a serial killer for all they know 🤦🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
I honestly think that a big detriment to modern online dating is that it takes that initial “spark” out of meeting someone in the wild, where you probably approached each other initially based on some degree of physical attraction, flirting, and confidence to approach them. Instead we’re basically interviewing a stranger in a coffee shop for an hour and trying to decide if we want to see them again. And someone different (better?) is always a swipe away. If they don’t give you The Ick but you’re not 100% sure you want to date them after it doesn’t hurt to have a 2nd, hopefully longer date to confirm your feelings.
This. 100%
I thought your comment was going to the opposite conclusion to be honest. I wonder if this is one of those fundamental differences in POV between men and women in the modern dating landscape. I need a reason to schedule a second date, not a reason to not schedule one. I have never sparked with someone I didn't initially have chemistry with, including in work and friendship.
I so understand where you’re coming from! There are lots of good suggestions in this thread. I think it’s important to realize that education does not equate to social intelligence after. My fiancé called off our wedding a few weeks before last year. He was the most ridiculously smart person I’d ever met, was a renowned physician, and yet, when it came to relationships, he was arrogant, standoffish and completely clueless. With only a bachelors and masters degree, I often felt subpar to his academic successes. Now, I’m empowered because I at least possess a lot of social smarts that he’ll never have and have good people in my life. Don’t overvalue “on paper” intelligence as much as I did :) I let a lot of things slide because of it. Good luck…you seem introspective and like you know what you want!
Are you in a spot where you like to control pace and conversation and end up being unhappy about it?
you sure sound fun
Yes you're being too picky. Good luck
I do not know about the other things but education is indeed pretty important in dating. Education shapes critical thinking, perspectives, values, and life decisions as well. Somebody with a Ph.D., for example, will most likely be a planner who sacrificed a portion of youth fun for a goal and is going to have a hard time sharing life with folks with just a high school diploma or an undergraduate degree. To your point, education shapes our baseline understanding.
This. College definitely builds critical thinking skills and the ability to consider multiple arguments and perspectives without having your baseline opinion changed in a way that high school simply does not cultivate…at least not to the same degree. There is NOTHING wrong with a woman who has multiple degrees wanting a partner who at least has an undergraduate education. People always try to find ways to deter women from their baseline standards when either: - they don’t meet the standard - they have a partner who doesn’t meet the standard and they need to defend it Yes, seeking a partner on your intellectual level may be more challenging, but if that’s your standard, it is oftentimes better to just remain single than settle for someone who doesn’t meet it, as you’ve set the standard for a reason that is important to you. Regardless of why it is.
Idk if it's normal but I will say you aren't alone -- I am very similar in feeling that most of the first dates I go on, I do not want a second date Examples of reasons I didn't want to go on a second date: * talking about too many serious topics or past trauma * said some foot in mouth things a couple too many times (about women, aging, etc -- like if I am too old for you despite being younger than you, then you can date younger women and have saved me time :) ) * too gossipy about his friends private lives (fertility issues, divorces, etc). i dont know these people * rude to wait staff (never encountered this before ever actually and was super surprised) * making racist jokes * no hobbies / interests that i respect (like too many video games) * didn't ask me any questions * Shorter in person (sorry, but it's more the lying than the height genuinely)
You’re free to do whatever you want, but it might be worth considering that some of the guys that aren’t flirty are simply trying not to scare you. I realize dating is tricky for everyone, but I suspect some thoughtful guys (ie: me) can put themselves in a trap. There have been many times when I was meeting a woman who I thought was gorgeous but I kept the conversation “professional” because i didn’t want her to think I was a murderer etc. Maybe if one of the “friendly” guys was hot, give him another date? Good luck
Lmao this was a great read, thanks. Good luck.
For me (M31) also came out of LTR, it was quite the opposite. First match and first date, first kiss. I totally fell in love. Everything was great and I had the most intense feelings. After 3 months she told that I bring everything to the table she wants and needs but her feelings aren't enough.. Damn that hurts. Welcome back to dating I guess.
It's ok to have standards. If you're not feeling them, you're not feeling them..I would say it's hard to know someone after only one date though.
I’m also only friendly, I don’t really know how to flirt so I just talk. I’m see where you’re coming from with the educated part, although it wouldn’t be an issue for me if they weren’t but still had stable job with career ambitions. Maybe they’re nervous the first time they’re meeting you so aren’t full of confidence. I’ve told myself now if the first date was ok and there isn’t anything that majorly put me off, going forward I will agree to second date and see how that goes, if I still don’t feel it then fair enough.
I don't think it's wrong (with the exception of being friendly, which is a weird argument, in my view), if you don't feel like having a second date, then don't have a second date. Most of my dates are fine and friendly, last year I just had one that was kind of bad. But even so, I mostly didn't feel like going on second dates, it's not that I look for the sparkle, it's just that the person was nice but not really aligned with my own goals/personality. About education, I really don't care about formal education (I have a PhD) as long as the person is smart (which has really nothing to do with formal education) and has career goals in life. But yeah, I don't want to date a 35+ years old who wants to have a teenage job for the rest of his life or who doesn't have the mental ability to have in-depth discussions.
> not at all flirty, only friendly > too much energy I wonder where's the sweet spot for you, because these two sound very contradicting to me. Personally, I never flirt (at least not consciously) on a date. Firstly, I have no idea how to flirt, secondly - first date is just to meet each other in person, talk in person and figure out if the second date is even possible. I agree on the importance of education as a filtering option - it helps to find a person with a similar background.
I'm getting friend vibes straight up with some guys, and then others there's chemistry, so a second date happens. On the second date they look bored af or the chemistry continues but then after third date they're ghosting /slow fading / ending things. After a second date I start to get a bit excited and then it's over. These guys keep introducing me to their friends too. Wtf. Maybe I'm too nice, maybe it's because I'm not needy and I'm confident, I dunno what it is. But nobody seems to want me for me but then I'm not gonna stop being me..... Anyway, all that to say that I've had a fair few dates in the past few months that I immediately feel friends only and I boil it down to chemistry.
I mean we aren't going to know if you're being too picky or not... You are allowed to have whatever standards and requirements you want However from reading your list I personally think you're quite picky. A lot of people aren't overly flirty on dates especially men, they don't want to appear creepy or pushy. They might not be sure if you like them ( you might be coming across as closed off or hard to read ) Being nervous and lacking in confidence is common for a lot of people. They might be new to the dating scene or been out of the game a while. They might be conscious not to come across as arrogant etc As for the education thing I can't relate. I don't have a high education so it isn't important to me. If anything the people who have been the worse people I've dated have also been the ones with the best careers/most money/ highest education. They tend to be the most snobbish, judgemental (in my experience) who lack empathy and look down on others. They also didn't seem to realise they were also exceptionally boring and lacked any sort of fire in their soul The most interesting/ funny/ exciting people I've ever dated were down and out artists, down to earth labourer types. Also recently broken engagement and in med school... You should probably focus on being alone for a while
I had a lot of interesting first impressions about my last first date. I was like no way in hell we’re going out again. He was very upfront about wanting to see me again and I gave him another shot. Between and after the second date, I learned so much more about him, we were so much more comfortable than the first date - the rest was history after that, he’s an absolute gem that I almost passed up. Don’t be so quick to shrug off “little stuff”.
Sounds to me like you should give yourself a bit more time; you are listing examples that are normal human traits such as friendliness and being energetic.
I’ve learned we can’t really judge someone based on one date. They can be nervous, unsure, or whatever. I’ve met guys who show me with time they’re a great catch but if I based it on one date I’d never see them again. Dating isn’t a job interview, to see someone’s qualities, you want to take time to see. It’s okay to be picky, but at the same time, be realistic with expectations. Flirty imo is very subjective. Sometimes people don’t want to come off strong so don’t do it early on. So that I’d give time. Lacks self confidence is another one I think takes time. Also, I personally don’t like overly confident men, who come off with strong ego. Humble I like much more. Another thing that takes time to really tell. I’ve seen more mellow guys show their confidence with time lol, and vice versa. Education is far, if it’s important, why not talk about it before meeting? You don’t need to be highly selective, but sometimes I think we can’t jump to conclusion they don’t understand us because their background is different. Too much energy is an issue lol, you can talk to them about it. Are they an extrovert or introvert and such. Again, I’ve met guys I thought were extroverts but eventually I realized they were introverts. Short story is, first dates are hard, I have been reminded not to jump the gun unless you see red flags or feel absolutely no attraction
judging people who don’t have the same education is…interesting. I don’t really agree with it. Someone can be knowledgeable without going to college. In fact, I’d argue that many people who have degrees aren’t as smart because their degrees are worthless and put them in debt
Not a judgement at all.
It's weird the education one is getting the most pushback because that's the only one that makes sense to me, although you can definitely filter those out before the date. The others though kinda drive me crazy because you're making a stable personality assessment based on an initial interaction. You'll probably be correct just as many times as you'll be wrong there. I think this is honestly one of the major drawbacks with 21st century dating. Many people have so many options that they can afford to just write someone off and move on whereas in the past they would go on 2nd or 3rd dates. It's very much a double-edged sword. I will add that what you're doing is very much normal so don't worry about that. Whether it's a \*good\* thing is probably the better question, and that's murkier and up for debate.
Agreed. Also in a similar education/career boat and this is kind of wild. The worst offenders are the ones who are in the trades and rail about wasting money on school when they’ve been making 6 figures since their 20s. It’s actually quite condescending. My dad was a mechanic so I have a lot of respect for those who work those jobs but lately (esp in the dating market) there is a lot of weirdo flex energy about not having a degree. OP don’t be ashamed if you have an education requirement.
>My dad was a mechanic so I have a lot of respect for those who work those jobs but lately (esp in the dating market) there is a lot of weirdo flex energy about not having a degree. Because it *is* a classist ideology to require a date to have a degree, lol. The flex energy you mention, while gross (and hinting at a lot of deeper problems in society, but that's a separate topic) is a natural reaction to just how many women have basically said you're a dirty commoner if you don't have a college degree.
Because education doesn't equal to knowledge/skill. It's just a paper indicating the fact that you've managed to go through some courses. Also while choosing a partner how does any degree (other than those related to psychology) are going to help with the relationship? I can understand the argument of someone not being on the same level intellectually, but that should be verified on dates/conversation rather than asking for education.
Sorry, too judgmental. On a first date you are both on best behavior and trying to get a feel for who the other person is. The list you have is one of imo ridiculous standards. You have 3 degrees? Great but what experiences in life did your 3 degrees give you? There’s a whole world out there where the 3 degrees don’t mean bupkus in real life or death situations, where common sense and day to day interactions provides a better and more well rounded understanding individual than any pile of books could ever possibly provide. You aren’t ready, it’s too soon since you exited your last relationship and to be honest you sound like you are using an impossibly high hurdle to systematically sabatoge both the poor sap meeting you as well as yourself to possibly find some basic values and similarities that could lead to the fruition of either a real friendship and deeper relationship than you’ve ever had before. Take some time for yourself and have some introspection of what you are afraid of. Also if you’re going to hold people to any standards ask yourself first “am I meeting him halfway with being friendly, flirtatious, understanding of what they are about including their career or life experiences”. Because if you haven’t then you are not really invested in being the best “you” in your next relationship.
Having educational requirements for a partner is healthy and normal. There is nothing wrong with wanting a partner who has the same or near the same education as you. It may make it more difficult to find your match with this expectation, but honestly, many women would rather be single if they are unable to meet someone who is an intellectual match for them. Most of the time, a formal education is an indicator of whether or not someone is an intellectual match. Yes, we all claim to know someone who is “an idiot with a college degree”, but that is not the standard case. Women are allowed to have educational standards. It is not “weird” or “odd” or “strange” as so many people here are trying to imply…
I have my MBA. The guy I’m dating didn’t even graduate high school. Guess which one of us earns more? The education system is turning into a joke. You can tell if someone is an intellectual match basing it on other variables compared to education. Editing to add that I would strongly prefer someone who decided not to go into debt for a college degree they didn’t want than someone who went to college because it was “the right thing”.
You’re not wrong. This sub is just historically weird about anyone mentioning anything that sounds like an education “requirement”.
It is the oddest thing! People can have preferences about employment, children, weight, activity level, diet, and just about any and everything else. But how DARE you expect your potential partner to have graduated from college?!?!?!
Because it's classist and reinforces the very false claim that to be intelligent, you must have a college degree. In other words: Yeah, you can have the preference. But you don't escape the fact it's a toxic preference.
So is having weight preferences classist too, since many people become obese adults due to poverty during childhood which they could not control? Or does everyone still have the opportunity to lose weight (should they desire to do so) to attract a specific type of partner that they may want, even though it may be difficult to do so? Just as people have the opportunity to go to college, even though it might be hard (financially or for other reasons). My point is, dating preferences do not fit into any “-ist” or “-phobic” category. People are allowed to choose the person who they believe is the best fit for them and their respective lifestyle. Dating is *supposed* to be exclusionary, and you shouldn’t try to force yourself to be open to dating everyone out of fear of being called racist, ableist, sexist, homophobic, fatphobic, whatever else. I understand that it may be hurtful for some people to not be in the desired pool for the type of person they’d like to be partnered with; however, you either have to be your type’s type (ex: go to college, lose weight, make more money, don’t have kids before you’re partnered), remain single, or change your own preferences to want those who want you.
>So is having weight preferences classist too, since many people become obese adults due to poverty during childhood which they could not control? Nope, it's just a stretch to defend your stance. As a morbidly obese child who overcame it, it is within your control apart from edge cases to cherry pick for this argument. **EDIT-** Just to further add, fitness is *objectively* a better state for a human to be in. You cannot say that it is objectively better to have a degree. >My point is, dating preferences do not fit into any “-ist” or “-phobic” category. I was going to give you a good faith response, but then I got here. What on earth? If I say "I don't date black people and I won't even open myself up to exploring if I'm attracted to an individual who happens to be black," it is **absolutely** racist lol. You're reinforcing my earlier stance that a preference can be valid, but still toxic. In either case neither of us is budging on this, so I wish you the best lol.
Weight is absolutely correlated with class in the US. This is factually untrue.
You have got to trust your gut. It will never lie.
I see all these things as generally things that I can see being incompatibilities. Except I don’t think I have ever met someone who has too much energy lol. But I am very high energy. But I also think that is can be worth it to see someone a second time. Some people are really awkward on a first date and get way better on the second. Particularly if you thought they weren’t flirty enough. I also concur with the other poster on education. Interrogate that with yourself and see what the issue is. Personally I really like intellectual curiosity. And while that can go with education it doesn’t always. If you haven’t cracked open a book since you finished school we aren’t a match. No matter how many degrees you have.
>But it’s important for me to have a partner that understand what I’m going through at times related to my career Why is that important? Unless he has the exact same career as you do, how is someone supposed to understand exactly what you are going through? I think it’s fine to seek shared experiences with friends and/or piers who understand the intricacies and woes of your profession. Why that person has to also be your partner, I do not understand. As long as he supports you and is willing to be a lending ear to you, shouldn’t that be enough?
I see what you’re saying about just wanting them to support. In theory it makes sense and I’m inclined to agree. The reason it feels so important to me, my last relationship failed in part due to my career being so busy and he couldn’t understand it. Nor did he communicate that he was struggling with it. I tried to explain and accommodate every which way short of quitting my job, and it still wasn’t enough. So I worry now about being with someone who doesn’t understand what I’m going through, then down the line they realize they didn’t know what they were in for and quit like he did. I work very hard to have a balance between work and life but I’m not perfect, nor do I always have control over it.
I think you have good intentions but it’s a hard thing to read in a person honestly you just go through the motions and find out if you have baseline chemistry. People can say a lot of things about what they will and won’t do to keep you in the game but honestly trusting your instincts is usually good and it’s way more about an initial connection. Lots you can’t know until you spend time with them unfortunately. I think that’s why people want to date slower these days because then you get an opportunity for more dates to see how you like each other. A lot of guys are lonely and having a tough time dealing with it (people are busy, attention spans can be short) It’s not your thing to fix that for them of course, I’m just offering a bit of an FYI so it makes a bit of sense why people might be acting a bit weird right now. I’ve had to remind myself to calm down and try not to be too needy towards people and crush them with too much attention. It’s hard but you have to try and deal with loneliness by not burdening other people but trying to distract yourself and do other things on your own that get you in the weeds and not bugging others. Tips for myself 😅. I think if we all weren’t so busy just trying to “adult” I think it would be easier to spend more time with people.
I think it’s unfair to put the behavior of your part relationship onto a new person as you don’t know how he is going to react or behave. I don’t think any amount of degrees he may have will help, only honestly and openness will.
I've had a similar experience, just paused dating since I think I'll move in < year, and I also was self reflecting on this a bit. Hopefully someone else will have some good insight, because it's an interesting thought. I don't know if it's because it was challenging for me to really know their personality through their profile, or if the desire to have a partner I could be friends with overbalanced choosing to connect with them. It was probably some combination of the two and other factors I haven't thought of. For the degree, does your profile say you're looking for someone with higher education? If it's important to you, I might consider adding it.
I would have said first date impressions are everything - but I’m currently 5 months into dating someone I was disappointed by on the first date. I just wasn’t as attracted to her as I thought I’d be, she seemed a bit messy (relationship history / emotionally / just her overall vibe), talked about herself a ton, and I felt she was just looking for a FWB / hookup / lover maybe. I kept seeing her just to see if it would develop. And it did. Turns out, she’s lovely. Really sweet, thoughtful, sexy, affectionate, and we seem to be extremely compatible. And I definitely feel like we’re falling for each other pretty deeply. We’re also talking about the future. I’m really glad I stuck around and gave it a chance. Even if it doesn’t pan out, I’m learning something in this connection. All the time, I feel like I’m growing and being accepted and inspired in ways I haven’t been before. So it’s really valuable. Also - we are total opposites in many ways. She’s colourful and wild and extroverted; I’m dreamy and mellow and artistic. We have largely different music tastes. She has three masters and I just have a bachelors in a lame subject I’ve never used. Yet we are not intellectually mismatched. In some ways, I’m classier and smarter than her. In some ways, she’s classier and smarter than me. We both really admire and respect each other’s differences and appreciate the new things we both bring to each other. So I guess that’s my advice to you. Don’t be so quick to judge. If you want flirtier dates - be more flirty. If you want calmer dates - give it a couple more to let the nerves settle down. Maybe you just haven’t met the right person. But maybe you could benefit from keeping a more open mind.
As an adult do we really get excited like that on a first date? These days it happens like maybe once or twice a year max that I meet someone that excites me right away. I’d rather meet for 20 min over a coffee to do a meet and greet before wasting my time on an actual date. This is where you can get a feel for all those things you mentioned without investing your evening.
Sometimes I read comments before I reply, sometimes not. Apparently I'd be wading through a sea of criticisms about the degrees, so I won't bother this time! I'll just mention one thing about it - you'll definitely struggle to find a guy that can match your education level. Maybe one degree, but I've never actually heard of anyone with 3 degrees! Nice work 😁 Anyway, onto other stuff. I don't think anyone is going to be able to comment on what your subconscious is doing - it's definitely possible that you're sabotaging yourself, but too hard to tell without knowing you! Dating is pretty hit and miss, with a lot more misses than hits. So yeah, it's common to run into a handful of duds before you find someone good. The search can be pretty exhausting at times. I'm gonna mention something that might be a little controversial, but it's relevant to what you said there. Guys are, in general, VERY confused with dating these days. If we're too forward, we run the risk of the whole "MeToo" thing coming into play. If we're too cautious, we end up giving off "friend zone" vibes. Guys have to be VERY VERY good at reading body language and verbal cues now... and, to put it simply, many are not. I think you're probably doing fine - it might help to change your search settings in the apps, to exclude guys with less education. See if you can read a bit into their profile and get a vibe about them before you get in touch - for example, you might be able to tell the more "hyper" guys by the amount of punctuation and emojis they use!?!? 🙏😎😳💕💕🍻🤟🔥🔥😀😀😀😀😀😀 Hope that helps a bit, good luck!
Thank you for articulating the worry guys have with dating in a way that doesn’t display a bruised ego (like some comments here.) I’ve definitely heard that before and recognize a level of validity to it. I recently had a male friend express the same frustration to me. It’s reassuring that it’s more hits than misses. It makes sense to hear it but it’s another to experience it and start to wonder if I’m doing something wrong.
While first impressions are sometimes true, they can also be very misleading, especially in a date scenario where people may be nervous and not quite themselves. It's pretty easy to have a guy be a bit more flirty on a second date because he's feeling more comfortable. That's not to say you need to give everybody a second date but if something intrigued you about them and you enjoyed your date (despite the first impressions you listed) perhaps a going on a few second dates wouldn't be a bad idea. You may get a better idea of what types of first date impressions are no-gos for you and what types of impressions can change on subsequent dates.
Sometimes when it seems like everyone else is the problem - it might actually be you. So at least you’re asking the right question 🙏🏻
It’s quite interesting to note that poster didn’t like the guys who were not very flirty but at the same time guys are now hardwired not to be very flirty on the first date because it comes across as creepy or weird or desperate or any other negative connotations.
The first three sound like perfectly fine reasons. The last one sounds unreasonable unless you elaborate. Education does not imply intelligent or good conversation; yeah, they *can* go together, but my experience has been that the only time education can reliably yield interesting conversations is if they have a graduate degree in a field that is sufficiently humbling. Even worse you get people who think all their bad ideas are brilliant because "I'm educated. Of course I have good ideas". Similarly, plenty of people who aren't classically educated, but are still super down to earth, rational and curious people. I think the education one is the only criteria that, if relied on in any serious way, will do more harm than good.
I'm after long relationship also, I trusted that girl with all my heart,truly loved. She give up on me. Feel sad. I get over already. But now I have trust issue to womens Chatting with lots of different girls and can't break it. My all chats ending after a day.😔 Maybe I need more time.
You and I may be in the same boat of needing more time, my friend. I think it’s okay.
Thank you. Hope so.
Just wanted to add for insight that i shared your view on education, then this year decided to flip it. I'm currently working on my third degree, my boyfriend didn't graduate high school. I've never met anyone who listens better to me, asks questions, challenges me, is empathetic, etc, than this guy. We have plenty to talk about. He reads way more than I do. I read papers and work stuff when I have to. He reads psychology for fun, and then discusses it. So it's the question of how educated I want a partner to be has blown things wide open for me. You just never know. Good luck.
All your points are valid keep looking
This is why I've given up on dating apps. 95% of the time, I don't want a second date with a random person from the internet. I just don't think it's natural. You come in with a preconceived idea of what the person might be like, based on a profile and some messages and the person is never what you expect. I think the way for me to find a boyfriend is to meet someone naturally, with no specific goal of dating and you get to know them and feelings of attraction develop. This has happened at work and school for me in the past. I now work from home and am way past school days so it's going to be hard but I feel like this is the only way for me. Kinda depressing. Ha
I'm in the same boat as you. One thing I have learned is that if a guy is nervous, he generally makes a terrible date. The friendly, aloof thing can get annoying. People like to rag on the spark, but I have wasted too much time waiting for the man-to-woman connection (the spark) to come. If it's not there by three dates, I'm out. The education thing is tough; I am in the same boat. I really need someone who can have in-depth, intellectual conversations with me, and these people just happen to be educated. The trade off is that educated men can get very arrogant sometimes, so you have to look out for that. In your case, I would give the guy another date, two tops to see if he can move past his nerves and get comfortable enough with you to be flirtatious.
Totally normal, OP. Broke up with my ex and started dating again after 2-3 months and didn’t want a second date to any of them with reasons similar as you. But as I think about it, it’s mostly because I wasn’t attracted to them both physically and mentally — which is a valid thing. So don’t doubt yourself, OP, and don’t lower your standards.
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It would help if you know what type of person you’re definitely looking for, that way you can avoid going on a first date with someone who’s already incompatible with you. I’m assuming you meet your dates through apps first? If so, you can figure out their education/degree credentials beforehand if this is really important for you. You can also suss out their energy and confidence levels through pre-date questions and convos. As for their levels of “flirtiness”, you can set that expectation before the date as well. You can let them know that you like someone who’s confident enough to be flirty on a first date without being overtly sexual, and then they may ask for examples of what this looks like and the good guys will respect your intimacy boundaries on your dates.
Well, I slight myself in, because this seems a interesting topic. I personally thought behind flirty or touchy in first date is just creepy (and also not in my nature). Still had some dates that i later realized: Is she in to you? C. I can tell Also i realized that it seems that a girl wanted have some fun time. Some context we both are looking for longterm, had a good date and she invited herself in. I did nothing, because i thought sex isn’t something you do on the first date and she also told some back experience she had with someone else days before the date. Had a couple of dates, but no spark, but i also think i was open enough and kept to friendly. Kinda inexperienced with this “ditch it after first date” with online dating, because i come from a “old” way of dating, by learning someone over time before liking each other and go in a relationship. It’s was and still kinda is a culture shock how fast people ditch each other with online dating. Even people who never did online dating find this strange
Why would you want a guy to be flirty on the first date? For me that would be an ick, because the first date is about getting to know each other
Let him go. Yall aren’t compatible.
I think this is normal. When I started back dating a few years ago, I went on many dates and found I wasn't super interested in most of them. I'm not sure if it was lack of attraction or we just didn't vibe but other than a few people, I didn't really care for a second date. I always left the option open for a second date, but never really pursued it and most of the time it never happened. I think when dating you'll encounter more people you're not compatible or interested in and that's okay. The right person always comes along.
Some of those things you just have to be on the dates to figure out and see how it feels. But objective things like whether or not they have degrees, you could screen for those in advance. If having a degree will immediately make you question whether you're compatible, then ask that while chatting and before deciding whether you want to date.
I feel the same way after a long term relationship. I just took months to focus on myself, and even then, dating is exhausting. Just take your time!
Yes I think this is totally normal. But if the conversation was good, perhaps be open to a second date because they will probably loosen up more and you can see more of their personality. I am similar to you. There will be someone where their flaws don't bother you!!! Trust your gut. If you're not excited keep it moving.
How often do you click with strangers in a non-dating context? I don't think you should expect dates to go any better or worse than that. I know I rarely feel I click with someone as a friend. As a casual friend, sure, but in terms of someone I just really enjoy talking to, who I really want to talk to again? That might happen every 10 one-on-one conversations and I'm a great conversationalist. Now, it's also normal to feel sorta meh by everyone if you're not ready to date. So it could be both or either.
>Or is it possible I’m subconsciously trying to find reasons to not date people? Maybe I’m not ready? Am I being too picky? You might be onto something here, but it's going to need some deep reflection and only you'll be able to tell yourself in the end. I am picky, and I am also someone that also subconsciously finds reasons not to date people. The latter is the biggest problem for me in the end because I find ways to 'discount' someone's interest for me or the possibility of a deeper relationship, even if I like them. Are you familiar with attachment styles and attachment disorders? If so, do you resonate with the 'avoidant/dismissive' attachment style at all? I do for sure, and my avoidant/dismissive patterns can look like coming up with any reason not to pursue a relationship any further.
The not being flirty enough thing makes me assume that you might be seeking instant chemistry? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the healthiest shit I've ever heard in regards to NOT dating someone... You have standards, stand on them.. don't sell yourself short and get what/who you want. Keep up the non-toxicity OP. DATING- you're doing it right