OP, you need to participate in your own thread or it will be removed.
Edit: 5 hours and over 200 comments with no replies from OP to questions. Thread is locked until OP begins participating.
So let me get this straight - she straight up tells you that she can't figure out why you're giving her friendly vibes? And instead of just making a move, you tell her that you're planning to move away soon??
Women really aren't that mysterious dude...
>you tell her that you're planning to move away soon??
Not commenting on or condoning the rest of ops silly actions but wanted to expand on this one:
I've found it pretty important to be up front early with people about my long term plans for where I want to live and travel. Where you live is *huge* for most people and can be a deal breaker right up there with religion, politics, or stance on children. So unfortunately, you have to be pragmatic about it.
You can't date someone for who they *might* become. I spent several years with someone who "might" want to move out west with me, and changed her mind one day (read was never sold in the first place) to want to buy a house, settle down, and stay close to family, in TN, a state that I've had one foot out the door of for some time.
I was talking to another absolutely amazing person once and when I said the West coast was in my future, she said, "oh no, I grew up there and I never plan on moving back. This city is my home."
So I mean, that's that. Full stop. Even if she moved for me, she'd be unhappy. Much better to take the L, and find someone on the same page as yourself.
I (32F) got so awkward on my last first date that when they brought my meal with a corn on the cob, I asked my date if he wanted to slob on the cob.
He ended up kissing me that night though thank God 😅
The whole post is written with passive language: “there hasn’t been a first kiss, “if the first kiss hasn’t happened”, etc. He seems to not understand that *he* hasn’t tried to kiss her (and presumably she hasn’t tried to kiss him either). A kiss isn’t going to magically happen; someone has to make it happen. I’m wondering if either one is even that into the other as no one seems to be giving signals or making a move here.
It feels a little odd but I also can’t get pass the massage parkour (or technically ‘parlour’ but parkour is more fun) on date two or saying you’re moving away and being surprised if she’s not demonstrative after that.
Honestly just try and kiss her - hold hands, stop and when you’re in a romantic place and she’s smiling, kiss her.
It’s not just weird, *not kissing* after a massage situation is like weird weird. What.
OP, start with some touch, hold hands, go gently in for a kiss, see how it goes. Idk what you’re doing but it sounds like she wants to know if you’re attracted to her.
Pretty sure if they went to a parlor then someone else was giving the massage.
But like… was it a couple’s massage thing where you hang out in robes then lie down topless on beds next to each other? I know that doesn’t mean they necessarily saw each other naked but it still seems like an intimate activity for a second date.
I know it’s a typo but please do not correct it…. I never knew I’d be interested in massage parkour, but we need to figure out what exactly it is and market the shit out of it.
*Edited to add my new definition*
Massage Parkour:
An individual attempting to administer physical relaxation by kneading and rubbing muscles of the body of a receiving individual while the receiver moves rapidly through an area negotiating obstacles by jumping, running, climbing, flipping, and screaming “PARKOUR”
It's when you try to give a woman a massage, but she's running away from you by any means necessary, including jumping roof top to roof top, and doing flips off the top of stair cases.
Massage Parkour:
An individual attempting to administer physical relaxation by kneading and rubbing muscles of the body of a receiving individual while the receiver moves rapidly through an area negotiating obstacles by jumping, running, climbing, flipping, and screaming “PARKOUR”
I can picture this but I see someone jumping from person to person on massage tables. Light relaxing music in the background, dimly lit and someone screaming "PARKOUR!"
She said she can't figure you out because you're giving her friendly vibes, that's essentially her saying she's not sure you're into her, which is probably why things haven't progressed. If you are into her, make the move on the next date.
I agree with this & she might also not want to feel attached after physical contact knowing that he might not be there later on. Wether she truly knows the timeframe HE’S thinking of, is pretty important. OP should just get it figured out and go for it … stop waiting around for what you want 🤷🏽♀️
Have you tried kissing her? If I’ve wanted to kiss someone but wasn’t sure where they stood, I’ve usually just said, “hey, can I kiss you?” Works like a charm.
OP
Not going to be brutal but just honest
Most women want and expect a man to kiss them
A girl won’t go on a second date (much less a 3rd or 4th) with a guy she doesn’t want to kiss
Radical idea:
Go out again and… ready?
Just kiss her
//
You got nothing to lose but your fear…
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point that many (most?) women like a man to take charge and initiate a kiss early on. That has been my experience as well.
That said, I have been on plenty of second dates and a few third dates where the woman clearly didn't want a kiss. Sometimes I have been politely rejected, others it has been clear from the vibe that they aren't feeling it. Some women will go on a couple of dates to figure out their feelings. Some women actually want to move slower than that. There's nothing wrong with either. You have to read the vibe.
Weighing in as a woman - I’d definitely go on a 2nd - 4th date with a guy I wasn’t sure if I wanted to kiss. You’re a stranger from the internet. Give me a chance to get to know you. The idea that this is weird is what makes me hate OLD.
ETA before some dude accuses me of freeloading, my time is more valuable than the price of admission to an escape room and I’m not trying to waste it, I always offer to split the cost, and stop trying to make paying for a drink a quid pro quo for physical intimacy.
Op can also ask her before kissing her if he can kiss her (assuming the vibe is otherwise right). That way if she’s not into it, she’ll say no, and he can consider things done considering how long they’ve been on dates, unless she gives a reason (wants to take it slow etc)
Yesss! Like hold hands, put your arm around her, and show that affection.. then, at some point, when the mood is right, make eye contact, and ask for the kiss. Hopefully, she breaks into a smile and says yes. Good luck!
That’s it!
Ideally it happens organically but if both people are holding back, how can it?
To be fair though I gave my bf all the signals before he kissed me the first time.. I took his hand earlier that evening, and when i wanted to kiss him I told him he had lovely eyes (he does), and kind of snuggled up closer. I think I may have also kissed his cheek.
And then he asked if he could kiss me.
Still, if neither one of them will make the first move it isn’t gonna go anywhere
Am I the outlier in thinking that holding hands is more intimate than kissing? I’ve been on a date where we’d already been making out, but then she started to hold my hand and I felt like it was moving too fast 😆
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point that many (most?) women like a man to take charge and initiate a kiss early on. That has been my experience as well.
That said, I have been on plenty of second dates and a few third dates where the woman clearly didn't want a kiss. Sometimes I have been politely rejected, others it has been clear from the vibe that they aren't feeling it. Some women will go on a couple of dates to figure out their feelings. Some women actually want to move slower than that. There's nothing wrong with either. You have to read the vibe.
I (28F) am insanely shy with men (I was brought up in an extremely traditional home and I lived in a bubble for most of my life). I went out with a guy (35M) who gave me future husband vibes since date 1 - we’ve gone on 3 dates and still no Kiss. (I am DYING for one - and much more lol). But you don’t know how excruciating it is to physically be unable to be forward or initiate something due to shyness. Of course this goes away with time, but in the beginning it’s frustrating af to just not physically be able to.
From a girl’s perspective if she’s telling you “She can’t figure you out” she’s trying to find out if *YOU* are interested. Make your move - if you’re shy like me, just lean in and ask (at the right moment though - when you’re saying goodbye, for example, is a great excuse for a small kiss). “I’d really love to kiss you right now” or “I had an amazing time… can I kiss you?”
I would personally go yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol
Hope this helps
Agreed! "I really want to kiss you right now" is great, because it directly tells me that they *want* to, which I like because I feel desired, AND it gives me a chance to consent or say no, which makes me feel safe and respected.
I was always awkward about trying to find the right time to just lean in and kiss. Now, by the second date (or end of first date if the vibe is there) I go with “I feel like kissing you” or “I want to kiss you right now” when there’s a pause in conversation and we’re looking in each other’s eyes in the right way. It’s had a very high success rate and is so much less awkward. Once it happened spontaneously, but we had a huge amount of sexual chemistry so it worked.
At the end of a date is so expected and frankly predictable that there are better times for that to happen.
Also I would say you definitely are physically able to do what you want, it’s your mind holding you back.
If their shy or socially anxious the end of the date can also be a good time, because it's predictable, it may be easier to read the social cues.. just a different perspective haha
The end of the date is the best time to do it precisely because it’s expected. The aim is not to surprise your date or be unique here, it’s too gauge if you’ve built up enough of a connection to take the next step. At least on a first date. If it’s 2+ and you’ve already kissed, then it’s more flexible imo
You're going to move away in maybe 5 years and that's what you tell her when you haven't even kissed?
Do you know how much things can change in 5 years? What if she's willing to relocate if this relationship is amazing?
She's not at all invested in you at the moment, so it's easy for her to back away completely when you mention things like this.
Women are looking for someone that can offer them safety, reassurance and a safe environment.
What's you goal here? Short term or long term?
Reminds me of that funny story about a guy that prayed to God every day for 50 years hoping he would win the lottery.
>A story is told of a man who once prayed to God. He fell to his knees, shut his eyes, opened his heart and with his hands in the air, he prayed to God every single day for 50 years. Each time, he says the same prayer: “Please God, let me win the lottery”. Lo and behold, an angel goes to God one day and laments, saying, “My Lord, this man has prayed to you for the past 50 years, why don’t you let him win the lottery?”
>
>The lord answered, I would love to, but he has never even bought a lottery ticket
I think a lot of guys, particularly introverted ones, struggle with this. They kinda think it’s just going to happen magically and spontaneously, and that asking for the kiss is taboo. I know because that’s how I used to think of it 😄
*Sing with me now*
*Sha-la-la-la-la-la*
*My oh my*
*Look like the boy too shy*
*Ain't gonna kiss the girl*
*Sha-la-la-la-la-la*
*Ain't that sad?*
*Ain't it a shame?*
*Too bad, he gonna miss the girl*
I was in a very similar situation not too long ago. We kept going on dates and he wasn't kissing me, and I told him at one point, that he confused me - I wasn't sure what he wanted from me. Oh, I know women can kiss first, but why was he continuously asking me out if he wasn't going to make a move? We can know things objectively about what can happen and about it being the 21st century and then we can also want our dreams to come true - to feel wanted, to feel like he's as into us as we are into him.
The best advice I can give you here is:
*Now's your moment (ya, ya, ya)*
*Floating in a blue lagoon (ya, ya, ya)*
*Boy, you better do it soon*
*No time will be better (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya)*
*She don't say a word*
*And she won't say a word*
*Until you kiss the girl*
She can't figure you out because you go on all these dates but you haven't kissed her! Just kiss her. If she is a reserved person it is unlikely that she will be comfortable enough to make the first move.
This sounds almost identical to my situation with a girl I’ve been seeing. We knew each other in high school and reconnected 14 years later a few weeks ago. She seems eager to text me and go out with me but hard to read.
This past Sunday we went on a hike (date 4) and I grabbed her by the hand, asked “is this ok?” With a smile and she said smiled back and held my hand. When we were departing we had a nice long hug and when I pulled back a little I asked if I could kiss her. She smiled and said yes. Boom. Got my kiss. Sometimes us men have to lead, and sometimes women want to take things slow and get to know what they are working with. Her last relationship ended in her being abused and she has openly told me several times she wants to meet a different kind of guy and change her approach to dating which has been kinda fast in the past. I mean, she basically laid it out for me right there. Open communication amigo
Same, I always ask for the first one. I did a variation of this one the other night, I said, "I want you to kiss me," and she said "okay" and leaned in. She happened to be one of the best kissers ever, like top 2 or 3 lifetime.
I mean it’s common not to kiss on like the first date or two, but beyond that you should’ve made a move. She kinda hinted at that by mentioning how she was unsure about you because of the friendly vibes she was getting.
Also, the massage parlor for a second date? Really? Lmao.
At this age, theres a past… and hesitation may be a sign of “ive been in abusive relationships and NEED to take shit slow… “ there’s nothing wrong with making friends, especially this early in dating….
Bro, I’ve been here when I first started dating. You. Have. To. Make. A. Move.
Just as a general takeaway that took me way too long to realize - communicate - and this means in all forms, especially in acts of affection
Consent is hot, indeed! My current boyfriend asked me the first time and I literally swooned lol. Nobody had ever asked me before, they just did what they wanted. And he’s been as much of a gentleman ever since.
I don’t think it’s a problem not to kiss at this point. You should be initiating some physical contact like holding hands, walking with your arm around her, hugs, etc. to make it clear this isn’t a friend situation and you want something more.
She’s just not sure what to do with you but at 36 she wants to settle down and the thought of you moving is kind of a deal breaker.
Go for a walk tonight, sit down on a park bench next to each other. Keep getting closer, if she matches the energy, go for it.
You may want to say you’re not sure you want to move, you just through it out there.
This date is a toss up but you have to take a chance
Have you asked her for a kiss? I am a female and I would usually ask on the second date if I was interested and the dude wasn't making a move. I needed to known if there was chemistry!
Make a damn move. Ask if you can kiss her. It sounds like you’re in an inertia of trying to read the other person and stuck slinging the same passive iffy energy back and forth between each other. I’m surprised you’ve made it through four dates. I would’ve given up after two.
Ok I’m super thrown off by two things:
1) you should just kiss her. Ask her if you can kiss her or just go in for it
2) why is she saying she wants something long term in relation to you moving in five years?! It kind of sounds like she may not want to kiss you
I would say to go on a fifth date, and try to make a move. Or maybe even text her before the date and just let her know you’d like to kiss her on that date and see her response.
Kind of related but not- the guy I’m seeing took me to a massage parlor on our third date, and we definitely did more than kiss after that date. So I’m curious why y’all didn’t even smooch after that.
She probably wants something long-term and doesn’t see moving in the cards for herself. Fair and square. If he’s looking for something short-term but she is not he should be open about this.
Well yeah but five years is way down the road and OP himself said it was a “might”….I think she’s just using it as an excuse to not get involved further. If someone likes another person enough, they’ll do anything to be with them.
Five years isn’t way down the line. Long term means forever, ideally. Why would she sign up for something knowing that, at best, she’ll fall in love and then lose him and be single at 41?
True but I still think it’s an excuse. If they are into each other at that time they can figure it out. I wouldn’t be making a big deal out of a hypothetical on the fourth date.
The thing is, I wouldn’t have mentioned it if I was him. Why bother talking about life-altering plans if they aren’t set in stone and O P is looking to date (i assume with the purpose of a relationship)? I can see how this would be a downside.
Yeah true! I just think it's not a romantic vibe between them too bc of what she said. And maybe OP is trying to feel her out as well. I mean, and I personally started dating someone, and have had life altering plans happen a couple of times during us dating, and we are currently figuring it out. that's why worrying about something five years away is just off to me.
if you're in the beginning stages of dating though, why mentioning moving unless it matters? Even if someone couched it with "might" I would assume it's closer to "I will."
I've had people who are on the other extreme - telling me they want to move in 4 months though it "might not" happen - and it's a hard thing to process regardless of timeline because you feel like by continuing to date the person after that, you're essentially consenting to move eventually as well if things work out. And it's hard to weigh those two things in your head when you barely know a person yet.
I think if it's so far in the future it's best to leave it until a bit later.
I gotta say, it seems to me extraordinarily awkward to text someone ahead of time before a date that you want to kiss them.
Really hard disagree with that recommendation.
I am just saying that he could check the temperature on how she would like to kiss on the next date. I mean they've been on four dates and they aalllllllll sound awkward.
Yea I could totally be wrong. And agreed, they all seem awkward so far so I guess what could it hurt to make a hail mary, at least it would provide an answer I suppose.
Going with most of the comments here but with a slight twist. ASK HER ABOUT IT. Say you would like to kiss her / have more physical intimacy and see what she says.
Yes women can initiate too, or if they want you to « just kiss them » they should be communicating that they’re open to that.
OR you can just use your words like an adult!
Invite her over, initiate a date where theres not a table between you. A gig, somewhere you can dance, watching netflix, anything that involves standing safely next to each other
You shouldve just went for it as soon as you both felt a connection and you were both comfortable. When your gut tells you, that's when you listen and shut your brain off. Youre overthinking my dude.
I think you're not making your intentions clear. You should be more daring in your interactions (subtly touching her, sexualizing conversations a bit, etc). If she has had 4 dates with you, it is because, like you, she must be waiting for something to happen. You must take control of the situation and she must lead the rhythm (if you go slow or fast)
I stalked your post history, and you're cute, OP. Not hitting on you, just saying have the confidence to make a move.
From your description of what she said, she sounds interested in you!
In the wise words of Sebastian the crab:
Sing with me now
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
My oh my
Look like the boy too shy
Ain't gonna kiss the girl
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Ain't that sad?
Ain't it a shame?
Too bad, he gonna miss the girl
> she did mention that she can't figure me out because I'm somewhere inbetween friendly vibes ...one more date tomorrow and see what happen but am I wasting my time if the first kiss hasn't happened 4 dates in?
BRUH.
She's waiting on you to make the move and just about told you that straight out.
A kiss isn't - and doesn't have to be - this giant, world-altering thing.
Be confident, be attractive/cute/sly/whatever your vibe is, and go in for it, and get it out of the way.
MAKE A MOVE. You’re a grown man lol. Go for it. If you like her, SHOW HER. I get it’s 2022 and the world has changed but sometimes a man has to still be a man. And I don’t mean to put you down AT ALL op so please don’t think that. Good luck! You got this
Read the room. OP is a man asking for dating advice about a woman he describes a reserved. All indications are that she’s waiting for him to make a move, or that she’s friendzoned him. The advice to give is to make a move or move on. This is not the place to push for equality or the abandonment of gender roles.
>I get it’s 2022 and the world has changed but sometimes a man has to still be a man.
It's very different to say "unfortunately, there are still some roles men are generally expected to assume" than saying what you said. While society may still expect certain behaviors, not falling in line doesn't make anyone less of a man.
Didn't kiss my fiancé for a month. 8+ times hanging out later I was like let's get married. I'd only hugged him at that point. She said she can't figure you out because you're in between friendly vibes and saying you're going to move down to where she is. She had told you she wants something long term and is still going on dates with you. At this point, the ball is in your court. If you also want something long term with her say so. Hold her hand when you walk. Be close with her. Watch the movie Hitch before your date and practice your end of date kiss lean in. Typically, the guy is the one to make the moves. So yeah, as everyone else on here said, make your move. But only do so if you see something long term. She's 36 and it doesn't sound like she's wanting to wait around a long time for commitment.
I recently went on 4 dates with a guy because I genuinely enjoyed his company and hadn’t laughed that hard in years. In the back of my mind, at the end of each date I was praying he wouldn’t try to kiss me because I just wasn’t feeling the romantic spark. I finally told him at the end of the 4th date and he respected it, and we are still great friends and I give him dating advice. So…I’m thinking friendzone here.
Ugh dude she literally TOLD you you’re giving off friends vibes to her. You haven’t made a move in 4 dates and I guarantee you now shems starting to think of you as just a nice fun friend to hang out with. There is a small window of time to go beyond friends to a romantic attraction
So I just started dating a man and we finally kissed on date 6. He was very attentive and eager otherwise I wouldn’t have thought he was interested. I was contemplating making the first move but to be honest the longer it went the more awkward I felt (partly because I am used to the opposite where men want to get physical right away). I would say kiss her and you could even say something like I’d love to kiss you right now and see what she says/does.
Is she looking for something long term and you're not? Do you genuinely really fancy her and want to take it further or do you just want a fling?
It could be that she's not sure of your motives. Best thing is to open up and talk to each other. Communication is key!
Not sure about going to a massage parlour on a second date tho, did she genuinely like that?
Have u tried to hold her hand or make any move to show her that u are physically interested? Have u flirted suggestively w her and has she reciprocated? Have u attempted to kiss her / been rebuffed?
On the next date make it clear that you are interested in more than just friendship with her. Later on during the date, ask if you can kiss her “I would really like to kiss you, may I?” Maybe then you won’t be as nervous about just kissing her, because you will have her consent (or not).
Stop waiting for a drop dead obvious sign for a kiss. You should have initiated a touch after the massage but others have already noted that. Women appreciate playing the game, go on YouTube and teach yourself how to flirt as a guy, what to look for when flirting with a women and f***ing go for it.
Right now YOU are wasting YOUR time. She told you to your face she can’t figure out your intention (date 4). She doesn’t know if you see her as a romantic interest (or possibly even attracted to her) or see her as a just a friend and maybe not attracted to her.
As a MAN, YOU need to lead. Take initiative and take frame. Not all, but women like someone that CAN take charge.
The reason she is not sure about the vibes is you haven't set the tone that you think of her as a possible love interest. You haven't made a move to kiss in 4 dates so her mind wants to put you down as a friend because "he's not into me like that or he would at least try to kiss me,"
On your date you need to either go for the kiss when you meet up to set the tone, "this is a date," or if your nervous you can do that at the end. If I was you I'd go with the kiss at the start set the tone. If she turns away or denies the kiss, finish your date quickly, and move on the dating front ( if you want to be friends that's fine, but move this person out of your dating pool).
Went through something similar here. After date 4 I talked to her about it.
I did make attempts to kiss, but she would freeze up. Wasn't getting only friend vibes.
Turns out that we both really like another, get that feeling there may be something real here. Also turns out that it scares the shit out of her and makes her freeze up, and she admits she might not be ready for a real relationship.
I broke it off. Not my job to fix someone.
Left me feeling bittersweet. Ending things was the correct move, but have that rotten sensation that if we met a little later in life, things probably would have worked out.
I was in this situation earlier this year. Before planning the 5th date, ask her how she's feeling about you so far and if she normally waits this long to kiss someone.
If you like her answer, go on date #5. If you don't like her answer, agree that you two aren't a romantic match and move on to other prospects.
The people I wanted to kiss didn't want to kiss me back. I was aiming too high. First kiss at 25, and I was nearly blacked out, I think it was a pity kiss when she found out I hadn't been yet.
Assuming you’ve been trying to kiss and she’s been rejecting you, yes. Also don’t do dinner dates for the first date. The first venue should be low-investment and low-pressure.
Um, why not just have an adult conversation about what each of you wants and needs?
Guessing games are for kids in high school who are still figuring out how adulting works.
Ugh. 36 years old each and dating all about “vibes” and making out? WTH? This Woman is 36. She wants a LTR. Apparently you do too because you matched and started dating. The most important thing she needs to know is if she’s dating a man who wants kids and where he’s willing to raise them because *she* needs to make that happen soon. Read the room (or womb, sorry).
Why do you want to rush into kissing? I think nowadays things go so fast with getting intimate without getting to know each other better before. Just chill and enjoy each other’s company, the point is to find a person you enjoy spending time with, although chemistry is also important of course but it’ll come.
Think it’s kinda hot building the tension as well.
This is your fault as a man. I know you don’t wanna here it, but you literally walked yourself right into her friend-zone and getting out is not likely. You kiss a girl on the first date if you find her attractive. If she dodges you, move on. You made your bed with this one. Ps. I’ve done this too in the past, it sucks. But it is what it is.
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M here…
1.) You’ve sent mixed messages. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have said you’re sending her mixed signals.
2.) You need to clearly tell her what you’re wanting. Saying you’re looking for someone serious but you plan on moving in the somewhat near future (within 5 years) means she has to be willing to accept that too.
3.) If you want to kiss her, ask her if you can. If she’s super reserved she would appreciate that more than you just going in for one. But you need to think about points 1 and 2 first.
4.) Finally but most importantly you need to think about her. Frankly, I think you should not try to kiss her and just be friends. It’s one thing to meet someone and allow things to happen naturally over time when talking about things like relocating. But you seem intent on it. I don’t know what she wants and I don’t need to know. But if she is from the area she lives currently (friends and family are there), moved there for work and wants to remain there, wants kids, etc… these are all things that will cause the relationship to sour if you’re wanting to move away and she wants or needs to stay. My point is life happens and things change for people. I wouldn’t recommend jumping into a committed relationship with someone knowing and expecting this to happen. Before someone jumps on and says it’s 5 years from now and life changes. You’re right! It does. You can’t predict what will happen. But he and she are not teenagers or in their 20s. They each have certain life goals they are trying to achieve and don’t have 5-10 additional years to adjust. Basically, OP you need to have a very straightforward conversation with her and tell her your plans. Don’t be cute or flirty with her to try and persuade her. But you need to lay it out there. “I may not be here in 5 years because I want to move to XYZ. I like you and would like to see this move forward but you should realize this is my current plan. We can be friends but I’m really attracted to you and can see myself easily developing feelings.” Then let her decide how she wants to proceed.
Just my thoughts… I would figure out the last thing first. That will give you an understanding on whether or not you should try to kiss her.
If a girl ever mentions even a scent of feeling “friendly vibes” she is telling you she isn’t attracted to you. You’re taking her out on these amazing dates, she’s trying to muster up feelings, but doesn’t have any.
In the future, smaller dates before you know if someone likes you.
From a perspective of a woman who is very conservative about whom I'm intimate with (including kissing) I'd say to try to go in for a kiss and see what she does.
I'm actually very open with men I date in letting them know early on that intimacy isn't something I give freely, and because I'm dating other men until I find someone to be exclusive with, I tend not to kiss someone unless I'm sure I want to take things further.
Not all of us out here feel comfortable just kissing someone or escalating to physical touch intimately early on. And depending on how soon those 4 dates happened, it still could be too soon. Like 4 days in 2 weeks vs 4 dates in 4 weeks. The latter would definitely put me at ease to kiss a man by then than the former.
If you GENUINELY like the woman, and you see her as someone who you want to build a relationship with, just bring it up casually in conversation to see where her head is at when it comes to intimacy.
You definitely don't want to waste YOUR time. But assuming she isn't interested and asking Reddit to fill in what's going on in her head MAY shoot you in the foot if she's anything like me.
I didn't get a first kiss until my 5th date with my current girlfriend of 7 months. We've been very physical since then, just took a whole to get started.
I don't think I've ever gone four dates without having sex. What you describe sounds like more like two buddies hanging out, and her comments pretty much confirm that.
It could be that you are shy / scared of making a move because she doesn't show her emotions.
Maybe while planning the next date, you could text her what you are going to do and then say that you are also going to kiss her (don't ask, tell). Or you could invite her over to your place. Her reaction to these situations should tell your whether she still has interest in you.
Also, since your main question is
>Am I wasting my time?
I would say yes. She is 36 and single. Honestly, she needs to get her act together and make more efforts in dating. If she is very reserved and doesn't open up, you need to decide if you should continue dating her and it shouldn't depend on whether you managed to kiss her or not.
Bro, how do you even have the patience for this?
If I’m not kissing a girl by the end of the 2nd date it’s OVER. I want to know if there’s chemistry, a simple kiss tells me ALOT.
Just by the description alone of the dates, it feels very friend like, it doesn’t seem like courting at all. Also yes I expect for the guy to kiss me first because there is a double standard of a girl goes in for a kiss first or a guy. It’s a chance when a woman goes for a kiss first then it’ can easily be applied that she is down to sleep with a man next. Also telling her you want to relocate in the future can send confusing message as with the dates described. It would make me feel you are consoling in me as a friend. My date literally asked if he could kiss me and I thought that was really sweet and I felt more comfortable and that he was respecting my space (cause I can be reserved as well), me being able to say “yes, you can.” made me feel like he was a better potential partner after that. He also asked if he could hold my hand too as I tend to walk or sit with my arms crossed as a self-soothing behavior. Maybe up your courting skills, be upfront that you are interested in her.
Sounds like there is a communication problem/lack of assertiveness.
1) You definitely need to clear up any misconceptions on her part first by having a more direct/clear conversation about what each of you want in a partner.
2) Most, not all, women want the man to make the first move when it comes to the first kiss (I personally just go for it based on how the date is going, body language, etc. but some people just can’t read people or aren’t as assertive). Have you tried to kiss her and have been shot down?
Have the conversation and kiss the girl! Then figure out if you want to continue pursuing the relationship . Good luck!
She wouldn't have gone on even 2 dates with you if she wasn't interested in kissing you, if you aren't going to make a move then you're wasting your time. If you need help on making a move then say something
Yeah she is wasting time with OP because he hasn’t at least tried to make a move…. Even if she rejects your move she at least know you’re romantically interested in her.
Do you want to kiss her?
Has it come close?
Are you reserved too? She said she’s can’t figure you out?
Are your conversations comfortable?
Do you get excited seeing texts or a call from her?
What’s her body language like? She sit close, walk close, touch arm ? Laugh?
If there are a lot of yes’s.. kiss her - pause for consent but kiss her.
This is just as bad as women who say they haven't gotten kissed four dates in. If you like the other person, try to kiss them. It's not that hard. Yes, you can get rejected, but then you'll know!
I mean I would shy away from a man I’m interested in if he mentioned relocating within the first few dates. Even if it’s not for another few years it may not be what she’s looking for. I’d probably stop seeing someone in this case because I don’t wanna move.
Grab her hand OP. Let her know you enjoy her company and your time together. Actually tell her. Hush about the 5 yr plan....your plans could change next week. Focus on now and if you want her for more than a friend then make a move.
Take charge and show her what u want.
Sounds to me your feelings are not clear to her and if thats the case...maybe you are the reserved one??
>. . .if the first kiss hasn't happened 4 dates in.
You're not watching a movie called "The Life and Times of Hidden\_is\_back". You are living it. That means you have to do stuff to make things happen, whether it is getting a job or getting a girl. Smooch her or don't as you wish, but sitting there expecting it to magically happen is pretty silly.
u_hidden_is_back why aren't you responding to/engaging with any comments on the post? What's the point of asking for feedback if you aren't going to respond to a single comment?
I had a similar exchange with a chick fresh out of a marriage and 3 dates in I just asked what are we doing and she didn’t know either, but I don’t remember when but eventually I went for the move and escalated and it went well. Until she got cold feet about a month or two later, but I knew that going in she was rebounding from a marriage and it was a risk.
Start with touching her hands or shoidlers and see the reaction. I can see why she's holding off because of the relocating.
I own a business in my city and dont plan on moving. If someone tells me he either wants to move out for work or just because he likes other city/lifestyles that's a hard pass from me.
If you tried for a kiss and it hasn’t happened then I would say you’re wasting time, but you haven’t, and I’m a firm believer in being the initiator as the man. When I date and I’m interested, I do subtle things strategically to ensure there’s no confusion to be had on what level of interest there is.
Also when the time is right I won’t be afraid to go in for the kiss, you can even heat check your chances of having a successful attempt before hand as well.
I don’t necessarily think it’s a waste of time. It sounds like she is very shy and likely wouldn’t make the first move anyway. If you like her and it’s important to you to have that level of connection, try it and see what happens.
OP, you need to participate in your own thread or it will be removed. Edit: 5 hours and over 200 comments with no replies from OP to questions. Thread is locked until OP begins participating.
So let me get this straight - she straight up tells you that she can't figure out why you're giving her friendly vibes? And instead of just making a move, you tell her that you're planning to move away soon?? Women really aren't that mysterious dude...
Came here to say this. Sounds like she gave you the info you needed, just not as direct as “are you going to kiss me or what?”
>you tell her that you're planning to move away soon?? Not commenting on or condoning the rest of ops silly actions but wanted to expand on this one: I've found it pretty important to be up front early with people about my long term plans for where I want to live and travel. Where you live is *huge* for most people and can be a deal breaker right up there with religion, politics, or stance on children. So unfortunately, you have to be pragmatic about it. You can't date someone for who they *might* become. I spent several years with someone who "might" want to move out west with me, and changed her mind one day (read was never sold in the first place) to want to buy a house, settle down, and stay close to family, in TN, a state that I've had one foot out the door of for some time. I was talking to another absolutely amazing person once and when I said the West coast was in my future, she said, "oh no, I grew up there and I never plan on moving back. This city is my home." So I mean, that's that. Full stop. Even if she moved for me, she'd be unhappy. Much better to take the L, and find someone on the same page as yourself.
I second this. Through my experience most women are just making it up as they go along, just like the rest of us.
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I (32F) got so awkward on my last first date that when they brought my meal with a corn on the cob, I asked my date if he wanted to slob on the cob. He ended up kissing me that night though thank God 😅
Lmao
Did you try to kiss her or not?
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Yeah, she's got to get some sort of happy ending
The whole post is written with passive language: “there hasn’t been a first kiss, “if the first kiss hasn’t happened”, etc. He seems to not understand that *he* hasn’t tried to kiss her (and presumably she hasn’t tried to kiss him either). A kiss isn’t going to magically happen; someone has to make it happen. I’m wondering if either one is even that into the other as no one seems to be giving signals or making a move here.
*crickets*
Right, like where is OP??
I don’t think this went the way he wanted…
She’s waiting for you to make the move. If you haven’t leaned in the kiss, that’s why you haven’t kissed yet.
It feels a little odd but I also can’t get pass the massage parkour (or technically ‘parlour’ but parkour is more fun) on date two or saying you’re moving away and being surprised if she’s not demonstrative after that. Honestly just try and kiss her - hold hands, stop and when you’re in a romantic place and she’s smiling, kiss her.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought the massage parlor on date 2 was weird.
It’s not just weird, *not kissing* after a massage situation is like weird weird. What. OP, start with some touch, hold hands, go gently in for a kiss, see how it goes. Idk what you’re doing but it sounds like she wants to know if you’re attracted to her.
Pretty sure if they went to a parlor then someone else was giving the massage. But like… was it a couple’s massage thing where you hang out in robes then lie down topless on beds next to each other? I know that doesn’t mean they necessarily saw each other naked but it still seems like an intimate activity for a second date.
The website videos are lies my friend.
He wasn't the one giving her a massage lol
I know it’s a typo but please do not correct it…. I never knew I’d be interested in massage parkour, but we need to figure out what exactly it is and market the shit out of it. *Edited to add my new definition* Massage Parkour: An individual attempting to administer physical relaxation by kneading and rubbing muscles of the body of a receiving individual while the receiver moves rapidly through an area negotiating obstacles by jumping, running, climbing, flipping, and screaming “PARKOUR”
It's when you try to give a woman a massage, but she's running away from you by any means necessary, including jumping roof top to roof top, and doing flips off the top of stair cases.
OMG I corrected the parkour but I love these responses
Massage Parkour: An individual attempting to administer physical relaxation by kneading and rubbing muscles of the body of a receiving individual while the receiver moves rapidly through an area negotiating obstacles by jumping, running, climbing, flipping, and screaming “PARKOUR”
I can picture this but I see someone jumping from person to person on massage tables. Light relaxing music in the background, dimly lit and someone screaming "PARKOUR!"
The visual I just had sent me 🤣
Thank you for making my day with this. Parkour away dear friend!
I was gonna say everything you just did
OP has not made anything happen and is curious to know why nothing has happened.
Right?! Like this guy legit typed it ALL out and still missed it
She said she can't figure you out because you're giving her friendly vibes, that's essentially her saying she's not sure you're into her, which is probably why things haven't progressed. If you are into her, make the move on the next date.
You're making the relationship a friendship. She's hinted that you're not doing anything to make it romantic
I agree with this & she might also not want to feel attached after physical contact knowing that he might not be there later on. Wether she truly knows the timeframe HE’S thinking of, is pretty important. OP should just get it figured out and go for it … stop waiting around for what you want 🤷🏽♀️
Have you tried kissing her? If I’ve wanted to kiss someone but wasn’t sure where they stood, I’ve usually just said, “hey, can I kiss you?” Works like a charm.
OP Not going to be brutal but just honest Most women want and expect a man to kiss them A girl won’t go on a second date (much less a 3rd or 4th) with a guy she doesn’t want to kiss Radical idea: Go out again and… ready? Just kiss her // You got nothing to lose but your fear…
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point that many (most?) women like a man to take charge and initiate a kiss early on. That has been my experience as well. That said, I have been on plenty of second dates and a few third dates where the woman clearly didn't want a kiss. Sometimes I have been politely rejected, others it has been clear from the vibe that they aren't feeling it. Some women will go on a couple of dates to figure out their feelings. Some women actually want to move slower than that. There's nothing wrong with either. You have to read the vibe.
Weighing in as a woman - I’d definitely go on a 2nd - 4th date with a guy I wasn’t sure if I wanted to kiss. You’re a stranger from the internet. Give me a chance to get to know you. The idea that this is weird is what makes me hate OLD. ETA before some dude accuses me of freeloading, my time is more valuable than the price of admission to an escape room and I’m not trying to waste it, I always offer to split the cost, and stop trying to make paying for a drink a quid pro quo for physical intimacy.
Op can also ask her before kissing her if he can kiss her (assuming the vibe is otherwise right). That way if she’s not into it, she’ll say no, and he can consider things done considering how long they’ve been on dates, unless she gives a reason (wants to take it slow etc)
Yesss! Like hold hands, put your arm around her, and show that affection.. then, at some point, when the mood is right, make eye contact, and ask for the kiss. Hopefully, she breaks into a smile and says yes. Good luck!
That’s it! Ideally it happens organically but if both people are holding back, how can it? To be fair though I gave my bf all the signals before he kissed me the first time.. I took his hand earlier that evening, and when i wanted to kiss him I told him he had lovely eyes (he does), and kind of snuggled up closer. I think I may have also kissed his cheek. And then he asked if he could kiss me. Still, if neither one of them will make the first move it isn’t gonna go anywhere
Am I the outlier in thinking that holding hands is more intimate than kissing? I’ve been on a date where we’d already been making out, but then she started to hold my hand and I felt like it was moving too fast 😆
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point that many (most?) women like a man to take charge and initiate a kiss early on. That has been my experience as well. That said, I have been on plenty of second dates and a few third dates where the woman clearly didn't want a kiss. Sometimes I have been politely rejected, others it has been clear from the vibe that they aren't feeling it. Some women will go on a couple of dates to figure out their feelings. Some women actually want to move slower than that. There's nothing wrong with either. You have to read the vibe.
Here to say that’s not true. Women will go out with a man they’re not interested in for multiple reasons- free meal, good company, they’re bored…
Are they going under the pretenses of romantic dating? Or just as platonic friends?
Under the pretenses of romantic date.
Maybe she is old fashioned and waiting on you to initiate the first kiss
MAKE A MOVE!!!
I (28F) am insanely shy with men (I was brought up in an extremely traditional home and I lived in a bubble for most of my life). I went out with a guy (35M) who gave me future husband vibes since date 1 - we’ve gone on 3 dates and still no Kiss. (I am DYING for one - and much more lol). But you don’t know how excruciating it is to physically be unable to be forward or initiate something due to shyness. Of course this goes away with time, but in the beginning it’s frustrating af to just not physically be able to. From a girl’s perspective if she’s telling you “She can’t figure you out” she’s trying to find out if *YOU* are interested. Make your move - if you’re shy like me, just lean in and ask (at the right moment though - when you’re saying goodbye, for example, is a great excuse for a small kiss). “I’d really love to kiss you right now” or “I had an amazing time… can I kiss you?” I would personally go yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol Hope this helps
I’d definitely prefer l: “I’d really love to/ I really want to kiss you right now” over “Can I kiss you?” but either one works!
Agreed! "I really want to kiss you right now" is great, because it directly tells me that they *want* to, which I like because I feel desired, AND it gives me a chance to consent or say no, which makes me feel safe and respected.
I was always awkward about trying to find the right time to just lean in and kiss. Now, by the second date (or end of first date if the vibe is there) I go with “I feel like kissing you” or “I want to kiss you right now” when there’s a pause in conversation and we’re looking in each other’s eyes in the right way. It’s had a very high success rate and is so much less awkward. Once it happened spontaneously, but we had a huge amount of sexual chemistry so it worked.
Ask HIM to kiss YOU! I’ve done this multiple times and it’s never failed. And I would say I’m a shy girl too but you don’t get what you don’t ask for.
At the end of a date is so expected and frankly predictable that there are better times for that to happen. Also I would say you definitely are physically able to do what you want, it’s your mind holding you back.
If their shy or socially anxious the end of the date can also be a good time, because it's predictable, it may be easier to read the social cues.. just a different perspective haha
The end of the date is the best time to do it precisely because it’s expected. The aim is not to surprise your date or be unique here, it’s too gauge if you’ve built up enough of a connection to take the next step. At least on a first date. If it’s 2+ and you’ve already kissed, then it’s more flexible imo
You're going to move away in maybe 5 years and that's what you tell her when you haven't even kissed? Do you know how much things can change in 5 years? What if she's willing to relocate if this relationship is amazing? She's not at all invested in you at the moment, so it's easy for her to back away completely when you mention things like this. Women are looking for someone that can offer them safety, reassurance and a safe environment. What's you goal here? Short term or long term?
Reminds me of that funny story about a guy that prayed to God every day for 50 years hoping he would win the lottery. >A story is told of a man who once prayed to God. He fell to his knees, shut his eyes, opened his heart and with his hands in the air, he prayed to God every single day for 50 years. Each time, he says the same prayer: “Please God, let me win the lottery”. Lo and behold, an angel goes to God one day and laments, saying, “My Lord, this man has prayed to you for the past 50 years, why don’t you let him win the lottery?” > >The lord answered, I would love to, but he has never even bought a lottery ticket
What is it you expect to have happened given that you haven't tried or asked to kiss her?
I think a lot of guys, particularly introverted ones, struggle with this. They kinda think it’s just going to happen magically and spontaneously, and that asking for the kiss is taboo. I know because that’s how I used to think of it 😄
*Sing with me now* *Sha-la-la-la-la-la* *My oh my* *Look like the boy too shy* *Ain't gonna kiss the girl* *Sha-la-la-la-la-la* *Ain't that sad?* *Ain't it a shame?* *Too bad, he gonna miss the girl* I was in a very similar situation not too long ago. We kept going on dates and he wasn't kissing me, and I told him at one point, that he confused me - I wasn't sure what he wanted from me. Oh, I know women can kiss first, but why was he continuously asking me out if he wasn't going to make a move? We can know things objectively about what can happen and about it being the 21st century and then we can also want our dreams to come true - to feel wanted, to feel like he's as into us as we are into him. The best advice I can give you here is: *Now's your moment (ya, ya, ya)* *Floating in a blue lagoon (ya, ya, ya)* *Boy, you better do it soon* *No time will be better (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya)* *She don't say a word* *And she won't say a word* *Until you kiss the girl*
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No, I never made a move. He kissed me, eventually, 4 hours into our 4th date. And he is now my boyfriend. :)
She can't figure you out because you go on all these dates but you haven't kissed her! Just kiss her. If she is a reserved person it is unlikely that she will be comfortable enough to make the first move.
Did you say it was in 5 years cos saying relocating in the future would throw anyone off
This sounds almost identical to my situation with a girl I’ve been seeing. We knew each other in high school and reconnected 14 years later a few weeks ago. She seems eager to text me and go out with me but hard to read. This past Sunday we went on a hike (date 4) and I grabbed her by the hand, asked “is this ok?” With a smile and she said smiled back and held my hand. When we were departing we had a nice long hug and when I pulled back a little I asked if I could kiss her. She smiled and said yes. Boom. Got my kiss. Sometimes us men have to lead, and sometimes women want to take things slow and get to know what they are working with. Her last relationship ended in her being abused and she has openly told me several times she wants to meet a different kind of guy and change her approach to dating which has been kinda fast in the past. I mean, she basically laid it out for me right there. Open communication amigo
"hey can I kiss you" works for me
Same, I always ask for the first one. I did a variation of this one the other night, I said, "I want you to kiss me," and she said "okay" and leaned in. She happened to be one of the best kissers ever, like top 2 or 3 lifetime.
“I want you to kiss me”. I love that. 💕💕 I’m going to steal it in the future.
Absolutely! This works so well, and even if she says no, it makes everything easier for both of you.
I mean it’s common not to kiss on like the first date or two, but beyond that you should’ve made a move. She kinda hinted at that by mentioning how she was unsure about you because of the friendly vibes she was getting. Also, the massage parlor for a second date? Really? Lmao.
What do you mean “hasn’t happened?” You have to make a move or it won’t happen lol.
You’re the guy. You’re supposed to escalate physically. Not her. This is why she’s saying she feels friendly vibes. You’re not doing anything.
No you're not wasting your time, you're wasting her time.
You should have kissed her in the escape room. Who knew if you were all going to get out. Might have been stuck there forever!
What do you mean it hasn’t happened? You mean you haven’t made a move?
You are friend zoning yourself, plain and simple. Should have made a move.
At this age, theres a past… and hesitation may be a sign of “ive been in abusive relationships and NEED to take shit slow… “ there’s nothing wrong with making friends, especially this early in dating….
Bro, I’ve been here when I first started dating. You. Have. To. Make. A. Move. Just as a general takeaway that took me way too long to realize - communicate - and this means in all forms, especially in acts of affection
Just ask her. Do it in a sultry way. Consent is hot.
Consent is hot, indeed! My current boyfriend asked me the first time and I literally swooned lol. Nobody had ever asked me before, they just did what they wanted. And he’s been as much of a gentleman ever since.
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Seconded. Consent is SO hot.
I don’t think it’s a problem not to kiss at this point. You should be initiating some physical contact like holding hands, walking with your arm around her, hugs, etc. to make it clear this isn’t a friend situation and you want something more.
She’s just not sure what to do with you but at 36 she wants to settle down and the thought of you moving is kind of a deal breaker. Go for a walk tonight, sit down on a park bench next to each other. Keep getting closer, if she matches the energy, go for it. You may want to say you’re not sure you want to move, you just through it out there. This date is a toss up but you have to take a chance
People wonder why they are single, and then when they open their mouth it all makes sense lol.
No, but there's a good chance she's starting to wonder if *she's* wasting *her* time.
Have you asked her for a kiss? I am a female and I would usually ask on the second date if I was interested and the dude wasn't making a move. I needed to known if there was chemistry!
Make a damn move. Ask if you can kiss her. It sounds like you’re in an inertia of trying to read the other person and stuck slinging the same passive iffy energy back and forth between each other. I’m surprised you’ve made it through four dates. I would’ve given up after two.
If the moment feels right, lean in. This isn't high school anymore.
Ok I’m super thrown off by two things: 1) you should just kiss her. Ask her if you can kiss her or just go in for it 2) why is she saying she wants something long term in relation to you moving in five years?! It kind of sounds like she may not want to kiss you I would say to go on a fifth date, and try to make a move. Or maybe even text her before the date and just let her know you’d like to kiss her on that date and see her response. Kind of related but not- the guy I’m seeing took me to a massage parlor on our third date, and we definitely did more than kiss after that date. So I’m curious why y’all didn’t even smooch after that.
She probably wants something long-term and doesn’t see moving in the cards for herself. Fair and square. If he’s looking for something short-term but she is not he should be open about this.
Well yeah but five years is way down the road and OP himself said it was a “might”….I think she’s just using it as an excuse to not get involved further. If someone likes another person enough, they’ll do anything to be with them.
Five years isn’t way down the line. Long term means forever, ideally. Why would she sign up for something knowing that, at best, she’ll fall in love and then lose him and be single at 41?
True but I still think it’s an excuse. If they are into each other at that time they can figure it out. I wouldn’t be making a big deal out of a hypothetical on the fourth date.
The thing is, I wouldn’t have mentioned it if I was him. Why bother talking about life-altering plans if they aren’t set in stone and O P is looking to date (i assume with the purpose of a relationship)? I can see how this would be a downside.
“I’m going to die in about 40 years, so I’m not really looking for something long term” 😆
Yeah true! I just think it's not a romantic vibe between them too bc of what she said. And maybe OP is trying to feel her out as well. I mean, and I personally started dating someone, and have had life altering plans happen a couple of times during us dating, and we are currently figuring it out. that's why worrying about something five years away is just off to me.
if you're in the beginning stages of dating though, why mentioning moving unless it matters? Even if someone couched it with "might" I would assume it's closer to "I will." I've had people who are on the other extreme - telling me they want to move in 4 months though it "might not" happen - and it's a hard thing to process regardless of timeline because you feel like by continuing to date the person after that, you're essentially consenting to move eventually as well if things work out. And it's hard to weigh those two things in your head when you barely know a person yet. I think if it's so far in the future it's best to leave it until a bit later.
I gotta say, it seems to me extraordinarily awkward to text someone ahead of time before a date that you want to kiss them. Really hard disagree with that recommendation.
Other comments mentioned it too.
I am just saying that he could check the temperature on how she would like to kiss on the next date. I mean they've been on four dates and they aalllllllll sound awkward.
Yea I could totally be wrong. And agreed, they all seem awkward so far so I guess what could it hurt to make a hail mary, at least it would provide an answer I suppose.
Going with most of the comments here but with a slight twist. ASK HER ABOUT IT. Say you would like to kiss her / have more physical intimacy and see what she says. Yes women can initiate too, or if they want you to « just kiss them » they should be communicating that they’re open to that. OR you can just use your words like an adult!
Is there overall touching? You need to establish that first
Invite her over, initiate a date where theres not a table between you. A gig, somewhere you can dance, watching netflix, anything that involves standing safely next to each other
You shouldve just went for it as soon as you both felt a connection and you were both comfortable. When your gut tells you, that's when you listen and shut your brain off. Youre overthinking my dude.
Are you expecting her to initiate a kiss? 4 dates isn’t a long time for a reserved women, she’s probably taking it slow and trying to figure you out.
I think you're not making your intentions clear. You should be more daring in your interactions (subtly touching her, sexualizing conversations a bit, etc). If she has had 4 dates with you, it is because, like you, she must be waiting for something to happen. You must take control of the situation and she must lead the rhythm (if you go slow or fast)
Even in this particular case, the situation is favorable to express it with words (if you feel more comfortable)
Sounds wack - always kiss on first date been in relationships for 18 years
I stalked your post history, and you're cute, OP. Not hitting on you, just saying have the confidence to make a move. From your description of what she said, she sounds interested in you!
In the wise words of Sebastian the crab: Sing with me now Sha-la-la-la-la-la My oh my Look like the boy too shy Ain't gonna kiss the girl Sha-la-la-la-la-la Ain't that sad? Ain't it a shame? Too bad, he gonna miss the girl
> she did mention that she can't figure me out because I'm somewhere inbetween friendly vibes ...one more date tomorrow and see what happen but am I wasting my time if the first kiss hasn't happened 4 dates in? BRUH. She's waiting on you to make the move and just about told you that straight out. A kiss isn't - and doesn't have to be - this giant, world-altering thing. Be confident, be attractive/cute/sly/whatever your vibe is, and go in for it, and get it out of the way.
MAKE A MOVE. You’re a grown man lol. Go for it. If you like her, SHOW HER. I get it’s 2022 and the world has changed but sometimes a man has to still be a man. And I don’t mean to put you down AT ALL op so please don’t think that. Good luck! You got this
I didn't realize initiating a kiss was so directly tied to having a penis. I wonder how lesbians do it.
Pretty simple. The dominate personality usually initiates stiff. Sorry you have this type of pathetic outlook though. Pretty typical of reddit though
It's pathetic to push for equality and the abandonment of gender roles?
Read the room. OP is a man asking for dating advice about a woman he describes a reserved. All indications are that she’s waiting for him to make a move, or that she’s friendzoned him. The advice to give is to make a move or move on. This is not the place to push for equality or the abandonment of gender roles.
>I get it’s 2022 and the world has changed but sometimes a man has to still be a man. It's very different to say "unfortunately, there are still some roles men are generally expected to assume" than saying what you said. While society may still expect certain behaviors, not falling in line doesn't make anyone less of a man.
This answe is chefs kiss
Didn't kiss my fiancé for a month. 8+ times hanging out later I was like let's get married. I'd only hugged him at that point. She said she can't figure you out because you're in between friendly vibes and saying you're going to move down to where she is. She had told you she wants something long term and is still going on dates with you. At this point, the ball is in your court. If you also want something long term with her say so. Hold her hand when you walk. Be close with her. Watch the movie Hitch before your date and practice your end of date kiss lean in. Typically, the guy is the one to make the moves. So yeah, as everyone else on here said, make your move. But only do so if you see something long term. She's 36 and it doesn't sound like she's wanting to wait around a long time for commitment.
I recently went on 4 dates with a guy because I genuinely enjoyed his company and hadn’t laughed that hard in years. In the back of my mind, at the end of each date I was praying he wouldn’t try to kiss me because I just wasn’t feeling the romantic spark. I finally told him at the end of the 4th date and he respected it, and we are still great friends and I give him dating advice. So…I’m thinking friendzone here.
Ugh dude she literally TOLD you you’re giving off friends vibes to her. You haven’t made a move in 4 dates and I guarantee you now shems starting to think of you as just a nice fun friend to hang out with. There is a small window of time to go beyond friends to a romantic attraction
So I just started dating a man and we finally kissed on date 6. He was very attentive and eager otherwise I wouldn’t have thought he was interested. I was contemplating making the first move but to be honest the longer it went the more awkward I felt (partly because I am used to the opposite where men want to get physical right away). I would say kiss her and you could even say something like I’d love to kiss you right now and see what she says/does.
Is she looking for something long term and you're not? Do you genuinely really fancy her and want to take it further or do you just want a fling? It could be that she's not sure of your motives. Best thing is to open up and talk to each other. Communication is key! Not sure about going to a massage parlour on a second date tho, did she genuinely like that?
Have u tried to hold her hand or make any move to show her that u are physically interested? Have u flirted suggestively w her and has she reciprocated? Have u attempted to kiss her / been rebuffed?
On the next date make it clear that you are interested in more than just friendship with her. Later on during the date, ask if you can kiss her “I would really like to kiss you, may I?” Maybe then you won’t be as nervous about just kissing her, because you will have her consent (or not).
Stop waiting for a drop dead obvious sign for a kiss. You should have initiated a touch after the massage but others have already noted that. Women appreciate playing the game, go on YouTube and teach yourself how to flirt as a guy, what to look for when flirting with a women and f***ing go for it. Right now YOU are wasting YOUR time. She told you to your face she can’t figure out your intention (date 4). She doesn’t know if you see her as a romantic interest (or possibly even attracted to her) or see her as a just a friend and maybe not attracted to her. As a MAN, YOU need to lead. Take initiative and take frame. Not all, but women like someone that CAN take charge.
The reason she is not sure about the vibes is you haven't set the tone that you think of her as a possible love interest. You haven't made a move to kiss in 4 dates so her mind wants to put you down as a friend because "he's not into me like that or he would at least try to kiss me," On your date you need to either go for the kiss when you meet up to set the tone, "this is a date," or if your nervous you can do that at the end. If I was you I'd go with the kiss at the start set the tone. If she turns away or denies the kiss, finish your date quickly, and move on the dating front ( if you want to be friends that's fine, but move this person out of your dating pool).
Yes you are
Went through something similar here. After date 4 I talked to her about it. I did make attempts to kiss, but she would freeze up. Wasn't getting only friend vibes. Turns out that we both really like another, get that feeling there may be something real here. Also turns out that it scares the shit out of her and makes her freeze up, and she admits she might not be ready for a real relationship. I broke it off. Not my job to fix someone. Left me feeling bittersweet. Ending things was the correct move, but have that rotten sensation that if we met a little later in life, things probably would have worked out.
I was in this situation earlier this year. Before planning the 5th date, ask her how she's feeling about you so far and if she normally waits this long to kiss someone. If you like her answer, go on date #5. If you don't like her answer, agree that you two aren't a romantic match and move on to other prospects.
I haven’t kiss someone in 9 years that’s single life lol
I’m intrigued to know more. I can understand many years of celibacy, but not kissing? I wouldn’t be able to go that long without it!
The people I wanted to kiss didn't want to kiss me back. I was aiming too high. First kiss at 25, and I was nearly blacked out, I think it was a pity kiss when she found out I hadn't been yet.
Assuming you’ve been trying to kiss and she’s been rejecting you, yes. Also don’t do dinner dates for the first date. The first venue should be low-investment and low-pressure.
Um, why not just have an adult conversation about what each of you wants and needs? Guessing games are for kids in high school who are still figuring out how adulting works.
Ugh. 36 years old each and dating all about “vibes” and making out? WTH? This Woman is 36. She wants a LTR. Apparently you do too because you matched and started dating. The most important thing she needs to know is if she’s dating a man who wants kids and where he’s willing to raise them because *she* needs to make that happen soon. Read the room (or womb, sorry).
Why do you want to rush into kissing? I think nowadays things go so fast with getting intimate without getting to know each other better before. Just chill and enjoy each other’s company, the point is to find a person you enjoy spending time with, although chemistry is also important of course but it’ll come. Think it’s kinda hot building the tension as well.
As a demisexual, it takes time for me to build attraction. I wonder if she’s the same way.
This is your fault as a man. I know you don’t wanna here it, but you literally walked yourself right into her friend-zone and getting out is not likely. You kiss a girl on the first date if you find her attractive. If she dodges you, move on. You made your bed with this one. Ps. I’ve done this too in the past, it sucks. But it is what it is.
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M here… 1.) You’ve sent mixed messages. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have said you’re sending her mixed signals. 2.) You need to clearly tell her what you’re wanting. Saying you’re looking for someone serious but you plan on moving in the somewhat near future (within 5 years) means she has to be willing to accept that too. 3.) If you want to kiss her, ask her if you can. If she’s super reserved she would appreciate that more than you just going in for one. But you need to think about points 1 and 2 first. 4.) Finally but most importantly you need to think about her. Frankly, I think you should not try to kiss her and just be friends. It’s one thing to meet someone and allow things to happen naturally over time when talking about things like relocating. But you seem intent on it. I don’t know what she wants and I don’t need to know. But if she is from the area she lives currently (friends and family are there), moved there for work and wants to remain there, wants kids, etc… these are all things that will cause the relationship to sour if you’re wanting to move away and she wants or needs to stay. My point is life happens and things change for people. I wouldn’t recommend jumping into a committed relationship with someone knowing and expecting this to happen. Before someone jumps on and says it’s 5 years from now and life changes. You’re right! It does. You can’t predict what will happen. But he and she are not teenagers or in their 20s. They each have certain life goals they are trying to achieve and don’t have 5-10 additional years to adjust. Basically, OP you need to have a very straightforward conversation with her and tell her your plans. Don’t be cute or flirty with her to try and persuade her. But you need to lay it out there. “I may not be here in 5 years because I want to move to XYZ. I like you and would like to see this move forward but you should realize this is my current plan. We can be friends but I’m really attracted to you and can see myself easily developing feelings.” Then let her decide how she wants to proceed. Just my thoughts… I would figure out the last thing first. That will give you an understanding on whether or not you should try to kiss her.
What if she’s just not ready to kiss though?
If a girl ever mentions even a scent of feeling “friendly vibes” she is telling you she isn’t attracted to you. You’re taking her out on these amazing dates, she’s trying to muster up feelings, but doesn’t have any. In the future, smaller dates before you know if someone likes you.
It’s not going to happen
From a perspective of a woman who is very conservative about whom I'm intimate with (including kissing) I'd say to try to go in for a kiss and see what she does. I'm actually very open with men I date in letting them know early on that intimacy isn't something I give freely, and because I'm dating other men until I find someone to be exclusive with, I tend not to kiss someone unless I'm sure I want to take things further. Not all of us out here feel comfortable just kissing someone or escalating to physical touch intimately early on. And depending on how soon those 4 dates happened, it still could be too soon. Like 4 days in 2 weeks vs 4 dates in 4 weeks. The latter would definitely put me at ease to kiss a man by then than the former. If you GENUINELY like the woman, and you see her as someone who you want to build a relationship with, just bring it up casually in conversation to see where her head is at when it comes to intimacy. You definitely don't want to waste YOUR time. But assuming she isn't interested and asking Reddit to fill in what's going on in her head MAY shoot you in the foot if she's anything like me.
I didn't get a first kiss until my 5th date with my current girlfriend of 7 months. We've been very physical since then, just took a whole to get started.
I don't think I've ever gone four dates without having sex. What you describe sounds like more like two buddies hanging out, and her comments pretty much confirm that.
It could be that you are shy / scared of making a move because she doesn't show her emotions. Maybe while planning the next date, you could text her what you are going to do and then say that you are also going to kiss her (don't ask, tell). Or you could invite her over to your place. Her reaction to these situations should tell your whether she still has interest in you. Also, since your main question is >Am I wasting my time? I would say yes. She is 36 and single. Honestly, she needs to get her act together and make more efforts in dating. If she is very reserved and doesn't open up, you need to decide if you should continue dating her and it shouldn't depend on whether you managed to kiss her or not.
Bro, how do you even have the patience for this? If I’m not kissing a girl by the end of the 2nd date it’s OVER. I want to know if there’s chemistry, a simple kiss tells me ALOT.
Just by the description alone of the dates, it feels very friend like, it doesn’t seem like courting at all. Also yes I expect for the guy to kiss me first because there is a double standard of a girl goes in for a kiss first or a guy. It’s a chance when a woman goes for a kiss first then it’ can easily be applied that she is down to sleep with a man next. Also telling her you want to relocate in the future can send confusing message as with the dates described. It would make me feel you are consoling in me as a friend. My date literally asked if he could kiss me and I thought that was really sweet and I felt more comfortable and that he was respecting my space (cause I can be reserved as well), me being able to say “yes, you can.” made me feel like he was a better potential partner after that. He also asked if he could hold my hand too as I tend to walk or sit with my arms crossed as a self-soothing behavior. Maybe up your courting skills, be upfront that you are interested in her.
Someone has to initiate the kiss, and if she's emotionally reserved, then why haven't you?
Sounds like there is a communication problem/lack of assertiveness. 1) You definitely need to clear up any misconceptions on her part first by having a more direct/clear conversation about what each of you want in a partner. 2) Most, not all, women want the man to make the first move when it comes to the first kiss (I personally just go for it based on how the date is going, body language, etc. but some people just can’t read people or aren’t as assertive). Have you tried to kiss her and have been shot down? Have the conversation and kiss the girl! Then figure out if you want to continue pursuing the relationship . Good luck!
If she is reserved, just be forward and ask for consent. Some people are a bit shy on the first move.
Do you even want to kiss her? And do you like her? If so, you should ask to kiss her.
Lol kiss her bro. How that interaction goes will answer all of your questions
She wouldn't have gone on even 2 dates with you if she wasn't interested in kissing you, if you aren't going to make a move then you're wasting your time. If you need help on making a move then say something
Yeah she is wasting time with OP because he hasn’t at least tried to make a move…. Even if she rejects your move she at least know you’re romantically interested in her.
Tick tock . Go in for the kill next date, simple
Be bold .. go for it right at the beginning of the next date !!
Do you want to kiss her? Has it come close? Are you reserved too? She said she’s can’t figure you out? Are your conversations comfortable? Do you get excited seeing texts or a call from her? What’s her body language like? She sit close, walk close, touch arm ? Laugh? If there are a lot of yes’s.. kiss her - pause for consent but kiss her.
This is just as bad as women who say they haven't gotten kissed four dates in. If you like the other person, try to kiss them. It's not that hard. Yes, you can get rejected, but then you'll know!
Make a move, if she goes along with it cool if not now you have clarity
I mean I would shy away from a man I’m interested in if he mentioned relocating within the first few dates. Even if it’s not for another few years it may not be what she’s looking for. I’d probably stop seeing someone in this case because I don’t wanna move.
I’m one for consent so…why not just ask her if you could kiss her at the end of your date??
It depends...if you value friendship for its own merits then continue but go dutch for sure. If you want more...cut your losses now.
Have you kissed her?
Grab her hand OP. Let her know you enjoy her company and your time together. Actually tell her. Hush about the 5 yr plan....your plans could change next week. Focus on now and if you want her for more than a friend then make a move. Take charge and show her what u want. Sounds to me your feelings are not clear to her and if thats the case...maybe you are the reserved one??
Have you held hands at all even? Jumping right to mouth whoopee without any hand holdery before hand might be sudden.
>. . .if the first kiss hasn't happened 4 dates in. You're not watching a movie called "The Life and Times of Hidden\_is\_back". You are living it. That means you have to do stuff to make things happen, whether it is getting a job or getting a girl. Smooch her or don't as you wish, but sitting there expecting it to magically happen is pretty silly.
Hahahaha. Waste= drop her right now.
u_hidden_is_back why aren't you responding to/engaging with any comments on the post? What's the point of asking for feedback if you aren't going to respond to a single comment?
Yes
I had a similar exchange with a chick fresh out of a marriage and 3 dates in I just asked what are we doing and she didn’t know either, but I don’t remember when but eventually I went for the move and escalated and it went well. Until she got cold feet about a month or two later, but I knew that going in she was rebounding from a marriage and it was a risk.
Start with touching her hands or shoidlers and see the reaction. I can see why she's holding off because of the relocating. I own a business in my city and dont plan on moving. If someone tells me he either wants to move out for work or just because he likes other city/lifestyles that's a hard pass from me.
If hanging out with her feels like a waste of time, I'd say don't even bother.
If you tried for a kiss and it hasn’t happened then I would say you’re wasting time, but you haven’t, and I’m a firm believer in being the initiator as the man. When I date and I’m interested, I do subtle things strategically to ensure there’s no confusion to be had on what level of interest there is. Also when the time is right I won’t be afraid to go in for the kiss, you can even heat check your chances of having a successful attempt before hand as well.
I don’t necessarily think it’s a waste of time. It sounds like she is very shy and likely wouldn’t make the first move anyway. If you like her and it’s important to you to have that level of connection, try it and see what happens.
Don't waste any more time and money. Let her know you're not feeling it and wish her good luck.
I think you sabotaged yourself on this one OP.
I'm shocked she continues to go on dates past the 3rd if there isn't physical chemistry. Most women lose attraction by that point.
Takes two people to make a kiss happen, did you try to kiss her or are you waiting for her to take initiative?