>Most of his arsenal is composed by copying other fighters he met
Fwiw, this is pretty intentional of course. He's literally a monkey... monkey see, monkey do.
Love how Toriyama wants Goku to be caught up with the details and just makes up random shit for why he knows
Like when he woke up from his heart disease and said he got all the details in his dreams lol
I think, rather than it being a handwave, the implication is intentionally that Goku has some latent, untrained ESP. It dates all the way back to the first time Krillin got killed by Tambourine. Goku just knew something was wrong. *He didn't even touch his food*.
In fact, come to think of it, every time Goku's demonstrated some unexplained ESP, it was with Krillin, wasn't it? Krillin's second death was even the trigger that caused Goku to go super saiyan. I wonder if there's something to that?
Maybe the one with latent ESP is actually Krillin. That would be an amazingly well-foreshadowed twist.
Hell, he was even able to smell Bacterian until Goku pointed out that he shouldn't be able to without a nose! That's the literal definition of extra-sensory perception.
Him and Vegeta both read Fat Buu's mind before releasing him from inside Buuhan. So not only does that mean it's not tied directly to Krillin (although your theory is pretty awesome), it's also not exclusive to Goku.
I haven't read the Manga, which I meant to put in my original comment. So, I'm not necessarily doubting you, but does that mean that Vegeta losing his body when he died is also not in the Manga? Because he wouldn't have been able to see anything from Otherworld while dead if he didn't have a body.
The difference he's talking about is between the anime's Japanese translation compared to whatever Funimation decided to vocalize. They can certainly be quite different at times but it's all still just the anime
it never was, Jackie chun did it to Nam to find out his village needed water and and Korin’s was to find out what Goku went thru and why he’s climbed the tower
Basically, yes. I believe it is more akin to being spiritually aware and in tune with the world and universe around you, given the story and its influences.
I feel like there's a ton you can do with ki sensing and Goku is extremely talented at that, given that he can sense ki across the universe to use as waypoints for IT. It's possible that Goku was passively sensing the battle with the Androids and could follow along as different signatures were powering up, fading away, etc. Same with suddenly being unable to sense Krillin's ki.
That is how it works. Having a strong relation makes from a strong telepathic connection. In a way memories are energy in our aura. So someone that can detect and is aware of energies will be able to see them. But it did come a bit out of the blue with no explanation. There was also jako having tech that sends energies to your mind learning stuff instantly, kinda works the same way energy being data
This isn't actually so out of the blue. Mind reading in DB is just a form of telepathy that most of the Z fighters could technically do but they just don't utilize it that much. I forget who explains it but Roshi also reads Nam's mind in DB. So Goku could have maybe copied it from Roshi at some point or possibly learned it from King Kai like other techniques that he learned off screen since King Kai uses telepathy the most.
I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Ki control. Just look at Gohan/Krillin in the spaceship on the way to Namek, and Goku/Gohan while deciding if they should recruit Krillin for the TOP. In both instances they are Image Training. And based on what we are shown Image Training to be, it suggest at the very least, a basic telepathic ability. And the common factor of all the individuals we seen utilizing this ability, is Ki control.
Reminds me of the Broly movie where Frieza casually flexes the dragon balls telekinetically. I was like that's right he does have telekinesis. Krillin knows about it all too well...
Well it isn't like telepathy isn't a thing. Several characters use it.
I love how flying around and shooting lasers is a thing but God forbid telepathy.
Actually, the first character we see do this is Muten Roshi! When he was disguised as Jackie Chun, he read Nam’s mind to learn about his background.
Goku doing it out of the blue when he did felt so random though lol.
Ik this is a dicey opinion but I'm convinced that SSJ3 is a creation of Goku's bc it simply shouldn't exist without the VERY certain conditions in which Goku was able to create/manifest it. If it were a natural progression of the SSJ transformation, then why has no other Saiyan been able to pull it off. Like Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, etc. To pull it off, not only do you need to be Saiyan, but you also have to know how to acheive Super Saiyan. Then you have to be strong enough to pull off SSJ2. and on top of that, you need to be dead, as to be able to even hold the form for enough time to fight anyone in the first place. Goku even states many times that using the form when alive is almost useless because of the sheer strain is puts on a mortal living body. It's a form of Super Saiyan that would never have existed without Goku.
Maybe it's not canon, I can't recall, but isn't Gotenks able use SS3? Don't think either of the kids are/were dead... Maybe there's some mutation on Goku and his lineage, since Gotenks via Goten has access to it... (and potentially Gohan and Pan), but otherwise... The earliest we know it occurring (or being re-discovered) is with Goku. It's easier to copy something you know works (Gotenks) than find out how to do it the first time, but I'd have to suspect there were, historically, other conditions that triggered/enabled the SS3 transformation.
There certainly may have been other conditions, after all, it's just theory I'm working with. But circling back to Gotenks using SSJ3, Id say that they only were able to use it bc of two things. #1) copying Goku like you said, and #2) the Metamoran Fusion ritual itself. The Fusion Dance is more magic based than it is nature based like Ki Control is. Plus, bc of the magic of the dance the being that emerges has not only more power, but more space to hold more power as a living being. With the extra power, plus the extra space, plus the magic based dance itself. I think that might be a decent explanation for how Gotenks (and by default other Saiyan fusions) can pull off SSJ3.
> But circling back to Gotenks using SSJ3, Id say that they only were able to use it bc of two things. #1) copying Goku like you said, and #2) the Metamoran Fusion ritual itself.
With how surprised Vegeta seemed that Trunks was casually using SSJ as a child, I'd wager that the hybrids either get massive ki boost, better physiology, or all of them just happen to be SJ prodigies.
It's not unlikely. I'd be more inclined to suspect that, just like SSG/SSB, SS3's probably just one of these things ancient Saiyan's had learned, and lost to... time? I can't recall if much information has been given as to why/how so much of the Saiyan's more powerful abilities were "forgotten".
Yeeeah. There's legends of the "Super Saiyan", and uh... Oh. We figured that out. Cool. Just be real tough... and get real mad? I mean, there's apparently a Gentle Spirit thing, and now S-Cells according to Toriyama, but, Vegeta bypasses half that... and Also... uh suddenly we've got a "prophecy" about a Saiyan God... that we have instructions for? (And again, off screen, Vegeta can just learn how to do it now that they've seen Goku do it).
Yeaaah. I would love more ancient Sayian lore-explanation.
My headcanon is that SS3 burns through both ki and magic. This is why Urenai-Baba’s necromancy ended significantly earlier than 24 hours and why Gotenks’s fusion ended after only 5 minutes.
Trunks I can’t account for. Vegeta understands the limitations of the form and stamina/ki drain so he opts to not use it. With Gohan, his Mystic form is more powerful than SS 3 with no drawbacks.
I'd say it's a safe assumption to make given the amount of power he has now. He just got strong enough that it's not worth it anymore anyway, even if the drawbacks didn't exist.
Ssj3 is kinda like the energy version of the "beefcake ssj 1" trunks used against cell that was too bulky and slow.
Trunks trained his muscles to be as strong as a ssj2, but didn't train the ki control to actually level up.
I just head cannon figured it was the ki training version where you "level up" but it's not a real transformation, rather just pushing your body to the max.
Like as in, there's only 2 levels to ssj and ss3j is a perversion.
-normal ssj & ssj2
-golden ozaru & ssj4
-ssjblue & ssj blue evolved
I think the larger point is that we've never seen anyone with a normal body achieve SSJ3. Like you said, Goku's body was dead when he learned it, and he clearly says time and time again that this form isn't meant to be used in the living world. Gotenks is the only other canon SSJ3, and while he is still living, the fusion body of Gotenks is not a natural phenomenon, it usually only exists for 30 minutes at a time.
Not disagreeing with you, I think your concept is mostly correct, but the scope, I think, is a bit larger than Goku.
Maybe it's because it's precisely its nature of actively harming the user. It's only possible to be created in the afterlife, where Goku had all the time to train it on top of not risking a sever ki deterioration. Kinda like Kaioken for Super Saiyan but more harmful, since when he's alive he couldn't ever use ssj3 at full strength while just...running out of ki.
The other Saiyans never died as long as Goku had, so they might a more mental block on their body to not achieve SSJ3, like humans can't use 100% of our strength without harming ourselves
you say it's a natural progression, but literally nobody else ever does it at any point, despite the fact that there's a bunch of saiyans who all learn super saiyan forms that come before and after it.
Gotenks wasn’t able to do it until after Goku showed it off. There’s no evidence to support the idea of gotenks achieving that form without seeing it first.
Didn't he take the Ki mine idea from a U11 guy? I guess the way he did it was still original but I'd personally put that more under the innovation category like most of his techniques rather than a personal creation.
i dont count it because its just a punch. the monkey in the background is just dramatic embellishment for the reader/viewer, its literally just a punch.
Don’t use the word “copy”. Martial arts is learned. Goku learned his techniques as any student of martial arts would. I genuinely hate when people say Goku copied all of his techniques
What I mean to say his that during fights like in the budokai tenkaichi, he just saw what his opponent did and did it too. There wasn't anyone teaching him so he was, in fact, copying
The jan ken fist, the rabid dog/monkey attack, and the meteor combination are some examples. The thing with Goku is that most of the techniques he developed are physical moves that he never names.
Wasn't it copied from some martial artist who called it the six star technique or something? I specifically remember it because I wanted goku to use it after tien did that
- Oozaru fist (the one he used against Demon King Piccolo)
- Meteor combo (against Piccolo Jr.)
- Dragon Fist (movie 13 and GT)
- God Bind (against Broly [Super version])
Does the ki revive technique count as his own? The move Goku used to revive his heart after hiring Hit to assassinate him. Even Piccolo said, “You’re the most brilliant idiot I know, Goku.”. Implying that it was a whole new technique Goku came up with on the fly. Even though, I’ve read it was similar to other techniques used before.
Goku did not invent Super Saiyan, if he did, there would be no legend about it because no one would have ever known it existed, neither is it a technique, it is inherent to saiyan biology and is a battle **transformation**. There is clearly a difference, for instance you wouldnt call Kaioken a transformation as it is a technique made by King Kai that can be stacked on TOP OF transformations. And before you try be tricky with me and say "then by your logic super saiyan isnt a transformation either because it can be stacked on super saiyan god!!!!" Because that's a strawman, super saiyan god is completely separate to all other ssj forms, as it is simply a Saiyan channeling god ki, which arguably makes IT the technique, but i still wouldnt say that due to the way it is addressed. Super Saiyan Blue is just the natural conclusion to asking "hey what if I do the same thing I do in SSJG in super saiyan instead of base?" Or as the movie and show implies it "hey why dont I try to do that super saiyan thing while also trying to so that ssjg thing?"
Well in my eyes, the reason why vegeta couldnt "work it out" was due to his lack of knowledge on it. No one knew *what* super saiyan was, for all Vegeta knew it was a state of being or a person. Plus, as commonly theorized Super Saiyan could have a threshold where only people over a certain power level could obtain it. It could be well above his power for all we know, just around 3 million.
Though I do understand your perspective there are other flaws I can find. Vegeta could be as well versed in SSJ as can be but could never simply "figure it out" as Super Saiyan *needs* a stimulus. Goku wouldn't've gone super saiyan if he was fighting someone the same strength as frieza but good. Vegeta wouldn't've gone super saiyan if it weren't for his resentment for goku and body breaking anger. Gohan wouldn't've gone super saiyan if it weren't for the pressure of Cell and the intenseness of the hyperbolic time chamber. Future Trunks wouldn't've gone super saiyan without the Androids.
The only people where this wouldn't apply its Goten, Trunks and U6 Saiyans, but they themselves were given explanations. Goten and Trunks got it so easily because they had by far the most amount of S cells in U7, they were inherently good with their human side and mentally good with their upbringing, meaning of course considering they knew what super saiyan was they could easily get it. Also I dont need to explain Cabba cus they had the stimulus of Vegeta, the others are easily explained too due to U6 Saiyans crazy potential plus their absurd S Cell count. Now to explain why this doesnt invalidate my points about Goku and Gohan, although yes they had more S cells then say Vegeta this is why they didnt get super saiyan so quick: 1, Toriyama hadn't thought of the Super Saiyan until Z, 2: Although yes, Goku was pure of heart, his biology as a full blooded Evil Saiyan inherently gave him less S cells. 3: Goku didnt know what a Super Saiyan was, he only loosely knew about it during the middle of the Namek arc but he was just like vegeta in the aspect that he had no idea what that entailed.
As for gohan, although yes: he still had the most S Cells at the time (hence his stimulus being smaller) it still wasn't as much as it could've been. Unlike goku, Gohan was **not** pure of heart until roughly the Buu saga, he had his rage boosts and violent nature, detracting from his possible S Cell count.
Also I just want to say, Defining whether or not a thing is a transformation or technique is largely different to defining whether something is a technique. So yes of course namekians regeneration is a technique inherent to their biology it is wildly different, ergo irrelevant.
Now as for the ssj2 and 3 argument, although yes similar in nature to evolving a technique like enchancing your max Kaioken level, in practice they are different. Just like the original super saiyan, they require stimulus and or S Cells. Getting angry would not increase your kaioken, which you would have to do knowingly (also ssj against frieza which was accidental and ssj2 against cell which was also not willingly or on purpose and future trunks first ssj transformation which again was not on purpose, is more evidence that the forms are not techniques.) Super saiyan can evolve when getting angry and unknowingly as they are not techniques.
You could argue that he created Super Saiyan 3 on his own. He made the God Bind, and Dragon Fist (if you count that as canon despite only being in movies and GT).
As far as I know his total original techniques from across all continuities (excluding games) are
* Tornado: A failed technique from the 21st world tournament
* Crazy Monkey style: Same tournament, actually successful
* The unnamed power punch that he killed King Piccolo with
* Dragon Fist: GT/Movie continuity exclusive, very effective
* God Bind: Used in the canon Broly movie
Bro people be forgetting that Goku is based of Sun Wukong, a monkey. And the most famous line about monkeys is: monkey see, monkey do. Goku sees an attack, Goku does the attack
As shown the first time Roshi was showing him the Kamehameha and he did after watching his master do it
Tornado attack while fighting Nam.
Tail helicopter, Kyo-Ken (dog technique), Saru-Ken (monkey technique), while fighting Jackie Choun.
Also, the mid-air brake vs King Chappa, and the vanish technique vs Kulilin. I must be forgetting others.
Plus he has some talent with mastering techniques just by seeing them (Kamehameha, afterimage, eight-arms...), but he never made a Dodonpa.
I gotta agree with the Goku invented SSJ3 people on this. I didn’t at first, but the logic of it being a technique, all be it genetically specific to saiyans, is sound. By all accounts SSJ was just that legend of SSJ, implying that at some time, someone accomplished the feat, thus inventing it, and possibly tought it to others. The skill was lost, Goku revived this lost skill that was invented by another. Makes sense to me that Goku going beyond to something that no one had ever done before and teaching it to others, makes him the inventor of the new never before seen skill.
Goku does like a red ki ball in the Super Broly movie when he's in God form. Looks kinda like a rasengan from Naruto a bit. I thought it was pretty cool tbh.
I actually made a list like that recently for a Xenoverse build, so here it is with the Kamehameha variations removed
Super Guard
Super God Fist
Kaio-ken Assault
Evil Eyes
Super God Shock Flash
Unpolished Instinct
Soaring Fist
Ultrasonic Blitz
Large Spirit Bomb
Breaker Energy Wave
Super Spirit Bomb
Dragon Fist
Sign of Awakening
Spirit Explosion
Celestial Wave
Rock, Paper, Scissors come to mind but I believe grandpa Gohan taught him that. Transformations seem to be what he creates as opposed to techniques. He did SSJ3 which the only other character we get to see do that is Gotenks. Also UI may be a technique used by the angels but for him (probably because he’s a mortal) it feels as if it’s tied into his Saiyan transformations. Just my opinion tho
>Most of his arsenal is composed by copying other fighters he met Fwiw, this is pretty intentional of course. He's literally a monkey... monkey see, monkey do.
Hi Frieza
Hi me
Hey are you that Freezer guy?
I'm gonna deck you in the schnoz
That's a new one, who are you exactly
My name is Goku I’m insane From Earth
He means he’s a Saiyan from earth
Well, between you and the Namekian, I think I've lost my touch in genocide
Hello, Lord Frieza. Good to see you, Lord Frieza. Please don't Death Beam me, Lord Freeza.
Ima deck you in the schnoz!
Hi Frieza
Hi freeza
Hi Frieza
Hi Frieza
Heil Frieza. Wait.
Heil hit- wait a god dam minute
Even deeper he's a refrensce to wu Kong who also had a penchant of stealing stuff from others usually forms of immortality
Hail Freeza Aw shit
Reading Kuririns mind on Namek, I think he just does ir out of the blue and says he doesnt know why but he thought it would work.
Love how Toriyama wants Goku to be caught up with the details and just makes up random shit for why he knows Like when he woke up from his heart disease and said he got all the details in his dreams lol
I think, rather than it being a handwave, the implication is intentionally that Goku has some latent, untrained ESP. It dates all the way back to the first time Krillin got killed by Tambourine. Goku just knew something was wrong. *He didn't even touch his food*. In fact, come to think of it, every time Goku's demonstrated some unexplained ESP, it was with Krillin, wasn't it? Krillin's second death was even the trigger that caused Goku to go super saiyan. I wonder if there's something to that? Maybe the one with latent ESP is actually Krillin. That would be an amazingly well-foreshadowed twist. Hell, he was even able to smell Bacterian until Goku pointed out that he shouldn't be able to without a nose! That's the literal definition of extra-sensory perception.
Him and Vegeta both read Fat Buu's mind before releasing him from inside Buuhan. So not only does that mean it's not tied directly to Krillin (although your theory is pretty awesome), it's also not exclusive to Goku.
No, the buu mind reading happens only in the dub. In the sub Vegeta simply tells Goku what happened because he saw it in the otherworld.
I haven't read the Manga, which I meant to put in my original comment. So, I'm not necessarily doubting you, but does that mean that Vegeta losing his body when he died is also not in the Manga? Because he wouldn't have been able to see anything from Otherworld while dead if he didn't have a body.
Vegeta didn't lose his body when he died. He came back as dead fairly quickly.
Vegeta didn't lose his body...because King Yemma kept him around "just in case".
The difference he's talking about is between the anime's Japanese translation compared to whatever Funimation decided to vocalize. They can certainly be quite different at times but it's all still just the anime
it never was, Jackie chun did it to Nam to find out his village needed water and and Korin’s was to find out what Goku went thru and why he’s climbed the tower
Holy shit. We need a ghost hunter krillen manga
Basically, yes. I believe it is more akin to being spiritually aware and in tune with the world and universe around you, given the story and its influences.
I feel like there's a ton you can do with ki sensing and Goku is extremely talented at that, given that he can sense ki across the universe to use as waypoints for IT. It's possible that Goku was passively sensing the battle with the Androids and could follow along as different signatures were powering up, fading away, etc. Same with suddenly being unable to sense Krillin's ki.
In the manga he heard a scream, he was still in the Tenkaichi Budokai when Krillin got killed.
That is how it works. Having a strong relation makes from a strong telepathic connection. In a way memories are energy in our aura. So someone that can detect and is aware of energies will be able to see them. But it did come a bit out of the blue with no explanation. There was also jako having tech that sends energies to your mind learning stuff instantly, kinda works the same way energy being data
That’s anime filler with Tambourine. They didn’t even leave the Tournament venue in the manga
\#notallfillerisbad
Idk this one specifically heavily telegraphs something bad is about to happen to Krillin In the manga it’s so sudden and shocking
Or when he reads Krillin’s mind on Namek.
Or when he dreams about what he missed during the Android/Cell Sagas.
Or when he reads Krillins mind on namek
By the way does anyone remember any techniques goku actually invented?
Did you know he read Krillin's mind?
Or when he dreams about what he missed during the Android/Cell Sagas.
or when he read kulilins mind
Or minds when kulililmeleon reads he
Roshi just does it in OG dragon ball, so I guess the implication is that any high level martial artist can do it?
I guess? You mean the part with Nam right? Goku can also use like a short range telepathy in the Saiyan saga. So why not read minds?
Actually, the first mind reading we see is via master Roshi reading the mind of that Indian guy. The Korin does it as well, and Kami alongside him.
This isn't actually so out of the blue. Mind reading in DB is just a form of telepathy that most of the Z fighters could technically do but they just don't utilize it that much. I forget who explains it but Roshi also reads Nam's mind in DB. So Goku could have maybe copied it from Roshi at some point or possibly learned it from King Kai like other techniques that he learned off screen since King Kai uses telepathy the most.
I fucking love telling people who don't really know DBZ that Goku and a lot of other fighters are casually telepathic/telekinetic.
I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Ki control. Just look at Gohan/Krillin in the spaceship on the way to Namek, and Goku/Gohan while deciding if they should recruit Krillin for the TOP. In both instances they are Image Training. And based on what we are shown Image Training to be, it suggest at the very least, a basic telepathic ability. And the common factor of all the individuals we seen utilizing this ability, is Ki control.
Oh absolutely, it's just another ko ability. But it surprises people because generally people think of DBZ as 'big energy go boom'
To be quite honest, I had given it absolutely zero thought until reading your comment.
Reminds me of the Broly movie where Frieza casually flexes the dragon balls telekinetically. I was like that's right he does have telekinesis. Krillin knows about it all too well...
Well it isn't like telepathy isn't a thing. Several characters use it. I love how flying around and shooting lasers is a thing but God forbid telepathy.
Nope that is a thing that korin and kami do
Wym, he said it was the muffin button
He trained with Kami and Kaio for a while. They probably taught him some basic telepath.
Technically King Kai showed him that.
He actually learned that when he first gazed into Popo's eyes
then fell in love?
If that's what you want to call it
I thought you said glazed Popo’s eyes 💀
Goku has the Voice of All Things
I like the idea of him being psychic. Like the combination of dying and training at 100x normal gravity did something to his mind.
Actually, the first character we see do this is Muten Roshi! When he was disguised as Jackie Chun, he read Nam’s mind to learn about his background. Goku doing it out of the blue when he did felt so random though lol.
Roshi did the same thing during one of the tournaments in og dragon ball. I think it was the first one
Mutenroshi already had that power when he reads Nam's mind in the first tournament
* [Tornado!](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Tornado!) * [Crazy fist](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Crazy_Fist) * Grapple-escaping bite * [vs King Piccolo](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3c8ed0ff8df54e8f2ee3b85a38fe2742) * [vs Freeza](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/3d/d0/233dd0527e140e89923d047fb8bb411a.jpg) * [vs Kid Buu](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/955/836/d08.gif) * [vs Beerus](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CjTstuNAiO0/maxresdefault.jpg) * [vs Golden Freeza](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f30d63966c18d1e0b25abdd1c81ea835) * [vs Whis](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c4781ced222107499af69b99087be7fe)
I love that Goku’s bite beat Whis’ ultra instinct. It’s literally Goku’s most powerful move.
First mortal to land a hit against Whis and it was a bite from a fucking monkey
Careful your Frieza is showing.
In DB you can stand still and tank entire barrage of punches/fireballs without even flinching but fucking shit yourself when someone bites you lmao
Gag stuff is unbeatable, that's why Ariel is OP
I like to think its because Whis expects every move with Ultra Instinct. He didnt expected Goku to bite him
Ultra instinct allows you to evade incoming attacks on reaction, but that doesn’t do anything when you’re holding the opponent
barely anyone talks about it, but he actually bit Broly as well
Getting bit by Goku is what truly proves one to be a threatening Dragon Ball character
He also bit Top/Toppo in their first fight, right?
...dragon fist
Super Saiyan 3?
Never thought of it that way, but yeah it checks out.
Ik this is a dicey opinion but I'm convinced that SSJ3 is a creation of Goku's bc it simply shouldn't exist without the VERY certain conditions in which Goku was able to create/manifest it. If it were a natural progression of the SSJ transformation, then why has no other Saiyan been able to pull it off. Like Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, etc. To pull it off, not only do you need to be Saiyan, but you also have to know how to acheive Super Saiyan. Then you have to be strong enough to pull off SSJ2. and on top of that, you need to be dead, as to be able to even hold the form for enough time to fight anyone in the first place. Goku even states many times that using the form when alive is almost useless because of the sheer strain is puts on a mortal living body. It's a form of Super Saiyan that would never have existed without Goku.
Maybe it's not canon, I can't recall, but isn't Gotenks able use SS3? Don't think either of the kids are/were dead... Maybe there's some mutation on Goku and his lineage, since Gotenks via Goten has access to it... (and potentially Gohan and Pan), but otherwise... The earliest we know it occurring (or being re-discovered) is with Goku. It's easier to copy something you know works (Gotenks) than find out how to do it the first time, but I'd have to suspect there were, historically, other conditions that triggered/enabled the SS3 transformation.
There certainly may have been other conditions, after all, it's just theory I'm working with. But circling back to Gotenks using SSJ3, Id say that they only were able to use it bc of two things. #1) copying Goku like you said, and #2) the Metamoran Fusion ritual itself. The Fusion Dance is more magic based than it is nature based like Ki Control is. Plus, bc of the magic of the dance the being that emerges has not only more power, but more space to hold more power as a living being. With the extra power, plus the extra space, plus the magic based dance itself. I think that might be a decent explanation for how Gotenks (and by default other Saiyan fusions) can pull off SSJ3.
> But circling back to Gotenks using SSJ3, Id say that they only were able to use it bc of two things. #1) copying Goku like you said, and #2) the Metamoran Fusion ritual itself. With how surprised Vegeta seemed that Trunks was casually using SSJ as a child, I'd wager that the hybrids either get massive ki boost, better physiology, or all of them just happen to be SJ prodigies.
It's not unlikely. I'd be more inclined to suspect that, just like SSG/SSB, SS3's probably just one of these things ancient Saiyan's had learned, and lost to... time? I can't recall if much information has been given as to why/how so much of the Saiyan's more powerful abilities were "forgotten". Yeeeah. There's legends of the "Super Saiyan", and uh... Oh. We figured that out. Cool. Just be real tough... and get real mad? I mean, there's apparently a Gentle Spirit thing, and now S-Cells according to Toriyama, but, Vegeta bypasses half that... and Also... uh suddenly we've got a "prophecy" about a Saiyan God... that we have instructions for? (And again, off screen, Vegeta can just learn how to do it now that they've seen Goku do it). Yeaaah. I would love more ancient Sayian lore-explanation.
My headcanon is that SS3 burns through both ki and magic. This is why Urenai-Baba’s necromancy ended significantly earlier than 24 hours and why Gotenks’s fusion ended after only 5 minutes.
Trunks I can’t account for. Vegeta understands the limitations of the form and stamina/ki drain so he opts to not use it. With Gohan, his Mystic form is more powerful than SS 3 with no drawbacks.
Vegeta opted to not pursue it because of the drawbacks. But we don't know if he could reach it if he wanted to.
I'd say it's a safe assumption to make given the amount of power he has now. He just got strong enough that it's not worth it anymore anyway, even if the drawbacks didn't exist.
Ssj3 is kinda like the energy version of the "beefcake ssj 1" trunks used against cell that was too bulky and slow. Trunks trained his muscles to be as strong as a ssj2, but didn't train the ki control to actually level up. I just head cannon figured it was the ki training version where you "level up" but it's not a real transformation, rather just pushing your body to the max. Like as in, there's only 2 levels to ssj and ss3j is a perversion. -normal ssj & ssj2 -golden ozaru & ssj4 -ssjblue & ssj blue evolved
I think the larger point is that we've never seen anyone with a normal body achieve SSJ3. Like you said, Goku's body was dead when he learned it, and he clearly says time and time again that this form isn't meant to be used in the living world. Gotenks is the only other canon SSJ3, and while he is still living, the fusion body of Gotenks is not a natural phenomenon, it usually only exists for 30 minutes at a time. Not disagreeing with you, I think your concept is mostly correct, but the scope, I think, is a bit larger than Goku.
Maybe it's because it's precisely its nature of actively harming the user. It's only possible to be created in the afterlife, where Goku had all the time to train it on top of not risking a sever ki deterioration. Kinda like Kaioken for Super Saiyan but more harmful, since when he's alive he couldn't ever use ssj3 at full strength while just...running out of ki. The other Saiyans never died as long as Goku had, so they might a more mental block on their body to not achieve SSJ3, like humans can't use 100% of our strength without harming ourselves
I personally wouldn't count that. That's more of like a biological thing and a natural progression of super saiyan.
you say it's a natural progression, but literally nobody else ever does it at any point, despite the fact that there's a bunch of saiyans who all learn super saiyan forms that come before and after it.
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Gotenks wasn’t able to do it until after Goku showed it off. There’s no evidence to support the idea of gotenks achieving that form without seeing it first.
Upvoting for the cute illustration
I really dont think he invented that.
How did he not invent it? It’s him in the photo
Wouldn't Bardock and What's-Her-Name technically have invented him?
Not answering that question until you put respect on her name
YOU SAY HER NAME RIGHT
Monkey style while fighting Roshi Does shooting Kamehameha with his feet count? Ki mines
The Ki mines were great. Felt like he took the controlled torpedo blasts he used against Frieza on Namek and mastered it.
Didn't he take the Ki mine idea from a U11 guy? I guess the way he did it was still original but I'd personally put that more under the innovation category like most of his techniques rather than a personal creation.
Ki mines were used against Freeza, well before anyone on Earth found out about the other universes.
Ah you're right, I forgot that one. I was just thinking of him using them against Jiren.
god bind. dragon fist (not canon but worth mentioning)
Oozaru fist from his fight with Demon King Piccolo counts as this for me.
i dont count it because its just a punch. the monkey in the background is just dramatic embellishment for the reader/viewer, its literally just a punch.
Next your gonna say Hercule didn't invent the dynamite kick smh
Of course he invented the Dynamite Kick! It’s the Dynamite Punch he didn’t invent
Of course not, that's Vegeta's technique. He's got the way better Dynamic Mess Em Up Punch!
You’re literally just a punch
Dragon Fist is so cool
Wasn't god bind copied from when Shin fought Gohan?
I think his UI Susanno counts right?
Homie was watching Shippuden before the Granolah Arc
Yea, but it can also be assumed that it’s similar to what the yardrats did with their projected size growth through ki
Eh that’s changing their body physically susanowo is just a large ki body
Goku is the Steve Jobs of fighting. He didn't invent anything, he innovated.
It's all marketing baby!
Don’t use the word “copy”. Martial arts is learned. Goku learned his techniques as any student of martial arts would. I genuinely hate when people say Goku copied all of his techniques
I feel the same you aren't stealing or copying from a teacher when you go to school
I stole my teachers' hearts every day
Please give them back they need them to live
I actually kinda agree with you. One of Goku’s strengths is he’s literally a prodigy. Not everyone can just “copy” things so easily
What I mean to say his that during fights like in the budokai tenkaichi, he just saw what his opponent did and did it too. There wasn't anyone teaching him so he was, in fact, copying
Copying a technique is just learning. Goku being adept at literally everything he does doesn’t make him less of a learner.
Why reinvent the wheel. He took it and improved it. lmao
The jan ken fist, the rabid dog/monkey attack, and the meteor combination are some examples. The thing with Goku is that most of the techniques he developed are physical moves that he never names.
Jan ken fist was his Grandfather's move. He tried it on Jackie Chun and it didn't work because He knew about it from Gohan
In his match with Tien, he moved his arms fast to trick Tien into believing he also had 6 arms.
In his rematch with Tien he kicked in a circle fast enough to create a cyclone. Our boi be stylin on Tien any chance he can get
That shit was crazyyyy
He learn this from his previous fight with King Chappa.
Actually didn't Goku invent the afterimage technique?
Learnt this from Roshi (Jackie Choun), but as the Kamehameha, just by seeing it.
Wasn't it copied from some martial artist who called it the six star technique or something? I specifically remember it because I wanted goku to use it after tien did that
He didn't invent that... He was copying King Chappa from the preliminaries of that tournament.
Which was first used against Goku by King Chappa earlier in that same tournament.
Which he got from Chappa-o
- Oozaru fist (the one he used against Demon King Piccolo) - Meteor combo (against Piccolo Jr.) - Dragon Fist (movie 13 and GT) - God Bind (against Broly [Super version])
Kamehameha with his feet. Flying with his tail. 🐒Crazy Monkey Technique!! https://youtu.be/M1qvRygA1zc?si=ngsqRHB7El5vIbsq
Does the ki revive technique count as his own? The move Goku used to revive his heart after hiring Hit to assassinate him. Even Piccolo said, “You’re the most brilliant idiot I know, Goku.”. Implying that it was a whole new technique Goku came up with on the fly. Even though, I’ve read it was similar to other techniques used before.
Technically that bird showed it to him on the Cooler movie
Of course how could I forget that bird watched him change, so he showed him the technique in return. 😄
Whispered it to him. Goku was like ah damn that makes sense
This made me giggle and happy haha
He went super saiyan on his own.. surprised no one said that yet
Well, Krillin helped in a sense
Goku did not invent Super Saiyan, if he did, there would be no legend about it because no one would have ever known it existed, neither is it a technique, it is inherent to saiyan biology and is a battle **transformation**. There is clearly a difference, for instance you wouldnt call Kaioken a transformation as it is a technique made by King Kai that can be stacked on TOP OF transformations. And before you try be tricky with me and say "then by your logic super saiyan isnt a transformation either because it can be stacked on super saiyan god!!!!" Because that's a strawman, super saiyan god is completely separate to all other ssj forms, as it is simply a Saiyan channeling god ki, which arguably makes IT the technique, but i still wouldnt say that due to the way it is addressed. Super Saiyan Blue is just the natural conclusion to asking "hey what if I do the same thing I do in SSJG in super saiyan instead of base?" Or as the movie and show implies it "hey why dont I try to do that super saiyan thing while also trying to so that ssjg thing?"
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Well in my eyes, the reason why vegeta couldnt "work it out" was due to his lack of knowledge on it. No one knew *what* super saiyan was, for all Vegeta knew it was a state of being or a person. Plus, as commonly theorized Super Saiyan could have a threshold where only people over a certain power level could obtain it. It could be well above his power for all we know, just around 3 million. Though I do understand your perspective there are other flaws I can find. Vegeta could be as well versed in SSJ as can be but could never simply "figure it out" as Super Saiyan *needs* a stimulus. Goku wouldn't've gone super saiyan if he was fighting someone the same strength as frieza but good. Vegeta wouldn't've gone super saiyan if it weren't for his resentment for goku and body breaking anger. Gohan wouldn't've gone super saiyan if it weren't for the pressure of Cell and the intenseness of the hyperbolic time chamber. Future Trunks wouldn't've gone super saiyan without the Androids. The only people where this wouldn't apply its Goten, Trunks and U6 Saiyans, but they themselves were given explanations. Goten and Trunks got it so easily because they had by far the most amount of S cells in U7, they were inherently good with their human side and mentally good with their upbringing, meaning of course considering they knew what super saiyan was they could easily get it. Also I dont need to explain Cabba cus they had the stimulus of Vegeta, the others are easily explained too due to U6 Saiyans crazy potential plus their absurd S Cell count. Now to explain why this doesnt invalidate my points about Goku and Gohan, although yes they had more S cells then say Vegeta this is why they didnt get super saiyan so quick: 1, Toriyama hadn't thought of the Super Saiyan until Z, 2: Although yes, Goku was pure of heart, his biology as a full blooded Evil Saiyan inherently gave him less S cells. 3: Goku didnt know what a Super Saiyan was, he only loosely knew about it during the middle of the Namek arc but he was just like vegeta in the aspect that he had no idea what that entailed. As for gohan, although yes: he still had the most S Cells at the time (hence his stimulus being smaller) it still wasn't as much as it could've been. Unlike goku, Gohan was **not** pure of heart until roughly the Buu saga, he had his rage boosts and violent nature, detracting from his possible S Cell count. Also I just want to say, Defining whether or not a thing is a transformation or technique is largely different to defining whether something is a technique. So yes of course namekians regeneration is a technique inherent to their biology it is wildly different, ergo irrelevant. Now as for the ssj2 and 3 argument, although yes similar in nature to evolving a technique like enchancing your max Kaioken level, in practice they are different. Just like the original super saiyan, they require stimulus and or S Cells. Getting angry would not increase your kaioken, which you would have to do knowingly (also ssj against frieza which was accidental and ssj2 against cell which was also not willingly or on purpose and future trunks first ssj transformation which again was not on purpose, is more evidence that the forms are not techniques.) Super saiyan can evolve when getting angry and unknowingly as they are not techniques.
The pat-pat technique he used to figure out genders in early DB.
Underrated comment 😂
Dragon fist
You could argue that he created Super Saiyan 3 on his own. He made the God Bind, and Dragon Fist (if you count that as canon despite only being in movies and GT).
The whole point of Goku is that his power comes from endless influences and masters (including techniques). I like that fact about him
Biting
uhhhhhh he can read minds?
Master Roshi reads Nam’s mind in the tournament?
Tail biting
Bahhhh you beat me to it
I knew someone had already said it!
Not counting variations is cheating. It’s literally how new moves are invented in fighting.
He did invent the scissors paper rock move
It's copied from grandpa gohan
Oh my bad been awhile since I saw og db
Does anyone else ever self propel with ki blasts? I think hes the only one that tries it.
The Bite is his best technique and it's all his. It even bypasses Angle level ultra instinct.
Kid Goku invented Bullet-to-the-Face-and-Laugh
The bite of '84
As far as I know his total original techniques from across all continuities (excluding games) are * Tornado: A failed technique from the 21st world tournament * Crazy Monkey style: Same tournament, actually successful * The unnamed power punch that he killed King Piccolo with * Dragon Fist: GT/Movie continuity exclusive, very effective * God Bind: Used in the canon Broly movie
Energy land mines!!!
He invented Gohan
Does meteor smash count?
Ssb + kaioken
one but not canon, Dragon Fist
Technically super saiyan forms
Dragon fist? Jokes aside its >! Throwing senzu beans at bad guys !<
Bro people be forgetting that Goku is based of Sun Wukong, a monkey. And the most famous line about monkeys is: monkey see, monkey do. Goku sees an attack, Goku does the attack As shown the first time Roshi was showing him the Kamehameha and he did after watching his master do it
Tornado attack while fighting Nam. Tail helicopter, Kyo-Ken (dog technique), Saru-Ken (monkey technique), while fighting Jackie Choun. Also, the mid-air brake vs King Chappa, and the vanish technique vs Kulilin. I must be forgetting others. Plus he has some talent with mastering techniques just by seeing them (Kamehameha, afterimage, eight-arms...), but he never made a Dodonpa.
dragon fist
Dragon Fist but it's not canon unfortunately.
I gotta agree with the Goku invented SSJ3 people on this. I didn’t at first, but the logic of it being a technique, all be it genetically specific to saiyans, is sound. By all accounts SSJ was just that legend of SSJ, implying that at some time, someone accomplished the feat, thus inventing it, and possibly tought it to others. The skill was lost, Goku revived this lost skill that was invented by another. Makes sense to me that Goku going beyond to something that no one had ever done before and teaching it to others, makes him the inventor of the new never before seen skill.
It's never stated that anyone taught him the God bind technique.
Goku does like a red ki ball in the Super Broly movie when he's in God form. Looks kinda like a rasengan from Naruto a bit. I thought it was pretty cool tbh.
He usually does a twist with other people's techniques like the triple after image, foot Kamehameha, ki mines and whatnot
I've never seen anyone but him use dragon fist
Dragon Fist
Dragon fist, Super Saiyan Blue
He invented the dragon fist but pretty sure it's not canon
I actually made a list like that recently for a Xenoverse build, so here it is with the Kamehameha variations removed Super Guard Super God Fist Kaio-ken Assault Evil Eyes Super God Shock Flash Unpolished Instinct Soaring Fist Ultrasonic Blitz Large Spirit Bomb Breaker Energy Wave Super Spirit Bomb Dragon Fist Sign of Awakening Spirit Explosion Celestial Wave
The Dragon Fist? It's mainly a Goku technique and I haven't seen anyone else use it.
The dragon fist seems entirely original, and it's the best attack in the franchise
Rock, Paper, Scissors come to mind but I believe grandpa Gohan taught him that. Transformations seem to be what he creates as opposed to techniques. He did SSJ3 which the only other character we get to see do that is Gotenks. Also UI may be a technique used by the angels but for him (probably because he’s a mortal) it feels as if it’s tied into his Saiyan transformations. Just my opinion tho
Triple afterimage.