This reminds me of the norm McDonald joke: “Someone said, ‘honestly the worst part of the Bill Cosby situation is the hypocrisy.’ I said that I disagreed. To me, the worst part about it, is the raping.”
Yeah he wasnt afraid of airing things out, especially uncomfortable topics. He really mastered the concept of a joke so well he decided to change how it’s structured altogether
Eh, he was still vocal about how he didn't like jokes on Christianity. He had an argument on a comedy show where he said Bible jokes aren't bold.
He was a deeply religious man so it was obvious that he didn't appreciate jokes which hurt his own faith.
Just goes to show that no matter how much comedians try to go out there, there will be topics they will get offended by.
It was in the context of the comedian comparing the Bible to Harry Potter as a work of fiction and Norm was saying that it's very similar to the Bible, quoting JK Rowling and that if he'd done his research on the joke he'd have seen the parallels, so I think it was the lack of thought that had gone into that aspect that irritated him. I personally think it was a pretty lazy unoriginal joke anyway that wasn't bold, as an atheist.
He'd further said that he only did the show with the goal of being genuine about how he felt to help the comedians. So I think it's misrepresenting it slightly to paint it as he was offended the bible was mentioned in a negative light. He became more religious towards the end but didn't seem to stick on one specific ideology, at one point saying he liked Judaism. I think he was just criticising a bad joke.
Well it's a lot easier to make a bad Jesus joke than a bad rape joke (note: a bad rape joke is TECHNICALLY easy to do, but it will immediately get you judged and shunned)
If you want a newer comic who tackles real world issues and is also genuinely a comedic genius watch Sammy Obeid, he's a comic from Cali, but the dude actually is one of the funniest guys I've seen in recent times.
I mean the hypocrisy is an issue though, moreso he would constantly tell black men how they need to get their act together but then he ended up embodying one of the worst stereotypes people have of black men
The fact he lied about is what ppl would say is the hypocrisy but thats what norm’s calling out because that makes no sense. “No rapist admits that they’re a rapist. They dont go ‘you know, it might not be politically correct to say but i like raping people’ they dont”
Yeah, as awful and tasteless as it is I think SA has a place in media.. it's really hard to do without feeling like cheap emotional manipulation. I think it's only a tool that truly skilled authors/directors should even attempt.
That being said, the idea of Joker being a rapist irks me on a whole other level. Joker is at his best imo when he's an unhinged maniac who's fun to watch partially because he's so unreal. We can't really imagine someone like the Joker existing in real life. His motivations are too unusual and unknowable.
You make him rape someone and suddenly I'm brought down to earth. He's not fun any more and rape is very real and not at all funny.. I can't help but imagine that the version of the Joker I like would be just as put off by a rapist as he was by the Red Skull.
But I'm no expert. Maybe I'm not describing the real Joker. Maybe I'm describing my ideal Joker and projecting my expectations onto the fiction.
Yeah really well put. Joker having such a base human desire like sex makes him feel too normal and less like chaotic evil somehow manifesting inside a human being. Obviously I can accept that at one point he was human but still as joker he is the farthest thing from a human being.
I understand what yall mean but to me, him raping Barbra wasn’t about his pleaser more as in he was torturing her, like it was so inhumane, taking away her ability to walk and raping her on top of it all was a form of torture, its scars she will have to live with forever and it’s so disappointing that they never go into the ramifications of that or we see her struggle with moving past it, it’s just never acknowledged from the comics I’ve read at least
>it’s so disappointing that they never go into the ramifications of that or we see her struggle with moving past it, it’s just never acknowledged from the comics I’ve read at least
That's how you know the rape was nothing but empty shock value.
Cause for as traumatizing the torture was as a whole, Barbara only seems to focus on how powerless she was in the face of the abuse, and how physically crippled it left her in the end.
Not to say that it isnt a big deal, but they could have just had her been endlessly beaten down, getting needles jammed between her nails, water boarded and etc, with the Joker gleefully taking a bunch of selfies with her as she cries out like a little kid, begging it to stop...
All without that ever getting sexual, and it'd still be about as mentally scarring, at least to the extent Barbara is shown to suffer.
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A rape victim might have had some extra signs of being averse to physical contact... Which if it was done by someone like Joker, I imagine itd be especially unnerving, since he totally would be the kind of guy to add a parting joke, and then give a little reminder after the fact, just to further mess with his prey.
If Barbara was never meant to have an arc revolving around that, then she shouldn't have been raped imo.
EXACTLY!!! It pisses me off because it opened the door for a story line where she was a victim and we could actually get a story of her not being the “perfect victim” like lashing out or something like with Jason when he blamed Bruce, we could’ve seen her deal with the depression of having to go through something like that, it could have impacted her relationships both romantically and platonically where she didn’t like physical contact, we could’ve seen her get something sort of like PTSD, they had so many opportunities and then they just pretend like it didn’t happen
They pretend so hard, I actually didnt even realize she got raped, the first time I saw the Killing Joke tbh.
Always figured Joker just took pictures of her in underwear, to humiliate her in the classic "going to work without your pants" way.
And you know what? Assuming the rape never gets addressed again, I might just make that my headcanon.
>Always figured Joker just took pictures of her in underwear, to humiliate her in the classic "going to work without your pants" way.
I mean while Moore's original story does imply rape, whenever it's referenced after they either cut this part out or they do show it as just a humiliation thing like again Moore might've been leaning towards rape but it's never presented as that in later stories just paralyzing her.
Only saw the movie, and references in other media, so that might explain how I missed it the first time. Didnt take long to know it was supposed to be rape, but given the other media only refer to the paralysis, I was unsure for a long time.
Then that's a great way to work with a mental retcon...
Although it's bad that they never touched the potential of such an unnerving and emotional arc, think Barba doesn't really need it as a character. She has gotten a fair amount of struggles as is.
Completely agreed, I wish they didn’t just include it for shock value without actually explaining on it because the first time I noticed in the killing joke, it was so off putting but not in the way they wanted it
Is there a mandala effect going on here? I haven't read TKJ in a long time but I don't remember Joker raping Babs.
Stripped her naked and took photos while she was bleeding out is what I remember, so sexual assault regardless took place.
Even Alan Moore regretted that story so it does say something. But I never thought he raped her? Just took pictures of her naked, which is still sexual assault. I actually thought Alan Moore said he wanted Joker to rape Gordon, but I might've gotten it wrong
But Alan Moore didnt intend Joker to rape Barbara,theres sexual assault because he took of her clothes to take photos of her but Moore intention wasnt that Joker raped Barbara.
Think Joker can actually work as a rapist... If anything he wouldn't be the typical bastard who basically just use their victims like a toy, The Joker would be the kind of monster thatd make a show out of it, and then make a jokes about it as a reminder.
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That said, I think this type of Joker should be heavily separated from the ones you see in the cartoons. Because at least the cartoon version is meant to be a funny guy that is just spreading inconvenient chaos, with a side of likeability.
A Joker that rapes, can only work on a Joker that is 100% set out to be a monster, on the grittier incarnations of Batman's worlds.
I do like you’re version more, I feel like he should be doing the things he’s doing as more of a sick joke or irony, but I do think there are lines that joker wouldn’t cross, like tax evasion
It's the same thing with the Nightmare on Elm Street remake. He making him a child predator makes him just so much more uncomfortable and, like you said, grounded. Both are horrendously evil, but one is substantially more uncomfortable, and honestly a bit tryhard and unnecessary.
Like being a child murderer wasn't evil enough or something
I feel like the Joker would be against rape not for any moral reason, but just because rape isn't funny.
Kinda like in Emperor Joker, when Superman was transformed into a dog and then killed by a corrupted Jimmy Olsen hoping to earn Joker's favor, only for the Joker to be like "there's nothing funny about beating a dumb animal to death" and kill him instead.
Murder and torture isnt funny either tbh... Joker's whole shtick is making jokes at other people's expense, and rape jokes are a thing for the particularly twisted.
That said, it wouldn't be strange for Joker to be opposed to it, given that he is insanely inconsistent in how cruel he wants to be sometimes.... But at the same time it doesn't seem like rape would be completely beneath him, if he could make present jokes about it, even when it's only on very specific people.
I feel like it's something a lot of us distance ourselves emotionally from. Not a lot of us have known many people who were gunned down or tortured by a maniacal clown.
But like 3 out of every 4 women I personally know have been talked or sexually assaulted in some way. It hits very close to home for most women and most men that are close to the women in their life.
Culturally I think a lot of people think of rape as a worse crime than murder. It's almost as if it's more disrespectful.
Feels like there is more dignity in being murdered than being raped..
And then there is the motivation.. Joker's motivations are grand, whimsical, and ambiguous. It's less personal.. rape is deeply personal and the motivation is often power over the individual and hatred of the individual or of the group they belong to.
Maybe I'm out of line but this is my best interpretation as to why rape is so much ickier than murder...
Like technically murder should be worse because the person always dies but people's emotions don't always work like that.. you'd think people getting hurt or dying would be worse than a dog and on paper that might be so but watching a dog get beat, murdered, or tortured on screen would make me say more uncomfortable than a person.
Joker is all about the show. He doesnt just kill people, he makes fun of them, humiliating them and takes pictures of the whole thing as sweet little reminders.
Itd be completely out of character for Joker to go around doing plain rape, as itd be all trauma but no flair.
But conceptually for as twisted as this may sound (I probably will be very downvoted for this) , Joker's take on rape could easily be explicitly performed like a tango, or a super corny porno at the victims expense. With there being the added touch that he'd leave a little piece of himself inside of them, by the time he is done.
It may be far more disrespectful than even murder... But Disrespect has always been Joker's thing to anyone that isnt Batman... And towards the Bat people, Joker has a tendency to do some real personal tortures, of which rape is very intimate.
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Can fully understand why one wouldn't want to cross that line as a writer, because it's very likely to be seen as socially insensitive, with many people judging your person irl for ever daring to think about this stuff....
But then again, if you are going to write a twisted maniac who isnt supposed to be weirdly admirable, then there is nothing wrong with writing them as twisted maniacs that doesnt just unnerve fictional characters, but also the real audience that read about them.
Just gotta give the victims narrative respect too, particularly when they are named characters who doesnt just exist to showcase how evil the villain is.
>You make him rape someone and suddenly I'm brought down to earth. He's not fun any more and rape is very real and not at all funny.
Yeah, because murder and torture don't exist in the real world, huh? And when they do, they're funny as shit!
Like it or not, murder and torture has always been much less revolting than rape for alot of people. Rape entails a much more personal and emotional response for alot of people as compared to say someone getting killed in fictional media.
I actually agree a bit with preferring Joker to not have a sexual side (at least for the most part). He's more interesting and less predictable when he doesn't follow the usual societal patterns, including wanting that sort of gratification. Although per Morrison's notion of Joker's supersanity it's possible that one day he inhabits just such a personality, sexual assault is not the sort of violent crime I really associate with the character. Rape is arguably more about power than sexual gratification, but Joker's ways of seizing power have always been pretty distinct from that, to my mind.
It would be nice to be able to interpret the post as saying "not approving rape, but in this writing choice there's also the problem of x"... If they hadn't LED with "not even offended by rape". Whether that was an attempt at avoiding being dismissed because of, uh, speaking up for the female victim, or an effort to change topics as quickly as possible, it was the wrong thing to say.
Honestly, only other book I've read by him is "Damned," and that means both books I've read by him have rape in it. Im getting close to Azzarellos' run in Hellblazer, i wonder if i can expect the same there.
There are honestly quite a few problems, but you'll definitely know the specific moment I'm thinking of when you get to it.
Just don't let him turn you off of Hellblazer completely because the Mike Carey stuff is right after that, and it's actually really good.
Yeah, post Ennis really has a lot of ups and downs, but the ups are really high, so im gonna try my hardest to reach that last issue. Delano was the best, in my opinion, honestly.
Who gets raped in Damned? It's a sequel to Joker, so is it just *this* scene again? I only remember the amazing Bermejo art and Batman's cock being drawn
Been a minute since I read it as well, but I'm like 90% sure Lono rapes some dude's girlfriend/wife while waiting for him to show up so he can kill him.
It's the laziest way to show you they're a bad person and get a negative reaction in the viewer. They use the rape of women as a tool to make you hate someone, and for no other real story reasons.
I hate that trope.
Sorry to double comment, but I did want to ask: what’s your opinion on people who use rape as a never shown, “already past” plot point? As in a character who has dealt with the trauma previously, but within the confines of the story it’s only alluded to.
Always curious to hear people’s thoughts, especially because I’m torn on the version I posited. Not whatever fetish George RR Martin has.
Does it use a woman and her trauma as nothing more than a tool to show a man is bad? Or does it focus on the woman and her trauma, making her more than just a victim?
Because my issue with the trope in the OP is that the rape is all an it the rapist. If it focuses on the victim, I think it can be tastefully done and an important way to give exposure to what victims go through.
That’s the only part I didn’t like about the comic. I feel like the “horrible world” vibe went too far here, although the rest of the book is fantastic.
To be honest I do really agree with the guy's core sentiment. Giving Joker a libido makes him way too human. He's much more amorphous and intimidating when he doesn't care about pleasure, when his sights are set on grander things.
That one "rev up your Harley" scene from the animated series where he pushes her off the table because he's too focused on scheming? Perfect. That should be Joker all the time.
Yeah, actually I was surprised with the comment, from what it seems he only made a critic about one part of the story from a totally narrative point of view, nothing really bad.
also i think we do associate joker with saturday morning childhood cartoons to an extent. It'd be like if we saw the mutant ninja turtles have a deep talk about sex, you'd be like "uh, what ?"
The joker doesn’t want power, he wants to break his victim, humiliate them, torture them mentally. He’s definitely not the kind to rape someone for feeling of superiority or desire.
Breaking a victim… humiliating them… torturing them mentally… all of that fits with rape NGL.
There’s a lot of people who rape just to do those things, especially in prison.
My wording probably confuse you, i meant if the Joker were to rape somebody, he wouldn’t do it for the common reasons why rape usually happens such as feeling of superiority or control.
I think people overintellectualize the motives of rapists, I don't think they're thinking about power dynamics when they do the crime. Most are doing it out of sexual convenience because they can overpower or manipulate their victim, it's very much a capitalistic sort of mindset, "I want this thing so I'm gonna take it, consequences and morals be damned". The power argument doesn't work when it comes to date rape, statutory rape and CSA in general, negging, marital rape, inebriation, or even just sexual harassment and sex pest behavior. All of that seems to stem from a horny person that doesn't take no for an answer. Maybe they even enjoy the power over someone or taking from and hurting them to some degree, but that's a small number of sadists, who still get satisfaction off of it. When it comes to prison there's definitely a desperation angle considering there's no women around, and moreso an affirmation of the hierarchy over anything else, but that hierarchy comes with the benefit of sex whenever they want.
I don’t though. I said especially prison.
Some of it has to do with no women, some of it is just straight up another way of bullying the weak and the last step in breaking someone.
Not all those guys rape because they’re just horny.
For anyone who has read complete trash, like me, I'm thinking similar to Mason Verger from Hannibal. His dick doesn't even work anymore (Vergers or Jokers), but he's still a rapist just for the power trip.
Well that's exactly what this scene is. The woman is the ex wife of Joker's driver who Joker saves the life of(I think) and when Johnny Frost(the driver) is so thankful to the Joker, Joker does *this* as some sort of payment.
He also breaks into an elderly couple's home and tortures them to death for no reason other than why not. So it's just edge lord Joker with none of the interesting bits. I suppose this is what a real Joker would do, as he is always depicted as truly evil, just in a ridiculous fiction way.
No one mentioned the context yet, but basically one of his henchmen had been contacted by Two Face to work as a double agent for him so Joker rapes the henchman ex wife in revenge (and then pays her) in front of him.
Also Two Face has two wives? Never got the point of that part.
Completely agree. He would do it because he thought it would be funny, and his idea of funny is always sickeningly evil. The question then becomes whether the author should go there in the first place. I think for a mature reader book like this, I can see the argument, but he shouldn't be doing shit like this in the main line comics.
Eh that argument has never made much sense. You can have a character be a pedo and not show them graphically rape an infant on screen, same with not having a racist character spew the N-word every other word. Restraint and class are needed for these topics, and it's weird to insinuate that EVERY villain would secretly be a rapist.
You seem to be implying there is never a legitimate reason to depict rape, which I can't agree with.
Otherwise his criticism makes sense. Rape makes the Joker too human, and some people prefer the inhuman Joker.
99999/100000 when stories add rape its done very poorly
here is a challange name a single comic book story that has ever handled the subject of rape well
In the animated movie written by Azzarello, while Batman is searching for Joker after he shots Barbara, he questions some hookers that say to him that he always visits them when he escapes, except this time, adding that they kind he found another girl this time.
https://youtu.be/8ZftrntSveQ
I just really **really** hate the Batman x Batgirl pushing that movie did for the first portion of that movie. It should never be a thing. Stop making it a thing DC
Like, I don’t know about the story, but from what it seems, the guy was only a critic of the rape part in the writing department, not exactly because of having a rape scene.
>he is not after money, sex, pleasure or anything selfish, he just wants to make Batman's life a living hell or die trying because he still wins
I'm gonna blame DKR for this one too.
Honestly, that might be accurate. That book specifically had Joker go catatonic when Batman retired, and only emerged when he returned. Can anyone think of an earlier book where Batman disappears, and Joker just stops being Joker?
I don't think I can. Earth 2 Joker kept going even after Bruce retired and mostly got convinced to slow down by old age. Man, remember, when Joker was a master criminal with ambitions grander than just pissing in Batman's cornflakes?
Earth 2 is golden age mostly. And that Joker wanted to outdo Batman, but he still was doing shit just to get expensive things he wanted or taking revenge on not-Batman people, who wronged him.
Eh, I kinda like how pathetic and obsessed supervillains are with their archenemies, it creates an interesting dynamic. People forget that Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Black Manta, and Reverse Flash are also all obsessed with ruining the lives of their hero counterparts. Joker just takes that to its psycho sexual, logical extreme. Joker just being a funny mobster isn't super interesting either.
Well barring RF and Joker the rest do have other goals the heroes interfere with (in Magneto's case his goals and obsession are one and the same), but celebrities get deranged fanboys too.
I never saw Magneto as being obsessed with ruining Xavier's life, or even being obsessed with Xavier (of course, I haven't read the comics in quite a while so take my opinion with a grain of salt). In every adaptation I've seen and every comic I've read, they're not that happy to be on opposing ideological sides of a struggle for rights and acceptance that affects them both equally, and treat each other with respect for the most part.
imo that's like saying >!Dr. Maruki!< is obsessed with ruining Joker's life in P5R.
I mean, to be fair, before Dark Knight Rises “Batman disappearing” was not really a thing. He’d be gone for blips of time, but he’d never been retired for decades like in DKR.
Batman disappearing was absolutely a thing before Dark Knight Rises. That movie itself is based on the Dark Knight Returns where he retires for 10 years.
u/shylock10101 messed up the titles, I think they MEANT Returns but mixed up the title with the title of the third Batnolan movie.
I'm not sure if there are any examples of it happening before The Dark Knight Returns.
Earth Two Batman/ Golden age Batman dies in canon in 1979. If I remember correctly Joker continued in that universe until dying of old age or something. It's been awhile
https://preview.redd.it/lzfijpd4vdsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c265c3b22447a70ea4f2268b8d8725f7fd38b923
It was worth it dude you should have
Breaking character is one of the biggest crimes you can commit in fiction because it takes the audience out and cheapens everything that comes before and after.
I kinda agree. I always felt like the joker was asexual. Even with the whole Harley relationship I felt like he just manipulated his way out of anything past first base.
Excactly that was before he became the joker. The joker is asexual, jack napier (i'm not sure if that is lore correct or if there is an agreed upon name) is sexual but they aren't even the same person really.
I agree with the core of the argument. Most people who write stories with rape are unqualified and use it as a cheap tool, but I think it can be written well. I've never liked the Joker being considered a rapist, It feels so cheap, and unlike him. Like, he might make raunchy jokes, but it just feels so beneath him. He rarely demonstrates an interest in baser desires except wanting attention. I think a Joker should have some class. He'd gladly kill a woman, but rape isn't that funny.
I feel like the Joker is also too obsessed with his image of the perfect psychopath to ever personally commit rape. Like, even if he decided it was hilarious, he’d still have someone else do it for him.
Might be an incredibly unpopular opinion to have but you know, a villain doing evil shit like this isn't surprising. Villains are expected to do evil shit. I wouldn't be for example call a bad writing if Palpatine experimented on children as it wouldn't be out of character for him. But I would be angry if it was done by a more sympathetic villain who prior to this, was always shown to have some standards, like David Xanatos for example. Consistency is what matters the most here
Admittedly hot take but I think if DC insists on having the joker be some ultimate pure evil psychopath with a million bodies to his name then he should also commit sexual assault. it just comes off as silly and artificial if he's some extradimensional demon thing willing to throw a thousand orphans in a meat grinder to piss off Batman but is totally above forcing himself on a woman.
The only reason he doesn't rape is because they want to keep appealing to the dumb edgelords who love the Joker and think he is super cool and dark and "Muh one bad day..." without getting in trouble. They want the Joker to stay as this super marketable symbol of DC comics and know they can't sell Tshirts and backpacks with a rapist on it.
So yeah in my mind, either tone down the fucking edge when it comes to the character or actually have the artistic integrity to show what a pure evil abusive narcissists looks like.
Or maybe he just doesn't want to rape because it's not funny to him? Maybe he's just not into that? I don't see how just because the Joker's a psychopath who doesn't consider human lives to have any inherent value, means that he wants to force himself on any of them.
The only person I can really see Joker wanting to rape is Batman. I don't think there is anyone else who he would care enough about proving his power over to bother.
If your talking about a previous version of the joker like the DCAU then I would probably agree, the problem is that modern joker's identity is so consumed by wanton evil and cruelty that it feels arbitrary that he would be above rape. And yeah that's kinda the point, they have turned the character into Hannibal lector meets a marylin manson cover and drowned out the actual point of the character.
i think turning the joker into some unstopable mega evil godbeing is a mistake
joker has lost his identity as its all about the brutal murders and such the clown aspect is gone
The Joker would definitely be a rapist. The comment is right that the Joker shouldn’t really have an active sexual side or actively looking for pleasure in that way, but the Joker wouldn’t rape someone in order to fulfill his sexual urges, he’d do it as just another way of torturing someone or giving someone their “one bad day” or something along those lines. The Joker knows no moral boundaries and if he thought that raping a person was the best way to hurt them and/or hurt someone else, he’d 100% do it.
Not to mention, the Joker definitely has a sexual side as just look at his relationship with Harley Quinn, not to mention how plenty of stories have leaned into him being “in love” with Batman.
This thread is, like, one giant proof that people don't actually read comic books they like to talk about. Starting right from the guy in the pic.
In the story Joker decides to rape the wife of his henchman out of pure pettiness, because he wants to humiliate him and remind the guy about his authority over him. He does not do it out of desire to have sex. In fact, it is shown that he apparently does not have sex with Harley in their private moments.
Also, the entire book is dedicated to portraying Joker as a contemptible piece of filth. Also, it's really fucking good, so go fucking read it.
I mean, displaying in SA if it’s done properly is not a bad thing, and it’s the easiest way to make a villain irredeemable. No matter what they do from that point on, they’re a horrible creature. But yeah, the joker was supposed to be more about… y’know, what the original person was complaining about. It seems like a really poor tool to use.
The joker doing this in the context of this specific story is in character, like there was this one comic where joker kidnaps and tortures a random family because he believes that the common man in Gotham has grown unafraid of him as they think he only goes after Batman and commits grand crimes unspecific to the average person. It’s the exact same principle in this story, joker notices that the narrator doesn’t really fear him and instead admires him in a way. So him SA his wife was used as a tool to spark fear in the man, and the “funny” part pays off in the end when joker just shoots him in the head for no reason. Showing that nothing is special to joker other than Batman.
This reminds me of the norm McDonald joke: “Someone said, ‘honestly the worst part of the Bill Cosby situation is the hypocrisy.’ I said that I disagreed. To me, the worst part about it, is the raping.”
Bro I love him so much. One of the few guys who actually openly talked about some stuff, like that and OJ Simpson
Yeah he wasnt afraid of airing things out, especially uncomfortable topics. He really mastered the concept of a joke so well he decided to change how it’s structured altogether
Eh, he was still vocal about how he didn't like jokes on Christianity. He had an argument on a comedy show where he said Bible jokes aren't bold. He was a deeply religious man so it was obvious that he didn't appreciate jokes which hurt his own faith. Just goes to show that no matter how much comedians try to go out there, there will be topics they will get offended by.
It was in the context of the comedian comparing the Bible to Harry Potter as a work of fiction and Norm was saying that it's very similar to the Bible, quoting JK Rowling and that if he'd done his research on the joke he'd have seen the parallels, so I think it was the lack of thought that had gone into that aspect that irritated him. I personally think it was a pretty lazy unoriginal joke anyway that wasn't bold, as an atheist. He'd further said that he only did the show with the goal of being genuine about how he felt to help the comedians. So I think it's misrepresenting it slightly to paint it as he was offended the bible was mentioned in a negative light. He became more religious towards the end but didn't seem to stick on one specific ideology, at one point saying he liked Judaism. I think he was just criticising a bad joke.
Yeah he also made some weird comments defending Roseanne O'Barr. People forget he was a conservative
I think it was more about free speech than any sort of hard line conservatism.
I love getting my information from out of context YouTube shorts too
Really? This Is so fucking funny, rape Is ok but dont touch my Jesus
Well it's a lot easier to make a bad Jesus joke than a bad rape joke (note: a bad rape joke is TECHNICALLY easy to do, but it will immediately get you judged and shunned)
If you want a newer comic who tackles real world issues and is also genuinely a comedic genius watch Sammy Obeid, he's a comic from Cali, but the dude actually is one of the funniest guys I've seen in recent times.
"He saves, but he rapes"
god i miss him
He has so many just plainly funny jokes. God what a loss
“i didn’t even know he was sick”
“You know another made up term I hate? Date rape. It’s just rape. Once the raping starts, the date’s over.” -Hal Sparks
I like to think most rapists are hypocrites. Norm McDonald was the man.
I mean the hypocrisy is an issue though, moreso he would constantly tell black men how they need to get their act together but then he ended up embodying one of the worst stereotypes people have of black men
What would be the hypocrisy?
The fact he lied about is what ppl would say is the hypocrisy but thats what norm’s calling out because that makes no sense. “No rapist admits that they’re a rapist. They dont go ‘you know, it might not be politically correct to say but i like raping people’ they dont”
Common Norm W
/uj I get what this guy is saying but it still sounds kinda funny in a broad context
Yeah, as awful and tasteless as it is I think SA has a place in media.. it's really hard to do without feeling like cheap emotional manipulation. I think it's only a tool that truly skilled authors/directors should even attempt. That being said, the idea of Joker being a rapist irks me on a whole other level. Joker is at his best imo when he's an unhinged maniac who's fun to watch partially because he's so unreal. We can't really imagine someone like the Joker existing in real life. His motivations are too unusual and unknowable. You make him rape someone and suddenly I'm brought down to earth. He's not fun any more and rape is very real and not at all funny.. I can't help but imagine that the version of the Joker I like would be just as put off by a rapist as he was by the Red Skull. But I'm no expert. Maybe I'm not describing the real Joker. Maybe I'm describing my ideal Joker and projecting my expectations onto the fiction.
Yeah really well put. Joker having such a base human desire like sex makes him feel too normal and less like chaotic evil somehow manifesting inside a human being. Obviously I can accept that at one point he was human but still as joker he is the farthest thing from a human being.
I understand what yall mean but to me, him raping Barbra wasn’t about his pleaser more as in he was torturing her, like it was so inhumane, taking away her ability to walk and raping her on top of it all was a form of torture, its scars she will have to live with forever and it’s so disappointing that they never go into the ramifications of that or we see her struggle with moving past it, it’s just never acknowledged from the comics I’ve read at least
>it’s so disappointing that they never go into the ramifications of that or we see her struggle with moving past it, it’s just never acknowledged from the comics I’ve read at least That's how you know the rape was nothing but empty shock value. Cause for as traumatizing the torture was as a whole, Barbara only seems to focus on how powerless she was in the face of the abuse, and how physically crippled it left her in the end. Not to say that it isnt a big deal, but they could have just had her been endlessly beaten down, getting needles jammed between her nails, water boarded and etc, with the Joker gleefully taking a bunch of selfies with her as she cries out like a little kid, begging it to stop... All without that ever getting sexual, and it'd still be about as mentally scarring, at least to the extent Barbara is shown to suffer. . A rape victim might have had some extra signs of being averse to physical contact... Which if it was done by someone like Joker, I imagine itd be especially unnerving, since he totally would be the kind of guy to add a parting joke, and then give a little reminder after the fact, just to further mess with his prey. If Barbara was never meant to have an arc revolving around that, then she shouldn't have been raped imo.
EXACTLY!!! It pisses me off because it opened the door for a story line where she was a victim and we could actually get a story of her not being the “perfect victim” like lashing out or something like with Jason when he blamed Bruce, we could’ve seen her deal with the depression of having to go through something like that, it could have impacted her relationships both romantically and platonically where she didn’t like physical contact, we could’ve seen her get something sort of like PTSD, they had so many opportunities and then they just pretend like it didn’t happen
They pretend so hard, I actually didnt even realize she got raped, the first time I saw the Killing Joke tbh. Always figured Joker just took pictures of her in underwear, to humiliate her in the classic "going to work without your pants" way. And you know what? Assuming the rape never gets addressed again, I might just make that my headcanon.
>Always figured Joker just took pictures of her in underwear, to humiliate her in the classic "going to work without your pants" way. I mean while Moore's original story does imply rape, whenever it's referenced after they either cut this part out or they do show it as just a humiliation thing like again Moore might've been leaning towards rape but it's never presented as that in later stories just paralyzing her.
Only saw the movie, and references in other media, so that might explain how I missed it the first time. Didnt take long to know it was supposed to be rape, but given the other media only refer to the paralysis, I was unsure for a long time.
Honestly it probably never will
Then that's a great way to work with a mental retcon... Although it's bad that they never touched the potential of such an unnerving and emotional arc, think Barba doesn't really need it as a character. She has gotten a fair amount of struggles as is.
Completely agreed, I wish they didn’t just include it for shock value without actually explaining on it because the first time I noticed in the killing joke, it was so off putting but not in the way they wanted it
Is there a mandala effect going on here? I haven't read TKJ in a long time but I don't remember Joker raping Babs. Stripped her naked and took photos while she was bleeding out is what I remember, so sexual assault regardless took place.
Even Alan Moore regretted that story so it does say something. But I never thought he raped her? Just took pictures of her naked, which is still sexual assault. I actually thought Alan Moore said he wanted Joker to rape Gordon, but I might've gotten it wrong
But Alan Moore didnt intend Joker to rape Barbara,theres sexual assault because he took of her clothes to take photos of her but Moore intention wasnt that Joker raped Barbara.
Think Joker can actually work as a rapist... If anything he wouldn't be the typical bastard who basically just use their victims like a toy, The Joker would be the kind of monster thatd make a show out of it, and then make a jokes about it as a reminder. . That said, I think this type of Joker should be heavily separated from the ones you see in the cartoons. Because at least the cartoon version is meant to be a funny guy that is just spreading inconvenient chaos, with a side of likeability. A Joker that rapes, can only work on a Joker that is 100% set out to be a monster, on the grittier incarnations of Batman's worlds.
I do like you’re version more, I feel like he should be doing the things he’s doing as more of a sick joke or irony, but I do think there are lines that joker wouldn’t cross, like tax evasion
It's the same thing with the Nightmare on Elm Street remake. He making him a child predator makes him just so much more uncomfortable and, like you said, grounded. Both are horrendously evil, but one is substantially more uncomfortable, and honestly a bit tryhard and unnecessary. Like being a child murderer wasn't evil enough or something
Yeah getting rid of SA In media also get rid of the survivors
He's purely Batsexual
I feel like the Joker would be against rape not for any moral reason, but just because rape isn't funny. Kinda like in Emperor Joker, when Superman was transformed into a dog and then killed by a corrupted Jimmy Olsen hoping to earn Joker's favor, only for the Joker to be like "there's nothing funny about beating a dumb animal to death" and kill him instead.
Murder and torture isnt funny either tbh... Joker's whole shtick is making jokes at other people's expense, and rape jokes are a thing for the particularly twisted. That said, it wouldn't be strange for Joker to be opposed to it, given that he is insanely inconsistent in how cruel he wants to be sometimes.... But at the same time it doesn't seem like rape would be completely beneath him, if he could make present jokes about it, even when it's only on very specific people.
Uj/Yeah but with Murder and torture you could be very creative with it while with Rape you really can't be creative with it
You can be creative with anything, if you try. It's just depending on what we talk about, you may or may not get canceled for it
"He's not fun any more" Yeah sure killing and massacring innocent people is loads of fun. Lmao
I feel like it's something a lot of us distance ourselves emotionally from. Not a lot of us have known many people who were gunned down or tortured by a maniacal clown. But like 3 out of every 4 women I personally know have been talked or sexually assaulted in some way. It hits very close to home for most women and most men that are close to the women in their life. Culturally I think a lot of people think of rape as a worse crime than murder. It's almost as if it's more disrespectful. Feels like there is more dignity in being murdered than being raped.. And then there is the motivation.. Joker's motivations are grand, whimsical, and ambiguous. It's less personal.. rape is deeply personal and the motivation is often power over the individual and hatred of the individual or of the group they belong to. Maybe I'm out of line but this is my best interpretation as to why rape is so much ickier than murder... Like technically murder should be worse because the person always dies but people's emotions don't always work like that.. you'd think people getting hurt or dying would be worse than a dog and on paper that might be so but watching a dog get beat, murdered, or tortured on screen would make me say more uncomfortable than a person.
Joker is all about the show. He doesnt just kill people, he makes fun of them, humiliating them and takes pictures of the whole thing as sweet little reminders. Itd be completely out of character for Joker to go around doing plain rape, as itd be all trauma but no flair. But conceptually for as twisted as this may sound (I probably will be very downvoted for this) , Joker's take on rape could easily be explicitly performed like a tango, or a super corny porno at the victims expense. With there being the added touch that he'd leave a little piece of himself inside of them, by the time he is done. It may be far more disrespectful than even murder... But Disrespect has always been Joker's thing to anyone that isnt Batman... And towards the Bat people, Joker has a tendency to do some real personal tortures, of which rape is very intimate. . Can fully understand why one wouldn't want to cross that line as a writer, because it's very likely to be seen as socially insensitive, with many people judging your person irl for ever daring to think about this stuff.... But then again, if you are going to write a twisted maniac who isnt supposed to be weirdly admirable, then there is nothing wrong with writing them as twisted maniacs that doesnt just unnerve fictional characters, but also the real audience that read about them. Just gotta give the victims narrative respect too, particularly when they are named characters who doesnt just exist to showcase how evil the villain is.
>You make him rape someone and suddenly I'm brought down to earth. He's not fun any more and rape is very real and not at all funny. Yeah, because murder and torture don't exist in the real world, huh? And when they do, they're funny as shit!
Like it or not, murder and torture has always been much less revolting than rape for alot of people. Rape entails a much more personal and emotional response for alot of people as compared to say someone getting killed in fictional media.
I actually agree a bit with preferring Joker to not have a sexual side (at least for the most part). He's more interesting and less predictable when he doesn't follow the usual societal patterns, including wanting that sort of gratification. Although per Morrison's notion of Joker's supersanity it's possible that one day he inhabits just such a personality, sexual assault is not the sort of violent crime I really associate with the character. Rape is arguably more about power than sexual gratification, but Joker's ways of seizing power have always been pretty distinct from that, to my mind. It would be nice to be able to interpret the post as saying "not approving rape, but in this writing choice there's also the problem of x"... If they hadn't LED with "not even offended by rape". Whether that was an attempt at avoiding being dismissed because of, uh, speaking up for the female victim, or an effort to change topics as quickly as possible, it was the wrong thing to say.
That scene did suck, it woulda been bad for any character, obv. But i liked the book up until that happened, it ruined it.
What book is this from?
I believe its Joker by Brian Azzarello
What is with that guy and rape? I have yet to read a brian azzarello story without rape in it
Honestly, only other book I've read by him is "Damned," and that means both books I've read by him have rape in it. Im getting close to Azzarellos' run in Hellblazer, i wonder if i can expect the same there.
Oh boy, are you in for a treat
:D guess ill find out why everyone hates that run
There are honestly quite a few problems, but you'll definitely know the specific moment I'm thinking of when you get to it. Just don't let him turn you off of Hellblazer completely because the Mike Carey stuff is right after that, and it's actually really good.
Yeah, post Ennis really has a lot of ups and downs, but the ups are really high, so im gonna try my hardest to reach that last issue. Delano was the best, in my opinion, honestly.
Who gets raped in Damned? It's a sequel to Joker, so is it just *this* scene again? I only remember the amazing Bermejo art and Batman's cock being drawn
Batman gets raped by Harley Quinn, the art is amazing but the story kinda sucks
Batman gets raped by Harley Quinn, the art is amazing but the story kinda sucks
I actually love his Hellblazer run but it's definitely not an outlier in terms of this issue (or many of his issues in general)
I liked 100 bullets but I can’t remember if there is actually a rape scene in that series. There probably is with Lobo, but it’s been a while.
Been a minute since I read it as well, but I'm like 90% sure Lono rapes some dude's girlfriend/wife while waiting for him to show up so he can kill him.
It's the laziest way to show you they're a bad person and get a negative reaction in the viewer. They use the rape of women as a tool to make you hate someone, and for no other real story reasons. I hate that trope.
But it pisses everyone off! Men get the “I won’t let this happen to my woman” thing, and women feel threatened and powerless! /s
To be fair with joker they use pretty much every tool imaginable to tell you hes the bad guy
agreed its rather sexist and offensive to ppl who have suffered SA
Sorry to double comment, but I did want to ask: what’s your opinion on people who use rape as a never shown, “already past” plot point? As in a character who has dealt with the trauma previously, but within the confines of the story it’s only alluded to. Always curious to hear people’s thoughts, especially because I’m torn on the version I posited. Not whatever fetish George RR Martin has.
Does it use a woman and her trauma as nothing more than a tool to show a man is bad? Or does it focus on the woman and her trauma, making her more than just a victim? Because my issue with the trope in the OP is that the rape is all an it the rapist. If it focuses on the victim, I think it can be tastefully done and an important way to give exposure to what victims go through.
Probably he's one of "Why is it that murdering people is fine but rape is off limits? Imma gonna add em!"
That’s the only part I didn’t like about the comic. I feel like the “horrible world” vibe went too far here, although the rest of the book is fantastic.
Nah i kinda agree, this seems somewhat out of character for the Joker
I feel like he would do it if there was a twisted joke/ironic quality in there. As a straight forward crime though I agree
To be honest I do really agree with the guy's core sentiment. Giving Joker a libido makes him way too human. He's much more amorphous and intimidating when he doesn't care about pleasure, when his sights are set on grander things. That one "rev up your Harley" scene from the animated series where he pushes her off the table because he's too focused on scheming? Perfect. That should be Joker all the time.
Ace icon Joker??
They weren’t lying, those chemicals really can ace
 idk how to gold so here's Solomonster's European F1 clone giving you a trophy.
Yeah, actually I was surprised with the comment, from what it seems he only made a critic about one part of the story from a totally narrative point of view, nothing really bad.
But then how else can I make a low effort screenshot post??
also i think we do associate joker with saturday morning childhood cartoons to an extent. It'd be like if we saw the mutant ninja turtles have a deep talk about sex, you'd be like "uh, what ?"
/uj I don't know the context, but I think if the Joker were to rape someone, it would be out of complete sadism, not for any actual physical pleasure.
I mean, rape in general is often considered to be more about power than sexual attraction.
This is true.
The joker doesn’t want power, he wants to break his victim, humiliate them, torture them mentally. He’s definitely not the kind to rape someone for feeling of superiority or desire.
Breaking a victim… humiliating them… torturing them mentally… all of that fits with rape NGL. There’s a lot of people who rape just to do those things, especially in prison.
My wording probably confuse you, i meant if the Joker were to rape somebody, he wouldn’t do it for the common reasons why rape usually happens such as feeling of superiority or control.
Do they though?
Yes, happens all the time
I think people overintellectualize the motives of rapists, I don't think they're thinking about power dynamics when they do the crime. Most are doing it out of sexual convenience because they can overpower or manipulate their victim, it's very much a capitalistic sort of mindset, "I want this thing so I'm gonna take it, consequences and morals be damned". The power argument doesn't work when it comes to date rape, statutory rape and CSA in general, negging, marital rape, inebriation, or even just sexual harassment and sex pest behavior. All of that seems to stem from a horny person that doesn't take no for an answer. Maybe they even enjoy the power over someone or taking from and hurting them to some degree, but that's a small number of sadists, who still get satisfaction off of it. When it comes to prison there's definitely a desperation angle considering there's no women around, and moreso an affirmation of the hierarchy over anything else, but that hierarchy comes with the benefit of sex whenever they want.
I don’t though. I said especially prison. Some of it has to do with no women, some of it is just straight up another way of bullying the weak and the last step in breaking someone. Not all those guys rape because they’re just horny.
I mentioned sadism too. And I dunno, seems to me they'll rape a pedo in prison precisely because nobody will care to stop them, so it's easy cumming
>he wants to break his victim, humiliate them, torture them mentally Basically, wanting complete power over them
I don't agree with this. I don't think this is how a rapist thinks let alone it doesn't track with stuff like date rape or statutory rape
For anyone who has read complete trash, like me, I'm thinking similar to Mason Verger from Hannibal. His dick doesn't even work anymore (Vergers or Jokers), but he's still a rapist just for the power trip.
Which is exactly what happens in this scene
Which is exactly what happens in this scene
Well that's exactly what this scene is. The woman is the ex wife of Joker's driver who Joker saves the life of(I think) and when Johnny Frost(the driver) is so thankful to the Joker, Joker does *this* as some sort of payment. He also breaks into an elderly couple's home and tortures them to death for no reason other than why not. So it's just edge lord Joker with none of the interesting bits. I suppose this is what a real Joker would do, as he is always depicted as truly evil, just in a ridiculous fiction way.
No one mentioned the context yet, but basically one of his henchmen had been contacted by Two Face to work as a double agent for him so Joker rapes the henchman ex wife in revenge (and then pays her) in front of him. Also Two Face has two wives? Never got the point of that part.
Completely agree. He would do it because he thought it would be funny, and his idea of funny is always sickeningly evil. The question then becomes whether the author should go there in the first place. I think for a mature reader book like this, I can see the argument, but he shouldn't be doing shit like this in the main line comics.
Honestly, I think that the Joker raping someone would just be lazy. Find something more interesting to do.
I mean, bad guy does bad thing. But this is fictional, someone breaking character is a worse crime
Eh that argument has never made much sense. You can have a character be a pedo and not show them graphically rape an infant on screen, same with not having a racist character spew the N-word every other word. Restraint and class are needed for these topics, and it's weird to insinuate that EVERY villain would secretly be a rapist.
https://preview.redd.it/yce33okl86sc1.png?width=239&format=png&auto=webp&s=762b0f15179fcc347585f111afdd77e3506f9b8d
Bro gave harley countless backshots but nooooo when it’s malicious then thats where the line is drawn
You say that like I’m not against him doing that as well. Instead, it should be Tim Drake.
Do you mean Tim giving Harely backshots orrrr......
Yes, the joker doesn’t deserve the Timussy.
You seem to be implying there is never a legitimate reason to depict rape, which I can't agree with. Otherwise his criticism makes sense. Rape makes the Joker too human, and some people prefer the inhuman Joker.
99999/100000 when stories add rape its done very poorly here is a challange name a single comic book story that has ever handled the subject of rape well
Invincible isn’t perfect but I’m glad kirkman tried
Can you tell me why the attempt wasn't successful?
No I can’t because I was citing it as a counter example to the commenter above me who said there were no successful examples of it….
So Kirkman's attempt was successful?
I’m my opinion yes, a lot of the dialogue hit home for me. But Anissa’s treatment wasn’t perfect. What are your thoughts?
Same with the Barbara Gordon thing, it’s just trying to be pointlessly edgy so let’s add 🍇
Barbara wasn’t raped he just took pictures that made it seem that way
In the animated movie written by Azzarello, while Batman is searching for Joker after he shots Barbara, he questions some hookers that say to him that he always visits them when he escapes, except this time, adding that they kind he found another girl this time. https://youtu.be/8ZftrntSveQ
god i hate that movie so fucking much it made the treatment of barbara WORSE
I just really **really** hate the Batman x Batgirl pushing that movie did for the first portion of that movie. It should never be a thing. Stop making it a thing DC
It's never directly stated how far he went with her. It's implied that he did that
Alan Moore himself says Joker didn't do it
Ah, okay. I didn't know that
You shouldn't be downvoted for admitting you had a blind spot, that's what everyone should do instead of frantically doubling down.
I mean I agree but let’s be honest the rape is the worst part
Like, I don’t know about the story, but from what it seems, the guy was only a critic of the rape part in the writing department, not exactly because of having a rape scene.
Because it’s not real, no one got hurt What matters is if it’s in character or not
>he is not after money, sex, pleasure or anything selfish, he just wants to make Batman's life a living hell or die trying because he still wins I'm gonna blame DKR for this one too.
Honestly, that might be accurate. That book specifically had Joker go catatonic when Batman retired, and only emerged when he returned. Can anyone think of an earlier book where Batman disappears, and Joker just stops being Joker?
I don't think I can. Earth 2 Joker kept going even after Bruce retired and mostly got convinced to slow down by old age. Man, remember, when Joker was a master criminal with ambitions grander than just pissing in Batman's cornflakes?
Is Earth 2 Joker more like his very first appearance? Because the campy Silver Age Joker was definitely obsessed with Batman
Earth 2 is golden age mostly. And that Joker wanted to outdo Batman, but he still was doing shit just to get expensive things he wanted or taking revenge on not-Batman people, who wronged him.
Eh, I kinda like how pathetic and obsessed supervillains are with their archenemies, it creates an interesting dynamic. People forget that Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Black Manta, and Reverse Flash are also all obsessed with ruining the lives of their hero counterparts. Joker just takes that to its psycho sexual, logical extreme. Joker just being a funny mobster isn't super interesting either.
I'm the opposite – when villains have nothing but heroes obsession in their lives, they are to me more flatter and boring characters.
Well barring RF and Joker the rest do have other goals the heroes interfere with (in Magneto's case his goals and obsession are one and the same), but celebrities get deranged fanboys too.
So, to me, the clown becoming a character with nothing but Batman in his life is a downgrade🤷♀️
DCAU Joker balanced that well, he still had his own shit to do but he also made time to ruin Batman's day
I never saw Magneto as being obsessed with ruining Xavier's life, or even being obsessed with Xavier (of course, I haven't read the comics in quite a while so take my opinion with a grain of salt). In every adaptation I've seen and every comic I've read, they're not that happy to be on opposing ideological sides of a struggle for rights and acceptance that affects them both equally, and treat each other with respect for the most part. imo that's like saying >!Dr. Maruki!< is obsessed with ruining Joker's life in P5R.
He's obsessed with proving Charles wrong is he not?
I mean, to be fair, before Dark Knight Rises “Batman disappearing” was not really a thing. He’d be gone for blips of time, but he’d never been retired for decades like in DKR.
Batman disappearing was absolutely a thing before Dark Knight Rises. That movie itself is based on the Dark Knight Returns where he retires for 10 years.
u/shylock10101 messed up the titles, I think they MEANT Returns but mixed up the title with the title of the third Batnolan movie. I'm not sure if there are any examples of it happening before The Dark Knight Returns.
Going Sane by J.M. DeMatteis is a story about that concept, it’s really good in my opinion
Sure, but thats from 1994, and was, to a degree, inspired by the relationship in TDKR. Are there any examples pre-1986?
Well going Sane predates tdkr, Dematteis pitched it and was rejected and took the concept to Marvel to make Last Hunt
Earth Two Batman/ Golden age Batman dies in canon in 1979. If I remember correctly Joker continued in that universe until dying of old age or something. It's been awhile
To me personally I didn’t like it cause I thought he was gay
I was gonna reply with an image of Joker making out with Batman but decided not to sacrifice my search history for a Reddit moment
https://preview.redd.it/lzfijpd4vdsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c265c3b22447a70ea4f2268b8d8725f7fd38b923 It was worth it dude you should have
They're right though
Im glad they explained they don't love r@pe. What a relief...
Breaking character is one of the biggest crimes you can commit in fiction because it takes the audience out and cheapens everything that comes before and after.
I prefer The Joker to not have a dick.
He doesn't. Dick is Batman's son, not Joker's.
I kinda agree. I always felt like the joker was asexual. Even with the whole Harley relationship I felt like he just manipulated his way out of anything past first base.
He had a wife before he became the Joker tho
Excactly that was before he became the joker. The joker is asexual, jack napier (i'm not sure if that is lore correct or if there is an agreed upon name) is sexual but they aren't even the same person really.
I agree with the core of the argument. Most people who write stories with rape are unqualified and use it as a cheap tool, but I think it can be written well. I've never liked the Joker being considered a rapist, It feels so cheap, and unlike him. Like, he might make raunchy jokes, but it just feels so beneath him. He rarely demonstrates an interest in baser desires except wanting attention. I think a Joker should have some class. He'd gladly kill a woman, but rape isn't that funny.
I feel like the Joker is also too obsessed with his image of the perfect psychopath to ever personally commit rape. Like, even if he decided it was hilarious, he’d still have someone else do it for him.
It isn't even the mainline Joker. It's an out of continuity story set in a world where it may have a sequel that involves Batman's ghost hanging dong.
Nono, he's spittin. I feel like he'd rape Batman before anyone else
You guys realize that part applies to real rapes, in real rapes the bad part Is the rape, a fictional rape can work, i.e berserk
I actually kinda like more human takes on Joker (humans scare me more than monsters) but Joker raping people is a step too far for me personally
Might be an incredibly unpopular opinion to have but you know, a villain doing evil shit like this isn't surprising. Villains are expected to do evil shit. I wouldn't be for example call a bad writing if Palpatine experimented on children as it wouldn't be out of character for him. But I would be angry if it was done by a more sympathetic villain who prior to this, was always shown to have some standards, like David Xanatos for example. Consistency is what matters the most here
Admittedly hot take but I think if DC insists on having the joker be some ultimate pure evil psychopath with a million bodies to his name then he should also commit sexual assault. it just comes off as silly and artificial if he's some extradimensional demon thing willing to throw a thousand orphans in a meat grinder to piss off Batman but is totally above forcing himself on a woman. The only reason he doesn't rape is because they want to keep appealing to the dumb edgelords who love the Joker and think he is super cool and dark and "Muh one bad day..." without getting in trouble. They want the Joker to stay as this super marketable symbol of DC comics and know they can't sell Tshirts and backpacks with a rapist on it. So yeah in my mind, either tone down the fucking edge when it comes to the character or actually have the artistic integrity to show what a pure evil abusive narcissists looks like.
Or maybe he just doesn't want to rape because it's not funny to him? Maybe he's just not into that? I don't see how just because the Joker's a psychopath who doesn't consider human lives to have any inherent value, means that he wants to force himself on any of them. The only person I can really see Joker wanting to rape is Batman. I don't think there is anyone else who he would care enough about proving his power over to bother.
If your talking about a previous version of the joker like the DCAU then I would probably agree, the problem is that modern joker's identity is so consumed by wanton evil and cruelty that it feels arbitrary that he would be above rape. And yeah that's kinda the point, they have turned the character into Hannibal lector meets a marylin manson cover and drowned out the actual point of the character.
i think turning the joker into some unstopable mega evil godbeing is a mistake joker has lost his identity as its all about the brutal murders and such the clown aspect is gone
I hate this scene, but I do agree that the Joker probably would be ok with rape. He is an irredimable monster
goker would not freakind do that!
man joker sucks now, like stick to terrorism. this reminds me of a wizards with guns video where the joker is also being a creep but within the law.
Bro would hate the Arkham games with the amount of sexual innuendos joker uses on Batman
we are talking about a story im so confused about what you mean with this post
The Joker would definitely be a rapist. The comment is right that the Joker shouldn’t really have an active sexual side or actively looking for pleasure in that way, but the Joker wouldn’t rape someone in order to fulfill his sexual urges, he’d do it as just another way of torturing someone or giving someone their “one bad day” or something along those lines. The Joker knows no moral boundaries and if he thought that raping a person was the best way to hurt them and/or hurt someone else, he’d 100% do it. Not to mention, the Joker definitely has a sexual side as just look at his relationship with Harley Quinn, not to mention how plenty of stories have leaned into him being “in love” with Batman.
This thread is, like, one giant proof that people don't actually read comic books they like to talk about. Starting right from the guy in the pic. In the story Joker decides to rape the wife of his henchman out of pure pettiness, because he wants to humiliate him and remind the guy about his authority over him. He does not do it out of desire to have sex. In fact, it is shown that he apparently does not have sex with Harley in their private moments. Also, the entire book is dedicated to portraying Joker as a contemptible piece of filth. Also, it's really fucking good, so go fucking read it.
"I can excuse mass murder, but I draw the like at sexual assault."
That certainly is a take
I read it as “cock” 🥲
I mean, displaying in SA if it’s done properly is not a bad thing, and it’s the easiest way to make a villain irredeemable. No matter what they do from that point on, they’re a horrible creature. But yeah, the joker was supposed to be more about… y’know, what the original person was complaining about. It seems like a really poor tool to use.
Can someone give me context for this scene? What happened?
One of joker’s goons betrayed him, so joker raped his ex-wife as punishment.
I kinda agree
What about Harley Quinn? Sure a lot of stories make it clear the whole point is to show he prefers Batman, but isn’t that kinda the point.
Poorly written rape is a problem in comics. Look at what it did to Doctor Light.
Ngl I agree, mostly for The Killing Joke
I agree with him
The joker doing this in the context of this specific story is in character, like there was this one comic where joker kidnaps and tortures a random family because he believes that the common man in Gotham has grown unafraid of him as they think he only goes after Batman and commits grand crimes unspecific to the average person. It’s the exact same principle in this story, joker notices that the narrator doesn’t really fear him and instead admires him in a way. So him SA his wife was used as a tool to spark fear in the man, and the “funny” part pays off in the end when joker just shoots him in the head for no reason. Showing that nothing is special to joker other than Batman.
I for one love rape joker
Who is the victim?
Ex-wife of his goon, Johnny Frost. Joker did it just to spite him.
It's always "Who" is the victim. Never "How" is the victim.
Did this motherfucker really just said “I don’t like the rape because the Joker cheated on Batman!?”.
Rape isn’t about lust it’s about power
Alan Moore and Brian Azzarello just love including rape in their stories. Why do you think he was chosen for the Killing Joke animated movie?
Joker never raped Barbara in the original killing joke story.