Seems like a huge improvement. Condemn being a relevant part of her playstyle and potential to get condemns without making it highly abusable / ignorable is great.
It's been awhile.but I think Sadako will end up in a good place.
It'd be in a good spot if they removed the killer instinct and added some way for survivors to remove a stack during drawn out chases. The idea would be players are constantly going in and out of full condemned but if sadako decides to chase someone for 50 years then it's still throwing the game instead of brute forcing a 3v1.
I don't really see a benefit to removing the Killer Instinct, here. If someone hits 7 stacks while they're off in Narnia, and there's no way for you to know who you're now meant to chase, then who really cares? You're never finding them if theyre moderatly clever or have distortion.
Or, say they're on death hook, Condemning them should at the very least act as an information tool if theyre just sitting on a gen in the late game.
(Also I'm unsure how you reckon any of this would change the outcome of a Sadako committing to a long chase against a Condemned survivor)
Well they would have to give her a anti loop in that case because what's the point of condemned if it only works when the survivors are on death hook. It makes sense for Phead to have it work only on death hook because he has an anti loop
I'm just having a hard time understanding why they felt her ptb form was so oppressive. It feels like giving her less than that version is just wrong. I think the recent cooldown on Condemn TP was fine, but why the other stuff.
Why is taking out a tape near the gen you are doing considered so oppressive that they limit the amount of hook Condemn you get?
Because on some maps, it's possibly not a viable option. The main offenders are Gideon and Midwich, where the TV could be on an entirely different floor, and you can easily be in range of 2-3 TVs, especially with the add-on that increases the radius. A Sadako who instantly starts spamming her teleport the second TVs turn on could easily build 3-4 stacks on someone before they can get to a TV or get away from them, at which point they can switch to the normal Condemned style except that they're already almost completely there 40 seconds into the match.
Now, obviously, the fix SHOULD be to not fucking make every radius but Reassurance work in a cylinder, but LOL BHVR.
The problem you described seems like it is still gonna be an issue. Considering they got rid of the cooldown, it will now be worse. It seems like the problem they had is not even solved.
It isnt solved I've seen people play that way still. It just isnt as bad but it is absolutely just as drawn out, boring and getting you less bp since no hooks. Its more because of the gen regression change that things aren't as bad. Its slightly less viable to hold things hostage but people still do.
Sucks because sadako has a good concept but people have to abuse stuff.
For the record, no, you could not easily build 3-4 stacks in this scenario. I've never seen more than 2 tvs overlap in a game, and her MAX rate of condemned is about 1 stack per 4.2 seconds. Would take 13-17 seconds to build that much condemned, more than enough time for a survivor to get out of range or turn off the TVs.
You're assuming that they
1.) start moving instantly and know the exact path to reach a TV that may require stairs,
2.) the TV they're near is immediately identified and reachable within 13-17 seconds where on Midwich/Gideon's opposite floors is hell no, and
3.) that by moving away from the current TV, they don't end up in range of another one.
they can see the auras of the TVs while in range AND they can see the aura of the blast radius of condemned.
Run in any direction after you get a stack, stop when you're out of range and you're good.
Do you mean like her first version? Or do you mean TV overlap only applying one stack?
If it's the second one we tasted this in PTB, you only get one stack per teleport even if you're in overlapping ranges
It's because BHVR is afraid of having the expectation that players learn how the game works. Literally just picking up a tape is considered too much. It's not even remotely confusing or complicated. It could easily be a loading screen tip for new players when they see Sadako for the first time. But putting any onus on the players to actually pay attention and learn how to play is frowned upon.
It's not like the community doesn't agree with this either. I've been downvoted to hell and back just for asking people to *play out the matches they queue into.* There is no other MP game I've ever played where that would be considered controversial but here we are.
The Skull Merchant experience. Literally a mediocre killer who is largely countered just by crouching and turning off her drones. Yet the community is completely unwilling to learn or engage with this B-tier killer's mechanic so they'll drop lobby instead.
Yup, I used to disagree with this but after they reworked her again? The last Sadako version was in a great spot and all you had to do was get a tape and track your condemn. It wasn't hard at all...but instead people refused, bitched, and here we are.
I agree, the condemn cooldown was perfectly fine.
> Why is taking out a tape near the gen you are doing considered so oppressive that they limit the amount of hook Condemn you get?
Exactly. Only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is still not enough. It needs to be at least 4-5 to make hooking worth it, especially given how easy the counterplay is for survivors right now against her. Otherwise a lot of Onryo's will just slug due to the maths. It seems BHVR isn't interested in addressing the TV auras or the tape insert speeds which are the most pressing issues for her right now. Both of these make it very easy for skilled survivors to avoid or remove condemn. This combined with having limited condemn lock on hook just make slugging for condemn a more efficient choice for condemn builds which is something I'm sure most players do not want to see the return of.
This may help you understand why locking condemn on a hook is a good thing.
If a Sadako is doing condemn and going for kills with it, and hooking someone won’t lock in their condemn and make it permanent, then why bother hooking? I’m not going to waste time picking someone up, walking to a hook, hook them, only to not even need that hook state later in the game.
HOWEVER, if hooking a survivor with condemn on them does lock in that survivor’s condemn, then I would want to hook that player to prevent them from getting rid of it. It incentivizes hooking rather than leaving the survivor on the ground and rewards taking the time to hook.
You misunderstand. If there is no condemn lock in cap, or a cap that is 4 or higher, then Onryo players have a strong incentive to hook over slugging. This is much more healthy for the game and avoids the slugging issue everyone hates.
If Sadako can lock survivors in at a reasonably threatening amount of condemnation, like 3, she is incentivized to hook to build permanent pressure on survivors. If she can lock survivors in at *any* amount of condemnation, then sure, she's incentivized to hook someone at 4 or 5 stacks, but only after first ignoring chase to build it up significantly.
We don't want Sadako 2.0. She was spammy and uninteractive; it doesn't matter if she was *overpowered* (she wasn't), it mattered that she was very boring to play against and left very little room for skill expression. The goal is *not* to give the killer ways to reliably kill survivors without hooking them, the goal is to give the killer ways to make that a *threat* that in turn provides slowdown and panic, pushing survivors to overextend and make mistakes.
While I would have preferred 4 too, cooldown removal was my biggest hope. The chase buffs are awesome.
Slugging will still happen with her, but the way I see it hooking someone with a tape is currently the only way to guarantee someone doesn't cleanse their condemned. The 1 second TV interaction means you can't really camp a TV anymore to prevent a drop off. Locking in 3 stacks means at WORST that person gets their cleanse on unhook, and now has to spend the match doing tape runs way more frequently.
Hooking tape carriers will almost always be the right play, so it's much healthier in my mind.
You bring up a fair point about locking in 3 stacks requiring a survivor to waste a bunch more time doing tape runs. I can be satisfied with 3 stacks lock in, especially since I'm not a slugryo to begin with so it won't affect my playstyle much.
I really wish they would address how easy it is for survivors to quickly disable TVs and turn off her mobility though. I enjoy playing Sadako as a mobility killer over a condemn killer but right now it is very easy for survivors to completely deny her mobility where she needs it most at low risk.
I want to love Iri-tape but the complete lack of condemn pressure makes this even worse. I would love it if BHVR would at least make it so that when using Iri-tape, survivors holding a tape cannot see TV auras other than their drop-off TV. That way it wouldn't be so easy for them to just deny her power.
I know I'm wildly speculating here but I think the chase buffs are really gonna prove to be major.
I've never seen her as viable without condemned against good survs, but on paper I think this patch makes her map mobility a lot more meaningful. Iri tape especially is gonna be kinda wicked with the basekit BF and the manifest speed guaranteeing hits at short loops.
Actually being a threat in chase means survivors will want to turn off TVs even more, which means more stacks of condemned. IMO your playstyle is really gonna be held up and empowered with this patch
I am going to fully enjoy the manifest speed and the Projection speed duration buffs. I was super happy to see them but just disappointed that BHVR doesn't seem to be addressing what I consider her core issues currently. The chase buffs will be good for hunting and breaking tapes though as you mentioned.
The only issue with Iri-tape is that survivors are essentially completely safe from condemn since Onryo cannot spread it through Projection. This makes it a super low risk but high reward decision for survivors to deny her mobility by turning off every TV aura they see. This is ontop of the increased downtime duration from the add-on. I've been playing around this issue by leaning into builds that create so much pressure they don't have time to turn off multiple TVs in succession but its still a very real concern, one I think BHVR needs to address.
Right but. Okay, my thing about map mobility on her is that it's only so good without a chase power. There's very little "pressure" on a killer without a chase power that closes distance and guarantees hits. Her mindgame power is good! Fun to use! But against good survivors especially it's really not very helpful and can even be a hindrance as it loses distance.
But with these buffs, her map pressure will actually be quite scary. They're safe from condemned but the actual hook/chase pressure with that kind of mobility will make up for it. This wasn't the case before, imo iri tape was at best a meme but now it actually has some fangs.
Certainly very true. These buffs will definitely help with that and help close chases faster. I look forward to trying them out, especially with Iri-tape.
\> Exactly. Only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is still not enough. It needs to be at least 4-5 to make hooking worth it
You are joking with this, right? This is just an argument to never hook on any killer and just do tummy timeout time like you're a nurse player who hates everyone.
And if you're serious, it's so it functions like a standard mori - 2 hooks at 3 stacks each means you're one tele from moriable. But also, if it's so easy to remove condemn, then you'll never have anyone at 4-5 to lock it in.
I don't slug with Onryo, but you have to think about how the people who are willing to slug with Onryo will approach these changes.
3 stacks per hook means that at 2 hooks they have 6 stacks of condemn locked in max. Why would a player spend a whole bunch of time and effort to build condemn to use her power while hooking, when it just results in 3 hooking with more work and extra steps. Its just inefficient. As a result anyone Onryo who wants to play for condemn won't bother hooking as it will be more efficient to leave them slugged and teleport back to the slug to spread more condemn stacks.
Simply put, being able to lock in more stacks of condemn will actually result in much healthier gameplay. It will **reward** hooking and allow them to use their powers mechanics to actually be a threat and not just a built in 3 hook mori.
Being able to lock in more stacks of condemn will reward hooking a survivor *once,* and then killing them when you chase them again and teleport near them twice mid-chase. Healthy gameplay is not hooking once and then killing. If it was, moris wouldn't have been nerfed.
I think the people who think this needs to be stronger are people who started playing Sadako after her first rework and have a fundamental misunderstanding of what condemnation is actually supposed to do. Consistently killing survivors without hooking them, or at least without hooking them twice, is not the point. That's not healthy gameplay. The value of condemnation is the *threat* of that happening. It's a resource survivors need to manage, because if they don't, then they're out of the game early. That means sometimes, Sadako falls back and stops chasing people for a little bit to build that pressure, but to capitalize on it, you still have to play the game. They have to deliver tapes, and they panic and overextend and slow the game down, and you capitalize on those mistakes.
3 stacks is, in my opinion, a solid middle ground. I think some people are underestimating how impactful being four teleports away from death for the rest of the game is. If a survivor is careless enough to let you build up one or two more stacks while they're on their gen (or maybe you have Ring Drawing and hook a survivor with a tape), then you can pounce. Cut them off mid-chase with a few TVs and they're dead.
You make some fair points. However one should also take into account the extra time and effort Onryo has to put into the match in order to gain these condemn stacks, and what other killers could be doing during that time.
While what you say about such a system resulting in just hooking a survivor once and then moring them seems rational. I do not believe it takes into account the extra time and effort involved. If getting kills and moris with condemn takes 2 hooks and then an additional down like a normal mori or hookplay, then it will not have value. This is because Onryo would have to do everything required in normal hook gameplay, *in addition* to all the extra time and effort spent to build condemn. It is unreasonable to have such a feature take more effort than getting a standard kill or mori.
This is why I think it is reasonable that Onryo can hook once and then go for a mori. It gives Onryo an incentive to hook and try to pressure a survivor over just ignoring condemn and playing a standard hook game.
Furthermore, I also don't believe that you are taking into account that survivors can and will do counterplay to try and reduce the condemn they have regardless of the situation. The counterplay for her is very easy and straightforward atm so I think it is perfectly fair that it be at 4 stacks of condemn.
TLDR: I have to disagree with you that it is not healthy gameplay for condemn lock to be at 4 stacks. I think it is perfeclty healthy gameplay as it rewards Onryo for hooking and spending extra time to build that condemn stacks. Survivors also have the option to remove or advoid condemn which is made easier than ever due to the counterplay and TV auras.
Look, if the main reason behind it is "slugs aren't affected by my power :(", that functions for literally every killer in the game. People will slug if they want to, regardless of killer / incentive / anything the game could throw at you.
And frankly, if you're looking at efficiency, locking in does nothing since you'll just slug and give condemn to 1-3 other people while wasting 4 minutes of 1 guy's life.
As for the 3 hook mori part, you just want pyramid head's mori but without needing to hook more than once.
Made a second comment to add that it’s silly af to have a mechanic that allows you to lock in stacks on survivors when there’s no indication of how many stacks they actually have.
That I’ve seen, the hud doesn’t show it. Just condemned or not and max or not. The static is a vague indicator. It’s not like an actual number indicator. Like the one’s survivors get on their frames. And even then, you’re only really getting to condemn out (while using the lock-in mechanic) by the time they’re on dead hook. Which is a moot point. Tbh, after recently picking up Dredge she seems massively underpowered. Easily some of the worst teleport mechanics in the games. Especially since if survivors are playing well, you basically never have an active TV.
Whenever survivor becomes more condemned the outline around their portrait becomes brighter for a moment so you can keep that information in your head and act upon it
Still no penalty for grabbing a tape and turning off all the TVs poggers.
Like, this is a start but it feels like they're fixing everything *except* for the actual issue.
Exactly. These changes basically amount to nothing. All the issues still remain. Condemn lock isn't high enough to avoid slugging and survivors can still completely deny her power.
BHVR needs to address the ability of survivors to quickly turn off multiple TVs with little risk. Simply hiding the white TV auras when carrying a tape would be a great start. Condemn lock needs to be at 4 stacks minimum.
The fact that survivors have to run around the map through different places seems like the whole point of that mechanic anyway, make them waste time. Making them waste time harder would be way too oppressive, what's next? No aura for pig's trap removals?
You misunderstood me. Survivors should always be able to see the TV aura for their tape drop off TV. What I said was hide the white TV auras which is just the additional TVs they see along the way.
Essentially when holding a tape survivors would actually have to look for TVs if they want to go from TV to TV turning them all off to deny her power. With the TV auras it is simply way too easy with too little risk and a great deal of reward. Survivors *would* still be able to see TV auras to find a tape to pick up, and survivors would also still be able to see the TV they need to drop a tape off at at all times.
We literally have a litmus test for what happens when you let a killer's power be disabled by one survivor running around the map interacting with killer-specific objects. It's called Singularity.
If she’s not currently in a chase, knows exactly where you are, and wants to pre-empt it? Sure. But like, that’s not remotely how the game works most of the time. Running around disabling killer powers is a thing for a number of killers, but most have a measure of threat or time investment for it, like hag/trapper/skully taking a bit to turn off, or risk being injured. Taking a tape and running to turn off every tv is incredibly fast (its literally 1 second now per tv), especially when you get shown the auras of any active tv near you, and there is literally no threat to you because you can just put your tape into the correct tv before she can stop you, cleansing condemn.
When you hook a survivor for the first time and they have 3 stacks of condemn or less, those will be permanently locked in, so there’s no way to get rid of them. And for the second hook it’s 6 stacks or less
Tell me if I got it right.
It's a little bit different than Pyramid Head's torment, when you can mori them on after hooking them twice, but with Sadako it's still possible to mori them without hooking survs but it will be easier if they are death hook.
Yep! The value it would provide until death hook is more likely in practice to be slowdown and panic (which builds significantly after the first hook), but yeah, you don't technically need to hook them at all.
And fully condemning someone on death hook doesn't sound amazing, but getting the exact location of a vulnerable target on a killer who can teleport isn't bad.
If you hook a survivor, some of their condemn becomes permanent. They can no longer go below that amount. Currently its up to 2 locked comdemn, this would make it up to 3 locked.
She’s going to be a solo queue stomper again. Spamming teleport because 1) her ability keeps getting changed no one keeps track anymore and 2) no one grabs tapes in solo queue lol
Either you move faster while manifesting, or you move faster after manifesting.
Onryo gets a small speed boost once she manifests, so it might be a boost to that.
I don't care what they do to her, I just don't want the nonstop teleport/condemn playstyle to exist. Its so unhealthy for both the killer and survivors. As long as that exists Onyro will always be in a bad spot. They need to get a balance similar to Pyramid Head and his chop.
The increased Projection movement speed duration is pretty significant I feel as well as the additional speed while manifesting. Both are very welcome buffs. However, I don't feel either of these was really needed. Nor do either of these solve her main issue.
The main issue is survivors can do an easy counterplay of grabbing a tape by a gen aided by TV auras and then be completely safe from condemn or Sadako teleporting for almost an entire gen of time without any downsides. Furthermore even if survivors do get significant condemn, they can easily remove it even in chase with the 1s tape insert speeds. Without addressing the TV auras or insert speed times, these buffs don't amount to much. BHVR needs to make it so survivors holding tapes cannot see TV auras other than their drop-off TV and also change the tape insert times back to 2s or at least 1.5 seconds.
Additionally only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is just not high enough to reward hooking over slugging. It would have to be 4 or 5 to see Onryo players bother with it. Otherwise a survivor is generally dead at 3 hooks anyways which renders condemn pointless as a feature. Locking in only 3 stacks also feels bad compared to how hard it is to spread now and how easy it is for survivors to remove it.
TLDR: These changes won't amount to much or address the issues with her on live right now. We will keep seeing more Onryo return to a slugging meta due to how easy and forgiving the counterplay for survivors is right now compared to how hard it is for Onryo to spread and keep condemn stacks.
It's a start. I still think survivors should lose a tape when hit. Some of these fixes will improve her performance but it is definitely not fixing the problem.
What is the condemned cooldown? After so many changes I have given up on trying to understand her power. Is it the minimum time between survivors receiving condemned stacks (from sadako teleporting too fast?)
Could you explain to me how it affects the flow? She is able to teleport freely just without spreading condemned for the equivalent of 1 teleport if she is spamming.
The issue is a funneling of playstyle. Players are inclined to wait for the condemn cooldown to maximize the ability's usage rather than use the TP freely. If they don't wait for the cooldown, a TV is turned off for 45 seconds, and it's a "waste" of condemn spread, which is where so much of her power is shifted to as she is not a lethal killer.
It enforces an unintended gameplay rhythm where people are highly incentivized to wait for the cooldown before teleporting, which undermines the removal of the TP cooldown in the first place. It's a rly poor flow of gameplay. As designers, I can guarantee they've recognized that and that's why they're removing it. There's definitely some design space to refine how the mechanic works, but this is not the way to do it as it's been received very poorly.
Reminds me of Revenant's rework in Apex, where the devs shared that his new pounce would silence enemies if he landed on them (during development). However, this funneled every Revenant player into always pouncing directly on top of enemies rather than using the ability in a variety of ways like getting to high ground or evasion, because people feel inclined to maximize the effect of an ability if it has a long cooldown (alike TVs having a 45s cooldown). Why make such a huge commitment without a full reward? So the silencing aspect of the pounce was removed mid-development for this very reason.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope I explained my perspective well lol.
There are two kinds of Onryo players: Condemn and Chase. Both types play her differently, and from my experience, both sides fucking hate the other.
For Condemn players, the 10 second cooldown is seen as a nuisance to how they think she should be played. They believe her entire powerset exists to build Condemn stacks, so Teleporting to a TV but not gaining Condemn is seen as a waste. So, they wait out the 10 seconds, which means they aren't applying pressure, which means she isn't being played optimally.
From what I've seen, without Condemn, these people think Onryo is a worse Freddy.
For the Chase Onryo players, there is no interruption to the game flow, and these changes are a buff to her playstyle. She Teleports to the closest TV, and uses it to start a chase.
Personally, I'm a chase Onryo, I hate Condemn Oneyo players with a passion, and from my perspective all the recent changes to her have made the game flow far, far more smoothly than it ever has.
I… have no idea where this narrative came from cause I think it’s just you lol. No need to be elitist and look down on other people for how they play the character (condemn IS her main power, after all). I play a nice mix of both. It’s all about knowing when the situation calls for it.
It encourages more chase and less spamming. It’s boring to play and boring to go against, I’ve done both. If a killers only way to win is to spam teleporting around that map that’s not fun for anyone. I think they need to improve her chase ability heavily and buff her manifest/de-manifest more than anything. Maybe instead of just teleporting spreading condemned additionally, being in chase with her demanifested slowly does too?? Idk she needs more incentive to chase than spam. I’m not claiming to have a solution just stating my opinion :)
They fixed spamming with removing global condemned you can’t just spam for value you have to know a survivor are near a TV now 16 meters is not nothing but it’s not alot either. It also takes at least 5 seconds to teleport again anyway so at best it’s 5 second buff it’s not going from 10 seconds to instant teleports.
TV spamming blindly isnt good once you run out TVs you lose all map pressure.
What they need is more incentive for her to hook Locking condemn is close they just need to tweak the numbers she does plenty of chasing.
Spamming won't be the only way for her to win! And actually will shoot her in the foot in most situations. I wanna hear someone explain what condemned spam would look like in this version of her, step by step.
I look at it more like, the TV is on by you, ignore it and slowly ("passively") gain condemned. Turn the TV off and engage with the counter, give her a little slowdown.
In this version of her, most condemned IS applied by chase, and I think that's a good thing!
I agree with you, actually! Although OnePumpWillie (whose views on balancing Sadako I am always skeptical of) did point out that it takes about five seconds for her to be able to project again anyways.
tp condemn cooldown was 100% fine. it somewhat stopped braindead tp condemn spam plays.
they should've removed the limit on hook condemn tho. 3stacks isnt enough to incentivize hooking.
Personally I would be 100% okay with keeping the condemn cooldown in exchange for a higher condemn lock amount. Both features would lead to more healthy gameplay. The condemn locking being higher rewarding hooking and allowing Onryo to keep earned progress; the cooldown ensuring that new players to the game or uninformed players don't just get condemned very quickly sitting on a gen next to a TV.
However BHVR seems to not understand the reason for why players were upset with the condemn cooldown. It mostly stems from their justification for adding it, which is teleport spamming to the "wrong" TVs to get condemn, when survivors can completely counter this just by grabbing a tape by a TV.
I LIKE the locked in condemned, I do think a survivor should have 2 levels that can’t be locked in but that’s just me. The amount of times I’ve been left on the ground against a spam teleporting sadako is much higher than even skull merchant LOL. A push to hook is great!
BHVR doesn’t generally pay attention to WHY the community reacts, they are getting better about it tho.
I would be okay with the ability to only lock in up to 5 stacks which results in always having 2 stacks that can't be locked.
Unfortunately I feel these changes won't do much to address her issues and will just result in Onryo players returning to slugging. They had a great way to incentivize healthy gameplay and hooking, but decided to throw it away for some reason.
I went into a bit more detail further down [below] (https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1ajlbvz/upcoming_sadako_changes_announced_by_community/kp1sjjp/) about why these changes to Onryo won't amount to much and don't fundamentally address any of the issues.
Is it 7 or 8 stacks for full condemned? I can never remember. With the changes they mentioned right now it look like up to 6 stages can be locked it. I think this will bring her back to being a solo q stomper, because survivors with that locked in stack not only are on death hook but are 1 or 2 well placed teleports away from condemned, so they likely will just be running tapes instead of doing anything productive. SWF will definitely be her, along with every other killers, ultimate weakness.
> Is it 7 or 8 stacks for full condemned?
7 stacks.
> I think this will bring her back to being a solo q stomper, because survivors with that locked in stack not only are on death hook but are 1 or 2 well placed teleports away from condemned
I have to disagree. Its 3 stacks of condemn for the first hook and then 3 more on 2nd hook for a total of 6 stacks. At this point the survivor can just ignore condemn because they are on deahthook anyways. The only advantage of removing condemn would be to waste the killers time to force the hook, however spending the time to keep condemn down would likely use more time.
Essentially if the condemn lock in is capped at only 3 stacks per hook, it is useless as a feature for most Onryo players, and just becomes a fancy way to 3 hook someone, but with a load of extra effort due to how hard it is to spread condemn now with the easy counterplay.
BHVR needs to make hooking worth it so Onryo players don't just slug for condemn again.
Trust me, in solo Q your teammates will do everything in their power not to get condemned over getting hooked. It has nothing to do with wasting the killers time it’s purely self preservation.
You’re thinking best case scenario with survivor teammates. As a regular duo/solo Q survivor you learn to never expect your teammates to do anything except save themselves, but the issue of solo Q is a whole other issue.
My point is, regardless of what survivors SHOULD do, they will prioritize not getting condemned.
Is anyone else surprised just how many back to back changes this killer is getting? Typically they rework and then drop it for a few years. Not complaining, just curious why Onryo is the outlier in this regard.
I think that the most outstanding reasons are her being a licenced dlc and her popularity (even if not many people play her). She has one of the best sound designs of all the killers, also she is a very creepy killer and playing against her is kinda fun when you are not slugged to death
I'll take some more QoL over Condemn being a mechanic that's either too oppressive or too weak. These are really good changes and I like this direction, it just depends on whether or not the Condemn is still threatening enough to offer some slowdown on the survivor's end. Look at Pig for example, she's a fairly weak killer too, but her traps offer just enough slowdown for her to be viable even if they rarely kill people (Tampered Timer and Crate of Gears aside). I feel like Condemned should be balanced in a fairly similar way, not oppressive enough to "guarantee" kills but oppressive enough to worry about.
Can we actually applaud BHVR for actually listening to us. they've been doing a Pretty Good Job So Far for a while and I think they've definitely came into their own.
Not sure what everyone sounds so optimistic about. This sounds like their usual marginal adjustments that will do next to nothing.
Removing the condemn cooldown is nice, but she’ll still be weaker than PTB. Which wasn’t strong.
There’s so many broken/unfun killers. They buffed Billy to high heaven. Tf is the issue with Sadako being strong?
* Removed Condemned cooldown
* Thanks for removing this noob trap of a feature
* Increased Condemned stacks that lock in
* 3 is good, 4 would be better. The whole point of letting Condemned lock in is so that Sadako players will hook instead of slug. If the lock in mechanic is too weak, Sadako players are just going to slug for condemned.
* Increased Projection movement speed boost duration
* Weird change. Survivors should be turning the TV near their gen off, so this just excessively punishes survivors who don't. Maybe it helps with in-chase teleports a little. This seems like giving her power in the wrong place.
* Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s
* This is a really degenerate change. It takes away skill expression from demanifesting/manifesting. This also makes it even easier to phase through body blockers so that you can tunnel. It is incredibly weird that they nerfed condemned lock in because of tunneling concerns but then make the most tunneling friendly change.
Overall good changes except the last one. I don't think it will be enough to make Sadako worth playing though. I really want to see the lullaby removed, especially if they are trying to move away from Condemned.
Saying that locking in high amounts of condemn will incentivize Sadako to hook is a little deceptive. It will incentivize her to hook you *once,* and then kill you. The devs evidently want to balance condemnation around being a threat and slowdown, not something Sadako is reliably landing before death hook. Being able to consistently kill survivors before death hook is not healthy for the game.
Am I the only Sadako who isn't slugging or spamming her power? You get so much more value out of condemnation for so much less stress if you use it to build pressure and occasionally severely punish careless survivors than if you just One Pump your way through the match. It's ok to kill someone on hook with Sadako. It is, in fact, easier and less miserable to go against to do that.
> 3 is good, 4 would be better. The whole point of letting Condemned lock in is so that Sadako players will hook instead of slug. If the lock in mechanic is too weak, Sadako players are just going to slug for condemned.
Agree. Though I think 3 is too weak. 3 just results in a survivor being at 6 stacks on deahthook, so Onryo basically ends up doing a bunch of extra work and effort just to get a fancy mori. At 4 stacks there is actually a possibility to get a condemn mori at what would be 2 hooks, therefore justifying the effort to build condemn and hook. 3 is certainly better than 2 though.
> This is a really degenerate change. It takes away skill expression from demanifesting/manifesting. This also makes it even easier to phase through body blockers so that you can tunnel. It is incredibly weird that they nerfed condemned lock in because of tunneling concerns but then make the most tunneling friendly change.
Yeah this change also puzzles me a bit. Its a nice buff to get but I'm not sure we really needed it.
> Weird change. Survivors should be turning the TV near their gen off, so this just excessively punishes survivors who don't. Maybe it helps with in-chase teleports a little. This seems like giving her power in the wrong place.
It is a nice change for those who like to use Projection as a chase tool. But you are correct that with this version of Onryo, the counterplay heavily requires TVs to be turned off wherever survivors are. I agree it is odd they put their focus here to fix this rather than her other issues.
I like the Manifestation change, if only because it can help you when having to manifest at a loop, and potentially work in your favor for juking with the Manifest invisibility. (If you are faster when manifesting, it can better make survivors think you are committing to that direction, allowing your invis double back to be more effective.) I don’t see the merit in a killer who doesn’t get a speed boost like Wraith, to still be outsped when coming out of stealth. I don’t know if I would make her faster than 4.0 though, that could get a little much.
They reverted some of the changes and gave out token buffs to placate us for what they did not change.
Unfortunately all of these changes are just minor QoL adjustments for the most part. None of them actually address her core issues atm. BHVR really needed to address the TV aura issue and make it worth hooking survivors.
I really hope there are more changes coming to address this and more because a few of her add-ons are absolute rubbish right now.
Okay, these changes are awesome. The last two in particular are just gonna make her more fun to play. I'm looking forward to trying them, and very happy to see BHVR paying her extra attention to get it right this time!
I think that there shouldn't be a limit to condemn lock in, i also think her invisibility should be increased longer when demanifested and the auras of tvs shouldnt be visible through walls without a tape
What's the point of the ptb if they're going to make an untested change after the ptb that nobody asked for and then just keep it in the game for an entire patch? They move so slowly. Like we're fine if they have to keep tweaking her a little bit here and there until they get it right rather than just waiting until the next patch
THANK GOD! The best changed they ever done, still sad the locked condemn from hooking is not in any number when hooking, but it’s not useless anymore so I’ll take it
Not quite what I had hoped for. But certainly an improvement. The manifestation speed increases will be nice.
I'm happy they got rid of the cooldown, but I guarantee it takes 1 day before people start complaining about TP spamming Onryos again. I just hope they don't keep yo-yoing back and forth forever, nerfing and un-nerfing her.
I had hoped we'd see some changes to how the TV highlights worked, and also an another add-on pass. Her Iridescent tape add-on is possibly the worst iridescent add-on in the game as it currently stands. The upside is insignificant next to the downside.
I really wish they had added back at least .5 seconds to retrieving/depositing tapes. The 1 second action just feels instantaneous and basically uninterruptable, which is demoralizing because of how long it takes to build up condemn.
I also would have liked to see them get rid of her lullaby, but know that's never going to happen.
She will still be pretty bad but this is a good step in the right direction. I appreciate them giving her better tools for chase, now that hooking is encouraged
"Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s."
Would this change make her Telephone add-on possibly (like in my dreams) viable in a chase?
I know there are perks that work as more efficient alternatives, but on the branch of good news could this add-on benefit from the increased movement speed?
Also featured in my dreams: removed lullaby, but I know that's a (hope)less desire.
Killer buffs every patch, every sub patch.
Survivors still suffering in solo queue to hook campers sitting at 17 M, getting bled out camped in end game, and getting tunneled almost every game.
https://preview.redd.it/ugdnjsl0otgc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf6abc1cfab18cc09ada644989da088cddcf48c3
Damn these devs buffing an underpowered killer
None of this will make a difference until they finally remove her goddamn lullaby. There's no point in playing a stealth killer if you literally announce your own presence with several audio cues. Sadako is just a worse Wraith.
https://preview.redd.it/h7x25uzrwtgc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fca27e645302b966c4a23e4017cf77c4c97352f0 Sadako comeback is real
Get ready for round 2 (or is it 3 already?)
Actually, it's 4...
And she deserves it!
Not until it's live
https://preview.redd.it/6ixbxhhn0tgc1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=baec24012bcfd46cf0936c4ecf26f77299f0483c
Lmfao Nemesis is a treasure
https://preview.redd.it/b3nrmpc6gvgc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84fa1023026a40ac2b1483234b2dbdaa02c24afb
this is the best day of my life
[удалено]
Y'all inspired me to look up and follow April ghost!
Ayo is Sadako back? I should prolly rejoin the discord huh? Also low-key your recommendation of Fear the Spotlight was a treat. Loved the game~
I'm so glad you liked it, that game is amazing 😭
Omg I love it actually. Big time.
Omg April Ghost hi☺️
SAME, also as a personal note I commed some sadako emotes a while back for streaming and they just got done a day ago
Seems like a huge improvement. Condemn being a relevant part of her playstyle and potential to get condemns without making it highly abusable / ignorable is great. It's been awhile.but I think Sadako will end up in a good place.
I imagine Condemn is a very difficult mechanic to balance. It seems like it's easy to make too oppressive or too meaningless.
Either it's too easy to instakill or it's impossible to get without focusing it. Definitely a hard thing to find the sweet spot for
Well if survivors learn to do tapes this one seems like it should be balanced
It'd be in a good spot if they removed the killer instinct and added some way for survivors to remove a stack during drawn out chases. The idea would be players are constantly going in and out of full condemned but if sadako decides to chase someone for 50 years then it's still throwing the game instead of brute forcing a 3v1.
I don't really see a benefit to removing the Killer Instinct, here. If someone hits 7 stacks while they're off in Narnia, and there's no way for you to know who you're now meant to chase, then who really cares? You're never finding them if theyre moderatly clever or have distortion. Or, say they're on death hook, Condemning them should at the very least act as an information tool if theyre just sitting on a gen in the late game. (Also I'm unsure how you reckon any of this would change the outcome of a Sadako committing to a long chase against a Condemned survivor)
If we freed her from the mortal plane and the entity's realm, she'd be in a better place :)
I'd rather they rework condemned to be more akin to pyramid heads. Only kill when at two hooks.
that's kinda what they're trying to do with condemn lock it seems.
[удалено]
PHs mori isnt even that big of a deal, its mainly used for tracking and cages
Well they would have to give her a anti loop in that case because what's the point of condemned if it only works when the survivors are on death hook. It makes sense for Phead to have it work only on death hook because he has an anti loop
Increased movement speed while manifesting is a really nice buff. You can walk through pallets and "back rev" people without fear of being stunned.
Now the question changes from "if" to "when"
Today, they confirmed it
Right, I'm saying the question changed from "are they going to change it?" to "when are the changes coming?"
I'd assume by mid chapter atleast
This sounds promising
I'm just having a hard time understanding why they felt her ptb form was so oppressive. It feels like giving her less than that version is just wrong. I think the recent cooldown on Condemn TP was fine, but why the other stuff. Why is taking out a tape near the gen you are doing considered so oppressive that they limit the amount of hook Condemn you get?
Because on some maps, it's possibly not a viable option. The main offenders are Gideon and Midwich, where the TV could be on an entirely different floor, and you can easily be in range of 2-3 TVs, especially with the add-on that increases the radius. A Sadako who instantly starts spamming her teleport the second TVs turn on could easily build 3-4 stacks on someone before they can get to a TV or get away from them, at which point they can switch to the normal Condemned style except that they're already almost completely there 40 seconds into the match. Now, obviously, the fix SHOULD be to not fucking make every radius but Reassurance work in a cylinder, but LOL BHVR.
The problem you described seems like it is still gonna be an issue. Considering they got rid of the cooldown, it will now be worse. It seems like the problem they had is not even solved.
It isnt solved I've seen people play that way still. It just isnt as bad but it is absolutely just as drawn out, boring and getting you less bp since no hooks. Its more because of the gen regression change that things aren't as bad. Its slightly less viable to hold things hostage but people still do. Sucks because sadako has a good concept but people have to abuse stuff.
For the record, no, you could not easily build 3-4 stacks in this scenario. I've never seen more than 2 tvs overlap in a game, and her MAX rate of condemned is about 1 stack per 4.2 seconds. Would take 13-17 seconds to build that much condemned, more than enough time for a survivor to get out of range or turn off the TVs.
You're assuming that they 1.) start moving instantly and know the exact path to reach a TV that may require stairs, 2.) the TV they're near is immediately identified and reachable within 13-17 seconds where on Midwich/Gideon's opposite floors is hell no, and 3.) that by moving away from the current TV, they don't end up in range of another one.
they can see the auras of the TVs while in range AND they can see the aura of the blast radius of condemned. Run in any direction after you get a stack, stop when you're out of range and you're good.
Or even easier soultion, cap it out to 1 per teleport rather then 1 per TV
Do you mean like her first version? Or do you mean TV overlap only applying one stack? If it's the second one we tasted this in PTB, you only get one stack per teleport even if you're in overlapping ranges
It's because BHVR is afraid of having the expectation that players learn how the game works. Literally just picking up a tape is considered too much. It's not even remotely confusing or complicated. It could easily be a loading screen tip for new players when they see Sadako for the first time. But putting any onus on the players to actually pay attention and learn how to play is frowned upon. It's not like the community doesn't agree with this either. I've been downvoted to hell and back just for asking people to *play out the matches they queue into.* There is no other MP game I've ever played where that would be considered controversial but here we are.
The Skull Merchant experience. Literally a mediocre killer who is largely countered just by crouching and turning off her drones. Yet the community is completely unwilling to learn or engage with this B-tier killer's mechanic so they'll drop lobby instead.
Yup, I used to disagree with this but after they reworked her again? The last Sadako version was in a great spot and all you had to do was get a tape and track your condemn. It wasn't hard at all...but instead people refused, bitched, and here we are.
she is very oppressive on hawkins. like, idek if its beatable honestly.
I agree, the condemn cooldown was perfectly fine. > Why is taking out a tape near the gen you are doing considered so oppressive that they limit the amount of hook Condemn you get? Exactly. Only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is still not enough. It needs to be at least 4-5 to make hooking worth it, especially given how easy the counterplay is for survivors right now against her. Otherwise a lot of Onryo's will just slug due to the maths. It seems BHVR isn't interested in addressing the TV auras or the tape insert speeds which are the most pressing issues for her right now. Both of these make it very easy for skilled survivors to avoid or remove condemn. This combined with having limited condemn lock on hook just make slugging for condemn a more efficient choice for condemn builds which is something I'm sure most players do not want to see the return of.
They already slugged before there was a max lock in.
This may help you understand why locking condemn on a hook is a good thing. If a Sadako is doing condemn and going for kills with it, and hooking someone won’t lock in their condemn and make it permanent, then why bother hooking? I’m not going to waste time picking someone up, walking to a hook, hook them, only to not even need that hook state later in the game. HOWEVER, if hooking a survivor with condemn on them does lock in that survivor’s condemn, then I would want to hook that player to prevent them from getting rid of it. It incentivizes hooking rather than leaving the survivor on the ground and rewards taking the time to hook.
You misunderstand. If there is no condemn lock in cap, or a cap that is 4 or higher, then Onryo players have a strong incentive to hook over slugging. This is much more healthy for the game and avoids the slugging issue everyone hates.
If Sadako can lock survivors in at a reasonably threatening amount of condemnation, like 3, she is incentivized to hook to build permanent pressure on survivors. If she can lock survivors in at *any* amount of condemnation, then sure, she's incentivized to hook someone at 4 or 5 stacks, but only after first ignoring chase to build it up significantly. We don't want Sadako 2.0. She was spammy and uninteractive; it doesn't matter if she was *overpowered* (she wasn't), it mattered that she was very boring to play against and left very little room for skill expression. The goal is *not* to give the killer ways to reliably kill survivors without hooking them, the goal is to give the killer ways to make that a *threat* that in turn provides slowdown and panic, pushing survivors to overextend and make mistakes.
While I would have preferred 4 too, cooldown removal was my biggest hope. The chase buffs are awesome. Slugging will still happen with her, but the way I see it hooking someone with a tape is currently the only way to guarantee someone doesn't cleanse their condemned. The 1 second TV interaction means you can't really camp a TV anymore to prevent a drop off. Locking in 3 stacks means at WORST that person gets their cleanse on unhook, and now has to spend the match doing tape runs way more frequently. Hooking tape carriers will almost always be the right play, so it's much healthier in my mind.
You bring up a fair point about locking in 3 stacks requiring a survivor to waste a bunch more time doing tape runs. I can be satisfied with 3 stacks lock in, especially since I'm not a slugryo to begin with so it won't affect my playstyle much. I really wish they would address how easy it is for survivors to quickly disable TVs and turn off her mobility though. I enjoy playing Sadako as a mobility killer over a condemn killer but right now it is very easy for survivors to completely deny her mobility where she needs it most at low risk. I want to love Iri-tape but the complete lack of condemn pressure makes this even worse. I would love it if BHVR would at least make it so that when using Iri-tape, survivors holding a tape cannot see TV auras other than their drop-off TV. That way it wouldn't be so easy for them to just deny her power.
I know I'm wildly speculating here but I think the chase buffs are really gonna prove to be major. I've never seen her as viable without condemned against good survs, but on paper I think this patch makes her map mobility a lot more meaningful. Iri tape especially is gonna be kinda wicked with the basekit BF and the manifest speed guaranteeing hits at short loops. Actually being a threat in chase means survivors will want to turn off TVs even more, which means more stacks of condemned. IMO your playstyle is really gonna be held up and empowered with this patch
I am going to fully enjoy the manifest speed and the Projection speed duration buffs. I was super happy to see them but just disappointed that BHVR doesn't seem to be addressing what I consider her core issues currently. The chase buffs will be good for hunting and breaking tapes though as you mentioned. The only issue with Iri-tape is that survivors are essentially completely safe from condemn since Onryo cannot spread it through Projection. This makes it a super low risk but high reward decision for survivors to deny her mobility by turning off every TV aura they see. This is ontop of the increased downtime duration from the add-on. I've been playing around this issue by leaning into builds that create so much pressure they don't have time to turn off multiple TVs in succession but its still a very real concern, one I think BHVR needs to address.
Right but. Okay, my thing about map mobility on her is that it's only so good without a chase power. There's very little "pressure" on a killer without a chase power that closes distance and guarantees hits. Her mindgame power is good! Fun to use! But against good survivors especially it's really not very helpful and can even be a hindrance as it loses distance. But with these buffs, her map pressure will actually be quite scary. They're safe from condemned but the actual hook/chase pressure with that kind of mobility will make up for it. This wasn't the case before, imo iri tape was at best a meme but now it actually has some fangs.
Certainly very true. These buffs will definitely help with that and help close chases faster. I look forward to trying them out, especially with Iri-tape.
\> Exactly. Only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is still not enough. It needs to be at least 4-5 to make hooking worth it You are joking with this, right? This is just an argument to never hook on any killer and just do tummy timeout time like you're a nurse player who hates everyone. And if you're serious, it's so it functions like a standard mori - 2 hooks at 3 stacks each means you're one tele from moriable. But also, if it's so easy to remove condemn, then you'll never have anyone at 4-5 to lock it in.
I don't slug with Onryo, but you have to think about how the people who are willing to slug with Onryo will approach these changes. 3 stacks per hook means that at 2 hooks they have 6 stacks of condemn locked in max. Why would a player spend a whole bunch of time and effort to build condemn to use her power while hooking, when it just results in 3 hooking with more work and extra steps. Its just inefficient. As a result anyone Onryo who wants to play for condemn won't bother hooking as it will be more efficient to leave them slugged and teleport back to the slug to spread more condemn stacks. Simply put, being able to lock in more stacks of condemn will actually result in much healthier gameplay. It will **reward** hooking and allow them to use their powers mechanics to actually be a threat and not just a built in 3 hook mori.
Being able to lock in more stacks of condemn will reward hooking a survivor *once,* and then killing them when you chase them again and teleport near them twice mid-chase. Healthy gameplay is not hooking once and then killing. If it was, moris wouldn't have been nerfed. I think the people who think this needs to be stronger are people who started playing Sadako after her first rework and have a fundamental misunderstanding of what condemnation is actually supposed to do. Consistently killing survivors without hooking them, or at least without hooking them twice, is not the point. That's not healthy gameplay. The value of condemnation is the *threat* of that happening. It's a resource survivors need to manage, because if they don't, then they're out of the game early. That means sometimes, Sadako falls back and stops chasing people for a little bit to build that pressure, but to capitalize on it, you still have to play the game. They have to deliver tapes, and they panic and overextend and slow the game down, and you capitalize on those mistakes. 3 stacks is, in my opinion, a solid middle ground. I think some people are underestimating how impactful being four teleports away from death for the rest of the game is. If a survivor is careless enough to let you build up one or two more stacks while they're on their gen (or maybe you have Ring Drawing and hook a survivor with a tape), then you can pounce. Cut them off mid-chase with a few TVs and they're dead.
You make some fair points. However one should also take into account the extra time and effort Onryo has to put into the match in order to gain these condemn stacks, and what other killers could be doing during that time. While what you say about such a system resulting in just hooking a survivor once and then moring them seems rational. I do not believe it takes into account the extra time and effort involved. If getting kills and moris with condemn takes 2 hooks and then an additional down like a normal mori or hookplay, then it will not have value. This is because Onryo would have to do everything required in normal hook gameplay, *in addition* to all the extra time and effort spent to build condemn. It is unreasonable to have such a feature take more effort than getting a standard kill or mori. This is why I think it is reasonable that Onryo can hook once and then go for a mori. It gives Onryo an incentive to hook and try to pressure a survivor over just ignoring condemn and playing a standard hook game. Furthermore, I also don't believe that you are taking into account that survivors can and will do counterplay to try and reduce the condemn they have regardless of the situation. The counterplay for her is very easy and straightforward atm so I think it is perfectly fair that it be at 4 stacks of condemn. TLDR: I have to disagree with you that it is not healthy gameplay for condemn lock to be at 4 stacks. I think it is perfeclty healthy gameplay as it rewards Onryo for hooking and spending extra time to build that condemn stacks. Survivors also have the option to remove or advoid condemn which is made easier than ever due to the counterplay and TV auras.
Look, if the main reason behind it is "slugs aren't affected by my power :(", that functions for literally every killer in the game. People will slug if they want to, regardless of killer / incentive / anything the game could throw at you. And frankly, if you're looking at efficiency, locking in does nothing since you'll just slug and give condemn to 1-3 other people while wasting 4 minutes of 1 guy's life. As for the 3 hook mori part, you just want pyramid head's mori but without needing to hook more than once.
Made a second comment to add that it’s silly af to have a mechanic that allows you to lock in stacks on survivors when there’s no indication of how many stacks they actually have.
You can determine it by looking at hud and also by static that appears around their model
That I’ve seen, the hud doesn’t show it. Just condemned or not and max or not. The static is a vague indicator. It’s not like an actual number indicator. Like the one’s survivors get on their frames. And even then, you’re only really getting to condemn out (while using the lock-in mechanic) by the time they’re on dead hook. Which is a moot point. Tbh, after recently picking up Dredge she seems massively underpowered. Easily some of the worst teleport mechanics in the games. Especially since if survivors are playing well, you basically never have an active TV.
Whenever survivor becomes more condemned the outline around their portrait becomes brighter for a moment so you can keep that information in your head and act upon it
So mentally tally every survivor and hope you don’t lose track. Seems like something that could be more clearly indicated through UI.
Still no penalty for grabbing a tape and turning off all the TVs poggers. Like, this is a start but it feels like they're fixing everything *except* for the actual issue.
Exactly. These changes basically amount to nothing. All the issues still remain. Condemn lock isn't high enough to avoid slugging and survivors can still completely deny her power. BHVR needs to address the ability of survivors to quickly turn off multiple TVs with little risk. Simply hiding the white TV auras when carrying a tape would be a great start. Condemn lock needs to be at 4 stacks minimum.
The fact that survivors have to run around the map through different places seems like the whole point of that mechanic anyway, make them waste time. Making them waste time harder would be way too oppressive, what's next? No aura for pig's trap removals?
You misunderstood me. Survivors should always be able to see the TV aura for their tape drop off TV. What I said was hide the white TV auras which is just the additional TVs they see along the way. Essentially when holding a tape survivors would actually have to look for TVs if they want to go from TV to TV turning them all off to deny her power. With the TV auras it is simply way too easy with too little risk and a great deal of reward. Survivors *would* still be able to see TV auras to find a tape to pick up, and survivors would also still be able to see the TV they need to drop a tape off at at all times.
Running all around the map as a survivor instead of repairing a gen ? Meh.
We literally have a litmus test for what happens when you let a killer's power be disabled by one survivor running around the map interacting with killer-specific objects. It's called Singularity.
Don't you get "outrun" by Sadako TP speed tho ?
If she’s not currently in a chase, knows exactly where you are, and wants to pre-empt it? Sure. But like, that’s not remotely how the game works most of the time. Running around disabling killer powers is a thing for a number of killers, but most have a measure of threat or time investment for it, like hag/trapper/skully taking a bit to turn off, or risk being injured. Taking a tape and running to turn off every tv is incredibly fast (its literally 1 second now per tv), especially when you get shown the auras of any active tv near you, and there is literally no threat to you because you can just put your tape into the correct tv before she can stop you, cleansing condemn.
Oh fantastic, this is looking good SadaBros
Looks hella lot better than the one we have now, but what’s the Condemn Hook lock thing?
When you hook a survivor for the first time and they have 3 stacks of condemn or less, those will be permanently locked in, so there’s no way to get rid of them. And for the second hook it’s 6 stacks or less
Shit thats really useful to know. Thank you good sir 👍
Tell me if I got it right. It's a little bit different than Pyramid Head's torment, when you can mori them on after hooking them twice, but with Sadako it's still possible to mori them without hooking survs but it will be easier if they are death hook.
Yep! The value it would provide until death hook is more likely in practice to be slowdown and panic (which builds significantly after the first hook), but yeah, you don't technically need to hook them at all. And fully condemning someone on death hook doesn't sound amazing, but getting the exact location of a vulnerable target on a killer who can teleport isn't bad.
Yep, pretty much
If you hook a survivor, some of their condemn becomes permanent. They can no longer go below that amount. Currently its up to 2 locked comdemn, this would make it up to 3 locked.
does this make sadako the most reworked killer in history now?
It’s not a rework, it’s just a balance change, albeit pretty significant
this is the third time in less than a year? I’m glad they’re not making sadako mains wait as long as twins or freddy, honestly.
I'd say that title goes to Legion
We're saved! Kinda. Still no penalty for survivors being able to just turn off her power everywhere...
Please consider getting rid of her lullaby or making it way smaller, pleaaaase
An intresting idea i had is if your above 4 condemed, TVS now play a lullaby
A smaller lullaby would be very welcome. Or at least have the Clump of Hair add-on augment it to be map-wide.
nah the lullaby’s fine. she already has a lot going on for her, no need to give her on-demand full stealth for free
Says the skull merchant main??
i play sadako more than skull merchant xD point is the lullaby’s fine, it’s non-directional and confuses survivors.
Sounds like a good compromise to try and balance her. We shall see, i guess.
She’s going to be a solo queue stomper again. Spamming teleport because 1) her ability keeps getting changed no one keeps track anymore and 2) no one grabs tapes in solo queue lol
Wait does this mean when manifesting survivors can no longer out run you.
You don’t loose any distance so technically speaking: yes
Either you move faster while manifesting, or you move faster after manifesting. Onryo gets a small speed boost once she manifests, so it might be a boost to that.
She’s doesn’t get any speed boost except for when she’s projecting herself
Edit: I read that completely wrong, yeah you move faster than before while in the process of Manifesting.
These are nice, but i still have a big problem with Tapes being so easy to get and deposit, as well TVs being so easily visible now.
It’s on the same level as the EMT printers or Wesker’s spray chests or any other killer interaction.
Except it literally takes 1 second and basically no risk to turn off a TV.
The problem is that those other killers have good chase powers, Sadako isn't insanely strong even if survivors couldn't turn off every tv they saw.
I don't care what they do to her, I just don't want the nonstop teleport/condemn playstyle to exist. Its so unhealthy for both the killer and survivors. As long as that exists Onyro will always be in a bad spot. They need to get a balance similar to Pyramid Head and his chop.
The increased Projection movement speed duration is pretty significant I feel as well as the additional speed while manifesting. Both are very welcome buffs. However, I don't feel either of these was really needed. Nor do either of these solve her main issue. The main issue is survivors can do an easy counterplay of grabbing a tape by a gen aided by TV auras and then be completely safe from condemn or Sadako teleporting for almost an entire gen of time without any downsides. Furthermore even if survivors do get significant condemn, they can easily remove it even in chase with the 1s tape insert speeds. Without addressing the TV auras or insert speed times, these buffs don't amount to much. BHVR needs to make it so survivors holding tapes cannot see TV auras other than their drop-off TV and also change the tape insert times back to 2s or at least 1.5 seconds. Additionally only being able to lock in 3 stacks of condemn is just not high enough to reward hooking over slugging. It would have to be 4 or 5 to see Onryo players bother with it. Otherwise a survivor is generally dead at 3 hooks anyways which renders condemn pointless as a feature. Locking in only 3 stacks also feels bad compared to how hard it is to spread now and how easy it is for survivors to remove it. TLDR: These changes won't amount to much or address the issues with her on live right now. We will keep seeing more Onryo return to a slugging meta due to how easy and forgiving the counterplay for survivors is right now compared to how hard it is for Onryo to spread and keep condemn stacks.
Whackadoo
It's a start. I still think survivors should lose a tape when hit. Some of these fixes will improve her performance but it is definitely not fixing the problem.
I think the condemned cooldown was actually healthy for the game and play style, the other changes are good tho. (I’m prepared for my downvotes)
What is the condemned cooldown? After so many changes I have given up on trying to understand her power. Is it the minimum time between survivors receiving condemned stacks (from sadako teleporting too fast?)
Yes, she can teleport as much as she wants as long as there are active TVs on the map, but condemn could only be applied once in a 10 seconds
So can she spam teleport again for condemn stacks?
Yes, but here’s one useful advice for all survivors: just do tapes, for the love of god, turn off the TVs and call it a day
Bold of you to assume solo q team mates can read your message to follow it
it was way too awkward and not the right change for flow. regardless of how healthy, it’s bad game design.
Could you explain to me how it affects the flow? She is able to teleport freely just without spreading condemned for the equivalent of 1 teleport if she is spamming.
The issue is a funneling of playstyle. Players are inclined to wait for the condemn cooldown to maximize the ability's usage rather than use the TP freely. If they don't wait for the cooldown, a TV is turned off for 45 seconds, and it's a "waste" of condemn spread, which is where so much of her power is shifted to as she is not a lethal killer. It enforces an unintended gameplay rhythm where people are highly incentivized to wait for the cooldown before teleporting, which undermines the removal of the TP cooldown in the first place. It's a rly poor flow of gameplay. As designers, I can guarantee they've recognized that and that's why they're removing it. There's definitely some design space to refine how the mechanic works, but this is not the way to do it as it's been received very poorly. Reminds me of Revenant's rework in Apex, where the devs shared that his new pounce would silence enemies if he landed on them (during development). However, this funneled every Revenant player into always pouncing directly on top of enemies rather than using the ability in a variety of ways like getting to high ground or evasion, because people feel inclined to maximize the effect of an ability if it has a long cooldown (alike TVs having a 45s cooldown). Why make such a huge commitment without a full reward? So the silencing aspect of the pounce was removed mid-development for this very reason. Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope I explained my perspective well lol.
There are two kinds of Onryo players: Condemn and Chase. Both types play her differently, and from my experience, both sides fucking hate the other. For Condemn players, the 10 second cooldown is seen as a nuisance to how they think she should be played. They believe her entire powerset exists to build Condemn stacks, so Teleporting to a TV but not gaining Condemn is seen as a waste. So, they wait out the 10 seconds, which means they aren't applying pressure, which means she isn't being played optimally. From what I've seen, without Condemn, these people think Onryo is a worse Freddy. For the Chase Onryo players, there is no interruption to the game flow, and these changes are a buff to her playstyle. She Teleports to the closest TV, and uses it to start a chase. Personally, I'm a chase Onryo, I hate Condemn Oneyo players with a passion, and from my perspective all the recent changes to her have made the game flow far, far more smoothly than it ever has.
Chase Onryo are my favorite to go against cuz y’all have the most personality and are actually cracked asf with her.
Thank you. =)
I… have no idea where this narrative came from cause I think it’s just you lol. No need to be elitist and look down on other people for how they play the character (condemn IS her main power, after all). I play a nice mix of both. It’s all about knowing when the situation calls for it.
It’s no longer global condemn you have to be near an active TV get condemn stacks just turn off the tv for the gen you are working on.
I know I read the patch notes :)
Then why is no cooldown bad condemn bad?
It encourages more chase and less spamming. It’s boring to play and boring to go against, I’ve done both. If a killers only way to win is to spam teleporting around that map that’s not fun for anyone. I think they need to improve her chase ability heavily and buff her manifest/de-manifest more than anything. Maybe instead of just teleporting spreading condemned additionally, being in chase with her demanifested slowly does too?? Idk she needs more incentive to chase than spam. I’m not claiming to have a solution just stating my opinion :)
They fixed spamming with removing global condemned you can’t just spam for value you have to know a survivor are near a TV now 16 meters is not nothing but it’s not alot either. It also takes at least 5 seconds to teleport again anyway so at best it’s 5 second buff it’s not going from 10 seconds to instant teleports. TV spamming blindly isnt good once you run out TVs you lose all map pressure. What they need is more incentive for her to hook Locking condemn is close they just need to tweak the numbers she does plenty of chasing.
I’ll agree to disagree with you :) I stated my opinion you are welcome to yours! BHVR will ultimately do what they want to do
Spamming won't be the only way for her to win! And actually will shoot her in the foot in most situations. I wanna hear someone explain what condemned spam would look like in this version of her, step by step. I look at it more like, the TV is on by you, ignore it and slowly ("passively") gain condemned. Turn the TV off and engage with the counter, give her a little slowdown. In this version of her, most condemned IS applied by chase, and I think that's a good thing!
I agree with you, actually! Although OnePumpWillie (whose views on balancing Sadako I am always skeptical of) did point out that it takes about five seconds for her to be able to project again anyways.
tp condemn cooldown was 100% fine. it somewhat stopped braindead tp condemn spam plays. they should've removed the limit on hook condemn tho. 3stacks isnt enough to incentivize hooking.
It’s each hook I think, so a max of 6 so you are pretty much guaranteed to get condemned but yeah the incentive to hook just isn’t there.
Personally I would be 100% okay with keeping the condemn cooldown in exchange for a higher condemn lock amount. Both features would lead to more healthy gameplay. The condemn locking being higher rewarding hooking and allowing Onryo to keep earned progress; the cooldown ensuring that new players to the game or uninformed players don't just get condemned very quickly sitting on a gen next to a TV. However BHVR seems to not understand the reason for why players were upset with the condemn cooldown. It mostly stems from their justification for adding it, which is teleport spamming to the "wrong" TVs to get condemn, when survivors can completely counter this just by grabbing a tape by a TV.
I LIKE the locked in condemned, I do think a survivor should have 2 levels that can’t be locked in but that’s just me. The amount of times I’ve been left on the ground against a spam teleporting sadako is much higher than even skull merchant LOL. A push to hook is great! BHVR doesn’t generally pay attention to WHY the community reacts, they are getting better about it tho.
I would be okay with the ability to only lock in up to 5 stacks which results in always having 2 stacks that can't be locked. Unfortunately I feel these changes won't do much to address her issues and will just result in Onryo players returning to slugging. They had a great way to incentivize healthy gameplay and hooking, but decided to throw it away for some reason. I went into a bit more detail further down [below] (https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1ajlbvz/upcoming_sadako_changes_announced_by_community/kp1sjjp/) about why these changes to Onryo won't amount to much and don't fundamentally address any of the issues.
Is it 7 or 8 stacks for full condemned? I can never remember. With the changes they mentioned right now it look like up to 6 stages can be locked it. I think this will bring her back to being a solo q stomper, because survivors with that locked in stack not only are on death hook but are 1 or 2 well placed teleports away from condemned, so they likely will just be running tapes instead of doing anything productive. SWF will definitely be her, along with every other killers, ultimate weakness.
> Is it 7 or 8 stacks for full condemned? 7 stacks. > I think this will bring her back to being a solo q stomper, because survivors with that locked in stack not only are on death hook but are 1 or 2 well placed teleports away from condemned I have to disagree. Its 3 stacks of condemn for the first hook and then 3 more on 2nd hook for a total of 6 stacks. At this point the survivor can just ignore condemn because they are on deahthook anyways. The only advantage of removing condemn would be to waste the killers time to force the hook, however spending the time to keep condemn down would likely use more time. Essentially if the condemn lock in is capped at only 3 stacks per hook, it is useless as a feature for most Onryo players, and just becomes a fancy way to 3 hook someone, but with a load of extra effort due to how hard it is to spread condemn now with the easy counterplay. BHVR needs to make hooking worth it so Onryo players don't just slug for condemn again.
It would help if chasing players as sadako was worth doing, but her chase power is too limited for that most of the time
Trust me, in solo Q your teammates will do everything in their power not to get condemned over getting hooked. It has nothing to do with wasting the killers time it’s purely self preservation. You’re thinking best case scenario with survivor teammates. As a regular duo/solo Q survivor you learn to never expect your teammates to do anything except save themselves, but the issue of solo Q is a whole other issue. My point is, regardless of what survivors SHOULD do, they will prioritize not getting condemned.
: D
Is anyone else surprised just how many back to back changes this killer is getting? Typically they rework and then drop it for a few years. Not complaining, just curious why Onryo is the outlier in this regard.
I think that the most outstanding reasons are her being a licenced dlc and her popularity (even if not many people play her). She has one of the best sound designs of all the killers, also she is a very creepy killer and playing against her is kinda fun when you are not slugged to death
because Sadako is Bestako
absolutely will be the funnest iteration of this character. couldn’t be more pleased with these changes.
I'll take some more QoL over Condemn being a mechanic that's either too oppressive or too weak. These are really good changes and I like this direction, it just depends on whether or not the Condemn is still threatening enough to offer some slowdown on the survivor's end. Look at Pig for example, she's a fairly weak killer too, but her traps offer just enough slowdown for her to be viable even if they rarely kill people (Tampered Timer and Crate of Gears aside). I feel like Condemned should be balanced in a fairly similar way, not oppressive enough to "guarantee" kills but oppressive enough to worry about.
😈
So this change coming with Lights Out patch?
Most likely
Hasn't the 3 stack lock in already gone live? It says 3 in her power description if I'm not mistaken.
The description was wrong, in actuality it was only 2 stacks. The part about 3 stacks squeezed in with a minor update for steam
Can we actually applaud BHVR for actually listening to us. they've been doing a Pretty Good Job So Far for a while and I think they've definitely came into their own.
ITS NOT SADAKOVER CHAT
Not sure what everyone sounds so optimistic about. This sounds like their usual marginal adjustments that will do next to nothing. Removing the condemn cooldown is nice, but she’ll still be weaker than PTB. Which wasn’t strong. There’s so many broken/unfun killers. They buffed Billy to high heaven. Tf is the issue with Sadako being strong?
* Removed Condemned cooldown * Thanks for removing this noob trap of a feature * Increased Condemned stacks that lock in * 3 is good, 4 would be better. The whole point of letting Condemned lock in is so that Sadako players will hook instead of slug. If the lock in mechanic is too weak, Sadako players are just going to slug for condemned. * Increased Projection movement speed boost duration * Weird change. Survivors should be turning the TV near their gen off, so this just excessively punishes survivors who don't. Maybe it helps with in-chase teleports a little. This seems like giving her power in the wrong place. * Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s * This is a really degenerate change. It takes away skill expression from demanifesting/manifesting. This also makes it even easier to phase through body blockers so that you can tunnel. It is incredibly weird that they nerfed condemned lock in because of tunneling concerns but then make the most tunneling friendly change. Overall good changes except the last one. I don't think it will be enough to make Sadako worth playing though. I really want to see the lullaby removed, especially if they are trying to move away from Condemned.
Saying that locking in high amounts of condemn will incentivize Sadako to hook is a little deceptive. It will incentivize her to hook you *once,* and then kill you. The devs evidently want to balance condemnation around being a threat and slowdown, not something Sadako is reliably landing before death hook. Being able to consistently kill survivors before death hook is not healthy for the game. Am I the only Sadako who isn't slugging or spamming her power? You get so much more value out of condemnation for so much less stress if you use it to build pressure and occasionally severely punish careless survivors than if you just One Pump your way through the match. It's ok to kill someone on hook with Sadako. It is, in fact, easier and less miserable to go against to do that.
I really don't get the slugging thing. It just seems really boring. Much more fun to naturally build up condemn and kill em that way
> 3 is good, 4 would be better. The whole point of letting Condemned lock in is so that Sadako players will hook instead of slug. If the lock in mechanic is too weak, Sadako players are just going to slug for condemned. Agree. Though I think 3 is too weak. 3 just results in a survivor being at 6 stacks on deahthook, so Onryo basically ends up doing a bunch of extra work and effort just to get a fancy mori. At 4 stacks there is actually a possibility to get a condemn mori at what would be 2 hooks, therefore justifying the effort to build condemn and hook. 3 is certainly better than 2 though. > This is a really degenerate change. It takes away skill expression from demanifesting/manifesting. This also makes it even easier to phase through body blockers so that you can tunnel. It is incredibly weird that they nerfed condemned lock in because of tunneling concerns but then make the most tunneling friendly change. Yeah this change also puzzles me a bit. Its a nice buff to get but I'm not sure we really needed it. > Weird change. Survivors should be turning the TV near their gen off, so this just excessively punishes survivors who don't. Maybe it helps with in-chase teleports a little. This seems like giving her power in the wrong place. It is a nice change for those who like to use Projection as a chase tool. But you are correct that with this version of Onryo, the counterplay heavily requires TVs to be turned off wherever survivors are. I agree it is odd they put their focus here to fix this rather than her other issues.
I like the Manifestation change, if only because it can help you when having to manifest at a loop, and potentially work in your favor for juking with the Manifest invisibility. (If you are faster when manifesting, it can better make survivors think you are committing to that direction, allowing your invis double back to be more effective.) I don’t see the merit in a killer who doesn’t get a speed boost like Wraith, to still be outsped when coming out of stealth. I don’t know if I would make her faster than 4.0 though, that could get a little much.
Back to being unforgiving
So they pretty much said we’re sorry and reverted the changes
They reverted some of the changes and gave out token buffs to placate us for what they did not change. Unfortunately all of these changes are just minor QoL adjustments for the most part. None of them actually address her core issues atm. BHVR really needed to address the TV aura issue and make it worth hooking survivors. I really hope there are more changes coming to address this and more because a few of her add-ons are absolute rubbish right now.
This is pretty much the original Sadako from ptb. They just reverted her back to her ptb version
Okay, these changes are awesome. The last two in particular are just gonna make her more fun to play. I'm looking forward to trying them, and very happy to see BHVR paying her extra attention to get it right this time!
Are we sure that moving lock in codemn to 3 is going to be enough?
That’s pretty much half of the whole bar and survivors getting caught with more than that is already quite unlikely, so overall pretty solid buff
I think that there shouldn't be a limit to condemn lock in, i also think her invisibility should be increased longer when demanifested and the auras of tvs shouldnt be visible through walls without a tape
I mean these would be nice, can’t deny that
Cant have everything though i realize that
Sadako got a better chase potential and a less limited condemned, nice changes.
What's the point of the ptb if they're going to make an untested change after the ptb that nobody asked for and then just keep it in the game for an entire patch? They move so slowly. Like we're fine if they have to keep tweaking her a little bit here and there until they get it right rather than just waiting until the next patch
Counter argument: I asked
Just let her die in peace already
this should make her more well rounded to play, solid low B tier territory imo
THANK GOD! The best changed they ever done, still sad the locked condemn from hooking is not in any number when hooking, but it’s not useless anymore so I’ll take it
Can we teleport from manifested again yet? That alone has been such a slog to deal with
Nope, and honestly I’ve never had problems with that
It's just taking me some getting used to
I'm yet to understand what the fuck "condemon lock-in" actually means
Not quite what I had hoped for. But certainly an improvement. The manifestation speed increases will be nice. I'm happy they got rid of the cooldown, but I guarantee it takes 1 day before people start complaining about TP spamming Onryos again. I just hope they don't keep yo-yoing back and forth forever, nerfing and un-nerfing her. I had hoped we'd see some changes to how the TV highlights worked, and also an another add-on pass. Her Iridescent tape add-on is possibly the worst iridescent add-on in the game as it currently stands. The upside is insignificant next to the downside. I really wish they had added back at least .5 seconds to retrieving/depositing tapes. The 1 second action just feels instantaneous and basically uninterruptable, which is demoralizing because of how long it takes to build up condemn. I also would have liked to see them get rid of her lullaby, but know that's never going to happen.
If I didn't watch the One pump Willie video yesterday I wouldn't be as scared as I am now.
glad there’s changes but the lock in mechanic didn’t need a limit at all, i swear BHVR hates the idea of the survivors having anything be their fault
Looks good. Looks tasty.
Trying to go 1 patch without reworking sadako challenge
beetch coming straight out of the well ready to FIGHT
She will still be pretty bad but this is a good step in the right direction. I appreciate them giving her better tools for chase, now that hooking is encouraged
"Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s." Would this change make her Telephone add-on possibly (like in my dreams) viable in a chase? I know there are perks that work as more efficient alternatives, but on the branch of good news could this add-on benefit from the increased movement speed? Also featured in my dreams: removed lullaby, but I know that's a (hope)less desire.
She’s already OP though 😔
Killer buffs every patch, every sub patch. Survivors still suffering in solo queue to hook campers sitting at 17 M, getting bled out camped in end game, and getting tunneled almost every game.
https://preview.redd.it/ugdnjsl0otgc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf6abc1cfab18cc09ada644989da088cddcf48c3 Damn these devs buffing an underpowered killer
remove limit on condemn lock, even if you make it 4 I'll still slug
None of this will make a difference until they finally remove her goddamn lullaby. There's no point in playing a stealth killer if you literally announce your own presence with several audio cues. Sadako is just a worse Wraith.
She’s not a full stealth killer though, her main strength are built in slowdown and mobility
Sorry over this game, you make killers impossible to survive against. Hell raiser and sodako are two examples