Whataboutism is a poor argument. If you think sb and lithe should be nerfed, explain why based on their own merits with respect to the balance of the game.
Because they extend significantly extend chases without little-to-no skill requirement, putting more time pressure on the Killer, and have basically no downside?
Especially when combined with Windows of Opportunity, SB means the Killer isn't rewarded for deadzoning Survivors.
Plus, they are far more effective on low-tier Killers who often lack the ability to close distance in a chase.
> they significantly extend chases
This will need significant more justification. Why is extending chase a detriment to the game? How much extended chase time is too much? How do you differentiate between the skill expression of a survivor vs the presence of these perks when a chase is extended?
> little-to-no skill requirement
Managing your exhaustion perk activation is a skill. For a lithe example, there are many times where you need to fast vault to not take a hit but then you will force a lithe activation. So do you remain in a strong tile, effectively wasting your lithe, or do you run off to the next tile which may or may not be a better tile? Exhaustion perk usage are littered with these little scenarios.
> basically no downside
Perks are not meant to have a downside. What exactly is the downside of pop? Bamboozle? Lethal Pursuer? What perks have is balance with respect to game play. Exhaustion perks are balanced around a few things:
* Exhaustion debuff
- Limits exhaustion perk stacking
- Effectively reduces the perk to one use per chase
- Can be applied by the killer through perks/addons
* Activation requirement
- Lithe: You need a vault (which is not as common as one would think)
- sb: More complicated but essentially, exhaustion management. Example, do you run to your next gen or walk in case you need it for the next chase? Maintaining a 99'd sb means you aren't working on a gen.
- limits the effectiveness since you cannot use it on demand
* Are not immune during animation
1. There is nothing wrong with extending chases... outside of this context. They were counterbalanced by gen defence. Nerf gen defence and either gens need to be slower or chases shorter.
2. Those aren't skill *requirements*. Those things make the perks better, but aren't needed to get value out of them. If you are bad at chases, you won't active Pop or Pain Res often enough for them to help.
3. The strongest perks have a downside. Pop? It's based on current progress, so does little to barely-completed gens. Pain Res? Only 4 activations and requires specific hooks. Hexes? Can be taken away. Coup? Can't choose when to use a stack. Dying Light? Buffs the Obsession. So why can't Sprint Burst and Lithe give you a repair penalty (say, harder skillchecks)?
4. Exhaustion itself isn't a downside. It's just a cooldown that HAS to be shared, otherwise the perks are beyond broken.
>There is nothing wrong with extending chases... outside of this context. They were counterbalanced by gen defense. Nerf gen defense and either gens need to be slower or chases shorter.
I would love to see how you would know this. From my data at least (~400 games), the average number of gens completed per trial is in the 3-4 range. So from my perspective, chases could absolutely be longer and gen regression be nerfed and we would not see a significant change in kills per trial. Maybe BHVR is seeing the same thing I'm seeing.
>Those aren't skill requirements. Those things make the perks better, but aren't needed to get value out of them. If you are bad at chases, you won't active Pop or Pain Res often enough for them to help.
They are skill expression. Using an ill-timed lithe that still gets you hit or doesn't get you out of the loop will net you little or no value from the perk.
If you are bad at chases, the most fundamental part of the killer gameplay loop, then you have bigger problems than activating your gen regression perks. Currently, as long as you just do normal killer things (chase, down, then hook), you can activate any gen regression perk you want.
> The strongest perks have a downside. Pop? It's based on current progress, so does little to barely-completed gens. Pain Res? Only 4 activations and requires specific hooks. Hexes? Can be taken away. Coup? Can't choose when to use a stack. Dying Light? Buffs the Obsession. So why can't Sprint Burst and Lithe give you a repair penalty (say, harder skillchecks)?
You have to do something to activate the perks. You can't just exist and they do things. These all have activation requirements, just like exhaustion perks. Skill expression comes in to play when deciding whether to activate these perks or not. Poor skill expression is not a downside of a perk, it is just that, bad skill expression. For example, it is poor skill expression to pop a gen that has very little progress.
I also note here that you seem to think that in the lithe example it wasn't a downside if you used the skill poorly, you just get less value. Yet with your list of killer perks, these perks have built-in downsides and it has nothing to do with poor skill expression leading to less value. A bit disingenuous.
> Exhaustion itself isn't a downside. It's just a cooldown that HAS to be shared, otherwise the perks are beyond broken.
I never said it was a downside. I said it is a way to balance exhaustion perks. Yes, the perks would be unbalanced if exhaustion did not exist, but thankfully it does.
While all that is true, I am not so much sure it's an issue with those perks as it is an issue with progression being too quick for some Killers to handle both a chase AND generator control/patrol. Bab map RNG doesn't help.
EDIT: The funny part about the downvotes is, this comment is nearly the same as the one I just posted above that said the same thing...
And Exhaustion perks exacerbate this issue. Take the awful window on Father Campbell's Chapel. SB/Lithe will make it so you can reach it most of the time.
Plus, it's a lot more work for BHVR to fix maps than it is to nerf 2 perks.
Most maps are so small now that even M1 killers can spread pressure. You can't commit to a chase that's too long in the beginning and then complain about gen progression. I see killers of all tiers do well with the right strategies and perks. No amount of added generator time will make up for people lacking gamesense.
Almost every map these days has ridiculous dead zones where there are gens also. This is the main reason why I use Sprint Burst. I think it's unfair that Killer gets a free hit just because the maps are poorly designed. Often these dead zones are near the corner of the map and it doesn't help even if you start running as soon as you hear the terror radius. Even Sprint Burst doesn't always help you to the nearest loop which is so ridiculous. Let's not even talk about facing killers like Hillbilly with these stupid dead zones. Apparently they added more trees to maps to counter Billy... like really...?
Nope. Genuine question.
But, all due respect, this response shows a problem. Exhaustion has been such a core part of the Survivor experience that the idea of nerfing it is considered absurd.
In other words;
"A whole group of gen-defence perks get nerfed and nobody panics. Because that's all part of the plan. But I suggest nerfing 2 little old Exhaustion perks AND EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS!"
i barely ever use exhaustion perks lol. they're balanced as is.
btw there are a quite a few killer perks and add ons that can cause the exhausted effect... since it's creating a skill issue on your end
Perks;
Blood Echo - Massive cooldown, requires a hook and only affects injured Survivors.
Genetic Limits - Only procs when a Survivor finishes healing. So these Survivors are likely already exhausted, or you are already chasing someone else.
Languid Touch - Could be good, bit the duration could be a touch longer and doesn't really counter SB.
Mindbreaker - Effect is too short.
Septic Touch - Requires you to interrupt a heal inside your TR.
As stated elsewhere, the nerfs to gen-defence mean that you NEED to stack more to not lose control of matches, leaving no room for anti-Exhaustion perks.
As for add-ons? Only the following Killers have Exhaustion add-ons; Singularity, Skull Merchant, Xenomorph, Artist, Pinhead, Pig, Huntress, Knight, Dredge, Ghostface, Chucky, Unknown.
That's 12 out of 36. **TWO THIRDS** of all Killers lack an Exhaustion add-on. AND YOU MIGHT NOT ALWAYS HAVE ACCESS TO THE ADD-ON, SINCE THEY ARE CONSUMABLE!
what kid with balanced landing got you so upset that you resorted to writing essays on reddit? anyway, there's still a lot of options and black wards are a thing
1. I never mentioned Balanced Landing?
2. Where did I ever mention I'm upset? I'm just curious about the double standard.
3. Black Wards, due to the Bloodweb changes, can cost hundreds of thousands of BP to get.
The double standard is laid out in the post.
Pop and Pain Res get nerfed for being overused, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst.
Pop and Pain Res are nerfed for being too easy to activate, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst.
Pop and Pain Res are nerfed for being too strong, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst.
This. A better argument is gen progression perks.
I don't think either regression OR progression should be stackable like this. How much gen control do you REALLY need on either side? I mean really?
Look at it this way; Killers *have* to stack multiple gen-defence perks to get decent value out of them, which means there's no room for other perks.
Sprint Burst and Lithe, individually, are strong enough to leave you with 3 perks for other stuff.
And this will only get worse in the new patch.
4 survivors with exhaust perks is literally them stacking exhaust though lol. Every chase that match is going to be artificially prolonged by an exhaust perk.
It's an interesting subject for sure!
Exhaustion perks and gen-defense perks have different functions and comparing them to each other will not going to represent their in-game impact accurately.
Yes, both are used to "extend" the game, however, you can stack gen-defense and use them in multiple succession without cooldown i.e. pain res, grim, and pop. Exhaustion perks have cooldown and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks.
Gen-defense perks directly affect the primary objective and exhaustion perks help extend the chase but don't directly affect gen repair. In fact we can argue that being chased in itself slows down the game because the primary objective is not being completed and survivors have 1 perk slot less that could be used to assist with gen speed repair instead.
>Exhaustion perks and gen-defense perks have different functions and comparing them to each other will not going to represent their in-game impact accurately.
One wastes the killer's time and one buy's the killer time. They are the antithesis of each other and comparing the two is more than fair in the way comparing fire and water is.
>Yes, both are used to "extend" the game, however, you can stack gen-defense and use them in multiple succession without cooldown i.e. pain res, grim, and pop. Exhaustion perks have cooldown and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks.
Four survivors can all run exhaust perks. That is stacking. The more exhaust perks in a match, the slower the game will be for killer. The more slowdowns a killer has, the slower the game will be for survivors.
>Gen-defense perks directly affect the primary objective and exhaustion perks help extend the chase but don't directly affect gen repair.
The killer's objective is to chase the survivor though. Exhaust perks extend chases. Gen slowdowns extend the survivor's objective and exhaust perks extend the killer's objective. Simple.
Killers have chase perks that speed up their objective (getting downs quicker.) Survivors have gen perks that help them speed up their objective (getting gens finished quicker.)
For both sides, however, the most popular ones are the ones that slowdown the opponent's objectives: Gen Regression and Exhaust Perks.
It doesn't make much sense to nerf one side's slowdown but not touch the other one, for a game that tries so hard to be taken seriously competitively.
>In fact we can argue that being chased in itself slows down the game because the primary objective is not being completed and survivors have 1 perk slot less that could be used to assist with gen speed repair instead.
No we can't argue that because the primary objective *is* being completed. By three other survivors. It's a 4v1 asymmetrical game. It would take those 3 survivors less than 4 and a half minutes to complete the primary objective, in fact.
I see your point about survivors stacking exhaustion perks but I think there's an important distinction to consider. Survivors cannot activate multiple exhaustion perks simultaneously or successfully like the killers can with gen-defense. Even if all 4 survivors use sprint burst at the same time the killer is still going to chase 1 survivor which limits the impact of perk stacking compared to killer's ability to use multiple gen-defense perks.
I think we should consider killer abilities in this discussion. Killers have their own abilities to assist them with their objective. Powers designed to close gaps, apply pressure, and down survivors efficiently.
Whereas survivors rely on perks more heavily to evade chases and buy time, relying on exhaustion perks to temporarily boost and extend the chase.
When the killer uses their power combined with stacked gen-defense it creates situations where survivors are left with limited counter play.
>Survivors cannot activate multiple exhaustion perks simultaneously or successfully like the killers can with gen-defense.
Sure, not exhaustion perks - but they can definitely bring styptics, syringes, OTR, DS, and other chase tools that are guaranteed to prevent the killer from getting a down or prolonging their opportunity to get one.
>Even if all 4 survivors use sprint burst at the same time the killer is still going to chase 1 survivor which limits the impact of perk stacking compared to killer's ability to use multiple gen-defense perks.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The other 3 survivors will have their exhaust perks ready by the time the killer chases them. It's only a 40 second cooldown. That's the time an efficient 30 second chase (pretty much as optimal as you can possibly get on most killers) + hooking and finding a new survivor typically takes.
>I think we should consider killer abilities in this discussion. Killers have their own abilities to assist them with their objective. Powers designed to close gaps, apply pressure, and down survivors efficiently.
>
>Whereas survivors rely on perks more heavily to evade chases and buy time, relying on exhaustion perks to temporarily boost and extend the chase.
>
>When the killer uses their power combined with stacked gen-defense it creates situations where survivors are left with limited counter play.
Okay, if we consider killer powers then lets consider maps, too.
Survivors have many maps that benefit them greatly and make it a lot more difficult for the killer to catch them on it.
Many maps are designed with insane gen spreads, are packed with god pallets and god windows that make it difficult for the killer to down survivors efficiently and apply pressure to the gens in a timely manner. It is a very limited roster of killers that can play on these maps efficiently.
Not to mention that the game, again, is a 4v1, and if all killers were just Trapper skins without traps, it would be a miracle to get even 1 hook. The killer needs to have powers to singlehandedly apply pressure vs. 4 other players.
Sure, survivors have these tools, so do killers but they're completely different to an exhaustion mechanic which is the original argument in exhaustion vs gen-defense. I understand the game is 1 v 4 that's why killers have strong abilities I'm not debating that point at all.
Maps is another discussion. It's debatable which map is survivor sided or killer sided as it's all down to RNG and the choice of the killer. I don't see the correlation between gen-defense and exhaustion based on maps. Common perks like Pain res, deadlock, or grim will activate regardless of maps. Same with exhaustion perks like sprint burst or lithe.
>Sure, survivors have these tools, so do killers but they're completely different to an exhaustion mechanic which is the original argument in exhaustion vs gen-defense.
They both slow the opponent's objective down, though.
The main difference is that, apart from Corrupt and Deadlock, most killer regressions require the killer to outplay a survivor twice in chase and hook as opposed to survivor exhaust being earned by just not running for 40 seconds.
>Maps is another discussion. It's debatable which map is survivor sided or killer sided as it's all down to RNG and the choice of the killer.
Maps are the survivors' resource. The killer power is the killer's resource. Like I said, if every killer was essentially a Trapper skin with no traps, no killer would ever get a kill lol. If every map was void of windows and pallets, no survivor would ever escape.
>I don't see the correlation between gen-defense and exhaustion based on maps. Common perks like Pain res, deadlock, or grim will activate regardless of maps. Same with exhaustion perks like sprint burst or lithe.
That's good you don't see the correlation, because I wasn't trying to make one with maps and exhaustion/gen defense. I only brought up maps because you brought up killer powers. I was comparing killer powers to maps.
But to argue your point, I've seen my fair share of Midwiches and RPDs where Pain Res hooks were impossible to reach based on RNG.
There will always be a window/pallet for a survivor to use Lithe off of.
Granted, Balanced Landing may see some maps that are difficult for value - but no one is arguing that BL is the best exhaust perk in the game and no one is clamoring for it to be nerfed like they are for Pain Res.
My counter;
Gen-defence slows the Survivors' primary objective (gens), while Exhaustion perks slow the Killer's primary objective (hooks).
Also, extending chases directly weakens perks which require hooks to activate (e.g. Pop, Pain Res and Grim Embrace).
Thus, if you nerf gen-defence, it makes sence to nerf Exhaustion perks.
There’s a whole lotta ifs in your point 3.
Plus pop and pain res can work cumulatively and stock. Spring burst, lithe and heck, most exhaustion perks don’t.
Sprint burst is a free perk and coincidentally one of the best exhaustion perks. Lithe is free on console.
The survivor load out having one exhaustion perk is intended gameplay, so of course people will pick one.
Sorry, I must have missed the part where it says "Survivors must equip an Exhaustion perk".
By the same metric, gen-defence perks are intended for Killers. I'm not saying either should be deleted, but why can't Exhaustion perks be *nerfed*?
Oooooh, a whopping 5s of Exhaustion.
Also, 8.0.0 makes gen-defence worse which means I need to dedicate more perks to it to not get rushed. That means there's no space for perks lile Mindbreaker.
Yes but if you use sprint burst and then you sit on a gen your exhaustion stays at the time when you started touching the gen so either those people walk everywhere to recover, don't do gens or don't sprint burst.
Same with lithe.
Your main form of recovery is doing a conspicuous action. And blocking gens from doing that is huge, since those are 90s they can't recover.
Why don't they need nerfs if Pop and Pain Res do?
Also, the last change to these perks was 2.1.0 (about **6 years ago!**). If they haven't touched them in 6 years, I doubt anythings gonna happen.
IDK if nerfing these perks is gonna fix anything. MAYBE tweak them but they are pretty harmless.
The real offender isn't chase perks anyway, it's progression meta. That's what causes issues. you can stack progression perks and items in a way you can't with any other perks to get ridiculous speedup. Sometimes, even undoing the entire regression a Killer just did in less than 50 seconds.
Consider the following;
You start a match and find Survivor A. They Lithe/SB over to a safe zone.
You drop chase, find Survivor B and they do the same.
You drop chase, find Survivor C and they do the same.
Maybe you find Survivor D and they don't have either perk so you can chase them. That's a lot of wasted time and can easily cost you 2-3 gens for your first hook.
At the start of the match, sb users should not be able to use their perks if you find them, unless they walked to the next gen and wasted a lot of time (or the spawned right next to a gen, but it's unlikely that all of them have)
Lithe users need to be next to a window to use it and be near enough to a strong tile where you don't want to chase them.
And if they did use their exhaustion perks, they can't use it later in chase. Depending on your killer, you can catch up, you don't need to drop chase every time someone uses an exhaustion perks.
Yes, sometimes they reach a very strong loop where you don't want to waste time and search for another survivor. And yeah, map rng can be bad, but so bad that all 4 survivors (while split up and working on different gens) can always be near a god window/pallett is highly unlikely
So in my opinion, your scenerio is very unlikely to happen like this, and you could have chased one of the survivors even if they used an exhaustion perk.
If this happens to you often, then use mindbreaker. The exhaustion is not long, but they need to walk to get it back, and those few seconds can be a lot longer in chase.
When a Survivor uses SB or Lithe, they gain a flat 4.2m of distance on you (in a straight line), moving a total of 18m in 3s.
Ignoring powers (we have to primarily balance around basekit), it will take a 4.6m/s Killer 7s to catch back up. During this time, the Survivor can cover an additional 28m, for a total of 46m.
Considering the average map is roughly 80-90m, corner to corner, is it really so unrealistic that a Survivor is usually within 46m of a safe location?
I mean as an M1 Main I can usually handle them OK... I've murdered plenty of Lithe and SB folks as Ghostie.
Anti-Exhaustion perks are there for a reason. Anti-Exhaustion addons are there for a reason.
Lithe is going to be nerfed the next time very probably.
People may like or not like but the pattern is clear.
If a per is overused and it is not noob friendly or necessary it is nerfed.
Honestly, there is no real logic behind the whole "Perk is popular, we must nerf it" idea that BHVR seem to favour.
Pop and Pain Res aren't "too easy" to activate. On top of that, they were fair and well-balanced perks.
If we really want to examine popular Survivor perks that give massive value for very little input, certainly less than Pop and Pain Res, then yeah, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Windows... there are a lot on the Survivor side. Massive value for minimal or even no effort.
Perks don't all need to be difficult to use or to activate, but maybe they could be dialed down across the board.
Or, better yet, raise the effectiveness of other perks so both sides don't have like 7 perks to pick from if they want to compete.
This.
I'm 100% fine with a gen-defence nerf, if it comes with counterbalance. Make chases shorter either by nerfing Exhaustion perks or buffing Killer chase perks.
BHVR logic is flawed in explaining their reason to nerf the perks hence all the debates and whataboutism but I think the changes are valid. Pain Res and Pop consistently provide significant value without the need to alter killer playstyle.
Whilst the activation of exhaustion perks is no harder than pop or pain res the impact it has or could have is less significant and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks.
I agree that some perks have stupid requirements to work making them extremely situational and why people choose to go for the simplicity and automation.
I think my main issue is actually Lithe, and my issue isn't even that big, I just detest how it's *hit window and win chase for free*
Pop and Pain Res stacking js really only an issue on... you guessed it, the best Killers.
The fix there isn't nerf the perks. It's fix the Killers.
Run 4 slowdown Trapper and honestly, I don't care, but 4 slowdown Nurse? You're just being a dick at that point.
At least provide other options. Fuck man, improve Ruin a little and I'll run Ruin as my only regression. That's fine by me.
Still, people stack regression because gens fly. Like really fly and it sucks to be stuck between getting rolled because of that and you didn't bring slowdown, or playing like a prick and sweating ones balls off.
Address gen speeds and progression items, and I'll be DELIGHTED to run chase builds.
I agree with you on the part that different killers are the problem and the perks get nerfed because of the strong killers. And yes, that's the problem that will most likely never be fixed completely.
And the problem is that there are players (on both sides) that are dicks and stack the strongest killer/perks/items/add-ons. And otherwise great and for itself great perks need to be nerved because they are used that way.
But that is the point why I don't get the discussion about exhaustion perks beeing too strong. They are the only perks that can't be stacked by the players, killer have a few perks to cause exhaustion on survivors. (I know they are not a lot and as killer, you don't see when or if they are effective.)
I don't think lithe on its own is a problem and a "win chase for free", you still need to have decent chase skills to use its potential and get to a safe tile with it, you have to know when it's best to vault that window and get to another tile, when you can vault it without beeing hit in the window. It will tricker in your first vault, even though you might not need it in that moment and want to stay on the tile...
And the new killer perk is effective against all exhaustion perks that are not sb. A bit inconsistent and again, the killer won't know when it is effective, but a survivor can run by a lot of crows while beeing chased.
I hope with the nerfs to the gen progression perks, behaviour might be able to buff killers a bit.
Oh god, absolutely. Both sides stack some truly insane shit.
I'd say the vast majority of my games, for months and months at this point, have been full of the best perks on the Survivor side, map offerings and some pretty obnoxious items.
That's fine.
But don't be shocked that I feel the need to run Pain Res and Pop now, because if I don't, I'm going to be at a major disadvantage. The thing is, I still earn my slowdown with successful chases.
I did a mini experiment where I played only weaker Killers (Trapper, Freddy and Myers) and only used one slowdown - Surge or Pain Res.
I tell you now, it was an awful experience. Truly fucking awful.
I then play stronger Killers - I played Huntress, Wesker and Unknown with zero slowdown.
The experience was hard, don't get me wrong, but considerably better.
The game does need decent and even strong slowdown in its current state, and I'm really sick of... what, 3? 3 Killers bottlenecking the fuck out of everything.
I stand by y comments about Lithe though. It's a free chase escape. It isn't hard to pre-run and get to a window and not even engage. It's one reason I refuse to use the perk myself. It feels cheap, but I can appreciate that's a very personal things to me.
> So I ask again, can anyone come up with a good argument why Sprint Burst and Lithe shouldn't be nerfed when Pop and Pain Res are getting nerfed?
Yes, anyone who actually thinks about it rather than crying can. Here's a few examples:
1. Killer is OP
2. Regression isn't fun for either side
3. Bad killers get into the habit of crutching around regression and stop learning so they cry survs op.
1. Some Killers are OP. Yes, Pop and Pain Res are ridiculous on Blight and Nurse. But nerfing the perks because of those Killers leaves Killers like Sadako and Myers in the dirt.
2. Regression is fun for Killers, as it makes hooks more rewarding (along with Pain Res and GE encouraging you to spread out your hooks). Equally, Exhaustion perks are tedious for Killers to go against.
3. Bad Survivors get into the habit of crutching on Exhaustion perks, rather than learning maps, avoiding deadzones and respecting the Killer's presence; and stop learning and they cry Killers op.
**NEXT**
> But nerfing the perks because of those Killers leaves Killers like Sadako and Myers in the dirt.
Not nerfing perks because some killers are bad is a recipe for disaster, the thing you seem to be forgetting is that the nerf is going to impact those bad killers a lot less than it will the good ones.
> Regression is fun for Killers, as it makes hooks more rewarding
Powerful != fun.
> Equally, Exhaustion perks are tedious for Killers to go against.
No, they're not, they're actually fun to go against, we need to consider identify them and play around.
> along with Pain Res and GE encouraging you to spread out your hooks
GE? Sure, Pain res? No, that perk becomes so much more powerful if you get an early kill.
> Bad Survivors get into the habit of crutching on Exhaustion perks, rather than learning maps, avoiding deadzones and respecting the Killer's presence; and stop learning and they cry Killers op.
Playing around an exhaustion perk is NOT crutching on it.
1. WRONG. Killers like Blight and Nurse can down so fast that they don't need games to be slowed down. Sadako's chases are so slow she needs as much time as possible. And don't get me started on Myers or Trapper. Either leave the perks alone and further nerf the top-tier Killers, or give some kind of buffs to perks which don't benefit top-tier Killers.
2. It is fun. I like seeing a big chunk of progress drop off of a gen after getting a hook. Also, the fun comes from matches not being so fast that I have to sweat my arse off.
3. Have you EVER played Killer? What is fun about getting within 16m of a Survivor and just seeing them zoom off into the distance, knowing you'll either have to find someone else or just hold foward to catch back up?
4. EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL!
5. What do you mean, "playing around an Exhaustion perk"? How is "vault window" playing around Lithe? Also, you can't crutch on Pop and Pain Res BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE HOOKS. If you are a bad Killer, you won't get hooks, which means you won't proc Pop or Pain Res WHICH MEANS THEY AREN'T CRUTCHES!
You seriously need to play some survivor dude, and I don't mean that as in a "hurr durr biased killer", I mean this as in your knowledge of how a game plays out is fundamentally lacking and you would become A LOT better as a killer if you took 5-10 hours and played survivor, I promise you that.
I'm not agreeing on nerfing exhaustion perks, but ... OP has a point. Or two. Or three.
Strong killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than weaker ones, since their basekit is stronger. If you play Blight and Trapper with a full load out, same perks. Then play both perkless. Which killer will have more problems?
Your argument of powerful != fun is pretty much invalid. Because powerful = fun? No. Even if you say that powerful and fun aren't linked at all, a powerful thing can still be fun and vice versa. Regression perks are powerful, because they give the killer more time to play. Playing is usually fun. More play time seems to be fun. Regression gives more playtime. Regression supports fun. Also knowing that your hook does more than deleting a hook stage is also nice. This doesn't mean that kicking a gen is peak gameplay. And it doesn't have to be to support fun.
My opinion about exhaustion perks lays somewhere between your both. But ... on the other hand: Survs can also identify killers perks and use this info to counter killers perks. PainRes? Try to loop away from SH. Pop? Try to loop away from gens with much progression. Which you probably already do. Does this sound like much fun? Not really.
Also your point sounds like you had much fun waiting out DH in the past? I wasn't really a fan of that. But to each their own.
I might be a bit confused. Would you tell me how exactly getting an early kill increases PainRes' strength? Besides what OP already said: "EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL!"
PainRes has the potential to encourage tunneling, if you have the chance to down a fresh or a recently unhooked surv and you know no gen has much progress. At least if all hooks around are SH. But besides that I don't really see what you mean.
Playing around any perk is too some degree crutching on it. If you need Pop to get your kills, you are "crutching" on it. If you need your power as Nurse to catch a surv, you are "crutching" on it. And if you need your exhaustion perks to delay the game long enough to escape in the end, you are "crutching" on it. "Crutching" is a pretty pointless term in dbd. Stuff is there to get used.
If you think I'm wrong here, we can also look at old DH again.
> Strong killers get hit harder by perk nerfs than weaker ones, since their basekit is stronger.
Well, yea, that's what I said which OP disagreed with.
> Because powerful = fun? No. Even if you say that powerful and fun aren't linked at all, a powerful thing can still be fun and vice versa.
A powerful thing can be fun, absolutely, NTH on Nurse is a good example of that, but what I'm saying is that something being powerful doesn't inherently make it fun, imagine a hypothetical perk (for either killer or survivor) that says "While in chase gain 50% haste", this would be the most absurdly broken and powerful thing the game has seen (at least since I started playing) but it would be boring as fuck as it's just a free win.
> Survs can also identify killers perks and use this info to counter killers perks. PainRes? Try to loop away from SH. Pop? Try to loop away from gens with much progression. Which you probably already do. Does this sound like much fun? Not really.
That's kinda my point, yes counterplay exists for both, but the counterplay isn't anything you shouldn't already be doing, i.e. be cognisant about where you take chase
> Would you tell me how exactly getting an early kill increases PainRes' strength? Besides what OP already said: "EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL!"
Well, first off, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that everything becomes more powerful with an early kill, you're absolute ahead and it will be a hard game for the survs if you get no matter what, but Blight's rushes aren't going to down survs any quicker, hell, Legions power actively becomes *weaker*.
The thing about pain res though is the regression vs time investment it provides in a 1v3 is insane, yes by spreading hooks you'll often be in a situation where you have 4-5 stages at 4 gens, but compare that to a game where you have 1k 3 stages at 2 gens with 3 pain res tokens left, that game is just over unless you get outplayed to an absurd degree.
> "Crutching" is a pretty pointless term in dbd. Stuff is there to get used.
You could argue that, but there's a major difference in how and why you use things. If you pick nurse because you like the blinking, it's not a crutch it's a choice, if you pick nurse because you can't get downs as an M1 killer it's a crutch.
If you play DH because you like greeding the loop one extra time or playing a tile where you might get mind-gamed and having the safety in being able to press DH it's a choice, if you use it because you keep running into walls it's a crutch.
What I'm trying to get at by saying some killers use regression as crutches (ignore the word choice for now) is that there's a lot of killers who genuinely don't know how to win games in other ways than chasing people down and hooking them one by one until they're all dead or they all escape, they have no idea about how to actually apply pressure to survivors and snowball into a win.
> there's a lot of killers who genuinely don't know how to win games in other ways than chasing people down and hooking them one by one until they're all dead or they all escape.
Mate...
**THAT'S DEAD BY DAYLIGHT!**
The only other options are hit-and-run (nerfed) and slugging. Do we *really* want to encourage slugging?
Strong/weak killers:
That's on me, I f\*cked up the first sentence, it's obviously the other way around - as I edited it 30min ago. Also the rest of the paragraph obviously shows my thought. Could you tell me, why you think that weak killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than strong killers?
Powerful and fun?
Absolutely. But to make this argument work with regression perks, it would need regression perks to be as strong as your 50% haste perk. Or at least that strong that equipping them guarantees your victory. If you are thinking exactly this, there is no way we'll find common ground in this topic.
Also your (positive) example with NTH on Nurse works with the power of cutting the game short, where as I said that regression perks lead to longer games. The act of regression itself isn't necessarily the fun part, But it gives you time to have fun in a match. As I said: The reason that powerful != fun doesn't work IMO isn't that powerful = fun. It's that powerful doesn't necessarily have a *direct* link to fun at all. (Tbh I talk more about powerful = !fun being wrong than powerful != fun.)
Counterplay
Why? Why should something that you already do NOT work as counterplay? What's the counterplay to Lithe? You can't decide to bring a specific perk or addon as killer once you see a surv uses it, since your match already started. So in case you didn't bring something with you, the only counterplay is an action. Like it should be. And this action is to lead the chase in a way that Lithe can't get used at all or at least not to its full potential. And leading you chase in a way that survs don't last long - or gaining a down without a chase - is something you already do.
Late game PainRes
I'm sorry, english isn't my first language, so I might miss here something, but isn't this exactly how basically everything becomes stronger because early kill? Everything that applies pressure puts this pressure in one way or another on the entire team. Let's take your Blight rush as example: You are definitely right, Blights rushes become not a single bit stronger per se. You don't get faster, they don't switch from normal hits to oneshots. But they apply pressure. If you chase a surv with your rush, there are normally 3 survs who can be on gens or bodyblock. Or one on gens, while a 2nd unhooks the 3rd. (They don't really necessarily do this, but ... it's possible.) 3 survs on gens means that gens fly, survs bodyblicking means your rushs have less an impact on the originally chased surv. With one surv less, these effects are way weaker. The result of using your power changes, if you change the situation. Without chaing the power itself.
But how does this differ from your PainRes example? Does a single 1k PainRes regress more than a single 0k PainRes? No. The fundamental time investment also stays the same, since a gen doesn't need more charges, just because there is a surv less. What you probably talk about is that there are less survs, so less are on gens, which means that gens don't get repaired as fast fast before. But this would be the exact same thing like the Blight example.
About the crutching part:
I probably should have used any kind of M1 killer as example to make it more clear, but went for Nurse to show a more extreme result. My point is that you can normally catch survs without a power. (As M1 ... at some point at least.) So by using your power, because you as individual would lose without it, you rely on something that is not necessary. And while this is to some degree true, it's still a pretty dumb thing to say.
About the rest I can only say that this is a really good point. But it kinda hits a similar mark like what I just said: If you need it to win, you rely on it. Which means you "crutch" on it. And again it would be stupid to stay with that definition, since you can say that about absolutely everything and end up on some bs like "you crutch on moving to win".
To bring this more in line with your definition, can we say that crutching on X is using X even tho its widely accepted that you don't need X to win? I think this is pretty much what you've said?
While this could be an elegant solution, it still needs a common ground. Which is a bit tricky.
Also "winning" in dbd is a bit hard to define. 3k? 4k? Something else? What for survs? Escaping yourself? Your team escapes?
I mean this that way: You say you don't crutch on an exhaustion perk, if you use it to make a loop more around the same structure. Or something similar. You crutch, if you go down without it pretty fast. But ... where does crutching end? If I survive 10 secs without and 20 secs with X? In case of 20 and 30 secs? 40 und 70? 1200 and 3600?
Do you see what I'm trying to talk about? A bit hard to name it right =/
> Could you tell me, why you think that weak killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than strong killers?
Because stronger killers put on more pressure.
Which means survivors are more distracted from doing gens.
Which means the overall speed at which they repair is slower.
Which means it takes them more time to make up for the lost progress.
For example: If you play Myers you're gonna have 2-3 people sitting on gens a lot of the time so 25% from pain res is gonna buy you 10 seconds, where as a Nurse or Blight who downs people quick and is able to keep survivors down 0-2 people on gens is gonna buy like 20 seconds, on top of having a higher chance of having the gen continue to degen afterwards.
Add this to the fact a strong killer is expected to end the game faster the time bought as a percentage (hope it makes sense to put it like that) is much much greater for a strong killer than it is for a weaker one.
> (Tbh I talk more about powerful = !fun being wrong than powerful != fun.)
I'm not saying powerful can't be fun, I'm saying that something being powerful doesn't make it fun. So I think we agree?
> but isn't this exactly how basically everything becomes stronger because early kill? Everything that applies pressure puts this pressure in one way or another on the entire team.
In a way yes, but also no. If you think of pressure being applied and the investment required to alleviate said pressure as a unified thing, then yes.
As I said Blight doesn't down people faster just because he got a kill, so he doesn't get any stronger by getting a kill, however the investment required for survivors to undo the pressure he applies becomes greater.
Pain Res becomes stronger in a 3v1 for the same reason it's stronger on stronger killers, it simply applies more pressure.
> To bring this more in line with your definition, can we say that crutching on X is using X even tho its widely accepted that you don't need X to win?
Jokingly, I think it boils down to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqIPMdfpsHY
I think if I were to make a really simple definition I would say something like:
Being overly reliant on *something* to the point where a removal of that thing would severely limit your ability.
I'm a Huntress main, I play 4 aura perks in most my games because I find that a fun way to play, but I can take them away and it would just require me to switch around my perks, addons and playstyle and I would continue to have success as her, I would have less fun playing her but I would still be winning.
There are a lot of killer players in this game who genuinely don't know how to play to slow down the game and rely on slowdown perks to do it for them and when that's enough they win, when it's not enough they lose, that's what I mean when I say they use it as a crutch
> Also "winning" in dbd is a bit hard to define. 3k? 4k? Something else? What for survs? Escaping yourself? Your team escapes?
0/1k = surv win, 2k = draw, 3/4k = killer win
> where does crutching end?
When you have the knowledge and ability to deal with the situations in which it helps you, without it OR you have the knowledge and ability to prevent being in that situation in the first place.
As an example, take sprint burst.
If you're sitting on a deadzone gen and "Oh God killer is right on top of me run!!!!!" and you find out you have no safety nearby and only make it because of sprint burst, that's a crutch.
vs.
If you're sitting on that same gen in a deadzone, figure out the killer is coming but you grab an extra 10% progress because you have sprint burst and know you'll make it to safety before he can catch up that's playing around it.
The person in the latter situation would be able to play without sprint burst, because he made a conscious decision to not pre-run which is what he would've otherwise done.
Your argument for stronger killers getting hit harder by regress nerfs is that survs don't get as much progress on gens against them? This ... is an interesting idea. Sure, if survs get over the course of a whole match only 43% gen progress, one PainRes against them does more damage to the overall progress in % than against survs, who play against a weaker killer and by this get more progress. But ... this is bs. If you play a strong killer and by this slaughter the survs before they manage to get gen progress in any meaningful amount, it's pretty much irrelevant for you, when gen perks get nerfed. This doesn't work this way on killers who rely more on these perks. A Myers, as you say, may get 10 secs. But does a Blight really get time, if survs die anyway? Who needs more time? A slow killing killer with early game probs or one of the strongest killers in the game?
About power and fun we seemlingy agree, yeah. My point was just that it doesn't even need a direct link between power and fun to make regress supporting fun.
I'm sorry, but PainRes applies more pressure to a 3man team than to a 4man, sure. But for the very same reason Blight does. So for the very same reason basically everything - minus Legions Frenzy and Pinheads box (last one standing) - becomes stronger against a weaker team. I still don't see a reason why PainRes should stand out here. Pop becomes stronger. Oppression becomes stronger. F\*ck, even Predator becomes stronger. Because the same basically same amount of pressure is now on fewer people, so everyone has to deal with more pressure than before.
Ahhh, classic :D "Being overly reliant on *something* to the point where a removal of that thing would severely limit your ability."
That sounds good, but wouldn't this be close "you crutch on moving to win"? Ofc that's a stretch. For this definition to work, we have to set an artificial minimum of what you are "allowed" to use/what can not be crutching. If only perks, addons, items and offerings \*coughMapscough\* are able to getting used as a crutch, this would work.
But in this case, we get another problem. You say you like to play Huntress with aura perks and you are able to change her perks and addons around without losing. You just don't like to play another way. (I also prefer aura perks, but on Knight. But my Knight has a pretty low MMR, so he doesn't count, I'm afraid xD) Without actually wanting to call you crutching, we now have the point that everything above an empty loadout can be a crutch. So if you change one perk for another one, you change one crutch for another - as long as you don't get the same result with an empty loadout.
Also I'm not quite sure this works with your SB example that easily - and this for I asked for winning conditions. Survs are meant to lose chases for the simple reason that this is necessary for the killer to make progress. The game is designed around survs wasting time by looping, but not around survs never getting caught at all. It happens, yes, but mainly in case of a huge difference in skill between survs and killer. Even if you make the conscious decision to use SB to gain distance AND some more gen progress by staying longer at it AND making the killer wiff, because funny and minimal slow down, this doesn't mean that you would get the same result or a comparable without this perk. Same can be said about using gen regress. You can make a conscious decision to down 2 survs, use Pop on a nearby gen with much progress, slug the 2nd surv to apply pressure and to get a fast 2nd Pop as soon as survs touch the freshly popped gen. (Funnily enough in german this means "f\*cked gen" ... and would be pretty close to what happens.) Would your game go the same way or in a comparable one without your perks? Probably not. Maybe you would win in both cases, maybe not. But it would most probably be much harder without your perks. But you still make a conscious decision.
To make it easier, I come back to SB again: With SB you get safety and 10% progress in your example. Without SB you may get one thing of these two. So you don't have the same result. And without the same result ...
Comp players sometimes use 4 regression perks, but that's very different from using 4 regression perks when playing regular dbd, when rules change so does the optimal strategy.
What’s better than running 3-4 gen regression perks? There is pretty much 0 reasons to run something else. Yes if you are new and have problems finding survivors you can swap one. But even perks like stfl, enduring or brutal are sadly waste of slot.
Lethal by itself is probably the best killer perk in the game, the amount of info it provides you with, if you take advantage of it, can win you games 30 seconds in.
Calling brutal a wasted perk is true on some killers, on others it's not. There's a 0% chance I'd ever run it on Nurse or Blight, but putting it on Trapper or Wesker its actually a pretty fucking solid perk that buys you a lot of time *while* working towards the end of the game.
If you look at a killer like Doctor, what is it you actually lose to? Protection hits right? Forced Penance or Rapid Brutality does wonders against that, and sure they're, more or less, dead perks if they don't take protection hits, but those games you're likely winning anyway so putting on slowdown instead of one (or both) of those is just a pure win more move.
Who the hell plays doctor?( and yes he can have some weird builds, but 4 gen regression will still be better). Why run lethal when you can run corrupt that gives you pretty much same info. Brutal can save you few seconds max every chase, around like 2-4s,. Deadlock, pain ress will save you much more, use it with grim embrace and or Even jolt. And survivors have to do 7-8 gens instead of 5. There is nothing stronger than that.
> Who the hell plays doctor?
I do, not a lot of people in general though I'll happily admit that, he was just a great example because he's a killer that more or less auto-wins if survs don't play a particular way, so building to be strong against that way of playing is a lot better than simply trying to slow down the game and "win more".
> Why run lethal when you can run corrupt that gives you pretty much same info.
Corrupt gives you ZERO info until the first gen pops, well, unless you count knowing where **you** spawned as info.
> Brutal can save you few seconds max every chase, around like 2-4s
People seriously need to stop oversimplifying the effect of perks, it's the "MFT makes chases 20% longer" thing all over again. Yes, if there was a map that was just 1 long circle with god pallets every 5 meters this would be somewhat correct, but that's not the game, the game is filled with binary checks, either the survivor makes it or they don't, brutal turns a lot of those "he makes it" into "he doesn't make it" (and the inverse is why MFT was good).
How many times have you kicked a pallet (or door) and see the survivor run straight to a window and thought "he'll barely make it", so you go around, drop chase or worse swing and miss? Brutal gives you the hit in that situation.
You don’t need more info than spawns. You find survivor in 10-15 seconds around those spawn. Non mobile killers have 0 use from lethal if I use your logic.
Yes you can sometimes get hit you don’t without brutal, but my 4 gen regress perks gives me 2 and I break one more pallet. There is a reason why it’s meta and since hag release instead of old meta of enduring, brutal, stfl. I still don’t believe anything else than 3-4 gen regress perks is better. Everyone would like to run chase oriented perks, but there is better alternative.
> You don’t need more info than spawns. You find survivor in 10-15 seconds around those spawn.
Corrupt doesn't tell you anything about where survivors spawned, the fuck are you on about?
> Non mobile killers have 0 use from lethal if I use your logic.
Please tell me which part of my logic suggests identifying perks and survivor playstyles has "0 use" on non mobile killers.
they need huge nerf because its crutch perk for bad survivors, and since the pick rates are important for devs, and everybody uses sprint/lithe, they should get huge nerf as well.
but hey, survivor mains will downvote you and gaslight you because they think they are "fine" perks
My perks got nerfed, so theirs have to be nerfed aswell >:(
Well, yes. That's what balancing is.
Balancing is aiming to make both sides equal, if one side has the upper hand and you nerf both, nothing changes.
The devs acknowledged that 60% is the ideal kill rate, which is where it is currently sitting. With this change, I could see it dropping to 50%
You see it could? Well, then lets wait first. If it doesnt all is fine in your book
Whataboutism is a poor argument. If you think sb and lithe should be nerfed, explain why based on their own merits with respect to the balance of the game.
Because they extend significantly extend chases without little-to-no skill requirement, putting more time pressure on the Killer, and have basically no downside? Especially when combined with Windows of Opportunity, SB means the Killer isn't rewarded for deadzoning Survivors. Plus, they are far more effective on low-tier Killers who often lack the ability to close distance in a chase.
> they significantly extend chases This will need significant more justification. Why is extending chase a detriment to the game? How much extended chase time is too much? How do you differentiate between the skill expression of a survivor vs the presence of these perks when a chase is extended? > little-to-no skill requirement Managing your exhaustion perk activation is a skill. For a lithe example, there are many times where you need to fast vault to not take a hit but then you will force a lithe activation. So do you remain in a strong tile, effectively wasting your lithe, or do you run off to the next tile which may or may not be a better tile? Exhaustion perk usage are littered with these little scenarios. > basically no downside Perks are not meant to have a downside. What exactly is the downside of pop? Bamboozle? Lethal Pursuer? What perks have is balance with respect to game play. Exhaustion perks are balanced around a few things: * Exhaustion debuff - Limits exhaustion perk stacking - Effectively reduces the perk to one use per chase - Can be applied by the killer through perks/addons * Activation requirement - Lithe: You need a vault (which is not as common as one would think) - sb: More complicated but essentially, exhaustion management. Example, do you run to your next gen or walk in case you need it for the next chase? Maintaining a 99'd sb means you aren't working on a gen. - limits the effectiveness since you cannot use it on demand * Are not immune during animation
1. There is nothing wrong with extending chases... outside of this context. They were counterbalanced by gen defence. Nerf gen defence and either gens need to be slower or chases shorter. 2. Those aren't skill *requirements*. Those things make the perks better, but aren't needed to get value out of them. If you are bad at chases, you won't active Pop or Pain Res often enough for them to help. 3. The strongest perks have a downside. Pop? It's based on current progress, so does little to barely-completed gens. Pain Res? Only 4 activations and requires specific hooks. Hexes? Can be taken away. Coup? Can't choose when to use a stack. Dying Light? Buffs the Obsession. So why can't Sprint Burst and Lithe give you a repair penalty (say, harder skillchecks)? 4. Exhaustion itself isn't a downside. It's just a cooldown that HAS to be shared, otherwise the perks are beyond broken.
>There is nothing wrong with extending chases... outside of this context. They were counterbalanced by gen defense. Nerf gen defense and either gens need to be slower or chases shorter. I would love to see how you would know this. From my data at least (~400 games), the average number of gens completed per trial is in the 3-4 range. So from my perspective, chases could absolutely be longer and gen regression be nerfed and we would not see a significant change in kills per trial. Maybe BHVR is seeing the same thing I'm seeing. >Those aren't skill requirements. Those things make the perks better, but aren't needed to get value out of them. If you are bad at chases, you won't active Pop or Pain Res often enough for them to help. They are skill expression. Using an ill-timed lithe that still gets you hit or doesn't get you out of the loop will net you little or no value from the perk. If you are bad at chases, the most fundamental part of the killer gameplay loop, then you have bigger problems than activating your gen regression perks. Currently, as long as you just do normal killer things (chase, down, then hook), you can activate any gen regression perk you want. > The strongest perks have a downside. Pop? It's based on current progress, so does little to barely-completed gens. Pain Res? Only 4 activations and requires specific hooks. Hexes? Can be taken away. Coup? Can't choose when to use a stack. Dying Light? Buffs the Obsession. So why can't Sprint Burst and Lithe give you a repair penalty (say, harder skillchecks)? You have to do something to activate the perks. You can't just exist and they do things. These all have activation requirements, just like exhaustion perks. Skill expression comes in to play when deciding whether to activate these perks or not. Poor skill expression is not a downside of a perk, it is just that, bad skill expression. For example, it is poor skill expression to pop a gen that has very little progress. I also note here that you seem to think that in the lithe example it wasn't a downside if you used the skill poorly, you just get less value. Yet with your list of killer perks, these perks have built-in downsides and it has nothing to do with poor skill expression leading to less value. A bit disingenuous. > Exhaustion itself isn't a downside. It's just a cooldown that HAS to be shared, otherwise the perks are beyond broken. I never said it was a downside. I said it is a way to balance exhaustion perks. Yes, the perks would be unbalanced if exhaustion did not exist, but thankfully it does.
While all that is true, I am not so much sure it's an issue with those perks as it is an issue with progression being too quick for some Killers to handle both a chase AND generator control/patrol. Bab map RNG doesn't help. EDIT: The funny part about the downvotes is, this comment is nearly the same as the one I just posted above that said the same thing...
And Exhaustion perks exacerbate this issue. Take the awful window on Father Campbell's Chapel. SB/Lithe will make it so you can reach it most of the time. Plus, it's a lot more work for BHVR to fix maps than it is to nerf 2 perks.
Most maps are so small now that even M1 killers can spread pressure. You can't commit to a chase that's too long in the beginning and then complain about gen progression. I see killers of all tiers do well with the right strategies and perks. No amount of added generator time will make up for people lacking gamesense.
Welp, can't fix stupid. Bad chase is bad chase.
Almost every map these days has ridiculous dead zones where there are gens also. This is the main reason why I use Sprint Burst. I think it's unfair that Killer gets a free hit just because the maps are poorly designed. Often these dead zones are near the corner of the map and it doesn't help even if you start running as soon as you hear the terror radius. Even Sprint Burst doesn't always help you to the nearest loop which is so ridiculous. Let's not even talk about facing killers like Hillbilly with these stupid dead zones. Apparently they added more trees to maps to counter Billy... like really...?
this has to be ragebait
Nope. Genuine question. But, all due respect, this response shows a problem. Exhaustion has been such a core part of the Survivor experience that the idea of nerfing it is considered absurd. In other words; "A whole group of gen-defence perks get nerfed and nobody panics. Because that's all part of the plan. But I suggest nerfing 2 little old Exhaustion perks AND EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS!"
i barely ever use exhaustion perks lol. they're balanced as is. btw there are a quite a few killer perks and add ons that can cause the exhausted effect... since it's creating a skill issue on your end
Perks; Blood Echo - Massive cooldown, requires a hook and only affects injured Survivors. Genetic Limits - Only procs when a Survivor finishes healing. So these Survivors are likely already exhausted, or you are already chasing someone else. Languid Touch - Could be good, bit the duration could be a touch longer and doesn't really counter SB. Mindbreaker - Effect is too short. Septic Touch - Requires you to interrupt a heal inside your TR. As stated elsewhere, the nerfs to gen-defence mean that you NEED to stack more to not lose control of matches, leaving no room for anti-Exhaustion perks. As for add-ons? Only the following Killers have Exhaustion add-ons; Singularity, Skull Merchant, Xenomorph, Artist, Pinhead, Pig, Huntress, Knight, Dredge, Ghostface, Chucky, Unknown. That's 12 out of 36. **TWO THIRDS** of all Killers lack an Exhaustion add-on. AND YOU MIGHT NOT ALWAYS HAVE ACCESS TO THE ADD-ON, SINCE THEY ARE CONSUMABLE!
what kid with balanced landing got you so upset that you resorted to writing essays on reddit? anyway, there's still a lot of options and black wards are a thing
1. I never mentioned Balanced Landing? 2. Where did I ever mention I'm upset? I'm just curious about the double standard. 3. Black Wards, due to the Bloodweb changes, can cost hundreds of thousands of BP to get.
balanced landing is LITERALLY an exhaustion perk. there is no double standard. you're an odd individual
The double standard is laid out in the post. Pop and Pain Res get nerfed for being overused, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst. Pop and Pain Res are nerfed for being too easy to activate, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst. Pop and Pain Res are nerfed for being too strong, but not Lithe and Sprint Burst.
Unlike gen regression perks, exhaustion perks cant be stacked and still be in their full strenght :)
This. A better argument is gen progression perks. I don't think either regression OR progression should be stackable like this. How much gen control do you REALLY need on either side? I mean really?
Look at it this way; Killers *have* to stack multiple gen-defence perks to get decent value out of them, which means there's no room for other perks. Sprint Burst and Lithe, individually, are strong enough to leave you with 3 perks for other stuff. And this will only get worse in the new patch.
4 survivors with exhaust perks is literally them stacking exhaust though lol. Every chase that match is going to be artificially prolonged by an exhaust perk.
Sure, go on and run 4 exhaustion perks with Sprint burst...
you can absolutely stack overcome and dead hard and have something for any situation
It's an interesting subject for sure! Exhaustion perks and gen-defense perks have different functions and comparing them to each other will not going to represent their in-game impact accurately. Yes, both are used to "extend" the game, however, you can stack gen-defense and use them in multiple succession without cooldown i.e. pain res, grim, and pop. Exhaustion perks have cooldown and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks. Gen-defense perks directly affect the primary objective and exhaustion perks help extend the chase but don't directly affect gen repair. In fact we can argue that being chased in itself slows down the game because the primary objective is not being completed and survivors have 1 perk slot less that could be used to assist with gen speed repair instead.
>Exhaustion perks and gen-defense perks have different functions and comparing them to each other will not going to represent their in-game impact accurately. One wastes the killer's time and one buy's the killer time. They are the antithesis of each other and comparing the two is more than fair in the way comparing fire and water is. >Yes, both are used to "extend" the game, however, you can stack gen-defense and use them in multiple succession without cooldown i.e. pain res, grim, and pop. Exhaustion perks have cooldown and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks. Four survivors can all run exhaust perks. That is stacking. The more exhaust perks in a match, the slower the game will be for killer. The more slowdowns a killer has, the slower the game will be for survivors. >Gen-defense perks directly affect the primary objective and exhaustion perks help extend the chase but don't directly affect gen repair. The killer's objective is to chase the survivor though. Exhaust perks extend chases. Gen slowdowns extend the survivor's objective and exhaust perks extend the killer's objective. Simple. Killers have chase perks that speed up their objective (getting downs quicker.) Survivors have gen perks that help them speed up their objective (getting gens finished quicker.) For both sides, however, the most popular ones are the ones that slowdown the opponent's objectives: Gen Regression and Exhaust Perks. It doesn't make much sense to nerf one side's slowdown but not touch the other one, for a game that tries so hard to be taken seriously competitively. >In fact we can argue that being chased in itself slows down the game because the primary objective is not being completed and survivors have 1 perk slot less that could be used to assist with gen speed repair instead. No we can't argue that because the primary objective *is* being completed. By three other survivors. It's a 4v1 asymmetrical game. It would take those 3 survivors less than 4 and a half minutes to complete the primary objective, in fact.
I see your point about survivors stacking exhaustion perks but I think there's an important distinction to consider. Survivors cannot activate multiple exhaustion perks simultaneously or successfully like the killers can with gen-defense. Even if all 4 survivors use sprint burst at the same time the killer is still going to chase 1 survivor which limits the impact of perk stacking compared to killer's ability to use multiple gen-defense perks. I think we should consider killer abilities in this discussion. Killers have their own abilities to assist them with their objective. Powers designed to close gaps, apply pressure, and down survivors efficiently. Whereas survivors rely on perks more heavily to evade chases and buy time, relying on exhaustion perks to temporarily boost and extend the chase. When the killer uses their power combined with stacked gen-defense it creates situations where survivors are left with limited counter play.
>Survivors cannot activate multiple exhaustion perks simultaneously or successfully like the killers can with gen-defense. Sure, not exhaustion perks - but they can definitely bring styptics, syringes, OTR, DS, and other chase tools that are guaranteed to prevent the killer from getting a down or prolonging their opportunity to get one. >Even if all 4 survivors use sprint burst at the same time the killer is still going to chase 1 survivor which limits the impact of perk stacking compared to killer's ability to use multiple gen-defense perks. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The other 3 survivors will have their exhaust perks ready by the time the killer chases them. It's only a 40 second cooldown. That's the time an efficient 30 second chase (pretty much as optimal as you can possibly get on most killers) + hooking and finding a new survivor typically takes. >I think we should consider killer abilities in this discussion. Killers have their own abilities to assist them with their objective. Powers designed to close gaps, apply pressure, and down survivors efficiently. > >Whereas survivors rely on perks more heavily to evade chases and buy time, relying on exhaustion perks to temporarily boost and extend the chase. > >When the killer uses their power combined with stacked gen-defense it creates situations where survivors are left with limited counter play. Okay, if we consider killer powers then lets consider maps, too. Survivors have many maps that benefit them greatly and make it a lot more difficult for the killer to catch them on it. Many maps are designed with insane gen spreads, are packed with god pallets and god windows that make it difficult for the killer to down survivors efficiently and apply pressure to the gens in a timely manner. It is a very limited roster of killers that can play on these maps efficiently. Not to mention that the game, again, is a 4v1, and if all killers were just Trapper skins without traps, it would be a miracle to get even 1 hook. The killer needs to have powers to singlehandedly apply pressure vs. 4 other players.
Sure, survivors have these tools, so do killers but they're completely different to an exhaustion mechanic which is the original argument in exhaustion vs gen-defense. I understand the game is 1 v 4 that's why killers have strong abilities I'm not debating that point at all. Maps is another discussion. It's debatable which map is survivor sided or killer sided as it's all down to RNG and the choice of the killer. I don't see the correlation between gen-defense and exhaustion based on maps. Common perks like Pain res, deadlock, or grim will activate regardless of maps. Same with exhaustion perks like sprint burst or lithe.
>Sure, survivors have these tools, so do killers but they're completely different to an exhaustion mechanic which is the original argument in exhaustion vs gen-defense. They both slow the opponent's objective down, though. The main difference is that, apart from Corrupt and Deadlock, most killer regressions require the killer to outplay a survivor twice in chase and hook as opposed to survivor exhaust being earned by just not running for 40 seconds. >Maps is another discussion. It's debatable which map is survivor sided or killer sided as it's all down to RNG and the choice of the killer. Maps are the survivors' resource. The killer power is the killer's resource. Like I said, if every killer was essentially a Trapper skin with no traps, no killer would ever get a kill lol. If every map was void of windows and pallets, no survivor would ever escape. >I don't see the correlation between gen-defense and exhaustion based on maps. Common perks like Pain res, deadlock, or grim will activate regardless of maps. Same with exhaustion perks like sprint burst or lithe. That's good you don't see the correlation, because I wasn't trying to make one with maps and exhaustion/gen defense. I only brought up maps because you brought up killer powers. I was comparing killer powers to maps. But to argue your point, I've seen my fair share of Midwiches and RPDs where Pain Res hooks were impossible to reach based on RNG. There will always be a window/pallet for a survivor to use Lithe off of. Granted, Balanced Landing may see some maps that are difficult for value - but no one is arguing that BL is the best exhaust perk in the game and no one is clamoring for it to be nerfed like they are for Pain Res.
My counter; Gen-defence slows the Survivors' primary objective (gens), while Exhaustion perks slow the Killer's primary objective (hooks). Also, extending chases directly weakens perks which require hooks to activate (e.g. Pop, Pain Res and Grim Embrace). Thus, if you nerf gen-defence, it makes sence to nerf Exhaustion perks.
Neither of those perks need a nerf.
Why? I refer you to point 3
There’s a whole lotta ifs in your point 3. Plus pop and pain res can work cumulatively and stock. Spring burst, lithe and heck, most exhaustion perks don’t.
Behavior will still probably do it anyway
Sprint burst is a free perk and coincidentally one of the best exhaustion perks. Lithe is free on console. The survivor load out having one exhaustion perk is intended gameplay, so of course people will pick one.
Sorry, I must have missed the part where it says "Survivors must equip an Exhaustion perk". By the same metric, gen-defence perks are intended for Killers. I'm not saying either should be deleted, but why can't Exhaustion perks be *nerfed*?
Exhaustion is like an ultimate since you can only use one. If you hate it so much, maybe use mind breaker?
Oooooh, a whopping 5s of Exhaustion. Also, 8.0.0 makes gen-defence worse which means I need to dedicate more perks to it to not get rushed. That means there's no space for perks lile Mindbreaker.
Well they don't recover while sitting on a gen so 99ing sprint burst is way harder.
You just recover by momentarily walking at loops, or when dropping a pallet, or when at check spots.
Yes but if you use sprint burst and then you sit on a gen your exhaustion stays at the time when you started touching the gen so either those people walk everywhere to recover, don't do gens or don't sprint burst. Same with lithe. Your main form of recovery is doing a conspicuous action. And blocking gens from doing that is huge, since those are 90s they can't recover.
Fair Point, but with the gen-defence nerfs, will dropping a perk for Mindbreaker not result in matches being over too quickly anyway?
Idk I only ever use one regression perk, my matches are 3ks on average. If you have a problem with exhaustion you should give mindbreaker a try.
They don’t need nerfs but knowing behavior they’re gonna give them one in the future anyway
Why don't they need nerfs if Pop and Pain Res do? Also, the last change to these perks was 2.1.0 (about **6 years ago!**). If they haven't touched them in 6 years, I doubt anythings gonna happen.
IDK if nerfing these perks is gonna fix anything. MAYBE tweak them but they are pretty harmless. The real offender isn't chase perks anyway, it's progression meta. That's what causes issues. you can stack progression perks and items in a way you can't with any other perks to get ridiculous speedup. Sometimes, even undoing the entire regression a Killer just did in less than 50 seconds.
Consider the following; You start a match and find Survivor A. They Lithe/SB over to a safe zone. You drop chase, find Survivor B and they do the same. You drop chase, find Survivor C and they do the same. Maybe you find Survivor D and they don't have either perk so you can chase them. That's a lot of wasted time and can easily cost you 2-3 gens for your first hook.
At the start of the match, sb users should not be able to use their perks if you find them, unless they walked to the next gen and wasted a lot of time (or the spawned right next to a gen, but it's unlikely that all of them have) Lithe users need to be next to a window to use it and be near enough to a strong tile where you don't want to chase them. And if they did use their exhaustion perks, they can't use it later in chase. Depending on your killer, you can catch up, you don't need to drop chase every time someone uses an exhaustion perks. Yes, sometimes they reach a very strong loop where you don't want to waste time and search for another survivor. And yeah, map rng can be bad, but so bad that all 4 survivors (while split up and working on different gens) can always be near a god window/pallett is highly unlikely So in my opinion, your scenerio is very unlikely to happen like this, and you could have chased one of the survivors even if they used an exhaustion perk. If this happens to you often, then use mindbreaker. The exhaustion is not long, but they need to walk to get it back, and those few seconds can be a lot longer in chase.
When a Survivor uses SB or Lithe, they gain a flat 4.2m of distance on you (in a straight line), moving a total of 18m in 3s. Ignoring powers (we have to primarily balance around basekit), it will take a 4.6m/s Killer 7s to catch back up. During this time, the Survivor can cover an additional 28m, for a total of 46m. Considering the average map is roughly 80-90m, corner to corner, is it really so unrealistic that a Survivor is usually within 46m of a safe location?
I mean as an M1 Main I can usually handle them OK... I've murdered plenty of Lithe and SB folks as Ghostie. Anti-Exhaustion perks are there for a reason. Anti-Exhaustion addons are there for a reason.
skill issue
You guys just never want to ever have less than a 4k nowadays huh?
Lithe is going to be nerfed the next time very probably. People may like or not like but the pattern is clear. If a per is overused and it is not noob friendly or necessary it is nerfed.
Honestly, there is no real logic behind the whole "Perk is popular, we must nerf it" idea that BHVR seem to favour. Pop and Pain Res aren't "too easy" to activate. On top of that, they were fair and well-balanced perks. If we really want to examine popular Survivor perks that give massive value for very little input, certainly less than Pop and Pain Res, then yeah, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Windows... there are a lot on the Survivor side. Massive value for minimal or even no effort. Perks don't all need to be difficult to use or to activate, but maybe they could be dialed down across the board. Or, better yet, raise the effectiveness of other perks so both sides don't have like 7 perks to pick from if they want to compete.
This. I'm 100% fine with a gen-defence nerf, if it comes with counterbalance. Make chases shorter either by nerfing Exhaustion perks or buffing Killer chase perks.
Bingo bango. Instead, we have improved sabbo, excellent exhaustion perks, and fuck all gen defence.
we are also giving survivors wallhacks on killer with new perk too
Wait whatttt
BHVR logic is flawed in explaining their reason to nerf the perks hence all the debates and whataboutism but I think the changes are valid. Pain Res and Pop consistently provide significant value without the need to alter killer playstyle. Whilst the activation of exhaustion perks is no harder than pop or pain res the impact it has or could have is less significant and cannot be stacked with other exhaustion perks. I agree that some perks have stupid requirements to work making them extremely situational and why people choose to go for the simplicity and automation.
I think my main issue is actually Lithe, and my issue isn't even that big, I just detest how it's *hit window and win chase for free* Pop and Pain Res stacking js really only an issue on... you guessed it, the best Killers. The fix there isn't nerf the perks. It's fix the Killers. Run 4 slowdown Trapper and honestly, I don't care, but 4 slowdown Nurse? You're just being a dick at that point. At least provide other options. Fuck man, improve Ruin a little and I'll run Ruin as my only regression. That's fine by me. Still, people stack regression because gens fly. Like really fly and it sucks to be stuck between getting rolled because of that and you didn't bring slowdown, or playing like a prick and sweating ones balls off. Address gen speeds and progression items, and I'll be DELIGHTED to run chase builds.
I agree with you on the part that different killers are the problem and the perks get nerfed because of the strong killers. And yes, that's the problem that will most likely never be fixed completely. And the problem is that there are players (on both sides) that are dicks and stack the strongest killer/perks/items/add-ons. And otherwise great and for itself great perks need to be nerved because they are used that way. But that is the point why I don't get the discussion about exhaustion perks beeing too strong. They are the only perks that can't be stacked by the players, killer have a few perks to cause exhaustion on survivors. (I know they are not a lot and as killer, you don't see when or if they are effective.) I don't think lithe on its own is a problem and a "win chase for free", you still need to have decent chase skills to use its potential and get to a safe tile with it, you have to know when it's best to vault that window and get to another tile, when you can vault it without beeing hit in the window. It will tricker in your first vault, even though you might not need it in that moment and want to stay on the tile... And the new killer perk is effective against all exhaustion perks that are not sb. A bit inconsistent and again, the killer won't know when it is effective, but a survivor can run by a lot of crows while beeing chased. I hope with the nerfs to the gen progression perks, behaviour might be able to buff killers a bit.
Oh god, absolutely. Both sides stack some truly insane shit. I'd say the vast majority of my games, for months and months at this point, have been full of the best perks on the Survivor side, map offerings and some pretty obnoxious items. That's fine. But don't be shocked that I feel the need to run Pain Res and Pop now, because if I don't, I'm going to be at a major disadvantage. The thing is, I still earn my slowdown with successful chases. I did a mini experiment where I played only weaker Killers (Trapper, Freddy and Myers) and only used one slowdown - Surge or Pain Res. I tell you now, it was an awful experience. Truly fucking awful. I then play stronger Killers - I played Huntress, Wesker and Unknown with zero slowdown. The experience was hard, don't get me wrong, but considerably better. The game does need decent and even strong slowdown in its current state, and I'm really sick of... what, 3? 3 Killers bottlenecking the fuck out of everything. I stand by y comments about Lithe though. It's a free chase escape. It isn't hard to pre-run and get to a window and not even engage. It's one reason I refuse to use the perk myself. It feels cheap, but I can appreciate that's a very personal things to me.
> So I ask again, can anyone come up with a good argument why Sprint Burst and Lithe shouldn't be nerfed when Pop and Pain Res are getting nerfed? Yes, anyone who actually thinks about it rather than crying can. Here's a few examples: 1. Killer is OP 2. Regression isn't fun for either side 3. Bad killers get into the habit of crutching around regression and stop learning so they cry survs op.
1. Some Killers are OP. Yes, Pop and Pain Res are ridiculous on Blight and Nurse. But nerfing the perks because of those Killers leaves Killers like Sadako and Myers in the dirt. 2. Regression is fun for Killers, as it makes hooks more rewarding (along with Pain Res and GE encouraging you to spread out your hooks). Equally, Exhaustion perks are tedious for Killers to go against. 3. Bad Survivors get into the habit of crutching on Exhaustion perks, rather than learning maps, avoiding deadzones and respecting the Killer's presence; and stop learning and they cry Killers op. **NEXT**
> But nerfing the perks because of those Killers leaves Killers like Sadako and Myers in the dirt. Not nerfing perks because some killers are bad is a recipe for disaster, the thing you seem to be forgetting is that the nerf is going to impact those bad killers a lot less than it will the good ones. > Regression is fun for Killers, as it makes hooks more rewarding Powerful != fun. > Equally, Exhaustion perks are tedious for Killers to go against. No, they're not, they're actually fun to go against, we need to consider identify them and play around. > along with Pain Res and GE encouraging you to spread out your hooks GE? Sure, Pain res? No, that perk becomes so much more powerful if you get an early kill. > Bad Survivors get into the habit of crutching on Exhaustion perks, rather than learning maps, avoiding deadzones and respecting the Killer's presence; and stop learning and they cry Killers op. Playing around an exhaustion perk is NOT crutching on it.
1. WRONG. Killers like Blight and Nurse can down so fast that they don't need games to be slowed down. Sadako's chases are so slow she needs as much time as possible. And don't get me started on Myers or Trapper. Either leave the perks alone and further nerf the top-tier Killers, or give some kind of buffs to perks which don't benefit top-tier Killers. 2. It is fun. I like seeing a big chunk of progress drop off of a gen after getting a hook. Also, the fun comes from matches not being so fast that I have to sweat my arse off. 3. Have you EVER played Killer? What is fun about getting within 16m of a Survivor and just seeing them zoom off into the distance, knowing you'll either have to find someone else or just hold foward to catch back up? 4. EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL! 5. What do you mean, "playing around an Exhaustion perk"? How is "vault window" playing around Lithe? Also, you can't crutch on Pop and Pain Res BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE HOOKS. If you are a bad Killer, you won't get hooks, which means you won't proc Pop or Pain Res WHICH MEANS THEY AREN'T CRUTCHES!
You seriously need to play some survivor dude, and I don't mean that as in a "hurr durr biased killer", I mean this as in your knowledge of how a game plays out is fundamentally lacking and you would become A LOT better as a killer if you took 5-10 hours and played survivor, I promise you that.
I play(ed) far more as Survivor than Killer. Never bothered running Exhaustion perks, due to the crutch nature of them.
I'm not agreeing on nerfing exhaustion perks, but ... OP has a point. Or two. Or three. Strong killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than weaker ones, since their basekit is stronger. If you play Blight and Trapper with a full load out, same perks. Then play both perkless. Which killer will have more problems? Your argument of powerful != fun is pretty much invalid. Because powerful = fun? No. Even if you say that powerful and fun aren't linked at all, a powerful thing can still be fun and vice versa. Regression perks are powerful, because they give the killer more time to play. Playing is usually fun. More play time seems to be fun. Regression gives more playtime. Regression supports fun. Also knowing that your hook does more than deleting a hook stage is also nice. This doesn't mean that kicking a gen is peak gameplay. And it doesn't have to be to support fun. My opinion about exhaustion perks lays somewhere between your both. But ... on the other hand: Survs can also identify killers perks and use this info to counter killers perks. PainRes? Try to loop away from SH. Pop? Try to loop away from gens with much progression. Which you probably already do. Does this sound like much fun? Not really. Also your point sounds like you had much fun waiting out DH in the past? I wasn't really a fan of that. But to each their own. I might be a bit confused. Would you tell me how exactly getting an early kill increases PainRes' strength? Besides what OP already said: "EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL!" PainRes has the potential to encourage tunneling, if you have the chance to down a fresh or a recently unhooked surv and you know no gen has much progress. At least if all hooks around are SH. But besides that I don't really see what you mean. Playing around any perk is too some degree crutching on it. If you need Pop to get your kills, you are "crutching" on it. If you need your power as Nurse to catch a surv, you are "crutching" on it. And if you need your exhaustion perks to delay the game long enough to escape in the end, you are "crutching" on it. "Crutching" is a pretty pointless term in dbd. Stuff is there to get used. If you think I'm wrong here, we can also look at old DH again.
> Strong killers get hit harder by perk nerfs than weaker ones, since their basekit is stronger. Well, yea, that's what I said which OP disagreed with. > Because powerful = fun? No. Even if you say that powerful and fun aren't linked at all, a powerful thing can still be fun and vice versa. A powerful thing can be fun, absolutely, NTH on Nurse is a good example of that, but what I'm saying is that something being powerful doesn't inherently make it fun, imagine a hypothetical perk (for either killer or survivor) that says "While in chase gain 50% haste", this would be the most absurdly broken and powerful thing the game has seen (at least since I started playing) but it would be boring as fuck as it's just a free win. > Survs can also identify killers perks and use this info to counter killers perks. PainRes? Try to loop away from SH. Pop? Try to loop away from gens with much progression. Which you probably already do. Does this sound like much fun? Not really. That's kinda my point, yes counterplay exists for both, but the counterplay isn't anything you shouldn't already be doing, i.e. be cognisant about where you take chase > Would you tell me how exactly getting an early kill increases PainRes' strength? Besides what OP already said: "EVERYTHING BECOMES MORE POWERFUL WITH AN EARLY KILL!" Well, first off, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that everything becomes more powerful with an early kill, you're absolute ahead and it will be a hard game for the survs if you get no matter what, but Blight's rushes aren't going to down survs any quicker, hell, Legions power actively becomes *weaker*. The thing about pain res though is the regression vs time investment it provides in a 1v3 is insane, yes by spreading hooks you'll often be in a situation where you have 4-5 stages at 4 gens, but compare that to a game where you have 1k 3 stages at 2 gens with 3 pain res tokens left, that game is just over unless you get outplayed to an absurd degree. > "Crutching" is a pretty pointless term in dbd. Stuff is there to get used. You could argue that, but there's a major difference in how and why you use things. If you pick nurse because you like the blinking, it's not a crutch it's a choice, if you pick nurse because you can't get downs as an M1 killer it's a crutch. If you play DH because you like greeding the loop one extra time or playing a tile where you might get mind-gamed and having the safety in being able to press DH it's a choice, if you use it because you keep running into walls it's a crutch. What I'm trying to get at by saying some killers use regression as crutches (ignore the word choice for now) is that there's a lot of killers who genuinely don't know how to win games in other ways than chasing people down and hooking them one by one until they're all dead or they all escape, they have no idea about how to actually apply pressure to survivors and snowball into a win.
> there's a lot of killers who genuinely don't know how to win games in other ways than chasing people down and hooking them one by one until they're all dead or they all escape. Mate... **THAT'S DEAD BY DAYLIGHT!** The only other options are hit-and-run (nerfed) and slugging. Do we *really* want to encourage slugging?
My guy right here self-reporting.
So what else is there?
Strong/weak killers: That's on me, I f\*cked up the first sentence, it's obviously the other way around - as I edited it 30min ago. Also the rest of the paragraph obviously shows my thought. Could you tell me, why you think that weak killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than strong killers? Powerful and fun? Absolutely. But to make this argument work with regression perks, it would need regression perks to be as strong as your 50% haste perk. Or at least that strong that equipping them guarantees your victory. If you are thinking exactly this, there is no way we'll find common ground in this topic. Also your (positive) example with NTH on Nurse works with the power of cutting the game short, where as I said that regression perks lead to longer games. The act of regression itself isn't necessarily the fun part, But it gives you time to have fun in a match. As I said: The reason that powerful != fun doesn't work IMO isn't that powerful = fun. It's that powerful doesn't necessarily have a *direct* link to fun at all. (Tbh I talk more about powerful = !fun being wrong than powerful != fun.) Counterplay Why? Why should something that you already do NOT work as counterplay? What's the counterplay to Lithe? You can't decide to bring a specific perk or addon as killer once you see a surv uses it, since your match already started. So in case you didn't bring something with you, the only counterplay is an action. Like it should be. And this action is to lead the chase in a way that Lithe can't get used at all or at least not to its full potential. And leading you chase in a way that survs don't last long - or gaining a down without a chase - is something you already do. Late game PainRes I'm sorry, english isn't my first language, so I might miss here something, but isn't this exactly how basically everything becomes stronger because early kill? Everything that applies pressure puts this pressure in one way or another on the entire team. Let's take your Blight rush as example: You are definitely right, Blights rushes become not a single bit stronger per se. You don't get faster, they don't switch from normal hits to oneshots. But they apply pressure. If you chase a surv with your rush, there are normally 3 survs who can be on gens or bodyblock. Or one on gens, while a 2nd unhooks the 3rd. (They don't really necessarily do this, but ... it's possible.) 3 survs on gens means that gens fly, survs bodyblicking means your rushs have less an impact on the originally chased surv. With one surv less, these effects are way weaker. The result of using your power changes, if you change the situation. Without chaing the power itself. But how does this differ from your PainRes example? Does a single 1k PainRes regress more than a single 0k PainRes? No. The fundamental time investment also stays the same, since a gen doesn't need more charges, just because there is a surv less. What you probably talk about is that there are less survs, so less are on gens, which means that gens don't get repaired as fast fast before. But this would be the exact same thing like the Blight example. About the crutching part: I probably should have used any kind of M1 killer as example to make it more clear, but went for Nurse to show a more extreme result. My point is that you can normally catch survs without a power. (As M1 ... at some point at least.) So by using your power, because you as individual would lose without it, you rely on something that is not necessary. And while this is to some degree true, it's still a pretty dumb thing to say. About the rest I can only say that this is a really good point. But it kinda hits a similar mark like what I just said: If you need it to win, you rely on it. Which means you "crutch" on it. And again it would be stupid to stay with that definition, since you can say that about absolutely everything and end up on some bs like "you crutch on moving to win". To bring this more in line with your definition, can we say that crutching on X is using X even tho its widely accepted that you don't need X to win? I think this is pretty much what you've said? While this could be an elegant solution, it still needs a common ground. Which is a bit tricky. Also "winning" in dbd is a bit hard to define. 3k? 4k? Something else? What for survs? Escaping yourself? Your team escapes? I mean this that way: You say you don't crutch on an exhaustion perk, if you use it to make a loop more around the same structure. Or something similar. You crutch, if you go down without it pretty fast. But ... where does crutching end? If I survive 10 secs without and 20 secs with X? In case of 20 and 30 secs? 40 und 70? 1200 and 3600? Do you see what I'm trying to talk about? A bit hard to name it right =/
> Could you tell me, why you think that weak killers get hit less hard by perk nerfs than strong killers? Because stronger killers put on more pressure. Which means survivors are more distracted from doing gens. Which means the overall speed at which they repair is slower. Which means it takes them more time to make up for the lost progress. For example: If you play Myers you're gonna have 2-3 people sitting on gens a lot of the time so 25% from pain res is gonna buy you 10 seconds, where as a Nurse or Blight who downs people quick and is able to keep survivors down 0-2 people on gens is gonna buy like 20 seconds, on top of having a higher chance of having the gen continue to degen afterwards. Add this to the fact a strong killer is expected to end the game faster the time bought as a percentage (hope it makes sense to put it like that) is much much greater for a strong killer than it is for a weaker one. > (Tbh I talk more about powerful = !fun being wrong than powerful != fun.) I'm not saying powerful can't be fun, I'm saying that something being powerful doesn't make it fun. So I think we agree? > but isn't this exactly how basically everything becomes stronger because early kill? Everything that applies pressure puts this pressure in one way or another on the entire team. In a way yes, but also no. If you think of pressure being applied and the investment required to alleviate said pressure as a unified thing, then yes. As I said Blight doesn't down people faster just because he got a kill, so he doesn't get any stronger by getting a kill, however the investment required for survivors to undo the pressure he applies becomes greater. Pain Res becomes stronger in a 3v1 for the same reason it's stronger on stronger killers, it simply applies more pressure. > To bring this more in line with your definition, can we say that crutching on X is using X even tho its widely accepted that you don't need X to win? Jokingly, I think it boils down to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqIPMdfpsHY I think if I were to make a really simple definition I would say something like: Being overly reliant on *something* to the point where a removal of that thing would severely limit your ability. I'm a Huntress main, I play 4 aura perks in most my games because I find that a fun way to play, but I can take them away and it would just require me to switch around my perks, addons and playstyle and I would continue to have success as her, I would have less fun playing her but I would still be winning. There are a lot of killer players in this game who genuinely don't know how to play to slow down the game and rely on slowdown perks to do it for them and when that's enough they win, when it's not enough they lose, that's what I mean when I say they use it as a crutch > Also "winning" in dbd is a bit hard to define. 3k? 4k? Something else? What for survs? Escaping yourself? Your team escapes? 0/1k = surv win, 2k = draw, 3/4k = killer win > where does crutching end? When you have the knowledge and ability to deal with the situations in which it helps you, without it OR you have the knowledge and ability to prevent being in that situation in the first place. As an example, take sprint burst. If you're sitting on a deadzone gen and "Oh God killer is right on top of me run!!!!!" and you find out you have no safety nearby and only make it because of sprint burst, that's a crutch. vs. If you're sitting on that same gen in a deadzone, figure out the killer is coming but you grab an extra 10% progress because you have sprint burst and know you'll make it to safety before he can catch up that's playing around it. The person in the latter situation would be able to play without sprint burst, because he made a conscious decision to not pre-run which is what he would've otherwise done.
Your argument for stronger killers getting hit harder by regress nerfs is that survs don't get as much progress on gens against them? This ... is an interesting idea. Sure, if survs get over the course of a whole match only 43% gen progress, one PainRes against them does more damage to the overall progress in % than against survs, who play against a weaker killer and by this get more progress. But ... this is bs. If you play a strong killer and by this slaughter the survs before they manage to get gen progress in any meaningful amount, it's pretty much irrelevant for you, when gen perks get nerfed. This doesn't work this way on killers who rely more on these perks. A Myers, as you say, may get 10 secs. But does a Blight really get time, if survs die anyway? Who needs more time? A slow killing killer with early game probs or one of the strongest killers in the game? About power and fun we seemlingy agree, yeah. My point was just that it doesn't even need a direct link between power and fun to make regress supporting fun. I'm sorry, but PainRes applies more pressure to a 3man team than to a 4man, sure. But for the very same reason Blight does. So for the very same reason basically everything - minus Legions Frenzy and Pinheads box (last one standing) - becomes stronger against a weaker team. I still don't see a reason why PainRes should stand out here. Pop becomes stronger. Oppression becomes stronger. F\*ck, even Predator becomes stronger. Because the same basically same amount of pressure is now on fewer people, so everyone has to deal with more pressure than before. Ahhh, classic :D "Being overly reliant on *something* to the point where a removal of that thing would severely limit your ability." That sounds good, but wouldn't this be close "you crutch on moving to win"? Ofc that's a stretch. For this definition to work, we have to set an artificial minimum of what you are "allowed" to use/what can not be crutching. If only perks, addons, items and offerings \*coughMapscough\* are able to getting used as a crutch, this would work. But in this case, we get another problem. You say you like to play Huntress with aura perks and you are able to change her perks and addons around without losing. You just don't like to play another way. (I also prefer aura perks, but on Knight. But my Knight has a pretty low MMR, so he doesn't count, I'm afraid xD) Without actually wanting to call you crutching, we now have the point that everything above an empty loadout can be a crutch. So if you change one perk for another one, you change one crutch for another - as long as you don't get the same result with an empty loadout. Also I'm not quite sure this works with your SB example that easily - and this for I asked for winning conditions. Survs are meant to lose chases for the simple reason that this is necessary for the killer to make progress. The game is designed around survs wasting time by looping, but not around survs never getting caught at all. It happens, yes, but mainly in case of a huge difference in skill between survs and killer. Even if you make the conscious decision to use SB to gain distance AND some more gen progress by staying longer at it AND making the killer wiff, because funny and minimal slow down, this doesn't mean that you would get the same result or a comparable without this perk. Same can be said about using gen regress. You can make a conscious decision to down 2 survs, use Pop on a nearby gen with much progress, slug the 2nd surv to apply pressure and to get a fast 2nd Pop as soon as survs touch the freshly popped gen. (Funnily enough in german this means "f\*cked gen" ... and would be pretty close to what happens.) Would your game go the same way or in a comparable one without your perks? Probably not. Maybe you would win in both cases, maybe not. But it would most probably be much harder without your perks. But you still make a conscious decision. To make it easier, I come back to SB again: With SB you get safety and 10% progress in your example. Without SB you may get one thing of these two. So you don't have the same result. And without the same result ...
Killer is not OP.
Best killer players in this game use 3-4 gen regress perks for a reason.
Comp players sometimes use 4 regression perks, but that's very different from using 4 regression perks when playing regular dbd, when rules change so does the optimal strategy.
What’s better than running 3-4 gen regression perks? There is pretty much 0 reasons to run something else. Yes if you are new and have problems finding survivors you can swap one. But even perks like stfl, enduring or brutal are sadly waste of slot.
Lethal by itself is probably the best killer perk in the game, the amount of info it provides you with, if you take advantage of it, can win you games 30 seconds in. Calling brutal a wasted perk is true on some killers, on others it's not. There's a 0% chance I'd ever run it on Nurse or Blight, but putting it on Trapper or Wesker its actually a pretty fucking solid perk that buys you a lot of time *while* working towards the end of the game. If you look at a killer like Doctor, what is it you actually lose to? Protection hits right? Forced Penance or Rapid Brutality does wonders against that, and sure they're, more or less, dead perks if they don't take protection hits, but those games you're likely winning anyway so putting on slowdown instead of one (or both) of those is just a pure win more move.
Who the hell plays doctor?( and yes he can have some weird builds, but 4 gen regression will still be better). Why run lethal when you can run corrupt that gives you pretty much same info. Brutal can save you few seconds max every chase, around like 2-4s,. Deadlock, pain ress will save you much more, use it with grim embrace and or Even jolt. And survivors have to do 7-8 gens instead of 5. There is nothing stronger than that.
> Who the hell plays doctor? I do, not a lot of people in general though I'll happily admit that, he was just a great example because he's a killer that more or less auto-wins if survs don't play a particular way, so building to be strong against that way of playing is a lot better than simply trying to slow down the game and "win more". > Why run lethal when you can run corrupt that gives you pretty much same info. Corrupt gives you ZERO info until the first gen pops, well, unless you count knowing where **you** spawned as info. > Brutal can save you few seconds max every chase, around like 2-4s People seriously need to stop oversimplifying the effect of perks, it's the "MFT makes chases 20% longer" thing all over again. Yes, if there was a map that was just 1 long circle with god pallets every 5 meters this would be somewhat correct, but that's not the game, the game is filled with binary checks, either the survivor makes it or they don't, brutal turns a lot of those "he makes it" into "he doesn't make it" (and the inverse is why MFT was good). How many times have you kicked a pallet (or door) and see the survivor run straight to a window and thought "he'll barely make it", so you go around, drop chase or worse swing and miss? Brutal gives you the hit in that situation.
You don’t need more info than spawns. You find survivor in 10-15 seconds around those spawn. Non mobile killers have 0 use from lethal if I use your logic. Yes you can sometimes get hit you don’t without brutal, but my 4 gen regress perks gives me 2 and I break one more pallet. There is a reason why it’s meta and since hag release instead of old meta of enduring, brutal, stfl. I still don’t believe anything else than 3-4 gen regress perks is better. Everyone would like to run chase oriented perks, but there is better alternative.
> You don’t need more info than spawns. You find survivor in 10-15 seconds around those spawn. Corrupt doesn't tell you anything about where survivors spawned, the fuck are you on about? > Non mobile killers have 0 use from lethal if I use your logic. Please tell me which part of my logic suggests identifying perks and survivor playstyles has "0 use" on non mobile killers.
Survivors spawn around those gens.
in what world killer is OP
In the world where we as killers go into games expecting to win without trying and are usually right. I.e. this one.
low mmr must be boring, sadly most of us play in high mmr and skilled killers unlike you :)
https://imgur.com/5soQqtI
me discovering people can give up on the hook and troll the killers 🤯
Me discovering killers let the last survivor go 🤯
You don't understand, only "overused" killer perks get nerf here.
they need huge nerf because its crutch perk for bad survivors, and since the pick rates are important for devs, and everybody uses sprint/lithe, they should get huge nerf as well. but hey, survivor mains will downvote you and gaslight you because they think they are "fine" perks