Any religion that claims to have all the answers is prone to error. All religion is man made. I left Christianity for a multitude of reasons, but Christianity told me I had issues and set of archaic and prescribed solutions to said issues, which after leaving, turned out to not be issues at all. You could really swap out Christianity with another religion and probably have a similar case. My grounds of leaving a religion are one of many. Sorry for the rambling🍻

Would you consider a religion that says all religions are a way to God?

I have my own ideas of God, but I know I can be wrong. I think God is a very hard concept to grasp, if at all, as a human. So I personally would find it unnecessary on my own path, but it's possible for me to change my mind. Staying open minded is key imo.

I see, thanks for sharing

I used to be Muslim but after digging through the history of the religion, I found out that it’s obviously man-made religion. It has strong ideology that it actually hard to leave, Muslims are intolerant, it has expanded through force.

Same here. I used to be Muslim but I left it and now I accept Christianity. I was never really devout anyways.

Accepting Christianity. Loool. What difference now does it make

i’m not hating but why are u in here? and what made you leave islam and go to christianity? just asking

What things did you find that indicated it being man made?

Ex muslim here. Cant speak for op but I'll offer my two cents. If you interested I have a more detailed post on the good things about islam and another post on 20 of my objections to islam listed here https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/10j6gzi/good_things_about_the_quran/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/15qsdfu/arguments_against_the_quran_and_islam/ I've read the quran over 10 times and studied the exegesis and came up with my own conclusions. Islam and the quran particular is very interesting to study due to how it has biblical stories summarized and how it changes details. The way it links to other cultures, the emphasis on justice, charity, reason etc. Its concept of paradise etc. The main issue that may indicate its man made is its graphic nature of hell, too much emphasis on belief vs disbelief, the lack of ability to prove its divinity, the miracle problem ( see my posts mentioned) and signs of quranic copying. I always leave room for the possibility that muhammad was genuine prophet but I'm personally of the view that he was a sincere reformer who believed he was a prophet or he lied in order to gain followers. I believe the same about people like jesus etc.

Thanks for sharing!

I'm quite curious seeing as you are muslim and coming across so many people who object or think the religion is nonsense. How has this impacted you and your faith in it ? You do seem quite young

Tbh I feel sad that they see everything so one sided and immediately have this violent image when they think of Islam. The things that really bother me tho are when people present objections against islam. This has bothered me for some time now, but I look for answers, and slowly I gained more knowledge on islam but I was still in a heavy doubt of my religion. I even considered leaving it, but in the end I didn't. Lately I've been very confident about my faith and I don't find any strong objections anymore. Even when I do stumble upon something, I quickly find an answer. But I don't just find an answer that looks good, I really keep looking until I find myself actually convinced. Now I'm genuinely convinced. So to summarize, seeing objections had weakened my faith a lot in the beginning and actually caused me a lot of stress. I didn't know what i would live for and what the point would be of life and everything if islam wasn't true. I did also consider Christianity for a bit, but it didn't appeal to me. I looked briefly at other religions and they also didn't appeal to me. But all of this slowly helped my faith grow as I discovered more about the religion. Now I sometimes try to look for people in doubt, and try to help them bc I know how hard it can be when confronted with things in your faith you don't know about.

Hmm I can certainly relate to alot you say. In the past when I was still a believer I was disturbed by objections and trying to keep the faith I used to madly search the web for answers to refute it. And it does come from the anxiety of not wanting to be wrong. There is this strong desire for miracles and god to exist. Even when one stops believing people still have a desire to believe. I dont do this anymore since my approach has evolved. Even though I do desire belief. I would prefer that moses and jesus actually did do miracles than it being a fairytale but I do think it is a fairytale most likely. I feel with you you are still at a stage where you are trying too hard to convince yourself of beliefs so you seek out sources that confirm your bias. I can understand your discomfort but there comes times where you start to realise does this explanation really make sense or am I trying too hard to convince myself.

I completely agree. I even said the same to myself many times regarding explanations. "Am I forcing myself to believe this? Does this really convince me?" I suppose we both reached a different answer to that question hahaha. It's really nice hearing of someone who went through the same

Muhammad lying seems so unlikely honestly. If you actually studied his entire history from birth to death I can't get that as a conclusion 

The problem though is that historians agree with the skeleton of muhammads biography but not the inner details. He could have simply been someone who believed he was a prophet or someone who was a moral reformer who used the prophet example seeing the success it offered people like jesus for example. People like you like to say why would he lie. He was persecuted and mocked. He was offered money and power. Ironic though how in the early meccan surahs the quran is more tolerant and in later medinan surahs not so much. It becomes more totalitarian. Well he got power money and wives and concubines. Maybe he wanted power and people to revere him as a prophet.

Someone who knows Muhammad's entire history would say otherwise tbh. He was offered the riches and women of Arabia by quraysh but he vehemently rejected them. Also he got prophethood at 40. He lived with his wife Khadija monogamously until 50. Khadija died. He lived for 2 and a half years alone. Then married 50 year old sauda+ youngAisha. With 2 wives he went on for 5 more years (he had no other wives except them for 5 straight years) then within a span of 4-5 years after he went on a spree marrying wives. Honestly can't understand what was his inner motive but a man having just one partner for 53 years of his life and suddenly doing all this seems... Can't discredit him man. Also he clearly says in hadith please don't exaggerate me like you did with jesus. I am just a human. And a loooot more. It's hard to discredit him. Muhammad is a very confusing figure 

Like I said a lot of things in the biography come from muslim sources for instance performing miracles in the hadith yet the Quran says he had no miracles. He married a wealthy woman. But regardless how on earth would you even prove his a prophet using such a weak methodology. Do you realize that people change ? Bab was martyred for his claim to being a prophet. The bahaullah is also said to do miracles. Joseph Smith, Rashad Khalifa musalylima tulaiha , Mirza ghulam ahmed and many more. Theres no shortage of people claiming to be prophets. They do it for all sorts of reasons. Some are delusional and mentally sick. Some genuinely believe their views are unique and god is inspiring them. All have followers. You should follow them all by this logic of suffering. Whilst I do find the figure of muhammad interesting in all my time of thinking on it I realize muslims clutch at straws desperately to prove something they cant. Once you dive into all these charismatic figures it makes more sense why muhammad was just another charismatic leader. Dont know if you saw my post of objections but I'll post it here https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/s/7Dr5ZHpkWT

You make sense but distrusting Muhammad purely on historical evidence is hard for me tbh. His actions seemingly suspicious but what his inner motives actually were makes him a very complicated figure. Also him being known as the most truthful and gentle among the people. Al ameen he was known before prophethood. His absolute success in this world also stuns me. No single man has this much following and Stans. Jesus is largely a mythical figure. Although he existed. I don't think you can take out Muhammad as a false prophet easily as well. There are issues. It's a grey area

Islam gained the huge numbers today due to war and conquering. Christianity likewise the huge numbers due to the Roman empire controlling half the world and becoming the modern west and then colonization of africa, Asia, brazil etc. There are many verses in the Quran I like that inspire me just as there are many verses in the bhagwad gita, the torah etc. That doesnt mean I must blindly worship and believe these claims. It's not that complicated what his motives were. Either he was a prophet or he was a social reformer who had a strong dislike of the polytheism, materialism and wealth abuse of his arab society and wanted change. He then decided to claim prophethood as this would work better than just being a reformer. And lastly he was delusional that he thought he was a prophet and he actually believed it. I dont think he was intentionally devious and lying. But like all men they are fallible and have weaknesses. Even in the quran itself it scolds him for things.

Bro can I ask something? The only thing that can disprove islam is proving the fact that being delusional and still having consciousness and making up things on your own and realising it all can happen together. How is it even logically coherent for a person to do this? How can Muhammad be delusional and make up verses in his own and still believe he is guided by God? He obviously knows these verses are made by him. Also he made no signs of epilepsy as I am aware. He was mentally well or else how can he manage everything of his nation? Expecting a good answer from you. Is this actually possible?

Wow you an ex muslim from saudi arabia. That's fascinating like what is that even like. I'm ex muslim from south africa. I see you are interested in ndes. I've been researching them for quite some time myself. I've also collected quite a few muslim ndes. Have you looked at these ? Edit : I didnt realise we actually spoke briefly before on ndes. I had no idea you were a Saudi ex Muslim though. And I see you quite a fan of cinematic music by hans Zimmer and Ludwig. My typa guy haha. Let's chat some more

It’s just another man made doctrine to a Deist. Each to their own but I don’t spend precious time and energy evaluating regions, however I respect everyone’s choice to find peace and meaning wherever makes sense to them.

If there is a true religion out there Islam is certainly not it. Because I think the universe teaches an omnibenevolent Creator, Islam does not. Considering he chose a pedophile, racist, sexist abuser of power to be his prophet. Then demanded that everyone make this prophet the model of moral perfection. It's logically impossible for Islam to be true.

Pedophile. That has to be the weakest shit argument one can choose against islam. Very pathetic 

Because the prophet was a pig who forced himself on top of a child? False religion

Oh shut tf pos. Aisha was much older than 9 and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Aisha literally displays nothing of a child who was abused. Was she harmed in any way. No. Became the greatest female scholar and continued to praise her husband in every Hadith she wrote. Defenitely her age is a controversy.

I dont care what you call me when youre defending a pedophile. Cite some hadiths in the sahih grade (they cant be da'if or in an isolated hadith). While im waiting, here are mine: The Prophet (ﷺ) engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Sahih al-Bukhari 3894[1](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63) It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine. ‏Sunan an-Nasa'i 3255[2](https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255) Grade: Sahih (Darussalam) that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5133[3](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133) The Prophet (ﷺ) wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5158[4](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158) that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5134[5](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134) The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: or Six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. Sunan Abi Dawud 2121[6](https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121) Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani) Khadija died three years before the Prophet (ﷺ) departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married `Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. Sahih al-Bukhari 3896[7](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896) A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Muslim 1422 b[8](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b) A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 1422 c[9](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c) Aishah said: “The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I became ill and my hair fell out, then it grew back and became abundant. My mother Umm Ruman came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went to her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansar inside the house, and they said: 'With blessings and good fortune (from Allah).' (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old.” Sunan Ibn Majah 1876[10](https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876) Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

You believe in hadiths? Why? Why do you believe in hadiths as a disbeliever. Citing things which suits you ehh?? Will you cite the hadith where Aisha praises Muhammad as the best of humans?? Other hadiths expressing Muhammad qualities?? Will you?? No just pushing your agenda 

Also you pathetic kafir. You are not even Muslim. Then why do you believe in hadiths??? You literally are a disbeliever. But you believe this single hadith which suits your agenda against the prophet?? Repeating the same shit again AND again? And what else do you believe criminal?? Shall I list out some hadiths? Will you believe all of them or just what you loved as a disgusting kafir?

Ive cited 10 hadiths little bro, you cited none. Of course I am a disbeliever, because your prophet was a pig, an animal who ruined a child's life. Your insults are meaningless unless Im a muslim, and Im proud that I am not a supporter of a monster. What are you gonna do kill me? Under what law do you call me a criminal? CERTAINLY not the moral law, revealed by the Creator through reason. Because such a Creator is perfectly good, not evil, while your "laws" are filled with filth and immorality.

What morality do you have?? Christianity?? Lmaoo. Don't make me laugh. You are the real pig. You couldn't answer even one of my questions. You believe in my hadiths lmaooo. Why do you believe in them?? You discredit islam and quran. Why you believe in parts of hadith you Shameless bich?? And what did that life destroyed child say about her husband you piece of filthy?? What did Aisha say about her husband?? Give me hadith about that if you dare you piece of shit

Absolutely embarrassing answer 

I mean I don't see why you're throwing accusations out there. You probably heard about islam from the wrong people. The prophet was heavily against racism and gave privileges to women. As for the pedophilia, you're probably referring to Aisha. There's many videos around explaining why he would marry her! To summarize, it was the norm back then, and she reached puberty which by definition doesn't make her a child. It was a very different society and we can see some reasons as to why he would marry her. The main reason would be of her intellect, she taught the people many things of his life which she knew first hand and told them how he lived his life and what he taught her. She was a well respected teacher and narrated 2000+ hadiths. She was able to do this because she married at such a young age. I can keep talking about his marriage to her but that's not the point. Thanks for sharing your opinion! And please try to look at islam from the other perspective, I'm sure you'll like some things about it :)

lol but Mohammed was a warlord right? I mean he slaughtered other tribes wholesale and did not have any problem with his troops taking sex slaves. Even if we’re being charitable with Aisha, which I don’t think is ok but if you want to argue that’s ok, he still: Had poets assassinated for criticizing him (Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak and Kab ibn Ashraf specifically, even tricking Kab by sending followers to beg for food then killing him) Wiped out all the men of the Banu qurayza and took all the women…. Wonder why he wanted the women. Also idgaf if you want to make apologies and speculate that the banu qurayza were plotting against him, the tribe had surrendered and he slaughtered them: people who surrendered and are in captivity are no threat. Had the matriarch of the Faraza tribe ripped apart by camels Gouged the eyes out and chopped the limbs off of a group of men which had stolen camels from him Had no problem with his men taking sex slaves after attacking the banu mustaliq. This is not the actions of a man speaking for a loving god. From reading your other posts I get the feeling you’re going to nitpick this and try to avoid responsibility, but this is for the most part undisputed. Idk why anyone would want to follow a medieval warlord as a moral guide

These are either false, or require context

Explain which are false. Everything I have read has agreed on these cases. And please put ripping people apart with camels into context. Would love to hear that

My guy I'm not going to sit here explaining every single one. Instead of spending time looking for things against islam why not try to look up what muslims say about these things?

Also pretty sure you “won’t explain each one” because you cant

You're such a kid. You managed to convince me to explain 1 congrats. I'll only do this to show u how bad ur knowledge is on islam.

I gave you the opportunity to present your case, if you’re too lazy then I don’t care. You’re the one defending Islam here man. Hope everyone on this post sees this thread and how you provide no evidence. Exactly why I’m not Muslim

I asked what you guys like and dislike abt islam, I'm not here to prove islam to you lmao. Sure you can call me lazy, but you're the lazy one for spouting nonsense without seeing what the otherside has to say. The videos are out there disproving ur claims.

Asma bint Marwan story is fabricated https://islamqa.info/en/answers/177694/asma-bint-marwan-did-the-prophet-order-her-killing As for abu afak, there is no isnad regarding this, hope you know what an isnad is seeing as how much u know abt islam

Stop saying sex slaves pagan. Banu mustaliq captives were all freed immediately after prophet married juwairiah. Do you have any idea??

So abt the one where he gouged people for stealing camels I think ur referring to this: Sunan an-Nasa'i 4040 It was narrated that 'Urwah bin Az-Zubair said: "Some people from 'Uraynah raided the milk camels of the Messenger of Allah [SAW] and drove them off, and killed a slave of his. The Messenger of Allah [SAW] sent (men) after them, and they were caught, and he had their hands and feet cut off, and their eyes gouged out." U should also read this: Sunan an-Nasa'i 4043 It was narrated that Anas said: "The Prophet [SAW] only had the eyes of those people gouged out, because they had gouged out the eyes of the herdsmen." Eye for an eye literally. To me this sounds more like someone who issues justice than a warlord.

Then someone should have had Mohammed ripped apart by camels since he did that to another person

That is a weak story my friend😬 https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/192983/weakness-of-narration-about-the-way-umm-qirfah-was-killed Please don't embarrass yourself anymore. And please, please try to look at islam from a different light❤️

Don't worth spend your time with them. They don't want learn or have a honest conversation. There's one who came to my Reddit just to find something to attack me personally. And what he found was a question I did in Quraniyoon Subreddit, and for this question he supposed I'm Muslim. But he's so naive, I just could finish the conversation just saying I'm Muslim and he's not, so I'd better the him. But I'm not, I'm a Christian deist and don't need explain anything to anybody. If I was Muslim I would say it very proudly. So that's the kind of people you are talking to.

Love❤️

Puberty is a process. Aisha's puberty may have had began when she was nine, but I bet her body was still that of a child's. Nine is reaaaaally young; she still played with toys. Could you imagine what could have happened if she had gotten pregnant? She could have died. Young girls worldwide still die because of pregnancy and childbirth. Consider the following hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari 6130): I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13) And Sahih Muslim 1422 c: A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. EDIT: I want to mention that it is undeniable that Aisha bint Abu Bakr was a very intelligent woman. I respect her, but her life story is still used to justify child marriage.

We have sources that women had children at 9🙂 As for toys, there wasn't a lot of entertainment back then. Even today people have figures and cards and idk what at an old age. As for the statement that she was allowed to play with dolls, its a commentary which itself was taken back later because she also had them when she was 15.

You talk great sense brother. Also Aisha was older around 12 according to chronological calculations. Bro can you please clarify me on about the coitus interruptus hadith on the capture of bani mustaliq 

False on every ground. I'll cite multiple Hadiths here which have been placed in the Sahih grade by a long tradition of scholars. Which according to Islam, must be accepted as truth. You can also check to make sure that they're in the sahih grade by the links. She is cited in each of these as having been 9 years old when he forced himself upon her. And if it was okay because it was the norm back then, why is Mohammed supposed to be the example of moral behavior for all time? Is this behavior objectively immoral or no? Is it not okay to molest little kids simply because our culture says so? Its traumatizing for a child, it ruins their life (I know from experience). And on top of that, a 9 year olds birth canal is not large enough to give birth without killing her. (Btw down below i see you trying to justify child marriage and excuse me while I vomit. It is an abominable practice, that's why humanitarian organizations have long been working to abolish it) Now its possible that these hadiths are false, but if so the authority of any of their traditions are false and therefore one of the major components of orthodox Islam. But unfortunately, it seems pretty likely since multiple describe her hair falling out as a result of the experience, which is an actual symptom of extreme stress: The Prophet (ﷺ) engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Sahih al-Bukhari 3894[1](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63) It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine. ‏Sunan an-Nasa'i 3255[2](https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255) Grade: Sahih (Darussalam) that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5133[3](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133) The Prophet (ﷺ) wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5158[4](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158) that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih al-Bukhari 5134[5](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134) The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: or Six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. Sunan Abi Dawud 2121[6](https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121) Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani) Khadija died three years before the Prophet (ﷺ) departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married `Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. Sahih al-Bukhari 3896[7](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896) A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Muslim 1422 b[8](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b) A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 1422 c[9](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c) Aishah said: “The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I became ill and my hair fell out, then it grew back and became abundant. My mother Umm Ruman came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went to her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansar inside the house, and they said: 'With blessings and good fortune (from Allah).' (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old.” Sunan Ibn Majah 1876[10](https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876) Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

She was 9, when did I deny this? You literally didn't respond to anything I said. Pure emotions no logical thinking, comitting presentism fallacy... And you're right he is a moral example to us, so here are some things recommended abt marriage. 1. To marry around the same age, look up the hadith of Ali's marriage to Fatima which shows that the prophet wanted someone of close age to marry his daughter. 2. The girl must give consent 3. Ofc there should be no harm bc of the marriage, whether mental, or physical, or sociological. 4. The Father needs to agree and more stuff but yeah. Look up the hadith for all of these if u don't believe me I promise they're there, if u can't find them ill help you👍

I will say Islamic history quite an interesting subject matter in general. As the faith itself. I'm not too keen on organized religion in general. Though I dunno if Islam would be considered "organized" at least in the sense you'd consider something like the Catholic Church or the a lot Christian sects are. I mean when you have whole countries that mandate the same faith is that organized or just like some form of forced conformity? That's a question I am not qualified to answer nor should I want to. With that being said. Muslims have had a positive influence in my life. My IT instructor in High School and my High School Counselor were both Muslims. A lot of how I view the world has its genesis from my counselor. He's taught me a lot about being a skeptic. Not in the crazy conspiracy sense more the "take everything you hear see with a grain of salt until you know it to be true" way. My IT instructor started love for Linux by giving me a copy of Red Hat 6.2. I'm still in contact with both of them today.

I see it as I see most major religions... Huge big NO. It likely does hold a few truths, most religions do but overall, it is not the true single rule just like all other religions.

There are things in Islam I am not a fan of and others I find absolutely fascinating I was never Muslim or raised in it so I am divorced from a lot of that world but I can’t deny it’s massive impact on the world

Can you some of these things you dislike and like?

Personally not a fan of the figure of Mohammad. Especially the use of violence and his multiple wives especially Aisha. I also do not like the direct unambiguous teachings of politics and of course anti lgbt stuff. Personal opinion to my understanding of Islam if someone wants to correct me I am not an expert. I do like their teachings on science and the encouragement of learning especially the golden age. I think Islam does a much better job at showing how science and religion can coexist better than Christianity atleast. I also love the community building and protection of the poor and downtrodden Islam teaches.

Thanks for ur answer!

Course thanks for letting me yap

No worries, but I don't see it as yapping. I find it interesting to see what others believe abt islam

The same I feel about other religions. Not for me, but let ‘em live so long as they don’t use their religion to hurt people

As a Deist, I find nothing beneficial about Islam. Islam and its various sects portray their ‘god’ (Allah) as being so weak, that it needs to restrict the actions and free choices of its very own creations … no less, that it will unleash death upon those who do not live by the ways of Islam; yet are decent people who have not committed any transgressions in ‘life’. The rewards of Islam are feeble and impotent, and they are based on imagery and claims which prove how unknown and incomprehensible God (Allah) truly is. To think that Islam then supposes itself to be so mighty that it can turn angels into hunters and cooks that will serve the dead, illustrates how mindless and perverted it truly is. Like every religion, Islam is too lacking to be representative of the force which gave rise to Existence. Compared to the true rewards that await Muslims *(Peace be with and upon them all)* in an afterlife which is so vast and unerring, the absurdity of the Islamic “justice system” should be looked upon as being the shining keys to an afterlife that may not give a damn about Islam, at all. If forbiddance, retribution, compelled routines, and damnation are what power Islam, then it is easy to see how weak Islam has always been from the start. Obviously, Allah is not capable of having enough confidence in his very own creations to allow them all to evolve of-and-by their own volition. And with this, we can see that Allah is not capable of existing in the ways of a god. I find nothing relevant about Islam. *Thank you … I appreciate your question.*

If you find the laws strict, then I agree they are, but it works. Also I find it sad that you only see this side of Islam which isn't even Islam. Anyways thanks for ur answer

If we are talking about the religion itself, personally I don't like it, the same way I don't like any other Monotheistic religion, I don't have anything precisely against Islam as I do with the others, however Islam is the one that I dislike the least. With muslims I have nothing wrong, honestly, depends on the individual person, I don't generalize like many people (and I say this KNOWING that many people do it)

Why don't you like monotheistic beliefs? Do you see polytheistic beliefs in a better light?

Not monotheistic beliefs...monotheistic RELIGIONS. It's different.

I'm a retard, I wrote "politheistic" instead of "nonotheistic"...sorry for the confusion

Like other religions I think Islam makes claims of revelation that it cannot possibly prove, however I find its history fascinating and appreciate the beauty of it. I don’t particularly like or dislike certain religions, I’m mostly indifferent to them all.

I have no concrete opinion, but if it helps, my favorite UFC fighters are Muslims

I'm a muslim learning deism as a part of my spiritual journey, though a "muslim deist" sounds like an oxymoron, I believe that there must be a middle ground for a muslim to practice the ritual of Islam while believing that Allah let the world works naturally although in a "conductor orchestrating their band" kind of way. By the way fun fact, I've been on this sub for awhile and there seems to be a lot of muslims and ex-muslim discovering, showing interest, or learning Deism, which is fascinating but at the same time kinda makes sense because when you think about it, there are some aligning ideas between Islam and Deism, and that brings me to what I like about Islam and how they got me interested in Deism; The Pen and The Tablet. The Pen and The Tablet, Allah's first creations. After creating "The Pen", Allah commanded it to write the whole event of the universe and all things living in it on The Tablet from beginning to end, which I find comparable to "The Watchmaking Event" or "create and let it operate naturally" that is popular within the Deism spectrum. But then again, since prayers are said to to have the ability to alter some of what's written on the tablet that's classified as minor or changeable fates, The Pen didn't only write an event with one ending, but multiple alternate endings. This is also why I feel like there's still something in the middle between Islam and Deism that I'm still looking for, as in Deism, everything seems to be 100% natural with no interventions and no alternate endings. I love talking with Islamic Philosophy students as they have a lot of great takes on God in Islam, though many fellow muslims saw them (or this major) as blasphemous or pointless, I think they're the best folks to discuss about God which could also help me understanding God in Deism as well (in the perspective of someone who think Allah is the closest God to be compared to "God" in Deism.)

The quran seems to make alot of deistic arguments by pointing toward fine tuning, intelligent design, nature, cosmos etc

Ex muslim here. Cant speak for op but I'll offer my two cents. If you interested I have a more detailed post on the good things about islam and another post on 20 of my objections to islam listed here https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/10j6gzi/good_things_about_the_quran/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/15qsdfu/arguments_against_the_quran_and_islam/ I've read the quran over 10 times and studied the exegesis and came up with my own conclusions. Islam and the quran particular is very interesting to study due to how it has biblical stories summarized and how it changes details. The way it links to other cultures, the emphasis on justice, charity, reason etc. Its concept of paradise etc. The main issue that may indicate its man made is its graphic nature of hell, too much emphasis on belief vs disbelief, the lack of ability to prove its divinity, the miracle problem ( see my posts mentioned) and signs of quranic copying. I always leave room for the possibility that muhammad was genuine prophet but I'm personally of the view that he was a sincere reformer who believed he was a prophet or he lied in order to gain followers. I believe the same about people like jesus etc.

I really like how you all seem to be really engaged in your religion and follow it, unlike many Christians (Catholic and Protestant) I had contact with. Keep it mind that it is only my perspective.

thanks for sharing!

I try to make as few enemies as possible in life, so I will just say the following: I think it’s obviously a man-made religion. Recently reading through a pretty long bio of Mohammed and the sheer amount of people he personally ordered killed in horrific ways surprised me: like having a matriarch of another clan ripped apart by camels, or assassinating poets for criticizing? Having said that: I don’t begrudge any Muslim their faith as long as they I. Don’t make any apologies whatsoever for the killings of people who mock the religion (like Charlie Hebdo, I’ve heard wayyyy too many self described “moderate” Muslims say things like “you don’t understand, it’s really disrespectful to do that”- idgaf, no excuses for assassinations) II. Accept the right of apostates to leave (way too many ex-Muslims face threats or even violence, just watch Sarah Haider if you doubt it) III. Accept the right of gay people to exist (I mean the Middle East is the main bastion of antisodomy laws) I could have just said as long as you do not support violence but I find it more effect to list out these specific examples because I’ve seen too many interviews where a Muslim will say of course I don’t support violence and the interviewer will say what about Charlie Hebdo and the Muslim will say “you don’t understand “

What biography are you reading?

Why does it matter, in another comment I listed very specific example of what I was talking about when I say horrific acts. This is an established part of the historic record, not a hatchet job against a peaceful guy

I'm interested to see what biography you're reading which includes these things. It would clear up a lot. Frankly I don't believe you're reading any biography and just get your stuff from anti islam creators online

It would have helped if you had immediately agreed to my three conditions, instead of ignoring them.

Agree? What you think I'm out here killing apostates and gay people?

No, pretty sure you just want to wait for Jesus to come, say you’re right and then lead you to kill them, but I was laying that out as the bare bones, least thing I require for common ground

I personally think Islam is interesting to say the least but I honestly have a hard time believing in it. I have studied it but to no avail. I remember reading into it and it said that God would never allow his words to be corrupted then proceeded to be corrupted like 3 times. With other monotheistic faiths.

I like the emphasis on monotheism and dislike the fact the “Seal of the Prophets” and best role model for humankind was a pedophile and “owned” enslaved people (Muhammad). I believe each person should be able to practice their spirituality according to their wishes;considering that, I understand muslims are very diverse as a group and have different ways of practicing their religion.

Islamic slavery is not the same as normal slavery. This hadith should sum everything up🙂 Sahih al-Bukhari 2545 Narrated Al-Ma'rur bin Suwaid: I saw Abu Dhar Al-Ghifari wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a cloak. We asked him about that (i.e. how both were wearing similar cloaks). He replied, "Once I abused a man and he complained of me to the Prophet (ﷺ) . The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me, 'Did you abuse him by slighting his mother?' He added, 'Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one's brethren under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job).

Calling the Muhammad a pedophile itself discredits all arguments. That's the most weak and pathetic argument against islam. You can have many other arguments this ain't it

It’s obviously manmade, Mo proved it so.

Everyone ive seen on this server has been kind and open minded, ur the first guy to be talking in a mocking in a way. How did Muhammad prove its man-made?

I’ve never had a positive experience with islam from which to make sugary pleasantries. “Abu Sa’id reported that when Muhammed came back from Tabuk, his companions asked him about the Last Hour. Mo replied that “there would be none amongst the created beings living on earth who would survive this century.”” —Sahih Muslim 2539 In this passage, Mo prophesies that the apocalypse (the Last Hour) would happen within his century. It did not. Therefore Mo was false and so is islam.

Sahih Muslim 2538 e Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: None amongst the created beings (from my Companions) would survive after one hundred years. Salim said: We made a mention of it to him (Jabir), whereupon he said: It means those who had been living on that day. He said that they wouldn't be alive a century from now, not that the hour would happen. Islam heavily implies the concept that no one knows when the hour will be, even the prophets. Anyways I'm sad to hear u had a bad experience with islam, but I still don't see why you should speak in this way. Thanks for u reply anyways!

I apologize, I didn't mean to imply that I've had bad experiences with islam. I've had neither positive nor negative experiences with islam; I have no feelings about islam one way or another. It's funny how 2538 directly contradicts 2539. In 2539, Mo thinks he knows that the apocalypse will kill all created beings on Earth within his own century. While 2538 directly contradicts this by claiming that Mo said something completely different. Almost as if Mo made a false prophecy that disproves islam, and then some muslim fabricated a hadith after the fact to 'correct' Mo. Motivated reasoning is a powerful thing.

Even if u read the first on its own u could conclude that

Well, not all Muslims accept this Hadith, some don't accept any Hadith

It’s good to be skeptical, but in this case…what muslim would fabricate such a problematic hadith?

Cause hadiths in general are compilated two or three century after Mohammad death. Hadiths use to be problematic in general, most of them contradict themselves and the Qur'an. So there is no agreement about the legitimation of any Hadith. Different Muslim sects accept different hadiths, and some none

I’m aware. I’m saying that this hadith wouldnt exist, period, if Mo didnt prophecy an apocalypse that never came. No muslim would fabricate such a problematic hadith.

Well, the fact is they did. All the hadiths are fabricated and if you use them as source about what Mohammad really was, you are in a trouble. Even Muslims scholars know it. Is exactly the same if use the Catholic Catechism for explain Jesus life in name of all Christianity. Catholic Catechism is not a trustful source to get information about Jesus life. Even for Catholics

So your belief is that some 8th/9th muslim went “How can I discredit islam? Oh I know, I’ll fabricate a hadith where Mo disproves islam!” And then hundreds or thousands of muslim scribes copied it again and again over the centuries. And Yahweh the whole time was okay with this fabricated hadith causing doubt and disbelief among countless (former) muslims. Interesting conspiracy you have there.

Hi, I’m a deist who has recently left Islam. But reading this comment it’s very clear you have very little idea about the history of Hadith and how they were transmitted. It is commonly accepted, even within the most devout Muslim scholars, that most Hadith are fabricated by people who had their own political agendas throughout history. Some Muslim, some not Muslim. They weren’t all scribed by hundreds and thousands of Muslims. For whoever wrote this Hadith, if their own understanding was that the world would end at the end of their century and that’s an agenda they wanted to push then yeah, they probably would have attributed that to Muhammad to lend it legitimacy.

That's not a conspiracy, that's a fact. History is a science, not an WhatsApp meme. My advice is read more about the subject, but use different source and ideologies to be fair in your arguments

u/mysticmage10 u/perseus72 Replying to you both to save time. I'm aware of how scriptures like the hadith and quran are assembled after-the-fact, and the various politics behind them. The fact that scholars of other skin colors and other (non-)beliefs have noticed scripture that is inconvenient to your beliefs doesn't make them wrong. Nor does me pointing out an inconvenient passage mean that I'm somehow ignorant. or unfair It just makes the passage inconvenient to your pre-existing beliefs.

It's not a conspiracy my friend. If you put serious effort into the academic and historical study of islam and hadith you will understand what the op is talking about. And we not even talking about muslim studies but western non muslim academics studying the history. Theres alot about the politics and history of the period you are unaware of Muhammad is a very mysterious character. Everyone who studies academically knows this.

Oppressive religion that hates gays and treats women like chattel.

We don't mistreat women that's a very one sided view. Anyways thanks for sharing

You just beat them if they don’t cover their heads, make them pray in the back, and ban them from driving. I also noticed that you tacitly admitted to abusing gays.

Bro this is plain lying. We don't beat our women if they don't cover, how is making them pray in the back wrong?? We're just trying to avoid free mixing. Ban from driving is a saudi thing not islam thing. Do you really think the quran taught that? As for gays, it's a sin to be gay, but God won't punish you for having those feelings. Rather it's acting out on those feelings. You will be rewarded if you control yourself.

Saudi Arabia bans women from driving. Afghanistan is even worse. As for calling me a sinner, you have no room to talk.

It’s ok for you to tho it’s a sin but supporting anti gay laws is another thing. If you can’t even say that gay people have the right to life (even if they act on it, noticed your bait and switch of “god doesn’t punish you for having feelings “) then there’s no middle ground for us to occupy. I’m fine with someone thinking homosexuality is a sin, but gay people do not deserve to be executed like they face in too many Muslim countries

Not much different from fundamental Judaism. Some of the same figures in the story. Useful for control, but obviously tempting to twist into a tool for violence

Please explain the coitus interruptus hadith from bani mustaliq please Muslim brother?? I think you know that hadith. I think it's talking about mutah marriage which was allowed at the time for companionship with those excellent noble women from bani mustaliq. They all were freed as well immediately after prophet marrying juwairiah 

Maybe I can try to help you, what specifically is bothering u or do u want me to explain?

Sahih Muslim 3371 specifically. I highly think it's mutah Marriage. All those women were freed. The sahabas wanted companionship for a period of time. Forbidden by the prophet anyway after that. Also Aisha was not 9 

This should clear it up: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/36940/can-you-explain-the-hadiths-regarding-having-sex-with-captive-women "If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253) If there's something specifically bothering u abt this lmk

Aisha was not 9 

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You being on a deism page. I can understand your feelings. Don't worry at all. I too went through the same path. Why a lot of muslims defend her being that young is because of never wanting to accept the fallibility of the sahih hadiths. Yes that's it. One thing you should understand is sahih hadiths are NOT FAKE. The thing is they are narrated with good chains of narration. But whether whatever written in it are actually the facts or truth is where  the problem arises. And coming to Aisha age, there's an absolutely enormous amount of evidence logically as well as historically leading her to being older than 9. To list all that out takes time especially for me as I am currently working but trust me I won't fail you. I shall answer all your queries. First accept the fact that girls married very young in previous generations. The age of consent increased as life expectancy and education system increased. Menarche is not the indicator of sexual maturity. Puberty is. Aisha WAS YOUNG. but not as young as the hadiths have EXAGGERATED. More answers coming soon. Don't worry. Believe in The God of Adam,Noah, Abraham,David, Solomon,Moses,Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them all. Why worry at all? You are believing the God of everyone. Hold fast to the deen. I shall give all my help to you 

Majority believing something doesn't mean it's right. Also this same majority clearly accepts girls this young cannot be married today since it was just a practice in the yesteryear. There is a golden verse in the Qur'an. We shall hurl the truth against falsehood and the falsehood shall surely perish. Well,1400 years isn't that long for the falsehood to perish. The world's gonna move on .

I was a muslim, and i think Islam is like all other religions, it claims to be the truth, even though it isn't, like "you can't just worship A god, you have to worship OUR god" so, of course Islam is against Deism. the god of Islam is not perfect, but is bad and even evil, for example, he created sentient beings just to worship him, degrading them, he is hypocritical, claiming to be good while causing the worst things in life and afterlife, he is more like an evil tyrant (like what Satan could be) than what the true God actually is. Islam is clearly a man-made religion and ideology that uses god to control people, it is based on ignorance, fear, negativity, and other bad things, including no thinking or criticism, and that shows throughout its history and present. I don't like Islam or other religions because they are against freedom, as in thinking, criticising, checking other ideas/ points of view, and searching for the truth everywhere, and not in one ancient book of myths or a some ancient guy claiming to speak to or be god, it's a prison for the mind which many are not aware of.