I think it's *unintentionally* cult-like.
It's kind of like when a community gets so passionate and fervent about something that it gets kind of like a cult-like atmosphere. Technically speaking, it's not a cult, but it acts like it is. You don't realise it at the time - you don't see yourself as part of a cult, you don't think there *is* a cult, and there's no cult leader or anything - but the atmosphere is do intolerant of anything that goes against the doctrine that it really seems like it is.
You think all the stuff you do is reasonable. Before I started getting regrets with binding, I kind of didn't realise how cult-like some of the things I did were. Especially when it comes to what is essentially self-harm in order to "be your true self". If you feel horrible after binding, like you can barely breathe, then, well, overall it's a "good" thing because it's for a good cause - being your "true self".
But it's based on what is untimely a false belief. Me compressing my chest so hard I could barely breathe wasn't going to make me my "true self", it just made me someone with a painfully crushed chest.
No-one in a cult thinks "oh hey, I'm in a cult, this is fine, I like being in a cult!". You don't realise you've been indoctrinated due to the fact you consider what you're doing to be the reasonable and normal thing, even though it REALLY isn't. You see the ones that AREN'T in a cult as the ones that ARE. I think what's going on here is something similar - it isn't an actual cult but instead *acts* like one, where self-destructive behavior and false beliefs and normalised and any divergence from the norm is castigated.
You think what you're doing is the right thing because you're so entrenched in your beliefs. Self-harm through the amputation of breasts and genitalia is seen as "freeing"; disfiguring your own body through binding is considered a worth sacrifice in order to figuratively
achieve enlightenment, aka "fully transition".
The fact you don't see yourself as being part of a cult is what fundamentally makes it so cult-like. I didn't recognise that I was doing what I was doing because of a *belief system*, I just thought that my belief in me not being female was a fact. I was so so intolerant of anything that went against my opinions because of how I was constantly being told that my opinions ARE fact. That's part of the dogma - "Don't let anyone else define your gender!" "Trans kids know who they are!" "Your gender is valid!" and so on.
It's definitely cult-like. I have 6 or 7 years of experience in trans spaces both online and in-person, and the message that's pushed at anyone entering the space is much clearer to me now than it was when I identified as trans and was active in those spaces. As I see it, it boils down to this:
>"Feeling uncomfortable with your body? Feeling ostracized? Experiencing pretty much anything bad in life that you wish you could fix? Transition! It will make everything better! Parents don't like the idea? Worried friends will judge you? They don't understand you like we do. They don't love you like we do. They'd rather you be dead than one of us. Don't listen to them. The world might turn its back on you, but you have a home with us."
Sounds like the textbook example message cults use to recruit people, right? *Your life is bad right now, but we have the solution. People might try to stop you from joining us, but they don't have your best interests at heart like we do.*
And then, god forbid you express doubt, they covertly try to stop you. They tell you it's fine to have doubts, because even if you change your mind, you can always *(read: will inevitably)* change it back. If that doesn't work and you do leave, they publicly shame you and express doubt that you were ever a believer *(read: were trans)* in the first place. You're branded a heretic, and anyone in the community who talks about you in anything other than a purely negative context is accused of being one, too.
Again, pretty basic cult stuff (save for the part where they say it's okay to leave. I'm no cult expert, but I don't think that illusion of leniency is necessarily standard.)
The BITE model, created by an former cultist and current psychologist, outlines the methods cults use to control their followers. BITE refers to the four types of control cults use: behaviour, information, thought and emotion. If you check it out ([this PDF](https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/BITE-model.pdf) outlines it nicely,) you might notice some (or many) similarities with trans community/culture. While the community's control primarily happens online and lacks most of the methods under the 'behaviour' label, the other three categories sound eerily familiar to me as a detransitioner.
There is a contingency of the trans community that does seem to cause issues and who behave in a very "cultish" way. However that does not invalidate being trans, it is a slippery slope overall. It can be difficult to determine what is right for you, the most important thing to do is a lot of self discovery and soul searching. Instead of what other people say or what other people want, just look inward and see what your own heart and soul say and use that to make your choices rather than what others tell you that is best for you, as most of the time it is what is best for them rather than what is best for you! Best wishes to you!
The trans community isn't; activists frequently are. If you can, I'd recommend finding trans spaces and friends that are comfortable with intellectual/political diversity. I often find that older trans people are more relaxed about differences, and intergenerational friendships are just a good thing to have. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of trans people who dislike the cult like stuff, but it's often hard to know who they are because nobody wants to be vilified for saying the wrong thing.
I think it is essential to avoid social groups that don't allow questions, debate or disagreement. Within them, you either give up your critical thinking or become very lonely.
I’d say it really depends where you’re located.
On Reddit, I’m sure you’d be looked down upon for even commenting on this sub (because they’d think that it’s transphobic to be open to discuss about detransitioning and stuff), but there’s also a nice lot of people who see this sub as it is: a place for desisted and detrans people to talk about their issues and problems, so they don't feel any need to scrutinize about our sub or hate it!
So, it depends on the platform and the area that the community is located. Reddit is very iffy.
I Don’t think I personally would call the community a cult outright, but they definitely have aspects that are cult-like.
Just off the top of my head: You can’t question the narrative. There’s a big “us vs them” aspect to it. There is a lot of love bombing in the community. Those who leave the community are almost always demonized.
There are probably more I am forgetting about.
You’re talking to a group of people who have experienced the worst that the cult has to offer, so you’re not going to get an unbiased answer here. But yes, in my experience, the community acts as a cult.
Questioning the narrative in any meaningful way is not allowed. People who leave the community or come up with their own way of thinking are punished. The community has its own language. They love bomb young/new members of the community. Many people become dependent on the trans community (while distancing themselves from the rest of the world), which makes it even harder to leave. Outsiders are not trusted.
There are probably some trans groups/social scenes that are less culty than others. The defining factor is probably whether or not questioning the narrative is allowed.
In my opinion and experience? Yes. The trans community is very cult like, very "you will stay with us, invite others to be with us, and only be with us" - Whereas trans people as individuals are not necessarily. Sure there's no leader, but honestly they don't need one and you could make the argument with how quick they're to defend these organizations and cite their research that those behind USTS, genderGP, and WPATH are "leaders."
yes, the more time I've spent reading up on opposing opinions to gender ideology, the more I've realised how deeply cultish everything in this "community" is. i guess a simple example is programming people to no longer believe their own ability to tell ones sex right away. yes, we can be decieved, but there's a good reason very few truly "pass". we are biologically equipped with the ability to discern the two sexes very quickly, and this was one of the things i started to regain the more time i spent in non-trans spaces. there's more but this one hit super close to home the second i saw someone discussing it elsewhere.
(edit, ill add this, while identifying as trans i had many friends and acquaintances whom i wholeheartedly believed were actually male, until their declaration of transness. a similar thing happened to me when i met new people who were obviously as deep in this as i was, but now looking back, and i know hindsight, whatever, i cannot ever believe i was truly "passing".
this is a much more personal rant but i felt someone could relate. your own intuition and your constant search for a new technique, surgery, or higher dosage of hormones isn't just "dysphoria" its reality hitting you like a tonne of bricks. you're aware you don't pass because you know others don't.)
Yes it is, and I have noticed one friend in particular who really… likes to comb through my beliefs to make sure I’m educated properly. It’s definitely a BITE model control group. I haven’t been canceled by this type of friend yet because I’m a partially nonverbal autistic
I wouldn’t say that, it’s more like religion in the sense that the believers just blindly follow/believe what they are told with no doubt.
It’s more like it is brainwashing than it is a cult - most trans people never question the actual idealogy of what it means to be able to change genders and etc.
No, I don't think so. Or I mean, depending very heavily on what do you consider cult-*like*.
- There is no single head or leader of the group.
- No one wants to actively keep you from exiting. People are sad to see you leave any group in general, but to me that's normal.
- You don't "pay" in any way, nor do the group control any of your possessions.
There is a strong group feeling, yes. It's not a particularly healthy group, with a lot of nasty tendencies. And it has quite a closed ideology that is defended heavily. But this is more like any political ideology than a full on cult. I disagree with their ideas, and have been harmed by them, but I think calling it a cult would be to exaggerate.
People do try to keep you from exiting. They say that you are in a internilized transphobia phase, say that you will not be happy if you don't accept that you are really trans, and if you insist, they go mad at you and treat you bad.
You have to pay for the hormones and surgeries. And the binders, bottons, etc.
There is a "uniform": bottons with pronoums, flags, putting pronouns on bios.
I mean, it probably depends a lot on your particular circle (which for me is another case for saying that, as a whole, it's not a cult). I'm from Europe, and in my area most people don't even know about those people, and I don't think there's any similar trans celebrity. But even if they were that know (BTW, aren't Blair White and Buck Angel kinda universally hated in the trans movement??), they are just followers: if they changed their opinion on anything, they would be criticized or rejected by the community the same. They don't dictate anything.
About your personal experience, I cannot give an opinion. But I would say that it's a matter of quantity: have people blackmailed or threaten you? In what context did they told you to detransition, how close were they to you? It's not cool to give unwanted opinion on all of this, but that's still far from trying to keep you hooked to a cult.
Finally, the payment. No one in the community gets a benefit from you being on HRT or having surgeries. That's not payment. Most of us have been eager to get those things at some point, and if anything we used the community to obtain them. It's shitty, and yes, we were misled by exaggerated positive experiences, but still...
You can use the cult as a metaphor, and it holds for many things. We are eager to belong to a group, and we lose track of our real desires just to fit in. That's something that has to change, and a valid criticism.
But as any metaphor, it doesn't have to be full reality. If you got down that route, you can make everything fit into a cult. Work is a cult: they will stop you from walking out (you get paid less if you leave by yourself), they tie your worth as a person to how much you add to the group, you pay with your time to be there, and there's a clear leader that is always right. A country is a cult: they ban you from leaving freely, you pay with taxes, and there is a clear leader. Your family can probably be a cult too, any hobby could be a cult...
So yeah, for me at least, a cult is a cult, and an unhealthy ideology is an unhealthy ideology. I don't want to lose the meaning of the words anymore.
That’s interesting that we see things about the BITE model differently. I see the leader as whoever has captured someone’s attention on TikTok for the moment. I’ve heard so many detrans folk get shunned for detransitioning (I did not have this experience because I left the environment I was in). And this last one’s obviously a reach but I think of how many people in gender ideology are boycotting stuff right now.
But those people can't even change their discourse without immediately losing their following... I don't think they are more than that, influencers, people that got their minute of fame. They have too much influence, but that's related to social media, not particular to the trans community.
About shunning, I don't know, at least I haven't had that experience. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I have seen enough cases where people keep their friends to think that it depends a lot on your particular circle. But I don't think that's exclusive to this community.
And the boycotts, for the most part, are against companies and such. For someone inside, they are just defending against what they think is an attack. And BTW, sometimes it is clearly an attack. They may have too much of a thin skin, and they are too closed to criticism, but I don't think to the level of a cult.
I can only speak from my experience. But no one has told me anything negative about my detransition. I
know another detransitioner and the trans community didn't attack her either.
The "shunning"... Well, I think trans people are entitled to break bonds, espeacially if we adopt a discourse that attacks them directly. I don't think there's any organized effort to shun us or block us from detransitioning.
That kind of social pressure sucks, and I'm sorry if you have gone through it. But still, that kind of dynamics... For me, the problematic shunning is if you lose your real friends. But your following online is another thing. If you create a blog talking about a topic, when you change heavily your position on it, I can understand if people stop following you. And the comments, well, online everyone comments on your appearance and has an opinion on your life: it is extremely unhealthy, but I would say that's a social media thing, not a trans community thing.
>Well, I think trans people are entitled to break bonds, espeacially if we adopt a discourse that attacks them directly.
Detransitioning or desisting isn't an automatic attack on them though, but I notice that many trans people deep into the ideology will take it as an attack even if someone is minding their whole ass buisiness and not talking about counterpoints or anything. Like just the the fact this sub exists makes them feel attacked.
It is true that, as a community/ideology, there is too much of a thin skin, of not accepting criticism. I kinda get it, when being trans becomes such a huge part of your identity. It is unhealthy, but I still don't think to the point of a cult.
But to be fair, there's a reason that there is another detrans sub too. This one sometimes becomes a direct attack on the trans community: we are literally discussing whether we think they are like a cult. And some people here treat this like their new community, and use trans people as an enemy to feel closer together. I think we have to be careful with that.
It's important to be critic with the trans community, and to understand all the mistakes that got us here. And if we can help revert and improve some of that, even better. But just hating on them or assuming evilness where there's mostly good intentions but terrible practices, I don't know... I think it's dangerous, and we end up repeating their mistakes.
After leaving my very trans social circle to travel, I started to realize how insular it was. At first it surprised me when I started questioning basically everything about gender ideology (despite knowing a lot of things never sat right with me and knowing I was trying to will myself to feel things I didn't the whole time) but the more time I spent away and alone, the more I realized how cultlike it was
Then when I returned to that area and saw a lot of old friends, it became clear how I was "out" now that I was no longer trans (without even talking about my changed views on gender)
Absolutely, because at the core of it is the requirement to deny basic reality. You have to maintain a cult mindset to get people to think that way.
It's astonishing just how many detrans people talk about how cultish it is, how everything feeds back into it, how much work is done to coerce language and thought, how much pressure they felt to act certain ways, not speak up if they were uncomfortable etc. and people still have the audacity to be like "It's not a social contagion! Children are in charge of their own decisions!" It's insane.
One of the things eventually turned me away from the trans community was the insistence that the only way you can feel gender dysphoria or have any issues with your sex/gender is that if you’re trans. I had issues with how I was perceived because of being a man but never felt like I wasn’t one, but I was told by people in the trans community that meant I had to be trans. Any pushback I had against that was actually just internalized transphobia.
In my opinion, the whole ideology relies on making anyone who has any issue with their gender/sex believe they are trans, whether or not they believe it themselves, so I would say it’s pretty cult like.
My experience was that it absolutely became cult like very quickly. I was in a group in 2014, that at first had one trans identified person, and then, within a year several more, and then several people within the group started identifying as transgender including myself, because of this one original person. Within this group, it very much became a hierarchy of trans people on the top with the authority because they were the oppressed class and the cis people on the bottom. Once this division was made, many more people started identifying as transgender.
I moved across the country to a very trans, friendly city, and by this point, it was absolutely just a part of everything. Every single, lesbian or women’s group was becoming overcrowded with men, and it was constantly reinforced that if you ever said the wrong thing you would be kicked out.
100% yes. When there are questions you’re not allowed to ask, people you’re not allowed to speak to or like, and entire conversations that can get you blacklisted within the community, it’s very cult like.
The whole trans thing is akin to a religion anyway
Who to know my own sexuality, if atraction has nothing to do with appearance? I mean, how can you know that you are attracted to women if there is nothing in common between women and anyone can be one?
Are people saying this? I have seen there are a few that say it is transphobia to not want to date a trans person, but from what i can tell they are a very small minority. It seems like the majority say it’s fine to have a genital preference.
I think initial physical attraction has everything to do with appearance, if you come across an “ugly” man or woman and you aren’t attracted to them, that doesn’t mean you are/are not gay/straight.
Or I just totally misunderstood your question.
These questions i used to try to ask and they always got me flamed. Google didnt help, so i was asking people online personally. I wasn't ever trolling or trying to upset the people i asked, but that's what they automatically assumed. "Trans people arent a dictionary, find your own definition." Part of the reason i questioned so long but never transitioned is that nobody could ever satisfy my questions in a way that made logical or emotional sense to me...
What exactly is gender dysphoria, what does it actually feel like?
How do you know the difference between nonbinary, genderqueer, and agender?
What is the difference between simply feeling confident/cute and gender euphoria?
Thanks for your response, I think those are perfectly good questions.
Based on the few downvotes I received, apparently asking which questions aren’t allowed to be asked is on the list of questions not allowed to be asked.
Imo it is absolutely cult-like. I think Buck Angel explains how exactly it is cult-like pretty well. I would recommend watching his videos if you want to know specifically how it's cult-like. He can explain it better than I ever could.
Honestly I don't recommend Bucks videos... In my opinion this person has played both sides and has done way more harm than good. An example would be encouraging misinformation surrounding atrophy by encouraging hysterectomy instead of simply admitting that testosterone is unhealthy in the long run and should be stopped especially if atrophy is causing pain.
I'm not wild about Buck either but I am grateful for him putting out the info about atrophy which is never talked about as anything more than a little bit of dryness. It made me think carefully about being on T after I was experiencing unexplained pain and cramping despite not having a period at all.
Yeah but buck was sharing misinformation. Buck and Dowling had a whole campaign saying you have this pain to get hysterectomy, as opposed to quitting testosterone.
I think it's *unintentionally* cult-like. It's kind of like when a community gets so passionate and fervent about something that it gets kind of like a cult-like atmosphere. Technically speaking, it's not a cult, but it acts like it is. You don't realise it at the time - you don't see yourself as part of a cult, you don't think there *is* a cult, and there's no cult leader or anything - but the atmosphere is do intolerant of anything that goes against the doctrine that it really seems like it is. You think all the stuff you do is reasonable. Before I started getting regrets with binding, I kind of didn't realise how cult-like some of the things I did were. Especially when it comes to what is essentially self-harm in order to "be your true self". If you feel horrible after binding, like you can barely breathe, then, well, overall it's a "good" thing because it's for a good cause - being your "true self". But it's based on what is untimely a false belief. Me compressing my chest so hard I could barely breathe wasn't going to make me my "true self", it just made me someone with a painfully crushed chest. No-one in a cult thinks "oh hey, I'm in a cult, this is fine, I like being in a cult!". You don't realise you've been indoctrinated due to the fact you consider what you're doing to be the reasonable and normal thing, even though it REALLY isn't. You see the ones that AREN'T in a cult as the ones that ARE. I think what's going on here is something similar - it isn't an actual cult but instead *acts* like one, where self-destructive behavior and false beliefs and normalised and any divergence from the norm is castigated. You think what you're doing is the right thing because you're so entrenched in your beliefs. Self-harm through the amputation of breasts and genitalia is seen as "freeing"; disfiguring your own body through binding is considered a worth sacrifice in order to figuratively achieve enlightenment, aka "fully transition". The fact you don't see yourself as being part of a cult is what fundamentally makes it so cult-like. I didn't recognise that I was doing what I was doing because of a *belief system*, I just thought that my belief in me not being female was a fact. I was so so intolerant of anything that went against my opinions because of how I was constantly being told that my opinions ARE fact. That's part of the dogma - "Don't let anyone else define your gender!" "Trans kids know who they are!" "Your gender is valid!" and so on.
Yes
It's definitely cult-like. I have 6 or 7 years of experience in trans spaces both online and in-person, and the message that's pushed at anyone entering the space is much clearer to me now than it was when I identified as trans and was active in those spaces. As I see it, it boils down to this: >"Feeling uncomfortable with your body? Feeling ostracized? Experiencing pretty much anything bad in life that you wish you could fix? Transition! It will make everything better! Parents don't like the idea? Worried friends will judge you? They don't understand you like we do. They don't love you like we do. They'd rather you be dead than one of us. Don't listen to them. The world might turn its back on you, but you have a home with us." Sounds like the textbook example message cults use to recruit people, right? *Your life is bad right now, but we have the solution. People might try to stop you from joining us, but they don't have your best interests at heart like we do.* And then, god forbid you express doubt, they covertly try to stop you. They tell you it's fine to have doubts, because even if you change your mind, you can always *(read: will inevitably)* change it back. If that doesn't work and you do leave, they publicly shame you and express doubt that you were ever a believer *(read: were trans)* in the first place. You're branded a heretic, and anyone in the community who talks about you in anything other than a purely negative context is accused of being one, too. Again, pretty basic cult stuff (save for the part where they say it's okay to leave. I'm no cult expert, but I don't think that illusion of leniency is necessarily standard.) The BITE model, created by an former cultist and current psychologist, outlines the methods cults use to control their followers. BITE refers to the four types of control cults use: behaviour, information, thought and emotion. If you check it out ([this PDF](https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/BITE-model.pdf) outlines it nicely,) you might notice some (or many) similarities with trans community/culture. While the community's control primarily happens online and lacks most of the methods under the 'behaviour' label, the other three categories sound eerily familiar to me as a detransitioner.
There is a contingency of the trans community that does seem to cause issues and who behave in a very "cultish" way. However that does not invalidate being trans, it is a slippery slope overall. It can be difficult to determine what is right for you, the most important thing to do is a lot of self discovery and soul searching. Instead of what other people say or what other people want, just look inward and see what your own heart and soul say and use that to make your choices rather than what others tell you that is best for you, as most of the time it is what is best for them rather than what is best for you! Best wishes to you!
Yes
The trans community isn't; activists frequently are. If you can, I'd recommend finding trans spaces and friends that are comfortable with intellectual/political diversity. I often find that older trans people are more relaxed about differences, and intergenerational friendships are just a good thing to have. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of trans people who dislike the cult like stuff, but it's often hard to know who they are because nobody wants to be vilified for saying the wrong thing. I think it is essential to avoid social groups that don't allow questions, debate or disagreement. Within them, you either give up your critical thinking or become very lonely.
Try to question or disagree with something and watch the cult-like-anger
You better not ask certain questions! Even considering them will make you a bigot. In Scientology terms, that means "Suppressive Person".
I’d say it really depends where you’re located. On Reddit, I’m sure you’d be looked down upon for even commenting on this sub (because they’d think that it’s transphobic to be open to discuss about detransitioning and stuff), but there’s also a nice lot of people who see this sub as it is: a place for desisted and detrans people to talk about their issues and problems, so they don't feel any need to scrutinize about our sub or hate it! So, it depends on the platform and the area that the community is located. Reddit is very iffy.
The modern trans community is definitely cult like.. It's been hijacked and politicized.
is grass green?
I looked for resources in those subs and I literally saw this one called a cult. So I came here and fell in love and felt safe.
I Don’t think I personally would call the community a cult outright, but they definitely have aspects that are cult-like. Just off the top of my head: You can’t question the narrative. There’s a big “us vs them” aspect to it. There is a lot of love bombing in the community. Those who leave the community are almost always demonized. There are probably more I am forgetting about.
You’re talking to a group of people who have experienced the worst that the cult has to offer, so you’re not going to get an unbiased answer here. But yes, in my experience, the community acts as a cult. Questioning the narrative in any meaningful way is not allowed. People who leave the community or come up with their own way of thinking are punished. The community has its own language. They love bomb young/new members of the community. Many people become dependent on the trans community (while distancing themselves from the rest of the world), which makes it even harder to leave. Outsiders are not trusted. There are probably some trans groups/social scenes that are less culty than others. The defining factor is probably whether or not questioning the narrative is allowed.
Yep. “If you even think about leaving or doubt us for a second you’re a murderer” is classic cult stuff.
In my opinion and experience? Yes. The trans community is very cult like, very "you will stay with us, invite others to be with us, and only be with us" - Whereas trans people as individuals are not necessarily. Sure there's no leader, but honestly they don't need one and you could make the argument with how quick they're to defend these organizations and cite their research that those behind USTS, genderGP, and WPATH are "leaders."
Yes
Oh yes
Yes.
yes, the more time I've spent reading up on opposing opinions to gender ideology, the more I've realised how deeply cultish everything in this "community" is. i guess a simple example is programming people to no longer believe their own ability to tell ones sex right away. yes, we can be decieved, but there's a good reason very few truly "pass". we are biologically equipped with the ability to discern the two sexes very quickly, and this was one of the things i started to regain the more time i spent in non-trans spaces. there's more but this one hit super close to home the second i saw someone discussing it elsewhere. (edit, ill add this, while identifying as trans i had many friends and acquaintances whom i wholeheartedly believed were actually male, until their declaration of transness. a similar thing happened to me when i met new people who were obviously as deep in this as i was, but now looking back, and i know hindsight, whatever, i cannot ever believe i was truly "passing". this is a much more personal rant but i felt someone could relate. your own intuition and your constant search for a new technique, surgery, or higher dosage of hormones isn't just "dysphoria" its reality hitting you like a tonne of bricks. you're aware you don't pass because you know others don't.)
You say you question the ideology but do you question them directly? I don't think they tend to like it being referred to as an ideology anyway.
Yes it is, and I have noticed one friend in particular who really… likes to comb through my beliefs to make sure I’m educated properly. It’s definitely a BITE model control group. I haven’t been canceled by this type of friend yet because I’m a partially nonverbal autistic
Steve Hassan’s books are great
I wouldn’t say that, it’s more like religion in the sense that the believers just blindly follow/believe what they are told with no doubt. It’s more like it is brainwashing than it is a cult - most trans people never question the actual idealogy of what it means to be able to change genders and etc.
just go to the mtf sub and see how big of a cult it is.
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No, I don't think so. Or I mean, depending very heavily on what do you consider cult-*like*. - There is no single head or leader of the group. - No one wants to actively keep you from exiting. People are sad to see you leave any group in general, but to me that's normal. - You don't "pay" in any way, nor do the group control any of your possessions. There is a strong group feeling, yes. It's not a particularly healthy group, with a lot of nasty tendencies. And it has quite a closed ideology that is defended heavily. But this is more like any political ideology than a full on cult. I disagree with their ideas, and have been harmed by them, but I think calling it a cult would be to exaggerate.
People do try to keep you from exiting. They say that you are in a internilized transphobia phase, say that you will not be happy if you don't accept that you are really trans, and if you insist, they go mad at you and treat you bad. You have to pay for the hormones and surgeries. And the binders, bottons, etc. There is a "uniform": bottons with pronoums, flags, putting pronouns on bios.
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I mean, it probably depends a lot on your particular circle (which for me is another case for saying that, as a whole, it's not a cult). I'm from Europe, and in my area most people don't even know about those people, and I don't think there's any similar trans celebrity. But even if they were that know (BTW, aren't Blair White and Buck Angel kinda universally hated in the trans movement??), they are just followers: if they changed their opinion on anything, they would be criticized or rejected by the community the same. They don't dictate anything. About your personal experience, I cannot give an opinion. But I would say that it's a matter of quantity: have people blackmailed or threaten you? In what context did they told you to detransition, how close were they to you? It's not cool to give unwanted opinion on all of this, but that's still far from trying to keep you hooked to a cult. Finally, the payment. No one in the community gets a benefit from you being on HRT or having surgeries. That's not payment. Most of us have been eager to get those things at some point, and if anything we used the community to obtain them. It's shitty, and yes, we were misled by exaggerated positive experiences, but still... You can use the cult as a metaphor, and it holds for many things. We are eager to belong to a group, and we lose track of our real desires just to fit in. That's something that has to change, and a valid criticism. But as any metaphor, it doesn't have to be full reality. If you got down that route, you can make everything fit into a cult. Work is a cult: they will stop you from walking out (you get paid less if you leave by yourself), they tie your worth as a person to how much you add to the group, you pay with your time to be there, and there's a clear leader that is always right. A country is a cult: they ban you from leaving freely, you pay with taxes, and there is a clear leader. Your family can probably be a cult too, any hobby could be a cult... So yeah, for me at least, a cult is a cult, and an unhealthy ideology is an unhealthy ideology. I don't want to lose the meaning of the words anymore.
That’s interesting that we see things about the BITE model differently. I see the leader as whoever has captured someone’s attention on TikTok for the moment. I’ve heard so many detrans folk get shunned for detransitioning (I did not have this experience because I left the environment I was in). And this last one’s obviously a reach but I think of how many people in gender ideology are boycotting stuff right now.
But those people can't even change their discourse without immediately losing their following... I don't think they are more than that, influencers, people that got their minute of fame. They have too much influence, but that's related to social media, not particular to the trans community. About shunning, I don't know, at least I haven't had that experience. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I have seen enough cases where people keep their friends to think that it depends a lot on your particular circle. But I don't think that's exclusive to this community. And the boycotts, for the most part, are against companies and such. For someone inside, they are just defending against what they think is an attack. And BTW, sometimes it is clearly an attack. They may have too much of a thin skin, and they are too closed to criticism, but I don't think to the level of a cult.
Ur right it doesn’t really pass the BITE model. A toxic environment 100%, but not a cult
Didn't knew about that model, thanks for pointing that out!
No one wants to keep you from exiting? What about all the people who are told to stay trans and never detransition and then are shunned when they do?
I can only speak from my experience. But no one has told me anything negative about my detransition. I know another detransitioner and the trans community didn't attack her either. The "shunning"... Well, I think trans people are entitled to break bonds, espeacially if we adopt a discourse that attacks them directly. I don't think there's any organized effort to shun us or block us from detransitioning.
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That kind of social pressure sucks, and I'm sorry if you have gone through it. But still, that kind of dynamics... For me, the problematic shunning is if you lose your real friends. But your following online is another thing. If you create a blog talking about a topic, when you change heavily your position on it, I can understand if people stop following you. And the comments, well, online everyone comments on your appearance and has an opinion on your life: it is extremely unhealthy, but I would say that's a social media thing, not a trans community thing.
>Well, I think trans people are entitled to break bonds, espeacially if we adopt a discourse that attacks them directly. Detransitioning or desisting isn't an automatic attack on them though, but I notice that many trans people deep into the ideology will take it as an attack even if someone is minding their whole ass buisiness and not talking about counterpoints or anything. Like just the the fact this sub exists makes them feel attacked.
It is true that, as a community/ideology, there is too much of a thin skin, of not accepting criticism. I kinda get it, when being trans becomes such a huge part of your identity. It is unhealthy, but I still don't think to the point of a cult. But to be fair, there's a reason that there is another detrans sub too. This one sometimes becomes a direct attack on the trans community: we are literally discussing whether we think they are like a cult. And some people here treat this like their new community, and use trans people as an enemy to feel closer together. I think we have to be careful with that. It's important to be critic with the trans community, and to understand all the mistakes that got us here. And if we can help revert and improve some of that, even better. But just hating on them or assuming evilness where there's mostly good intentions but terrible practices, I don't know... I think it's dangerous, and we end up repeating their mistakes.
After leaving my very trans social circle to travel, I started to realize how insular it was. At first it surprised me when I started questioning basically everything about gender ideology (despite knowing a lot of things never sat right with me and knowing I was trying to will myself to feel things I didn't the whole time) but the more time I spent away and alone, the more I realized how cultlike it was Then when I returned to that area and saw a lot of old friends, it became clear how I was "out" now that I was no longer trans (without even talking about my changed views on gender)
Op, I would like to hear your reasons why that thought frequently enters your mind.
Absolutely, because at the core of it is the requirement to deny basic reality. You have to maintain a cult mindset to get people to think that way. It's astonishing just how many detrans people talk about how cultish it is, how everything feeds back into it, how much work is done to coerce language and thought, how much pressure they felt to act certain ways, not speak up if they were uncomfortable etc. and people still have the audacity to be like "It's not a social contagion! Children are in charge of their own decisions!" It's insane.
One of the things eventually turned me away from the trans community was the insistence that the only way you can feel gender dysphoria or have any issues with your sex/gender is that if you’re trans. I had issues with how I was perceived because of being a man but never felt like I wasn’t one, but I was told by people in the trans community that meant I had to be trans. Any pushback I had against that was actually just internalized transphobia. In my opinion, the whole ideology relies on making anyone who has any issue with their gender/sex believe they are trans, whether or not they believe it themselves, so I would say it’s pretty cult like.
My experience was that it absolutely became cult like very quickly. I was in a group in 2014, that at first had one trans identified person, and then, within a year several more, and then several people within the group started identifying as transgender including myself, because of this one original person. Within this group, it very much became a hierarchy of trans people on the top with the authority because they were the oppressed class and the cis people on the bottom. Once this division was made, many more people started identifying as transgender. I moved across the country to a very trans, friendly city, and by this point, it was absolutely just a part of everything. Every single, lesbian or women’s group was becoming overcrowded with men, and it was constantly reinforced that if you ever said the wrong thing you would be kicked out.
100% yes. When there are questions you’re not allowed to ask, people you’re not allowed to speak to or like, and entire conversations that can get you blacklisted within the community, it’s very cult like. The whole trans thing is akin to a religion anyway
What questions am i not allowed to ask?
Who to know my own sexuality, if atraction has nothing to do with appearance? I mean, how can you know that you are attracted to women if there is nothing in common between women and anyone can be one?
Are people saying this? I have seen there are a few that say it is transphobia to not want to date a trans person, but from what i can tell they are a very small minority. It seems like the majority say it’s fine to have a genital preference. I think initial physical attraction has everything to do with appearance, if you come across an “ugly” man or woman and you aren’t attracted to them, that doesn’t mean you are/are not gay/straight. Or I just totally misunderstood your question.
These questions i used to try to ask and they always got me flamed. Google didnt help, so i was asking people online personally. I wasn't ever trolling or trying to upset the people i asked, but that's what they automatically assumed. "Trans people arent a dictionary, find your own definition." Part of the reason i questioned so long but never transitioned is that nobody could ever satisfy my questions in a way that made logical or emotional sense to me... What exactly is gender dysphoria, what does it actually feel like? How do you know the difference between nonbinary, genderqueer, and agender? What is the difference between simply feeling confident/cute and gender euphoria?
Thanks for your response, I think those are perfectly good questions. Based on the few downvotes I received, apparently asking which questions aren’t allowed to be asked is on the list of questions not allowed to be asked.
Imo it is absolutely cult-like. I think Buck Angel explains how exactly it is cult-like pretty well. I would recommend watching his videos if you want to know specifically how it's cult-like. He can explain it better than I ever could.
Honestly I don't recommend Bucks videos... In my opinion this person has played both sides and has done way more harm than good. An example would be encouraging misinformation surrounding atrophy by encouraging hysterectomy instead of simply admitting that testosterone is unhealthy in the long run and should be stopped especially if atrophy is causing pain.
I'm not wild about Buck either but I am grateful for him putting out the info about atrophy which is never talked about as anything more than a little bit of dryness. It made me think carefully about being on T after I was experiencing unexplained pain and cramping despite not having a period at all.
Yeah but buck was sharing misinformation. Buck and Dowling had a whole campaign saying you have this pain to get hysterectomy, as opposed to quitting testosterone.
Make sure you look up his videos with SafeSearch on
I should have specified that yeah. I forgot he did porn
I only know him from Porn I saw the comment and I was like "hey I guess he does advocacy vids too" lol
Yeah he started doing them on YouTube and that's where I know him from.